Pod Insights The Clark Howard Podcast 07.18.25 Clark Answers His Critics on Clark Stinks / Buying An EV About this episode Friday - Clark Stinks day! Christa shares Clark Stinks posts with Clark. Submit yours at Clark.com/ClarkStinks. Also, Clark discusses upcoming opportunity in the car market, and answers the question: should you buy an EV now before the tax credit expires on new and used electric vehicles. Clark Stinks: Segments 1 & 2 An EV Purchase: Segment 3 Ask Clark: Segment 4 Mentioned on the show: Clark Howard's Take on the Chase Sapphire Reserve® Changes Aerolopa - Making sense of airline seating plans Clark Howard's Obsession That Could Save You Hundreds 6 Reasons Sam's Club Is Better Than Costco Capital One Agrees To Major Settlement After Accusation of ‘Cheating’ Customers How To Save Money on Utilities This Device Can Help You Avoid an Annoying Car Rental Fee Axios: The next wave of EV adoption What Is Supplemental Insurance and Should You Buy It? 4 Insurance Policies You Actually Need (And 4 You Don't) Is Pet Insurance Worth It? Costco Travel: 5 Things To Know Before You Book Booking a Cruise? Here Are 5 Ways To Do It for Less Clark.com resources Episode transcripts Community. Clark.com / Ask Clark Clark.com daily money newsletter Consumer Action Center Free Helpline: 636-492-5275 Learn more about your ad choices: megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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1:02 Speaker 02 It's my pleasure to welcome you here to The Clark Howard Show, where our mission is to serve you with advice and information that empowers you so you make better financial decisions in your life. You know, it's Friday.
1:15 Speaker 03 It sure is.
1:17 Speaker 02 That means the weekend is almost here, but the fun starts now, because it's time for me to hear how I got it wrong in our weekly Clark Stinks segment. Also, gosh, we're getting just bombarded with questions with what you should do if you're interested in an electric vehicle. Do you buy it now? Do you sit on your hands? What do you do with the new tax law taking away the credits for EVs? And we'll address that later. But now it's time for you to hear me stink it up.
1:56 Speaker 04 I should have never encouraged you to speak.
1:58 Speaker 05 You must think I'm pretty stupid.
1:59 Speaker 06 You should be ashamed of yourself. Well, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're right.
2:07 Speaker 02 What you got Krista?
2:09 Speaker 03 Okay, I'm gonna start with this one. You stink like an unrefrigerated fish stuck in a check bag that was paid for by debit card online. When mentioning credit card point devaluations, you mentioned Chase hasn't started devaluing like Citi did. However, Chase just replaced their flat 1.25 or 1.5 cents per point in the Chase travel portal with a promotional points boost on certain bookings. To be fair, the change is relatively new, but still important to be aware of. Patrick?
2:38 Speaker 02 Patrick, thank you. Alright, so the Chase changes are extreme. What Chase is doing is full carrot and full stick. So with Chase, it used to be pretty simple. You used the cards that had reward points and you got a nice redemption on them. Now what Chase is doing is the regular redemption has become totally ordinary, nothing special. In order to get all the boosts, what I think they call them boosts, you have to book through their portals at their preferred places and it's so much more complicated that it again
3:23 Speaker 02 points out that the simplest answer of all is a card with no annual fee that pays you 2% cash back and doesn't come with a whole slate of rules. The Chase product now devalued to 1% just isn't worth it in most cases.
3:43 Speaker 03 Alright, so many people wrote in about this Clark. You recommended using SeatGuru for someone in business class flight to Fiji. This is no longer good advice. SeatGuru was purchased by TripAdvisor. They've completely ruined the site. It no longer provides the good seating information that it used to. There is however, a very good alternative now, aerolopa.com, A-E-R-O-L-O-P-A.com. Several people suggested this. Has a very complete list of aircraft from all the carriers, major and minor, and this is what I use now. Matt?
4:13 Speaker 02 Matt, thank you. And I, like everyone else, have had a lot of frustration at the deterioration, the quality of SeatGuru. And I don't know what's behind the curtain. Why TripAdvisor thought it was a good idea to mess up SeatGuru? But they have, and I'm going to try Aerolopa and see if that is a worthy replacement.
4:38 Speaker 03 Do not send bonds or other convertible instruments using UPS or FedEx. Sending these things is actually a violation of their tariffs, terms of service, and you cannot insure them. While there is less of a chance of them getting lost than with most USPS services, you have no recourse if they are lost. The only way to send these kinds of instruments without taking on the entire risk is by registered mail, not certified, not just signature required, registered mail. And you must declare the value at the time of mailing, which will also involve an additional charge. Sending them any other way puts the risk entirely on you. I owned a mailing shipping store for 15 years, and I can tell you some horror stories about people who thought UPS or FedEx was the way to send these instruments. Warren.
5:23 Speaker 02 Warren, thank you very much for this post. And it is a problem for a lot of different items, not just talking about savings bonds. Sending them with UPS and FedEx because the tight limits they have on coverage and what you are allowed to insure. A lot of things that could be very valuable to you, you can't cover them past $100, which obviously they're going to be worth more than that. Now, the other thing that we heard prior about this is you can actually convert your paper bonds online into electronic ones. And then you don't have to worry about...
6:01 Speaker 03 But you have to mail them in still. That's what people were upset, because you said you don't have to mail them in, but even if you convert them, you're still required to mail them in. Somebody told us that in a Clark stinks.
6:11 Speaker 02 No, no, I thought it was the opposite, that they said you don't have to if you...
6:15 Speaker 03 No, I think you have to mail them in if you convert them to electronic.
6:19 Speaker 02 What a pain.
6:20 Speaker 03 I know, it really is.
6:22 Speaker 02 That sounds crazy.
6:23 Speaker 03 Okay, well, we'll look it up. If I'm wrong, we'll do a Chris Distinks.
6:27 Speaker 02 Okay.
6:27 Speaker 03 All right. Sorry, but I don't agree with Clark's assessment of the warehouse clubs. Instead of spending time looking for a parking spot and waiting in an hour-long line inside the warehouse club, just take a moment to go through your grocery store's ad and buy the things that are on sale that week. Use a few coupons and submit your receipt to the rebate apps, and then you can even get some items for free after rebate. Factor in the yearly membership fee, and the math just doesn't work out. The cost per ounce of cost per toilet paper sheet is almost always lower if you just wait for the item to go on sale somewhere. You also don't have to put up with these massive-sized containers whose ingredients may expire before you even use all the contents, Maynard.
7:08 Speaker 02 Maynard, thank you. All right, so you're talking about becoming expert at shopping high-low. Most traditional supermarkets use high-low pricing, that if you buy regular items not on sale, you're paying extremely large markups. If you are incredibly disciplined, which it sounds like you are, and you buy only what is on sale, then you're right. That's not normal human nature. The warehouse clubs, by having very tight margins, very tight markups, much lower than a traditional supermarket, for the everyday person, the membership
7:50 Speaker 02 fee, in my opinion, is worth it. And as far as being in forever lines and having trouble parking, it's all about when you go. Ask someone at the store who's been there a good while, you know, if their tag says they've been there 15 years. Ask, when are their lowest crowds? What are the quietest shopping times? And a lot of markets will be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday nights, but it will vary by market. And you ask longtime employees, and they'll tell you. And by the way, if you're a Sam's Club member... All you need to step out of line is your phone with scan and go.
8:31 Speaker 02 I never ever have to stand in line at a Sam's Club. What you doing Costco? When are you going to let me do that?
8:40 Speaker 03 Speaking of Costco, Costco clothes can be half or less of the price of clothes from a traditional department store, but they have a lifespan of about one tenth of the time. This was a simple stink, but a pungent one, Ron.
8:55 Speaker 02 Wait, wait. So you're saying that the clothes at Costco are extremely low quality?
9:01 Speaker 03 That's what he's saying.
9:02 Speaker 02 Wow.
9:04 Speaker 03 All right.
9:04 Speaker 02 That hurts. They may not have style, but I don't know the quality is lower.
9:10 Speaker 03 I can't believe you believe the Capital One Performance Savings Lawsuit has any merit. Where were you when these two accounts were paying such a different amount of interest? Where was your advice to your listeners to pay attention and move money as appropriate? I've had a Performance 360 Savings Account for a long, long time. It started life as an ING account prior to ING being purchased by Capital One. The interest was always competitive. I knew I had the best deal because I pay attention. At no time did Capital One try and make me divert funds to the lower paying account. There was no bait and switch. They did nothing wrong, in my humble opinion. Each month, I compare interest rates paid by Capital One, Fifth Third, and Amex, and will move money if one or more gets uncompetitive.
9:52 Speaker 03 Don't beat up on the banks just because their customers aren't paying attention, JP.
9:56 Speaker 02 So JP, thank you. You know, Capital One did end up paying compensation. And the reason that they had to is what's the smoking gun today? Internal messaging and emails that they were specifically trying to deceive people with two savings accounts with almost identical naming. One paying a competitive, high interest rate. The other paying a pitiful rate of interest. And now they're having to compensate people for that difference.
10:31 Speaker 03 Mr. Howard,
10:32 Speaker 02 Oh, no.
10:33 Speaker 03 you really skunked it up on your recent segment where you mentioned self-driving cars. Please stop perpetuating falsehoods that you may do other things while your Tesla drives itself. All flavors of Tesla driving automation are Level 2 ADAS systems, which means the computer supervises the driver. You may at no time take your undivided attention away from the driving when driving your car. Level 3 ADAS systems are the first level when the human can supervise the computer. The only Level 3 system currently available in the United States for private purchase is from Mercedes. Please keep your attention on the road while driving so that you can keep doing the wonderful things you do. Brian.
11:09 Speaker 02 Brian, thank you, and that is my middle name, Brian. So, my Tesla doesn't let me do anything else anymore. It now has a camera on my eyeballs, and if I look away, I get a warning. I look away a second time, I get a sterner warning. And the third time, they take away self-drive from me for a suspension period that I've never figured out how long it is. So, you were completely right where I used to kind of do other things and let the car drive. Doesn't let me do that anymore.
11:48 Speaker 03 You don't stink. There's a mustiness in the air. Your discussion of electric rates and efficiency was spot on, but was missing a little bit of potentially helpful advice. For Clarksters looking to save on utilities, but they're like me and have already slapped caulk and weather stripping everywhere they can think of, a great place to start with is an energy audit. I recently had one performed in my home, and it unlocks some great data-backed insight on priorities and ROI for where to go next. There's a federal tax credit, at least for now, for the audit, and in a lot of places, it unlocks state and utility-specific incentives as well. Listeners should check with their local electric utility and/or state energy program to find a qualified auditor and incentives. My experience is that it unlocked also $4,000 in federal and state tax rebates
12:33 Speaker 03 that we should hit with 13K projects for our 1920s home, Joe.
12:38 Speaker 02 Joe, thank you. And that is something that I neglect to mention so often is that a lot of utilities offer a very affordable home energy audit. And this is in their self-interest, weirdly enough. You think that the utility company, all they want to do is sell more power? Well, yeah, but they want to sell it on their terms, which is to not have to pay for peakers. That's when at peak times, they're having to pay huge additional amounts for every kilowatt of energy that they buy. So it's in their interest and yours to make
13:17 Speaker 02 your home more energy efficient on extremely hot and extremely cold days. And depending on what's available in your state, that audit could be ultra cheap or free with state incentives for doing improvements. Now, as you mentioned, the federal credits and incentives are going away in just a number of weeks.
13:42 Speaker 03 On a recent show, you said there isn't a rolling toll pass for private passenger vehicles that works nationwide. And while you mentioned uni by ePass, you said it only covers 16 states. That's not quite right. It actually works in 19 states, including the full EZ Pass network, plus Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina. That makes it one of the most widely accepted transponders available to the public, not just fleets. You also didn't mention Best Pass Complete Pass. It's not just for commercial users. They offer a version for private vehicles that works in 20-plus states, combining tolls from multiple systems into a single bill. It even includes toll-by-plate backup. I love the show, but this time, Clark stinks. Park.
14:22 Speaker 02 Hey, Park, thank you. I thought that Best Pass was only for commercial purposes, and you just corrected me on it, which is why I don't ever mention it, because I thought of it as commercial only. And isn't that kind of weird with all the technology we have today, that we're still talking about states having incompatible systems for charging tolls? Really stinks.
14:49 Speaker 03 Yes. You repeatedly say on your podcast that kids quote, "never appreciate their parents." And not only is it untrue, it's unfair generalization. There are some of us kids who actually try really hard to care for sick and ailing parents, or help with finances, or just be there as their parents work through difficult situations. I'm tired of hearing that we're all ungrateful. Please stop saying this, Teresa.
15:13 Speaker 02 Teresa, thank you. So when I say that with a broad brush and a general sweeping statement, I would say that for the most part, what I've said is true. And my late father's expression was, and if you're a long time listener of you, or you've heard me repeat this, that one parent can take care of 10 children, but 10 children can't take care of one parent. And obviously, it's not true in every family, but it's generally the case that parents are better at taking care of kids than kids are at taking care of parents. Not always, but generally the case.
15:54 Speaker 02 So I apologize for making it sound like that was always the case, Teresa. And I appreciate so much how varied these posts were. I mean, think how many different ways I stink. How can, I mean, how come you don't have to put a clothespin on your nose with how bad I smell?
16:14 Speaker 03 Oh, stop it.
16:16 Speaker 02 So I do, I am so grateful because I learned. You break me out of my ways. You break me out of my habits that we all have. And I appreciate, because the only way I can grow is to learn from others. And that's the only way any of us grow is learning from others. And this is a wonderful way for you to help me as we all work together to help each other and empower each other. Coming up ahead, speaking of power, do you want your car powered by electricity? Well, not as many people do as did even just a year ago. And that smells like opportunity to me.
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18:47 Speaker 02 So I was such an early adopter of electric vehicles. I've been driving electric for 14 years. And I love driving an electric car. It's more fun to me than driving a gas engine. But what's beautiful about our market is you buy what you want. And the Congress recently eliminated the tax credits for buying a newer used electric vehicle. It was supposed to go on for another seven years. They're going on only till the end of September. Now, electric vehicles were selling really well in the United States, and that has shifted.
19:32 Speaker 02 Now, a lot of dealers are sitting with unloved electric vehicles, new and used, on their lots. So you know how much you'll hear me say, "When others zig, you zag." That's where opportunity is. When the trends go the other way, that's what spells opportunity. So we've got this window that I wouldn't wait till late September, because then the prices will probably move up instead of down, to get the tax credit, 7,500 on a new electric, 4,000 on a used electric, to get those, and at the same time, buy something that the
20:12 Speaker 02 general marketplace in the United States now doesn't love, many people are contemptuous of. But the irony of this is, one of the big bummers with electric vehicles is how unreliable when you're on a road trip the charging was. And charging has finally gotten a lot more reliable over the last year. There are a lot more charging stations, and a lot of it is just free market, where big convenience store chains are loving having electric vehicle charging, because people plug in their car, or SUV, and they come inside and they spend a lot more money, because
20:57 Speaker 02 they're there longer than somebody just filling up their gas engine vehicle and going.
21:04 Speaker 02 So the marketplace has said, nah, we're not into this. Federal law has said, we hate this. And so now that creates a buying opportunity, especially if you just need a putt putt commuter mobile for affordably getting to and from work, or running the kids around or whatever, and having ultra-long range isn't important. Used electric vehicles are dirt cheap, much cheaper than an equivalent gas engine used vehicle at a time that the average cost of a used vehicle has gone up because of all
21:49 Speaker 02 the stuff going on with tariffs. It's pushed up the cost of used vehicles 11%. So now we're looking at an average used vehicle purchase in the United States, over $30,000, that had dropped down below $27,000 and was headed down, has now completely U-turned, and the prices have gone up. The other thing is that for those of you who drive gas engine cars, every time you see an electric, be happy because the use of gasoline around the world is reducing
22:29 Speaker 02 way below what it would have been because of people who are driving electric vehicles. And in other countries, a much bigger percent of the vehicle fleets are electric than they are here. So the cost of gasoline is going to be much more favorable than it would have been year after year after year because of people buying electric vehicles. So electric vehicles are helpful to people who own them and also helpful to people who don't own them. So next time you're hating on an electric vehicle, remember they're making the gas you buy cheaper. Krista?
23:08 Speaker 03 Okay, Jennifer in Georgia.
23:09 Speaker 02 That's gonna cause some Clark stinks, right?
23:12 Speaker 03 Yeah. Jennifer in Georgia. What is your opinion of supplemental health benefits like accident, hospital indemnity, and in critical illness insurance? Are these worth the money and for who? I didn't add these coverages when I was younger, and now I'm wondering if these are more helpful to have as I approach 50. You often talk about open enrollment in the fall focusing more on health, life, dental, vision, disability insurance, 401k, and HSA. Can you talk more about these supplemental health benefits?
23:39 Speaker 02 Okay, Jennifer, I love your question. And the reason I love it is that employers often will offer all these various narrow line insurance products so that it makes their benefits packages look more robust. But as a general rule, you want general wide coverages. You don't necessarily want a supplemental benefit that pays you more if you're in an accident than if you're just sick or ill or whatever otherwise.
24:18 Speaker 02 Having really good, all the things you mentioned, having good disability insurance, having good health insurance, participating as much as you can in your 401k. If you have eligibility for, through a high deductible health plan to fund an HSA, really fund that HSA. A lot of people put in really pretty small amounts in their HSA. Much more important, you want to cover the widest events possible in your life instead of things that are triggers. You know, you get this if this happened, or that happened, or the other happened, where
25:00 Speaker 02 it's a very specific, narrow kind of event. They appear very inexpensive for the coverage amounts they offer because they're actually seeing the odds that one of those things will happen is much lower than it is with the other things that you know are going to be necessary in your life, like paying for your own retirement.
25:25 Speaker 03 Okay, and speaking of insurance, Matthew in Maine wrote in with this one. What are your thoughts on pet insurance? We got two cats a year ago, and I've heard people say it's irresponsible not to have pet insurance. But to me, it seems like a fairly narrow form of insurance, and the math seems unlikely to work out in my favor. And I also want to say, I was at the checkout at Costco recently, and one of the employees was going around with like a tablet, asking if you were an executive member, and telling everybody about pet insurance, that they offer it now through Costco.
25:54 Speaker 02 Costco's offering pet insurance. Well, if Costco thinks that there's a market for something, they're gonna do it, right?
26:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:02 Speaker 02 So, pet insurance is a frustrating experience for people. Because pet insurance policies seem extremely impressive. But the exclusions that apply, and the breed-specific rules that apply, and what happens with coverages as your pet ages, makes them a tough purchase to get right. Consumer Reports has written a lot about this. It's a hard one to find something that you're gonna say, "Phew, this is great. So glad I have it. I don't have to worry they're gonna exclude this, that, or the other."
26:42 Speaker 02 I find that veterinary medicine practices, vet, veterinarians themselves, know better than anybody what happens when people have different brands and different policies of pet insurance. Which ones tend to look for a reason not to pay, and which ones are easiest for the veterinary medicine practices to work with? I would trust the vet on this if you're gonna buy a policy. Otherwise, take what you would have paid for the policy and save the money. We have an article at Clark.com dealing with this exact question, headlined exactly what fits your question.
27:25 Speaker 02 Is pet insurance worth it? And it's a question mark. We don't say pet insurance is worth it.
27:34 Speaker 03 All right. Jeff in Kansas says, "I have two questions for Clark that happened within days of each other." I got a Venture X card from Capital One. I received it the day they announced the change to access to the lounges. Very disappointed. Now what? Is this still a good card? And question number two. I know how you love Costco. I recently checked with Costco about a Celebrity Cruise that I have booked. The travel agent on the other end told me that I probably have the same price as what the cruise is being offered from Celebrity. She said the only difference would be the cash back cards that Costco gives. Is this correct? I would have assumed, just like with all of my other car rentals, that they would have a cheaper price, but it never went any further than that.
28:14 Speaker 02 Okay. I'll deal with the Venture X second and the Costco thing first. So when you book a cruise through Costco Travel, Costco may have special promotional deals on a specific sailing on a cruise line they're working with. If they don't have one of those, and they'll tell you at Costco Travel, they promote which cruises they have special negotiated deals with. If they don't, what you are getting is just what you were told. You're getting back, if you're an executive member, you get back 2% of the cost of the cruise. If you use the Costco Travel card, the credit card, you're getting another 3% back.
28:58 Speaker 02 So that's five. And then Costco rebates most of their commission from the cruise to you in shop cards. So most often, I think it works out to about 7.7%, something like that, of the cost of the cruise, that they rebate back to you. So you get, in the most perfect circumstance, you're getting about 12.7% back, plus or minus. And if I'm off a little on the decimal point, I apologize. But that is what you're getting. Now, there are a lot of people I know who cruise all the time that don't use Costco
29:42 Speaker 02 Travel for cruises. They use, as very experienced travelers, they use high-volume discounters.
29:49 Speaker 02 There's no customer service or anything like that. They're just selling you the cheapest possible cabin. That's why in the past I've mentioned cruisecompete.com that does like a bidding process for different cruises. And on cruisecritic.com, there's a lot of information about deals available, last minute cruise deals and all the rest. And that brings me to something you don't even know.
30:15 Speaker 03 What?
30:15 Speaker 02 Why did I not get a lot of sleep last night?
30:19 Speaker 03 Why?
30:20 Speaker 02 My son Grant and his best friend Stefan were in a little village in southern Italy. And he calls me pretty late at night last night. And I'm like, Grant, what are you still doing up? Dad, there's a cruise leaving Naples tomorrow. There's one cabin left and they're dumping it. And it's a balcony cabin on an upper deck. And it's a week sailing around Europe for $2,100, all fees included. Should I book it?
30:54 Speaker 03 Wow. I want to be Grant.
30:57 Speaker 02 So, well, it's going to save he and his buddy Stefan money versus what they would have paid for traveling around and hotels and all of that over the next week.
31:11 Speaker 03 So was it $2,100 per person?
31:14 Speaker 02 No, it was just under $2,100 combined.
31:17 Speaker 03 Total.
31:18 Speaker 02 For two, for this big balcony cabin, deck 12.
31:23 Speaker 03 So it's their lodging, all their food, all their transportation, all rolled into one for a week.
31:30 Speaker 02 Exactly. And they get to go to all these cool ports that they get to go to Malta and they get to go to Spain and France. And what other island were they going to? Oh, Sicily.
31:41 Speaker 03 Wow. Good for them. So, seriously, it's good to be Grant. I want to be him.
31:46 Speaker 02 But you know, obviously somebody canceled at the last second. And this popped up as a last minute deal. Bam. And then he wakes me up this morning at 5:30 this morning, our time. Says, Dad, there's no public transportation from this village.
32:09 Speaker 03 Oh, boy.
32:09 Speaker 02 To the cruise. We're going to miss the cruise. What did they have to do?
32:14 Speaker 03 Taxi.
32:15 Speaker 02 You just cussed on the podcast? Yes. Two hundred
32:21 Speaker 03 Oh.
32:22 Speaker 02 Euro later.
32:24 Speaker 03 Ouch, worse than dollars.
32:26 Speaker 02 Two hundred Euro later. They're on the ship right now. First night on the cruise.
32:33 Speaker 03 So what caused you to lose the sleep? The money or the phone calls?
32:36 Speaker 02 He calls me late last night, then wakes me up this morning. My sleep was compressed. My Aura fitness tracker, you know, my Aura health ring, said that I slept four hours, 55 minutes last night. And I'm Mr. Seven Hours of Sleep.
32:55 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah. Same, I gotta get eight.
32:58 Speaker 02 You need eight?
32:59 Speaker 03 Mm hmm.
32:59 Speaker 02 I need seven, seven, I'm fully okay. At four hours, 55 minutes, don't trust anything you hear from me today.
33:08 Speaker 03 Oh, great. Thanks for that.
33:09 Speaker 02 No, how do you feel I did?
33:11 Speaker 03 I think you've been great. You've done awesome.
33:14 Speaker 02 But you know what's great? It's the weekend.
33:17 Speaker 03 Yep.
33:18 Speaker 02 So now I get to catch up on all of that sleep, right?
33:22 Speaker 03 That's right.
33:24 Speaker 02 I hope you have a great weekend and know what we're all about. You, saving more, spending less, and avoid getting ripped off when you booked that last minute cruise.
33:42 Speaker 00 Are you ever shopping online and suddenly a discount that helps you save pops up? It makes your day, sometimes even your week. Want that feeling month after month? Well, new customers who save by switching their home and auto insurance to Progressive, save hundreds. Cue your happy dance. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers not available in all states.
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