Pod Insights Civics 101 What happens when enough states want to change the Constitution? About this episode Our Constitution provides for its own changes -- the framers knew that, while they worked hard, the law of the land was neither perfect nor should it be entirely immutable. So they included Article V, which allows either Congress OR the states to amend the Constitution if enough people agree. We've never had a constitutional convention of the states before, but that doesn't mean we won't. There's currently a movement trying to make it happen -- we dig into the why and how of this totally legal but very difficult path to change.
CLICK HERE: Visit our website to see all of our episodes, donate to the podcast, sign up for our newsletter, get free educational materials, and more!
To see Civics 101 in book form, check out A User's Guide to Democracy: How America Works by Hannah McCarthy and Nick Capodice, featuring illustrations by Tom Toro.
Check out our other weekly NHPR podcast, Outside/In - we think you'll love it!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcript 5,111 words · 16 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.
0:29 Speaker 01 The best part of waking up? A full cup of Folgers coffee and music on full blast.
0:56 Speaker 01 Shop Folgers instant coffee and more at your nearest retailer.
1:01 Speaker 02 This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.
1:29 Hannah McCarthy? Nick, can you think of something in the Constitution that just seems, I don't know, kind of irrelevant?
1:37 Nick Capodice? I am so glad we're finally doing an episode about this.
1:40 Hannah McCarthy? Oh, good.
1:41 Nick Capodice? Look, I know it was super important to the framers.
1:44 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, and honestly, with good reason.
1:46 Nick Capodice? Absolutely.
1:47 Hannah McCarthy? Think about what they had just been through, right?
1:49 Nick Capodice? I hear you, Hannah. And, you know, just because it's never been applied doesn't mean we won't need it in the future.
1:56 Hannah McCarthy? Point of this episode.
1:57 Nick Capodice? Wait, do you know something I don't know?
1:59 Hannah McCarthy? I think maybe I know a lot of somethings that you don't know.
2:02 Nick Capodice? That's fair. I just feel like I would know if this were imminent.
2:07 Hannah McCarthy? Now, I'm not saying that it's going to happen tomorrow or anything, but there are people who are trying very hard to make it happen.
2:15 Nick Capodice? I never thought I'd see the day.
2:17 Hannah McCarthy? But we don't even know how it would work, Nick.
2:19 Nick Capodice? Well, I think it's pretty straightforward, actually. But what is that law even going to say? That I have to read them a bedtime story, make them pancakes in the morning?
2:28 Hannah McCarthy? Wait a minute. What?
2:30 Nick Capodice? But I guess I don't have a choice if we're not in peacetime and Congress passes a law.
2:35 Hannah McCarthy? Oh, no, no, no. Okay, um, we are not making an episode about the Third Amendment.
2:42 Nick Capodice? Oh, we're not talking about the quartering of soldiers?
2:47 Hannah McCarthy? Why would we be talking about that?
2:49 Nick Capodice? Because it's quirky and fun?
2:51 Hannah McCarthy? I actually think we could make a whole episode about why there is an amendment prohibiting the quartering of soldiers during peacetime, and it is not as silly as you think it is. But no, Nick, we're talking about the other thing in the Constitution that has not happened since it was ratified.
3:07 Nick Capodice? The other thing? Get out of town!
3:10 Hannah McCarthy? I will not.
3:11 Nick Capodice? And are you talking about what I think you're talking about? The other way to ratify the Constitution?
3:18 Hannah McCarthy? The very one.
3:19 Nick Capodice? As in, the states get together and do it themselves? Something that has not come to pass in 250 years?
3:26 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, well, some people are trying to change that. This is Civics 101. I'm Hannah McCarthy.
3:30 Nick Capodice? I'm Nikita Diche.
3:31 Hannah McCarthy? And today, we are talking about a movement aimed at accomplishing an entirely constitutional goal: changing that Constitution.
3:39 Speaker 05 Disillusion with the federal government is nothing new, but in some corners, it seems to have reached a crescendo.
3:45 Speaker 06 It's not just about fiscal responsibility. Other people want term limits, some people want campaign finance, they want different issues.
3:51 Speaker 07 They want delegates from the states to be able to propose changes in term limits for federal officials and members of Congress.
3:58 Speaker 08 State lawmakers this afternoon will be discussing whether to call for a constitutional convention.
4:03 Speaker 05 Supporters and opponents say it's closer than you may think to actually happening.
4:13 Nick Capodice? All right, Hannah, first things first, we have got to tell people what this thing is. There are two ways to amend the Constitution according to the Constitution.
4:23 Hannah McCarthy? That is right. Article 5. It tells us that the Constitution can be changed, and it tells us how it works. An amendment must be proposed and that amendment must be ratified.
4:35 Nick Capodice? Ratification, meaning the amendment has to be approved. It has to be consented to.
4:40 Hannah McCarthy? And once it is, it becomes law of the land.
4:43 Nick Capodice? Yeah, and the only way this has ever happened in the past is that 2/3 of both the House and the Senate vote for an amendment. Now, anyone can propose it, but you need that 2/3's majority in both houses.
4:56 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, which is not easy. It's super time consuming and laborious. Tens of thousands of amendments have been proposed. 27 have been passed. The first 10 are the Bill of Rights. The other 17 took a lot of effort.
5:11 Nick Capodice? The 26th passed in 100 days, though, lowering the voting age to 18 during the Vietnam War.
5:17 Hannah McCarthy? War has a way of speeding things up.
5:19 Nick Capodice? Yep. All right, so Congress proposes and votes on an amendment, and then that amendment is sent to the 50 states for ratification.
5:28 Hannah McCarthy? And 3/4 of the states have to approve it, which, depending on the situation, may be even more difficult than getting that super majority in Congress.
5:36 Nick Capodice? And Hannah, the president doesn't get a say here, right? Like, at least not an official one. It's not their decision.
5:42 Hannah McCarthy? Right, this is not your everyday law. The president cannot veto it. This is the Constitution. The most any president has done is be a witness and signatory to a certification of an amendment. That's the step in the process where the national archivist basically says, yep, this is real. We got an amendment, everybody.
6:00 Nick Capodice? And I feel we can't stress this enough to everybody, Hannah. This is hard, really, really hard. Getting a bunch of people to agree to change the law of the land is difficult.
6:11 Hannah McCarthy? It is so hard. And Nick, all the Constitution tells us is that an amendment can be proposed by Congress or it can be proposed by the states. And then it tells us what fraction of Congress and the states need to approve it. Beyond that, which is just so like the Constitution, we have to figure it out for ourselves.
6:31 Nick Capodice? The Constitution loves to be both definitive and super vague.
6:35 Hannah McCarthy? Amelia Bedelia would have a field day. But anyway, that brings me to why we have never changed the Constitution using the other method, precisely and vaguely, outlined by the Constitution. It is both really, really difficult and we don't know how it would work.
6:53 Hannah McCarthy? So here's the other amendment option. The Constitution tells us that 2/3 of states have to essentially apply for a constitutional convention. At least 34 out of 50 have to ask Congress to please call that convention, and then a convention happens, and then 38 states have to ratify whatever amendment or amendments come out of that convention.
7:18 Nick Capodice? Well, you skipped the part in the middle, Hannah, where a convention happens. So what's a convention?
7:23 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, what is a convention? Constitution doesn't tell us.
7:26 Nick Capodice? But where does it happen?
7:27 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, where does it happen?
7:29 Nick Capodice? What are the rules?
7:30 Hannah McCarthy? It could be Thunderdome in there, for all we know.
7:33 Nick Capodice? And who gets to go? It's the states, but like, who from those states? And who gets to decide that?
7:41 Hannah McCarthy? And these are just the questions. We haven't even gotten to the concerns yet.
7:44 Nick Capodice? Oh, yeah, it makes sense that there would be some concerns.
7:48 Hannah McCarthy? And we're gonna mul those over after the break.
7:50 Nick Capodice? But before that break, if you're looking for something to make our Constitution, our history, and our future seem just a little less chaotic, I have a book recommendation for you. And while, yes, I helped to write it, I also turned to it in times of trouble. It's called A User's Guide to Democracy: How America Works. You get it wherever books are sold. Haven't you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing. There are companies called data brokers, whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to
8:35 Nick Capodice? people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over, so your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once, and they keep working in the background. You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics, or use the code CIVICS at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.
9:16 Speaker 09 Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.
9:45 Speaker 01 The best part of waking up? A full cup of Folgers coffee and music on full blast.
10:11 Speaker 01 Shop Folgers K-Cup Pods and more at your nearest retailer.
10:18 Hannah McCarthy? We're back. We're talking about the other white meat, amending the Constitution by way of the states.
10:23 Nick Capodice? And just before the break, Hannah, you said that there were concerns.
10:27 Hannah McCarthy? Oh, there are concerns. But to make them a little more tangible, let's talk about why we're talking about this now. So back in the 1970s, we had a lot going on, and that included Ronald Reagan and Milton Friedman.
10:40 Nick Capodice? Wow, that was quite a transition there, Hannah.
10:43 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, well, those two names set the stage pretty well. What do you think when you hear Reagan and Friedman?
10:50 Nick Capodice? When I think of Milton Friedman, I think of him explaining how a pencil is not made by any one person. It's just one of my favorite videos. I like watching Milton Friedman talk about a pencil. And Reagan was the president who famously corralled government. I think the expression used by Grover Norquist was, "So small you could drown it in a bathtub." That's what I think of those two people.
11:10 Hannah McCarthy? And who is Milton Friedman, Nick?
11:12 Nick Capodice? Oh, great question. To the best of my understanding, Milton Friedman was a famous economist, and Reagan, you know, people know who Reagan was, he was a president who liked Milton Friedman's way of thinking. So I hear those names, and I think free market capitalism and Reaganomics and big tax cuts, small government.
11:31 Hannah McCarthy? So basically, the big and very popular among certain people theory is that the market will regulate itself, and so it does not need regulations from the government. Prices of things should be established by supply and demand and not by rules. Now, people who like this theory say that it is about economic growth and personal freedom. People who do not like this idea say it leads to inequity and exploitation.
11:54 Nick Capodice? What does any of this have to do with the amendments?
11:56 Hannah McCarthy? I'm getting there. In the 1970s, there was this big fiscal conservative push to pass what was called the Balanced Budget Amendment in Congress.
12:07 Nick Capodice? Well, that sounds reasonable.
12:09 Hannah McCarthy? It was meant to. This is probably a good time to remind everyone that politics is about good branding and conservatives tend to be great branders.
12:16 Nick Capodice? Everyone, listen to our episode on the frame wars to learn more about that.
12:20 Hannah McCarthy? You really should do that. All right, so the Balanced Budget Amendment would require the government to have a balanced budget every single year.
12:28 Nick Capodice? Which is something I assume we do not have.
12:30 Hannah McCarthy? We do not. We have had a budget deficit almost every year since 1970, meaning nearly every year the government has spent more money than it has made.
12:40 Nick Capodice? So if we had an amendment requiring the budget to be balanced every year, that would mean cutting a lot of spending.
12:47 Hannah McCarthy? Or raising taxes, or both. Actually, Milton Friedman wrote a whole thing for the Wall Street Journal back in 95 saying, hey, the Balanced Budget Amendment has got to limit taxes in addition to the other stuff. His whole thing was the problem is government spending, not how much money it receives in taxes. Anyway, even though Reagan was all for it.
13:08 Speaker 10 So I asked the Congress to pass as soon as possible a constitutional amendment requiring that it balance the federal budget.
13:16 Hannah McCarthy? The Balanced Budget Amendment went nowhere in Congress.
13:22 Hannah McCarthy? Which brings us to the last time. There was a major call for a constitutional convention.
13:28 Nick Capodice? Okay, so that is why we're talking about this. When this amendment didn't get through Congress, the states took on the mantle.
13:38 Hannah McCarthy? And 26 of those states passed resolutions calling for a constitutional convention, mostly so that they could hammer out this balanced budget amendment.
13:46 Nick Capodice? 26 is not 34.
13:49 Hannah McCarthy? It sure is not. Many people at that time had concerns. There was a fear of a, quote, "runaway convention." Article 5 doesn't put any limits on how many amendments can show up at a convention, and it only makes three exceptions for the kind of amendments that can be passed.
14:05 Nick Capodice? And what are those exceptions?
14:06 Hannah McCarthy? Well, two of them pertain to the slave trade and to taxes and were only relevant until 1808. The last one, however, is that a state cannot be deprived of equal suffrage in the Senate without its consent.
14:19 Nick Capodice? Okay, so all states have two senators, and basically, they can't pass an amendment saying that Idaho only has one senator unless Idaho agrees.
14:30 Hannah McCarthy? Right. But the point here is there are hardly any rules for an Article 5 convention. There is technically nothing stopping a total overhaul of the Constitution at one of these things. The concern was that a convention might start with a balanced budget and end with a whole new body of laws for the United States.
14:48 Nick Capodice? It sounds like utter chaos.
14:50 Hannah McCarthy? Which is why some states at the time ended up withdrawing their applications for a convention. And eventually, the movement went pretty dark.
15:00 Nick Capodice? Until?
15:01 Hannah McCarthy? Until 2014. And that's where we'll pick up after a quick break.
15:13 Nick Capodice? Have any of you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing. There are companies called data brokers, whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers. Sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over. So your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once and they keep working in the background.
15:58 Nick Capodice? You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code civics at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.
16:19 Speaker 09 Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.
16:48 Speaker 01 The best part of waking up? A full cup of Folgers coffee and music on full blast.
17:15 Speaker 01 Shop Folgers K-Cup Pods and more at your nearest retailer.
17:22 Nick Capodice? We're back. We're talking about the mysterious and never before seen creature told of in Article 5 of our Constitution, the other way to amend the law of the land by way of the states. And Hannah, you just suggested that an Article 5 Convention movement kicked back up again in 2014?
17:39 Hannah McCarthy? Sure did. That is when a group called the Citizens for Self-Governance founded the Convention of States Foundation. Their pitch? The government is spending too much. Let's get together and stop it.
17:51 Nick Capodice? By way of a convention.
17:52 Hannah McCarthy? By way of a convention. As of the most recent report, 19 states have passed a resolution calling for a convention. The Convention of States Project, or COS as we're going to call it, says this convention would only discuss amendments to, quote, "limit the power and jurisdiction of the federal government, impose fiscal restraints, and place term limits on federal officials."
18:15 Nick Capodice? So is that a rule?
18:17 Hannah McCarthy? Well, that's what they say would happen. The COS website says, basically, they're going to be limited to whatever the states put in their application when they asked Congress for a convention. They regularly reference an Article 5 handbook, and this is important, written by a former law professor named Robert Nadelson. You ever heard of this guy?
18:36 Nick Capodice? No, I have not.
18:37 Hannah McCarthy? He has done a lot of writing on the original meaning of things, including the Constitution.
18:42 Nick Capodice? Hey, but this handbook and all the stuff the COS website says, those aren't laws or regulations, right?
18:49 Hannah McCarthy? The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules.
18:53 Nick Capodice? And if we can get through like one year without quoting The Pirates of Caribbean, I'm going to be pretty shocked.
18:58 Hannah McCarthy? The COS calls itself the largest grassroots movement in America. Its leaders are Mark Meckler, a major Tea Party figure.
19:05 Nick Capodice? Uh, the Tea Party, by the way, being the conservative political movement that got going around 2009.
19:10 Hannah McCarthy? Right, and Meckler has, I feel I should mention, made controversial statements, um, calling Black Lives Matter evil and saying that being transgender is a mental illness. Rick Santorum is also part of the leadership.
19:22 Nick Capodice? Okay, Rick Santorum, conservative Republican politician, former senator, presidential candidate, fired by CNN for making dismissive comments about Native Americans.
19:33 Hannah McCarthy? The very same. Uh, and Michael Ferris.
19:36 Nick Capodice? I don't know Michael Ferris. Who's Michael Ferris?
19:38 Hannah McCarthy? He is a prominent religious conservative lawyer, chief executive of a group called Alliance Defending Freedom, which works on opposing abortion and opposing LGBTQ rights.
19:47 Nick Capodice? Okay. So I have to ask, does the Convention of States project label itself as a conservative movement?
19:56 Hannah McCarthy? No, it very much labels itself a nonpartisan effort.
20:00 Nick Capodice? And as a grassroots organization, right?
20:03 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, it calls itself a grassroots organization.
20:06 Nick Capodice? What makes something grassroots, Hannah?
20:08 Hannah McCarthy? Well, I mean, the word is used to mean a movement that originates with a community, right, with citizens at the public level. It's self-organized, local-level action. Like, it suggests something that grows from the ground up.
20:21 Nick Capodice? As opposed to other things that grow the other way. But like, from the grass, right? From roots.
20:26 Hannah McCarthy? Yes. COS, in its own words, calls itself "an organization of more than 5 million active grassroots volunteers representing every state legislative district in the nation, focusing on restoring a culture of self-governance in America." It also says it is "funded by thousands of everyday patriots." Now, I can tell you that even though the Convention of States is not required to disclose its funders, there is a 2019 financial report that states that just two donors accounted for about 36% of its funding.
21:02 Nick Capodice? Wow.
21:03 Hannah McCarthy? So, you know, take that as you will.
21:04 Nick Capodice? All right. Let me ask you this, then. You said the last time an Article V Convention gained any real momentum, there were a lot of people who were worried it would go off the rails.
21:14 Hannah McCarthy? I did.
21:15 Nick Capodice? And you also said that COS claims that this convention would be limited. It would have guardrails.
21:23 Hannah McCarthy? That is what they say, yes.
21:25 Nick Capodice? But we know that the Constitution itself does not provide much in the way of guardrails.
21:31 Hannah McCarthy? We do. There is a COS Article V Convention of States pocket guide, however.
21:37 Nick Capodice? Do they know something we don't?
21:39 Hannah McCarthy? So the guide is trying to answer questions, address concerns. It says that the convention cannot throw out the Constitution because it receives its authority from the Constitution.
21:51 Nick Capodice? What do they mean by "throw out the Constitution"?
21:53 Hannah McCarthy? They do not say.
21:54 Nick Capodice? Does that mean they won't propose getting rid of existing amendments?
21:59 Hannah McCarthy? They do not say. The guide says a Convention of States can only propose amendments that fit within the topic of the application adopted by the state legislatures.
22:09 Nick Capodice? Is that true?
22:11 Hannah McCarthy? Well, some states have passed codes, like state codes, that require their delegates, those are people who would go to the convention. But recently, states have started using the word commissioners. And I cannot tell you why they started using a different vocab word. Anyway, these codes require their delegates or commissioners to stick to the stuff on the application that the state sent to Congress.
22:32 Nick Capodice? And this time around, those applications are about term limits, fiscal restraints, and limiting the power of the federal government.
22:40 Hannah McCarthy? Right.
22:41 Nick Capodice? Do they specify how they're gonna try to limit the power of the federal government?
22:47 Hannah McCarthy? No. But either way, the how it works that the Convention of States Pocket Guide provides is not in the Constitution. I know we keep saying that, but this is not in the Constitution. There are no rules in the Constitution. There is no official how it works. Okay, last thing, and this is a big point of contention for opponents of this movement. This guide says, "According to historical precedent, each state has one vote at the convention."
23:18 Nick Capodice? Wait, Hannah, we have never had one of these before. There is no historical precedent.
23:27 Hannah McCarthy? Okay, remember how I told you that COS gets a lot of their ideas from a former law professor, a guy named Robert Nadelson?
23:35 Nick Capodice? I do. You told me to remember that name, too.
23:37 Hannah McCarthy? He says he knows the rules of an Article V convention because they are the same as the rules for certain 18th century colonial and state gatherings. And he's the one who says there is a one-state, one-vote rule.
23:55 Nick Capodice? But to be clear, the framers did not say the rules for an Article V convention are the same as the rules for the other stuff we've done.
24:02 Hannah McCarthy? They did not say that.
24:03 Nick Capodice? And correct me if I'm wrong here, Hannah, the Articles of Confederation did do the one-state, one-vote thing.
24:09 Hannah McCarthy? They did do that.
24:10 Nick Capodice? Yeah, and the Articles of Confederation were a disaster.
24:14 Hannah McCarthy? So bad the framers had to stage a coup to change them.
24:17 Nick Capodice? And when they wrote the new law of the land, they came up with proportional representation, so that larger states with more people and more ideas would have more people representing the more ideas in Congress.
24:30 Hannah McCarthy? That one came from James Madison, mostly, from the Virginia Plan.
24:33 Nick Capodice? And didn't Madison, though, also have something to do with Article V?
24:36 Hannah McCarthy? Yes, and Madison actually ends up talking about it as a safeguard in the Federalist Papers. But, OK, so then I read this letter that he wrote. And this is when there are people who are suggesting that perhaps there should be another convention to revise the Constitution. And here is what Madison says. Another convention would, quote, "naturally consider itself as having greater latitude than Congress." He says it would, quote, "give greater agitation to the public mind." He says that people who would want to be delegates of this convention would probably be, quote, "the most violent partisans on both sides," that it would probably consist
25:16 Hannah McCarthy? of, quote, "the most heterogeneous characters," that it would contain individuals of, quote, "insidious views." And here is the last one, quote, "might have a dangerous opportunity of sapping the very foundations of the fabric. Under all these circumstances, it seems scarcely to be presumable that the deliberations of the body could be conducted in harmony or terminate in the general good."
25:42 Nick Capodice? Wow. He didn't want it to happen. So in other words, James Madison was super, super duper worried about one of these things actually happening.
25:56 Hannah McCarthy? Yep.
25:57 Nick Capodice? All right, got it.
26:09 Nick Capodice? All right. I think I have a pretty decent grasp of what the plan is here, although I'm still not super sure how it would all work. So do we have any other clues, any other plans that tell us what COS wants to do at a convention like this?
26:25 Hannah McCarthy? Fortunately for you, they've been practicing.
26:29 Nick Capodice? Practicing?
26:30 Hannah McCarthy? If you're going to do something that nobody has ever done before, you might want to run a few, like, simulations. And the Convention of States Project, COS, has held two. The most recent one happened in 2023. It was attended by legislators, academics, and business people from 49 states. Most of them, but not all, were Republicans. And they agreed on six amendments.
26:51 Nick Capodice? And just to be clear, because this was not the real deal, this was not a real constitutional convention, these amendments were also not the real deal.
27:00 Hannah McCarthy? Yes, but I'm going to share them with you anyway because you want to know what would go on there.
27:04 Nick Capodice? I do.
27:04 Hannah McCarthy? Okay.
27:08 Hannah McCarthy? Term limits for Congress.
27:09 Nick Capodice? That's pretty straightforward.
27:11 Hannah McCarthy? Limiting the Supreme Court to nine seats.
27:14 Nick Capodice? Hmm, which it has.
27:17 Hannah McCarthy? It does, but people dissatisfied with the actions of the Supreme Court often propose raising that number.
27:23 Nick Capodice? They do.
27:24 Hannah McCarthy? Okay, also granting all states standing in court to challenge the constitutionality of any action of the executive branch or of Congress.
27:33 Nick Capodice? Right, standing is important because that's how you actually get something to court.
27:37 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, normally you have to prove that you have suffered a real injury because of what someone or something did. This would skirt that whole thing. Okay, next, granting state legislators the authority to, quote, "abrogate any action of Congress, President, or administrative agencies of the United States."
27:56 Nick Capodice? Abrogate, so that's like repeal or ignore. Any action of federal lawmakers, the President or the agency.
28:05 Hannah McCarthy? Yes. They also came up with a version of the balanced budget amendment, the one we talked about earlier, a restriction of Congress's Commerce Clause power, and a restriction of the federal government's claim to land.
28:18 Nick Capodice? All right, those are some strong and broad fake amendments, Hannah.
28:22 Hannah McCarthy? They sure appear to be.
28:23 Nick Capodice? They give a lot of power to the states.
28:25 Hannah McCarthy? Oh, yeah. By the way, you can watch the nearly nine-hour video of this simulated convention on YouTube.
28:31 Nick Capodice? Did you watch it? Did you like see what happened?
28:34 Hannah McCarthy? I skipped around. It's long, but it seemed pretty calm. Then again, it was mostly legislators and activists from one party, the Republican Party.
28:44 Nick Capodice? All right, Hannah, so you know what I am wondering, and probably everybody out there listening is wondering too. How likely is it that this is going to actually happen? You said earlier that 19 states have sent a COS-style application to Congress?
28:59 Hannah McCarthy? Yes.
29:00 Nick Capodice? And the Constitution requires 2/3 of states to ask for one. So they're 15 states shy.
29:07 Hannah McCarthy? And states can also rescind their applications, you know, though some people involved with C O S claim that those applications and older applications from past Article 5 attempts should count to the total.
29:19 Nick Capodice? But let's say they get those last 15 states. If they stick with the one state, one vote idea in a country where one party controls more states than another party.
29:30 Hannah McCarthy? And we do live in that country. Currently, 56% of legislatures are Republican-controlled.
29:35 Nick Capodice? Then that might take something that's really hard to do, AKA amending the Constitution, and make it a little less hard.
29:42 Hannah McCarthy? I think that might be the idea.
29:44 Nick Capodice? So now we wait to see if something completely unprecedented actually comes to pass.
29:51 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, unprecedented. Where have I heard that one before lately?
29:54 Nick Capodice? We're hearing this was an unexpected turn of events and an unprecedented one as well.
29:59 Speaker 11 It is an unprecedented move. Democrats and Republicans using an unprecedented maneuver. Unprecedented action.
30:04 Speaker 12 Action today is unsettling and unprecedented.
30:08 Speaker 11 Unprecedented situation.
30:09 Speaker 13 Unprecedented demands. Again, this is unprecedented.
30:22 Hannah McCarthy? This episode was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy, with Nick Capodice. Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer. Marina Hanke is our producer. Music in this episode comes from Epidemic Sound. If you want more Civics 101, and there is a lot more Civics 101, you can find it all at our website, civics101podcast.org. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.
30:58 Speaker 14 Did you know that if your spouse goes missing and you don't tell anyone, that's not necessarily a crime? That surprising fact is at the heart of the brand new season of Bear Brook, the critically acclaimed true crime podcast from New Hampshire Public Radio. I'm your host, Jason Moon. In this season, Bear Brook investigates another New Hampshire mystery. A Christmas tree farmer with dementia vanishes. His wife never reports him missing. Can he still be found? Don't miss it. Follow Bear Brook wherever you get your podcasts.
31:28 Speaker 09 Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.
31:59 Speaker 15 What's the secret to being a great host this season? Keeping things deliciously simple, like mixing Simply Cranberry into a festive drink as guests arrive, or serving up a warm mug of Simply Apple on a chilly night. That means less time behind the scenes and more time in the moment with everyone. Crafted with real fruit, Simply juices and fruit drinks make any holiday drink effortless, inviting, and completely delicious. Simply, say yes to simple.
Previous How can the president take over a city's police department? Next Obergefell v Hodges, 2015 Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated