Pod Insights Civics 101 The Civic Role of Religious Leaders About this episode Why do religious leaders step out from behind the pulpit and take to the streets? What does it mean to practice what you preach? As faith groups across the nation stand alongside protestors and assert their beliefs, we talk to four religious leaders about how and why they take action.
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Transcript 5,148 words · 23 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:02 Hannah McCarthy? Nick.
0:03 Nick Capodice? Hannah.
0:04 Hannah McCarthy? Civics 101.
0:07 Hannah McCarthy? All right, Nick, so we have talked before on this show about the separation of church and state. What exactly that means? And we have an episode on it, and maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means. And what it really means has wished and washed. And even if you say, you gotta keep 'em separated.
0:29 Speaker 02 And you know, religion's back now hotter than ever before. I mean, they have to tell.
0:33 Speaker 03 Many of the delegates here said their vote is based on Jewish values, especially the teaching that Jews are supposed to help prepare the world to Kuna Lom.
0:41 Speaker 04 Woven into the US political conversation is another discussion about religion and its role in the country. Meanwhile, some have mobilized around what GOP leaders have labeled an invasion at the southern border. I asked Onishi about a protest convoy calling itself God's Army.
0:57 Speaker 05 In America, we don't worship government. We worship God.
1:06 Nick Capodice? Yeah, politicians most certainly do not tend to keep 'em separated, Hannah.
1:12 Hannah McCarthy? Yeah, but today, I don't want to look at how politicians have brought faith or religion into their rhetoric. I want to ask faith leaders how they approach politics. Or, I guess, what some might call politics, and they might call, you know, right and wrong.
1:33 Speaker 06 KETK's Mai Owens is here to show us how some are urging their congregations to take a stand in a peaceful way.
1:40 Speaker 07 More than a dozen faith leaders from across the state gathered today to express their concerns with the direction of the State House.
1:46 Speaker 08 Back here at home, faith leaders gathered with community members outside of Trump Tower this morning to protest property tax hikes.
1:53 Speaker 09 Protesters have been gathering at the Whipple Federal Building in Minneapolis for weeks. Federal agents use it as their headquarters. Today, they were joined by dozens of clergy members.
2:19 Speaker 10 Into the Wild. The Cartier Panther encounters a shimmering crocodile, a lonely lovebird, a breathless zebra, and a restless tiger.
2:33 Speaker 03 Welcome. 250th Hunger Games.
2:35 Speaker 11 Witness the beginning of the revolution.
2:37 Speaker 03 Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.
2:40 Speaker 11 Film for IMAX.
2:41 Speaker 03 Make them remember you.
2:44 Speaker 11 The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Weeping, November 20th. Made in PG-13. Now streaming on Paramount+.
2:51 Speaker 12 I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for that.
2:59 Speaker 11 He's back.
3:00 Speaker 12 I'm older. I'm wiser.
3:03 Speaker 11 And sharper than ever.
3:05 Speaker 12 Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.
3:12 Speaker 11 Dexter Resurrection. New season now streaming on the Paramount+ Premium Plan.
3:25 Nick Capodice? All right, Hannah. So we know that religion and politics are the twain that meet a whole lot in the United States. And you want to know what the religion side has to say?
3:35 Hannah McCarthy? Well, specifically, I want to know what faith leaders have to say about their role in civic life, in activism, in vouching for issues that are politicized. When and why do they decide to speak up beyond the pulpit? Now, I did reach out to dozens of faith and religious groups and leaders, and I get the impression that a lot of people are quite busy. So today, we are hearing from one Jewish and three Episcopalian faith leaders.
4:08 Speaker 13 It's great to be with you. I'm Bishop Rob Hirschfeld. I'm the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire.
4:15 Speaker 14 I am Rabbi Abby Weber. I am a rabbi in Center City, Philadelphia.
4:19 Speaker 15 My name is Jason Wells. It's fine to be addressed as Reverend Jason Wells.
4:23 Speaker 16 These are Michael Curry. I've been called a lot of names, other names, but I don't think...
4:30 Nick Capodice? And Hannah, I know that religious leaders have gotten involved in politicized issues maybe always worldwide since the beginning?
4:39 Hannah McCarthy? Well, yeah, I think about it like this. People have political beliefs, people have religious beliefs. The things you believe are true, the things you believe are right, the things you believe are wrong. These beliefs lead to a whole lot of words and even sometimes action. Now, I'm not conflating spiritual or religious belief and political belief, but I do think they often rhyme. And there is a long history in this country of faith leaders stepping out from behind the pulpit and taking to the streets, showing very publicly that they perceive a wrong
5:22 Hannah McCarthy? and they stand opposed to it, or they perceive a right and they stand for it. And of course, it is continuing today.
5:32 Speaker 17 It is a call for God to establish His order in the chaos that has been created by this administration right here in our city. Allah declares that every human being, regardless of race, immigration, or social status, is honored.
5:50 Speaker 18 Hearing the cries of the world and responding like our beloved Bodhisattva Kuan Yin, we will take up the call of nonviolent direct action, marching.
5:58 Speaker 19 We pray that living according to the truth of God's love, we will all find the freedom and abundant life that God promises to all God's children, which is our nation's promise.
6:16 Hannah McCarthy? So today I've got a dispatch. It's an audio postcard from faith leaders who have taken action in their communities. Now, Nick, I am far better versed in the ways of secular civic action than I am in faith-based action. I don't know about you.
6:31 Nick Capodice? Hannah, I think you know that I'm in the exact same boat as you on this one.
6:35 Hannah McCarthy? Right, so I'm gonna let these faith leaders speak for themselves for the most part today. I asked them all, in various ways, when and why they take action in their communities beyond their places of worship. What drives them? What helps them to make that choice?
6:55 Speaker 16 Do you want the cowardly answer or the courageous one?
7:01 Speaker 16 The former is the more accurate one, to be honest. I mean, you go through all the emotions, at least I do. I mean, you go through every conceivable emotion. And you also try to figure out, is there another way to get to the same end without creating a real problem that's gonna make life difficult for me? You know, you go through all of that kind of stuff. I mean, even Jesus said, count the cost. You know, before you jump in, you count the cost. He didn't say, don't necessarily do it, but he said, count the cost. So you kind of do, you do a calculus.
7:32 Speaker 15 We want to be loud and right. We don't want to be loud and wrong. If we're gonna speak up and use our voice, we want to make sure there is an injustice, that we understand the injustice before we speak up.
7:43 Speaker 16 Or if you're in the Ignatian tradition of Saint Ignatius, who said, you know, you kind of count the pluses and the minuses and think through what's being called for and pray God to help you do what is gonna be the right thing and to give me the courage and the strength and the wisdom and the abilities to stay loving through everything.
8:06 Speaker 13 Sometimes it means standing aside those who are discounted, rejected, on the left or the right. That's where I think a religious leader's real hard place is. I think it's easier for me always to align myself with one side or the other. It's much harder and scandalous to try to maintain relationships with those who have different ideas about what is best for the nation, for the community, for the church.
8:34 Speaker 14 I really struggled with the question of whether, as a rabbi, I would primarily be serving my own congregation. And whether those would be the most vulnerable people in my community, or if I would primarily be serving people who kind of didn't need my help, right, in the sense of they weren't the people who were poorest, or who were struggling the most, or who really needed support in society. I want to make clear that I think everybody is deserving of support in society, and that I actually think that one of the gravest issues in the United States is loneliness and lack of connection to community and to institutions.
9:17 Speaker 14 And so I think everybody can benefit from spiritual institutions and spiritual leaders. And at the same time, going from working every day with people who are living on the street, to working with people who come from more of a middle or upper-class background, I really questioned whether that pivot would embody my ideals in the way that I want to serve in the world.
9:41 Speaker 15 I do believe that faith leaders do have a responsibility to address when we see injustices in our communities, to listen closely to our communities, to be, in some sense, because of sometimes our public position, to be people who are able to bring those concerns to people in power.
10:00 Speaker 14 A couple of weeks ago, I was down in DC for a three-day conference with Trua. It organizes Jewish clergy, including rabbis and cantors, to take part in activism on human rights issues. And the main focus of the conference was this question of how do we as clergy organize in response to potential violations of our civil rights as Americans and as human beings?
10:30 Speaker 13 The numbers of people who have found themselves sometimes aligned with the powers of the world, with government, as it's seeking to promote justice and equity, treating people kindly with compassion. And sometimes they have found themselves in dire, in real perilous opposition.
10:49 Speaker 14 We had a great training, and we learned about different sort of resistance movements, specifically in the context of democratic backsliding and authoritarianism around the world.
11:01 Speaker 14 And historically, and ways in which those things have been halted, and countries have returned to more democratic norms. And the argument they were making is religion and religious leaders have played a role in every successful movement to halt democratic backsliding and growing authoritarianism. That if you don't have the religious leaders on board, it's much harder. And if you do have them on board, you automatically have this one pillar of power in society.
11:37 Speaker 15 When I think about how faith leaders are a unique and special voice in American civic life, certainly, I think of Reverend Dr. King. And one of his ways of thinking about that was to refer to the religious communities. His word was the church, but we would think of interfaith voices in this day and age. That our faith voices are meant in some sense to be the conscience of the state. That was his phrase. In other words, from Reverend William Barber, another faith voice in the public square. We are here not to be a voice telling people right from left, but to remind them of the difference between right and wrong.
12:17 Speaker 13 I remember getting into serious trouble soon after I was made bishop. And I said, you know, I think both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are wall builders. And because there was a sense in which elitism was throwing people out, and people were feeling not heard. And then, of course, the wall that we're supposed to see on the southern border. My role, I think, at that point was to say, let's go have some coffee. Let's talk.
12:42 Speaker 16 I met a guy, he was in Salt Lake, he's a priest. And he had been in the town for some years, so he had some street cred had been around. It really does make a difference sometimes. Anyway, he brought together folk, red and blue deliberately, and no hidden agenda except, we're gonna sit down and get to know each other as people. They didn't debate issues. They shared their personal story.
13:06 Speaker 16 About how my personal story brought me to a particular way of understanding and issue people or whatever it was. And that approach can be profoundly transformative because it moves below issues and debate and my need to win the argument.
13:26 Speaker 13 It's easy for me to make pronouncements and statements, but this whole religious business is about finding where we connect and about relationships. And in a world which is trying to tear that away and tear those down, that's the countercultural work of the church. I think if we do that, we will always find ourselves on the fringe.
13:50 Speaker 16 And it really hurts when your friends are furious with you for that. And you do whatever you feel you are called to do with others, hopefully, but called to do, I think it was Kierkegaard said, with fear and trembling. You know, you do what you gotta do. It can be lonely. Hopefully you're in community, you know, I mean, in some kind of community which does help. But, I mean, at one point, I remember saying, I really want to be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning. And that's a selfish way of entering into it. But, I mean, I just found that a sobering kind of thing. Can I look myself in the mirror? Can I look my children in their face?
14:31 Speaker 13 And we have a prayer that we pray that we may find the way of the cross as none other than the way of life and peace. So there's something about the costliness of this path.
14:43 Speaker 15 Dr. King, he actually had a very specific method for how he carried out these campaigns. So step one was listen and determine the case of the injustice. Step two was to negotiate, was to go to those who are in power, go to those who are the stakeholders, those who are decision makers, sometimes to go to the ballot box, to use our democratic civic tools was always the immediate step. Once you know there's an injustice, we use all the tools that I know come up in civics 101 all the time. And the other two steps were reserved for the times when those tools didn't work.
15:27 Speaker 15 If we've gone to do our voting, if we've signed our petitions, we've made our phone calls to our legislators, all those things, and the injustices are continuing. He then moved people to steps three and four, which belong together, they're inseparable. Step three, critically for Dr. King, was spiritual self-preparation. And then four was direct action. You know, we often think of King's marches, the march across the Pettus Bridge, acts of protest, acts of sit-ins, Rosa Parks, sitting at the front of the bus. We might think of, in our day and age, any of the direct actions, that might be protests, candlelight vigils, any of those kinds of direct action tools. Those are only follow the failure
16:10 Speaker 15 of civic tools to help us, but also are necessarily followed by spiritual self-preparation. You know, he wanted people to be ready for the stresses of what direct action might mean.
16:27 Hannah McCarthy? We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll hear more from Rabbi Abby Weber, Bishop Michael Curry, Reverend Jason Wells, and Bishop Rob Hirschfeld about their approach to civic action as faith leaders in America. Stay tuned.
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21:00 Hannah McCarthy? We're back. Today on Civics 101, Nick and I are hearing from faith leaders in the United States. When you are the person someone turns to for spiritual guidance, literally sussing out what is right and what is wrong, especially when the country is, as we are hearing over and over again, often divided on what is right and what is wrong, how are these faith leaders conducting themselves? What questions are they asking? What is guiding their choice to move beyond their church, their temple, their synagogue, their mosque, their place of worship, to take their beliefs to the streets?
21:41 Speaker 20 Well, 20 faith leaders were arrested today protesting outside the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Building in southwest Portland. They were singing, praying, and sharing stories outside the ICE building with the goal of raising awareness of the immigrants detained right now in the federal prison in Sheridan. This is the sixth time faith leaders have held a protest.
22:01 Hannah McCarthy? Here is Rabbi Abby Weber again.
22:03 Speaker 14 If I said to my congregation, "All right, everybody, we're getting on the bus. We're going to the protest," they would say, "Well, does that violate our tax-exempt status if you are, you know, trying to work on this political issue? And also, I'm going to have to study this for longer. And we're going to have to have like many hours of deliberations in our board meetings to discuss whether it's appropriate for us as a congregation to take a side on this issue." So I think there are a lot of reasons for that. I happen to have a lot of lawyers in my congregation, as is the case in many Jewish communities. And they're just much more cautious about political things in a way that I have
22:42 Speaker 14 sometimes found frustrating. And I'm impatient. And I've had to learn to be more patient and to really approach my role more as a community organizer than as a, as an authority.
22:56 Hannah McCarthy? Bishop Rob Hirschfeld.
22:58 Speaker 13 And it's frightening for a lot of people. And I can tell you that they're frightened about it. Because we don't like being on the fringe. We don't like being ridiculed. You know, we don't like being told by the religious right, oh, you're all heretics. You don't really actually believe in Jesus. And we don't like being told on the far left, you're consorting too much with those who are oppressors. We like to be liked. It's a civic culture. And the way of Jesus, as Jesus, Jesus was adored and loved and admired until he wasn't.
23:30 Hannah McCarthy? Reverend Jason Wells.
23:31 Speaker 15 When we have differences in politics in our own pews, know when to use and when not to use your pulpit. We have many tools at our disposal. The pulpit is one of them. Instead of using a pulpit to sort of tell people the truth, whether they want to hear it or not, invite conversation, invite people to voice their thoughts back, which a discussion will do and a sermon will not.
23:55 Hannah McCarthy? And Bishop Michael Curry.
23:57 Speaker 16 I remember my daddy used to say, you know, don't ever judge a book by its cover. Read the book. And, you know, I used to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when your parents say that, you sort of dismiss it. And then you get to be age 73, and you say, oh, well, obviously, they knew how smart I was that I would understand it eventually. But, but there is something to that. I remember when we were struggling as a church, we were in a meeting, it was just clergy, and the person leading the session wanted us to share our stories about something. I don't remember what it was. But it was a way of kind of
24:37 Speaker 16 getting. And I remember someone stood up and objected to the story sharing from our lives. He said, if this is a way that I might have to like you.
24:55 Speaker 16 If I really get to know you and I don't want, I want to keep disagreeing with you. And everybody kind of chuckled, but he was, he was, he was serious in a way. But he acknowledged that's the elephant in the room, so to speak.
25:09 Speaker 16 Because with most people, if you get to know somebody, that's on the level of where there's the old priest used to say, who was on my staff in Baltimore, that's where the nitty meets the gritty. And that's where common ground really is. And you know, there's some truth in that.
25:29 Speaker 14 One thing I was invited to do was to testify at a hearing. So I signed up to testify and then I advertised it to my community. And I had like 10 of my congregants come to the hearing. And I spoke about a paragraph from the Shema, which is, there are a set of excerpts from the Torah of biblical excerpts. And the second paragraph of the Shema talks about the dire consequences of us not following the mitzvot, of us not following the commandments. Once I came to understand it through an environmental lens, it made a lot more sense to me. So I brought that up at the hearing to say, my Judaism pushes me to say, we need to
26:14 Speaker 14 learn to live in harmony with our natural resources. And that means investing in renewables for energy. And it was really nice to be there and to say that. And to get a lot of really nice feedback from members of my congregation about it.
26:30 Speaker 15 It is not just a faith leader, but it's my faith leader. That was my rabbi, that was my pastor, who, who was there, which has a particularly extra potent place. When people come to a prayer vigil or a No Kings rally or something else, they're almost always doing this because they have a deeply, whether it's a religious value or not. They have deeply held values about treating other people a certain way, about the kind of nation they want to live in. These are about their deepest values and people appreciate, I find, that clear faith presence, it makes that value visible in a person. It puts on flesh for a little bit, it becomes a visible thing. If those values became a person, hopefully that faith leader is it.
27:14 Speaker 13 The day before Ash Wednesday, we remembered someone named Janani Luam, who was an Archbishop in Uganda. Who found himself in conflict with Idi Amin in the 1970s and spoke out against him, just started speaking, criticizing the totalitarian regime, knows he's going to die, but is not afraid to, and puts his body on the line in witness to this love which is surpassing. And, you know, I, I hope I'm not called to that. And I hope my people in New Hampshire are not called to that.
27:54 Speaker 13 I've never grown up thinking that was a remote possibility in this place. But it's interesting how when we read these saints' lives, they're beginning to have a kind of resonance for a privileged guy like me who's lived a life pretty protected from these things. But I'm beginning to see around the edges and getting closer and closer to our, our usual life, instances of real injustice and anger and hatred that we want to respectfully, lovingly speak against.
28:31 Speaker 15 I think there is a sense of, um, many people in the pews, uh, people who are paying attention to these kinds of questions. They often want to know, is, is that preacher in the pulpit, are they really with me? They may say to go love our neighbor. They may say that we're all created in the image of God and have infinite worth and dignity, but do they really mean it? Or is this a trite phrase that they really don't believe? Is this hypocrisy? Uh, and to see a faith leader, especially their own faith leader, uh, really means the words that you might've heard on Sunday, in fact, are being carried through.
29:10 Speaker 14 Many, many rabbis have talked about being scared to bring up certain issues in their congregations because they think it will lead to too much controversy, too much argument, and they're afraid for their jobs. And I think that, I think that we need to not be afraid. We have to be courageous.
29:32 Speaker 14 There were a lot of rabbis during the civil rights movement who were very courageous. And the thing we forget when we tell that story is there are a lot of rabbis who weren't courageous, who didn't speak up for the civil rights movement, who were even anti-civil rights. A lot of Southern rabbis lost their jobs because if they did speak up, they would get booted out. We need to be courageous because, as we've talked about, religious leaders are a pillar of power. And we have a lot more power in society than we sometimes feel like we do.
30:05 Speaker 16 How will I live day by day? One step at a time. I don't know if y'all know that gospel song. I don't know if it's a Southern. One day at a time, sweet Jesus, one day at a time. And there's something about that one day, one step at a time. And we make choices. And those choices have consequences. Now, I mean, martyrdom or death is pretty far down the road, most of the time. Not all of the time, but most of the time. But it's that choice that we each make. And what's going to guide that choice? A nation always makes a choice on its soul. Will it be the better angels? Or will it be the selfish self? Those are the choices.
30:49 Speaker 16 And we all live with that choice in small ways before you get to the big ones. And on my best days, I choose the right one. On the other days, I hope nobody ever knows about it. You know, it's just sort of that. And that's human. And the prayer is to pray that when it counts, that I will have chosen or yielded to the better angels and not simply to the base self. But, you know, don't kid yourself too much. We're human.
31:33 Hannah McCarthy? That does it for this episode of Civics 101. It was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy, with Nick Capodice. Marina Hanke is our producer. Rebecca Lavoy is our executive producer. Music in this episode comes from Epidemic Sound. If you have questions about the way this country works, in whatever way it seems to be working or not, you can submit them at civics101podcast.org. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.
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33:09 Speaker 03 Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.
33:11 Speaker 11 Witness the beginning of the revolution.
33:13 Speaker 03 Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.
33:16 Speaker 11 Film for IMAX.
33:18 Speaker 03 Make them remember you.
33:20 Speaker 11 The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13. Now streaming on Paramount+.
33:27 Speaker 12 I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for this.
33:35 Speaker 22 He's back.
33:36 Speaker 12 I'm older. I'm wiser.
33:40 Speaker 22 And sharper than ever.
33:41 Speaker 12 Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.
33:49 Speaker 22 Dexter Resurrection. New season now streaming on the Paramount+ Premium Plan.
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