Probable Claus: Is Santa a Criminal?

Today we answer this question from a listener, "Is Santa a criminal?" We get to the bottom of the myriad actions of the jolly old elf, and whether he could reasonably be tried for civil and criminal violations, including but not limited to trespassing, breaking and entering, voyeurism, stalking, surveillance, burglary, tax evasion, bad labor practices, emotional distress, and (in one instance) involuntary manslaughter. Taking us through this complex web of charges is Colin Miller, professor at University of South Carolina School of Law and co-host of the true crime podcast Undisclosed. CLICK HERE: Visit our website to see all of our episodes, donate to the podcast, sign up for our newsletter, get free educational materials, and more! To see Civics 101 in book form, check out A User's Guide to Democracy: How America Works by Hannah McCarthy and Nick Capodice, featuring illustrations by Tom Toro. Check out our other weekly NHPR podcast, Outside/In - we think you'll love it! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, will you give us the facts of the case?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  One can be found guilty of reckless driving in a number of different ways.

• 0:07Speaker 02

  For intentional infliction of emotional distress. And illegal entry without the homeowner's permission. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in employment taxes from-

• 0:16Speaker 03

  We would make such a finding of burdening interstate commerce presumably because we believe we have the capacity to figure out what is interstate commerce.

• 0:23Speaker 04

  What we did at the North Pole. Well, that's not how we do it here! Santa Claus is finished!

• 0:32Nick Capodice?

  You're listening to Civics 101. I'm Nikita Pichay.

• 0:34Hannah McCarthy?

  I'm Hannah McCarthy.

• 0:35Nick Capodice?

  And today on our podcast that explores the basics of how our democracy works, we answer a listener question. Elijah Grosvenor wrote us and asked, "Would Santa be breaking the law when he enters your house through the chimney? Would he be a stalker because he knows everything that you do? In short, Hannah, is Santa a criminal?"

• 0:58Hannah McCarthy?

  The people versus Santa Claus, also known as Saint Nick, Kris Kringle, Per Noel.

• 1:03Nick Capodice?

  Bobo Natalle, Father Christmas.

• 1:05Hannah McCarthy?

  Do you remember in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when Santa just like shows up?

• 1:09Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, where he was like, "Well, I guess Santa's here, and he's got a sword."

• 1:13Speaker 00

  Now, for your presence, Mrs. Beaver.

• 1:18Nick Capodice?

  Gave that Mrs. Beaver a brand-new sewing machine, if I recall correctly. Anyways...

• 1:26Nick Capodice?

  The city fathers may cluck their tongues and cry, "What has this to do with civics?" But Hannah, I swear, this question begs a thorough investigation of how some laws apply to us. We're going to talk about trespassing, burglary, stalking, and also criminal versus civil cases, tort law, the Commerce Clause, and finally, how a legal professional might defend the jolly old elf were he to be on trial.

• 1:54Hannah McCarthy?

  Can we start with that first violation? Santa comes into your house, is he trespassing?

• 2:00Nick Capodice?

  Well, let's approach the entirety of Santa entering your home. And to do this, we're going to look at at least three possible offenses.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Right, so trespass would be entering someone else's property without permission. And so, on the one hand, you could say, "Sure, Santa's trespassing." On the other, you could say, "There's implied consent or an implied license."

• 2:24Hannah McCarthy?

  Aw, Colin Miller.

• 2:25Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, that's right. I needed a legal hard hitter for this episode, so I reached out to Colin Miller. He teaches criminal law and evidence at the University of South Carolina School of Law.

• 2:35Hannah McCarthy?

  I have heard Colin say that so many times because I used to edit the podcast that he co-hosted. Undisclosed addendum. What is an example of implied consent or license?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Like if I'm having people come into my home to do plumbing work or to do carpentry, et cetera. If I'm welcoming Santa in even without explicitly doing so, I'm leaving out milk and cookies, I'm welcoming him in, then in that case, it wouldn't be trespassing.

• 3:01Hannah McCarthy?

  So the act of leaving milk and cookies and writing to Santa earlier that year could be argued as implied consent for his entering your home.

• 3:12Nick Capodice?

  Right. And if we're talking trespassing, that's not him just coming into your house. Trespassing is somebody coming into the four corners of your property lot.

• 3:21Hannah McCarthy?

  Does that include the air above your house?

• 3:24Nick Capodice?

  Whew. Well, you know, we have to do an episode on who owns the air, who rules the skies. But as of right now, the US Supreme Court hasn't ruled on a definitive number of feet above your property that is yours. But it is generally accepted to be anywhere from 80 feet to 500 feet.

• 3:44Hannah McCarthy?

  So if you fell from the sky and landed on somebody's house, could that be trespassing?

• 3:49Nick Capodice?

  Not necessarily.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  And this is interesting. There's a defense to trespassing called necessity. And so, you know, imagine you're flying a hot air balloon and all of a sudden it starts malfunctioning.

• 4:00Nick Capodice?

  Mr. Posit, I think we're going down. Now can we descend?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  And you land on someone's property. That would typically be trespassing. You claim necessity. I was going to die unless I landed this hot air balloon. So yeah, if Santa lands this sleigh on top of the house, again, assuming there's not consent by the homeowner, which there might be, that could be considered trespassing.

• 4:25Hannah McCarthy?

  All right, we've got the sleigh on the roof. Now let's go down the chimney. Is that breaking and entering?

• 4:30Nick Capodice?

  Not anymore, not in most states.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  So breaking and entering is kind of the old common law crime that's become burglary, although some states still have breaking and entering. And even though it's called breaking and entering, it's not necessarily breaking something as much as moving something, like opening a window, et cetera. And so, question is, how does Santa operate? When he enters the chimney, is he actually moving something? Is he causing damage? Or magically is he going down the chimney and not causing damage? So, breaking and entering, probably not.

• 5:01Hannah McCarthy?

  Wait, breaking and entering is not a thing anymore?

• 5:03Nick Capodice?

  No, the breaking part has been removed in the majority of our country. So we have to consider Santa as a potential burglar.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  There are still some states that have breaking and entering, but for the most part, it's been replaced by burglary. No, so burglary is entering the dwelling of another with the intent to commit a felony or theft inside. Meaning, if I break into someone's home and I plan to steal their Monet painting and I'm caught before I do so, I'm still guilty of burglary because I had the intent to steal it when I entered. Santa is giving gifts. The only thing he's doing in the home would be maybe drinking the milk and cookies. But again, that's sort of offered to him, right? He's not taking that without consent. That's being given to him by the homeowners.

• 5:49Hannah McCarthy?

  All right, now this brings us back to the question of the day. Is Santa a criminal? Are these crimes?

• 5:57Nick Capodice?

  I'm so glad you asked that, Hannah. I had Colin break down the difference between a civil and a criminal case.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  So criminal law is, you know, every state has criminal statutes. They prescribe, prohibit certain behavior, murder, trespassing, arson, et cetera. And if the prosecution in a state believes you violated a criminal law, and they can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, they represent the state, the people. And your punishment would be typically imprisonment. It could be a fine, it could be... You know, restitution, et cetera. And then the civil system would be I, as an individual, am suing for damages, monetary damages based upon harm caused to me individually.

• 6:41Nick Capodice?

  Trespass can be civil or criminal, and burglary is almost always criminal.

• 6:46Hannah McCarthy?

  And what defines a felony?

• 6:48Nick Capodice?

  Believe it or not, Hannah, it is the punishment.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Criminal violations, we have a dichotomy. We have misdemeanors and we have felonies. And so, for instance, at the federal level, a misdemeanor is defined as a crime with a maximum punishment of one year or less. So it's a lesser punishment. Felony, the maximum punishment is more than a year. And so that designation of the severity of the crime.

• 7:14Hannah McCarthy?

  So if Santa is found guilty of a criminal violation, he could face fines or imprisonment. But if it's a civil violation, he could be sued.

• 7:23Nick Capodice?

  Yes, and this is an area of law that is called tort law.

• 7:26Hannah McCarthy?

  Tort.

• 7:27Nick Capodice?

  Do you know anybody who went to law school?

• 7:29Hannah McCarthy?

  Yes.

• 7:30Nick Capodice?

  And you ever heard somebody say like, oh, I got torts at 5 o'clock tomorrow?

• 7:33Hannah McCarthy?

  Not specifically, but I have heard them talk about tort law. Do you know what tort law is?

• 7:38Nick Capodice?

  No, I don't. But I do know somebody who does. And as it is the holiday season, I think we should just give her a quick call.

• 7:46Hannah McCarthy?

  Oh, I know who this is.

• 7:50Speaker 07

  Hey, little brother.

• 7:51Nick Capodice?

  This, by the way, is my older, smarter lawyer sister, Kami. Everyone should have a lawyer sister. You went to law school, right?

• 7:58Speaker 07

  I did. I did.

• 8:00Nick Capodice?

  Can you tell us what a tort is?

• 8:03Speaker 07

  A tort?

• 8:03Nick Capodice?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 07

  Well, the amateur baker in me wants to say it's a cake. I guess he wants the legal definition.

• 8:10Nick Capodice?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 07

  Well, the legal definition of a tort is an act or omission that gives rise to injury or harm to another. And it amounts to a civil liability as opposed to criminal liability. I think the example that most of your listeners will probably be familiar with is a car accident. Right? Or a slip and fall, something like that.

• 8:35Nick Capodice?

  Did you enjoy like studying torts when you were in law school?

• 8:38Speaker 07

  Yes, it was actually my favorite subject. It's different from a crime, so there is some overlap between torts and crimes. And I'm probably getting a little too in the weeds on that. But when I said civil liability in the definition of tort, what I meant by that was that it's a monetary damages are awarded as opposed to what we think of as punitive damages, like having to go to jail for a crime.

• 9:02Nick Capodice?

  Okay, thank you, Kami, for answering my question. I've wanted to know that for a long time.

• 9:07Speaker 07

  You're most welcome.

• 9:09Nick Capodice?

  All right, love you.

• 9:10Speaker 07

  Love you too.

• 9:14Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, so how could Santa be prosecuted under a tort?

• 9:18Nick Capodice?

  There is a tort called IIED or NIED that is intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  So that would not be a criminal act. But yes, you could have the family of the naughty kid getting cold suing Santa if they could establish that he caused their child's emotional distress.

• 9:40Hannah McCarthy?

  I know we gotta take a break, but I have one more civil case hypothetical.

• 9:44Nick Capodice?

  Shoot.

• 9:45Hannah McCarthy?

  It's funny you should say that because let's say Santa gives a child a BB gun for Christmas.

• 9:54Speaker 08

  You'll shoot your eye out, kid.

• 9:56Hannah McCarthy?

  This child wrote Santa and asked for it. They maybe sat on his lap in a department store and asked for it. The kid gets the BB gun, shoots it and knocks his glasses off.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  My glasses? Oh no, where are my glasses?

• 10:10Hannah McCarthy?

  Can Santa be considered liable here?

• 10:12Nick Capodice?

  No, he cannot. Once a gift is given, it is the property, sole property of the gifter. Now, this hypothetical child could sue the Red Ryder BB gun manufacturing company and say that there were insufficient warnings about recoil, but in this case, Santa is totally off the hook. And yes, we are going to take a short break, but when we're back, we're going to get into the complicated web of interstate and international commerce when it comes to the man with the bag.

• 10:41Hannah McCarthy?

  But first, it is the holiday season.

• 10:43Nick Capodice?

  A hickory dock.

• 10:45Hannah McCarthy?

  And if you are in the giving vein, our show is listener supported and we would be most appreciative of a tax deductible gift, which you can make by clicking on the link in our show notes or at the top of our website, civics101podcast.org.

• 11:06Nick Capodice?

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• 11:48Nick Capodice?

  up once and they keep working in the background. You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code civics at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 12:12Nick Capodice?

  Holiday season is coming, and I don't think I have to tell you this might be a tough one because things are expensive in the fall of 2026. Everyone I know is looking for ways to make a little extra money prowling around the side hustle subreddits. But I will say, if you're looking to sell something, to launch a store fast before the holiday rush, Shopify is the one-stop-shop platform for making a professional-looking store without touching a line of code. You can sell anything, and you can sell it anywhere that people shop online. You can have it done in minutes, and you can launch before Black Friday, that time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy.

• 12:56Nick Capodice?

  So if you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/civics. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first.

• 13:17Hannah McCarthy?

  The older I get, the more I am looking for truly lovable closet staples that I know I will reach for just as often next year as I do right now. I want a closet that doesn't need constant updates or replacements, just high-quality clothes that last, especially the kind with tags that say 100%. As in 100% Mongolian cashmere, 100% mulberry silk, 100% organic cotton, just like the Quince Fisherman Cropped Cartier I am wearing right this very second. This sweater has kept its shape, color, and softness for years now. I reach for it every single fall, every time I want a warm and elevated look. Quince gives you the quality you expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag.

• 14:02Hannah McCarthy?

  Find the fall pieces you will reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was Civics 101. It's a great way to support the show.

• 14:32Hannah McCarthy?

  We're back. We're repurposing every free music bed we can find that has sleigh bells in it because we are answering a listener's question. Is Santa a criminal? Now, Nick, we've covered the domicile part, but I want to know about another thing our listener brought up. Stalking and voyeurism.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Right, right. You're gonna find out if you're naughty or nice, right?

• 14:56Nick Capodice?

  Again, this is Colin Miller, law professor at the University of South Carolina School of Law.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Depending on the state, again, right, stalking is a crime. Voyeurism is a crime. They have all different elements. But, right, if you're having Santa monitoring 24/7 around the year to find out if the kids are naughty or nice, that could constitute voyeurism. In terms of stalking, that would be about causing harm or mental distress, etc., which that's not Santa's goal.

• 15:27Hannah McCarthy?

  But again, as we heard earlier, giving a kid coal or nothing at all could be infliction of emotional distress.

• 15:34Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, but that's a bit of a stretch. However, there is a far greater possibility of violation if we look at Santa through the legal lens of surveillance. And we say this all the time in our show, but in this instance, it really matters when we go state to state. We are talking about consent to be recorded. And since you and I work in radio, we think about this a lot.

• 15:57Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, we think about this a lot because as journalists, it's never really a question as to whether or not we should ask for consent. But there is this idea of a one-party consent or two-party consent state.

• 16:08Nick Capodice?

  Right. And journalists or not, here in New Hampshire, we are in what's called a two-party consent state. We are one of 13 states that have some manner of two-party or all-party consent. We have to let the person that we're recording know through words or implication that we are recording them. Now, the other 37 states are called one-party consent states.

• 16:29Hannah McCarthy?

  Meaning that if I am in Wisconsin, or Georgia, or New York, I could record audio or video of someone without their consent.

• 16:37Nick Capodice?

  Yes, but your intent matters here. It's against the law to record somebody with an intent to blackmail or commit another crime. And, there's a big exception here. You can't be recorded somewhere where you have the, quote, "expectation of privacy."

• 16:53Hannah McCarthy?

  Right, like a store can have a security camera behind the cash register, but not in the changing rooms, or the bathroom.

• 16:59Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, and I can't set up a camera from my house into my neighbor's bedroom, because that would be a violation of their privacy.

• 17:05Hannah McCarthy?

  So, let's bring this around to Santa. I kind of feel like this one could be the definitive mark against Kris Kringle. If he knows when you're sleeping, is he in your bedroom?

• 17:17Nick Capodice?

  My only counterargument to that, Hannah, is that we don't have evidence of illegal surveillance. You know, he sees you when you're sleeping and he knows when you're awake, but we don't know how he knows that. We're in another legal realm here. This is one of superpowers, and there's not a lot of case law around that.

• 17:33Hannah McCarthy?

  All right, let's move the sleigh along to a very different legal world. Interstate commerce.

• 17:40Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, is Santa skirting taxes or tariffs by hauling that sack of toys hither and yon? Because as we've heard before, Hannah, things can get a little dicey whenever you cross state lines.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  He is obviously crossing state lines and international lines, et cetera, but in terms of commerce and commerce clause, he is not seeking compensa-- unless you consider the milk and cookies compensation for him giving gifts and showing appreciation. So, that would then trigger the commerce clause, and he would have to declare the items that he is bringing in to sell. So, yeah, I guess you could have a violation there.

• 18:17Nick Capodice?

  And, real quick, to anybody out there who's heard of the commerce clause, but isn't exactly sure what it is, here is a brief primer.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Commerce clause is all about the government regulating interstate commerce, so, among the states. And, to sort of go with the classic Supreme Court case in this is Wickard versus Philburn, which is a person growing wheat in their backyard. And that was like the paradigm Commerce Clause case from a century ago that's sort of been refined now.

• 18:46Speaker 09

  Is the possession, the regulation of possession, so necessary to the prohibition of marijuana in interstate commerce that Congress should be able to reach it, just as it was able to reach the growing of wheat in Wicard? That's the question that needs to be answered.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  But yeah, certainly, if you were to say in this case that Santa is exchanging gifts for milk and cookies, then in that case, he's going to have to deal with customs laws and everything regulating conducting a business internationally and across the states.

• 19:19Hannah McCarthy?

  So Santa could be busted for tax evasion.

• 19:22Nick Capodice?

  That's how they got Capone.

• 19:23Hannah McCarthy?

  You're not seriously equating Santa to Al Capone?

• 19:26Nick Capodice?

  No, I'm not. But it's easy for us to just throw out the milk and cookies as incidental, but they keep coming up. They are part of the implied consent to enter the House, and they could turn his actions into those of a transactional nature.

• 19:40Hannah McCarthy?

  How many people does Santa visit?

• 19:43Nick Capodice?

  Well, that's a really tough number. There was a great article from the Washington Post that I read called "The Breathtaking Scale of Santa Claus's Task on Christmas Eve," which took into account ages of children across the world, religions, celebration of Christmas, even among those who don't practice Christianity, and their rough estimate is about 530 million children across the world. Now, that's going to be at least a billion cookies and about 3.6 million gallons of milk.

• 20:10Hannah McCarthy?

  So Santa's real superpower is the ability to process that much dairy. I'm glad we brought the worldwide perspective in here because I have always wondered, who governs the North Pole?

• 20:25Nick Capodice?

  Everybody and nobody, Hannah. The North Pole is not land, it is ice, so therefore it is governed by the Law of the Sea, a treaty from 1982, which about 150 countries signed. Every single country that touches the Atlantic Ocean may claim ownership of the North Pole.

• 20:45Hannah McCarthy?

  Seriously? So you can't, if you're an inland country, you can't claim ownership of the North Pole? That's so silly.

• 20:53Nick Capodice?

  Well, you're owning a little part of the ocean, you know?

• 20:56Hannah McCarthy?

  Wow.

• 20:57Nick Capodice?

  And this matters when we look into our next issue. Does Santa violate any labor laws?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  It's like US, we have OSHA, which is about workplace safety. We have FLSA, which is about labor standards and whether you're, you know, obviously, what are Ls? And how much are they working? Is this child labor around Christmas time? Are they violating labor laws by having them work too long and too hard? What's the workplace like there? You know, all those could potentially be issues for Santa. Yeah, obviously, if there were complaints lobbied against Santa and the North Pole, you could have people coming in and determining, is this a safe workplace? How many hours per week are they working? How much are they being paid? Does Santa have money? Is minimum wage implicated? You know, there's all sorts of things that come into play

• 21:44Speaker 01

  if they're under US jurisdiction. If it's not, what law actually governs the North Pole? Unclear.

• 21:55Nick Capodice?

  Before we finish up, I just want to say, yeah, all of this is pretty wishy-washy. And that's kind of how the law works, isn't it?

• 22:04Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, I know. We cannot ever answer a listener question without saying, "Well, it depends."

• 22:10Nick Capodice?

  Well, it depends. That said, Colin laid out one charge against Santa that's pretty ironclad.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  There's the song about Grandma got run over by a reindeer.

• 22:21Hannah McCarthy?

  I despise that song.

• 22:23Nick Capodice?

  You do?

• 22:24Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Nick Capodice?

  I do, too.

• 22:29Nick Capodice?

  I hate, I hate, I hate Peter Pan, but not as much as I hate that song. But we've got to bring it up because, according to the song, Grandma did get run over by a reindeer.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Assuming that's true, and the kid singing it says, you know, "I happened walking home to our house on Christmas Eve", Stan would probably be guilty of involuntary manslaughter. You know, going back, he is reckless now, or he is negligent. He caused the death of Grandma, and so if that song is right, that's involuntary manslaughter.

• 23:02Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, so let's assume that Santa is charged with any or all of these criminal and civil violations. He comes into court. What would his defense be?

• 23:12Nick Capodice?

  Well, I asked Colin, if you were charged with representing Santa, what would you ask him before the trial?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  I don't know that I need to ask him anything because I think I kind of know what his MO is and what he's doing. What I would try to do within the bounds of the law, which is interesting because you're in New Hampshire, I think. New Hampshire is the only state that advises and informs jurors explicitly about jury nullification.

• 23:40Hannah McCarthy?

  Wait, what is jury nullification?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  So jury nullification says even if the state proves all of the elements of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, jurors have the inherent ability to nullify and say, "I think this is an unjust prosecution. I'm going to find the defendant not guilty."

• 23:56Hannah McCarthy?

  So this means getting a jury to vote a certain way regardless of whether the defendant is guilty?

• 24:02Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, and this is quite rare, but this is you saying to the jury, "Look, yeah, my client did these things. That has been proven, but they shouldn't be punished for it. And I ask you to vote not guilty even though they did it."

• 24:18Speaker 01

  And I think Santa would be the paradigm case of jury nullification of, "Look, they're saying he violated these laws. You all know what Santa Claus does. He brings joy, he brings gifts, happiness, hope, etc. If you were to find him guilty, he would no longer be able to do what he was doing, and it would be awfully tough to find 12 men and women on a jury, none of whom would nullify, meaning we have unanimous verdict of guilt, meaning Santa is shut down." So jury nullification is my huge defense as defense plaintiff for Santa.

• 24:58Nick Capodice?

  So Santa's off the hook in my books today, Hannah, and my only regret is I couldn't figure out about the legality of owning reindeer because they're owned in the North Pole.

• 25:07Hannah McCarthy?

  Right, and the North Pole is owned by everyone. Some countries that perhaps allow reindeer ownership and some that perhaps do not.

• 25:15Nick Capodice?

  Can you name all the reindeer?

• 25:17Hannah McCarthy?

  Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner, Blitzen, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer.

• 25:23Nick Capodice?

  You missed one.

• 25:24Hannah McCarthy?

  No, I didn't.

• 25:24Nick Capodice?

  Yes, you did. Olive.

• 25:27Hannah McCarthy?

  What's the joke? Olive the other reindeer.

• 25:40Nick Capodice?

  Well, that's enough of this huffamorough. Happy holidays to all you out there from us at Civics 101, for real. This episode is written by me, Nick Capodice, with Hannah McCarthy. Our staff includes Jackie Fulton, Christina Phillips is our senior producer, and Rebecca Lavoie, our executive producer. Special thanks always to and for my sister Kami. Movies I quoted in this episode are the BBC version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, The Paper Chase, and Santa Claus: The Movie, all of which I know very well and can perform on command, and also The Christmas Story, which I cannot. Music in this episode by Ryan Kilkeny, Panda Raps, Howard Harper Barnes, Bright Arm Orchestra, Timothy Infinite, The New Fools, Not the Girl by the Whirlpool, Dylan Sitz, Raymond

• 26:23Nick Capodice?

  Grousse, Anthony Earls, Kilo Kaz, Prolator, and the fellow whose albums are always under my tree, Chris Zabriskie. Even though they hold their heads in shame every time they hear it. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.

• 26:49Speaker 10

  What does it really take to start a startup? I'm David Rosenko, entrepreneur, investor, and the host of Leap Forward. In each episode, I go behind the scenes with successful founders and someone who knew them before they were famous: their college roommate, their first employee, or their mom. To hear the sometimes uncomfortable but very real inside stories of how companies actually get built. Companies like Reddit, Airbnb, or Twitch. Listen to the new season of Leap Forward for never-before-heard stories behind the world's most iconic companies.