Lessons from the American Revolution (with Ken Burns)

Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein spent nearly a decade making a twelve-hour documentary on the American Revolution. This is what they learned from the thousands of stories and events that resulted in the United States of America. It's a story of world-changing ideas, contradictory figures, myths that do us no good and what it means to be in pursuit of a more perfect union. You can watch Ken Burns The American Revolution on PBS, PBS.org and the free PBS app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Hannah McCarthy?

  You ever think it's a little odd that we have spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours talking about what we are, who we are, how we work, why we exist, what all of this is based on? And yet, Nick, yet, we have never really talked about the beginning.

• 0:26Hannah McCarthy?

  The war that changed everything. And I mean, everything.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  You think you know something about the revolution and then what you learn over the next nine and a half years is that you knew nothing about the revolution.

• 0:39Hannah McCarthy?

  I'm Hannah McCarthy.

• 0:40Nick Capodice?

  I'm Nikapadiche.

• 0:42Hannah McCarthy?

  This is Civics 101, and today we are speaking with two people who radically opened my eyes to the thing that I, and I dare say many of us, thought we knew a lot about.

• 0:54Nick Capodice?

  We were wrong.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  I'm Ken Burns. I am a co-director and co-producer of the series The American Revolution with Sarah Botstein and David Schmidt.

• 1:04Hannah McCarthy?

  My name is Sarah Botstein, and I co-produced and co-directed the series along with Ken and David Schmidt.

• 1:12Nick Capodice?

  If you've missed it on PBS or you're not television-inclined, the whole series is available to stream on pbs.org. Hannah and I have watched it, all of it, and I'll just speak for myself. I feel like I just met America.

• 1:31Hannah McCarthy?

  And this episode is a little bit different from your typical Civics 101, wherein we pick a topic and explain that one thing as best we can. Because today, we're not going to explain the Revolutionary War to you. If you want that, I warmly recommend you dig into the documentary. Instead, we are going to talk about what it was like for Ken and Sarah to make this project, what they learned, and how they think about the seven-plus-year conflict that resulted in an entirely new nation.

• 2:01Hannah McCarthy?

  And how they approach the story of America and the study of history itself.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  You think you know something about George Washington, you knew nothing about George Washington. You hadn't heard of most of the people that we introduced you in the film, let alone, you know, got to know them in intimate ways.

• 2:18Hannah McCarthy?

  It's remarkable to me, the degree to which the elements and players of the American Revolution lived in my mind as these abstract, two-dimensional things. Now, this is despite nine years working at Civics 101. We throw around names of people and places like they mean something, which they do, just maybe not what you thought.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  So it's very much a steep learning curve for us. And then what that translates into is less an arrogance of me telling you, Sarah and I telling you what you've got to know, is sharing with you our process of discovery. And the whole thing is a process of discovery. And it's not so much additive as it is subtractive. We collect as much stuff as we can and then try to keep in as much nuance. We've got a neon sign in the editing room that says it's complicated.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Because we always are looking for the destabilizing, not for the sake of it, but just because when you've got a scene that's working and then you learn an important nuance.

• 3:23Nick Capodice?

  This reminded me so much, Hannah, of the many times that one of us has discovered a great anecdote from history that seems to explain everything in this nice, neat, tidy little package. And then we do a little more research and wouldn't you know, it's complicated.

• 3:39Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, that is why I appreciate the term destabilizing so much here. Nice, neat, and tidy is rarely the whole truth, but it sure is easier to swallow. And when you're making a documentary about the Revolutionary War, you're butting up against so many assumptions and myths and tidy boxes that make the story seem less complicated.

• 4:02Hannah McCarthy?

  Our story.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  You know, what I tell groups of people, not just kids, like, and the kids always know the answer to this, the first part of it is, how were the colonists, both rich and poor, all men, who dumped the tea into Boston Harbor dressed? And the kids all go, and some of the adults go, dressed as Native Americans. And then you say, why? And there's a big silence, and you get a few people, very understandably saying, to deflect the blame, to put the blame, right? Which is what, if we're honest with ourselves, that's probably what we thought if we'd even gotten that far in thinking. But as the scholar Phil Deloria tells us in our film, no. It's a way of making yourself distinct, however ironic the undertow of that is, making you distinct.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  We're no longer, he says, of the motherland, we're Aboriginal. So all of a sudden, how their dress becomes a gigantic statement, given the fact that the last 150 years has been about the displacement of Native peoples from their lands, and the next 150 years will be the completion of the job all the way to the Pacific. But there, how do they distinguish themselves in this moment of great, not just symbolic, but real protest? Is to say, we are no longer connected with the mother country. Now, that's something that, for me, was as big a thing as anything I've ever come across.

• 5:29Nick Capodice?

  So I have to admit here, Hannah, this directly contradicts what I learned reporting on my own episode on protest. The idea that the colonists were trying to pass the blame on to a group that they were actively displacing, a group they saw as the "other." Like, that makes sense. That's a dichotomy that's, as you put it, easy to swallow.

• 5:50Hannah McCarthy?

  And the true story reveals this complex rationale and perspective.

• 5:55Hannah McCarthy?

  The colonists' appropriation is this strange paradox. I think it says a lot about Boston colonial hypocrisy, romanticism, mindsets before the war began. What at that moment these protesters thought would best project independent Americanism, regardless of the irony that's clear to us today. The true story forces us to consider these coexisting contradictory elements of a story we thought we knew pretty well.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Having a little fact in every little place, if you spend the time we've spent working on this, working and engaging in the scholars, everything has a little bit of undertow, has a little bit of quicksand, has a little bit of the opposite, as well as the other opposite being true at the same time. And that's exhilarating if you're open to it.

• 6:44Nick Capodice?

  I love comparing these complications to undertow and quicksand, Hannah. You know, you're swimming along, you're walking along, la, la, la, this is the path I know. And then, all of a sudden, whoosh, you go under. And you can either avoid the ocean, avoid the fire swamp, or you can say, wow, now I can draw the real map. Now I know what's really going on here.

• 7:11Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, and we're going to come back to this piece soon because Ken has a lot more to say about holding both the good story and the unsavory story in your mind at the same time. And there's a good reason to do that. But to get all those little pieces, calm, surface, and undertow, Sarah and Ken had to find those pieces. They had to ask many, many people what they knew about the story.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  Take Maggie Blackhawk. She's a very well-renowned legal scholar. Take Vince Brown. He's a specialist in the Caribbean experience of the war. When we started, if someone... Said to me, oh, are you going to have a Caribbean scholar? I would have gone, uh, I have no idea. But the more we read and learned, the more we realize how important the Caribbean is to the history of the American Revolution. And then there are more generalists like Alan Taylor and Jane Kaminsky. And then there's, you know, the British side of the struggle, the British perspective, and that's Christopher Brown, who's a wonderful scholar, teaches the American Revolution, but is really interested in the British piece of it, along with Stephen Conway.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  And then, you know, the writers, Rick Atkinson, Nathaniel Philbrick, Stacey Schiff, Bill Hoagland, add something that the academics don't.

• 8:28Nick Capodice?

  It actually reminds me of the parable of the five blind men and the elephant. Except this elephant is many years long and thousands of miles large, and you need the person who sees the wall of it, the person who sees the snake, the one who sees the tree, et cetera. And you've got to put all that together to see the elephant.

• 8:48Hannah McCarthy?

  And the documentary examines these many pieces over and over again. Some of the strange truths of the revolution are difficult to internalize. For example, the fact that this was a war fought amongst ourselves. We think redcoats versus revolutionaries, British versus American, but that distinction was new and often murky at the time.

• 9:12Speaker 03

  It's a world war. It's a civil war. It involves all kinds of people from all different backgrounds who make all kinds of really interesting choices that have a lot to learn from why they made those choices. So, you know, you're asking the viewer to think, A, what does this have to do with me? Can I find myself in this history? How does it inform my idea of being an American citizen in 2025? What is the responsibility that I have?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  I had an experience, sitting right where I am, of sharing the introduction to this film with a dear friend. And at the end of it, she said, I wonder what side I'd be on.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  I wonder whether there would be a cause that I would fight for. Would I be willing to kill someone for that cause? Now, you'd think somebody had been working on this film for seven years would go, "Yeah, I think about that every day." And I went, "I don't think I thought about it that way." I thought about, like, you know, could I have been a loyalist? Well, I just, every American would like to assume they'd be a patriot. Could I have been a loyalist? Yeah, I do have an ancestor that was a loyalist and signed an oath of allegiance and ended up in New Brunswick.

• 10:30Nick Capodice?

  Have you ever thought about this, Hannah? Whether you could have been a loyalist?

• 10:34Hannah McCarthy?

  Only ever since I read that loyalists existed in the colonies in the Felicity American Girl doll books. But I cannot emphasize enough, Nick, how much growing up near Boston influences your understanding of the American Revolution and which side you should be on. And we romanticized it. In my mind, the words "American Revolution" were surrounded by glittering stars and flags and there was inspirational music playing and this feeling of this rightful victory. But really, we're talking about a long and bloody war against friends and neighbors. And Ken and Sarah are not here to keep that romantic vision up.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  It was a really terrible war and a lot of mothers lost their sons and sisters lost their brothers and people died and families were divided. And it took almost a decade for that to happen.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  They fought each other, they killed each other. The lesson is the collective lesson that we can take, that violence doesn't work. When do human beings decide that they're in impasse and skip the fighting and the killing part and jump to the negotiation part? That's a huge thing because I think what we think is we had these great thoughts and then there was Lexington and Concord and then the British surrendered at Yorktown. That's six and a half years later and the Treaty of Paris is not until eight years later and the British don't leave until eight and a half. And two months later, from New York City, their big stronghold for most of the war from September 15th, 1776 to November 25th, this is an occupied nation. So there were pacifists and many of them were loyalists, right?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  There was a pacifist Nathaniel Greene, who turns out to be our second best general in the course of things, and he decides that pacifism is a little, kind of, not quite to the point right now, given what's going on, meaning... He wants to be in on the fighting.

• 12:26Nick Capodice?

  So we've been talking, Hannah, about holding both the good and the unsavory, the glittering and the tarnished, in your mind at the same time when it comes to the American Revolution. That's how you actually get to a real understanding, right? And hand in hand with this bloody war are these glorious ideals of liberty and equality. And what's remarkable to me is the fact that despite these being goals written by white landowning men for white landowning men, it was not just white landowning men fighting this war, and it was not just white landowning men who believed in these ideals, who wanted them, expected them.

• 13:05Hannah McCarthy?

  And this is something that you and I talk about a lot, right? Thomas Jefferson, in the Declaration of Independence famously writes, "All men are created equal." Now, he may have meant all white landowning men like me, but he wrote "all."

• 13:22Speaker 03

  The American Revolution isn't just fancy guys in Philadelphia duking out great thoughts and leaving a lot of people out from their original thinking, but maybe they weren't really leaving people out, they just, it was going to take us a while to actually get there?

• 13:38Speaker 01

  We had an experience last week with the conservative scholar Yuval Levin. He just said, among many, many startling and wonderful, wonderful things, and we were so pleased that he had loved the entire film and had watched it, but more important, he said, "When you say, 'all men are created equal,' once you say the word 'all,'"

• 13:59Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  It's "all."

• 14:01Speaker 03

  Might take us a while.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Now, he may mean only white men of property, free of debt, but "all" is "all." And that means that the second that "all" comes out, slavery is over. It's going to take fourscore and nine years, but it's over in the United States.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  It'll take a little while for Hannah and me to get the right to vote.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Hannah and Sarah get the right to vote 144 years later.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  144 years later, yes.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  But it's, it's done. Suffragists happened.

• 14:33Hannah McCarthy?

  I got excited here because this is actually an argument that I have made quite a few times in my personal life when I'm asked, what makes me feel patriotic? What I love about this country? What's so great about democracy after all? Et cetera, et cetera. To me, a big part of it is that a rich, white, powerful man made a strong choice of words and everybody kind of called his bluff.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  It wasn't until the slave owners were complaining that the British were treating them like they were slaves. And that concurrent with that is the release of this document that all men are created equal, that is not just heard by George Washington and Thomas Jefferson said, oh, whoa, boy, that's good, Tom. Yeah, thanks, George. You know, it was like heard by the people who were serving them food. Everybody heard it. As Maggie Blackhawk, the scholar, says in our film, it's deeply significant to people at the margins who don't have that and won't have that for a significant amount of time. And so Bernard Balin, he said, you know, after the revolution, there wasn't a moment when we weren't talking about slavery. And so the cat is out of the bag.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  So what, there is this democratic spirit that is released, both intended and unintentional. And the unintentional is as important as the intentional. Like, democracy itself was not an intention of the revolution. It's a byproduct. They imagined a kind of republican aristocracy that would rule things of white men, of property, free of debt. And that's what he meant when he said, all men are created equal. But the people who won the revolution for those people were teenagers and ne'er do wells and second and third sons without a chance of an inheritance and recent immigrants and, you know, a whole bunch of people that they hadn't expected, freed and enslaved black people and native people who were allies.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  I mean, this was a whole big, you know, like a World War II bomber movie, you know, group of characters. And they're going to need something at the end for what they did, for the sacrifice they made.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  So democracy becomes a consequence, perhaps unintended, a consequence of the revolution and not an intention. So Hannah, that's the $64,000 question. That's the grand slam home run of it, is what happens when you create these conditions in which this argument between Englishmen breaks out into, because we're in the Enlightenment, big, huge, big idea, natural rights, meaning everybody. And all of a sudden, when you say, "All men are created equal," as Yuval says, that "all," you know, it's "all." It means "all." What part of "all" don't you understand?

• 17:27Hannah McCarthy?

  And you know, you can look at these as these white, land-owning, powerful men slipping up and accidentally opening the floodgates for the teenagers and the Ne'er-Dwells and the third sons and the new immigrants and the women and the freed and enslaved black people and the native people. You can look at it as greedy elites who barely saw the rest of the nation, who are often flawed and immoral, and you can throw them out, but keep their good ideas. But that, Ken explained, is not going to get us very far.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  And you begin to realize, as Jefferson is distilling this in the words that are both poetic and vague, that he's just, he's left room for the rest of us to drive a truck through it. So while we spend all of our time in a kind of false binary, sort of, "Do we throw Jefferson out? Do we keep Jefferson? What do we do? He's there. We just call balls and strikes." But, you know, as Annette Gordon Reed says, "He knew slavery was wrong, and how do you do something if you know it's wrong?" She says, "That's a question for all of us." She's not letting Jefferson off the hook. She's keeping him on the hook, but she's putting the rest of us on the hook for not being, as we are not, true to what is right and true all the time.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  And so you can take the experience of the American Revolution and turn it into a skull tisk tisk and cancel somebody. You can elevate other people who have the same flaws that Jefferson has, right? Or different variations of human frailty and flaws.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Or you can accept them and understand how we're going to take this recipe and continually improve on it because it's a much richer recipe right now. The cake we got out of it in 1776 was delicious, but it's 100 times more delicious now.

• 19:19Nick Capodice?

  I feel Hannah, like so much of our conversation with Ken and Sarah was a reminder to hang on to both the bathwater and the baby.

• 19:27Hannah McCarthy?

  You learn a lot more about the supposedly glittering thing if you can see the mess that it came from.

• 19:32Nick Capodice?

  So it can be less messy in the future.

• 19:34Hannah McCarthy?

  So we can be less messy in the future.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Mark Twain said, "Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits." Right? Meaning, we're always willing to tell Hannah or Nick what they need to do. Right? It's what I am responsible to do. This is, this is the great anxiety of atoms. How will I change myself? How will I participate in these fraught times to be a better citizen, to contribute to the progress, the pursuit of happiness and a more perfect union? What, what will that entail?

• 20:08Hannah McCarthy?

  What that entails after the break.

• 20:11Nick Capodice?

  But before that break, it is no 12-hour Revolutionary War documentary, but Hannah and I did write a book, a book in which we share the story of America, why we're here and what we are doing. It also includes the brilliant illustrations from our friend and New Yorker cartoonist Tom Toro. Check it out. It's called A User's Guide to Democracy: How America Works.

• 20:45Nick Capodice?

  Have any of you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing, there are companies called data brokers, whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers.

• 21:08Nick Capodice?

  Strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data is out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over. So your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once and they keep working in the background. You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code civics at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 21:51Nick Capodice?

  Holiday season is coming and I don't think I have to tell you this might be a tough one because things are expensive in the fall of 2026. Everyone I know is looking for ways to make a little extra money. Prowling around the side hustle subreddits. But I will say, if you're looking to sell something to launch a store fast before the holiday rush, Shopify is the one stop shop platform for making a professional looking store without touching a line of code. You can sell anything and you can sell it anywhere that people shop online. You can have it done in minutes and you can launch before Black Friday, that time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy.

• 22:35Nick Capodice?

  So if you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/civics. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first.

• 22:56Hannah McCarthy?

  The older I get, the more I am looking for truly lovable closet staples that I know I will reach for just as often next year as I do right now. I want a closet that doesn't need constant updates or replacements, just high quality clothes that last, especially the kind with tags that say 100%. As in 100% Mongolian cashmere.

• 23:18Hannah McCarthy?

  100% mulberry silk, 100% organic cotton, just like the Quince Fisherman Cropped Cartier I am wearing right this very second. This sweater has kept its shape, color, and softness for years now. I reach for it every single fall, every time I want a warm and elevated look. Quince gives you the quality you expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. Find the fall pieces you will reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was civics 101. It's a great way to support the show.

• 24:13Hannah McCarthy?

  We're back. Today, we are sharing a conversation with Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein, who, together with their team and a host of scholars and writers and nearly 10 years of work, created a documentary, The American Revolution.

• 24:26Nick Capodice?

  And just before the break, we got to one of my favorite subjects from our conversation with Ken and Sarah, using our understanding of our history and the flaws and mistakes and the victories and the glory of the past to make us more perfect, which is, incidentally, the only way this is going to work.

• 24:44Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, to that point, there's this moment in the documentary. You've got Paul Giamatti reading a letter written by John Adams, and Adams says, basically, "This thing isn't going to work unless people put society above themselves."

• 24:58Speaker 01

  And that's why we teach civics, which is to arm our young citizens with the tools necessary to continue the lifelong learning, the pursuit of happiness, that they said was necessary in order to keep up with stuff.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  And make a virtuous public.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 03

  Virtue.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  There's too much ambition and avarice, too much greed, too much lust for profit. There's not enough virtue to create what we're gonna need. And this is the anxiety we've always had. And this is a human thing. He's worried not about, like, in this particular case, he's talking about human nature everywhere. He's talking about Kazakhstan and Peru, right? And Iceland. That's what he's talking about as well, because these are, you know, the great thing about the Declaration is he says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident." There is nothing self-evident about these truths. Actually, he wrote, "We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable." That's actually more accurate to the thing, meaning, we're telling you something new.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Self-evidence says, "Everybody's always believed this, but it's not true." But it's Franklin who adds the self-evidence and scratches out in the first draft, which you can see in our film twice, you know, the sacred and undeniable. It's just terrific, terrific editing on the part of Franklin, of Jefferson's, you know, beautiful, beautiful prose. And the most important word is not happiness, which they meant was like, learning, learning, learning. And virtue, virtue, virtue, as Sarah would say. But it's pursuit.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Right? It's, we're a process. And we're all the way through this. And then in the Constitution, which is, you know, many years later, right? Right? A dozen years later, we're saying a more perfect union. So we're always putting the goalposts ahead of us. The perfection is impossible. The happiness is unattainable. But we are obligated as citizens, not subjects. Subjects can just remain ignorant and a kind of superstitious peasantry, right? But as a citizen, you don't give up. You just keep learning. And you just figure out a new way to sort of parse the complexity,

• 27:20Speaker 01

  even the impossibility of these sentences, these phrases.

• 27:26Hannah McCarthy?

  The American Revolution can be and often is told to us as a story of ideal union, of collective America, the United States. But that, as Ken says, is the goalpost that we never actually reach. We weren't there then, we are not there now. We're moving toward it. And looking back and seeing just how far we've come is integral to the project.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  I was born in 1972. I have very little memories of the bicentennial. And in my imagination, when we started the film, I was like, oh, the country was totally united then, and we had parades, and people were flying the flag, and it's daughters of the American Revolution. Okay, well, some of that happened, but the country was wildly divided. It was the fall of Saigon. People couldn't agree about anything. There was huge social upheaval. So, as Ken was just saying, we have always been divided. We need to listen to each other. We need to think about where our divisions lie. We need to inspire people to be engaged in their local communities. I think that's where we have a lot to learn from the revolution.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  They were not, first of all, they didn't know how it was going to turn out, right? So Ken always says, George Washington doesn't know he's going to be George Washington. Thomas Jefferson is 34 years old, 33 years old, 33 or 34 when he writes the Declaration. They're just like really smart revolutionaries duking it out amongst themselves. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson couldn't agree. But they love each other at the end because they can't agree, right? And we've watched in 250 years so much of their debate play out.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  We've been doing this for a long time, making films about American history for 50 years, and you learn a lot of things. And what the revolution re-reminds us is how divided we were back then, really divided, way more divided than we are now. We kind of think of it, oh, it's an argument, as we say in the introduction, it's not just a clash between Englishmen over Indian land and taxes and reparation, but a bloody struggle that would involve more than two dozen nations, European as well as Native American, that somehow came to be about the noblest aspirations of humankind. So all of that stuff exists. We were divided when we began this. We're obviously divided now as we finish it and share it with the world.

• 30:04Nick Capodice?

  This conversation with Ken and Sarah was such an important reminder to me of what history is for Hannah, and how we can and should use what happened 250 years ago to get through the next 250.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  And what we do know is that history, as you guys know, is the greatest teacher. And so we just know that it helps to have that kind of perspective. It may make you less of a Chicken Little, the sky is falling. It may give you more confidence to reengage with those noble aspirations of humankind in a way that you hadn't really thought of. It may make you understand George Washington a little bit better, or what a 10-year-old girl, what's happening to her in 1775 when the war begins. All of these things are possible, and that's where history just opens up. You know, I've given a few commencement addresses, and I remember I was approaching the first one with great anxiety, and someone said, "Well, whatever you do, don't tell them their future lies ahead of them." That's such a

• 31:02Speaker 01

  disgrace. So I said, "Okay," and I admitted that somebody had said that. And so I said, "I want to talk to you today about how your future lies behind you in the history you don't know." And that's, I still firmly, that was, you know, in the mid eighties, I still firmly believe that. And, and I think that we have this opportunity to sort of, Lincoln says it in a message to Congress. He first says, fellow citizens, we cannot escape history. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor to the latest generation. Then he changes courses and he goes, the dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. As our case is new, we must think anew and act

• 31:44Speaker 01

  anew. We must disenthrall ourselves. That means don't be a slave to, and then we can save our country. So he's not contradictory. He's understanding that it is both true. We have to gather the threads of our past, but we also have to see this as a completely new situation.

• 32:05Nick Capodice?

  Disenthrall ourselves really got to me, as Lincoln often does. I think it can be difficult to understand what really happened before. Understand that we are a product of that. Keep that history in mind as we look to the future, but also know that the past is not some transparent blueprint you can just lay over the present.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Are there federal troops in US cities? Yes. Is this like the standing army that everybody got so upset about when General Gage sent the regiments from Halifax, Nova Scotia into Boston, not to protect them, but to police them? Yes. But it's really different set of circumstances. So in, if you take the reaction of the colonists to this and apply it to now, you've missed the boat. You have to both disenthrall ourselves because our case is new, and at the same time, you have to realize the inescapability of history. And if you can hold those two seemingly contradictory things, just as he does, Lincoln does in the second inaugural when he's very Old Testament, you know, if, if it's going to take 500 years with every drop of blood drawn by the lash, it'll be drawn by the sword,

• 33:10Speaker 01

  meaning, you know, you want to keep this up? We will keep this up. And then he pivots and goes from Old Testament to New Testament with malice towards none, with charity for all.

• 33:22Nick Capodice?

  Have any of you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing. There are companies called data brokers whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over, so your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once, and they keep working in the background.

• 34:07Nick Capodice?

  You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code CIVICS at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 34:28Nick Capodice?

  Holiday season is coming, and I don't think I have to tell you this might be a tough one because things are expensive in the fall of 2026. Everyone I know is looking for ways to make a little extra money, prowling around the side hustle subreddits. But I will say, if you're looking to sell something, to launch a store fast before the holiday rush, Shopify is the one-stop-shop platform for making a professional-looking store without touching a line of code. You can sell anything, and you can sell it anywhere that people shop online. You can have it done in minutes, and you can launch before Black Friday, that time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy.

• 35:12Nick Capodice?

  So if you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/civics. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first...

• 35:37Speaker 01

  This is what we have to do as citizens. We are required, this is what the Declaration also says, "Pursuit of happiness is lifelong learning, not acquisition of stuff. It's lifelong learning. It's the ability to tolerate these contradictions and to learn and grow from them and work from them. And the reason why history is for so many people boring is because it's always one-dimensional. When it has dimension to it, when it has story to it, when it isn't just an argument of one thing or another, then it blossoms. And like a garden, it just continually bears fruit.

• 36:17Hannah McCarthy?

  Over the course of watching this documentary, I gasped, I sobbed, I laughed. I furiously texted my friends, asking if they knew the whole story of Benedict Arnold. They definitely didn't. And for me personally, gaining a new level of understanding, standing in the multi-dimensional garden of complex stories and people from one of our most mythologized eras, it's like getting to be Ralph Waldo Emerson's transparent eyeball.

• 36:48Nick Capodice?

  You're gonna have to give me a little bit more there.

• 36:50Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, Emerson was actually talking about dissolving the ego and seeing everything, becoming one with nature. You're this transparent eyeball that sees it all, right? But my point is, there are these boundaries and biases that, at least for me, fall away when you open history up, when you see how flawed and complex people were and are. Messy blood and bone. But with these astonishing, glittering ideals. Those were humans back there, fighting and arguing and working toward a goal so spectacular that it is still ahead of us. And the reason we're here today is because we are still fighting and arguing and working

• 37:35Hannah McCarthy?

  toward that goal. And you can either call that madness, or you can go out and be a part of the tussle.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  The inspiration I hope people take from the show is that you do have a voice, that our founders wanted us to be involved, that our founders wanted us to debate our neighbors civilly and with virtue, and to try to figure it out. So I don't want that to sound naive. I truly mean it. I mean, we were, I was just thinking, we were making this film as we were finishing a film that came out three years ago on the US and the Holocaust. And one of the things that that film studies is how quickly the world descended into a world war, and how America changed and also stayed exactly the same through

• 38:26Speaker 03

  the depression, and what, you know, what America was like in the 1920s, the 1930s, the 1940s, the 1950s. And in that film, there's an enormous amount to celebrate about the American military achievement in the Second World War, and a lot to be very discouraged about when it comes to America's history of antisemitism, nativism, isolationist tendencies. And both those things happened in that film. And here we are talking about the American Revolution a few years later, and there are so many pieces that those two films can learn from each other in thinking about the past. But the thing that's the same at the end of both of them, you should vote, you should care about your local library, you

• 39:10Speaker 03

  should care about your local school board. Politics starts locally, and John Adams and Thomas Jefferson knew that in their own 18th century way.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Sarah's absolutely right. Let's just pull something out from the revolutionary period, which we can agree on. So we win the Battle of Yorktown in 1781. We have a Treaty of Paris in 1783. The British leave at the end of November of 1783, and things go to hell in a handbag. The Articles of Confederation are toothless and ineffective. And we then, in 1787, decide we need to have a constitutional convention. George, will you please come out of retirement and chair this? Be the president of this? Okay, they make phenomenal compromises, some genius, some unbelievably tragic. And they work out a system. But then, as Annette Gordon Reed says,

• 40:00Speaker 01

  what follows is one of the greatest periods of public debate in the history of the world.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  There's not a Chez Rebellion. It's not old soldiers killing each other over taxes in Massachusetts or this or that. It's people engaging. And what they all want is they want this new blueprint. But the blueprint is without poetry, except for the preamble. It's code. And they said, we need to append to this code what we actually just spent all this time fighting for, which we call the Bill of Rights. It is an itemization of everything they think that they've earned. And all of this takes place with vigorous public conversation and revision. We got to the ten, almost simultaneously with the various new states of the United States

• 40:54Speaker 01

  ratifying this unusual document, never before in the history of humankind, and then said, we enshrine these things, right? Just the first one alone is like the whole stuff. The government will not establish a particular religion. They saw that religion was at the heart of most of the struggles that had taken place in the world, or the excuse used as a cudgel against your enemy. We'll make no religion. It gives you the chance to have the free expression of whatever your religion is. There's freedom of the press, the freedom of speech to articulate what they want, and the freedom to address one's grievances, peacefully address one's grievances. I mean, just in the First Amendment alone,

• 41:37Speaker 01

  you have the biggest package of happiness that human beings had ever tied and put a bow on to. Just amendment number one.

• 41:51Nick Capodice?

  So remember at the end of our conversation with Ken and Sarah Hannah, we asked them about community, specifically what it takes to put down the individual, personal things that we cling to, the things we hold up as shields or swords against those who have different shields and swords. Because a question you and I are asking ourselves all the time is how do we talk to one another and combine our efforts? How do we live as the all instead of the one, as the pleribus, not just the unum? And how is the story of the American Revolution, the true story, I mean, a piece of the answer?

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Really, at the heart of, for me, I'll just say for myself, any film I've worked on over the 30 years of working with Ken, I think that humility, I think we almost want our viewer to subtly put that hat on. Please come on this exploration of this subject that is the American experiment, that is American history, and this is, it's our origin story. So there's more in this to, A, be humble about, B, to think very seriously about,

• 43:11Speaker 03

  C, to be deeply patriotic about for very complicated reasons. Patriotism, to me personally, I feel like I've learned a lot about patriotism and thought a lot about patriotism in making this particular film. And to your first question, talking to the scholars that have thought about it, watching our country go through the last two big election cycles that it's gone through, seeing what's happening on the world stage, understanding over 250 years where I personally think America has done well and been a beacon of hope and example, and where I think we haven't done well, and how both those things together give me energy

• 43:52Speaker 03

  and optimism to fight for a better future. The more humble we become, no question about that, the more we listen, the more we experience, the better we become, the healthier we are, our families are, our communities are, our republic is. And that's, I mean, speaking for myself, that's at the heart of the work that we do.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  What is worth fighting for? If it comes to that? What is worth killing for? Maybe you'd hope that humanity would be at a place where it didn't do any of that, that it found a way to solve it. But I also think, I mean, you think about D-Day. And you've got farm kids from Iowa or Nebraska who are landing at Omaha Beach, the worst of all of the landing spots. They're not getting paid anything to speak of.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  There is no territory that the United States is gaining. There's no looting. There's no profit. They are there because of an idea. And it's so powerful. An idea born, or at least articulated on July 4, 1776. It is so powerful that nearly, you know, 200 years later, people are willing to sacrifice. So maybe not so much, what would I be willing to kill for?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  But what would I be willing to die for in the service of these ideas? And it is our collective failure, and I mean the four of us, that we have a citizenry around us that is often ignorant even of the essential ability to ask these questions of themselves. A lot of it has to do with our failure to teach our history well or to understand the centrality of civics, which isn't just, you know, 100 senators and 435 representatives and three branches of government. But it's, I live in a tiny town in New Hampshire and... You know, it's whether we buy this fire truck that costs $350,000 or $450,000

• 46:22Speaker 01

  this year. And what do we do about this little problem about parking over here? All of that things are part of this bigger, bigger thing that we've said by virtue of being an American that we're going to be part of. And so it's now, how do we, how do we shout to every Middlesex village and farm, the alarm, you know? Not that the British are coming. They didn't say that. They said the regulars are coming out. The regulars are coming out. But if you don't use it, you lose it. That's our message.

• 47:12Hannah McCarthy?

  That does it for this episode. Now go shout it to every Middlesex village and farm, and also all of the other counties outside of Middlesex County, Massachusetts. This was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy, with Nick Cappadicei. Rebecca Lavoy is our executive producer. Marina Hanke is our producer. Music in this episode by Mr. You know, you missed me, Chris Sabriski. A reminder again that Ken Burns's Revolutionary War is available to stream on pbs.org, as well as several other streaming services. If you watch it and you have thoughts or questions and you want us to answer them in a Civics 101 episode, well, that's what we're here for. Email us at [email protected]. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.

• 48:08Speaker 04

  What does it really take to start a startup? I'm David Rosenko, entrepreneur, investor, and the host of Leap Forward. In each episode, I go behind the scenes with successful founders and someone who knew them before they were famous: their college roommate, their first employee, or their mom. To hear the sometimes uncomfortable, but very real inside stories of how companies actually get built. Companies like Reddit, Airbnb, or Twitch. Listen to the new season of Leap Forward for never-before- heard stories behind the world's most iconic companies.