Why Students Are Having a Tough Time

Today we share our second installment on why things are tough in the civics world. Specifically, we talk about how students are doing in civics classrooms and on national assessments. But! It's not all bad news. Shawn Healey (Chief Policy and Advocacy Officer at iCivics) takes us through the myriad state bills that are currently in the legislative process which will affect civic education, and we hear from three students (Ava-June Tackett, Shreya Raman, and Ben Kurian) on what they think can improve civic learning and reduce partisanship. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Well, new this morning, the National Education Report Card was released overnight. It is painting a concerning picture of our students.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Academic performances have really slipped over this last year, but some scores hitting lows set in the early 2000s.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  The latest report card shows kids' history scores are now historically low. The nation's middle schoolers are struggling to explain major themes and events in the country's past and lack a basic understanding of the way government works.

• 0:29Nick Capodice?

  You're listening to Civics 101. I'm Nick Capodice.

• 0:33Speaker 04

  I'm Hannah McCarthy.

• 0:34Nick Capodice?

  And today, our second episode in collaboration with iCivics, talking about what Hannah and I learned at the Civic Learning Week National Forum in Philly. Today, we are going to hear why, civics-wise, the kids are not all right. But it is not all doom and gloom today. People who are fans of civics and civic education, which I imagine is a large chunk of the people who listen to this very show, those folks are going to get some good news. So stick around.

• 1:09Nick Capodice?

  All right, everyone. So a few seconds ago, I said the kids are not all right, but I should really take that back. They are all right, and they always will be, at least according to Pete Townsend in The Who. But in all honesty, we could be doing a better job when it comes to helping them out, at least when it comes to civics.

• 1:31Speaker 04

  You've probably heard Nick or me talk about this before. When we look at federal dollars appropriated towards civic education, it is, compared to what is appropriated for reading or math, a small, small amount.

• 1:47Nick Capodice?

  And to call one group out by way of comparison, the federal government spends about $50 per student per year on STEM education.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  Science, technology, engineering, and math. Nick, what is the current spend on civics?

• 2:00Speaker 05

  The appropriation for fiscal year '26, which is, will end at the end of September, we're at $23 million, which is about 46 cents a student.

• 2:10Nick Capodice?

  This is Sean Healy. Sean is the Chief Policy and Advocacy Officer at iCivics. He travels the country constantly to talk to state legislatures and individuals, and he advocates for, you know, policy that improves civic education.

• 2:28Nick Capodice?

  And 23 million, like you said, it's not a small number, I know, but it is 0.03% of the $63 billion federal education budget.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  So I know that we do not spend a lot on civics education federally, but how well are we doing when it comes to civic education? Do we test it?

• 2:50Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, we sort of do, and this is all part of NAEP, which we refer to as NAEP, the National Assessment of Educational Progress, which people also might know as the nation's report card. Civics assessment is not mandatory. States can opt in to see how proficient their students are at civics, but the data we get from NAEP is one massive nationwide assessment of how the United States is doing at civics.

• 3:17Speaker 05

  Since 2010, we've only done that with eighth graders, and you've seen the headlines, the proficiency numbers. In 2022, it was at 22% proficiency, which was a little lower than in the past, but that's kind of where we've been stuck in that range really since the assessments been employed. And down to the state level, by our count, 29 states have some type of assessment in civics, but the majority of them are using some version of the US Naturalization Test, which, yeah, is somewhat controversial.

• 3:57Speaker 04

  What are the main concerns with using the naturalization test?

• 4:01Speaker 05

  It requires a pretty low level of knowledge. So what are the colors of the stripes on the flag, or what do they mean? For example, not saying that that's not important, but the concern is that if that's all we're teaching in civics, that's insufficient.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  22% proficiency.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Does that make it our weakest subject?

• 4:24Speaker 05

  So the only test that students do worse on, on the nation's report card is, is American history. So we're at 15% proficiency there on, on the last test. So we, we see the two very much tethered, right? The, the US history and civics need to be taught in sequence and they speak to one another, but those are the lowest scores of all the subjects tested by NAEP. It speaks to the, the marginalization, the broader marginalization of social studies, right? And in particular, just imagine if we weren't teaching reading and math in K5, right? And we're, we're in a place now where we're lucky if students are getting 20 minutes a day on social studies.

• 5:06Speaker 05

  So it's, that's, I don't know about you, Nick, but my recollection at elementary school growing up was social studies was right there with the other subjects, right? It wasn't, it wasn't bigger, but it was very equivalent and that is just not the case. I have a daughter in elementary school and they teach social studies like every other semester and they, so they alternate social studies and science.

• 5:30Nick Capodice?

  Did you have social studies in eighth grade, Hannah?

• 5:32Speaker 04

  I did.

• 5:32Nick Capodice?

  I did too. I think there was some geography in there as well. I may have mentioned it in another episode, but our teacher started every class by asking us, "How you doing?" And we were supposed to shout, "Hungry." This was a reference to All the President's Men, where Harry Rosenfeld is talking about Woodward and Bernstein.

• 5:50Speaker 06

  He wants on the story, Ben. They both do. He knows a lot of people. Howard, the hungry. You remember when you were hungry?

• 5:57Speaker 04

  So what happened? How did we get to 20 minutes a day on social studies and such low proficiency scores?

• 6:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, a big driver of this was No Child Left Behind, right? Which goes, goes back 25 years now and many states, I'm, I'm here in Illinois, we had a, a state social studies test and essentially that law said, "We're, we're going to hold you accountable for student performance in reading and math." So many states jettison assessments in other subject areas. And as they say, unfortunately, in the current era, if you, you don't test it, you don't teach it. But schools are punished and rewarded for student performance and reading and math. So that's where the attention lies. And I think it's also fair to say, Some of the retrenchment of the teaching of civics and social studies preceded No Child Left

• 6:49Speaker 05

  Behind, so this didn't just, you know, start in 2001, 2002. It's controversial, right? So broadly, Americans support teaching American history and civics. That's a 90-10 issue. But then when you get into what we teach, how we teach, that's more controversial, right? And unfortunately, in this moment, if it's too hot to touch, you might put it over there, right? So it's the combination of not being a priority from the perspective of policy, and then in some corners, being considered too hot to handle.

• 7:23Speaker 04

  Nick.

• 7:24Nick Capodice?

  What?

• 7:25Speaker 04

  It's a grim picture. Yeah, some people may consider civics and US history too hot to handle, but it is us. I don't mean you and me, Nick Capodice and Hannah McCarthy. I mean civics is about understanding how we are governed, how we operate, how we got here, how we negotiate with each other, talk to each other. Do you have any good news?

• 7:51Nick Capodice?

  I do. And the good news is that while federal support and program is focused on civics is frankly rather anemic, there is a title shift at the state level.

• 8:03Speaker 05

  This spring, we've been tracking over 240 bills in 40 states that impact civic education. And some of those big ones are already across the finish line. Many states are already adjourning. Just as we're recording this, just yesterday, Alaska passed legislation that requires a high school course in civics, an assessment in civics, and a civic diploma seal. Mississippi adopted a high school course requirement. Civic diploma seals just exploding.

• 8:39Speaker 04

  What are civic diploma seals?

• 8:42Nick Capodice?

  This is something that, at the start of this year, about a dozen states did, where they recognize high school students for excellence in civics by putting a state seal on their diploma. So 10 more states are currently in the process of adopting state civic seals. They have either signed it into law, or it is currently in a bill moving through the legislative process.

• 9:05Speaker 05

  It's not crazy to say we could see 50 state adoption of civic diploma seals by 2030. The reason I think they're spreading so quickly is, or there are several reasons, but one, pretty easy to adopt, right? We're not mandating a new course. This is voluntary, right? So it's more of a carrot approach versus a stick approach. It aligns with what lots of other states are doing with respect to putting forth portraits of a graduate. And so 26 states have already put forth these portraits. And they are not overtly civic, but there are certainly civic skills or competencies that they prioritize.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  So information literacy, for example, the ability to have conversations across ideological divides, engagement in communities. These are often part of graduate portraits and civic seals very much align with those. So I think you're getting, we're moving to a place where civic competencies are prioritized and we'll, schools and districts and states will need to think of young people's civic development, not just in a single high school class, but over a K-12 trajectory. So that's a really positive development.

• 10:26Speaker 04

  So these seals aren't just like proof that you know the three branches and that Marbury versus Madison established judicial review. They are evidence that you are someone who does the work of being a citizen. You're informed, you participate in your community.

• 10:42Nick Capodice?

  Yeah. And if you're leaving high school, this can go on your resume or your college application, whatever. All right. So that is good news number one. Here is the second shift. We are, for the first time in decades, changing how we assess civics.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  The National Assessment Governing Board approved a week ago, expansion of the NAEP civics assessment as soon as 2028. So they were just in the field this spring doing the eighth grade assessment again. But come 2028, they're going to do the eighth grade assessment and they're going to do it expanded to allow state level data, which we've never had for civics. We have that in reading and math. States have to opt in, so some may not. But in having that data, we'll be able to compare how states are doing relative to one another with respect to civics. So that's kind of the other side, the kind of carrot stick approach civic seals in this this new NAEP assessment.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  Also kind of inside baseball, but they are going to revise the framework.

• 11:51Speaker 04

  Meaning what? They're rewriting the questions?

• 11:54Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, I'm putting a link to the current assessment in the show notes, just in case any of you out there want to take a crack at it and see how well you do on sample questions versus an eighth grader. But these questions, Hannah, they have not been revised in a long time.

• 12:08Speaker 04

  How long?

• 12:09Speaker 05

  For NAEP civics, so it hasn't been revised since the 1990s.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  The 1990s, my so-called life in Buffy.

• 12:17Nick Capodice?

  Blossom in Beverly Hills 90210, Hannah.

• 12:20Speaker 05

  Now, just a little bit has changed in our politics since then. It's not, it's very focused on institutions, the three branches of government, et cetera. But it, but doesn't recognize, I think, the fact that our democracy has become increasingly digital, right? So the way we engage in democracy is so different. It is very, you know, it's probably the best characterization of the framework is it is a mile wide and an inch deep. So as we teach about the three branches of government, for example, it's not just important that we can name the three branches of government, but can we talk about how they interact with one another, right? The these divided and shared powers. And then, you know, this is a very right conversation in this moment.

• 13:06Speaker 05

  How has that balance of power evolved over time? Like, that's the level of conceptual understanding we'd like to see this new framework encompass.

• 13:17Nick Capodice?

  And the reason this is so important is that we read that big scary national 22% proficiency number, but like we so often say in other episodes, Hannah, states do education, right? Not the federal government. And if we can see which states are doing better at civics and which states need help, that can make a big change. But I have to add, states have to opt into this voluntarily. So whether they do or not will remain to be seen.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  Did Sean say if there was any indication that a lot of states would do this?

• 13:52Nick Capodice?

  We cannot know for sure, but he is pretty hopeful.

• 13:55Speaker 05

  The call hasn't happened yet, but we heard from our friends at Nagbe that they had an informational meeting and 45 states showed up. So that was surprising and really encouraging. What I didn't point out with those civic seals programs is there are red states, there are blue states, there are purple states, you know, that there's, there's this broad adoption. And that's really encouraging to me.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  All right, Nick. So that is how we, in terms of states, are changing policy to improve civic education. But what about the kids themselves? How do they think they're doing?

• 14:32Nick Capodice?

  Well, I'm going to share some students' thoughts, three students, to be exact, three people who also happen to be among the brightest civic minds I have ever encountered in my whole life, right after a quick break.

• 14:49Nick Capodice?

  Have any of you out there ever Googled your own name, like actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing, there are companies called data brokers, whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests. Over and over. So your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up

• 15:31Nick Capodice?

  once and they keep working in the background. You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code civics at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 15:55Nick Capodice?

  Holiday season is coming and I don't think I have to tell you this might be a tough one because things are expensive in the fall of 2026. Everyone I know is looking for ways to make a little extra money prowling around the side hustle subreddits. But I will say, if you're looking to sell something to launch a store fast before the holiday rush, Shopify is the one stop shop platform for making a professional looking store without touching a line of code. You can sell anything and you can sell it anywhere that people shop online. You can have it done in minutes and you can launch before Black Friday, that time of year when more people

• 16:36Nick Capodice?

  are already shopping and ready to buy. So if you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/civics. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first.

• 17:00Hannah McCarthy?

  The older I get, the more I am looking for truly lovable closet staples that I know I will reach for just as often next year as I do right now. I want a closet that doesn't need constant updates or replacements, just high quality clothes that last, especially the kind with tags that say 100%, as in 100% Mongolian cashmere, 100% mulberry silk, 100% organic cotton, just like the Quince Fisherman Cropped Carti and I am wearing right this very second. This sweater has kept its shape, color, and softness for years now. I reach for it every single fall. Every time I want a warm and elevated look. Quince gives you the quality you expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag.

• 17:45Hannah McCarthy?

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• 18:13Speaker 02

  And now, sitting on stage with some of the most accomplished people I've ever met, who happen to be children, I'm starting to feel bad about myself. If you're an adult in this room and you hear what these kids have done already, you might feel a little bit of that too, but far more than that, you'll feel really good about the future.

• 18:31Nick Capodice?

  This is from a panel at the Civic Learning Week National Forum, where fellow civic explainer Ben Sheehan, he's the host of Civics Made Easy on PBS, check it out. Ben was interviewing some very accomplished high schoolers on what kind of policies they cared about, what they're up to in their schools. So they got off the stage and I was able to snag them for a few minutes to hear what they are seeing in the classroom. I talked to Ava June Tackett.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  I'm Ava June Tackett and I'm a sophomore at Johnson Central High School in Johnson County, Kentucky.

• 19:03Nick Capodice?

  To Shreya Raman. Hi, my name is Shreya Raman. I go to Bases at Tukey, I'm a junior in Phoenix, Arizona. And to Ben Kurian.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  I'm Ben Kurian, I'm a current sophomore from Olentangie Liberty High School. I'm in Powell, Ohio, that's a suburb of Columbus, Ohio.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  So I started my civics, I don't, journey, I guess, in the National Civic Speed through the Chamber of Commerce Foundation. And my speech and essay was over improving civics education in schools. And I got to create a community problem solving project called Young Government. I got to write a children's book called Honestly Abe.

• 19:36Hannah McCarthy?

  I've advised for the Arizona Board of Education, the Charter School Board, and the Governors Commission. I've given a TED Talk and I work in politics, so I managed my

• 19:45Nick Capodice?

  First ever campaign of 14, we lost. I think really three formative experiences I've seen kind of through my civic identity. The first one being filmmaking. So when I was in 7th grade, I kind of realized Ohio was a leader in national opioid deaths. So I created a documentary about that, trying to raise awareness, break the stigma. I was fortunate to win first prize in a national competition hosted by C-SPAN Network. And ever since then, I've been creating a lot more documentaries on a variety of different civic issues.

• 20:14Nick Capodice?

  So I asked them first, what's it like where you go to school? Like, what do you feel personally about how things are going in your civics classroom?

• 20:24Speaker 04

  Teachers are terrified to teach civics because, like I said, it is so polarized. And I'm from Kentucky, which, and it's no secret that Kentucky is one of the most polarized states in the nation. But teachers are scared of the Facebook posts that follow. They're scared of the classroom switches that happen, and it leads to them not teaching civics because it's safer to not. But when you think about it, it's not safer because if you don't teach basic principles and how to be involved, then you face a nation that is not educated. And that is the scariest thing that our nation is facing, is people that aren't, they don't know what they're talking about.

• 21:07Hannah McCarthy?

  I'm a teacher's assistant, a TA for AP Government. And so the class, the classes I TA in, they're such curious kids. They're all freshmen because my school makes all of us take AP Government as freshmen. And they're so curious about especially what's going on with current events and how that relates to curriculum. And I watch my government teacher get all these questions. And there's always a sense of like, what will parents say? What will administrators say if I talk about this issue? Especially when you're asking about something like current events, like what's going on internationally, what's going on domestically in America. And teachers are so scared to talk about it because even though it's such vital information, there's always going to be a parent out there, or an administrator, or a policymaker out there who's going to see it as brainwashing children.

• 21:50Hannah McCarthy?

  Which I don't think informing children is is brainwashing them. When when a student asks in class, what's happening with with this legislation? What's happening with with this country? They're asking because they they want to know they're curious about the world around them. And it's so dangerous telling telling teachers they have to squash that curiosity for the sake of not being controversial, because controversy is not a bad thing. Everything is controversial.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  We're seeing a lot of polarization like that is undeniable. You know, party specific advocacy. So what our students do, you know, our 32 high school undergrad and med students, they come to us, they bring us like a specific bill that's being worked on or trying to be passed through the House or Senate. And and they tell us, hey, like, I support this issue or like, I don't support this issue. And it's usually never, you know, party based. It's it's more just based on the issue like, do I like the implementation of this bill? Or do I not? Maybe it's it's teaching kids more about, you know, specific issues, right? Or specific policies. I think that specificity is the way to to drive out polarization and and to foster like a better civic education.

• 23:00Nick Capodice?

  And then I said to them, look, you are three of the most civically engaged students in the nation. You've either written a book, you've made a documentary, you've run a political campaign. What advice would you give to a fellow student who feels that they don't have the opportunity you've had? Someone who maybe feels like, hey, great, when I'm 18, I can vote. But politicians don't seem to care that much about young voters and young voters don't have a good turnout. Maybe this is someone who feels a little disenchanted by politics in general. What would you say to that student?

• 23:41Hannah McCarthy?

  When you talk about like the inherent pessimism surrounding people in terms of political efficacy, I really want to emphasize that pessimism does not breed inefficiency. One of the best things you can do as an informed citizen is being able to critique the country you love. And so whether it's through basic civic actions like, like voting, or things like volunteering for a campaign, phone banking, going door to door for a cause that you really care about. Those are all things that's available to everyone. I cannot stress enough how every political candidate in, in your state is gonna have and look for volunteers to, to phone bank, to go door to door and talk about certain issues, right? Like I've done that so many different times. I help lead phone banking now. There will, there will always be an opportunity to, to advocate for a cause that you really care about.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  So I really think it's important to emphasize that civics isn't always politics. Politics is turned into kind of a dirty word in America right now because we are so polarized, more than ever before. And so civics is not, it can be politics. Don't get me wrong. I mean, being involved in a campaign is great and that's wonderful work that you're doing. But civics is on a more general scale, anything to impact your community. And that's what kids need to realize is when they talk to, whenever they go play basketball with their friends from other school districts, that's civics because you're making a connection. Civics is being involved, making the connections of people in your community and not letting

• 25:10Speaker 04

  the word community be limited to where you're at.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Children are inherently very innocent, right? We are super like enthusiastic, engaged. I have a family friend who's a three-year-old who will just go on and on and on about a variety of topics. But I think it really means that just like, we care, like we are like pretty much involved. So that isn't really the problem. It's more just knowing how to get involved. So I think the way to know how to get involved is to just like see the impact that, you know, society has on you. It's not a problem of them being interested or like wanting to help out their community because I'm sure they do. It's more just like knowing that they can do that and, and how to do that. So I think giving students the tools to, you know, maybe how to reach out to a local

• 25:55Speaker 02

  policymaker, or giving them the tools to advocate maybe on social media. There are so many different avenues today, especially, you know, living in the 21st century to be

• 26:05Hannah McCarthy?

  Be civically engaged, and I think it's just teaching our children just how to use those tools. I know a lot of people who from less fortunate backgrounds who always talk about how they don't have time, time for politics or time for civics because they're trying to put food on the table for their family. You fix that issue by advocating politically, by having civic engagement. If you're struggling to put food on the table, if your parents, if you're watching your parents struggle to make a living, the way you fix that systemically is by advocating for policies to raise the minimum wage or for more affordable healthcare. That's how you you make a difference. And no matter what issue you're struggling with, there will always be a political avenue for you to take to fix that issue.

• 26:49Speaker 04

  Nick, you called this episode, Why Kids Are Having a Tough Time. But it feels like not only are the kids all right, maybe because of them, the rest of us are going to be.

• 27:03Nick Capodice?

  Do you think I could use like a who sample or would I get into trouble for that?

• 27:11Nick Capodice?

  That's it for this who-less episode on how students feel they're doing in the civics classroom. This episode is made in collaboration with iCivics by me, Nick Capodice, with you, Hannah McCarthy. Thank you. Our staff includes producer Marina Henke, producer Dana Cataldo, and executive producer Rebecca Lavoy. Music in this episode from Blue Dot Sessions, Epidemic Sound, and the wondrous Chris Sabriski. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio. By the way, New Hampshire just signed a bill doing the civic seals. True story. Check it out, Sid. See you later.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  What does it really take to start a startup? I'm David Rosenko, entrepreneur, investor, and the host of Leap Forward. In each episode, I go behind the scenes with successful founders and someone who knew them before they were famous: their college roommate, their first employee, or their mom. To hear the sometimes uncomfortable but very real inside stories of how companies actually get built. Companies like Reddit, Airbnb, or Twitch. Listen to the new season of Leap Forward for never-before-heard stories behind the world's most iconic companies.