What is the 25th Amendment?

Sometimes, news happens in the real world, and suddenly a political or civics topic becomes very top of mind for members of the public. And when that happens, we at Civics 101 often say, hey…we have an episode about that. DONATE TO THE SHOW! One of those conversations happened this week, after a tweet from President Trump related to the war in Iran had some conservative, traditionally pro-Trump voices evoking a specific part of the Constitution - the 25th Amendment. Back in 2022, we made an episode breaking down the 25th Amendment, and it’s pretty thorough about its history and what it means. So, given that it’s on folks’ minds right now, we’ve decided to drop that episode again. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Nick Capodice?

  Hey everybody, Nick here. Sometimes news happens in the real world and suddenly a political or a civics topic becomes very top of mind for members of the public. One of those conversations happened this week after a Truth Social post from President Trump related to the war in Iran had some conservative, traditionally pro-Trump voices evoking a specific part of the Constitution, namely the 25th Amendment. Back in 2022, we made an episode breaking down the 25th Amendment, and it is pretty thorough about its history and what it means. So, given that it's on folks' minds right now, we've decided to drop that episode in the feed today.

• 0:44Nick Capodice?

  Please give it a listen. And thanks.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 0:51Speaker 03

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from Star.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 0:56Speaker 03

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• 0:58Speaker 02

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Leaping, November 20th, made in PG-13.

• 1:02Hannah McCarthy?

  Hey, listen! Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure, now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet. And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built-in microphone. Hmm hmm hmm, hmm hmm hmm. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, a Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up.

• 1:32Hannah McCarthy?

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• 1:59Hannah McCarthy?

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• 2:04Nick Capodice?

  Hannah, we have made a lot of episodes of Civics 101 since the show started in 2017. And at any one time, we've got a list of 20 to 30 different topics that we're either already working on or want to do soon. And yet, there are few topics we keep coming back to over and over.

• 2:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, elections and voting, those are two I can think of.

• 2:28Nick Capodice?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Speaker 06

  We could probably fill a dozen episodes with things about the election process, the politics of voting, of representation.

• 2:36Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, there's one topic we've talked about multiple times on the show because it keeps coming up in the news during the presidencies of both Donald Trump and Joe Biden.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Have you emailed any members with the executive branch about the president's health or cockpit decline? Do you see these incapacitated? Well, I think that we have got to be very careful. He needs to start acting presidential.

• 2:58Nick Capodice?

  It has to do with presidential power and checks on that power. The fish stinks from the head. Plain and simple. And so I believe the president is dangerous and should not hold office one day longer. But it's not impeachment. It has to do with the responsibility of the president, the vice president, and the cabinet to ensure we have a leader who is able to do their job. I'm not saying he's not a danger. I do believe that there's grave risk there, but we've got 13 days. People inside the administration, people in the cabinet, were whispering about invoking the 25th Amendment. It's staggering.

• 3:41Nick Capodice?

  This is Civics 101. I'm Nick Capodice.

• 3:42Speaker 06

  I'm Hannah McCarthy.

• 3:43Nick Capodice?

  And today, we are going to break down the 25th Amendment. This is the amendment that lays out what happens when, for whatever reason, the president cannot perform the duties of that office. And there are four parts to this amendment. The first part deals with the line of succession. The second is about replacing the vice President, the third is about when the president declares their own inability. And the fourth, the most debated, is about the vice president and cabinet's power to declare presidential inability. So today, we're going to explore what this 25th amendment thing is all about anyway, and why part four especially is not as straightforward as it seems. And to do that, we need to go back to the beginning, to the creation of the Constitution.

• 4:28Nick Capodice?

  Because there was a lot of time between then and when the 25th amendment was actually ratified in 1967.

• 4:36Nick Capodice?

  The year was 1787. A bunch of men in wigs were crowded in a room in Philadelphia debating how our government should work. And as it is often said, it was hot, very hot. We're talking about the Constitutional Convention. And one subject of debate was, what do we do if something happens to the president?

• 5:01Speaker 06

  Well, they were debating exactly how they should frame the language addressing presidential succession in the Constitution. And they went back and forth as to how to say, you know, what happens when the president becomes disabled? Should there be an election? Should there not be an election?

• 5:18Nick Capodice?

  This is Lana Ulrich. She's the Vice President of Content and Senior Counsel at the National Constitution Center.

• 5:24Speaker 06

  So they finally settled on the language that is included in the original Constitution in Article 2, Section 1, Clause 6, which says, "In case of the removal of the president from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office, the same shall devolve on the vice president. And the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal, death, resignation, or inability, both of the president and the vice president declaring what officer shall then act as president, and such officer shall act accordingly until the disability be removed, or a president shall be elected."

• 6:02Speaker 06

  And that seemed to clarify a bit as to what would happen, but it didn't answer all of the questions. And there was one delegate in particular, Dickinson, who was taking notes during the debate and sort of wrote to himself, what is the extent of the term disability? And who is to be judge of it?

• 6:19Nick Capodice?

  John Dickinson, who represented Delaware at the Constitutional Convention, was a supporter of the Great Compromise. This is what gave smaller states equal representation to larger ones in the Senate and proportional representation in the House. And that word disability is very, very complicated. Throughout US history, there have been deeply ingrained societal prejudices and discrimination towards people who have disabilities or require accommodations. So that word carries a lot of weight.

• 6:48Hannah McCarthy?

  So basically, the only real things the Constitution said at the time were that if something happened to the president, the vice president would take over the president's duties and that Congress was in charge of figuring everything else out, correct?

• 7:04Nick Capodice?

  Yeah. The Constitution left Congress to iron out many of the logistics of presidential succession. But it also failed to answer the question, what does it mean for the president to be unable to carry out their duties? And perhaps even more importantly, who determines that?

• 7:21Speaker 06

  And it is still something that is debated to this day.

• 7:27Hannah McCarthy?

  Now, what laws did Congress pass to help build on what was laid out in the Constitution?

• 7:33Nick Capodice?

  The first thing Congress did pertaining to that was to pass the Presidential Succession Act of 1792, which basically laid out what would happen if both the president and vice president were unable to carry out the duties of the presidency.

• 7:46Speaker 06

  Under the first Presidential Succession Act, it was the president pro tempore of the Senate and then followed by the Speaker of the House.

• 7:53Nick Capodice?

  But at the time, the law still stated that whomever replaced the president would serve as, quote, "acting president" until the next election.

• 8:03Hannah McCarthy?

  What is the difference between? Between acting president and just president.

• 8:07Nick Capodice?

  That's the thing. The word "acting" suggested that there was some distinction between the two. But those distinctions weren't actually written out.

• 8:17Nick Capodice?

  And then John Tyler came along. And as so often happens when you put a rule into practice for the first time, you realize that your interpretation is not the only interpretation.

• 8:28Speaker 06

  Right. So William Henry Harrison was the first president to die in office, and he died on April 4, 1841. His vice president, John Tyler, basically just insisted that he became president of the United States and was not merely acting president.

• 8:43Nick Capodice?

  Right off the bat, John Tyler seemed pretty eager to move into the White House and disregard the cabinet that his predecessor had appointed. And he told the cabinet, quote, "I shall be pleased to avail myself of your counsel and advice, but I can never consent to being dictated to as to what I shall or shall not do. I, as president, will be responsible for my administration." And then he basically said that if they didn't agree with that, they were welcome to resign. And some people felt that this was a misinterpretation of what it means to be a acting president.

• 9:17Speaker 06

  This became known as the "Tyler precedent." And it was pretty controversial. Not everyone agreed that the vice president automatically became president, even if the president died in office. Even former President John Quincy Adams wrote to himself, "I paid a visit this morning to Mr. Tyler, who asylumed himself president of the United States and not vice president, acting as president," which should be the correct style.

• 9:42Nick Capodice?

  Former President Harrison's cabinet had understood that the president would only do things if the majority of his cabinet approved of them. And they expected Tyler to follow the same rule as acting president, that he would consult them, trust their judgment, and wouldn't make decisions unless they approved.

• 9:58Hannah McCarthy?

  But this wasn't Tyler's cabinet, right? These were people appointed by Harrison.

• 10:02Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, they weren't his people. And to be frank, there was no love lost there.

• 10:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, there, I think there were some that may have agreed with his interpretation, but as, you know, John Quincy Adams did not. But Tyler basically took the oath of office. He gave an inaugural speech and he moved into the White House. And so they're, just to quell any doubts that he was in fact president, they were, they were silenced at that time.

• 10:26Nick Capodice?

  And this is how we end up with the Tyler precedent, where the line between president and acting president is pretty much nonexistent.

• 10:36Hannah McCarthy?

  What about those times when the president is not obviously permanently out of office, either because they've died or resigned? What if the president gets sick or has an ongoing medical issue?

• 10:49Speaker 06

  There were sort of unspoken norms about what would happen if, at the same time, if a president became disabled. And throughout history, there were many presidents who were quietly incapacitated. And due to many reasons, including the fact that there was no constitutional mechanism in place, they just kind of worked quietly behind the scenes to keep his illness under wraps until the next election. I mean, this happened, you know, with Woodrow Wilson had a severe stroke and for a long period of time toward the end of his term, he was essentially not acting as president. But basically, his wife and his cabinet were just kind of acting in his stead.

• 11:22Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, and this informal, behind closed doors method of the vice president, the cabinet, even the president's spouse was working well enough, even though Congress wasn't really privy to it and didn't have much power over it. There wasn't enough urgency in Congress to rally behind something like a constitutional amendment until the threat of nuclear war came along.

• 11:47Speaker 06

  Right around the time of President Eisenhower, who was also ill. Stricken with ileitis and inflammation of the lower intestine, the 65-year-old chief executive was taken from the White House. Which coincided with the Cold War. Soviet Union has informed us that over recent years, it- has devoted extensive resources to atomic weapons. It became clear that we needed something that was a bit more formalized.

• 12:13Nick Capodice?

  Nothing really happened immediately, though. There was a proposed amendment in 1963 that would give Congress the power to determine if the president was unable to discharge their duties, but many argued that it gave Congress too much power, especially considering that Congress already had the power of impeachment.

• 12:29Speaker 06

  And I think the crucial moment in time was after President John F. Kennedy was assassinated.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  From Dallas, Texas, the flash, apparently official, President Kennedy died at 1:00 PM Central Standard Time, 2:00 Eastern Standard Time, some 38 minutes ago.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Vice President Lyndon Johnson has left the hospital in Dallas, but we do not know to where he has proceeded. Presumably, he will be taking the oath of office shortly and become the 36th President of the United States.

• 13:10Speaker 07

  And then Lyndon Johnson was in office without a vice president, and he had a history of heart attacks.

• 13:20Nick Capodice?

  This is Lynda Monk, constitutional scholar and dear friend of the podcast and author of The Bill of Rights: A User's Guide. We have finally reached the 25th Amendment, which gives clearer rules about what to do if the president cannot carry out their duties.

• 13:35Speaker 07

  So that's when Congress in 65 finally passed it through Congress, and then it was ratified, I believe, in 67.

• 13:43Hannah McCarthy?

  So this amendment does not come up until after we have had several presidents die or have major illnesses while in office.

• 13:51Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, and John F. Kennedy's death, which made Lyndon Johnson president, put the issue of succession at the top of people's minds. The amendment was ratified in 1967. Here is Lana Ulrich again.

• 14:03Speaker 06

  And so when President Nixon resigned in 1974, Vice President Ford became president under Section 1. To continue to fight through the months ahead for my personal vindication would almost totally absorb the time and attention of both the president and the Congress in a period when our entire focus should be on the great issues of peace abroad and prosperity. ... prosperity without inflation at home. Therefore, I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow.

• 14:41Speaker 06

  Vice President Ford will be sworn in as president at that hour in this office. But what if the vice president vacates the job? Because in that example, Gerald Ford was not Nixon's original vice president. He became vice president after Spiro Agnew resigned.

• 15:03Nick Capodice?

  Well, that's part two of the 25th Amendment.

• 15:06Speaker 06

  So this requires the president to nominate a vice president when the office is vacant, subject to the confirmation by a majority of the House and the Senate. Mr. Nixon has asked the Republican hierarchy to propose possible successors by tomorrow evening. His choice, and many names are being mentioned tonight, will have to be approved by majority vote of each House of Congress. So in 1973, Gerald Ford became vice president through Section 2 after Vice President Spiro Agnew resigned. And then when Ford took over the presidency the next year, he invoked Section 2 and nominated Nelson Rockefeller to fill his vice presidential vacancy.

• 15:43Nick Capodice?

  And now we're going to get into those circumstances where the president hasn't died, but for some other reason, they are unable to do the job, either temporarily or permanently. And this is Section 3. Section 3 is about the president's responsibility to decide and disclose when they need to give their duties to the vice president. This is known as a voluntary transfer of power.

• 16:04Speaker 06

  So if the president needed a colonoscopy, for example?

• 16:07Nick Capodice?

  Exactly. Actually, most examples of this happening have to do with colonoscopies specifically. For example, President George W. Bush invoked Section 3 when he had to undergo a colonoscopy, putting Vice President Dick Cheney temporarily in charge.

• 16:23Speaker 06

  In 1985, President Ronald Reagan was also about to undergo colon cancer surgery, and so he designated Vice President George H. W. Bush to be acting president.

• 16:34Nick Capodice?

  And recently, President Biden discharged his duties to Vice President Kamala Harris.

• 16:38Speaker 06

  Because of a colonoscopy?

• 16:39Nick Capodice?

  Because of a colonoscopy.

• 16:45Speaker 06

  And this is the response. Disability of the president, right? They have to be the one who says, okay, I'm going to transfer power right now. You, you, one would assume so, yes, since it's, since it requires a written declaration to both transfer the power and then to resume power after the president's disability is removed, yes. Isn't that interesting, the way that Lana says, one would assume so? I think the implication there being, as with so many wishy washy interpretations of the Constitution, or...

• 17:14Nick Capodice?

  Flat out disregard of it?

• 17:16Speaker 06

  Disregard for the Constitution. The idea is, you know, this is how it has happened and might happen in the future, but anything can be done differently. And sometimes we do things differently, and that can cause a constitutional crisis. So this is all voluntary.

• 17:33Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, and this is called a declaration of inability, where the president submits a notice to Congress saying, presidential power is being discharged to this person, either permanently or until such and such a time. And if the president submits that, they then submit a follow-up declaration when they are able to retake their duties. And this has been used, as we said, several times by different presidents.

• 17:57Speaker 06

  What about an involuntary transfer of power? Is it possible for a sitting president to be removed involuntarily without an impeachment?

• 18:06Nick Capodice?

  This brings us to the quite complicated part four of the 25th Amendment, and we're going to talk about that right after this break.

• 18:15Nick Capodice?

  Have any of you out there ever Googled your own name, like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing, there are companies called data brokers, whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over, so your info doesn't just pop up. Right back up. You set it up once and they keep working in the background.

• 19:00Nick Capodice?

  You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code civics at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 19:22Nick Capodice?

  Holiday season is coming and I don't think I have to tell you this might be a tough one because things are expensive in the fall of 2026. Everyone I know is looking for ways to make a little extra money, prowling around the side hustle subreddits. But I will say, if you're looking to sell something to launch a store fast before the holiday rush, Shopify is the one stop shop platform for making a professional looking store without touching a line of code. You can sell anything and you can sell it anywhere that people shop online. You can have it done in minutes and you can launch before Black Friday, that time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy.

• 20:06Nick Capodice?

  So if you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/civics. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first.

• 20:27Hannah McCarthy?

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• 21:12Hannah McCarthy?

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• 21:37Speaker 01

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from Star.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Film for IMAX.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Make them remember you.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Leaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 21:53Hannah McCarthy?

  We're back. This is Civics 101, and we are talking about what happens when the president dies, resigns, or decides they need to temporarily hand over their presidential duties to the vice president for a medical procedure or something like that. But those processes are not the reason why about two years ago, in the beginning of 2021, everyone was suddenly talking about the 25th Amendment in terms of the vice president or the president's own cabinet taking away the president's power. Specifically, I'm talking about a lot of people wondering whether former President Donald Trump's vice president and cabinet might declare that he was incapable of doing his job, which of course did not happen.

• 22:37Speaker 07

  That in the immediate aftermath of January 6th, members of the president's family, White House staff, and others tried to step in to stabilize the situation, quote, "to land the plane before the presidential transition on January 20th." You will hear about members of the Trump cabinet discussing the possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment and replacing the President of the United States.

• 23:07Hannah McCarthy?

  So what does the 25th Amendment say about those situations where the removal of power might not be voluntary?

• 23:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, so Section 3 is the voluntary transfer of power. But Section 4 details what happens when there may need to be an involuntary transfer of power, when the president, for, it's assumed, medical reasons, is unable to make that conscious decision, whether he's in a coma or whether he has maybe a very severe mental impairment, progressed dementia. In that situation, it allows for the vice president to be the crucial decider, essentially, and working with either the heads of the cabinets, the heads of the departments, and/or a disability review body that Congress may establish, to determine that the president is no longer able to fulfill

• 23:58Speaker 06

  his duties and therefore trigger Section 4 and the mechanisms by which to involuntarily take power away from the president.

• 24:06Nick Capodice?

  That is Lana Ulrich again of the National Constitution Center. And this is Lynda Monk again, constitutional scholar and author of "The Bill of Rights: A User's Guide."

• 24:14Speaker 01

  We talk about disability as though it's physical disability. But I think what the controversy about President Trump is raising is whether or not the president is capable of carrying out. Now, maybe that's not a physical disability. Maybe that's other kinds of capabilities.

• 24:35Hannah McCarthy?

  So who gets to make that call?

• 24:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, under Section 4, the vice president is really the one who starts the process to determine that the president is disabled. And then if the president has the opportunity to contest that, but then the vice president and the department heads can go back to Congress and contest the president's contesting essentially as well. And so, and if they're successful, then the vice president becomes acting president.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  The language is, is that a majority of the cabinet? And the vice president have to be involved if it starts within the executive branch. If the president doesn't go along, it goes to Congress anyway. And it has to be a two-thirds vote. That's a pretty big vote.

• 25:21Hannah McCarthy?

  So this is not something the vice president or the cabinet can do without the approval of Congress?

• 25:28Speaker 06

  You know, we have impeachment, and that's a political process for removing the president. And I think that the 25th Amendment contemplates some kind of disability other than, you know, the president is, you know, maybe did something illegal, is just not performing well. There's got to be something else there, but it's not ultimately up to, say, the White House doctor to make that decision. I think, you know, the vice president may certainly consult with the president's doctors and ask for an opinion, but ultimately, I think it does boil down to a political decision to actually take that step to say, okay, we're going to invoke Section 4 of the 25th Amendment.

• 26:08Hannah McCarthy?

  Has that ever happened?

• 26:09Speaker 06

  No, it hasn't. And it's controversial for many reasons, one being in that it takes power away from a duly-elected president, essentially. But the other is that it's never been invoked, so we don't really know how the procedure and the practice will play out. And there are a number of gaps that are still left open.

• 26:27Nick Capodice?

  For example, during Ronald Reagan's presidency, some of his aides suspected he had developed symptoms of Alzheimer's that were compromising his ability to do the job.

• 26:37Speaker 06

  Some of his aides had discussed that among themselves, I think especially after Iran contra happened. Good evening. I know you've been reading, seeing, and hearing a lot of stories the past several days attributed to Danish sailors, unnamed observers at Italian ports and Spanish harbors, and especially unnamed government officials of my administration. Well, now, you're going to hear the facts from a White House source, and you know my name. And they briefly discussed it, and then I think they decided to do a case study, and they went the next day and spoke with the president and sort of interviewed him. And then they decided, well, he was acting completely normal, and so they felt that it wasn't appropriate at that time to invoke Section 4.

• 27:20Speaker 06

  But they had kicked the idea around.

• 27:23Hannah McCarthy?

  Members of the executive branch, like the vice president or the cabinet, choose to invoke the 25th amendment instead of handing over things to Congress for impeachment.

• 27:33Speaker 06

  You know, we have impeachment and that's a political process for removing the president. And I think that the 25th amendment contemplates some kind of disability other than, you know, the president is, you know, maybe did something illegal, is just not performing well. There's got to be something else there.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  You know, our framers were very good at putting stumbling blocks to the exercise of power. The reason you'd want to start with any kind of removal from office from within the executive branch is because those people are supposed to be, at least by constitutional duty, most loyal to the president. They're supposed to be loyal to the Constitution and the country first, but they wouldn't have gotten there without the president. So you'd think those would be the people who would be most capable of making that determination without political motivation.

• 28:25Nick Capodice?

  In 2021, some members of Congress and the public called on Vice President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th amendment because of President Donald Trump's potential responsibility in and handling of the January 6 riot on the Capitol during the certification of the election.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  He may have only 13 days left as president, but yesterday demonstrated that each and every one of those days is a threat to democracy so long as he is in power. The quickest and most effective way to remove this president from office would be for the vice president to immediately invoke the 25th amendment.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Either way, it's going to come back to Congress. It's going to come back to the leadership in Congress and the vice president.

• 29:15Speaker 06

  It's going to depend on maybe, you know, obviously, a future situation that would call for the application of the amendment to see how it kind of plays out in real life.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Again, this is where I think. Alexis de Tocqueville said it never ceased to amaze him how wonderful the Americans were at ignoring and avoiding the contradictions of their constitution. So oftentimes in our constitutional interpretation, it's what the political actors choose to do. And that that is part of the Constitution. I mean, it's not just supposed to be automatic words on paper. It's people exercising their judgment.

• 30:14Nick Capodice?

  That'll do it for the 25th Amendment today. This episode was written and produced by Christina Phillips with me, Nick Capodice, and Hannah McCarthy. Our staff includes Jackie Fulton, and Rebecca Lavoy is our executive producer. Music in this episode by Gridded, Dew of Light, Ballpoint, Arthur Benson, Fabian Tell, Nocturnum, Blue Dot Sessions, Simon Mathewson, The Grand Affair, and the man against whom I shall never invoke the 25th Amendment, Chris Zabriskie. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.

• 30:47Nick Capodice?

  25!

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• 31:32Speaker 02

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games. Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  Make them remember you.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 31:48Hannah McCarthy?

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