Someone oughta open up a window

Today we take a field trip to Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania where Nick explains why he's like this via an obsession with 1776, the movie based on the musical based on the true events that launched a nation. Our nation. Also, Nick and Hannah get real using Dido as inspiration. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Hannah McCarthy?

  Here I am, sitting on a stoop.

• 0:11Hannah McCarthy?

  Stoop kid's afraid to leave her stoop.

• 0:20Hannah McCarthy?

  Everyone, today you are invited on a field trip. If there is any one historic location that Nick Capodice has seen more than any other, it is probably this one. Except he had never been there before. Now, if you've ever spoken to Nick about the Revolutionary War era, or about movies, or about William Daniels, or really for any length of time, or if you've listened to more than just a few episodes of Civics 101, you have probably heard him mention this one film.

• 0:49Nick Capodice?

  If I had a switch, Hannah, that could turn off my love for the musical 1776, I'd flip it, but I don't have that switch, do I?

• 0:57Hannah McCarthy?

  Nick and I were in Philadelphia for a conference, and we had spent days and days talking about American democracy, about the origin story of this nation. So Nick and I get to the last afternoon of that conference, and I said, "Hey, what if we visited the very place where everything ended, and everything began? And what if you explained that story via your favorite movie of all time, Nick? It was not a hard sell."

• 1:30Hannah McCarthy?

  So here we are, Independence Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where many of the delegates of the Second Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence on August 2, 1776. You are also invited into the mind of Nick Capodice, how this movie and this story took hold of him, and what it means to him right now. This is Civics 101, I'm Hannah McCarthy, and Nick Capodice is beside himself.

• 2:02Nick Capodice?

  This is the most excited I've been. I've never been here before.

• 2:06Hannah McCarthy?

  You've never been?

• 2:07Nick Capodice?

  Never been here, never been. I went to the Muder Museum of Medical Oddities, but I didn't go here, you know? And it feels like, have you been here before?

• 2:16Hannah McCarthy?

  Never.

• 2:16Nick Capodice?

  Oh my god, okay.

• 2:23Nick Capodice?

  What movie did you watch more than any other in your whole life?

• 2:26Hannah McCarthy?

  Princess Bride.

• 2:27Nick Capodice?

  Okay, that's a good one. Yeah, I had that too. So, you know, when I was about 10 years old, I was living in New Hampshire. My dad, uh, ever since some rough behavior about me not getting to watch the Monkees episode I wanted to watch. I used to love this.

• 2:41Hannah McCarthy?

  M-O-N-K-E-E-S?

• 2:42Nick Capodice?

  That's right, the TV show The Monkees. So anyway, my dad was like, "No more TV, that's it." And from that point until I left home, I didn't, we didn't watch TV. We didn't get any channels. We did have a VCR.

• 2:58Hannah McCarthy?

  You did? What? What?

• 3:02Nick Capodice?

  What do you mean?

• 3:04Hannah McCarthy?

  What did you do? What did you do when you weren't allowed to watch an episode of The Monkees?

• 3:10Nick Capodice?

  I flipped out when I was told I couldn't watch The Monkees. And that was the end of it. It was in stages. First it was, "We can only watch The Cosby Show and, uh, Family Ties." So then what would happen is, well then those got banned, and then it was everything's banned. But I went to this friend's house, Christine, dear friend of our family. And she had a tape that said 1776, and I was like, "Oh, what's this?" She said, "It's a musical about the Declaration of Independence."

• 3:41Speaker 02

  When a king becomes a tyrant, he thereby breaks the contract binding his subjects to him. How so?

• 3:48Nick Capodice?

  And I borrowed that tape from her every night for like a year. And then for Christmas, she gave me my own tape of it.

• 3:56Nick Capodice?

  And there were some years I just watched it every day. I loved, it's a musical. I thought it was funny. I thought it was great. And I loved the acting. I loved the music. And I have watched it more than any other film in my life. And this is where it was filmed, Independence Hall. But it's also where the Declaration of Independence was signed.

• 4:17Hannah McCarthy?

  Famously, the site of the filming of 1776 and some other thing that happened.

• 4:22Nick Capodice?

  So the opening scene of the movie is, John Adams is in that tower right there, that bell tower that we can see, sort of staring forlornly. And McNair, congressional custodian, is calling up, like, "Mr. Adams, you gotta get down. We gotta vote in this Congress, and, you know, we have a very important issue." And he's like, "I can just imagine." You know, "What burning issue are we voting on today?" And the big issue, it's not independence, is on whether or not the militia is required to wear matching uniforms. And he storms downstairs,

• 4:58Nick Capodice?

  bursts into the Independence Hall, and starts saying how useless things are in Philadelphia. "This nation will never succeed."

• 5:05Speaker 03

  I have come to the conclusion.

• 5:06Nick Capodice?

  "It's never gonna happen." And then he says, "The one thing we have to do is vote yes for independency, to dissolve our allegiance to the British Crown." And the whole movie is about that struggle to get the Declaration of Independence ratified, written and ratified. This famous song, it's called "Sit Down, John."

• 5:26Speaker 04

  I say, "Vote yes."

• 5:30Speaker 04

  Vote for independency.

• 5:33Nick Capodice?

  William Daniels, who a lot of folks might know as, "What's the teacher's name in Boy Meets World?"

• 5:37Hannah McCarthy?

  Mr. Feeny.

• 5:38Nick Capodice?

  "Why didn't I watch TV, Hannah?"

• 5:40Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, well, Boy Meets World-

• 5:42Nick Capodice?

  Because that was after the monkeys.

• 5:43Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, Boy Meets World is how I learned the monkeys existed, so everything comes full circle. There's an episode where the monkeys show up.

• 5:52Nick Capodice?

  Oh my God. Well, they needed work after their show was canceled.

• 6:06Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, William Daniels plays the irascible, stubborn John Adams, who is obnoxious and disliked. And the whole movie is them lurching towards this bizarre concept of independence.

• 6:22Hannah McCarthy?

  Independence C, as they call it.

• 6:24Nick Capodice?

  Independence C.

• 6:26Speaker 05

  Will someone shut that man up? Never!

• 6:30Nick Capodice?

  The villain in the movie. So the protagonist, the hero, is John Adams, missing his beloved wife, Abigail, who he writes letters to and says how much he loves her.

• 6:41Hannah McCarthy?

  And where's Abigail?

• 6:43Nick Capodice?

  She's in Quincy, Massachusetts.

• 6:46Hannah McCarthy?

  I swear. Abigail is at the farm in Braintree, everybody. Braintree, Massachusetts, where Hannah McCarthy grew up. And now Quincy's the city of presidents.

• 6:56Nick Capodice?

  I didn't know that Quincy was the home of the Adamses because in the movie, she says, "The farm here in Braintree is failing. The chickens and the geese have all died."

• 7:04Speaker 06

  It appears the farm here in Braintree is failing, John. The chickens and the geese have all died. The Athens never survived the late.

• 7:15Nick Capodice?

  So John Adams wants independency. Congress says no. Or the Congress is useless. They can't even... There's a big debate about whether they should have the windows open or closed. And if it's because it's so hot in Philadelphia in that summer. And they can't agree on to open the... Because if they open the windows, the flies will all come in. And if they close it, it'll be hot, but it'll keep the flies out. And the point is how inefficacious a Congress is. The line is, John Adams storms in and says, "I've come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a disgrace, that two are called a law firm,

• 7:56Nick Capodice?

  and that three or more become a Congress." And by God, I have had this Congress. For 10 years, King George and his parliament have gulled, collied, and diddled these colonies with their illegal taxes, Stamp Acts, Townshend Acts, Sugar Acts, Tea Acts. I'm almost done. And when we've dared stand up like men, they've stopped our trade, seized our ships, blockaded our ports, burnt our towns, and spilt our blood.

• 8:25Nick Capodice?

  And still, this Congress refuses to grant any of my proposals on independency, even so much as the courtesy of open debate.

• 8:35Nick Capodice?

  The president of the Second Continental Congress was John Hancock. You know him, right?

• 8:41Hannah McCarthy?

  Got a big ol' name.

• 8:42Nick Capodice?

  Big ol'... So Fat George in London can read him without his glasses. John Hancock was like, uh, in the real world, he was a tea smuggler. Like, his whole family was a bunch of tea smugglers from Boston. But anyway, John Hancock is the president of the Continental Congress. Adams and his crew is trying to get independency passed, and they can't do it. And, uh, this... The villain of the movie is John Dickinson from Pennsylvania, who's a loyalist, who's like, "Have you no love for the country that bore you?" For like, Mother England?

• 9:15Speaker 07

  Is that all the pride and affection you can muster for the nation that bore you? For the noblest, most civilized nation on the face of this planet?

• 9:24Nick Capodice?

  There's only 13 colonies. They only need seven votes to declare independency. And they can't do it. Because John Adams is obnoxious and disliked. And John Dickinson is leading the opposition, saying, "No, we shouldn't declare independency." There's only 11 represented colonies at the Congress.

• 9:44Hannah McCarthy?

  Why is that?

• 9:45Nick Capodice?

  Georgia hasn't shown up, and New Jersey hasn't shown up when this movie opens. So, they just need, what? What's the majority of 11? Six? Yeah, six votes, but they can't do it. Uh, and then Georgia shows up, and Georgia is not sure where it wants to stand.

• 10:04Hannah McCarthy?

  Who is that?

• 10:05Nick Capodice?

  Dr. Lyman Hall of Georgia. Dr. Lyman Hall of Georgia, he shows up, and he doesn't know where to go. Doesn't know where to stand. And, uh, Ben Franklin shows up from Pennsylvania.

• 10:16Speaker 08

  Now then, attend, as friend to friend, our Declaration Committee. For us I see immortality. In Philadelphia, city of...

• 10:29Nick Capodice?

  There's three delegates from Pennsylvania in the movie. John Dickinson, who's anti-independence. Uh, Ben Franklin, who is very for independence. Ben Franklin is the second biggest character in the musical, played by Howard De Silva. He's like, the best. He's a very good Franklin. I told my dad, when I grew up, my dream was to be an actor who played Franklin.

• 10:52Hannah McCarthy?

  It's not too late, Nick.

• 10:53Nick Capodice?

  But he was like, "What about, uh, John Adams?" And I was like, "Nope." And he kept noting that all the roles I wanted to play were rather plump old men. He's like, "Don't you want to be like, Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar?" And I was like, "No, I'll be Herod." "That's who I want to, that's who I want to be." But they come upon a plan, which is let someone else in Congress propose, because no one likes John Adams. And they get Richard Henry Lee of Virginia. Richard Henry Lee makes the proposal, and then it's, "Shall we vote yea or nay on the proposal for independence?" And at this time, New York never votes yes or no. They abstain courteously. New York abstains courteously, Mr. Morrison. Why does New York constantly abstain?

• 11:38Nick Capodice?

  So you've got a tied vote, six for independence, six against independence. John Hancock, he's from Massachusetts, he's pro-independence. If they vote, they can get it to pass. As a maneuver, that's, this is actually the part of the movie that I really care about. John Dickinson of Pennsylvania says, "Any vote for independence has to be unanimous." "All thirteen colonies have to say, 'We want to be independent.'" And then it gets to the president, yes or no, and the president says, "It has to be unanimous." And why? Why should the vote for independence be unanimous?

• 12:09Hannah McCarthy?

  Because they envision a future in which these individual colonies will be of one nation.

• 12:17Nick Capodice?

  Yeah. And even more painful, Hancock says, when John Adams is like, "What are you doing? You sunk us." He says, "Can't you see that any colony that doesn't want to be independent will be forced to fight on the side of England? We'll be setting ourselves brother against brother, that our new nation carries on itself the mark of Cain." So then they're like, "Well, if it's got to be unanimous, it's never going to happen." So then, uh, John Adams comes up with a stall. Total stall. "How can we declare independence without having some sort of written declaration?" "Our purposes, goals, ditto, ditto, etc., etc." He's totally stalling. And he says, "Well, we need to get the approval of France or Spain, and such a document would remain consistent with European delicacy."

• 13:03Nick Capodice?

  So they agree to write a declaration. Now, who's going to write it? So the committee of, well, let's see, Livingston, Roger Sherman, Ben Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson. So the committee of five. Jefferson writes it. And then the Declaration is brought here to be debated. And then, uh, the big, the big swing in the musical is that there is a grievance in the Declaration, which was cut out, as anybody who's listened to any of our episodes in the Declaration knows. It was cut out and it was about opposing the slave trade. That King George has done that. The South says, if you don't get rid of that grievance, we're not gonna sign your little piece of paper and independence is gone forever.

• 13:47Speaker 09

  We have no choice, John. The slavery clause has got to go.

• 13:55Nick Capodice?

  Franklin, what are you saying? So John Adams is convinced to tell Jefferson to scratch it out. And then it, there's one more little hurdle. Everybody's finally convinced to become independent, except Pennsylvania, run by John Dickinson. And also, keep in mind, this whole time, Britain is smashing the hell out of us in battles, just destroying General Washington. Every other scene, George Washington's like messenger comes in and brings a missive of terrible news.

• 14:29Speaker 10

  I beseech the Congress to dispatch the War Committee to this place in the hope of restoring some of the order and discipline we need to survive. You're obedient? G. Washington.

• 14:41Nick Capodice?

  But here's, here's another favorite part of mine, is when Adams is just complaining about the South, who's, you know, and Dickinson and all these people. And Ben Franklin says, "These men, no matter what we think of them, are not ribbon clerks to be ordered about. They're elected representatives to Congress. They are like the cream of their colonies. And whether you like it or not, they are to be part of this new nation you hope to create. So learn how to live with them or pack up and go home."

• 15:23Hannah McCarthy?

  We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, that was then, this is now. So what do we do?

• 15:52Nick Capodice?

  Haven't you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing. There are companies called data brokers whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over, so your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once, and they keep working in the background.

• 16:38Nick Capodice?

  You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code CIVICS at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 16:59Nick Capodice?

  Holiday season is coming, and I don't think I have to tell you this might be a tough one because things are expensive in the fall of 2026. Everyone I know is looking for ways to make a little extra money, prowling around the side hustle subreddits. But I will say, if you're looking to sell something, to launch a store fast before the holiday rush, Shopify is the one-stop-shop platform for making a professional-looking store without touching a line of code. You can sell anything, and you can sell it anywhere that people shop online. You can have it done in minutes, and you can launch before Black Friday, that time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy.

• 17:43Nick Capodice?

  So if you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/civics. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first.

• 18:04Hannah McCarthy?

  The older I get, the more I am looking for truly lovable closet staples that I know I will reach for just as often next year as I do right now. I want a closet that doesn't need constant updates or replacements, just high-quality clothes that last, especially the kind with tags that say 100%. As in, 100% Mongolian cashmere, 100% mulberry silk, 100% organic cotton, just like the Quince Fisherman Cropped Cartier I am wearing right this very second. This sweater has kept its shape, color, and softness for years now. I reach for it every single fall, every time I want a warm and elevated look. Quince gives you the quality you expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. Find

• 18:49Hannah McCarthy?

  the fall pieces you will reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was Civics 101. It's a great way to support the show.

• 19:23Hannah McCarthy?

  So it is March of 2026.

• 19:29Nick Capodice?

  Yeah.

• 19:29Hannah McCarthy?

  And we are coming up on the 250th birthday of America. And we're actually in Philadelphia because it's the kickoff to Civic Learning Week, right?

• 19:43Nick Capodice?

  Yeah. It's the National Forum for Civic Learning Week.

• 19:47Hannah McCarthy?

  And we've heard a lot of people talk about the loss of and need for the ability for people who fundamentally disagree to talk to each other specifically in America's democracy. And what you are describing is an insistence that the democracy would never even come about. Not that they necessarily knew what the government was exactly going to look like, and they certainly made a couple of mistakes along the way. But in order to even get to the point where they could start to think about what the government here would be.

• 20:29Hannah McCarthy?

  People who disagreed had to agree on one thing.

• 20:35Nick Capodice?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Nick Capodice?

  To me, it seems bonkers that it happened. Because this required unanimity among a group of men who couldn't agree on anything. But they argued about it, and they talked about it, and they fought about it. There are all these stories of fights in these halls, walking sticks and stuff. But that they actually got together for this one thing, this really scary thing. This thing that was signing their own death warrant, their own trip to the gallows for treason. We say it over and over, but it is true. Like, the reason we're here is because people are able to talk about something and disagree immensely, but then actually get somewhere.

• 21:28Hannah McCarthy?

  And because despite there being some people who didn't necessarily want to talk, or who wanted to leave other people out of the conversation, there were other people who said, "No. Look, we gotta do this together. You have to talk to that guy. You have to." There were voices of reason and of power and influence who used their power and influence toward communication even within fundamental disagreements.

• 22:10Nick Capodice?

  There's even a part, Dr. Hall of Georgia is wrestling with whether or not to vote for independence. And initially, he's like, "I can't decide. The people are against it, and I'm for it," is what he says. And he's like, "Until I can figure out why I'm here and what that means, I'm gonna lean a little on their side." And then, penultimate scene of the movie, he comes in the middle of the night and says, "I couldn't sleep, I was thinking about something I'd read," was that, I'm gonna get the quote wrong, but like, "when a man represents people, he doesn't just give them his industry, he gives them his judgment. And he betrays them if he does something thinking about what they want. It's his job as a representative."

• 22:53Hannah McCarthy?

  To be paternalistic.

• 22:55Nick Capodice?

  And then he says, "That was written by Edmund Burke, member of the British Parliament." And he slides the vote over from nay to yea.

• 23:13Nick Capodice?

  I grew up star-spangled, mostly because of this movie. I love America. I really, I love the people, I love these teachers we just talked to, I love the idea of America, I love the foundations of the Declaration, I love that all men are created equal, even though they weren't. I am not loving it so much right now. I think what I'm feeling right now is because I'm looking, I'm sitting outside of this hall and I'm not feeling a swell in my stomach and a knot in my heart. Right now, it feels like I maybe don't love

• 23:55Nick Capodice?

  America. But I know that's not true. I love so much of it, and I love these ideals, which maybe weren't held to for, what, 100 till 1960s, basically. But I'm, I'm feeling very hurt. I'm feeling hurt by America. And I'm like spurning it. It's like someone who hurt me, and I'm like, "Well, if you're gonna be that way, you don't get my love." That makes me really sad.

• 24:37Nick Capodice?

  Do you feel like ever like, is it worth, is it worth fighting for?

• 24:41Hannah McCarthy?

  I know that it is.

• 24:44Hannah McCarthy?

  And...

• 24:48Hannah McCarthy?

  So I guess my father had never heard "White Flag" by Dido before.

• 24:52Nick Capodice?

  I had never heard "White Flag."

• 24:54Hannah McCarthy?

  That's true, that's true. And the other day, he said he heard this song with these lyrics. "I will go down with this ship. I won't put my hands up and surrender. There will be no white flag above my door. I'm in love and always will be." And I was like, "Dad, that is Dido? You've never heard that before?" And...

• 25:18Hannah McCarthy?

  That's how I feel.

• 25:26Hannah McCarthy?

  You know, I, I think that you don't turn your back on it. You just keep going, keep...

• 25:38Hannah McCarthy?

  Saying out loud what is at the core of all of this. And, and if everyone stops believing in it, I'll be the madman in town. But I'm willing to be.

• 25:56Nick Capodice?

  You're gonna be the madman in the town who's saying, "I hold these truths to be self-evident. Don't forget. Don't forget, this is the Constitution. These are how, this is how things actually operate." And people are just saying to you, "Yeah, but that's not how it really works, right?"

• 26:13Hannah McCarthy?

  I actually, when I look at this building, and I am reminded of the people who wrote the words upon which American democracy was based. I, I feel a call to action, you know? I feel voices from 250 years ago. Or even more so, I feel like I can feel their eyes on me.

• 26:42Hannah McCarthy?

  "Look what we gave you, doofus." You know?

• 26:46Nick Capodice?

  The longest constitutional, the longest-running constitutional republic in the world?

• 26:53Nick Capodice?

  Look what we gave you, Ding Dong. Figure it out, dummy.

• 26:59Nick Capodice?

  But soon as you started singing Dido Hannah, really, though, I kind of regretted what I said earlier. Like, of course it's worth fighting for.

• 27:15Speaker 10

  As I write these words, the enemy is plainly in sight beyond the river. How it will end only Providence can direct.

• 27:26Speaker 10

  But dear God, what brave men

• 27:32Speaker 10

  I shall lose

• 27:36Speaker 10

  before this business

• 27:43Speaker 10

  ends.

• 27:48Speaker 10

  Your obedient?

• 27:53Speaker 10

  G. Washington.

• 28:10Hannah McCarthy?

  You might have heard that we are approaching America's 250th birthday, which will be celebrated on July 4th, 2026. Now, Civics 101 Stans will, of course, know that the Second Continental Congress unanimously voted for independence from Great Britain on July 2nd. Edited the Declaration for two days, approved the edits, sent it to John Dunlap to print it. On July 8th, Colonel John Nixon of Pennsylvania read it out loud in Independence Square. A bunch of delegates signed it on August 8th, and the last signature happened sometime in early 1777. And you'll probably know that John Adams' that July 2nd would long be celebrated. Quote, "I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival." Well, sorry, John.

• 28:55Hannah McCarthy?

  It's the 4th. Maybe one day we'll put you on standard-issue currency. Anyway, in anticipation of making it through a full 250 years, Civics 101 will spend the next months sharing stories that explore where we came from, how we got here, what that means, and why it matters. Stay tuned for our series celebrating America's 250th birthday.

• 29:20Hannah McCarthy?

  We do love it. It is worth fighting for.

• 29:29Hannah McCarthy?

  This episode was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy, with Nick Capodice. Marina Hanke is our producer. Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer. Music in this episode comes from Epidemic Sound and the streets of Philadelphia. You can find many, many stories and lessons about this nation of ours at our website, civics101podcast.org. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.

• 30:19Speaker 11

  What does it really take to start a startup? I'm David Rosenko, entrepreneur, investor, and the host of Leap Forward. In each episode, I go behind the scenes with successful founders and someone who knew them before they were famous: their college roommate, their first employee, or their mom. To hear the sometimes uncomfortable, but very real, inside stories of how companies actually get built. Companies like Reddit, Airbnb, or Twitch. Listen to the new season of Leap Forward for never-before-heard stories behind the world's most iconic companies.