Safe to Drink

Introducing “Safe to Drink:” A New Hampshire town finds out its water has been contaminated by a chemical. The most basic question — whether the water is safe to drink — doesn’t have a clear answer. Nobody seems to know much about this so-called forever chemical, which is weird because… this has all happened before. From the Document team at New Hampshire Public Radio, "Safe to Drink" is a four-part series about the water contamination story that keeps repeating in town after town — and about the people who fought for answers through a maze of chemistry, regulations, and illnesses. Listen to all the episodes right here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:50Speaker 02

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• 1:16Nick Capodice?

  This is Civics 101 from NHPR. I'm Nikita Diye. One thing you'll hear us say on the show often is that civics isn't just a concept. It's not just part of your social studies curriculum. Civics is how we live our lives. What drives us to act when something is wrong in our communities? What drives us to vote? To protest? To show up at municipal meetings and speak directly to your government? That's why we're bringing you this story today. It is the first episode of a new podcast from NHPR's document team called Safe to Drink. All four episodes are available right now and we've put a link to the series in the show notes if you want to hear more.

• 1:59Nick Capodice?

  The podcast is about PFAS chemicals. These chemicals are everywhere. They're hard to understand and certainly hard to grapple with when you find out that you or your family or your whole neighborhood may have been exposed to what people call forever chemicals in your drinking water. Imagine how you'd react. Would you ask questions? Would you take action? Would you show up and speak up? If you would... That's civics, and there are people in this story who did just that. Let's dive in.

• 2:37Speaker 04

  Ben Pierce was driving home. He'd just dropped his kid off at daycare and he noticed something kind of odd.

• 2:44Speaker 05

  I remember coming down High Range Road and passing one of the neighbor's houses up on High Range Road and they were getting a water delivery.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Like cases and cases of bottled water, the kind of delivery you'd see at a convenience store.

• 2:58Speaker 05

  And I remember just thinking like, wow, they really love the bottled water. They're like, I'm surprised that they have like special delivery of bottled water to their house.

• 3:07Speaker 04

  Ben's family had just moved to Londonderry, a town in southern New Hampshire, in the summer of 2019. Now it was October. Ben was still new in town. The water thing was weird, but whatever. He kept driving.

• 3:22Speaker 05

  And I came around the circle and I drove down to our house and sitting right in our driveway was a whole massive pallet of water. No explanation, no delivery person. It was just sitting there in the driveway.

• 3:41Speaker 04

  Later, Ben did the math. Someone had delivered roughly 2,700 gallons of water to his house.

• 3:50Speaker 05

  There wasn't like a note? There was nothing, no. And I just, I assumed it had to be a mistake.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  Ben remembered the delivery truck he saw. He decided to try and catch up to it.

• 4:00Speaker 05

  So I, I hopped back in the car and I drove around the block and I said, hey, I don't know if you made a mistake, but there's all this water in our driveway. We didn't order any water. And he kind of sheepishly said like, oh, you know, you don't know about this?

• 4:21Speaker 04

  For a lot of people, the Pierces, me, maybe you, tap water is a given, like the sky being blue or pavement being solid. Turning on the tap is a reflex, almost like breathing. We do it when we shower, fill the coffee pot, boil pasta, when we brush our teeth. After the surprise delivery, Ben made a few calls. And he discovered that the water he and his family had been using for months had something in it, something that made it unsafe to drink or to cook with, something you couldn't boil out.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  So instead of turning on the tap, they started cracking open plastic bottles. They explained to their two young kids, "Don't drink out of the faucet. Don't even use it to rinse your toothbrush." One of the things Ben worried most about was the teeth brushing, especially with his three-year-old, Kinsey.

• 5:22Speaker 05

  You know, it was a lot for her to just even manage a tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush. So to then ask her to unscrew a cap and pour a little bit of water on her toothbrush and then, you know, I really didn't think they'd be able to do it as kids.

• 5:39Speaker 04

  They still used the tap for showering, but tried hard not to get the water in their mouths. They still used the sink for washing plates, but dried them off extra carefully. Their son, Parker, was seven at the time.

• 5:52Speaker 06

  Probably the most inconvenient part about it is remembering to tell people that haven't been here before. Because like, it's not like we're just kind of used to it. But like, if I have friends over that haven't been over before, then we have to like, remember to tell them that they can't drink the water.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  It's been more than six years since the first pallet of water showed up in the Pierce's driveway. Parker is almost a high schooler now. And they still can't drink the water from their faucets.

• 6:26Speaker 05

  I really don't think that day that I realized that it was a life-changing event. You know, like, I knew it was a big deal. Like, you knew that it was gonna change the house and the home value. And like, you had all the panic, but you didn't realize that, like, as of this date, your whole existence is gonna change.

• 6:58Speaker 04

  How did this happen? What led to that water delivery at the Pierce's' house? That's what I've been trying to figure out for a few years now. What I found is a story about people who get stuck in the middle of something that doesn't feel right. And I started thinking, why are all these people always sick? You know what? Because in a smaller community like this, you know what the neighbor has for illnesses. Who have to find their own way through a maze of chemical companies, government regulations, and the limits of science. When there's no answers, you're just like, oh, okay, I just dealt a really bad hand, you know? It's always gray, and people hate gray, right? But the world of a scientist is a gray world.

• 7:41Speaker 04

  It's a story about the water in your faucet and the beginning of a problem that could last forever. From the document team at New Hampshire Public Radio, I'm Mara Hoplomazian. This is Safe to Drink.

• 8:17Nick Capodice?

  Haven't you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing. There are companies called data brokers whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over, so your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once, and they keep working in the background.

• 9:02Nick Capodice?

  You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code civics at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 9:24Nick Capodice?

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• 10:07Nick Capodice?

  So if you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first.

• 10:28Nick Capodice?

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• 11:41Speaker 04

  It's March 2016, three years before Ben Pierce chased his water-delivery driver down the street, and we're one town over from where Ben's family lives, in Merrimack. Merrimack is like a lot of other places in southern New Hampshire. There are industrial buildings fanning out from the center of town, and a main drag with a park, a library, a few places where you can get steak for dinner. On this night, tons of people are filing into a school gym, filling up the chairs that have been set up on a basketball court.

• 12:15Speaker 06

  DES is here, as well as a number of the towns.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  State officials called this meeting. They had just announced that something had been detected in Merrimack's drinking water, a chemical called PFOA, perfluoroctanoic acid. They knew people would have questions.

• 12:38Speaker 04

  I wasn't in Merrimack that night. I didn't even live in New Hampshire in 2016. But I've been watching the aftermath of this night unfold since I started working as a reporter here. There's a recording of the night on YouTube. The room has the atmosphere of a town meeting. It's an annual tradition in New Hampshire.

• 12:56Speaker 06

  I'm going to remind you that, just like at town meeting, we have Merrimack manners. You guys have always been good about this. I want to remind you that we're still under those rules.

• 13:08Speaker 04

  Town meetings can be kind of sleepy. A couple dozen dedicated citizens showing up to vote on how much to spend on the sewer system, or whether to cut down and sell trees from a town-owned forest. But on this night, the room is absolutely packed. People bring in extra chairs for the crowd, but there still aren't enough. Eventually, the walls are lined with people standing. Everyone is looking around at each other, whispering to their neighbors. It seems tense.

• 13:37Nick Capodice?

  This is not a situation that any of us wanted. And I want to assure you that we here are as concerned about this as you are.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  For an hour, state officials in suits give a presentation about this chemical that was found in the water, PFOA. A screen behind them ticks through slides full of acronyms, diagrams, color-coded maps. They explain that this chemical is used to help manufacture Teflon products, and that it's part of a bigger family of chemicals, per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances, nicknamed PFAS. They don't occur naturally, they're man-made.

• 14:19Speaker 05

  As Mike said, my name is Dr. Chan. I'm with the New Hampshire Division of Public Health.

• 14:25Speaker 04

  New Hampshire's state epidemiologist Ben Chan tells the crowd these chemicals are in stuff we use all the time. Microwave popcorn bags, fast food wrappers, clothing. He says basically everywhere scientists have looked, they've found these man-made chemicals in the environment. But officials say the levels in the water in Merrimack are higher than the background levels. Even though PFOA is everywhere, it doesn't really seem like anyone knows very much about it. Chan calls it an "emerging contaminant."

• 15:00Speaker 06

  So, the big question here is what does finding PFOA in the water mean for our health, your health, the health of your loved ones? The quick answer is that the long-term health effects are really unclear.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  "The long-term health effects are really unclear," he says. Researchers are still studying them. There's a list of potential health effects in really small type up on the big screen.

• 15:29Speaker 06

  To show you the types of health effects that are being studied.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Liver enzyme levels, total cholesterol, uric acid, sex hormones, thyroid hormones, immune function, obesity, birth weight, kidney function, diabetes, cancers.

• 15:42Speaker 06

  Kidney cancer, prostate cancer.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  But Chan says the studies aren't all coming to the same conclusions. They're difficult to interpret.

• 15:51Speaker 06

  What do these ultimately mean for a person's health? And the answer is, we still don't know.

• 15:56Speaker 04

  And here's where things seem to get even more confusing. The officials tell the crowd they don't really know what levels of this chemical are safe to drink. But they're also saying, for most people, including everyone on the public water system, there's no reason to believe it's unsafe to drink.

• 16:27Speaker 06

  This is why it's very uncomfortable for us being involved in this project because we usually have a clearly articulated standard that's enforceable under the Safe Drinking Water Act, that's been fully vetted by all the toxicologists and physicians to make sure that it's a safe and protective number. We don't have that right now, so we're using the best information we have to make a decision in the interim here about who we're going to provide bottled water to.

• 16:55Speaker 04

  In 2016, federal regulators hadn't set a legal limit for PFOA in drinking water. The officials say New Hampshire has set its own limit out of, quote, "an abundance of caution." And people in Merrimack with TAPS testing higher than the state's limit would start getting bottled water delivered to their houses.

• 17:20Speaker 04

  Bring the mic up so you don't have to... After they finished their presentation, officials opened up the floor for questions. Everyone gets three minutes to speak.

• 17:28Speaker 06

  My wife is currently pregnant. Are there any extra precautions that she needs to be taking?

• 17:35Speaker 00

  ...down and get into the ground system. For those of us who have gardens and are feeding our children from them, are the plants absorbing the PFOAs or do we know that? You know, animals and stuff, fishing and everything else, are they safe to consume?

• 17:51Speaker 04

  For hunters? The meeting drags on into the night. And over and over again, the people up on stage don't really have answers.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  We don't know exactly what that level is. We don't know what the levels of exposure that we're seeing.

• 18:05Speaker 06

  There's a lot we don't know yet. We're still trying to put the pieces in this puzzle together.

• 18:07Speaker 05

  I don't know what the levels in the pond are.

• 18:09Speaker 06

  We don't know what that's... I don't know the answer. We don't know we're taking... Sorry, we're gonna have a frustrating answer on that. We don't know. We only know what we know from the recent...

• 18:16Speaker 00

  And if we don't know, why are you not telling us that we shouldn't be drinking the water? Can I drink the water? Can my pregnant patients drink the water?

• 18:25Speaker 04

  The question that sticks with me most from this meeting came from a woman who had lived in Merrimack for almost 30 years. She told the crowd her husband had recently died of prostate cancer.

• 18:37Speaker 06

  My husband was a big water drinker. Tap water. He liked it room temperature. And my concern is, I was the one that gave him that water to drink. I don't know if I killed my husband. And that's my feeling right now. I don't know what to do about it now.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  The gym emptied out after almost four hours. But there still seemed to be more questions than answers. What was this chemical? How did it get into Merrimack's water? What was it doing to people's bodies? And what next?

• 19:34Speaker 06

  Something and somebody has to be responsible for this.

• 19:57Nick Capodice?

  Haven't you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing. There are companies called data brokers, whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over, so your info doesn't just pop right back up.

• 20:39Nick Capodice?

  You set it up once, and they keep working in the background. You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code CIVICS at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 21:04Nick Capodice?

  Holiday season is coming, and I don't think I have to tell you this might be a tough one because things are expensive in the fall of 2026. Everyone I know is looking for ways to make a little extra money prowling around the side hustle subreddits. But I will say, if you're looking to sell something to launch a store fast before the holiday rush, Shopify is the one stop shop platform for making a professional looking store without touching a line of code. You can sell anything and you can sell it anywhere that people shop online. You can have it done in minutes and you can launch before Black Friday, that time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So if you're ready

• 21:48Nick Capodice?

  to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/civics to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/civics. Just go to Shopify.com/civics today to hear your first.

• 22:09Speaker 00

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• 22:38Speaker 04

  From the start, suspicion fell on a local factory owned by the Saint Gobain Corporation. It was actually this factory that detected PFOA in the Meramec water supply when they tested their own taps. That water was coming from the town's supply. So when the company found PFOA in that water, they reported it to the state. Saint Gobain was familiar with PFOA. They used it at the factory. But in letters to town officials, Saint Gobain said they believed other sources, like a local landfill, caused the contamination. The company was basically saying, sure, their tests found PFOA in the town's water, but it wasn't their fault.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  Saint-Gobain is a massive French manufacturing company, one of the oldest companies in the world. By the way, a lot of people who worked there call it Saint-Gobain. I'm going to say Saint-Gobain, since that's how most people say it in Merrimack. The Merrimack plant was huge, and a pretty big employer in town. But to Saint-Gobain, it was a tiny star in a big, global constellation. There's a very good chance you've ridden in a car with a Saint-Gobain windshield, or been in a building with Saint-Gobain siding, or roofing, or insulation. In Merrimack, they were making coated fabrics. Coated fabrics. It doesn't sound that exciting, but the stuff they were making, it was kind of amazing.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Think of all the things that make a material useful. Lightweight, resistant to fire, and water, and sun. These fabrics could do it all. Workers at the plant made those coated fabrics, and then turned them into stuff like grill sheets for fast-food restaurants, and super durable suits for emergency responders. Right before Saint-Gobain bought the factory, it was owned by a different company, called Chemfab. The plant had a few minutes of fame after they made fabric for a huge dome that was built in London, to celebrate the millennium. The Dome at Greenwich, the biggest dome in the world, and the first wonder of the new millennium.

• 24:57Speaker 07

  So, everybody was like, whoa, you know, look at this, the Millennial Dome. This is really cool.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  This is Lorraine Allen, Merrimack resident since 1985. I'm not sure what determines who becomes an activist. Some drive for fairness, or a special brand of persistence. But whatever that thing is, Lorraine has it.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  For her, this all started on her couch. She was watching the local public TV station. They were broadcasting a meeting about the PFOA contamination. She remembers how state officials couldn't, or maybe wouldn't, answer most people's questions.

• 25:39Speaker 07

  I'm picking up this arrogant, a little mansplaining, a little... they were patronizing some of them, and I know that. As a female in my generation, I know when somebody's saying, "There, there, dear, don't worry about it, the men have this under control." I recognize that feel, and I immediately say, "Something's going on here. Something's going on here."

• 26:02Speaker 04

  Lorraine felt unsettled. One of the things officials said was that these chemicals had been in use since the 1940s. She was like, "What do you mean? We don't know anything about them?" So she started spending her free time researching. By 2016, you could find a lot about PFOA with a Google search. There were health studies, news stories, lawsuits. Lorraine began breaking a central rule of her sleep routine: no electronics upstairs. She started bringing her iPad to bed.

• 26:34Speaker 07

  So the more you're going down Alice in Wonderland's crazy world at a late time at night, when everybody else is sleeping, and you're going, "Oh, my freaking word." And you feel like you're the only one who knows this, but somebody has to know it. But is anybody connecting all the dots?

• 26:55Speaker 04

  Lorraine's a therapist, not a scientist. But she felt her brain begin to work like an encyclopedia, rattling off facts and acronyms that she didn't even realize she'd learned. And she had a clear feeling: this stuff, PFOA, it really doesn't seem like it's safe to drink. So why were officials saying it was fine? Lorraine and a few other Merrimack residents started hosting meetings about the water at the town library, and sometimes at Lorraine's house. One of the other people who showed up was Wendy Thomas. We live in New Hampshire. We have got mountains, we've got lakes, you know, our water is beautiful.

• 27:39Speaker 04

  I never, it never occurred to me that our water would be contaminated. It just never occurred to me. Wendy raised six kids in Merrimack. By 2016, she already had experience with local activism. She'd organized to stop a gas pipeline from coming through town. But she didn't know anything about PFOA. That is, until she heard Lorene talk about it at one of those library meetings. Boy, she knows her stuff. And she just rattled off all of these acronyms and all of these facts. And I was, I was like, wow. She remembers coming home from one of those meetings and telling her husband, "We need to get our well tested."

• 28:28Speaker 04

  Their house wasn't on public water. Like about half of people in New Hampshire, Wendy's family got their water from a private well on their property. But getting tested was complicated. Wendy's house was about three miles from St. Gobain's Merrimack plant. The state was focusing their testing on wells within a mile and a half of the plant. Wendy and Lorene were skeptical of that radius. To them, it seemed like the state was saying, "Anyone further away doesn't need to be concerned about this." Even my husband was like, "The state says it's safe." You know, we, and I was like, "I don't care. We're testing our water."

• 29:18Speaker 04

  Okay, let's step back for a moment. Maybe you've heard the saying, "The dose makes the poison." Doses of PFOA are measured in parts per trillion. You're going to hear parts per trillion a lot in this podcast. Sorry. The comparison used most often is that one part per trillion is like a droplet in about 20 Olympic-sized swimming pools. It's like one second in 31,546 years. Tiny, right? But you know what they say about the little things. Remember, at the time all this was going down in Merrimack, the US Environmental Protection Agency didn't have official regulations or limits

• 30:02Speaker 04

  for how much PFOA could be in drinking water. But they did put out some guidance. It shifted around over the course of 2016, from 400 parts per trillion to 70 parts per trillion. In Merrimack, St. Gobain's PFOA testing on the town's public water was coming back at about 30 parts per trillion. So, all good, right? But next door in Vermont, their standard was 20 parts per trillion. That was confusing. Then, there's the fact that PFOA bioaccumulates. That means it builds up in your body over time if you keep ingesting it. Like a bathtub with a clogged drain.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  With a steady drip, the tub eventually fills up. That's part of how PFOA and the family of PFAS chemicals like it got their nickname: forever chemicals. They stick around in human bodies for a really long time. So, it matters not just how much PFOA is in your water, but how long you've been drinking it. And before 2016, the EPA's guidelines were only for short-term exposure, not for water you'd drink over the course of a lifetime.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  For people not on the public water system in Merrimack, things were even more confusing. When the state started testing private wells within a mile of the St. Gobain plant, some of those levels were coming in much higher than the town, at 190, 360, 820 parts per trillion. St. Gobain agreed to pay for bottled water or other solutions for houses that tested over the guidelines the EPA was using. As for Wendy, her well tested at 40 parts per trillion, so well under the EPA's guidance of 70, but double Vermont's limit of 20. Wendy told her kids not to use the taps.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  They started drinking bottled water and installed two kinds of filtration systems. Altogether, she was out more than $5,000.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  Water contamination isn't the kind of fiasco that happens all at once. Months went by. The state and St. Gobain were negotiating. Many families were living on bottled water. Merrimack was trying to get the chemical out of its public water. As the town tried to figure out their treatment options, they shut down the public wells testing highest for PFOA and kept others testing at lower levels online. For everyone on the public system, the word was, "It was still safe to drink." It seemed like people started settling into loose camps. There were some who trusted the official word, said, "Hey, I've been drinking the water. I'm fine."

• 33:12Speaker 04

  The other camp, Lorraine, Wendy, and their friends, said, "No, we need to do something." They started showing up to local government meetings, trying to get people to take their concerns seriously.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  And it was mostly driven by women. There were some men in this initial advocacy group. But we were hysterical women. We were fear mongers. We were, you know, going to drive down the property rates in Merrimack. We were going to, you know, force businesses out of Merrimack. You know, we had better shut up if we know what's good for us.

• 33:43Speaker 04

  At one town council meeting, several councilors told Lorraine's group they shouldn't say the town had contaminated water.

• 33:51Speaker 07

  Old guy, don't say the word contamination. It's inflammatory language.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  And you better believe, from then on, I only use the word contamination, because that's what it was. It is contaminated.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  Another council member basically said, "This isn't an Erin Brockovich situation."

• 34:07Speaker 07

  I continue to drink the water. My wife does. My daughter does. My dogs do. Okay?

• 34:13Speaker 04

  Town councilors were worried about jumping to conclusions. They were worried about the town getting a reputation. The last thing I want to do is scare anybody and overreact to something we need to deal with, but not... Not to the point where we're going to scare anybody.

• 34:35Speaker 04

  From where I sit, here in the future, there's something eerie about looking back at this moment, this fight about the contamination, even the word contamination in 2017. Eerie because all of this had already happened before. This unprecedented emerging contamination, it had already played out in another community 100 miles away. Like two towns putting on the same theater production. The set looked a little different, the cast was local, but the script, the themes, the choreography, they were mostly the same. The plays are

• 35:19Speaker 04

  so similar that in this other town, the person playing the role of Loreen, a local resident turned activist, is also named Loreen.

• 35:31Speaker 06

  I'm not an activist, but I was pissed off. I was beyond angry, knowing that now this was done to us.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  That's next on Safe to Drink.

• 35:50Nick Capodice?

  To hear the next three episodes right now, search for Safe to Drink wherever you get your podcasts. There's also a link to the whole podcast in the show notes. Safe to Drink is a production of the Document team at New Hampshire Public Radio. It was reported by Amara Hoplomazian with additional reporting and production by Jason Moon. It was edited by Daniela Ali and Katie Culinary with help from Dan Baric, Rebecca Lavoy, Taylor Quimby, Elena Eberwine, and Lau Guzman. Fact checking by Danya Suliman. Legal review by Jerry Eggleton. And music by Jason Moon. Our Civics 101 team is me, Nick Capodice, along with my co-host Hannah McCarthy, Rebecca Lavoy, our executive producer and head of the podcast team. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio. All right.

• 36:49Speaker 06

  What does it really take to start a startup? I'm David Rosenko, entrepreneur, investor, and the host of Leap Forward. In each episode, I go behind the scenes with successful founders and someone who knew them before they were famous: their college roommate, their first employee, or their mom. To hear the sometimes uncomfortable, but very real inside stories of how companies actually get built. Companies like Reddit, Airbnb, or Twitch. Listen to the new season of Leap Forward for never-before-heard stories behind the world's most iconic companies.

• 37:22Speaker 02

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• 37:45Speaker 02

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