Jobs Utopia or Fiasco?

Joel, Chad , and Emi break down the intersection of AI recruitment technology, global labor markets, and industry regulation, alongside pop culture banter and sports highlights. Key Topics Covered:Pop Culture & Fantasy Football: Reactions to Steve Ballmer's retro Microsoft commercials and NBA ban, US Open tennis highlights, and fantasy football draft grades. HR Tech & Startups: Spotlights on Sonic Jobs' LLM integrations, Hackajob's Archer agent rebranding following a 3x ARR increase, and previews of global HR events. The H-1B & Union Debate: A look at how H-1B visa restrictions drive different hiring behaviors. Jobs Report Reality Check: An analysis of August's 162,000 job additions, against structural economic shifts, immigration, and tariff impacts. AI Compliance & Job Board Evolution: The European crackdown on fully automated management illustrated by Uber's €825 million Dutch fine, and what the closure of Guardian Jobs signals for traditional recruitment advertising.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Meet Dave. Dave's resume says he's customer centric, a point of sale systems expert and a people leader. Reality check, Dave's resume was written by AI and AI applied to thousands of jobs while Dave was on his couch binging episodes of Jackass all day.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  How can you insert trust back into your hiring process? One word, Tatio. Tatio cuts through the BS by using real world job simulations, testing candidates so you can actually see how they perform the job before you waste a single minute interviewing or onboarding a fake. Insert trust back into your hiring process with Tatio. Check out Tatio today at T A T I O dot I O. That's T A T I O dot I O.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  But my shout out goes out to personally my favorite porn star and part-time industry expert.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  There we go. Hung Lee, Hung Lee.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  Hung Lee.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Follow that, follow that.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Come on, Emmy.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  I don't think I can. You know what's actually going through my head? Just like hung like a donkey, you know?

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:12Speaker 03

  I mean, terrible.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  What goes through my head is hung like a donkey.

• 1:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  Donkey show me.

• 1:19Speaker 03

  Hung like a donkey, Lee.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  Come on, just slam an iron brew and let's do this, boys.

• 1:25Speaker 04

  Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Soash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's Tom for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah. Too much riz, aura and drip for one podcast. Yet here we are. Hey kids, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel. I'm ready for some football, Cheeseman.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  This is Chad. Screw the iron brew. I'm slamming a Guinness. So wash.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  And I'm Emmy. Just call me the carnival queen, Beretigo.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Ooh, that's good moves.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  And on this episode of HR's most dangerous podcast, the state of labor, the state of jobs and the state of Holland. Wait a minute, is that a state? I guess, I guess we'll figure it out. Let's do this. It's commercial time.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Okay, face it. Recruitment marketing is broken. 70% of paid recruitment media goes wasted. 93% of candidates bounce off your job ads before they even apply for the job. And this is not a talent problem. No, it's not a data problem. It's a targeting and experience problem. The beauty of this is companies aren't trying to fix it. They're transforming it.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  With up to 80% more high-quality applicants, 40% reduction in spend and 50% less recruiter time spent, they're realizing what's possible with recruitment marketing that actually works. So how'd they do it? Well, they chose Jovio, an AI-led, high-performance recruitment marketing platform built to eliminate waste and drive more results. With Jovio's AI agents, your job ads reach the right candidates while your career site, conversational AI and application process drive better candidates and conversions. What about those qualified candidates you've already bought and paid for and they're wasting away in your ATS? Well, Jovio also re-engages them.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  Want to learn more about Jovio? Cool. Just go to jovio.com. That's J O V E O dot com. It's showtime. Okay, dude. The whole Clippers thing I've been seeing from outside the US.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  The LA Clippers, NBA basketball, just for the international audience. We know Emmy brings a lot of internationals when she's on.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a good call. That's a good call. I don't know much about what's going on other than like, you know, they're trying to feed Kawhi Leonard money under the table, that kind of stuff. But what, what I was interested in is I was in my threads and I saw this news and I saw this old commercial of Steve Ballmer. Now, Steve Ballmer is the owner and he is actually banned. He's banned from the NBA for a year. They got, they got nailed with five first round draft picks what they can't have anymore. But this, I wanted, I wanted us to have a little nostalgia. So show, show that video, Cheeseman.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. By the way, I love that your threads algo is giving you Steve Ballmer videos while mine gets, you know, busty Latinas and bug fights. All right, let's, let's watch some Steve, Steve Ballmer, everybody.

• 4:45Speaker 05

  This advanced operating environment is worth. Wait just one minute before you answer. Watch as Windows integrates Lotus 123 with Miami Vice. Now we can take this Ferrari and paste it right into Windows 10. Now, how much do you think Microsoft Windows is worth? Don't answer. Wait and see. Windows 10 and Windows 10 Paint and to listen to what else you get at no extra charge. The MS DOS executive, an appointment calendar, a card file, a notepad, a clock, a control panel, a terminal, a principal, a RAM driver and can you believe it? Reversie. That's right. All these features in Reversie, all for just, how much did you guess?

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Tell me, Steve.

• 5:23Speaker 05

  500? A thousand? Even more? No, it's just $99. That's right. $99. It's an incredible value, but it's true. It's Windows from Microsoft. Order today. P O Box 286 D R S.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  286 DOS.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  Except in Nebraska. I fucking love that. Now, kids, Steve Ballmer, if you don't know Steve Ballmer, look him up. But he was one of the, one of the first, I think, 30 employees at Microsoft. He worked his way up.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  He was CEO for a long time.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  Oh, hold on a second. He was actually a CEO. I thought he was just.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  CEO or CEO? I mean, he was basically running the show. He was, he was the face of Microsoft.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, he was.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  I thought he was a hired actor.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  No, no. And if you watch any of these like old videos of them like launching things on stage, it'll be him, Bill Gates and some of the other executives, the most nerdy motherfuckers known to man and they're dancing.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Well, there's one where he's, he's sweating out of his clothes. I mean, he's just a sweaty mess.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Mess, yes.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  Have you not just been interviewed by him? And you'd be like, uh, no.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  No, no. Well, I mean.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  There's also a great interview when the iPhone came out and how he talks about how it's going to be a massive failure for Apple, which is historically been fun for him.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  That's what the BlackBerry guys thought too.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Frankly, as a, as a Browns fan, the Deshaun Watson trade is arguably the worst deal in history. This, this mess up is pretty, is pretty up there. So I'm glad that he's taken some spotlight with football season coming and Deshaun being named the starter this year that the Clippers are getting a little heat from the media.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  It's, it's sports season. I love it.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Sports. I love it. Love it. It's September, October is the best time for me. Like you get college football's back, premier league, which I'm embracing. We got, I know you're not a baseball guy, but you got the playoffs in October. You got the weather, little chill in the weather. Yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  It's US open time, man. I love me some US open.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  You're the tennis guy. What's going on?

• 7:35Speaker 00

  Fucking love it. So last night Francis Tiafoe was down two sets, came back. It took, it was four hours and 39 minutes. That's how long the match lasted. And then, and then Ben Shelton, another American, played number two Carlos Alvarez. Everybody loves this kid. He's just fucking amazing. He beat him. Shelton beat Alvarez in four hours and 28 minutes. It ended at 3:30 AM in New York. I got up this morning. I had coffee here in, in Portugal and I watched the end of the match.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  Oh my God.

• 8:09Speaker 00

  Fucking crazy. It was.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  Four hours of just playing tennis.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Yes. I got up, I looked at my phone. I noticed that it was still going live. I'm like, holy shit. I turned it on, had a coffee, watched, watched the rest of it. It was amazing.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  How'd you keep playing for that long?

• 8:23Speaker 00

  That's, that's a sport, Emmy. That's what you do. I mean, you know, netballers don't have that kind of, you know, resilience, uh, but.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  Excuse me?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  I'm an athlete, my dear. I am an athlete. We have speed. We don't need endurance.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Or ball handling skills.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  This is why, this is why penalty kicks should not be a thing. Let them play until somebody scores. Like, let them, let them go, man. I mean, like.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  I do like to play, take the player off scenario. That's pretty cool.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Take a player off every 15 minutes till he's, yeah, I think, I mean, penalty kicks I've learned to appreciate as I watch the sport more. I hate it as, as a strictly American sports fan, but.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  It keeps you on the edge of your seat, though. I mean, it really does, because anybody could.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  It's very theatrical.

• 9:12Speaker 03

  It is very like, oh. Anyone, yes, ooh, but everyone can win and is never usually the, not always, the team that should actually win. And it's just like, it's just luck. And I hate it.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  The team that should win, I mean, if you were the team that should win, you shouldn't have been able to go all the way through and not score a fucking goal. Or, or this lesser team, you allowed them to, you know, to score just as many goals as you did. So that's your fault.

• 9:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  I get it. I get it.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  I do like the hockey. I like the hockey one on one. That's pretty fucking cool, too.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Sudden death, historically, some of the best games ever, you know, a team scores and it's over. And these teams are just beating each other up. The Ice Bowl, Green Bay, and like, historically, it's just been really, really good.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  We're talking about it. Let's do it now. Let's do the fantasy football grades now.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Oh, you want to write this fantasy football? Okay. Geez, let's, let's just go right to it.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  I'm so excited. Even though I don't know what my grade was, because I was sleeping while we.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Skipping ahead, we're, we're confusing the regular listeners. We're confused. We've, we've split up shout outs. Okay. Uh, all right, guys. It's fantasy football time. So excited. It's one of my favorite things we do each year. Uh, Factory Fix, year three or four that they've sponsored this. Uh, Fantasy Draft was last night and we get grades. We get our grades. So 12 people are playing. Um, Chad auto drafts because he's, he's asleep, which he should be. He's in Europe. But, uh, here's your, here's your breakdown in the grades of where we go. I'm going to start with the Fs, Chad. I'm going to start with the F grades and we're going to go up. So the, the worst grade, uh, Bosko Vujitovic got an F. Chad So wash also got an F. Everybody, Chad So wash.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Which, which is good for me. I mean, it's only up from here.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think he drafted, I think you have Travis Kelsey, which is an instant F, uh, if you go that way. Fantasy, Ben Koontz got a D minus, Desiree Goldie, another D minus, Molly Sly, D minus. Nick Livingston, Nick Livingston got a D, uh, Dejan Omar, uh, D plus. I got a C, which I thought sucked at first, but then I looked at all the Ds and Fs and thought, oh, I'm doing all right. Uh, Scott Clark, C plus, uh, Nicholas Ticiak, Tiziak, uh, C plus. Uh, Mackenzie Maitland, the defending champ.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  With a B grade and the only A in the whole bunch is Jarrett Jolderzma. He got an A. He got an A.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  Well done, well done.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  We'll look back at this later.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Did you look to, oh, it's never, this is never how it ends up. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sweating the grades too much. But when you looked at who you got, Chad, you auto drafted, you put who you want. Did you get most of the players you wanted? Was there a lot of players like, oh, how did I, what? A lot of question marks?

• 12:02Speaker 00

  My quarterbacks are shit. You know, I've got Kittle and I have Kelsey on the tight end side. Running backs good, you know, my wide receivers, but my quarterbacks are just so.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Who are your quarterbacks for those listening?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  I can't remember off the top of my head. Um, football is, it's, it's fantasy football. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Your trades throughout, your pickups, your waivers, all that stuff throughout the season, that's what makes the end of the season really hum. And when we restructured and we like shortened our benches and those types of things, that made it even more fun. So, uh, I'm just, I'm, I'm excited. It's, it's a chess match. It's not checkers. So, uh, yeah, give me a D, give me an F. I don't care.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a tough leg. It's, it's a 12 seats, full, narrow bench. Like you said, uh, there's not a lot of room for error. If you get an injury or someone just stinks it up, like it could be a really long season for you. So.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Do you know, I have no idea what you mean by narrow or short bench. I feel like I need to go away and Google.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  So, so you, so you can, you can choose how many bench players you can have. So the shorter your bench, the less sort of reserves you have.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Which makes it harder to have players that are, that can fill in if there's an injury or a bye week, someone's not playing, less options.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Less options. That's going to take a longer, uh, a longer fantasy football podcast. Yes. But I do, here are my quarterbacks. Drake May was my number one quarterback.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Not bad.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  And Baker Mayfield was my second quarterback. Okay. So.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Baker just signed like a big contract, like 165 million dollars.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Saquon Barkley, I've got Walker, Kenneth Walker, the third. I mean, just studs at running back. Uh, T. Higgins, Evans, Godway. So I've got some, I've got some good players. So to see that I got.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Something to work with.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm good.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  You got something to work with.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  I'm not, I'm not sweating it.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Well, Drake starts tonight, baby. So let's, let's see. Let's start it off right. We'll see how that goes. All right. Let's get to shout outs, shall we?

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Time for shout outs.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Chad, what you got?

• 14:09Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. I think, I think we all to some extent advise startups and this week I want to give a shout out to a couple that I advise. And I see making pretty big moves. So first off, kind of set this one up. We all know that job seekers are moving toward large language models for job search. And a quick throwback for, for you out there, this is much like when Google started the, the job search back. We start indexing different, different companies back then, the SEO side of the house. And back then, you might remember that Indeed beat everyone to the punch and they owned Google results pages. Many companies actually lost their brand rankings on these pages. They're actually, they're brands.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  They didn't, they didn't show up for, uh, for instance, let's say for, uh, jobs at Marriott. If a, if a job seeker searched jobs for Marriott, Indeed would own that Google results page. So the candidate would click through and apply to Indeed instead of Marriott. Then Indeed captured those candidates who were originally looking to apply direct to Marriott. Then Indeed sold those candidates back to Marriott and their competitors at a premium. So very underhanded, but a very smart business play for Indeed because it worked. So today, job seekers are starting to use large language models for search away from standard search.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  But here's the rub. If hiring companies don't start embracing job search on large language models, Indeed will keep capturing your candidates and selling them back to you for an even, even larger premium. So Sonic Jobs, one of the companies I advise, has created a couple of products. So first and foremost, there's a jobs plugin that allows companies' jobs to be exposed in a search within ChatGPT, Claude and Gemini. Secondly, they've also created a white labeled career GPT for corporate career sites. So companies can have their own large language model version, search version, uh, instead of using some 1990s Boolean search, right?

• 16:14Speaker 00

  So I think this, uh, for me, this is a big move for Sonic Jobs.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  And then last but not least, Hacker Job is rebranding. Yes, they're rebranding. Why? Uh, because in six months, just six months after launching their recruiting agent, Archer was responsible for, they three X their ARR in six months. They received enterprise adoption from companies like Barclays, Comcast, Oracle, Sainsbury, Accenture and other small companies like that. Why three X adoption in like, because companies are hungry for getting ROI out of AI. They need results. Candidates introduced by Archer are five times more likely to interview.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  More than 50%, five zero, more than 50% of candidates that Archer introduces are first time interviews. That means their matches are better. They're actually, their discoverability is better. Plus Archer has blocked over 30,000 fraudulent candidates a month since deployment. So when companies ask how to get away from spending money with Indeed, how do I build for the future? My shout out this week goes to Archer and Sonic Jobs. Keep kicking ass. And again, very kind of self-serving because I advise these guys, but to see them make moves like this to me, I thought that was definitely notable.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  So before I get to mine, a couple of comments, I love it when a business changes its brand because what they've done is better than what they were doing before. Or what they, the new thing is, is more adapt to the future and where the market is going. So I think of, I think of Paradox and Olivia coming out of jobbing and that business. And I think that that's always really cool when businesses are willing to kill their old business in light of like new opportunities. Unlike some Pebble or some that like, oh, this isn't working. So let's, let's do some jazz hands and change our brand and maybe people won't, people won't

• 18:24Speaker 01

  notice. So that's kind of tale of two brand changes. And I like the one where it's a better business. On the, on the AEO play, I find this incredibly fascinating where the world of marketing is going. And I try to keep my finger on the pulse of some of this stuff, but companies are now developing sort of meta content for agents because agents and robots on the web have now overtaken humans in traffic. And as more and more agents make travel arrangements for you, search for jobs, buy stuff that you're looking to purchase. Companies are creating marketing just for agents and providing content that agents are looking for.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  So there's going to be a whole new industry, just like it was with SEO or pay per click, where companies are experts at making sure that when agents come to the site, that you're providing content and information for them, that they can make an agent a decision for the, for the consumer. I think that's fascinating. And I think it will be a store, somebody, some vendor is going to come along in our space and do this. And I think it's, I think it's very, very cool, very cool, almost as cool, almost as cool, Chad, as, as free bourbon.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  Oh, I love chicken coq.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  I do.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. Well, thanks to our friends at Proven Base. Proven Base, find talent others can't reach with Proven Base. They're providing free bourbon for our listeners, Chad. We're sending out two bottles every month, one from you, one from me, but you gotta go to Chadcheese.com/free to get yours. Again, that's provided by our friends at Proven Base. Now to my shout out, Chad, you know, one of my favorite porn actors is also one of the most recognizable company of.

• 20:11Speaker 06

  What are you doing?

• 20:13Speaker 03

  That is not what I thought you were gonna say.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  My shout out goes, goes out to Hung Lee. Industry people will know Hung pretty well. He's been a friend of the show for a long time. He occasionally says really nice things about us in his popular newsletter. And he was recently in Chicago, New York, I think LA was another destination for him. And it's always good as an American, seeing how our administration is tearing shit up and taking dumps on countries all over the place.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  The World Cup was great because people came over and realized Americans aren't that bad. They're pretty cool and American cities are okay. Like it's not so bad. And so to see Hung come in, do his walk and talks, talk about how cool Chicago is and how great New York is and the places he visits. It's just very refreshing and I'm glad that he's enjoying his time. We're going to see him in Nashville in a couple of weeks, which we'll get to events here in a second. But my shout out goes out to, to personally my favorite porn star and part-time industry expert.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  There we go.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Hung Lee, Hung Lee. All right, Emmy, follow that, follow that.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Come on, Emmy. I don't think I can. You know what's actually going through my head? Just like hung like a donkey.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 21:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  I mean, terrible.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  Donkey.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Hung like a donkey. There it is. We say hung like a horse in America. Is it hung like a donkey?

• 21:42Speaker 03

  It's hung like a donkey in the UK. Yeah. Hung more. I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna get off this topic.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  What is my shout out? Nothing to TV recruitment. And I'll tell you why, because I had an amazing week this week, oh, last week rather. My week was music orientated. It started for UK folks who know this, Notting Hill Carnival. So it's a big London celebration, like celebrating Caribbean culture, dancing in the street was absolutely amazing. And that would have been my shout out, but then, then I went to Jay-Z. I went to the Jay-Z concert. Honestly, last minute.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Mine, baby.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  Oh my God. All the classics were there. It was one of the best concerts I've been to. I went to Jay-Z probably about 10 years ago when I was over in the Middle East, but it was amazing in London. And what was even better is because it was on Queen B's birthday. So she wasn't performing, but they, you know, did a spotlight on her. The crowd sang happy birthday. Idris Elba opened the show. DJ Khaled was on stage as well, but.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Did he say another one?

• 22:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  It was like, take it, take it. But then, then, then, when I thought it couldn't get any better, Fugees got on stage.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Did they break, Lauryn Hill's great. Did they break up? Did they? Okay. So they're, they're back together like every other band from the nineties.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  They're doing something in London. So I knew they were in London. I kind of saw an Insta. Wasn't sure, but when they popped up in stage, you see hear her singing like Killing Me Softly

• 23:30Speaker 03

  It was amazing, amazing. So thank you. Thank you, Jay-Z for an awesome concert.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  So let's segue into events where I'm sure Emmy's going to tell us where her next vacation is.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  What do you mean? I do work.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Okay. Where's your working vacation, Emmy?

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Well, my working vacation is going to be Thailand.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Okay, stop. You're done. Shut her down now. Shut her down.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  Are you jealous? Don't be jealous. Don't be jealous.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Good for you. That's awesome.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  I am going to be taking meetings by the beach with like sangria in my hands.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  If you can only see this water right now. Oh. I bet I live here. That doesn't count. Okay. So we're getting ready for travel. And you know that travel is sponsored by our friends over at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. That's shaker.com. 75 years in business. That's right. It's a Shaker birthday this year, kids. Shaker celebration.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Chad, I don't know if you noticed, we have a, we have a secret device in Joe Shaker's office. Let's see what he's, let's see, let's see what he's up to. Well, I'm the best there is, plain and simple. I mean, I wake up in the morning, I piss excellent.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Well, they're gonna be, they're gonna be at Rec Fest in Nashville. We're gonna be there. Also, we're gonna have JT and Mo. Unfortunately, Emmy's gonna be, I don't know, somewhere exotic.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Why does she hate us so much? Why does she hate us?

• 24:56Speaker 03

  I want to. I do.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  September 23rd and 24th, Rec Fest in Nashville. If you haven't got your tickets, it's probably too late. You should be crawling in the corner. Okay. Or you should just go to recfest.com, see if they have tickets left. On the first night, we're going to go to Old Red's rooftop. You can have a drink with the Chad and Cheese, meet it with the great sponsors that are there. Then I'm going to Cabo. I'm not going for the donkey show, Emmy, although I'm still going, still going to Cabo.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I did not have donkey on my bingo card for today's show, but I should have.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Then I'm off to this, then I'm off to the staffing industry analyst collaboration X at the Omni in Dallas from September 29th through the October 1st, where I'm judging Shark Tank, leading a discussion around maximizing ROI with recruitment advertising. Then we're both off. Then we're both off to where, Cheeseman? To the Musique Gavau. That's right, bitches. October 6th, October 6th in Amsterdam for the e-recruitment Congress. And they're going to have humanoid robots working the Congress. Only Leven can make this happen.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  You think a robot can replace me?

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Well, for this part of it, Stephen, you probably should. Yes. And last but never least, we're going to Workday's frontline hiring event in Vegas on October 12th. That's an invite only. Only time we've gone to Vegas all year, kids. And why? Because Paradox and Workday said, can you be there? And we're like, yeah, of course. If you want to go to one of these events, go to Chadcheese.com/events, register for the events and buy us a drink. We can't wait to see you.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  And he failed to mention that Stephen McGrath will be in Amsterdam with us.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Oh, I can't wait.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  I have feelings. Not hot.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, Stephen. I'm sorry.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Looking forward to seeing.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  I love him. I love him.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  By the way, I finally got tickets to the Anne Frank House.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Oh, very nice.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  That thing is always like sold out and I got enough time, lead time.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  Really good. It is really, really good. Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Pretty excited about that.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Did you get tickets for the sex museum as well?

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Let's get to topics, Chad.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  AKA Joel's night stand. Go ahead.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Okay, shut the hell up, Emmy.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  All right, let's talk about labor in light of that comment. We celebrated Labor Day this week, everybody, so let's discuss the state of labor.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  U.S. unions enjoy a 71% approval rating, yet membership is only 10%. The UK has roughly doubled that, and Europe as a whole fluctuates from 90% membership in Iceland to 6% in Estonia. Many of the developed economies struggle with immigration, de-globalization, and safety nets are struggling in light of shifting demographics. We haven't raised the minimum wage in the U.S. since the Obama administration.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Holy cow.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Oh, and the humanoid robots are coming as well. As for the developing world, AI is taking a bite out of the traditionally low-cost labor jobs, hello, customer service and copyrighting. Chad, I'm sure you're thinking a lot about labor while you're downing omega-3s and pints of Guinness in Portugal. What's your take on the state of labor?

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Do you have a camera in my home?

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Okay, one thing you didn't hit on was H1B visas. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit this up real quick, but I dug into some economic research from George Mason's Mercatus, I think it's Mercatus Center, which showed that the restriction of H1B visas had led to more offshoring of high-skilled jobs to foreign subsidiaries in countries like India, China, Canada. They also, they're thinking that there was going to be a massive loss of innovation because 41% of patents granted to U.S.-headquartered companies involve at least one foreign-born inventor.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Immigrants get it done.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, which, and they only make up 16% of the U.S. inventor workforce, right? 41% of ideas and innovation not reaching our shores. That's a huge brain drain. Then there's the impact on jobs overall. So high-skilled tech workers act as growth drivers inside of companies because their ideas and innovations create products. Without them, we will see a reduction in secondary hiring for support and non-technical staff to build, sell, and support those products. And overall, the U.S. became less competitive. Everything I just talked about makes us less competitive and more negatively impacting our competitiveness on the world stage.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  American strength has always been our diversity, have always been our diversity. Plus, it makes it so much easier for countries like Canada and France to poach scientists, developers, great talent from the U.S., not to mention future great talent. Kids right now who are going into school, who might have wanted to come to that land, that city on, the sparkling shiny city on top of the hill. Guess what? That shit, that city's not on top of the hill anymore, and it's a shitty city. They're going to another country instead. So unfortunately, and again, I wanted to focus on the H1B side of the house, but also the ability for countries to literally just come in and poach the fuck out of us.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, if I step outside of my body and I look at immigration as an issue, I like, I can understand, I can understand people saying, hey, you know, the immigrants coming over illegally, they're taking jobs, they're taking less money than I would take. Like, I can, I can understand that.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  The H1B stuff is hard to, hard to understand why we have said, hey, if you're smart and able and a company wants to bring you over, we're not welcoming you anymore. That seems totally counterintuitive to what we do here in America. It makes me think that big tech, having so much control, and not wanting others to have those workers, to have, like, how many companies have the 100, 100K to bring people over in H1, H1BB visas? It's the big companies, it's big tech. So who's in the pocket of big tech? Well, it's this administration. So if I was having conversations with Donald Trump, I'd say, hey, you know, let us have the H1Bs, but all of our competition, all the startups, the young companies that have been doing it, like, don't let them have them anymore.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  There's a great Bloomberg story, I think it's Bloomberg, that you shared, Chad, about a Texas town that was basically built on H1B visas, right? I think it was India or South, South Asians coming over.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  The entire economy.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Housing, huge movement, housing, services, healthcare, like, all these, all these folks that come over and are demonized, they're creating jobs for everyone. They're creating growth for everyone. And it just baffles me how America has become this place of walls and stay away, and you're not welcome here. And as a result, they're going to places like Canada and Europe. This is, this is kind of what we get for that. The whole union thing has been a theme on our show during COVID. It seemed like there was a renaissance in, in, in unions. Starbucks was unionizing, like, all these companies you didn't think of as unionizing, Google, for example.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  And ever since Trump won, the Sean Fains of the world, you don't hear from anymore. Like, it just, I think, labor has taken a hit since then. And by, by golly, labor's been taking hits for decades.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  And you look back, if you look way before that even, I mean, if you look at why labor unions are impactful, it's because they are politically impactful. So laws were passed because labor got politicians into office. I trace this a lot back to media. As, as media became a thing, as TVs got into living rooms, as radios, and of course, the internet became a thing, the ability to put a message in front of voters became much more efficient. The scalability of it was like it had never been before. It wasn't like I'm on the back of a train, I'm going to different towns and speaking. Like, I could get that message to a ton of people. Well, media and money go hand in hand.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  So ultimately, whoever has money and can buy media is going to influence elections. So I have money, I can go to politicians, say, hey, I'm gonna spend money and then get you elected. So the, the power of unions to get votes started to subside over and over and over. You had things like pensions were cut out for 401Ks, that was in the 70s. So now, okay, why would I be at a company? I don't have pensions anymore, I can take my 401K wherever I want. We had automation, so labor unions have been just cut down year over year over year. And I, I fear that the power of the worker, labor versus capital, just continues to get hit in the nuts. And I see no change in it, but I do see the young people really pissed off.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  And I do see, like, Mom Dami getting elected, and I see politicians. This midterm is going to be really, really interesting to see if the kids come out to vote, who they vote for. If you don't have assets, the system sucks for you. And those folks are gonna come out, whether they're in a union or not, and vote a lot of these people out. So I, I think it's, the history of unions is fascinating. I'm not an expert, but as I looked back for this show, the decline of it is really almost thoughtful. It's almost like planned, that this thing was piece by piece. We're gonna dismantle labor and, and, and give the advantage to capital. And we're seeing some of that come to light.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  It's called trickle-down economics.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  It's a lot of things.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  Scary.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's people in power. Who runs for office? It's people that went to college and go to elite universities. Well, where's the money come from? Those people that go to elite universities. So like, those folks know each other. The unions have always been on the outside, their power's always been in numbers. And as those numbers go down, you know, strategically over time, they have less power. And this is, uh, this is where we are today. Labor is getting kicked in the nuts, and I don't see any change in it. Although the, the kids being pissed off is an interesting development in American politics and around the world.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  That might be the trigger to start changing things. Kids are gonna speak up a little bit more.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  They gotta vote, young people gotta vote, man.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Let's hope.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  And I think they will, I think they will, because, um, you know, people are pissed off. The youngsters are pissed off, you know, they're not, they're going out there trying to look for a job, and their jobs aren't there. You know, they're finding the jobs that they would have actually taken being replaced by, let's say, AI, or companies saying that, you know, we're just gonna pause this role because we think we can get more efficiencies using AI, for example. So I think it will change this time around, and I'm actually looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to hear the reaction. But, I mean, from my point of view, it's kind of like a bit of a, a bit of a depressing read, you know, just to see, you know, hear that people are still struggling. The U.S. is still really expensive. People, you know, I read somewhere like, you can tell me this is true,

• 36:04Speaker 03

  but I read somewhere that a burrito is like $20. And I'm like, who's paying $20 for a burrito? You know, it's like, that's ridiculous in this day and age. So that, if, if a simple burrito is that expensive, what about everything else? What about bills? And then they're going out, people are losing their jobs left, right, and center, even though some of the press reports are saying, you know, unemployment rates are stable. It's like, are they stable? Because what, what are you looking at? That's not real-time data. So even that's a little bit misleading. The people that are going out, they can feel that there are no jobs out there. Even if they are in a job, their wage increases aren't keeping up with inflation. So in reality, year on year, you're actually making less money.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  So it's, it's not a great world out there at, at all. That's why I said it's like, it's a really depressing, really depressing read. But I do hope that the youngsters will get pissed off enough, like I said, start complaining, start voting, and say, look, we can't afford to live in this economy.

• 37:03Speaker 00

  How would you feel to, if you lived in your mom's basement right now, right? I mean, that's how pissed off, and it's, it's like, you know, you hear people saying, well, you know, they're just living in mom and dad's basement because they're lazy. No, just get by the fucking job that pays enough to get a god, I mean, you, it is so irritating.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And what's so intriguing to me, I don't, I don't hear either party really talking about raising the minimum wage. I don't see it as a platform for anyone. And you, you see the DSA movement, and you hear interviews with like Rahm Emanuel, who's a very prominent Democrat, sort of an old-school Democrat, who does not embrace DSA. He says they're a different party, they're not Democrats. Because I think he's worried about how MAGA kind of destroyed the Republican Party, as you know it. He's worried about DSA destroying the Democratic Party, as you know it. So you have the AOC part of the, of the Democratic wing who is embracing it, and how that sort of settles out in the election, I think is, is gonna be fascinating. But I don't see either major party talking about raising the minimum wage or helping workers a whole hell of a lot.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  That's an entirely different podcast.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Either way, are we bullish or bearish on labor?

• 38:12Speaker 00

  Right now, with Citizens United, you're going to be bearish. Until we, we get rid of Citizens United, either from federal standpoint or state standpoint, it's going to die because money's going to beat, beat the fuck out of it. Yes, too easy.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Money rules, which is why we're going to take a break and listen to our sponsors. Guys, there is no show without the generous contributions from our sponsors. We'll be right back.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Hey, boys and girls, it's Joel Cheeseman here from the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Guys, I've seen pretty much every AI recruiting tool out there. I give my time and money to a very small few, and I'm here to tell you that I'm an investor in Alex AI because this tech actually delivers. Look, if you're still drowning in automated resume slop, ghosting candidates and wasting hours on first round screens, it's time to hire with Alex. Alex is the AI recruiter that's actually solid, which means it doesn't sound like a robot from a 1984 sci-fi flick.

• 39:09Speaker 01

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• 39:53Speaker 01

  Guys, alex.com, interview everyone, hire the best. Guys, let's talk jobs. America's latest jobs report surprised to the upside. August payrolls rose 162,000 and unemployed. Unemployment held at 4.1%. Participation ticked up to 61.6%. Hourly pay was $37.75, up 3.1% year over year. Hospitality and local education added jobs. Information lost some jobs. Prior months were revised up 55,000. The market looks stable after a soft mid-year stretch, said most analysts. Sunny days ahead, Chad, or is this another banana in the tailpipe?

• 40:38Speaker 00

  I think that banana is going somewhere. Other than a tailpipe, to be quite frank. We beat expectations. Well, that's for everyone who isn't paying attention. We just talked about H1B debacle that is leading to more offshoring, which means more jobs created, but in other countries, not the US. But I have two fronts I want to talk about on this, other than just H1B. First off, the immigration front, the actual jobs that are being quote unquote, created. Yes, I'm using air quotes, are ones that Americans won't fill. They were previously filled by immigrants who were either deported or left the country. So they really weren't actually created. They were abandoned. Okay.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  And if Americans are performing those jobs, it's because the jobs they're qualified to fill don't exist anymore due to downsizing, offshoring or failing economy, right? 162,000 jobs created. What they're not saying is that over half of those jobs came from hospitality and construction, where immigrants have always had a huge role in that talent pool. Basically, we're creating jobs nobody wants and they're not going to get filled. So on the tariff front, Volkswagen faces significant costs from US tariffs on imports from 4.7 billion to 5.8 billion this year, which will just be passed on to American buyers

• 42:04Speaker 00

  who can't afford a new car anyway. So while VW builds 200,000 cars at plants in the US and 280,000 cars for Mexico. So we, the US, set the rule for trade. Remember Trump's US MCA, the United States, Mexico, Canada agreement? The agreement he negotiated and he put together and companies worked within those rules and then turned on a dime. And now they expect VW, in this case, to move operations to the US. Why would they do that? I mean, how could you trust someone after making those big, big changes in actual trade policy and tariff policy?

• 42:48Speaker 00

  So we're literally playing right into the hands of China. We're literally kneecapping our allies by China, who they, they don't sell cars in the US, by the way. They have the opportunity to kill companies like VW because those stupid fucking tariffs, they're making cars unaffordable for Americans because again, you were talking about we're wage depressed, the economy's not, not killing it. So basically tariffs are killing jobs. We've got tariffs and we've got immigration. And that's where I see this jobs report. Those are the two, at least my two hidden storylines underneath that.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  So I'm going to boil it down to it's the boomers fault.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  I mean, you would be right.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  So where the jobs are coming roughly, healthcare, services, construction and education. So let's dissect some of those separately. So boomers are getting older. Do you get healthier when you get older? No, you get sicker. Aging people means we need more healthcare workers. AI is not destroying radiology jobs. They're not, your robotics aren't replacing doctors yet. So until that happens, we need people in those jobs. There's a lot of turnover in those positions, so they're always hiring. This industry has survived many ups and downs because of healthcare. All the job boards and like because of healthcare, we've kept a lot of businesses afloat and this is no different. So aging boomers means a healthy healthcare system. We also have boomers that have a lot of money.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  They're getting, you know, three, four, five percent interest on their money, month after month after month. They need to spend that money. They're empty nesters. They go out to eat a lot. They travel a lot. My, my feed is full of, of empty nesters like Chad, who now live in Portugal and, and go to Cabo and spend a bunch of money in Vegas.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  You're working, but you have a little bit more disposable income.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  I'll put, I'll put Xers in here as well. Xers are, Xers are empty nesters. They're not retired. They don't have the boomer money, but they are spending things, submitting money more, a little bit more liberally. Teachers, average age of a teacher is pretty old. The amount of teachers retiring is pretty, pretty amazing. So we need to fill those jobs with more and more teachers. We also have a seasonal effect apparently on some of these teaching jobs that aren't counted during the summer because they're not teaching in the summer. So that's sort of a replacement thing. Interestingly, government on the state and local side is growing. Federal, not so much. We know the story behind that, but as boomers want more services, they have more of a voice and giving money to candidates.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  They want more shit, so there's more money to go around and stay local government. So if you look at what's prospering, it all has to go to the boomers. If you have assets, if you have money in the bank, if you have dividends, you know, dropping in your account month after month, life is pretty good and you're spending money, those services. If you're young, not so much. Fast food restaurants are struggling. Everything that services younger people is, is challenged right now. So I'm going to lay this on the, on the feet of, of the boomers. I do think it's funny, just a few years ago, these reports were like between 200 and 300,000 jobs and we're getting a boner over 166,000. It's just, it's just funny because relatively speaking, it's still really, really low. We shouldn't be that excited from it.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I think World, World Cup and some of the hangover from that is impactful or with jobs. So there's a lot going on here. So many stories from recruiting friends and you guys hear them too about no one's hiring, takes me forever to get a job. Everything's at a standstill, like nothing anecdotally is positive. And these numbers I think are a lot of, a lot of smoke and not much fire.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  Well, you talked about last week, there are a lot of jobs that are out there that companies are actually posting that they're not hiring for. I mean, more, more than we've seen ever.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Well, these should actually be hires, not jobs posted.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  It should be.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Do we believe the numbers is another thing? Do we believe the numbers?

• 46:52Speaker 03

  No, we don't believe the numbers.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  And that is the big thing. To be honest, I think it's really easy for HR professionals, you know, to just look at the headline and go, yeah, this is positive because that is the way it's written. It's supposed to be written in a positive, positive light. And they rely on people just not peeling back, doing the research, trying to understand the kind of macroeconomics. And so. When the numbers like this go out, generally speaking, people go, oh yeah, you know, the market is picking up. It is amazing because very few people will do their research. So that's why, you know, podcasts like this, voices like you two, who will actually go away and do the research and tell people what's actually going on. And like, you don't need to believe like this is all smoke and mirrors. That's why that's really important. HR professionals need to wise up.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  They need to understand what's going on beyond the headlines. Is this actual reality or is there something else going on? You know, like we said, with the, the unemployment rates, unemployment rates look steady. And you know, it doesn't look like it's declining. Well, it's not declining because you have more mass immigration. That means there's less people looking for jobs in the marketplace. So the percentage stays exactly the same.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  And people are dropping off the rolls too.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  So I mean, they're both happening.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. So that, that is, I suppose that's my biggest takeaway for people, you know, listening to this particular section in particular. It's that don't be fooled by a headline. Do your own research. Look at what's actually going on in a wider world because sometimes it's just smoke and mirrors.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a very nuanced topic and people just look at, oh, hundred sixty six thousand jobs, four point one percent unemployment. And like it's, things are great, but if you start peeling that onion, not so much, not so much.

• 48:36Speaker 05

  Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  All right, let's take it over to Europe, but maybe some bigger issues at hand globally. A Dutch privacy regulator has fined Uber eight hundred and twenty five million euros for automatically blocking drivers over suspected fraud or low ratings with little or no human review and poor notice. GDPR bars such high stakes automated decisions. A representative for the government said, quote, "A computer should not make decisions on its own that have major consequences for you. These decisions should have been looked at first by a human being," end quote. The algos are coming for your job. Will your government do something about it? Chad, your thoughts on the Uber fine?

• 49:22Speaker 00

  Well, Europe is definitely going to do something about it because they have. I guarantee you this shit's happening in the U.S. and nobody's even checking it out. But this reminds me of the time when Amazon had its system fire people like women who were out on maternity leave because they hadn't shown up to work for a while. I mean, stupid shit like this will continue to happen as long as idiot leaders allow these systems to work without human supervision. And Uber will be lucky if they get away with only paying just eight hundred and twenty five million euros, right?

• 49:54Speaker 01

  I think it's the fourth, their fourth fine for stuff like this.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  It is, it is, and, and they've been escalating. And this is a much larger fine, but I'm waiting for the next European country, or I don't know, maybe the EU itself to step in and, and have another go. I think they really want to use them as an example and they should. I mean, because this, this is a huge infringement, just not just on GDPR. But you take a look at the, the new EU AI Act and man, that's going to smack some motherfuckers really hard.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Robots, you think a robot can replace me?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  So a couple of thoughts on this. Number one is I'm convinced that companies just call the, calling the accountants and crunch the numbers and go, okay, what's the largest possible fine? And frankly, Europe is kind of good about the maximum is this and the third count maximum is so. They actually know the worst case scenario in terms of what they're going to pay for, for a fine. So they, they do the numbers and say, well, if we do this, how much are we going to save? What's the efficiency, blah, blah, blah? And is that worth the fine that we're probably going to have to pay if we do this? And the accounts go yes or no. And if it's worth it, then they just go ahead and do it. So I think part of these, just running over the law is part of the equation of, of business. And that's unfortunate, but I think that's what they, they do a risk analysis and go from there.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  The second part of this is AI is if you work for a company, AI is going to be a second by second, hour by hour, day by day, week by week, monitor of everything you do. Part of the efficiency improvements of companies is the fact that everyone thinks they're being watched all the time. And I'd better be working all the time or else I'm going to put myself at risk of being fired. I agree with you, Chad. America will not make any laws around firing people because the algo says you should be fired.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  That's going to happen for sure, just like you'll be hired without ever seeing a human being. So this is just the state of play in America for sure. Get used to the fact that algorithms are going to watch you all the time. They're going to be ranking you, grading you amongst your coworkers. And your, your job is at risk because an algo, an AI is watching all the time. The days of like sitting down once a year with your boss and going, hey, boss, how did I do this year? And kind of eyeballing it, well, it was pretty good. We got some stuff done, like I was pretty happy with your, with your efforts. That's gone. There's going to be a data readout. There's going to be an LLM like telling your boss, this guy should be fired. This gal should stay around because we've been watching them every second for the last year.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  You get readouts by the end of the day.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. It'll be like your health, it'll be like your O ring. Every day you'll get a score about how you did at work.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Just check your phone, just check your phone.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Are you okay?

• 52:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Your last call was shit.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Do it again. I don't like that idea. Like, you know, like I said, always said before, I'm a massive fan of AI. I know there's some negativities or things that we need to take into account in terms of kind of current job losses. But I don't, I don't ever want to get to a stage where it is totally automated. It is totally AI driven, you know? And particularly, you know, we, we know, we, we're in a HR space, we're in a recruitment space. That is primarily a people driven job, you know, people driven industry. And so I, I, I really, really hope that we don't get to a stage where we're going to have performance reviews and like totally done by AI or interviews totally done by AI.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  It's coming, it's coming.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  I, I'm going to stay positive.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  No, unless they eat, because the U.S. won't, but unless the EU says no.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. And this, and this is the thing, like in, in Europe, and this is why I'm surprised that this has happened. And to be honest, I was, I thought Uber only got fined twice. Twice is too much. Four times is way too much, you know? In Europe, we have a lot of legislation. Like I said, we have the EU AI Act, we have GDPR. We know that, that, that they're going to fine us and that fine will increase. And as AI become more and more integrated into personal lives, into work lives, those legislations are just going to get stricter and stricter. Their fines are going to get stricter and stricter as well, or higher and higher. So it does surprise me to hear that this actually happens. But I think the wake up call for organizations is like, I think this can happen to Uber and this can happen to Meta.

• 54:20Speaker 03

  Because I think Meta had a, a, a larger fine than this one for a similar type of thing.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Sixteen billion.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. It can happen, yeah, it can happen in your organization. So people need to kind of switch on. And this is the kind of thing like the conversations I have in a, in my organization. When we're buying HR, the recruiting technology, we're not just buying it and going, hey, yeah, cool. Let's implement it, you know? The company says, yeah, you know, they're doing their due diligence. No, now I have to actually understand where the data is being held. Now I have to understand that I'm dealing, we're dealing with people. So we're making people decisions. So therefore it cannot be totally automated. It cannot be totally left to AI. At some point, there has to be a human in the loop. So even if that tool has an approve button, taking approve and saying like, hey, a human approved this, that's not enough now.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  You need to now show evidence of a meaningful human review. Because if the leg, if the regulators come down on you or want to do an investigation, if you've got no proof, you're the one who's going to be hit by the fine. And if you're not an organization like Meta, like, um, like Uber with deep pockets, that could tank your business just because you didn't follow legislation.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  This is one time, four percent of revenue is a lot.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  And this is one time, they can come back and they can hit it for another four percent.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, because the fines just get bigger and bigger and bigger. So that's not a good business case. If they're really doing a thing, it's like, yeah, I can afford this. Can you keep affording it? Can you keep affording the increase in fines? No, and definitely smaller organizations won't be able to either.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  What's the driverless market in Europe? Are there Waymos driving around or there, there, I don't, I never see any, right?

• 55:58Speaker 03

  I've never seen it. I've never seen it. I wouldn't even get in it, to be honest.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  It sounds prevalent is in the U.S. at all.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  But it is, it is some, it's some places have it, just not as prevalent.

• 56:08Speaker 00

  If it would be anywhere, it'd be cities like London, the Paris.

• 56:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I've never seen it in London. Yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I wonder if that's a labor thing, regulation thing, just retating that.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Again, safeguard and protections, which our Department of Labor are fucking us over whenever they get a chance.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  All right, guys, let's take a quick break. Uh, if you haven't subscribed to our channel, please do so. Give us a like and a follow. We'll be right back.

• 56:38Speaker 00

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• 57:23Speaker 00

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• 57:35Speaker 01

  That escalated quickly. Let's talk a little job board, old media, shall we? The Guardian announced that it is closing its long-running recruitment platform, Guardian Jobs, after more than 20 years online in three decades of classified job ads. In case you missed it, The Guardian is a major British daily newspaper with a global audience of 115 million monthly users. Emmy, you're British, the last time I checked. Is this a big deal, little deal, or no deal?

• 58:06Speaker 03

  Do you know what? For me, maybe because I'm just slightly older than people who are job hunting at the moment or entering the job market.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Never older than us, Emmy. You'll never be older than us.

• 58:17Speaker 03

  Never.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  Absolutely not. No, I'm just joking. But yeah, for me, this is a big deal. And I'll tell you why, because I remember when I graduated, we didn't, I don't remember LinkedIn being around when I graduated. I don't think it was. But how did I look for jobs? I got a newspaper. One of those newspapers was The Guardian, you know? And they'll have their, you know, graduate section. But then I was working, looking for sales jobs. So they had the sales section each day of the week. I think it was about three days a week, you know? You had that education and then it just targeted different industries. But it was how people got jobs. And then obviously it evolved. It moved away from print and it went online, but it still was how people got jobs. When I came back to the UK, I started relying on Guardian because I was working in the

• 59:05Speaker 03

  charity sector. So that was a great place to capture the kind of charity professionals. And so for me, it is really sad because now this is going away. Now these kind of niche platform, because it is necessarily really a niche platform, where are people going to go? Indeed and LinkedIn. And if they, you know, if all these kind of niche kind of job platforms go, that all that's going to happen is that what Indeed and LinkedIn are going to monopolize the market? They can charge whatever they want because organizations think that they've got nowhere else to go to go and find candidates. That's going to be really bad. So it is a sad thing for me. I do think it's a wake-up call for organizations because they've got to start thinking, if

• 59:46Speaker 03

  you ain't got the deep pockets to keep paying whatever Indeed and LinkedIn want to charge, then how else are you going to build your talent pipeline? Do you need to have a stronger employer brand? Do you have to have a better internal sourcing model? For example, they've got to start, they've got to pivot, they've got to adapt. Otherwise they'll be spending way, way, way too much money to find candidates.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Did Emmy just give us a history lesson, Chad? Time for a history lesson.

• 1:00:15Speaker 03

  Was that my first history lesson?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  I think it is. Congratulations. Congratulations. Jay-Z and a history lesson. You've peaked. Yes.

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Chad, you're kind of British adjacent. What's your, what are your thoughts?

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Well, I got to double down on the newspaper side of the house. And you've got to remember that newspapers, especially today, they're not great businesses. Whenever you go to The Guardian, which is a, I think a great, a great, just an amazing source of news, they're always hounding you for subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, right? Because they didn't really understand back in the newspaper days that the classifieds were, that's what kept these companies going. That was the biggest revenue driver that they really had. They didn't evolve that. They didn't, they didn't create new products other than literally just taking those classifieds, putting them online, right?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

  So when they did create job sites, they did the same thing, right? And from a postmortem standpoint, they were niche. They should have increased their TAM. They're, I mean, literally a global known entity and they were a niche website, right? They should have increased the TAM. Their business model was very standard. They might've had some programmatic in there because they had some, some backfill jobs.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Backfill, yeah.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  But it wasn't their technology. They weren't providing the technology.

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  And so there was no evolution that was there. So if you were a job board that's out there today, it's all about taking a look at evolution, what should be moving toward, what should be moving toward qualified candidates. You being able to literally target individuals for your niche, to be able to draw them in so that you can deliver them to the companies that are looking for them, right? And take a look at, we just talked about Hack a Job slash Archer earlier. They're delivering 50% more candidates that companies never talked to before. Discoverability, they're using this new tech to be able to do that. I think The Guardian was on Magex, right? Which is an old job board platform.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  God, yeah.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  And they were bought by Wiley and Wiley's a publication organization, right? And they did nothing with them. They've been stagnant for years, right? But yet, but that's not, that's not Magex's fault. That's The Guardian's fault. The Guardian should have actually switched platforms. They should have innovated. They should have done so much more. So my whole fricking thought process around this from a postmortem standpoint is they literally just did nothing.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  They said it and they forget it. And then when that happens, you die. And that's, you've got to continue to move because especially now, everything's moving around us and it's moving fast.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. 60% of the time, it works every time. I would venture to say that they're still on a duration-based advertising system where you give us, I looked at about 600 bucks for 30 days. They have a little gold level, which I guess means it adds on top.

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, they do.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Like $1,200. So what do we talk about week after week about the biggest issues facing employers? It's automated candidates, right? So if I pay a flat fee for 30 days and after one or two days, I have more than enough automated replies to like drive myself crazy, but now I still have 28 more days of this ad being live, that sucks, right? I've got that long to get automated replies like, no, I'm not cool with that. You can't even, even like on a pay-per-click deal, which would be, I guess, innovation, Chad, in this example, which they've never looked at doing.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  I'm making less because people would cut off their ad. So the world is moving towards a, what am I getting for my money and not it's online for 30 days or I get this many clicks. It has to be results-based because of the way technology is expanding. The reason that they gave for the shutting of, shutting down of the, the jobs section was that vacancies had reached a five-year low. Vacancies reached a five-year low because no one was posting jobs on the system because it was not made for recruiting and advertising today. So I agree with Chad. Look, I've said, I've quoted Darwin many times. It's not the strongest or the smartest that survive. It's the one that's most able and willing to adapt.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  And newspapers that aren't adapting are dying. And The Guardian is a study, study case number one. Unlike dad jokes, everybody who will never die.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  All the time, yes.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  And will never.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  Are they getting better?

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  They're a dad joke. Of course they're not getting better. That's how they work.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Why, why did the banana go to the doctor? Why did the banana go to the doctor?

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  Don't see the slip.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  He wasn't peeling very well. He wasn't peeling very well.

• 1:05:05Speaker 00

  I thought something might've given him the slip or something.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:12Speaker 03

  When you talked about innovating or adapting, this wasn't it.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  I always get you. I always get you. I always get you. You know you're going to share it with your friends. You know you're going to tell that one today.

• 1:05:24Speaker 03

  I don't think I am.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Guys, it's been fun. We out.

• 1:05:28Speaker 03

  We out.

• 1:05:30Speaker 05

  Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast. The Chad, the cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode.

• 1:06:15Speaker 05

  And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.