Pod Insights The Chad & Cheese Podcast CNET's Katherine Watt: Tackling the Jobless Jungle About this episode On this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast, the boys lasso CNET money maestro Katherine Watt to dissect the job market’s wild west. Watt spills the beans on why unemployment stats are about as reliable as a weather app in a hurricane, exposing the gritty reality job seekers face. They wrangle topics like the “Great Stay” snoozefest, where workers cling to jobs like life rafts, and the economic data that’s got everyone scratching their heads. Watt drops gold nuggets on crafting resumes that dodge AI gatekeepers, urging quality over spamming applications like a bot gone rogue. She also tackles AI’s takeover, ghosting recruiters who vanish faster than a magician’s rabbit, and the gig economy’s rise that’s got job seekers hustling like Uber drivers on a Friday night. With networking as the secret sauce and upskilling as the new black, Watt’s tips are your ticket to standing out in a job market more crowded than a Black Friday sale. Get ready for laughs and wisdom in this no-BS job hunt showdown. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction to Catherine Watt and Her Background 02:56 - Understanding the Job Market Disconnect06:14The Reality of Job Searching Today 08:51 - The Impact of Economic Data on Job Seekers11:46The Perfect Storm in the Labor Market15:05The Great Stay and Its Implications 18:06 - Optimizing Resumes for the Modern Job Market 18:54 - Navigating Job Applications in the AI Era 24:47 - Generational Perspectives on Job Seeking 30:11 - The Shift to Gig Economy and Side Hustles 36:32 - Upskilling and Employee Development 39:43 - Strategies for Job Seekers in a Competitive Market
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Dude, it turns out that Winston Smart Recruiter's first AI hiring sidekick is taking all the grunt work out of Recruiter's Day. Things like candidate screening, scheduling, all the admin garbage no one actually wants to touch. Winston can do it all.
0:17 Speaker 01 Man, you know I'm a fan of using new tech that takes the boring repetitive crap out of a Recruiter's Day and allows them to have more time to connect with hiring managers and candidates.
0:29 Speaker 00 Yep, Winston is doing the heavy lifting while recruiters kick back and do the actual hiring stuff. You know, like talking to people.
0:37 Speaker 01 I really dig that Smart Recruiters is evolving out of the legacy ATS model and embracing cleaner processes using AI. With most ATS providers, it's like, hey, 2003 called and it wants its 30-minute application process back.
0:53 Speaker 00 No doubt. It sounds like Rebecca and the team are using Winston to push Smart Recruiters into the future while the ATS vendors are basically on an AOL dial-up modem with a dashboard.
1:05 Speaker 01 With Smart Recruiters, Winston does the grind and the recruiters get the glory.
1:11 Speaker 00 For more information on superhuman hiring with Winston, visit SmartRecruiters.com. That's SmartRecruiters.com.
1:19 Speaker 01 Start using Winston today, or I guess you can stick with...
1:25 Speaker 02 Now we return you to our regular scheduled program in progress.
1:29 Speaker 03 Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Soash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
1:52 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman, riding shotgun as always. Chad Soash is in the house as we welcome Catherine Watt, a money rider for CNET. Catherine, welcome to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast.
2:12 Speaker 04 Thank you for having me.
2:13 Speaker 01 She's also JJ in TJ's sister. You didn't know that?
2:21 Speaker 00 Leave the jokes, leave the jokes to me, my friend. Leave the jokes.
2:25 Speaker 04 I'm not TJ and JJ's sister, but I am the descendant of James Watt, who invented the steam engine. So.
2:31 Speaker 01 Oh, that's impressive.
2:33 Speaker 00 Wasn't he under Reagan, the ecology, James Watt? I'm going way back in time, but okay.
2:39 Speaker 01 Not the same guy. Yeah, not even close to the same guy. Steam engine Reagan. Leave history to me.
2:49 Speaker 00 All right, Catherine, a lot of our listeners, viewers won't know who you are. So give us a little bit about what makes Catherine tick.
2:56 Speaker 04 Oh, what makes Catherine tick? Bad headlines, people walking slow on the sidewalk, poor subway.
3:03 Speaker 00 I didn't say what ticks you off. I said what makes you tick.
3:08 Speaker 01 Although that's all good to know. Although that's all good to know. Yeah.
3:10 Speaker 00 Give us the elevator pitch on you.
3:12 Speaker 04 Yeah. So I have been covering the economy for the past few years. I started out really just grinding in the housing market area. And so really focused on mortgage rates in particular.
3:23 Speaker 01 Oh, exciting.
3:23 Speaker 04 Federal Reserve. Yeah. Fascinating stuff. But over the past two years, I've been transitioning into more economy based reporting. And really, my goal is to be creating content that is not for the people in the high level offices on Wall Street. It's for people that did not study economics. I didn't study economics. So I, as I've been teaching myself, I want to be creating content that is understandable and is clear to how it affects you. Think that's an area where the playing field hasn't always been level of some, you could read the Wall Street Journal and not understand what they're talking about.
4:00 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. The, the main street, if you will, the main street.
4:02 Speaker 04 Yeah. I want to cut through that jargon because it's, it's frustrating to me when it just seems so obtuse.
4:08 Speaker 01 How do you get from, you know, to the CNET economics desk? Where did you start? How did you get to that beat? And then we're not going to be talking about that as much today. We're going to be talking about job search, the landscape, those types of things and how they all come together. But a little bit about you, though, how did you get to the economics beat?
4:27 Speaker 04 Honestly, I wish I had. The story, I really just got placed there out of college. And when I tell you that when I started, I did not know what a HELOC was. I, it really just, I had an internship, signed a full-time offer, and my first beat was actually covering health and wellness as an editor. And so I was terrified and I ended up here and ended up really liking it. And because I love doing research, love data, and that has all of those aspects in this coverage. So I wish there was some fascinating story, but I kind of was plopped here.
5:05 Speaker 00 Nothing says thrills and chills like stagflation. So let's, let's party, baby. Let's go. Let's do this.
5:12 Speaker 01 One of the things that we try to get into our listeners' brains is that the workforce is the economy. Without the workforce, you have no economy. So what you're doing is you're actually, you started at the economy and you're working your way down. And the article that actually just came out this week's called, "Why Can't I Get a Job Right Now? Nine Expert Tips to Stand Out to Recruiters." I don't know if you'd call me an expert and I've been quoted, so that's suspect.
5:35 Speaker 00 She quoted you for the article, Chad, so you're clearly an expert.
5:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, whatever. From ghosting to burnout, here's how you stay sane. Good luck, kids. And get hired in a brutal, brutal job market. So what, what landed you with this? Cause you're talking about housing, stagflation, and now you're like-
5:55 Speaker 00 To ghosting, housing to ghosting.
5:56 Speaker 01 This job market sucks.
5:59 Speaker 04 So it started with everything that we cover on the economy basis. A lot of it is data. And there's a pretty big disconnect when you look at the numbers and you see unemployment low. I think it's at 4.2 right now. And historically, yes, low. But then you'll see these headlines saying, robust job market, everything's great, you know, no need to cut interest rates. And then you-
6:21 Speaker 01 Lies, lies.
6:24 Speaker 04 Ask anyone, or if you just scroll on LinkedIn. And you know, my editor and I have just been sending these posts to each other back and forth, like, "Look at this, look at this." All these stories of people who are desperate to work and are having no luck. And it really- Really struck me at this time of year because people are graduating from college. They're graduating from high school and especially leaving college. You think with this degree, you're told it should be easy to find a job. And the reality is very opposite. And so we wanted to do two things here. And one is just make it clear that your feelings of that struggle are very real. And here are, you know, the strategies that you can use. We don't just want to be doom and gloom and say this all sucks, which it does.
7:11 Speaker 04 But I think we could probably all agree there's enough depressing news out there right now. And so.
7:16 Speaker 00 What do you, what do you think is the disconnect? I mean, we get headlines about, you know, unemployment rate is still four percentish. You know, inflation is under control. Everything seems rosy in the headlines, but I, we, I think we agree with you. Like the, the, the stories on the street is if I'm right out of college, it's really hard to get a job. If I'm even Gen X where I should be making the most money, I'm being replaced by younger workers who can use AI automation, of course, we're hearing a lot about.
7:42 Speaker 01 They're cheaper too.
7:43 Speaker 00 Can you crystallize it for us? What is going on with the numbers that the government's giving us and what people are saying on the street?
7:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, of course. I think there's two aspects here that one, the disconnect on an emotional level is that I could say unemployment's at 4.2%. But what does that mean? Like what it means to people is how they feel about the job market. And if they can't get a job or they can't get a well-paying job or find, you know, gainful employment, that's not a healthy labor market to them regardless of unemployment rate. The other part of it is that the way data is collected by the BLS and reported really does not reflect, you know, what the situation is actually like. And so I often refer to LICEP, which is Jean Lovewig's research center, where he measures the true rate of unemployment, the true quality of life index.
8:30 Speaker 04 And I believe his figures would show that the true rate of unemployment is actually something closer to 25%.
8:36 Speaker 00 Whoa.
8:38 Speaker 04 It's really striking because it doesn't just, it has a much broader view of the data. And I think he's doing some amazing stuff there. And so that's the, on the statistical side of things, there is a genuine disconnect. And we're even now starting to see questions about the quality of all the reports we're getting, inflation data like we got this morning. And so there's a disconnect on both ends there.
9:00 Speaker 01 So the BLS data is always been, it's been suspect for a long time because it's looking backwards 30 days. There are companies in our space like Aspen Tech Labs and LinkUp. And I mean, in just a ton of like, I think Lightcast even does it, but they're all focused on, jobs are available right now, right? So it's like real time data, what's open, what industries, et cetera, et cetera. And it kind of to answer, I think Joel's question, if they shared those real numbers, Joel, it's called mutiny. It's called rebellion. It's called bullshit, right? They would be calling bullshit on what's actually happening. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. So it sounds like trying to keep people somewhat at bay, even though they feel it.
9:42 Speaker 04 Yeah. And I mean, I will say there are pieces of data that do show this pain that are feeling, and people kind of discount them. So whether that's ADP numbers, whether that's, you know, consumer confidence. One thing that is pretty important is hiring. Hiring has slowed down and we can see that that's clear as day. And so
10:01 Speaker 01 Layoffs are up?
10:02 Speaker 04 Yeah, people don't really highlight that as much because they focus on the big number, the CPI, the unemployment rate, but that's significant. And there's other, you know, research from other companies that people who have been out of work in 2024 are still looking for work now. You know, jobless claims, but also continuing, continuing jobless claims. Like there are ways that you can see this weakness. I just don't think it's being highlighted. Um, and you know, the people.
10:28 Speaker 00 What's your sense? Cause I think it's blue collar and white collar and maybe no collar. Um, what sort of your take on, is everyone feeling the pain? Are there spots where there is sort of a healthy labor market? What did you find?
10:39 Speaker 04 I think there's pain being felt across the spectrum. If you look online, there are people who are saying they can't even get a job at a fast food restaurant. I've talked to people that have well established in their careers and they never expected to be out of work and be out of work for six months. So I think it's ranging across white collar to blue collar to no collar. I think when you see companies much like the Fed in a wait and see period, they're also in this wait and see and
11:09 Speaker 00 Tariffs tariffs.
11:11 Speaker 04 Tariffs. They're they don't have the incentive to go and invest like we saw in, you know, the hiring boom around the pandemic. So they're going to protect their profits and ultimately that hurts the people who have just invested and taken on massive amounts of debts to get college degrees. That's, you know, hurting so many people.
11:29 Speaker 01 Feels like the perfect storm in a bad way from the standpoint of we're pushing migrants out who are doing incredibly important jobs for the supply chain. Then we're pushing hundreds of thousands of federal employees out. We've got AI that's that are pushing again more white collar people out and all those white collar individuals are not going to go pick tomatoes. They're not going to go work the docks. They're not going to drive semis, right? So you've got that happening. Then you've got kids coming out of school who are deeply in debt, right? So it just seems like this perfect storm of, oh shit.
12:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, Chad, but the government says that they want to put in little screws and iPhones. So I think if we just get that back, we'll be fine. We'll be fine.
12:14 Speaker 04 You know, it definitely is the perfect storm. And I mean, there's a massive influx of really talented people in the labor market and very few roles available. And so the layoffs, the mass federal layoffs could shouldn't have happened, but they couldn't have come at a worse time because there's just so much uncertainty. Yeah. And the part with, you know, losing such a key part of our workforce is where there are fears about the economy slowing down, you know, we're starting to see that.
12:43 Speaker 00 Catherine, you have an interesting perspective because you're in the mortgage space, the real estate and what's going on there. And Chad and I from afar, when COVID hit and money was free, right? Everyone's buying homes. I'm going to live in Vermont and work for a company in San Francisco. You have an interesting perspective, I think, from the work from home, where mortgages are going. There's this, the whole, I guess, phenomenon of no one's leaving their job. It used to be the great resignation. Now it's the great stay. Cycles. Where you sit with such an expertise in mortgages and real estate, what are you seeing in terms of the job market and where you live kind of every day?
13:16 Speaker 04 Right. I mean, there is, like you said, with the great stay, we're also seeing that with mortgage rates. That's the lock-in effect. So people who got those mortgages in 2020, 2021, when they're below 3%, congrats to them, honestly. They can't afford to move somewhere else and take on a new mortgage that's double that rate, especially considering that home prices have went up astronomically and are not going to be coming down, even if they're slower in how they're increasing. And so I think people are feeling really boxed into a corner in terms of where they can go to work. And as these return to office mandates are kind of spreading, I mean, we're going to start to see that at some point, people do need to buy and sell homes because they don't have a choice. They're getting
14:01 Speaker 04 married, they're having kids, they're getting divorced. And so you do see some of those transactions happening, but I mean, you can't afford to move and you don't have to. I think that's putting a lot of pressure on people. And that's why we're not seeing, we haven't had like a good spring home buying season in years.
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15:07 Speaker 00 Don't mind that you're stuck where you are because then you can't leave, right?
15:11 Speaker 01 Well, and they don't have to give you raises and they don't have to do anything to be quite frank.
15:16 Speaker 04 And there's also that fear of layoffs. Are you, you know, I mean, they're happening and if you're in certain industries like tech or media, media especially, there's always that kind of fear. You're going to be less likely to want to take on a big purchase, refinance your mortgage. If you go to 3%, I don't know why you would be refinancing now, but you know, there's also that pressure that's, people don't feel like they have the, like in a real estate situation, there's a buyer's market and there's a seller's market. There's also like the hiring. Right now it's clear. I think employers always kind of have the upper hand, but it feels very starkly employer's market and a seller's market.
15:53 Speaker 01 Yeah. Okay. So let's, let's go into an extension of the, of the article. We've got Catherine here. She wrote the article. I'm sure she has even more questions that she would like to dig into, but we do too. So as you, you picked these nine focus areas. Was that pretty much because the feedback that you got, you distilled it down and that's pretty much, pretty much how you picked it?
16:14 Speaker 04 Yeah, pretty much. Um, as I talked to various people, I wanted to get there. I mean, there's a lot of boilerplate answers out there. You could make a list of 45 tips. You can make a list of three tips. But I, I did want it to be directly from these experts, not just me spewing stuff as someone who is employed and not looking for a job. You know, I wanted that to be real, but I mean, some of the tips, like networking, that everyone would suggest.
16:39 Speaker 00 As old as time. Yes.
16:41 Speaker 04 But I think especially, I think about my parents, if they had to get back into the labor market today and they had to go through optimizing their resume for ATS, that would be a brain shock to them. And so I think there are a lot of people that don't know about that or its prevalence, even if it's not that new of a technology.
17:00 Speaker 01 Let's go ahead and dig into that because that's your second point. Optimize your resume for automated software. I don't know how many people in our industry, their brains would blow up if they heard you say that. Because it's so, and here's why. It's so hard because you don't know what system you're actually applying into. And there are so many different. tracked systems. Not to mention, there are so many point solutions that fit on top of the applicant tracking systems and that's hard. Then you've got Workday, who's now in court because they're discriminating because of their AI, which probably wasn't AI in the first place. But anyway, there's a lot of just crazy, mixed up shit. But to be able to say optimize your resume for for an automated system, I mean, that's, that's difficult. It's, it's, it's very difficult to be able to game the system, but
17:44 Speaker 00 Beat the computer, beat the computer to get a job, like.
17:47 Speaker 01 And that's where your first point was, you know, quality over quantity. You're seeing people go in and literally apply and even use some of these AI systems to be able to apply for a thousand jobs a day, right? So you can do these different things and you're hoping that that AI can figure out the best way for the system, whatever system that whatever applicant track system that is, to be able to to actually get you in the door. But to be quite frank, right now, it's a toss up. So, I mean, that's hard for job seekers to be able to give them one way to go and optimize your resume. They just can't do it. It's hard.
18:24 Speaker 04 Yeah. And, you know, I had, we had cut down that section a lot because we had a lot of very specific stuff. But the point is, you can't really give that specific advice because then everyone will, you know, do the same thing. And I mean, it is, as Daniel was out told me, it's not about beating the computer. It's really trying to work with it. And if you know how to use these systems, whether you're using chat to PT, if that's back up and running again, I think it was out yesterday, or you're using a service to help you optimize. I mean, you really still do need to put in the elbow grease and like, know what the job description is. But I think you also can't fly blind and just hope your resume fits because you think you're qualified for the job.
19:08 Speaker 00 You talked to a wide range of, I guess, generations for the article. Give us a sense of are younger people sort of doing this automated lazy apply thousands of applications versus what maybe older people like us are doing? Is everyone doing the same thing? Like, what did you find in your research as terms in terms of generation breakdown?
19:27 Speaker 04 I didn't find a huge difference across generations. Um, I imagine that maybe there is much higher usage among younger generations of AI and things like that. But I would also probably argue that people that have been in school and have been handing in AI-generated essays and papers have learned that teachers and professors have their own ways of spotting that and they've probably felt that backfire on them before. And so I think that's an interesting side of the coin that people don't always talk about. They think that younger generations are lazier.
19:57 Speaker 00 Could there be more automation with the older folks than the younger folks?
20:01 Speaker 04 It depends.
20:02 Speaker 00 Cause they have that experience. Interesting.
20:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, the people that I've talked to in the older range who are later on in their career are using these AI platforms. Because especially when you've been out of work for months at a time, there's no doubt that you haven't been Googling. What am I doing wrong? And there's no doubt that you're coming across that ATS things exist. So of course you're going to try it if you're, if you haven't before and that's not working for you.
20:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think the, the biggest differentiation that I've seen, Joel, is Xers or, I don't know. Boomers don't even look for jobs anymore, but Xers and millennials are more apt to use desktop versus mobile. You got the kids that are out there and they're using their, their, their mobile apps to be able to, to do that. And it's just what you feel comfortable with. But, uh, yeah, I mean, and, and for me, it's funny because we talk to employers all the time. And employers talking about job seekers gaming the system using AI. It's like, wait a minute, timeout. We just had a long discussion about you using AI, right? So this isn't, it's good for the goose. It's good for the gander. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that. And to be quite frank, if they're not lying on their resume, right?
21:08 Speaker 01 If they are meeting the requirements of the job and that's what they're saying, then who cares if they use Chad GPT, Chad GPT, or even Joel GPT, right? It doesn't, it doesn't matter.
21:19 Speaker 00 That's a tech no one needs to be using, Chad, just so you know.
21:22 Speaker 01 It's full of fart jokes.
21:23 Speaker 00 Makes me think of the duality of, of ghosting, right? How many recruiters, oh, applicants, they don't message me back. They don't, well, guess what, dude? You've been doing the same to them for decades. Like now you're complaining about it. What did you find about, uh, on ghosting, Catherine? Now you had some thoughts on that. I know.
21:38 Speaker 04 Yeah, ghosting is super prevalent. And I mean, it does happen on both sides, but obviously it's way more painful if you're the one that is looking for a job. I think there's a figure that forty percent of people are experiencing ghosting and they're applying to more jobs.
21:54 Speaker 00 We can do better than that employers. My God, forty percent.
21:58 Speaker 04 Also, what the people I've talked to, they just want to like a rejection email. They're not looking for a the informational interview. They just want to know. It is just one closer closure. So just tell me if I didn't get the role or the interview and don't leave me hanging for months on end. And then you get a random automated email two years later that you didn't get the role.
22:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
22:17 Speaker 04 It's painful. And I think people employers do owe applicants at least that if they're gonna just say that they can't use AI.
22:24 Speaker 00 Hello, with AI, there's no reason why they can't have some sort of a custom like, thanks for playing.
22:30 Speaker 01 Even before AI.
22:31 Speaker 00 Direction. Well, yeah, even before I remember the old postcards I would get in the mail like, thanks for applying. Here's a coupon for a free chalupa.
22:39 Speaker 01 That's why you always applied to the.
22:41 Speaker 00 That's why I only I only applied to Taco Bell for the for the coupons, but that's that's a different podcast.
22:46 Speaker 01 So digging into this, Catherine, was there is there anything that you wanted to like, dig into with a couple of old souls like ours? Joel's is more of an old soul than mine.
22:58 Speaker 00 You're older than me, just for the record.
22:59 Speaker 01 I said, your soul. I didn't say.
23:00 Speaker 00 So, yes.
23:02 Speaker 01 Anything from your side that that you would like to know?
23:05 Speaker 04 Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. So I was kind of curious. The last time I was looking for a job was in the pandemic. So I obviously felt like when mortgage rates were really low, it was a little bit easier, at least for me. How has the job market really changed since then with the normalization of remote work? Maybe it's de-normalizing now. How has that really changed hiring practices?
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24:41 Speaker 00 It's showtime. It has created an incredible amount of volatility, uncertainty, fear, and doubt. I think that we've moved to a place where I just want a job in X to I want a job in X in this location at this company. So like to get that right is really challenging for people because a lot of people just want a job. Like ideally, I want to do this here and for this amount of money. And so you want that, but then you also have this, like we said, perfect storm of competition. Companies are like putting everything on pause. There are fewer recruiters than there ever used to be. And companies, to their defense, they're trying to figure out how do we automate things with fewer recruiters? And what does that look like?
25:23 Speaker 00 And so it becomes a situation where zig when everyone else is zagging. And I think it's a fool's errand to think that if I can just apply to jobs and if I word my resume correctly, that I'm going to get through the filters and magically get a job. Like I think, call me an old soul, that's fine. But like, there's a lot to be said for old-fashioned networking, getting on LinkedIn, connecting with people. We had a great interview with someone searching for a job. Her strategy was, I'm going to create content on LinkedIn. I'm going to put that I'm open for. Work, I'm going to connect with people at companies that I find interesting and I might want to work with, build the connection and then like look for job opportunities. That's not what most people do, but that is very effective. So when I give advice for searching for a job and
26:06 Speaker 00 and it's easier to create content than ever before with AI tools like pick a topic that's timely, write an opinion about it, put your own spin on it and put it on LinkedIn. Inevitably, people are going to going to engage, find you interesting, want to give you a job. So that's where I think the magic, the humanness is more important than ever before, even though we keep talking about automation and tools and blasting your shit everywhere. Like going back to the basics, there's a lot to be said for that, in my opinion.
26:34 Speaker 01 There's a, an individual is looking for branding jobs and you know how they've got the open to network or open little, little frame. Well, she put desperate, she put desperate on hers and she received a ton of posts that were written about her, people that were pointing back to her. And again, that was more branding than anything else. And, and one of the things that I think that if you could say to, to any job seeker that's out there today is that yes, it's important to work on your resume. Yes, it's important to go through the process. Yes, it's incredibly important to network, but what will always, I wouldn't want to say make you recession proof, but to make you more likely to be recession proof is your brand. People want to be able to buy into
27:17 Speaker 01 your brand and who you are and they won't see that on a resume, right? If they, if they see that in a short video, if they see that in posts, if they see all these different things and you're in a specific industry and that, and that's another point is that, you know, Joel and I've been in this same industry for 25 years. If you have individuals who jump around industry to industry, it's really, really hard to build networks. You build like many ecosystems that aren't connected in most cases. So, you know, to be focused, to be disciplined, to, to look for that industry and it doesn't have to be right out of the gates. I was in, I was in radio before I actually got here, but it doesn't have to be right out of the gate. To be able to be disciplined and focused so that you can build that network because that network isn't just for now, it's four or five years from now, 10 years from
28:03 Speaker 00 Twenty years from now, when experts like us are looking for jobs.
28:06 Speaker 04 Yeah, and I think that raises an interesting point for the younger generations. I think they both have an upper hand here because they perhaps are more tech savvy and are
28:16 Speaker 00 You shut your mouth.
28:17 Speaker 04 brand building, right? Because they're and they they know about influencer culture. They know about the importance of self branding, but they also are less practiced in the art of networking, I would say.
28:28 Speaker 00 No shit.
28:29 Speaker 04 They don't want to get on the phone to call and make a doctor's appointment. And and covid really stunted that. I mean, many people have never even been to an in person job interview. The idea of going for a coffee chat that's not virtual, getting an actual cup of coffee, that can be really intimidating. And I think they can not hide behind the online applications, but it's a lot more instant gratification to fire off fifty applications in one day than it is to do a cold outreach email. And really present yourself that way. And so I think especially for younger generations.
29:02 Speaker 00 But but guess what? That's an opportunity because if fewer people are doing it, then you have a greater opportunity to cut through the clutter and and do the thing, do the face to face. And look, there's there's a conference for everything, local conferences, regional, national, global. I would venture to say that if you were a young person and called any conference that's within the realm of your expertise and said, hey, I'm a recent grad, I want to get in this. I don't, you know, I don't have a lot of money or job, like, can I get a scholarship to come? Or like, can I just, I would guarantee most conferences would say, sure, come and then be prepared and start networking, start having conversations. And most of the things that happen in conferences happen after all the PowerPoint presentations and the keynote speaking. Make sure that you're doing that stuff because that's where deals happen.
29:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
29:47 Speaker 01 We also have a really good friend of ours, J T O'Donnell, who is big on hustle culture. And she really believes that there's going to be developing or evolving in a hustle culture kind of gig economy where you don't just have one job, you have, you know, several jobs. And she, because she's an influencer, has like 1.4 million followers on TikTok. She's also created An influencer agency and so to be able to to really look at her vision for what she's done for herself and the actual revenue stream she'd been able to make for herself and then to be able to go ahead and and and help push that out of the market. Do you see that as kind of like just a
30:30 Speaker 01 a short gap solution? Or do you think that that's really how the market's moving where it's definitely not going to be, we're going to have a job like our like our grandparents did for 40 years, right? And get a pension. That's just, those days are gone. Do you think that it's going to be more of kind of like side hustles along with part-time jobs and whatnot?
30:49 Speaker 04 I mean, at this point, considering how high the cost of living is and the fact that wages aren't keeping pace, it almost feels like a necessity for people to have side gigs if they can. I mean, some people, they're like, I'm already working three jobs just to pay my rent. So, yeah, but I mean, I have always tried to be doing side gigs since I was a kid and then still in my twenties, I'm walking dogs, I'm taking babysitting jobs wherever I can because like you said, I mean, I don't think you can ever be recession proof, but I mean, especially in a very uncertain economy. And if you see you can make money online, doing influencer stuff or go to old fashioned babysitting, I mean, especially now, I think that's worth looking into.
31:29 Speaker 01 I tried babysitting and no one would hire me. I don't, I don't know why. I don't know why.
31:33 Speaker 04 I'll give you some pointers.
31:35 Speaker 01 I don't want to get too deep into that one.
31:39 Speaker 00 The gig economy, are you, are you bullish on that? Or has it been sort of less? And one of the things I think you also brought up sort of upskilling or learning. And I think, I think it deserves sort of talking about, if you have something you're passionate about, the ways to learn more and get credentials and badges, whether that's LinkedIn or wherever else. I mean, you, you kind of dove into that. What did you find? Cause I think that's sort of a new way that people can get opportunities by getting some, you know, new certifications.
32:05 Speaker 04 Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm bullish on gig economy. I think it's been here, it'll be here to stay. I don't know how. It really depends on where the economy goes. But in terms of upskilling, I do think that's a really great way to be filling gaps on your resume, especially if you're long-term unemployed. I mean, it shows that you're, you know, Self-directed, that you're proactive, that you're willing to put in that time. I mean, and this is something that you can do and probably especially should be doing while you're still employed. And so, for example, in my role, I've found I really like data visualization. I'll be making graphics on Canva, but I don't have any formal training. But there are courses that I can take and that have been, I've started taking to kind of really establish my skillset in that area.
32:46 Speaker 04 And that has really nothing to do with my current job, but I want to be able to include that on my resume in the future. And so I think that is probably where people, in addition to networking, should be really focused on building their skills. And at the bottom of my article, I included a very long list of different free online resources that you can kind of explore. And yeah, you should be learning about AI if you haven't already used it, but there are so many. If you can learn to code, one of my goals for the year is to be a lot more proficient in HTML, even though there is AI now. But I think that's, that and networking is where people should really be focusing their time.
33:23 Speaker 01 So on the upskilling and employee development side of the house, we talked in the green room about, yesterday, we talked to Patrick McGee, the author of Apple in China, he's an economist. And one of the things that he was able to uncover is that Apple is spending $55 billion a year in China, training their employees in China. We don't have that kind of reciprocation in the US. And, and what seems to have happened since trickle-down economics and Reagan and all that happy horseshit that happened back in the eighties, it's really trickled down in a bad way for us because we're not seeing companies spend money on developing the community that they live in, number one, which is their, which is their workforce.
34:06 Speaker 01 And they're waiting for governments, right, to be able, for, for, you know, corporate charity to be able to do that for them, right? But yet, but yet, we've got Apple spending $55 billion a year in China to skill, upskill, develop their people and they're taking great minds from, you know, the US and other areas to be able to do that. What the hell and when can we finally figure? That that is the model, and we had that model before, by the way. That's the model that we have to get back to. We have to train our people for what they're ready for. And why do we do that? Because if we have trained people, they're going to be more efficient. They're going to be more proficient. They're going to be up to the job much faster, which means more revenue.
34:50 Speaker 01 Right? And that's what capitalism is about. Am I wrong? I mean, why aren't we spending money on our, on our, on our people and also our communities?
34:57 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, a two week onboarding, some of them are shorter. Some of them are one day onboarding to a new role. I mean, you're going through some really standard template PowerPoints. You're not, you know, on the job training that really just starts when you actually have your responsibilities. And I think that's a disservice, especially to the younger generations. Or also people that are coming back to the workforce after being out for a long time. They're not, they don't have these L and D like opportunities. That was one of the questions I wanted you guys to talk about. The importance of that and whether you see any hope for that return. If people aren't hiring, will they at least reinvest some money towards, you know, providing those learning experiences for their employees?
35:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't see it in this country unless it's, unless it's forced, unless it's forced. And to be quite frank, the reason why Apple, obviously they were doing that is because they, they knew they could get cheaper labor. They knew that the, the materials to make the phones were there, so it made it much easier. I mean, just from an economic and a supply chain standpoint, it just made sense, right? From our standpoint, when we're sitting back and we're waiting for the gate, and they know that China's not going to give them any money. They know that China's not going to do what the United States will do and give them, you know, that, that charity or that tax break or what have you.
36:16 Speaker 01 So until we have an administration that's in place that holds these organizations and CEOs feet to the fire, I don't see that. And you even said earlier that wages aren't staying up with inflation or, but yet, CEO wages since 1978 have gone up 1300%. 1300% where everybody else is at 14%, right?
36:38 Speaker 04 I think you see it in small pockets, there, they're starting to do some training. For people who are graduating high school and they want them to join into the
36:46 Speaker 00 The trades.
36:47 Speaker 04 Industry, but yeah, and we need more of that, but we also need more accountants and you know, things like that. And yeah, really, it's one of those areas where you have to make the investment, even though you won't see the immediate return. I think about that in terms of like making sure broadband is widely available across the country. You won't see an immediate return on investment, but down the line, you're, you know, connecting more people, you're boosting local economies.
37:13 Speaker 00 I would, I would say companies are way more focused on how do we get rid of people than they are, how do we retrain and get people back into these jobs?
37:21 Speaker 01 This is the antithesis of actual performance.
37:24 Speaker 00 Until they realize robots don't eat hamburgers and who are we going to sell this stuff to? My last thing to you, Catherine, you talk a lot about speed, you know, speed to apply, speed to sort of communicate. What sort of tools or tips or things did you find of how job seekers can like be Johnny on the spot when something comes available?
37:42 Speaker 04 Yeah, I would say job alerts for sure. Set up multiple and not just for like, let's say you have a job alert for editor, maybe also have content specialists, different ones and be checking regularly. I mean, it's painfully boring and that is sort of the rule of the game. I mean, with such a competitive market, you'll see a job posted and an hour later, there's a hundred applicants and it really doesn't pay to be applying to a job that's been listed for three weeks. It probably already has been filled or they just forgot to take it down or it's a ghost job, which is a whole nother thing. And so, yeah, really being on top of it and not just, you know, applying, but also using that time to start doing outreach. So you make, you send in your application and you try and contact the hiring manager if you can, tap into your network. Do
38:27 Speaker 04 you know anyone who's connected, whether to the industry or if at the company itself? Yeah, it's not about the speed at which you fire off a huge number of applications, but the speed at which you're able to jump on it with adaptable resume. And so I think a lot of people I talked to talked about having, you know, multiple resumes that you can easily tweak and they still showcase your experience, but maybe you have one bullet point higher on the list. On one resume versus another.
38:54 Speaker 00 And I would add to that, don't just look at job alerts, but look at the news, people. Who's getting funded? Who's getting series A, B, C, D, and E? Because companies that get money, hire people. And if you get on it before the job postings, you're going to be that much better for it. So I'll throw that in there, Catherine, as well.
39:14 Speaker 01 That's Catherine Watt, writer at CNET. She was, she was on the economics beat, she was on the mortgage beat, but now she's on the Chad and Cheese beat. Catherine, if people want to find out more about you, they want to see what you're writing about, those types of things, where would you send them?
39:32 Speaker 04 I would send you to cnet.com, specifically CNET Money. You could also find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on my personal site, Catherine Watt Editorial. And yeah, this was such a great conversation, hope to be back.
39:44 Speaker 01 Thanks for coming.
39:45 Speaker 00 I bet there are a lot of job opportunities in those CNET stories as well, Catherine. So tune into CNET, everybody. Chad, that is another one in the can. We out.
39:55 Speaker 06 Thank you for listening to, what's it called? A podcast, the Chad, the cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word, so weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode.
40:39 Speaker 06 And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese, so weird. We out.
Previous Meta vs. OpenAI: The Poaching Wars Next Shredded: CareerBuilder, Monster, Sixcel, Teleperformance, Appcast, Traxlo, Udemy & More Page updated November 11, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
