Explaining the ‘Watt-Bit Spread’

Editor’s note: The uncertainties of data center construction — like when, where, and how much to build — are as pressing as ever. So we’re revisiting a conversation with Brian Janous, co-founder and chief commercial officer at data center developer Cloverleaf Infrastructure. In this episode, he explains his theory of the ‘Watt-Bit Spread’, which offers insightful heuristics for understanding how data centers are driving change in the power sector. Every data center company is after one thing right now: power. Electricity used to be an afterthought in data center construction, but in the AI arms race access to power has become critical because more electrons means more powerful AI models. But how and when these companies will get those electrons is unclear. Utilities have been inundated with new load requests, and it takes time to build new capacity. Given these uncertainties, how do data center companies make the high-stakes decisions about how much to build? How sustainable is the rate of construction? And how much will these data center companies pay for electricity? In this episode, Shayle talks to Brian Janous, co-founder and chief commercial officer at data center developer Cloverleaf Infrastructure. Brian recently explained how he thinks about these questions in a LinkedIn post titled “The Watt-Bit Spread,” which argues that the value of watts is incredibly high right now, and the cost of those watts is too low. Shayle and Brian cover topics like: The unclear data center demand and high costs that are making data center companies hesitant to build How the skills required for data center development have shifted from real estate and fiber to energy Why higher power prices are needed to incentivize new generation Potential solutions for better pricing electricity and speeding up the construction of new generation Recommended resources Latitude Media: AES exec on data center load: 'It's like nothing we’ve ever seen' Latitude Media: Mapping the data center power demand problem, in three charts Latitude Media: Are we thinking about the data center energy problem in the right ways? Catalyst: Can chip efficiency slow AI's energy demand? Catalyst: Under the hood of data center power demand Sequoia Capital: AI’s $600B Question Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor. Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a solar and energy storage development and procurement platform helping clients make optimal decisions, saving significant time, money, and reducing risk. Subscribers instantly access pricing, product, and supplier data. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude. Catalyst is supported by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform by visiting energyhub.com. Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the public relations and strategic marketing agency of choice for climate and energy leaders. If you're a startup, investor, or global corporation that's looking to tell your climate story, demonstrate your impact, or accelerate your growth, Antenna Group's team of industry insiders is ready to help. Learn more at antennagroup.com.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shayle Kann?

  Hey everyone. This week, we are bringing you a rerun of an episode I really enjoyed. This is from last December. It was a conversation with my friend Brian Janis, who is a co-founder of Cloverleaf Infrastructure. Prior to that, ran Energy at Microsoft. And we were talking about this concept that he coined called the watt-bit spread, which helps to explain the dynamic that we've been talking about ad nauseam, to be honest, on this podcast around the intersection of data centers and electricity. The reason I wanted to play it again is partially just because it's as relevant as it was when we first released it, but second, because I still see, I think, a lot of people out in the market who sort of have a misconception of what's going on in the economic equation between data centers and the electricity market.

• 0:44Shayle Kann?

  And I still think the watt-bit spread is the best way to explain the underlying economics for all parties involved and why it's different from other resources that we've seen on the grid before. So just to remind you of what this is and why it's important, here's Brian Janis talking about the watt-bit spread.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Latitude Media, covering the new frontiers of the energy transition.

• 1:09Shayle Kann?

  I'm Shayle Khan, and this is Catalyst.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  I don't know that there's any energy conversion that creates a greater return than turning an electron into a bit.

• 1:25Shayle Kann?

  You can't really understand the dynamics of AI and energy until you understand the watt-bit spread.

• 1:39Speaker 01

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• 2:22Speaker 01

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• 2:37Shayle Kann?

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• 3:11Shayle Kann?

  I'm Shayle Khan. I invest in revolutionary climate technologies at Energy Impact Partners. Welcome. All right, so the world of energy is usually one where change occurs kind of slowly, but once momentum builds, it becomes this incredibly powerful force that changes the world. Just taking one example of that, let's talk about the rise of natural gas for power generation in the US, which has been a big story. But in the year 2000, natural gas made up about 17% of power generation here in the US. By 2020, it was 40%. So by the standards of this market, that's a seismic shift. But that's also 20 years to get a 2.3x market share growth. Contrast that with the pace of change that we're seeing today in the AI landscape,

• 3:55Shayle Kann?

  and you can start to understand where the nexus of these two things, compute and power, is showing all sorts of tension. We've talked about it before on this podcast numerous times. It's emerged as clearly the biggest issue in the electricity sector right now, and arguably one of, if not the biggest issue, in the AI sector as well. But Amidst the frenzy and the hype, of course, what I feel like has been missing is sort of a unified narrative of what's actually going on and the underlying drivers of everybody's behavior. Yes, utilities are inundated with large load requests and yes, access to power is probably the critical driver of data center growth today. But what is defining

• 4:40Shayle Kann?

  the amount of growth that we should expect to see? What is defining how those customers will pay and how much they're willing to pay and whether it is sustainable, what they're building right now? My friend Brian Janis has a theory on this that he calls the watt bit spread. He wrote a really good piece on this on LinkedIn a while back that I encourage you to check out. I found it to be a pretty helpful heuristic as I read news articles and talk to folks who are in this industry day to day. So I wanted to talk through it with him. Brian is, of course, the co-founder of Cloverleaf Infrastructure, which develops power-ready sites for large loads like data centers. But he previously spent over a decade as the VP of Energy at Microsoft. Here's Brian. Brian, welcome back.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Thanks, Hal. Appreciate you having me.

• 5:27Shayle Kann?

  All right. So I was thinking about this the other day. Once in a while, you talk to somebody who has been like toiling on a thing or working on a thing, I guess, for a very long time that was sort of out in the outskirts of importance of some market or at least in the general public's understanding and has been building up this big base of experience and knowledge in that space. And then all of a sudden, like something happens in the world and it rockets to the epicenter of everybody's attention. I feel like that's you, right? You've been like focused on like data centers and energy for what 12 years or something like that?

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, 13 years at least.

• 6:05Shayle Kann?

  Yeah. And it's been like, maybe it wasn't, I don't know, you could tell me, right? Maybe it wasn't a momentary like, oh my God, all of a sudden, this is, this is the thing. But it's certainly been, I don't know, the slope has curved upwards for the past couple of years at least. And I'm curious what that experience has been like for you.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I remember when I first joined Microsoft and it was actually right about this time 2011, it still wasn't even clear to me why that job existed. I really thought maybe I would do it for a couple of years and then go on and find something else to do because, I mean, who really wanted to be the energy person at a tech company? Didn't even really understand why that was that important.

• 6:44Shayle Kann?

  You were a cost center, right?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we were just a cost center. We were just paying utility bills. Wasn't particularly strategic, you know, for the company. And I remember I used to tell people on my team, or when I'd be recruiting people, I was like, this is a really cool job. It's great working for a tech company, but you know, energy is never going to be office. Like, no one's going to ever think about it that much. And I remember an old manager telling me, you know, Steve Ballmer probably thinks about energy for one minute a year. And I was like, yeah, that sounds about right. That's probably all the headspace he needs to give it. I certainly would wager to say Satya's thinking about energy a lot more than one minute a year. It truly has become existential for anyone who is, you know, whether you're a big tech company, or whether you're a provider of infrastructure into

• 7:30Speaker 02

  the space, whether you're selling GPUs or equipment that goes in data centers, you know, the ability to acquire the energy needed to build out this infrastructure has become so critical to any industry that touches cloud and AI.

• 7:45Shayle Kann?

  Yeah. All right. So you're now at the epicenter of this madness. And we've talked before on this podcast a little bit about it, but it's been a little while. And so I guess I want to start by bringing us up to speed on what you're seeing in the trenches, so to speak, today. Like, what's changed over the past, I don't know, six to nine months at this nexus of data centers and energy?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Well, the market is still clearly very hot. There's huge demand for data center capacity. Though there is a caveat in there in that I feel like a lot of the big players right now are struggling with something very similar that we struggled with back in the 2010s when we were building out cloud infrastructure, which is exactly how much infrastructure should any one company build? Because you're sort of building for your own stack. Because, I mean, keep in mind, like, Microsoft and Meta, they're not Equinix, right? They don't build data center capacity and then lease it out. I mean, they're largely running first-party platforms. So that makes demand planning pretty tricky.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Because even if you have extraordinarily high conviction, as we did in the early 2010s, that the cloud market was going to be very large, we did not have incredible conviction on exactly what Azure's market share would be versus AWS versus GCP.

• 9:05Shayle Kann?

  Right. My friend David Kahn, different Kahn, but David Kahn from Sequoia coined this term, the $600 billion question, talking about this, which is like, if you add up all of the capex announced and planned from the major players in data centers, it's like $600 billion. And the question is, for any given one of them, like, how much, there's some share of that $600 billion, how much of the revenue, you need $600 billion plus in revenue, or ideally $600 billion plus in earnings to make up for that capex, how much of that can they attain? And so there's like a, it's a classic, you've got a land grab combined with a tragedy of the commons, right? And like, figuring that out is super hard.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  It's really hard. And what happened during the 2010s is you had the colocation market sort of fill the gap, because every company under-invested in their infrastructure, which is why Microsoft and Amazon and Google leased capacity from the likes of Vantage and Cyrus One and Equinix. But the difference between That era and this era is the skill set needed to fill that gap is not the skill set that was used in the prior era, which was being really good at real estate and fiber. And if you look at the makeup of those colocation companies, they are largely real estate and fiber dominated in terms of the talent and the skills.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Because energy wasn't a challenge when we were building 50 megawatt data centers or 100 megawatt data centers. Now, the world has changed and those companies that that filled the gap in the last era are really not particularly well equipped equipped to fill it in this era. Because the the depth of energy talent at those companies is actually quite thin. And so it's really changed the problem set to being not solving for can I find real estate in some proximity to Northern Virginia, but where can I get a gigawatt of power, which is a completely different challenge.

• 11:02Shayle Kann?

  Does it turn out, we've talked about this before, right? And like the on the stack ranked list of important factors in data center citing power shot to the top and remains at the top now. But does it turn out that the other ones, fiber and land and all that water, labor, are those things just less important than everyone considered them to be five or 10 years ago? Or are they just as important and there just happens to be one thing that's more important than the rest of them?

• 11:30Speaker 02

  I mean, I think they're all still important. I mean, we're still going to have, you know, demand for services with low latency. In some ways, labor has actually become more important in that if the data centers we're building today are 10x the data centers we were building just a few years ago, the amount of construction labor required is enormous. And so I think in a lot of ways, people are underestimating the importance of labor. And that is going to become a challenge because there has been this tendency to say, well, we'll just go out in the middle of nowhere and build these giant data centers, which

• 12:04Shayle Kann?

  Because of the power problem, right? Like Northern Virginia is densely populated, but like middle of nowhere, southwestern United States, where you might have a gigawatt of power capacity is not.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Right. But if all if too many people try to do that all at once, you're going to create a labor problem. And you're going to have significant delays in getting a lot of this infrastructure stood up.

• 12:26Shayle Kann?

  Yeah. All right. So it's clearly still dynamic. I mean, I think I sort of interrupted you, but you were basically saying like, it's still a hot market. Everybody's trying to build still. I mean, if you're a power provider, you're still getting inundated with large load interconnection requests more so than ever perhaps. But there is this demand planning challenge. Is that manifesting in like, any change in strategy for those who are trying to build data centers? Are they, are they pulling back? Are they pairing the plans? Are they just like full steam ahead and hoping?

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's more probably somewhere in the middle. I think there is some pullback. Not because, again, there's not conviction that the, the opportunity is there, but rather, again, for any, any one individual player, you know, the ability to commit billions of dollars to electric utilities to build out more good infrastructure is a hard pill to swallow if you're not fully convinced that you have a customer on the other side of that to receive it. So that, that's the challenge, I think, that the industry's in right now, is that there is still some hesitation when it, when it actually comes time to write that check. And utilities are getting a little more savvy around, you know, really

• 13:40Speaker 02

  holding feet to the fire for some of these, these companies. And some of them are big tech companies and some of them are just two guys with a truck that decided they were going to be data center developers and they go get a queue position and they have to pay $10,000. That's it to, to get in the queue, which is, which is shockingly low. But, you know, utilities have just never had to deal with this before, you know, having this much large load, large load coming in at once. So I think it is, you know, in some ways, sort of looking a little bit like a pullback when it's really just uncertainty. You know, I think the conviction is still very much there in the market that the AI market is going to be huge and we need a ton of infrastructure. But when it comes

• 14:23Speaker 02

  down to writing those checks, it can get pretty problematic at the scale we're talking about.

• 14:27Shayle Kann?

  Yeah. You and I have talked about this before. So correct me where I've gotten how you've explained this to me wrong, but. My recollection is that in the in previous waves here, the way that this market was mostly structured was either for for hyperscale data centers, for large data centers, either a hyperscaler themselves, so Meta, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, would build a data center themselves for their own demand, in which case they have, one presumes, pretty good visibility into how much they're going to need. To your point, if anything, they're maybe conservative historically and they don't build enough, but that means they have especially good visibility that like, we know, we know we're going to need this. Or you had one of the colos, one of those companies that you mentioned before, and then a few

• 15:10Shayle Kann?

  others, who were not really building on spec. Like, they would go where one of the hyperscalers already had nearby sites, or where they had signaled that they had demand and so on. And so, nobody was really building like a, I guess, what I would think of as a merchant data center, and then, and building it, spending a lot of money on it, and then leasing out the capacity. Like, that wasn't happening a whole lot. But as this wave has taken hold, it feels like that started to happen. And maybe what's going to, and that results in all sorts of, like, a bigger pipeline fallout. You'd assume a bigger pipeline fallout over time. That's part of what utilities are concerned about. You know, if you're AEP and you have 80 gigawatts of large load requests, like, you know not all of that

• 15:54Shayle Kann?

  is real. But it's kind of hard to figure out which parts of it are and are not. So to the extent that there's a pullback, I guess the hope would be that we go back to a market where there's reasonable certainty about demand for any given site that is getting developed. And so you can be reasonably certain that if you get the power, this scarce asset, then it will be sufficiently utilized.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the problem that we're seeing today, though, is that in a world of of relative power abundance.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  All you needed to do was get a piece of land, right? You didn't actually have to spend a whole lot of money to, in essence, pre-provision a data center that could be built, say, in 18 months. So you were always sort of 18 months out from being able to push, push bits right into the world for relatively low cost. I mean, the cost of land is a very small contribution to the overall data center.

• 16:50Shayle Kann?

  Can we pause on that for one second? Because we talked about that. I don't think everybody actually recognizes how big a delta there is between the cost of the land and the cost of the shell and the cost of the data center itself. Can you just like quickly walk through?

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, I mean, on a, on a total cost basis, you know, over a 15-year period and, you know, TCO is a way we, we think about it in the world. Land is about 1% of the cost to, to operate a data center, you know, the full stack with servers and everything. So it's, it's pretty inconsequential. So going out and pre-positioning land is, is sort of an easy decision for, for any provider to make. Where it gets problematic, where we're at today, is in a world of, of constraint. It's not just land. It is land plus clear line of sight to power in that same sort of 18 to 24-month time horizon. And if that necessitates the utility, building new generation, building new transmission,

• 17:43Speaker 02

  acquiring, you know, more substation capacity and transformers, the cost now goes up considerably. It's not just that 1% anymore. You're making, you know, multi-billion dollar commitments to utilities in purchase and cancellation agreements. So that, that sort of changes the game. It makes it a much more difficult to, in essence, pre-provision for that power, not to mention the complexities of the utility planning side of, you know, the tariffs and the regulations and the technology and everything that's required to move a piece of dirt into a piece of powered land into a data center. That, that whole equation has become substantially more complex.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  And so it makes it much more difficult for a colocation company or two guys in a truck to, to get to a point where they have a piece of dirt that can, you know, house a data center in 18 months.

• 18:41Speaker 01

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• 19:23Speaker 01

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• 20:50Shayle Kann?

  Okay, so we started to talk a little bit about the economics. You coined this phrase, the watt bit spread, which I think is, actually, I found to be a really useful heuristic for understanding the underlying economics that are driving all the craziness that we're seeing right now. So I want to talk about what the watt bit spread is, and then a little bit about what it tells us about how the behavior in the market that we are seeing and that we might see. So first, maybe describe what the watt bit spread is.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Sure. So the concept came from a lot of thinking about spark spreads in the power world of the delta between the cost of an M and BTU of gas to the value of the electricity you can create with that gas. And it's the same concept here is that the entire data center ecosystem is really about taking watts and turning them into bits. And so there's a value in that conversion, that energy conversion from electrons to light. And that that value is pretty substantial. I mean, I don't know that there's any energy conversion that creates a greater return than turning an electron into a bit. And

• 21:59Speaker 02

  so not to mention the fact that the ability to acquire and collect those electrons then in some ways creates a moat against other folks that would want to try to do the same thing. So the more electrons that you can get a hold of, especially in the AI world, the more value you can create because you can create bigger training models and you can deploy more inferencing. And so that that value of the watt has increased substantially in the last, let's say, 18 to 24 months, you know, as a lot of companies realized, wow, if I can plug in more GPUs, I can build a pretty powerful moat. And so

• 22:40Speaker 02

  We've seen a huge demand, obviously, for getting a hold of these watts. But what you haven't seen is a commensurate increase in the price of the watts. If you look at your standard utility tariff, it's not like the price of electricity has skyrocketed as the demand has increased. And that that actually is a problem in that the market is not accurately reflecting the value of those watts. And when I say a problem, I don't mean, you know, we don't want to see, obviously, rates go up for residential customers and all consumers just because a bunch of AI companies want power. But it's a problem in that if it's not sending the right sort of price signal to utility

• 23:21Speaker 02

  or to an IPP, then we're going to build less energy infrastructure and therefore plug in less GPUs.

• 23:28Shayle Kann?

  So your basic premise here is that the willingness to pay for watts or watt hours is higher than the current price of those watts or watt hours. The value that you can that you can generate with them is higher than the current price. And so one could raise prices if it unlocked more supply. That's you're saying that that's spread, the watt bit spread is high, basically?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Exactly, yes. That if the if the true value of those watts were reflected to electric utilities and to IPPs, then they would be incentivized to build more infrastructure faster. Or or even go further upstream into, say, Hitachi and the production of transformers, right, or switchgear. Those those two have more value than their current market price reflects.

• 24:18Shayle Kann?

  How do we know how high? Like, because one of the challenges here, to your point before about demand uncertainty, my suspicion is there's also a lot of revenue uncertainty. And so right now, there is this arms race and everybody wants, like, if you can get watts, you know, you'll you'll pay a premium and there's a lot of money sloshing around into that space. But is there some risk that the underlying watt bit spread is not as high as it seems today? Like, could it be artificially inflated today by just where we are in the cycle? Or do you think that's a that's a sustainable thing?

• 24:51Speaker 02

  It's it's possible, though I suspect that. Given the, my fundamental belief is that the demand for compute, let's just say through 2030, will exceed the available power in the market. And therefore, the marginal value of the next watt, or gigawatt frankly, that you can produce, will remain quite high for some time. Because there will be a shortage of power available to plug in GPUs over that period. Now, at some point, we will get back to some level of equilibrium where the market starts to settle out. But just given the time dimensions here of what it takes to build out

• 25:36Speaker 02

  energy infrastructure, you know, I feel pretty convinced that we're going to be in a period of shortage and therefore every marginal gigawatt is going to have substantial value to some player in the market.

• 25:48Shayle Kann?

  Sure, though putting myself in the shoes of the infrastructure provider, that timeline worries me. Because right, if I'm, if I'm, you're asking me to build more power generation, you're asking me to build more transmission, you're asking me to spend billions of dollars in CapEx on things that are supposed to last 20, 30, 40 years. And if we have visibility and good certainty into willingness to pay out to 2030, I mean, I'm going to generate two, three years of value at that price by the time I actually build anything out. And so, I need to feel as the infrastructure provider that I have pretty high confidence these assets I build are not going to be stranded or overpriced or whatever. Like, the economic value proposition that I'm offering is sound for a longer time into the future than that.

• 26:33Shayle Kann?

  And that feels like it's where there's a little bit of a disconnect in the market. I think there's a couple of places where there does it disconnect in the market. Because it's easy to just say, okay, well, like raise prices, build more, use that money to build more infrastructure, and everything is going to get solved here. But as you know, as well as I do, like this market, the electricity market is not structured entirely that way. So one of the ways in which I feel like there's a disconnect is just on that timeline. So I wonder how you think about, how do you incentivize the construction of new, long-term infrastructure for an uncertain? Market.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what I say that the way I think about the spread is it's really about the value of capacity in a given year, right? So the value of a megawatt in 2027 is worth more than a value of megawatt in 2032 because there's an assumption that by 2032, power will probably be more abundant, that will have sort of run through this cycle. So the real question of like how you monetize this in a way that's rational for all actors is as a utility, I should look for ways to make investments in my system that allow me to accelerate the delivery of capacity and find entities that are willing to pay

• 27:55Speaker 02

  for that capacity in a given year at a higher price relative to delivery in, you know, five years later. That doesn't mean they're paying, you know, on a per-megawatt-hour basis more forever, but it means they're paying, in essence, higher demand charges to recover the cost of that infrastructure, you know, so that they can get plugged in sooner because that load's not going to go away. I mean, data centers don't really get turned off. Like, once you have the customer, they're going to be there. So that investment will be, in the utility parlance, used and useful, you know, for its useful life. It's really about the timing of when I deliver that first electron. That's what's sort of being mispriced right now.

• 28:38Shayle Kann?

  You also, when you put together this Watt bit spread piece, described it in terms of manufacturing theory in a way that I thought was useful to think about how different actors in this equation are thinking of it in different economic terms. So can you walk through the, like, who is operating how?

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, so in terms of manufacturing, there's sort of two different models. One is sort of lean manufacturing, which says, hold as little inventory as possible. You know, everything's about, you know, just in time. And then if lead time's extended to deliver, that's fine, the customers will just have to wait, but we're going to, you know, improve margins by not having a bunch of excess inventory. There's another model, which is the theory of constraints, which says, No, what you need to focus on is throughput. That's how you create enterprise value. And therefore, you need to find areas of the supply chain or the manufacturing process that tend to become constrained and make sure that you're always building extra capacity. So more labor, more overhead for those particular points of the system.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  So if I'm downstream in the system, so I'm data center operators, I'm cloud providers, I'm Nvidia, I'm OpenAI. I'm very much thinking about the world in terms of theory of constraints. Because again, the cost of the base infrastructure for my end product is actually really low. When I say base infrastructure, I'm talking about land, you know, power, a data center shell. You know, those things are relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of operating, you know, my business. So I would be willing to pay a premium for those things to go faster. Now, if I hop over into the utility world, again, going back to what we were talking about just before, a utility sells an electron in 2027 for the same price it sells it in 2030.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  So what is the incentive the utility has to go faster? What's the incentive the utility has to stockpile 345 KV transformers? None. All they do is say, well, okay, lead times are longer. So it used to be that I could connect a customer in two years, and now it's seven years. And that's okay in sort of the utility world, right? Now, it's not ultimately in their best interest. They should want to go faster and get more customers. But their business model is not designed in such a way to operate in this sort of theory of constraint sort of world.

• 31:01Shayle Kann?

  I think that's mostly true, though. I think people, I know you know this, but a lot of people don't appreciate all of the constraints, not to reuse that term in a different context, that utilities have on them. And so they're thinking about, like, yes, they're incentivized, generally speaking, to invest in capex, to spend capex and earn their regulated rate of return on that capex, and then minimize costs so that the profits they actually gain are as high as possible. But they are subject to regulators who, you know, are unique and specific and have different things that they require. They also, you know, have to place the highest premium on reliability

• 31:45Shayle Kann?

  and resiliency and all these things. It doesn't necessarily cut entirely against what you are saying, but I think what my experience of watching this all play out over the last couple of years has been, okay, a bunch of huge customers started showing up on utilities' doorsteps faster than they ever had before. Utilities started by saying, okay, I'll put you through my normal process, which led to, okay, lead times are getting longer and longer and longer, but they're adjusting to that now. And so I'm curious what you think about, like, we've seen some of this publicly. There, there was a settlement recently, I can't remember which utility in BISO territory, between a bunch of the hyperscalers and the utility around what a new large load interconnection

• 32:29Shayle Kann?

  protocol, I guess, would look like. Like, I think we're starting to see more innovation around this, and I'm curious what you've seen out there so far and what you think it should look like.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there's definitely been some work that utilities done, AEP certainly has been a leader in this around focusing on guaranteeing cost recovery for that. I mean, going back to what the issue you were talking about before is if I build this, you better come, like, you better show up and I'm going to hold you to some minimum amounts, a minimum take or pay for what I build. And that's caused some consternation, again, with the hyperscalers, because going back to what we were talking about before, you know, they don't have perfect visibility into their future demand. And so, you know, if they have to sign up for long-term agreements that guarantees some minimum payment, that's, that's a little problematic. But that, that to me is just sort of the blocking

• 33:23Speaker 02

  and tackling that has to happen when you're, you're going through, you know, this, this like new wave of actual electric demand growth. Utilities obviously are going to be conservative, you know, they're going to want to guarantee that cost recovery. What we haven't really seen from utilities, at least not in any significant degree. Is innovation around how do I, how do I start to capture some of these excess rents that the market is offering me in terms of customers saying, hey, if you go faster, I would be willing to pay a premium. And so for instance, if I'm a utility and I've been looking at, well, say one of your portfolio companies, Form Energy, right? I've been looking at doing a Form Energy project for the last five years and I just haven't been able to

• 34:05Speaker 02

  figure out, you know, what to do with it or how I'm going to get the cost recovery. Because particularly if I'm, if I'm doing any sort of early technology that has some cost premium and I now I've got to recover that across my entire rate base because I don't have any load growth, it's hard to justify making those investments as a utility. But now today, if I can look at a suite of technologies that maybe were on my five-year roadmap to say, well, how would a Form Energy battery or how would a, you know, line vision, dynamic line rating deployment allow me to accelerate the delivery of electrons to a particular subset of customers who are willing to pay to get power sooner? Now I

• 34:47Speaker 02

  can think differently about how I do cost recovery and it can be more targeted towards these customers who have been saying, hey, give me power in 2027, not 2030. And so that's the innovation that we haven't quite seen yet. And this is what I described in that Watts Bit Spread piece is the advanced grid tariff. Thank you to Katie Farrenbacher for that name. We were talking at a conference a couple of months ago about what we should call this thing. And so she came up with advanced grid tariff and I like it. But it's basically the same concept that we have around green tariffs, which is, hey, if I'm a customer like what Google did, you know, in Nevada, you know, if I'm a customer and I am willing

• 35:28Speaker 02

  to pay for a different, in that case, quality of service, right? I want power provided from this, you know, Fervo geothermal project, not just power from the grid, then by all means, you should be willing to do, able to do that. And the commission should approve deals like that because it's not harming the other rate payers. Now, this is the same concept, but it's really about capacity and how do we get electrons flowing sooner on the system? So what investments could utilities make that guarantee full cost recovery from this subset of customers? But allow them to get more out of the existing system faster. And a lot of this is going to be things like grid enhancing technologies, you know, storage as transmission, because these are the things that can go quick.

• 36:13Shayle Kann?

  I think what you're describing, just at the highest level, is the idea that because of this watt bit spread, because there is, there is extra value, extra willingness to pay on behalf of the customer, utilities can take advantage of that by saying, okay, let's have that customer subsidize the cost of a bunch of things that are going to get them power sooner, which is the main thing that they care about. I think in order for that equation to all pencil, just in terms of how the electricity market works, what you want is for those assets to benefit not just that customer. I think this is implied in what you're saying, but I want to make it explicit, right? Like, the benefit should accrue to other ratepayers as well, in the form ultimately

• 36:56Shayle Kann?

  of either higher reliability, I think, or more likely, lower cost. Like, you could imagine, if the willingness to pay is high enough, then the data center customers are subsidizing lower cost electricity ultimately for the rest of the ratepayers. And I don't know how far that can go, but that's kind of where you'd want it to land, I think.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, because ultimately, load growth is good for everyone, right? Having a larger electric grid is inherently good. Having more data centers on the grid is good, because they use power 8,760 hours a year. So there's more cost recovery for more infrastructure and more hours if you have more data centers. So it's inherently a good thing, that the challenge is that sort of, that first dollar that gets spent, right? How does that get recovered? And is that guaranteed to get recovered? And that's where people start to get nervous, of saying, oh, utilities are going to go start spending billions of dollars on new infrastructure. But they're also going to get billions of dollars of new revenue on the other side of that. And so we have to look at sort of the long game on

• 38:03Speaker 02

  What is actually good for the system for all ratepayers, for reliability and for cost? Because I completely agree that we don't want rates going up for average consumers just because utilities are trying to serve data centers. We have to design rates in such a way to ensure that we're doing appropriate cost allocation, which is something utilities have done for decades. I mean, we understand how to do cost allocation, assign it to different rate classes. In this case, though, we're saying utilities should actually start to put a premium on time and the value of capacity and then find customers that are willing to pay that premium so that they can actually move faster.

• 38:43Shayle Kann?

  You mentioned this before, but I've seen it a few times as well, where like, to the extent that utilities or others kind of float concepts like this, there is a bunch of consternation from the customer set about the cost that they're, that's being proposed to them. Do you think that's just, are they just positioning ultimately? And like, if you, if you forced it, they would cave? Or is, or have they not woken up? Like, has the customer not woken up to the actual scale of the watt bit spread yet?

• 39:12Speaker 02

  I think this, I think a little bit of that is positioning. I think a little bit of it is sort of maybe just a lack of really understanding the nature of, of building out large infrastructure. Again, there's a lot of players in this space that aren't particularly sophisticated when it comes to energy systems and utility rates and regulations. There are a lot that are. I mean, a lot of, especially the big tech companies have, you know, really extraordinarily talented energy teams and, you know, know how to work with utilities and regulators. But, you know, again, you've got, if you've got some company that, you know, was going to operate a Bitcoin mine, or they were going to do green hydrogen project, and now they decided, no, I'm, I'm actually a AI data center company now.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  It's like, okay, well, you know, when you start getting questions from utilities about the, the cost of this infrastructure, sometimes people's eyes start to bug out because they see things that end in billions and they're like, whoa, I'm, I'm kind of getting in a lot deeper than I thought. But I think that just shows a, a lack of understanding of the overall value of that electricity. Yes, the cost is very high when we're talking about several hundred megawatts or multiple gigawatts of power. But again, the, the revenue on the other side, or even, even looking at the Overall capex deployment.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  So the the cost of a data center today in terms of the full stack capex deployment all the way through GPUs is about 25 million a megawatt or 25 billion a gigawatt. Right? So if you go to utility and say, hey, I want a gigawatt of power and they say, OK, that's fine, sign here, that's going to be a billion dollars of infrastructure. Yeah, that sounds like a big number, but in the context of the 24 billion that are going to follow it in terms of capital deployed, it's actually not that big. So you just really have to understand it in the full context of the capex deployment opportunity. And now that's just the capex deployment.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  That's not the revenue and the margins downstream. So like the the overall value of all of that stuff behind that first billion dollars is enormous. And so as I've talked to utilities, you know, I've very much been an advocate of you should be putting more stringent requirements on companies that are requesting power, whether it's a hyperscaler or a developer like my company, Cloverleaf Infrastructure, or the two guys in a truck. If you're saying you're going to build a gigawatt data center or you're you're holding on to a gigawatt of power in a queue position, at some point, you need to be able to point to billions of dollars of capital that you have access to to build out that infrastructure.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  And if you can't do that, you're probably not a serious player in the space.

• 42:08Shayle Kann?

  All right, Brian, that's all the time we've got now. Fascinating times in this market as ever. I appreciate you helping me make sense of it, and I'm sure we're going to do it again soon because we're going to hear about the five gigawatt data center that's getting developed in Abilene, Texas or whatever.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  Exactly, I'm sure we will. Well, always great to to catch up, Shil. Thanks for having me on.

• 42:29Shayle Kann?

  Brian Janis is the co-founder and chief commercial officer at Cloverleaf Infrastructure. This show is a production of Latitude Media. You can head over to latitudemedia.com for links to today's topics. Latitude is supported by Prelude Ventures. Prelude backs visionaries accelerating climate innovation that will reshape the global economy for the betterment of people and planet. Learn more at preludeventures.com. This episode was produced by Daniel Waldorf. Mixing by Roy Campanella and Sean Marquand. Theme song by Sean Marquand. I'm Shayle Khan, and this is Catalyst.