The Canadians who want out

Most Albertans don't want the province to separate from Canada, according to the polls. So how did a once-fringe movement gain enough momentum to put independence on the ballot (sort of)? With just ten days to go until the Alberta referendum, join award-winning independent journalists Danielle Paradis and Tim Querengesser as they travel across the province, meeting ordinary Albertans and finding out what they think about the prospect of separating from Canada. Who are the separatists? What do they actually want? And what happens to the rest of Canada if they get it? --------------------------------------- We're proud to present the first episode of this five-part investigative series Separation Anxiety: The Alberta Referendum https://pod.link/6811266682, completely AD-FREE. Thanks to Canadian True Crime listeners like you, we've been able to help fund this independent investigation by two Alberta journalists. At a time when local newsrooms are shrinking, grassroots, on-the-ground reporting is more important than ever, especially when an issue that seems provincial could have consequences for the entire country. In this Episode 1: Among the Separatists, you'll hear from people waving flags on a freeway overpass in Edmonton, at an Alberta Day celebration in Mirror, AB and in a Baptist church in Calgary. Episodes 2 and 3 are also available now. Find Separation Anxiety: The Alberta Referendum https://pod.link/6811266682 on your favourite podcast player. Follow Separation Anxiety's substack https://separationanxietypodcast.substack.com/for the latest. Produced with the support of Canadian True Crime. *Additional sources re introduction: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-alberta-separatism-canada-united-states-republican/ https://thewalrus.ca/is-it-treason-to-ask-america-to-help-break-up-canada/ https://globalnews.ca/news/12088176/alberta-separatism-republicans-report? https://globalnews.ca/news/12087080/alberta-first-nations-referendum/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi there. I hope you're well. We're working on the next episode, but in the meantime, a bit of a treat for you. Couple of weeks ago, I told you about a new investigative podcast called Separation Anxiety: The Alberta Referendum, which Canadian True Crime has proudly helped to fund and support. Well, today, I am so excited to share the entire first episode, completely ad-free, for Canadian True Crime listeners. It's important to me to boost this important grassroots journalism about an issue that has implications for all Canadians. And with only 10 days to go until the referendum, the story has only become bigger.

• 0:41Speaker 00

  In the last week, Canadians learned that Alberta separatists had travelled to Washington, DC, looking for US support, floating possible deals involving Alberta's oil and fresh water, according to the Globe and Mail. We also learned that separatists have been getting advice from Republican strategists in the US about how to find more supporters and get them to vote. We learned that First Nations leaders have been organising voter registration drives and rallying support of their own, with a warning that if people don't make their voices heard by voting, others will make the decision for them. And sure, the polls say separatists are not the majority, but low voter turnout in the province I live

• 1:26Speaker 00

  in has resulted in a situation that is not at all optimal. So it's something worth understanding and paying attention to. And also this week, a separatist party won the Quebec provincial election. So this whole separation thing is about much more than provincial politics, and what makes the investigation by award-winning journalists Danielle Parody and Tim Querengesser for Separation Anxiety so interesting. They spent the summer travelling around Alberta, meeting the ordinary, everyday people who want to leave Canada, listening to their frustrations, their hopes, and their reasons for believing independence is the

• 2:06Speaker 00

  answer. But there's also a bigger picture. How did this movement gain so much influence? Who's helping to drive it? And what could all of this mean for the rest of the country? Just want to clarify that this episode is not a replacement for our usual Canadian True Crime episodes. We're sharing it ad-free because we are proud of the independent journalism behind it, and we love for more people to hear what has been uncovered. So here is episode one of Separation Anxiety. It's called Among the Separatists. I hope you find it as interesting as I did, because episodes two and three are available now.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  See the show notes for more information about how to listen and subscribe. Thanks again, and I'll see you soon.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  If you put it in terms of prosperity, Canada is our adversary.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  What it would mean to be an Albertan is the opportunity to have a dream and go after it again.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  If we didn't have to give like $330 billion is the last closest numbers I've read about equalisation payments. I'm sure a lot of that could go back to taxes.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  We have a path. And the path forward is a freedom and independent Alberta.

• 3:26Speaker 04

  I want to talk to those who are on the fence, those who are still not decided, longing for the nostalgia of the Canada that they wish was still alive, the Canada they grew up in.

• 3:42Speaker 05

  This is Separation Anxiety.

• 3:50Speaker 05

  On October 19th, Albertans will find 10 referendum ballots in voting booths. One will ask if the province should hold a binding referendum on whether to leave Canada. I'm Tim Querengesser. I'm an independent journalist who's written about Alberta politics for 15 years.

• 4:05Speaker 06

  I'm Dani Parody, an independent Métis journalist who covers Alberta politics and Indigenous issues. I'm also an assistant professor at McEwan University in Edmonton. Now, Tim, we've always collaborated as journalists. Our brand is to look at Alberta a little bit differently than others.

• 4:23Speaker 05

  We have, and Dani, you've gone on to create award-winning podcasts without me, like The Place That Thaws with APTN.

• 4:30Speaker 06

  But I always come back. Tim, you write about Alberta for The Walrus, The Globe and Mail, and even international magazines and newspapers, but this is new for us.

• 4:40Speaker 05

  To get here, separatists gathered more than 220,000 signatures, supporting the question, "Do you agree that the province of Alberta should cease to be a part of Canada to become an independent state?" A provincial judge quashed the petition because the province had a duty to consult with First Nations, but they didn't. Alberta Premier Daniel Smith then created a new referendum about whether to hold a referendum, but it isn't binding. Smith says a majority vote will trigger a full-fat referendum on separation.

• 5:09Speaker 06

  This is episode one, Among the Separatists.

• 5:15Speaker 06

  Part one, On the Bridge.

• 5:24Speaker 05

  There's a group of about 15 separatists standing on a bridge here, a small one overlooking an Edmonton freeway, waving flags. Looks like it's just Alberta flags. Drivers on the freeway below are, most of them in big trucks, are honking, giving them kind of support, and then a few people have driven by and yelled some, some critical thoughts.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  You can only kick a dog so many times before he's going to bite you back. And I've been kicked.

• 5:56Speaker 05

  That's Scott Russell. I found him on the bridge waving an Alberta flag. Scott's in his 40s and works as a natural gas pipe fitter in Edmonton. That kicking he talked about is people who called him a Nazi a few years ago. He said he spoke out against vaccines and COVID-19 lockdowns on Facebook. Scott told me he's unhappy about many other things, too. Immigrants are a big one. He said they're drowning Canada's healthcare system. But what pushed him to become a separatist?

• 6:24Speaker 03

  What's actually going on underneath is that the rug's being pulled out from under us. All the prosperity's being pulled out from under us. It's costing people like a lot of stress. Well, I can't put a number on it, but every dollar you have to spend in taxes that you don't have, or every time you have to like not do something with your kids, or make hard decisions, like it takes a very massive toll on your health and your kids' health. And then what do they think about the future? And like, just plot this out 10 years down the road. They talk about 3%, 4% inflation. I'm sorry, but like, you look at groceries five years ago, you look now, like $100 of groceries barely gets you like a day's food. When you have three children, like, it's very difficult to afford that

• 7:08Speaker 03

  and still have their recreational activities and clothes and school supplies, right? And play that out 10 years and see what happens.

• 7:17Speaker 07

  So then again, what, what about being independent and disconnected from Canada as an independent state would make that better?

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Well, Alberta, if we didn't have to give like $330 billion is the last closest numbers I've read about equalisation payments, I'm sure a lot of that could go back to a tax cut for the middle class.

• 7:40Speaker 05

  So I checked some facts here. The closest number I could find was $321 billion. That number's from the Fraser Institute, and it calculated Alberta's net contributions to the federal government's Treasury over the past decade.

• 7:54Speaker 06

  So hold on. Did Alberta just give Canada $321 billion?

• 8:00Speaker 05

  The Canada Revenue Agency, everyone's best buddy, collects income taxes for the province and feds. From that pot of money, the feds redistribute money to provinces and territories, and they do it through something called transfer payments. Alberta receives transfer payments yearly, but what happens, though, is Alberta usually doesn't receive what's called equalisation payments. Those payments see Canada redistribute taxes collected from provinces that have a lot to provinces that don't.

• 8:28Speaker 06

  Is that why you hear separatists almost universally say, "We're funding the rest of the country"?

• 8:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. I also talked to Dennis Young on the bridge, and he also talked a lot about money.

• 8:41Speaker 07

  I didn't ask this one directly. I think I should ask more directly. So some have suggested you guys hate Canada, and then some have suggested you love Canada, but just the earlier version. So love or hate? Which, which one?

• 8:54Speaker 01

  If you define Canada, you know, what part do you want to look at? If you put it in terms of prosperity, Canada is our adversary, and they are adversary of every other province except Quebec. You know, Trudeau said Quebec is Canada.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  So according to him, we're sub-Quebecers. And yeah, as far as prosperity, Canada is our adversaries. We would be wealthier without being Canadian.

• 9:22Speaker 07

  Okay, but is there a part of Canada you do like? Is there?

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Oh, I like, like, I've lived across about five, six provinces. And, you know, I was in Newfoundland when they shut down the fisheries and allowed the Spanish to come in and dragnet. Uh, so, I mean, it's just more proof they're doing the same to Alberta by basically scraping our, our oil out and telling us how much we can drill and all that, as they did to Newfoundland. It's, it's by design, it seems. You know, higher taxes, crapier jobs, uh, and it's, it is an attack on our prosperity and they are our adversary. It's just relevant.

• 10:03Speaker 05

  Another thing that often comes up at sovereignty protests is kind of ironic. It's a love for Canada?

• 10:09Speaker 06

  What? They love Canada?

• 10:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. Scott loves what you might call old stock Canada. He explained this by telling me about his recent stroke. He said he ended up in hospital and he said it felt like the nurses and doctors there had to meet cost quotas, like the Canadian system was threadbare and didn't see his life as valuable anymore.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  I mean, I would ask you, what do you consider Canada? Like the country, the land, the people? I love it, but like this federal government and the system? You are darn right that I hate the guys who hate me and who literally want me dead and have said so in so much. And have their healthcare system, the paid professionals have literally asked me, like the one time I've been and needed medical care, oh, do you want to be resuscitated? Or do you want to just die? Like, no, man. I, I'd rather live. The people who are coming after me, I'm coming after them and I'm not afraid to let them know that. And I'm like, I'm sorry to say it, but I think we need God in this country. I'm not sorry to say it actually, but my brother-in-law asked me, are you a Christian nationalist? Yes.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  I believe, like, this country is a nation. Like, where's our nation? Like, where's Alberta's nation? Everyone else gets to have a nation. Everyone else gets to have their heritage. Where's my heritage? Well, it's in Alberta.

• 11:35Speaker 06

  Okay, so we heard a lot there about healthcare, the cost of living, and how Scott doesn't recognize Canada anymore and how religion is mixing in this for him.

• 11:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I think it's interesting to note that the lead organizing group for the current separatist movement is called the Alberta Prosperity Project.

• 11:53Speaker 06

  And we also heard from Dennis what many might already know about Alberta separatists, that they feel Alberta gives more to Canada and especially to Quebec than it gets back.

• 12:04Speaker 05

  Yeah. Quebec is ever-present in Alberta separatism discussions.

• 12:08Speaker 06

  I thought we needed to hear more from separatists. So I went to the Whistlestop Cafe in Mir, Alberta, about an hour and a half drive from Edmonton.

• 12:17Speaker 05

  Isn't that the cafe that was at the heart of the trucker convoys in 2022?

• 12:21Speaker 06

  Yes. Producer Amanda Erickson and I went there for Alberta Day, the province's birthday.

• 12:33Speaker 06

  So Whistlestop Cafe, convenience store slash restaurant. And what are you seeing over there, Amanda? Big trucks with huge Alberta flags on them. There's a little tent where I'm assuming they're selling what looks like, I think, like merch tent, almost?

• 12:53Speaker 06

  I haven't seen this sign before. It says Free Alberta from Overreach or F A F O.

• 13:03Speaker 06

  The event kicked off with Ben Crane, a singer-songwriter from rural Alberta. It was a small event. There were at most 20 people, including volunteers. I want to introduce to Ben Crane. He's going to do a little speech and play some music for all of you folks. So thanks for coming.

• 13:23Speaker 06

  I'm thinking today is a, is a celebration day, not a complaining day. So we all know what the issues are. I also talked to Patty Vold, who works with Chris Scott, the owner of the Whistlestop. She goes on the bus tour. I'll let her explain it. So tell me about this bus. Well, he bought a motorhome and he got it, we got it wrapped and, and we're going all over the province. We leave tomorrow morning at eight o'clock and we're starting out in Ferintash. And I can't tell you where we're headed after that. And tell me what the bus looks like. Well, it, it, it is, it's like the Alberta crest. It's basically wrapped in the Alberta crest and it's absolutely beautiful. Got the, the golden wheat on there?

• 14:05Speaker 06

  The golden wheat and the mountains and the hoodoos and the, yeah, it's just, it's beautiful and it grabs people's attention. They know who we are.

• 14:15Speaker 05

  Just so everyone's clear, a wrap is a vinyl graphic deckle that you wrap onto a vehicle.

• 14:21Speaker 06

  Yeah. And Tim, who is the most hated name in Alberta right now?

• 14:27Speaker 05

  The names Justin or maybe Pierre come to mind, but definitely Trudeau.

• 14:31Speaker 06

  Well, I met a distant relative of theirs in rural Alberta. His name is Benoit Trudeau. So firstly though, is it true that you are like the third cousin of Justin Trudeau?

• 14:43Speaker 03

  No, no, no. It's, uh, we, we meet at the first Trudeau who immigrated in Canada in 1648. So, so when I, when I do my family tree, so that guy was named Etienne Trudeau and he has six boys and five girls and, and Justin's from the older, the eldest boy. I'm from the second one.

• 15:05Speaker 06

  So Benoit has been making the independence barbecue circuit. And then what brought you out here?

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Politics.

• 15:11Speaker 06

  What do you mean? Benoit's written a book about why Alberta should be more like Quebec.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  Albertans needs to, needs to understand what it is to be sovereign. And politically, I believe that Alberta has a very apathetic political atmosphere. I believe sadly that very few Albertans, including the political class, know how to handle the Westminster system in their advantage. I believe that there's a lot of missed opportunity. I believe that they are way too subservient and way too eager to deliver a ship with Ottawa.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  So essentially Alberta should behave like a sovereign country, take back control of the police, money, even insurance, just like Quebec. I've heard that argument a lot from separatist organizers and we'll hear from one of them when we come back.

• 16:11Speaker 05

  Part two, Under the Thumb.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  I'm an Alberta girl. This is where I was born, is all I know, is everything that I love. Northern Alberta, by trade is how I like to say it.

• 16:24Speaker 06

  That's Kathy Flett. She's the co-creator of the Alberta Women for Independence Network.

• 16:30Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 16:31Speaker 06

  She started this group to talk to women about Alberta separating from Canada. She came to our studio while the petition for a referendum to separate was still on. Kathy, why, why do you think that women weren't feeling connected? Like, we, we have a, a very strong female premier. We, we've had a lot of women in politics. Like, what was that gap, do you think?

• 16:50Speaker 02

  The gap for, that we discovered for the women is that we like to fix things, right? So yes, we've had strong women, but in all of those positions, they were trying to fix things, even our current premier, right? With the MOU, trying to fix things, trying to bridge the gap. Our challenge, and challenge accepted, was to help women understand and see we can't fix it. Confederation isn't broken, is working exactly like it's designed. And there's nothing we can do other than remove ourselves from that which isn't working for us. And that was when it clicked for us to get that message across. We can't, we can't fix it.

• 17:31Speaker 06

  Kathy grew up in oil country, Peace River, which is four hours northwest of Edmonton. And growing up in an oil and farming family shaped how she sees the world.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  You heard things, right? You heard family or, or adult friends or whatever talking about things and you always sort of had this curiosity of what was going on. And particularly in the eighties, even as a kid, you didn't know what, but you knew something. Something just didn't feel right. And then in my teen years, I ended up moving in with some family members and they had the Alberta Report and oh my Lanta, did I not get an education off of that, more so than I would have ever gotten in school. And that really began to formulate, it, it sort of filled the gaps in for me. I wasn't necessarily a great student and I certainly didn't really care about politics. But what I was learning in school and what I was seeing in practical terms didn't match.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  And I had no, I had no wisdom, I had no nothing. I was just a kid. I didn't know how to put that together. But reading that Alberta Report helped put that together. It helped sort of bridge that, that information gap that I had. And that's when I thought, oh man, like this is not working for us. I don't know why. I don't really know how to explain it. I just know that it's not working for us. And then I ended up in my, my later teens and early twenties and a mom and flying all over the place with kids and all of that and lost my way on anything, politics, really paying attention and voting, but not organized in any way, shape or form. Landed in McMurray. It's actually where both my boys were born. So again, surrounded by oil, like that's what put shoes on our feet. That's what made sure my babies were fed. Like this is, this is what we worked in.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  And feeling that tension, that how dare you be proud of having so many amazing resources here? And how dare you be proud of how those resources are blessing you? And that didn't feel right to me at all.

• 19:29Speaker 05

  So if people don't know the Alberta Report, there's this mythos about the publication. It was this deeply conservative weekly that was almost like required reading for those who worked or cared about Alberta's resource economy.

• 19:42Speaker 06

  Yes, and it sounds like it was really formative for her identity as an Albertan. So we asked her to define what that meant.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Well, right now, it means you're under the thumb of Ottawa, which isn't great. As our own republic, what it would mean to be an Albertan is the opportunity to be able to have a dream and go after it again without worrying about somebody in Ottawa deciding, no, you can't do that because we said. What it'll mean to be an Albertan is to have the freedom to have a choice of schools or have choice of healthcare without Ottawa saying, well, we're not giving you your money unless you do it our way for those programs. What it will mean is to be able to be on the world stage and proud again.

• 20:30Speaker 06

  Kathy told us that a new Alberta would use its oil wealth to build deals with other countries. It wouldn't be afraid to turn off the taps, so to speak, in order to get what it wants. But when you look at a map of Alberta, Tim, we're landlocked.

• 20:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, and you can imagine Canada having a whole lot less interest in having a pipeline from an independent Alberta running through its territory to get to an ocean.

• 20:55Speaker 06

  That doesn't faze Kathy.

• 20:57Speaker 05

  When I asked you about how you would negotiate or how you would get things done as an independent country, you talked in ways that sound familiar to, let's say, some of the petro-states.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Well, we will be a petro-state. I mean, we've got the third largest oil reserves, so we will be that. But the rest of Canada needs to know that we now have the power to go there if we need to, and we will. We're not worried about it. We're not apologetic about what we have. And we're not apologetic about what we know we can supply the rest of the world with. And so we're not going to be stopped with being able to supply the rest of the world with what we have. Now, that doesn't mean we can't be great neighbors. It doesn't mean that, you know, suddenly EB has a change of heart and says, oh, yeah, you know what? Maybe, maybe a pipeline to the coast isn't a bad idea after all.

• 21:52Speaker 06

  So Kathy's premise is that without the rest of Canada dragging Alberta down, people would pay less tax. And instead of sending that money to Ottawa and Quebec, life would be affordable.

• 22:04Speaker 05

  So where do First Nations fit in this new version of Alberta? Every inch of this province, as you know, is treaty land.

• 22:11Speaker 06

  Well, we talked about that, too. Kathy, you mentioned First Nations. So what's your pitch to a First Nation person if, like, say, they live on a reserve? What would you say to them for why they should join separation?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Why can one up you? What do I say?

• 22:28Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Right? Because they do come out to some of these events or will connect with me in various other ways. As far as I can tell, it's not really working out for them well either. It's been a terrible experiment for what the First Nations have had to deal with. And what has been really interesting is they are coming out and they're signing this petition. So they, they recognize that as well. And it's, it's an excellent opportunity for all of us to be able to have a do-over.

• 22:59Speaker 06

  We conducted this interview during the middle of the petition, but I feel like many of the questions we raised in talking to separatists remain unanswered. But Kathy, she's not worried.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  No, everything's figure-outable. When you, that's my new word. I made that up some, I mean, some months ago. It's all figure-outable.

• 23:33Speaker 05

  Part three, the province on the hill.

• 23:46Speaker 06

  So, Tim, something keeps coming up in conversations we're both having with people: Christian nationalism.

• 23:53Speaker 05

  I hear that phrase a lot when talking about Alberta, but I'm never quite sure what exactly it means. How does it keep coming up in your conversations?

• 24:01Speaker 06

  It's that people are wondering what role Christian nationalism plays in the Alberta independence movement.

• 24:07Speaker 05

  So, did you figure it out?

• 24:09Speaker 06

  I spoke to two people to help me. First, I went to the Fairview Baptist Church in Calgary.

• 24:16Speaker 07

  Which we're going to consider today, which speak about a just society, a society that is marked or known by righteousness.

• 24:27Speaker 06

  Can I just get you to say and fill your name for me?

• 24:30Speaker 05

  My name is Tim Stephens, S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S.

• 24:36Speaker 06

  Where did you study to become a pastor?

• 24:38Speaker 05

  A few different places. So I have my undergraduate degree at Queen's University in Engineering. And then after becoming a Christian, I went to Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, my master's of divinity, and then received my doctorate degree at the Master's Seminary in California.

• 24:56Speaker 06

  So, Tim, the other Tim, the pastor, is from Ontario, just like you. And like all Ontarians, he moved here for opportunity.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  I can see where you're leading with this, the why do so many Ontarians come to Alberta and then join the separatist movement question?

• 25:13Speaker 06

  Yes. Let's hear from Pastor Stephens.

• 25:16Speaker 05

  I was born in the Ottawa area.

• 25:19Speaker 06

  Okay. And when did you make it out to Alberta?

• 25:21Speaker 05

  I've been out in Alberta as soon as I finished university. Came out here working in the oil and gas sector, so 2004, for most of my adult life.

• 25:30Speaker 06

  Actually, you may have heard of him. He was arrested for defying COVID restrictions. In May 2021, that's kind of when, you know, you started making media appearances, let's say. And that was after COVID. Can you tell me about that time?

• 25:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, our church was just humming along and doing what normal churches do, gathering together to worship. I was preaching. But we became convinced very early on during the pandemic that meeting together was important and that it wasn't going to be the, the health risk that everyone was warning about. And so we decided to meet without fanfare. And we were doing that for a long time until different people in the community realized as we started growing. And so complaints eventually led to tickets and court orders and enforcement. And eventually I was in jail for three weeks during that time.

• 26:26Speaker 05

  And I sought to use that as an opportunity just to explain to people why it is what we were doing. I think that was important.

• 26:35Speaker 06

  And he says that time really made things clear for him. What was it like being in prison for three weeks? Where were you?

• 26:42Speaker 05

  Well, I was at the Remand Centre in Calgary. And being in prison for three weeks is, the best way I can describe it to someone who doesn't have that experience, is, is like a major culture shock. You're in a very, very small and confined space. You have little privacy, you know? Even using the toilet, something that you'd think you'd go get privacy, none of that is there. So all of that is shocking to the system.

• 27:06Speaker 06

  Then we got to the reason I was there: Alberta independence. So you, you've had some posts on your website. And one of them was like how Alberta independence matters to the church.

• 27:18Speaker 05

  That's right. No, I think it's important that as the church or people of faith, people who have the word of God, that we're conversant with the topics of today. There is a misconception that the church basically just deals with spiritual issues, matters of faith, the things that are between people's ears, and should stay out of the lane of politics or conversations that are in the public. So in our, in our modern age, they would see the church or the pastor really is out of his lane if he's talking about issues in society today, which I think is more of a radical view. So Tim, other Tim, is originally from Ontario but is now in Alberta and wants to separate?

• 27:59Speaker 06

  Yes, I pointed that out to him and he didn't flinch. But I wanted to know what he's actually asking for because he told me an independent Alberta would have to be built on Christianity. So your, your view of a, of a new independent Alberta then would be based on Christian ideals or Christian?

• 28:18Speaker 05

  I, I think there can be no other way. You know, there's, there's many libertarians who are arguing for Alberta independence. But as far as I, I know, no libertarian ideology has ever formed a country. The values that people in Alberta are longing for are Christian values. And so if, if an independent Alberta is not rooted in the same Christian virtues as what Canada and the US and, and other Western countries formerly christendom, if they're not rooted in those values, then it also won't survive. This is not just a matter of pipelines or economics or, I, I think the root issue is, you know, what's the, what's the heart and soul of our, of our province or our country?

• 28:59Speaker 06

  I needed him to be more direct about his ideas for a Christian nation. Funding a nation on Christian ideals. These days, that's going to read to people like Christian nationalism. So do you identify as a Christian nationalist?

• 29:12Speaker 05

  Well, it depends. That term was coined as a pejorative term. And so I wouldn't take that label from someone who sees that as the boogeyman. But if you were to ask me, you know, are you a proponent of nationalism or globalism? And I would say nationalism. I want it on a local government rather than somebody, you know, in Belgium running my life. So I want a local government. And then for the, for the Christian adjective, well, do I want a Christian nationalism? Do I want a pagan one? Do I want an atheistic one? Do I want a Marxist one? Yeah, I want a Christian one. Danny, I feel like that's a response that's built out of reductions. We're not Marxists. We're not pagans. We're not atheists. We're not globalists. What we are are Christians who believe in a nation.

• 29:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, he was careful about it. He drew a line around the version of Christian nationalism that he doesn't want.

• 29:59Speaker 05

  I do want to live in a Christian nation. If that's what people mean by Christian nationalism, then, then I'm okay with that. But in many people's minds, Christian nationalism is, is almost like, like Iran, where you have these Muslim clerics running the government. Some people with Christian nationalism think, hey, we need, we need a Christian prince who's going to come in and clean house, bring it top-down. I, I don't believe in that. I think any Christian nation will emerge through the success of the Great Commission, making disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, teaching them to obey all that Christ has commanded.

• 30:44Speaker 06

  So Tim Stephens is one pastor, leading one church with a congregation of 400 people in southeast Calgary. I wanted to understand what his version of nation building might mean for everyone else. So I called someone who studies this. Can we just start with you saying and spelling your name, please?

• 31:04Speaker 07

  Sure. Michael Demore, M.I.C.H.A.E.L.D.E.M.O.O.R. My full, proper position title is Associate Professor of Social Philosophy in Politics, History, and Economics. You really don't need to say all that. You can just say teaches politics at the King's University.

• 31:20Speaker 06

  King's is a small Christian university in Edmonton. Demore is a political theorist.

• 31:26Speaker 07

  I study Christian social thought, and I teach that regularly. And so, over the past number of years, I've done some work on Christian nationalism, particularly attempts to make Christian nationalism intellectually respectable, or by folks who try to articulate its theological foundations in a sort of rigorous way. They're never fully successful at it, but that's one of the things I study.

• 31:51Speaker 06

  I have a clip I'm going to play for you.

• 31:53Speaker 05

  Scripturally, we have these different spheres of authority: the family, we have the church, we have the government, there might be others, but those are the essential ones in a society. So going through COVID and getting that solid in my mind helped me, and even understanding the history of both Alberta and our nation, helped me to understand that what we saw during COVID was really an example of where our country has already gone as it's moved more progressive, as it's moved more radically secular.

• 32:26Speaker 07

  What I found remarkable in what he said there is he went from talking about those spheres of authority to talking about where we're going collectively, as a nation, or as a country, or something, right? The power of understanding these different spheres of authority is that you precisely sort of say, well, they have different callings, they have different natures, they have different tasks. And as a result of that, it may or may not matter that much to what extent the government of your country is openly proclaiming Christ, as long as it's doing its job, however you conceive of its job. It's pursuing public justice, it's keeping the public safe, it's creating a safe business environment, whatever

• 33:08Speaker 07

  it is you may consider to be the fundamental task of the state. And so what's remarkable there is he still has a sort of vision that even if you have these different spheres of authority, the concern is about where we are going collectively, and with who we are collectively, and how secular we are getting in a broader sense, or whether we collectively are drifting. And that's, that's different from a lot of those more, if you will, pluralistic understandings of the, these different callings, these different tasks and so on, given to different social bodies. And that's what's remarkable, and that's what sort of crosses into, oh, a sociologist might say, that sounds like Christian nationalism to me.

• 33:50Speaker 05

  So Danny, I think we've established that some in the Alberta independence movement are Christian nationalists. I'm curious, though, why that matters. Like, does it change anything for the rest of us who are not Christian nationalists?

• 34:02Speaker 06

  I think the best way to answer that is to go back to what you asked earlier. What is Christian nationalism? Let's hear it from Demore.

• 34:10Speaker 07

  Christian nationalism, at its broadest, most sweeping use, as becoming more and more common, is just the way in which people who aren't part of that tradition identify conservative Christians as they orient themselves towards politics. In the 80s, we called them the religious right. In the Bush II era, people called them theocons. Now, we call them Christian nationalists.

• 34:35Speaker 06

  Demore is careful with the term. He worries it's getting stretched to mean any conservative Christian who votes. And he points out that Christian nationalism is not new in Canada.

• 34:46Speaker 07

  Why did the Canadian government, when it decided it had to assimilate Indigenous people, turn residential schools over to churches, primarily to administer and run? Because the understanding was becoming Canadian had to mean becoming Christian. And that was part of becoming a Canadian, and therefore building a Christian nation and keeping it on track.

• 35:15Speaker 05

  So Demore is a Christian who teaches at a Christian university and goes to church. Does he then support a Christian state?

• 35:23Speaker 06

  No, he thinks a Christian state would be a mistake, and there's a theological reason for that.

• 35:29Speaker 07

  I don't mind saying, I'm a Christian, but I'm not a Christian nationalist. I think it's, it's a profound theological error to think that, that a state itself ought to be Christian and show any partiality for Christians. The state's task, as understood in my theological tradition, is to do public justice. In other words, to create the conditions under which all of its citizens can thrive, can exist freely, to create and maintain public services and infrastructure, and that, crucially, are there to protect the vulnerable. So the Old Testament repeatedly has this framing, the widow, the orphan, and the stranger, right? And it's precisely that concern that is present throughout the Old

• 36:11Speaker 07

  Testament, and therefore carried into the New Testament even more radically.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  So then I asked him the question that's on many people's minds. Is Alberta separatism a Christian movement?

• 36:23Speaker 07

  My inclination is to say that that's not what's driving the boat. There's a lot of Alberta separatists who are Christians. There's an important part of the separatist coalition, any movement of any size is always a coalition, between people doing it for different reasons and with different aims. And some of that separatist coalition is doing it because they're Christians, right? Like, that's their primary motivation. But overall, my diagnosis, and I've kind of alluded to this for a while now, is that separatism is fundamentally driven by frustrated partisanship.

• 36:54Speaker 05

  What does he mean by that?

• 36:55Speaker 06

  He means people who win politically in Alberta and lose in Ottawa over and over, until leaving the country starts to sound reasonable.

• 37:03Speaker 07

  This is a little bit, a little bit too simplistic, but I think it's generally true. If the Conservatives had formed a government federally after the election of 2021, we would not have a separatist movement that has anything like, we wouldn't be making a podcast about separatism right now.

• 37:19Speaker 05

  There's a lot to digest there about Christian nationalism, but also just straight-up nationalism.

• 37:24Speaker 06

  What do you mean?

• 37:25Speaker 05

  Well, I think the part I'm struggling to understand is the nationhood part here. How does feeling your prosperity is being restricted, or values are changing, or that there should be more Christianity in our day-to-day lives? Like, how has that coalesced to seeing a quarter of Albertans believe that we are a nation? I suppose I get that political means always seem to fail. Alberta votes conservative, the rest of Canada leans liberal. But still, can a nation be created from grievance?

• 37:51Speaker 06

  I mean, unity built on grievance hasn't worked for the political parties of Alberta, who fight and separate from themselves every 10 years or so.

• 38:02Speaker 06

  Join us for the next episode, where we talk to someone who literally wrote the book on separation.

• 38:09Speaker 05

  Separation Anxiety is produced by Daniel Perdy, Kristy Lee, and me, Tim Querengesser.

• 38:15Speaker 06

  Journalistic and production help by Amanda Erickson. Studio recording and sound production by Omar Mualam and Zach Defoe with Hack Story Studios.

• 38:23Speaker 05

  Separation Anxiety is produced with the support of the Canadian True Crime Network. We release episodes weekly. Make sure to like, follow, and subscribe.

• 38:32Speaker 06

  And follow us on our Substack, separationanxietypodcast.substack.com.

• 38:38Speaker 05

  If you have any feedback, send it our way at [email protected]. See you next week.