Robert Pickton: The Final Chapter [5]

Part 5 - The Final Episode. *Thanks for your patience - it's a long one CONTENT WARNING: Graphic and disturbing details. WATCH: Robert “Willie” Pickton — Prolific serial killer’s jailhouse confession to undercover cop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXPH6yzPOsg- The Mob Reporter, YouTube READ/LISTEN: On The Farm https://www.amazon.ca/Farm-William-Pickton-Vancouvers-Missing-ebook/dp/B003ZDO2GW by Stevie Cameron WHAT TO LISTEN TO NEXT: The Shedden Massacre https://pod.link/1197095887/episode/NjdmM2RiNTJmMjBkZmRiMjliMDM5ZjFh- our three part series The Trail Went Cold https://www.trailwentcold.com/ The Canadian Gothic https://thecanadiangothic.com/ Crisis referral services: Free National Indian Residential School Crisis Line https://www.irsss.ca/irsss-services: call 1-866-925-4419 toll free Hope for Wellness https://www.hopeforwellness.ca/ free chatline - 1-800-721-0066 or using the chat box on the website Government of Canada Crisis and Mental Health support https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/mental-health-services/mental-health-get-help.html Resources for Sexual assault survivors https://www.beyondtheverdict.ca/resources-for-suvivors Canadian True Crime donates monthly to those facing injustice. Proceeds from this series are being donated to the WISH Drop-in Centre Society, https://wish-vancouver.net/ supporting street-based sex workers on Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside since 1984. Full list of resources, information sources, and more: www.canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes https://www.canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:51Speaker 01

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• 1:24Speaker 02

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• 1:43Speaker 03

  An additional content warning: graphic and disturbing details.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  This is the final chapter of Robert Pickton. Where we left off, it was early February of 2002, and the police raided the Pickton farm based on a search warrant for illegal weapons. Instead, they found evidence linking him to multiple missing women. Pickton was arrested and released on bail the following day, while police sealed off the farm and returned with a new search warrant. Inside Robert Pickton's mobile trailer home, investigators found a disturbing amount of evidence scattered throughout, belonging to multiple missing women, along with blood and hair.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  They also found multiple inhalers prescribed to Serena Abbottsway, who'd been missing for months. The 29-year-old had picked those inhalers up from the pharmacy only a few days before she was last seen alive. Investigators shifted their focus to an old, rundown motorhome Pickton had lived in for a time. Inside, they found heavy blood staining on a mattress and blood spatter throughout the motorhome, signs that someone had been badly injured and dragged out. So far, they'd found no actual remains, but there was no way one person could have survived that level of blood loss.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  Multiple samples from the motorhome were rushed for DNA testing in comparison to samples from the missing women.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  As the search continued, investigators were preparing for the inevitable second arrest of Robert Pickton. This time, it had to count. Any contact with him needed to be carefully planned and handled by the right people. Police decided a female officer would approach him and try to build a rapport. Constable Donna Lilies, the only woman on the team. She'd recently spoken with Robert's sister Linda, who described him as deeply submissive to their younger brother. David even told him what time to go to bed. On February 16, 2002, 11 days after the police raided the farm,

• 4:21Speaker 03

  the officer showed up to David Pickton's current demolition work site, where Robert had been working while out on bail. Dressed in plain clothes, she approached him and told him she was there to serve him a summons on his firearms charges, the official reason for the visit. She began asking him questions about how he was dealing with all the media attention, giving him the impression she was a sympathetic outsider who might get in trouble for talking to him. He quickly slipped into his familiar narrative, portraying himself as a persecuted, poor farm boy. He compared himself to Princess Diana being hounded by the media,

• 5:04Speaker 03

  as reported in On The Farm by Stevie Cameron. At times, he broke down in tears, his chin quivering. The officer listened and nodded along sympathetically as Robert Pickton rambled through the same stories he'd repeated for years. His weird and abusive childhood, the slaughtering of his pet calf, his road trip across the United States to meet one of his pen pals, and his failed engagement. The deaths of his parents. He called his younger brother David a greedy asshole. He denied having anything to do with the missing women. He did pick up sex workers, but he was helping them and asked for nothing in return.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  He also mentioned helping Gina Houston. If he was killing them all, why was she and others he'd been helping still alive?

• 6:00Speaker 03

  Speaking of Gina, she would later testify about a conversation she had with Robert Pickton four days later in her car. It was February 20, 2002, and the farm was now swarming with police. Gina would testify her pal Willie was distraught and crying about being under investigation and connection to the missing women. He told her suicide was his only option now because he did not want to go to jail. Then, he suggested they both kill themselves by the end of the week. Gina also reminded Willie of a phone call they had three months earlier, when she heard

• 6:42Speaker 03

  voices, the sound of a struggle, and him saying, “Stop that,” before the line went dead. She asked if someone had been hurt. Willie indicated yes. He said he’d tried to do everything he could for her, but she did not make it. Gina asked if by “she” he meant Mona. She didn’t mention a surname, but Mona Wilson had only just disappeared at that time. Willie said yes, he did mean Mona, and she was now buried in the pigery with several other bodies, but he denied killing Mona or any of the women.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Gina Houston would testify he blamed Dinah Taylor, claiming she was responsible for several of the deaths and that she would take responsibility for them. Dinah Taylor had already been arrested and questioned aggressively. She was uncooperative and would not buckle. She was released hours later without charge, but was under intermittent surveillance. At around this time, the first forensic results came back from the lab. The multiple samples of blood taken from Robert Pickton’s old motorhome was matched to one missing woman.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  It was the blood of 26-year-old Mona Wilson, the last of the women to disappear. Mona’s blood was everywhere, in more than 75 locations in that motorhome, on clothing, pieces of paper, three blankets, a running shoe, a space heater, window blinds, and alcohol bottles. Mona's DNA was also on that dildo attached to the 22 caliber revolver found in Robert Pickton's mobile trailer, along with his DNA.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  But there was DNA from another woman in that old motorhome as well. Thirty-four-year-old Diane Rock had disappeared a month before Mona Wilson, and her DNA was found in several areas, and her hairs on a blanket. Diane's handbag was found discarded in debris outside the old pigery. Inside it, investigators discovered a fluid-filled condom containing Robert Pickton's DNA. In a loft above the farm's mechanical workshop, they found a white purse belonging to 28-year-old Sarah DeVries, who'd been missing for four years by this point.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  It still held her lipsticks, along with another used condom containing Pickton's DNA. Nearby, a set of keys carried the DNA of Brenda Wolf. Outside the slaughterhouse, investigators would find four more condoms tied together in a knot, each containing Robert Pickton's semen. Perhaps a way of preserving something as a kind of trophy, or maybe it was just more of the filthy squalor that defined the daily life of a very dirty man. So far, investigators had not recovered a full body,

• 10:02Speaker 03

  but what they were uncovering told its own story, and the search was far from over.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  The police now had the authority to arrest Robert Pickton and charge him with two counts of first-degree murder for Mona Wilson and Serena Abbotsway. By the end, he would be charged with the first-degree murder of 27 women.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  On February twenty-two of two thousand two, officers in plain clothes drove to the demolition work site, where they found Robert Pickton sitting in a flatbed truck. He was told he was under arrest. He said nothing. He was advised he'd been charged with two murders and was under investigation in connection with dozens of other women and put in the back of a police cruiser. He appeared stunned. He protested it wasn't true. For the rest of the drive, he spoke very little. As Robert Pickton was formally booked and charged, it was noted that he was absolutely filthy and his breath was said to be foul.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  His hands were so dirty, they were almost completely black on the palms and fingers. His fingernails were caked in black grime. He was told to have a shower and change into jail clothing. He refused the shower. He was taken to his cell.

• 11:36Speaker 03

  As he walked in, his cellmate immediately began protesting that he didn't want to share a cell and demanding to see his lawyer. Robert urinated, did not wash his hands, and then lay down on his bench. He asked the other man what he'd been charged with. His cellmate was of course an undercover officer, a cell plant. The cell was being surveilled and there was another officer just down the hallway. And it was good that Robert started the conversation because the cell plant can't guide it or interview the suspect. It has to be a natural conversation.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  It was also clear that Robert just wanted to talk about himself. He called himself a plain old pig farmer who was being charged for fifty murders. The cell plant said he didn't believe it, that Robert was bullshitting him. But then, he realised this was the man from the TV. Robert Pickton sarcastically referred to himself as a legend. He reiterated he was just a farm guy and launched into all the same stories of his life on the farm. Then, he was taken out for police questioning.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  The interrogation team was ready and waiting. Task force members, psychologists, profilers, as well as other officers involved in the case so far. Three skilled investigators would have a go at trying to crack Robert Pickton. The first, Sergeant Bill Forty, began by trying to establish a rapport with Robert, discussing his childhood, his short-lived engagement to Connie, whether he drank or did drugs. Only a few very brief video clips of Robert Pickton's police interview were later released, and the audio is not great, but here's a few clips.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  Do you drink? Oh, no, no, I don't drink, I don't smoke. I don't use drugs. And everybody says, how can you have this little room full of shot?

• 13:40Speaker 03

  That last part is unintelligible. They also discussed the 1997 knife attack with Wendy, and Robert continued to insist he was the victim.

• 13:53Speaker 04

  I turned around, I didn't take the knife away from her. I did not take the knife away from her. I aimed it towards her and the knife hit twice. I did do that. I admit I did that. That's one thing I didn't, shouldn't have done.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  He was asked if he ever hired sex workers.

• 14:10Speaker 04

  Not since this incident, no.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  What about after the incident?

• 14:15Speaker 04

  Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  They talked about how he butchers animals on the farm. Robert yawned a lot. He was shown a poster with the headshots of 48 missing women and was asked if he recognized any of them. He's vague, saying he doesn't know. There's so many people coming in and out of his place.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  I don't know, but so many people coming in and out of my place, I don't know.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Robert speculated that some of them may have been at his place to party, but he didn't know any of them well and certainly had not had sex with any of them. The investigator pointed to each woman, one by one, and he denied they were ever at his place. He commented that many of them were pretty. They talked about the media, and Robert seemed shocked, yet almost delighted that he was in the paper and his picture was on the front page. They spoke about Dinah Taylor, and he said he'd been with her for seven or eight years, calling her a nice person, but insisting he had never had sex with her.

• 15:26Speaker 03

  He was asked about Serena Abbott's Way's inhaler. Robert asked, "Serena? Who's that?" He was asked why her inhaler was found in his mobile trailer home and her DNA all over the place if she hadn't actually been there. Robert said, "That's impossible." The conversation turned to the revolver found in the laundry with the dildo attached to it. Robert explained that the little plastic thing was to make the firearm quiet. The investigator asked him, "How did Mona Wilson's DNA get on that dildo, along with your own DNA?" Robert played dumb and suggested there must have been a setup.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  This continued for hours. Police had stacked a bunch of boxes in the interview room with labels like "DNA evidence", "Toxicology report", "Informant", and "Surveillance". They were all fake, it was intended to spook him. Constable Dana Lillies came in as a friendlier face. Same result, he just said he didn't know what happened, how the DNA got there, and proclaimed his innocence. Finally, after even more hours, Staff Sergeant Don Adam came in to give it all they had.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Robert was told that his brother David was cooperating with the police and had told them that it was over for Willie, and that he knew there were bodies. The investigator also told Robert that his brother blamed Dinah Taylor for some of the killings, and that Willie helped dispose of the bodies. He was then informed that his brother was preparing to give them all the information he had. None of that was true. It was a classic read investigative technique, designed to make Robert believe that others had turned on him in the hope he would give up information. In Canada, police are legally allowed to lie during interrogations.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  It didn't work. So they moved on to Dinah Taylor, telling Robert she had fled but officers had tracked her down back to Thunder Bay, Ontario and spoken with her family. They had convinced her to cooperate with police. She'd already given them information and was preparing to give them more. This wasn't true either. Dinah had refused to speak to the police and they were still surveilling her. Investigators then shifted to a new angle, telling him that Lynne Ellingson was negotiating to give him up about seeing him stringing up a woman in the slaughterhouse. Robert flatly denied this.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  He did confirm that Lynne Ellingson was blackmailing him, though. Robert was told that the police expected to find bodies and now was the time to speak up. For the first time, he cracked slightly. He did not confess, but he shifted the focus away from himself, saying that before he could say anything, he needed to talk to Dinah Taylor. After hours of denial, Robert Pickton finally made his first admission. Quote, "There are bodies." He said it was way over, that too many people were involved and that he had made his own grave.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  But when investigators pressed him on the numbers, how many bodies, he said he didn't know. The investigator probed, was it 10, 20, 30? Robert accused the police of, quote, "Making me more of a mass killer than I am."

• 19:22Speaker 03

  He insisted that he was not the only one involved, although his brother had nothing to do with it. When attention turned to Dinah Taylor, Robert admitted he had told others that she was responsible for some of the killings, but he refused to tell investigators whether it was true. When asked to explain whether Dinah acted with him to kill some women together, or if she killed some of them without him, Robert responded with no comment. Again and again, he insisted he would not speak until he'd talked to Dinah Taylor first, and that he would take the fall for everything if it came to that.

• 20:02Speaker 03

  He kept saying he'd been nailed to the cross, yet remained extremely vague on any actual details. By this point, Robert had been in the interview room for more than 11 hours. He hadn't eaten anything, and hadn't even left to use the washroom yet. He was offered the opportunity, but refused. At one point, the investigator asked him if he was hungry. "Do you want a pork sandwich?" He shook his head. "I don't deserve to eat." As the interview went on, Robert Pickton described himself as the head honcho, the

• 20:42Speaker 03

  head guy, and repeatedly hinted that others would eventually be caught, that a lot of people were going to come down. But each time investigators pressed for details, he clammed up. He said, quote, "There will be other murderers or whatever, other people charged, but that's here, not there." The investigator asked him, "Men or women?", and he said, "A man." The following questions were answered with no comment. All Robert would say was that that man was not his brother David. In fact, his language softened when he spoke about his brother.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  He said they'd shared a good life together for 50 years, he loved David, and they were very close. When investigators raised the idea that David had bossed him around, Robert said, "Yeah, that's good, I like that." Whatever happened, he insisted, it had nothing to do with his brother.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  The investigator tried turning to the question of why he killed. Robert Pickton blamed the police for taking so long to catch him, that's why. He rejected the suggestion that it had anything to do with fantasies, desire, gratification, or collecting trophies. He acknowledged that he'd thought about stopping. The investigator asked: "Would I be right in saying, Willie, that you had reached the stage where you just no longer really viewed these girls as being worth anything?" He replied: "Mm-hmm."

• 22:21Speaker 03

  That's the same affirmative response he gave when he was asked if he loved his younger brother. He added that he had one more planned and then he was going to shut it down, that's why he was so sloppy, that was the end of it. An odd response, given the plethora of evidence he must have known was on the farm. But then again, many of the missing women had disappeared without a trace.

• 22:54Speaker 03

  Slowly, Robert Pickton began to offer fragments that sounded like very narrow admissions. When asked how many women he had killed, he gave a vague estimate, saying two, maybe three, but he immediately tried to walk it back. He refused to acknowledge anything about Serena Abbott's way. He was pushed on Mona Wilson, that it was her blood on the mattress. Robert again said that affirmative "Mm-hmm." But once again, he refused to give details.

• 23:28Speaker 03

  When the investigator told him he'd done a poor job cleaning up inside the trailer, he laughed about it and agreed. He said he was sloppy and careless. "How did David not see that?" Robert replied: "Because he's too busy."

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Each time the investigator pressed for specifics about any of the other women, Robert told them repeatedly he couldn't say anything without speaking to Dinah Taylor first. Then, almost casually, he threw out a final line: "If police wanted to dig up the property, they were welcome to it." After 12 hours, the interview was over for the day. It was now 10pm. Investigator Don Adams would later testify that he felt Robert Pickton was toying with him during that interrogation, that he was deliberately playing head games with the police.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Robert Pickton thought his interrogation was over. He had no idea it would be continuing in a different form. The undercover cop playing his cellmate was waiting for him to talk all about it.

• 24:47Speaker 03

  Later on, a small selection of video from this conversation would be released publicly, but it's not very good quality and a lot of Pickton's side of the conversation is in mumbles and whispers. It is available on YouTube via the Mob Reporter YouTube channel. There's a link in the show notes to watch it with subtitles. I've got my fellow OG podcasters to voice the key parts. Robin Water from The Trail Went Cold is voicing Robert Pickton.

• 25:18Speaker 05

  Got me. They got me on this one.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Anne Jordan Bonaparte from The Canadian Gothic is voicing the undercover cop.

• 25:24Speaker 06

  No, no shit. What have they got?

• 25:26Speaker 03

  And in certain parts, you'll hear clips from the real conversation as well. Please note, this conversation has been edited for clarity, brevity, and excessively gratuitous swearing.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  I, I fucking buried myself now.

• 25:43Speaker 06

  Hey?

• 25:44Speaker 05

  I buried myself.

• 25:45Speaker 06

  How?

• 25:46Speaker 05

  Got me. They got me on this one.

• 25:47Speaker 06

  No, no shit. What have they got?

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Fuck, all there's old carcasses.

• 25:51Speaker 07

  Fuck, what have you got? No. No, carcasses.

• 25:57Speaker 06

  What have you got? You know what I'm saying?

• 25:59Speaker 05

  DNA.

• 26:00Speaker 07

  So what have you got? Now I'm saying DNA. Fuck.

• 26:04Speaker 06

  Fuck.

• 26:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:06Speaker 06

  Come on, buddy. Fuck, that's nothing. You got a fucking missing person, it's hard to collect DNA.

• 26:10Speaker 05

  They've got DNA.

• 26:12Speaker 07

  You got a fucking missing person. Are you aware of the fact that they need it? They need me.

• 26:19Speaker 06

  Guy does it right. I find the best ways to dispose of something is take it to the ocean.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  The cell plant is building on Robert Pickton's comment about DNA with a classic elicitation technique. Casually mention something close enough to the truth, then wait for the suspect's ego to step in and correct it.

• 26:41Speaker 06

  Dispose of something is take it to the ocean.

• 26:43Speaker 05

  Oh, really?

• 26:43Speaker 06

  Do you know what the ocean does to things? There ain't much left.

• 26:47Speaker 05

  I did better than that.

• 26:48Speaker 07

  They heard that. It's who?

• 26:51Speaker 05

  Who? Me.

• 26:52Speaker 06

  No.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  Robert moves over to sit right next to the cell plant, bowing his head as he whispers. The cell plant asks him to repeat what he says.

• 27:05Speaker 05

  A rendering plant.

• 27:06Speaker 07

  A rendering plant. A rendering plant.

• 27:12Speaker 06

  No shit. That's gotta be pretty good, eh?

• 27:15Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:16Speaker 06

  Can't be much left.

• 27:17Speaker 05

  Oh, no, only, uh, I was kinda sloppy at the end too. Getting too sloppy.

• 27:21Speaker 06

  Really?

• 27:22Speaker 07

  Can't be much sloppy left.

• 27:27Speaker 07

  Oh man, I feel sloppy.

• 27:31Speaker 07

  Getting too sloppy.

• 27:32Speaker 06

  Really?

• 27:33Speaker 05

  Oh, fuck, getting too sloppy.

• 27:42Speaker 05

  They wanna dig, they are. They're gonna dig for a year. That's unbelievable. Let them dig. That's right. I told them already, dig. Have fun. No shit, have fun, play in the dirt. Teeth, we're gonna find fingernails, bones, yes, so yes it is. You said good luck. I don't believe this, I'm so fucking stupid. Like sloppy. Mister sloppy, sloppy at the end.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Robert Pickton holds up four fingers.

• 28:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, four? Four I was sloppy with, I just couldn't finish it off, so I cleaned it up and that's it. So I let everything die for a while. Yeah. Then, then do, do another twenty-five new ones.

• 28:24Speaker 03

  In another part of the conversation, Robert Pickton says that if he hadn't been caught, he would have done more and his count would have been more than quote, "the ones in the States." He adds that the Green River Killer's record was about forty-two. That's Gary Ridgway, who targeted sex workers in the Seattle area. It's interesting that Pickton brought him up. The cell plant tells him it looks like he's got the record. Pickton says his number is still growing.

• 28:57Speaker 05

  You know, I can, I can make things disappear. I was gonna do one more, make it an even fifty.

• 29:09Speaker 05

  Make the big five-oh. Make the big five-zero, five-zero, half a hundred. Mm-hmm. Everybody says, "How many of those?" Wouldn't tell them, talk about half, about one quarter, talking about all of them, I says, "No." You know they got forty-eight on the list? Yeah. You know the list has only got like, only half the people in there? The other half might, but I think most of them, based on that fucking evidence, I think I'm nailed to the cross.

• 29:43Speaker 07

  Well, it's how it happens.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  Robert Pickton is about to say that there'll be about fifteen other people going down. Some will go down the tank. He says, "They were my friends. I thought they were my fucking friends."

• 30:01Speaker 07

  Well, it's how it happens. There were fifty men who were on the gun. Five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. I said they were my friends. I thought they were my friends.

• 30:19Speaker 03

  Fifteen people. But despite his concerns about being sloppy and that he'd buried himself, Pickton also boasts about how he handled the police interrogation.

• 30:33Speaker 05

  So I'll see what's gonna happen tomorrow. Tomorrow's gonna be very interesting. My lawyer says, "Don't say nothing." Perfect. They're gonna say, "You know, you don't understand that? You're not saying what you said yesterday." That's right. They're gonna come back to me and I'm gonna say, "I don't know. I can't remember." Yeah, you're gonna really fuck 'em up tomorrow. You're gonna have some fun. I'm really, I'm really turning their minds around today. I really had them fucking going today.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  It suggests his bumbling pig farmer persona was just that, a mask, something he performed when he needed to, and he believed it had fooled the police.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  At around midnight, the cell plant was told his lawyer was on the phone. Robert started masturbating on his bunk. His cellmate never came back. The undercover operation was over.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  It's right about this time that Robert Pickton's former house guest Lynn Ellingson was working up the courage to finally speak to the police about what she'd seen in the slaughterhouse that night three years earlier.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Proceeds from this series are being donated to the Wish-Drop-In Centre Society, supporting street-based sex workers on Vancouver's downtown east side since 1984.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Soft, cushy, plush, cosy. Soft, smooth, buttery, marshmallow-y, warm, soft. Socks, underwear, tees and more. Bombas. Everyday comfort worth obsessing over. Visit bombas.com/audio and use code AUDIO for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash AUDIO. One purchase equals one donated, always.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids, to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  That's G-A-B-B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  In the days after Robert Pickton's arrest, his former friend Lynne Ellingson gave a full police statement. She'd stopped using drugs and was thinking more clearly. It still took some coaxing because she was terrified that he would be released on bail and would make good on his threats. The police took her out to the farm to point out various locations and give more details, which gave her statement further credibility.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Investigators re-interviewed Scott Chubb, who confirmed what Willie Pickton told him about killing someone with a syringe containing windshield washer fluid. As a sidebar, a forensic toxicologist would later testify that one syringe of methanol, which is consistent with windshield washer fluid, would not be enough to kill someone. It would take about 150 to 375 times that amount. Scott Chubb also told police that while Willie's temperament was usually quiet, he snapped when he got angry and it sometimes ended in violence.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  He recalled the two brothers having an argument once, and Willie suddenly punched David in the nose. He would later testify that shortly after Willie was arrested, David phoned him and threatened him if Willie goes down. Scott Chubb mentioned the Howells Angels and repeatedly requested witness protection for himself and his family. He was one of many key witnesses who were struggling with poverty and substance use. Police would provide financial support, relocation and treatment to ensure they could testify. Several would also apply for the $100,000 reward,

• 35:38Speaker 03

  which was ultimately split among six anonymous tipsters. Robert Pickton's defence team would argue that these witnesses were all desperate for money, which drove them to exaggerate or fabricate their stories. The only one who confirmed he was one of those tipsters was Bill Hiscox, the former employee of David Pickton's demolition business, who rang the alarm four years earlier with some disturbing anecdotes from the farm. He notified both the Vancouver PD tip line and the local RCMP that Willie Pickton regularly picked up sex workers and talked openly about disposing of their bodies in the piggery and in his meat grinder.

• 36:24Speaker 03

  Bill Hiscox also relayed information about bloody clothing and identification belonging to multiple women. He was one of the earliest people to notify police about what he'd seen and heard. And while Detective Constable Laura Machenna had interviewed him at the time and believed he was credible, the higher-ups dismissed his information as hearsay and not enough for a search warrant. More than a dozen more women were murdered after those warnings were ignored. Then, there was Andrew Bellwood, the man who had lived in Pickton's trailer for a short time before he was assaulted, falsely accused of stealing tools and chased off the farm.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  He'd been too terrified to report anything to the police at the time, but Andrew Bellwood would testify that Willie Pickton told him he lured sex workers to the farm with drugs and money, and demonstrated exactly how he restrained and strangled them. He described taking their bodies to the barn to butcher and gut them, and then feed them to the pigs. And what the pigs didn't eat was taken to West Coast Reduction, no one the wiser.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  Back at the farm, the search moved to the workshop building. One of the investigators opened up a freezer and saw two white plastic buckets inside each other, lying on their sides. One had the word "clout" labelled on it. The investigator looked inside the inner bucket and was horrified at what he thought he saw. Inside was a human head that had been cut in half vertically. There were also two hands and two feet. They were the frozen remains of 23-year-old Andrea Josbury, who vanished about 10 months beforehand.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  This was the first actual human remains found on the farm, and that was just the inner bucket. The outer bucket it was tucked into contained identical frozen remains, a head cut in half vertically, accompanied by hands and feet. These belonged to 29-year-old Serena Abbottsway, whose inhalers had been found in Robert Pickton's mobile trailer.

• 38:54Speaker 03

  Serena's DNA was also in the other bucket with Andrea Josbury's remains. And in that same freezer was DNA belonging to at least seven other women, including Heather Bottomley, Diana Melnick, Tanya Marlowe Holick, Stephanie Lane, Sheri Irving and Cara Alice, all in their early to mid twenties, as well as Diane Rock, who was thirty-four.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  Over at the slaughterhouse, investigators were appalled by a smell coming from two plastic garbage pails. One of them contained animal remains. The other contained another human head, cut in half vertically, and again accompanied by two feet and hands. These were the remains of Mona Wilson, not frozen and badly decomposed. Mona was the victim of the bloodletting event in Robert Pickton's old motorhome. By this point, it had been about three months since she vanished.

• 40:06Speaker 03

  The discovery of these three human heads and the way they'd been cut in half vertically immediately reminded forensics experts of something found seven years earlier in the city of Mission, about thirty minutes' drive east of Port Coquitlam. In 1995, a woodworker had spotted something on the ground between a creek and the Trans-Canada Highway. At first, he thought it was an indigenous artefact, but when he got closer, he realised it was a partial skull. A number of forensic specialists were consulted at the time

• 40:46Speaker 03

  and determined that the half skull belonged to a Caucasian woman aged between twenty and forty. She was missing teeth in her upper right jaw, and she might have worn dentures. She had been killed some time in the previous ten years. Her DNA was submitted to every laboratory in Canada, and composite drawings were shared with Interpol in all known missing persons databases, but nothing matched the description.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  The RCMP believed it was possible that her family either didn't know that she was missing, or might have been under the mistaken belief that she'd already been reported missing when she hadn't been. She was given the name Mission Jane Doe, and her skull was placed in storage and forgotten. The discovery made no sense to police at the time, but seven years later, during the search of the Pickton Farm, that changed. A forensic examination of the skulls of Serena Abbotzway, Andrea Josbury, and Mona Wilson, revealed they'd been bisected, or cut in half vertically with a reciprocating saw,

• 42:01Speaker 03

  and they each had a gunshot wound to the head that came from a 22 caliber firearm. There was no evidence of a gunshot on Mission Jane Doe's skull, but it was only a partial skull. All four skulls bore the same distinctive cuts, and had been dissected the exact same way, using the same reciprocating saw.

• 42:32Speaker 03

  There were multiple freezers located in several buildings on the farm. Investigators digging around in a different freezer came across a number of packages of ground pork. Given the frozen human remains already found, this discovery came with some alarming implications. The packages of ground pork were sent away for DNA testing. Nine packages contained ground human tissue, belonging to two women who disappeared more than four years beforehand. Forty-three-year-old Cindy Phalix, and forty-seven-year-old Inga Monique Hall. Their DNA was also found on plastic sheet liners in that freezer.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  This was a potential public health risk, but for some reason it wasn't announced until more than eighteen months after these results were known. BC's provincial health officer would issue a public advisory asking anyone who might still have frozen pork from the pig farm to turn it over to police, citing the conditions discovered at the site. The public advisory stressed there was no evidence of disease transmission and reassured the public that the risk was extremely low, especially if the meat was not consumed raw. The advisory was carefully worded, focusing on food safety without disclosing the full

• 44:06Speaker 03

  reason the alarm had been raised. But many people put two and two together because a police source had already leaked information to the press that body parts had been discovered in freezers on the farm. Authorities reassured the public that the meat in question had not been sold commercially and was only shared privately with Robert Pickton's friends and acquaintances. But an associate who helped him with the packaging and sales of the ground pork publicly accused the RCMP of playing that aspect down. He said he knew that the meat had been routinely sold to local butcher shops nearby.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  This ground meat discovery was yet another real-life horror connected to this case.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  Back at the farm search, investigators turned to the ruins of what was once the old pigery. At the far end of the ruins was an old cistern, a tank used to collect liquid waste. There was a strong stench coming from it. While sifting through the manure, an investigator felt something solid. It was part of a human lower jaw that had been cut with a saw. There were five teeth still attached, and one tooth had a distinctive dental filling.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  Dental records would identify the jaw as belonging to 31-year-old Brenda Wolf, who'd been missing for more than three years by this point. Brenda's DNA had also been found on a number of items inside Robert Pickton's mobile trailer.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  There was something else among the waste in the old cistern. A small human bone with a distinctive shape, like it had been whittled or carved by human hands. It turned out to be a partial leg bone belonging to 43-year-old Wendy Crawford, who'd been missing for more than two years.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  The discoveries so far were scattered across several different buildings and in ruins on the farm. It was widespread, and investigators now face the reality that the entire property might hold evidence and answers. Not just the buildings, but all 14 acres of land, much of it buried under decades of junk, machinery, and debris. The farm was stripped down, cleared, sectioned off in a grid, and systematically excavated, square by square, with every load of soil screened for evidence. Specialized teams, heavy equipment, and renowned forensic experts

• 47:00Speaker 03

  were brought in to process the sheer volume of material.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  After more of the structure around the pigpen was torn down, officers discovered a series of small bones buried in the ground. They turned out to be 14 hand bones, belonging to 34-year-old Georgina Pappan. By this point, she'd been missing for more than three years. Georgina had been identified as the indigenous woman with long black hair and chipmunk cheeks that Lynne Ellingson said she saw strung up in the slaughterhouse with Robert Pickton that night. Lynne would testify she couldn't remember the exact date that this happened, so it's not a confirmed identification.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  But photos of Georgina Pappan indicate she did indeed have high cheekbones, and this discovery of her hand bones confirmed that she was a victim of Robert Pickton. This was the only evidence of Georgina Pappan left. There was no DNA, other remains, or any other personal possessions found.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  Investigators never did find those three illegal firearms that Scott Chubb told police he saw, but that no longer mattered. They recovered thousands of items believed to belong to women from the downtown east side. With no intact bodies to return, police began meeting with families, laying out recovered belongings and asking them to identify what they could. For many, it was the first confirmation that their loved one had been at the Pickton farm at all. Every available white contamination suit in the country was being used by the searchers. More than 400,000 crime scene photos were taken,

• 48:56Speaker 03

  and some 600,000 exhibits were sent for DNA testing, challenging the entire lab system across Canada. It would take several years to get all the forensic results back. DNA belonging to 26-year-old Jackie Murdock was found on a used condom wrapper. There was another syringe filled with windshield wiper fluid, and the DNA of Tiffany Drew, who was 24. They found 39-year-old Sharon Abraham's fingernail, and DNA belonging to 34-year-old Yvonne Marie Boone in a miscellaneous location. There was also the DNA of 25-year-old Nancy Clark,

• 49:40Speaker 03

  the earliest-known victim who disappeared from Vancouver Island 11 years earlier in 1991, when Robert and David Pickton were working a demolition job there.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  In the slaughterhouse, more DNA was matched to Andrea Josbury, Cara Alice and Patty Johnson.

• 50:05Speaker 03

  The story became a global sensation. Camera crews were sent from all over the world to see the search site for themselves and dig around the downtown east side. They spoke to the families of the victims and the police. The Vancouver Sun dug into land sales records and reported that the Pickton siblings had made some $6.6 million selling various parcels of their land over the years. And the remaining land that the police were now digging up was assessed at more than $4 million at that point. There was some public outrage. The rumours of the Pickton family as greedy, corrupt and morally rotten.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Running a junkyard pig farm tied to biker rumours and now a serial killer. The infamous Piggies Palace and their refusal to follow the rules while also cashing in on millions in land deals. It was all a bit rich. But Robert Pickton's older sister, Linda, the one who went to live with relatives in Vancouver when she was about 13, gave a reluctant interview to Kim Bolan of the Vancouver Sun. She claimed they only made a modest profit from the land sales. She insisted that the land cost a lot to develop before it could be sold, even though most of that work was done by David Pickton's landfill and trucking company.

• 51:35Speaker 03

  She claimed the family was actually financially strained now and there was no money left to pay for her brother Robert's legal defence. Linda Pickton clarified she hadn't shared any holidays or social events with her brother and before his arrest, she only ever saw him at lawyers' offices when they were selling parcels of their land. She said she had not spoken to him or visited him in prison. Linda Pickton expressed sympathy for the victims and their families, but said the search of the farm marked the end of life as she knew it. She described herself as a victim, that it had left the family in disbelief and turmoil,

• 52:17Speaker 03

  struggling to come to terms with the shock and stigma attached to their name.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  According to Stevie Cameron's book On the Farm, Lynda Pickton said the body parts in his freezers alone would convict him. "It's ridiculous to say he's not guilty." She also claimed Robert Pickton was lazy and had never worked a day in his life.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  "Maybe if he'd worked at a real job, he wouldn't have done this. If Rob had any conscience at all, he would plead guilty and get it over with."

• 52:59Speaker 03

  As the digging operation on the farm continued, more missing women were reported. Now, the count was fifty-four. The Robert Pickton case had been declared the biggest in Canadian history. The importance of a thorough search of the farm was never clearer. The searches had grown to include teams of forensic anthropologists and archaeologists to deal with the bones. Because bone pits used for animal disposal were uncovered across the property, it all had to be processed and searched. A group of university students in these and related forensic fields

• 53:38Speaker 03

  were brought in to stand by the conveyor belts and help sort out the debris uncovered by the search. The work was brutal, physically and mentally stressful and exhausting, but critically important. One student saw something unusual on the conveyor belt. It was a partial jawbone with fragmented edges and three teeth that were extremely brittle. The jawbone belonged to twenty-four-year-old Marney Frey, who had disappeared more than five years earlier.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  And nearby were two more human bones, a heel bone and a rib bone. They belonged to Mission Jane Doe, definitively linking her to the Pickton farm.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  The investigation became the largest and most expensive crime scene in Canadian history, costing an estimated forty to fifty million dollars for the search alone. The operation officially ended in November of 2003, more than eighteen months after it began. As the final bone pit was filled in, students who had worked the site held a quiet memorial, placing white roses and name cards for each of the now sixty-one missing women into the pit. A bagpiper played as each name was spoken out. A small but meaningful act of respect at the end of a devastating search.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  By May of 2005, Robert Pickton had been charged with the first-degree murder of twenty-seven women, including Mission Jane Doe.

• 55:29Speaker 03

  In the time leading up to the trial, Robert Pickton wrote to at least one penpal from prison. That penpal, based in California, would later provide the letters to The Vancouver Sun. Of note, Robert Pickton wrote: "I know I was brought into this world to 'change this world of their evil ways. They even want to disregard the Ten Commandments," he complained. He quoted a Bible verse which says: "For you can be quite certain that nobody who actually indulges in fornication or in purity or promiscuity can inherit anything of the Kingdom of God."

• 56:12Speaker 03

  He referred to himself as "a condemned man of no wrongdoing, just like his father", and bragged about how many millions had been spent on investigation and excavating the farm, and how he's now so important he needs a convoy of protection to and from the court. Robert Pickton insisted he was just the fall guy, and that the police had arrested the wrong man.

• 56:40Speaker 03

  The trial finally began in January of 2007, almost five years since the search of the pig farm began, and it was full of disappointment for many of those on the victim's side. The year beforehand, the Crown had announced it would only proceed to trial based on six of the 27 first-degree murder charges. The decision was described as being “in the interests of justice”, because it would be too costly and expensive and too much of a burden for a jury to hear and consider evidence for. The jury would only hear about evidence related to Serena Abbotzway,

• 57:22Speaker 03

  Mona Wilson, Andrea Josbury, Brenda Wolfe, Georgina Pappan, and Marney Frey. But there was a suggestion that all of the other charges would be prosecuted at a second trial.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  Regardless, this was a major blow to all of the other families. Many of them did not know what had happened to their loved ones or what evidence there was, and would not find out for quite some time. At the same time, the charge in relation to Mission Jane Doe was also dropped, at first. It would be brought up again at the trial, but the judge would end up instructing the jury to forget everything they’d heard about Mission Jane Doe. To this day, she has never been identified.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  The Crown Prosecutions case was that the evidence showed that Robert Pickton had a pattern: he would find vulnerable women on the streets and lure them to his farm. The way he did this was by offering to buy their sexual services at a higher price than they would charge if they stayed on the downtown east side. And he also promised to provide them with drugs once they got to the farm. He would transport them in his vehicle, give them the free drugs, and during the course of sexual activity, he would restrain them with handcuffs or other restraints.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  The Crown argued that once a woman was restrained, Robert Pickton would kill her using the dildo revolver or by some other means, and he would then take her body to the slaughterhouse to disembowel and butcher it. He would dispose of the remains over a period of time, feeding some of those remains to his pigs, delivering some of them to West Coast Reduction, the rendering plant, and freezing other parts for later disposal.

• 59:24Speaker 03

  That brings us to the other suspects and the many public questions about whether Robert Pickton had partners in crime. The police would confirm that some people went from being witnesses to suspects then back to witnesses again, depending on what was learned about them during the investigation. You'll recall that Lynne Ellingson and Dinah Taylor were the first two people arrested before Robert Pickton himself was arrested. The police would clarify that Lynne Ellingson's arrest only happened because they heard from multiple sources that she witnessed Pickton killing on the farm, and she refused to speak with them about it.

• 1:00:08Speaker 03

  But that was all sorted out and she was completely cleared. The court heard there was no DNA evidence from Lynne Ellingson found on the farm. Pickton's defence attacked Lynne's credibility relentlessly, but she never wavered on what she saw.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  Things were slightly different with Dinah Taylor, who did not cooperate with police at any time and did not testify at trial. And there was evidence of her on the farm. Her prints and DNA had been found on duct tape, personal items and documents at the farm. Her hairs were found on a blanket along with Serena Abbot's way's DNA. Dinah Taylor's DNA was also on Mona Wilson's rosary, on Brenda Wolf's lipstick, and on several items found at the nearby property formerly known as Piggy's Palace. But Dinah Taylor was known to stay on the farm and was also known to help Robert Pickton procure women from the downtown east side.

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  So there was a plausible explanation for these items.

• 1:01:20Speaker 03

  Dinah Taylor was subject to ongoing surveillance, a wiretap and an undercover investigation. The RCMP would clarify they believed she may have some knowledge and/or some involvement in the case, but there was not enough evidence for charges. That said, part of the defence's strategy was to suggest Dinah Taylor as one of several alternative suspects to Robert Pickton, particularly in the murder of Andrea Joesbury, since Dinah admitted to bringing her back to the farm.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  Robert Pickton did not testify in his own defence, but his defence lawyers suggested he had a low IQ and was slow, a man of limited intelligence. The crown witnesses, including Gina Houston and Lynne Ellingson, Scott Chubb and Andrew Bellwood, were all accused of being junkies that Pickton helped, who had taken advantage of his generosity and were now telling lies about him to get their hands on the reward money. The court heard from several sex workers who testified that Robert Pickton was not violent, he was generous and nice, he respected their boundaries without expecting anything in return.

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  But this stood in contrast to the other evidence that he had several different sides to his personality, along a spectrum from friendly and simple, to cold, manipulative and violent. The defence suggested a large number of people came and went from the property, gang members, Hell's Angels, sex workers, drug users, and no-one kept track of it, could have been anyone. The defence pointed their fingers at the suspicious behaviour of Robert Pickton's acquaintances, suggesting it was not fair or reasonable to blame all the murders on him.

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  Dinah Taylor was of course one of those friends, and so was Pat Casanova, Robert Pickton's butchering partner. He was actually the third suspect arrested in connection with the murders, apart from Robert Pickton, and that happened 11 months after the search of the farm began, based on DNA evidence found in multiple locations. The police were suspicious the married father of four in his mid-sixties might have been an accomplice to more than just butchering and barbecue pork. His DNA was found on one swab taken from inside the door of the slaughterhouse, and it was mixed with the DNA of victim Mona Wilson.

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  Pat Casanova's DNA was also found on an orange rubber apron hanging in the slaughterhouse, and in several other areas there. And in a freezer beside the freezer that contained human remains.

• 1:04:25Speaker 03

  At the trial, Pat Casanova testified for the Crown that he butchered pigs on the farm over 18 years every weekend. He denied killing anyone, denied any involvement in the murders, and denied seeing any dead bodies or knowingly disposing of any. He testified about Robert Pickton's method of slaughtering and butchering pigs, saying they were killed with either a 22 caliber firearm or a nail gun, and then slaughtered and butchered in a similar method to how Lynne Ellingson had testified about the night she saw him in the slaughterhouse with a woman strung up. Pat Casanova also explained that in the case of a pig,

• 1:05:09Speaker 03

  the head might be cut in half based on the wishes of the customer, and for many years, Robert Pickton used a handsaw. But about eight months before the farm search started, Pickton brought a reciprocating saw to start doing that work, because it works better.

• 1:05:30Speaker 03

  Police had seized a bandsaw from Pat Casanova's house that had human DNA on it, but not enough to identify from whom. At trial, he testified he had no explanation for that. Pat Casanova's DNA was also found in Robert Pickton's mobile trailer home, on a bathroom wall near a stain linked to victim Andrea Josbury, and on night vision goggles in the laundry room. He testified that he originally lied to police, and admitted that he had seen sex workers on the farm and on occasion, paid some of them for sex. He identified Andrea Josbury as being one of those women.

• 1:06:15Speaker 03

  He said when he lied to the police, he didn't know that she was dead.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  RCMP officers testified that Pat Casanova was put under surveillance, a wiretap, and an undercover operation, but there was not sufficient evidence for charges. Pat Casanova passed away in 2011. Perhaps the one left with the biggest question mark was Robert Pickton's younger brother, David Pickton. He was not called to testify at the trial, and neither was their older sister, Linda Pickton. RCMP officers testified that they believed David Pickton was the brains of the two brothers, that he took care of his older brother but was also condescending to him,

• 1:07:05Speaker 03

  and that Robert appeared submissive to David and deferred to him often. Robert's defence lawyers put in great effort to point out details about David's violent criminal past, including his sexual assault conviction, his association with Hell's Angels, and his sexual practices. In David Pickton's interview with The Province soon after the farm search began, he claimed he'd moved away from the farm a few years earlier, but police testimony seems to confirm he was still living in the farmhouse. Regardless, the farmhouse was part of the farm search.

• 1:07:47Speaker 03

  Under David Pickton's bed, there was an electric massager that had DNA belonging to a woman who was never identified. Her DNA was also found in a freezer in the slaughterhouse and on a floor vent in Robert Pickton's mobile trailer. There was a bucket found in David Pickton's bedroom that had the label "Clout", similar to the label on one of the buckets that contained human remains in the freezer. Also in his bedroom, they found multiple dildos, black leather wrist restraints, and a bottle of massage oil. In his closet, there was another dildo, a tube of whipped cream, and a tube of lubricant

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  that had animal hairs on it and blood-like stains. There was no testimony about whether the stains came from a human. Similar blood-like stains were found on the kitchen counter and on a sheepskin and carpet in a shed outside the house, again with no testimony about origin. David Pickton's fingerprint was discovered on a piece of cardboard above the freezer, where the remains of Serena Abbotzway and Andrea Josbury were located. There's also no information about whether he was questioned by police. All that's known is that he was under police surveillance for a time.

• 1:09:15Speaker 03

  Police testified they could find no proof to connect David Pickton to the murders of the women, but they still considered him a person of interest who warrants further investigation. Then, there was DNA evidence that remains a mystery. On the bucket containing Andrea Josbury's remains was DNA belonging to two unknown men. On teeth belonging to Andrea and Serena Abbotzway, there was DNA of three people who were also unidentified. And there was a fingerprint on one of the freezers that was not a match to Robert Pickton, but was not compared to anyone else's.

• 1:10:06Speaker 03

  The trial lasted for almost a year and the jury heard evidence from almost 130 witnesses. Robert Pickton listened to all the testimony without showing emotion.

• 1:10:20Speaker 03

  In closing arguments, the Crown reminded the jury of Pickton's statements to the undercover officer or cell plant and his admissions to investigators in his police interrogation. Personal items belonging to four of the victims were found in his mobile trailer home and the remains of all six that were part of this trial were found in his workplace. Pickton's defence lawyer attempted to persuade the jury that there was no evidence that he killed any of the missing women, that no witnesses had actually seen the murders, that Lynne Ellingson was not credible, and that, quote, "It really comes down to this question: who fired the gun?"

• 1:11:06Speaker 03

  The court also heard that despite multiple items linking Robert Pickton's DNA to DNA belonging to missing women, he couldn't be tied forensically to the buckets holding the body parts and none of his firearms or saw blades could be conclusively matched to the women's remains.

• 1:11:28Speaker 03

  When the defence mentioned Marnie Frey, whose partial jawbone was found during the farm excavation, and argued there was no way Pickton could have killed her, Marnie's 15-year-old daughter Brittany broke down in tears in the courtroom. Laurie Colbert reported for the Vancouver Sun that, quote, "In a touching show of emotion, Jeannie De Vries, the 16-year-old daughter of missing woman Sarah De Vries, hugged Brittany as she wept."

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  The tragedy of what happened at the farm did not end with the arrest of Robert Pickton. It reverberated through the lives of the ninety-eight children who lost their mothers. Some, like Brittany, Jeannie and her brother, were adopted and raised by family. Others entered foster care or were adopted outside their families. They would all continue to face ongoing challenges including the trauma and stigma tied to the violence against their mothers.

• 1:12:53Speaker 03

  The jury deliberated for five days with no word. Then, on day six, the jury sent a question to the judge. Were they able to find Robert Pickton guilty even if they believed he did not act alone or if others were involved? The answer was yes. As long as the jury believed Pickton actively participated in the killing to the degree required by the law, the jury could find him guilty. After another three days, the jury finally reached a verdict. On December 9th of 2007, they announced that they had found Robert Pickton guilty of second-degree murder

• 1:13:37Speaker 03

  in the deaths of all six victims. But he had been charged with first-degree murder. The jury's verdict indicated they did not believe the Crown had proved the main element of first-degree murder, that it was planned, deliberate and premeditated. Many were baffled by this distinction.

• 1:14:00Speaker 03

  There were reportedly mixed reactions from the families in the courtroom, including those of Mahne Frey, Serena Abbotway, Mona Wilson, Andrea Josbury, Brenda Wolf and Georgina Pappan. Some immediately proclaimed “yes”, others spoke out about the injustice of guilt only in the second degree, and many broke down in tears.

• 1:14:28Speaker 03

  After the verdict, Don Adam, the RCMP investigator who finally got Robert Pickton to break down and partially confess, told the press that he didn't believe justice was served. Quote, "Willie Pickton is a chameleon. Let's not be confused about his capabilities. He got every break in the world and people underestimated him. I was left sitting there looking into his eyes with a real sense of malignant evil. I just had the smallest sense he was playing with me and of what it must have been like for those women when they were in his control."

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  Before Robert Pickton was sentenced, the court heard victim impact statements from the loved ones of the six victims who were part of this trial. Many of them read out by the Crown Prosecutor because the family members were too distraught. The same themes echoed again and again through their statements. How the loss never really ends and it's not just grief. How it affects their sleep, their health, their relationships. Some described a constant fear, intrusive thoughts, and even moments where they did not want to keep living. They struggled to trust others. What happened fundamentally changed who they are.

• 1:15:56Speaker 03

  They also spoke about what was taken from their families. These women were mothers, daughters, sisters, and they had many happy memories. Now there were kids growing up without their mums, grandparents stepping in to raise grandchildren, and holidays and birthdays that felt incomplete. Many family members carried immense guilt, wondering if they should have done something differently.

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  There was a lot of anger as well. Families pushed back against the way their loved ones were reduced to labels, simply because they were vulnerable. These were real women who were loved, who had plans and who wanted better lives. Yet, a lot of the media coverage and the focus on Robert Pickton often made them feel like the many women were just an afterthought.

• 1:16:53Speaker 03

  And underneath it all was the same question: What happened in those final moments?

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  Some family members mentioned trying to cope with the injustice and the unanswered questions through sobriety, faith, or advocacy in their loved one's name. But none of them spoke of closure. What they described was something that would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Marnie Frey's stepmother Lynne read a statement written by Marnie's 15-year-old daughter Brittany. She looked directly at Robert Pickton as she read, quote: "Why did you hurt my real mother and those other women? Do you know how you hurt those family members and me? Mr. Pickton, why would you do that? What did they do to you?"

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  Robert Pickton again showed no emotion and kept his head bowed down. He would be a coward, right to the end.

• 1:18:14Speaker 03

  In sentencing, Judge James Williams told the court that Pickton's conduct was murderous and repeatedly so. And although no one knows the exact details of what happened, quote, "I do know this: Each of these women were murdered and their remains were dismembered. What happened to them was senseless and despicable. Nothing I can say can adequately express the revulsion the community feels at the killings." The judge pointed out that Pickton had expressed no remorse whatsoever. For six counts of second degree murder, he was sentenced to six life sentences to be served concurrently or at the same time,

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  and he would not be eligible for parole for the maximum of 25 years. When Robert Pickton was given the chance to make a statement, he looked as though he was going to say something, but his lawyer spoke up. His client did want to say something, but because he would be going to trial again for the remaining 20 charges, he had accepted advice to stay quiet for now.

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  The defence appealed, arguing that what Robert Pickton admitted to the undercover officer in his cell were just his attempts to impress the man, thinking he was a hardened criminal. The appeal also pointed to the DNA that implicated Dinah Taylor and Pat Casanova. It was unsuccessful. The defence tried with the Supreme Court of Canada, also unsuccessful, concluding that the evidence of Pickton's guilt was overwhelming.

• 1:20:06Speaker 03

  A second trial never happened. The Crown declined to prosecute Robert Pickton on the remaining 20 murder charges, which greatly upset the families of those 20 victims. The RCMP recommended Pickton be charged with six more murders: Sharon Abraham, Stephanie Lane, Yvonne Boone, Jackie Murdock, Dawn Cray and Nancy Clark. This didn't happen either.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  The Missing Women Commission of Inquiry took two years, and the final report in 2012 made one thing painfully clear: These women weren't just failed by one police officer or one decision. They were failed by an entire system that didn't see them, didn't hear them, and didn't act when it mattered most. Commissioner, the Honourable Wally T Opal QC, found that warnings were brushed aside, families were dismissed, and deep-rooted bias, especially against Indigenous women, allowed Robert Pickton to keep killing while loved ones begged for help.

• 1:21:22Speaker 03

  It was described as a colossal failure of policing. The Vancouver Police Department and the RCMP apologised to the families of the missing women for their losses and for the many mistakes that meant they did not catch Pickton sooner. It was a case of too little, too late. Nothing could bring their loved ones back.

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  In the years after the guilty verdict, Robert Pickton's siblings, David and Linda Pickton, filed a civil claim against the BC Government, alleging that the RCMP's search of the pig farm had caused extensive damage to their property, buildings, vehicles, landscaping, and other land they owned. They believed they were the victims and claimed they incurred significant loss and damage as a result. This lawsuit did nothing to help their public image. The siblings would drop the lawsuit three years later.

• 1:22:34Speaker 03

  In 2010, Robert Pickton gave a phone interview with John Woodward for CTV News, saying police were still hunting, looking for a scapegoat. He claimed he wanted to testify in his own defence at trial, that he had all this information that could have blown the whole thing apart, but his lawyer would not let him testify. He was asked why he didn't just get a new lawyer or represent himself, and he claimed, "Because you can't." Robert Pickton lied like it's second nature. He told the journalist that Andy Bellwood was lying to get revenge because he'd been beaten up on the farm.

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  He called Lyn Ellingson a lying spaghetti brain, and that Wendy attacked him with a knife to steal his money. He claimed the undercover officer in his cell tricked him into making those admissions about the rendering plant, and tricked him into joking about wanting to kill 50 women and his claims about beating the Green River Killer. When asked who the real killer was then, Pickton said he didn't know, but accused the Hells Angels of being involved as well as other people who visited the farm. Despite his repeated protests of innocence and promises to provide the real story,

• 1:24:01Speaker 03

  Robert Pickton didn't provide any additional detail or point the finger at anyone. The sister of Sarah De Vries, Maggie De Vries, told the journalist, quote, "He's already done the most heinous things imaginable, so why would I expect better from him?" As families were still grappling with these unanswered questions, another set of battles was already taking shape, leading to Robert Pickton eventually being eligible for parole.

• 1:24:40Speaker 03

  After the break, his final chapter.

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• 1:26:26Speaker 03

  The injustices did not end with Robert Pecton's conviction. For some families, they simply took a different turn. Three years after the trial, Marney Frey's remains were returned to her parents in Campbell River on Vancouver Island. They were told the remains had been cremated. But when they brought the urn to a funeral director to arrange burial, they learned the bones had not been cremated properly. It appeared they'd been manually broken up to fit inside the urn. Rick and Lyn Frey called it disrespectful. The funeral director described it as a desecration.

• 1:27:09Speaker 03

  The Freys pushed for a review of how all of the remains had been handled. Later, their concerns were validated by records showing the remains had been “wrapped in an envelope, rolled up in a towel, and crushed with a mallet”. The Freys saw it as yet more evidence that these vulnerable women were considered disposable, and how that attitude had continued years after their deaths. Cara Ellis's family faced a different shock. In 2010, they were given an urn and told it contained all that was left of Cara after DNA testing.

• 1:27:53Speaker 03

  Years later, after reviewing police files, a family member discovered additional bone fragments had been overlooked. Those remains were eventually returned to the family. Stephanie Lane's family later learned that part of her spine, recovered from the farm, had never even been entered as evidence, and Robert Pickton was never charged for her murder. The remains sat in RCMP storage for years before being returned in 2014.

• 1:28:29Speaker 03

  And these families were not alone, according to reporting by Jeremy Haynesworth for Glacier Media. The records revealed discrepancies in the number of cremations and burial permits issued compared to the number of victims. The families of Mona Wilson, Georgina Pappan and Andrea Josbury questioned whether they had clearly consented to cremation and were confused about how the remains were actually handled. Mona Wilson's brother publicly questioned whether the remains his family received were truly his sisters.

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  Investigations followed, suggesting the former regional coroner and another funeral director had mishandled the remains. They pushed back. Fines were issued and later reduced. The RCMP opened a review but laid no criminal charges. In 2023, BC's chief coroner apologised publicly to the Frey family, acknowledging that the handling of Marnie's remains did not meet service standards. But the family was ultimately told no further action would be taken.

• 1:29:48Speaker 03

  Rick Frey tells us the situation has not been resolved to this day. He would like to see a criminal investigation based on the criminal code offence of indignity to a human body. The family consulted with a forensic anthropologist, who said the fragments in their urn were consistent with Marnie's remains but couldn't say so definitively. So they don't know what to do with Marnie's remains. They don't even know if they actually are her remains. Another injustice.

• 1:30:23Speaker 03

  And for the ninety-eight children left without their mothers, the story is far from over. They're in the midst of a years-long battle. Robert Pickton could have pleaded guilty and saved them all from a long, arduous trial and the intense emotional, physical and financial costs that came with it. His sister Linda had claimed there was no money left from their millions to pay for his legal expenses, yet after his trial, he somehow managed to pony up the cash to fund an unsuccessful appeal and try again with the Supreme Court.

• 1:31:03Speaker 03

  This all caused further unnecessary trauma to the families of his many victims. Linda Pickton and David Pickton's attempted lawsuit after that was more salt in the wound. In 2013, the children, then adults, filed civil lawsuits against the Pickton brothers, several RCMP officers and three levels of government, alleging in part that police failed to properly investigate the disappearances and failed to protect vulnerable women in the downtown east side while the killings continued.

• 1:31:44Speaker 03

  The governments paid out financial settlements to the children of fifty thousand dollars each, which would give them a leg up to improve their future prospects, according to their lawyer, Jason Gradle. There was no admission of wrongdoing, but that settlement brought the claims against government bodies to an end. What did not end were the lawsuits against the Pickton family. Lawyer Jason Gradle tells us that nine civil actions remain tied to Robert and David Pickton, seven of those named both brothers. And the reason is tied to that question the jury asked the judge while they were deliberating:

• 1:32:28Speaker 03

  Can they convict Robert Pickton even if he did not act alone?

• 1:32:34Speaker 03

  The civil lawsuit alleges that David Pickton knew, or should have known, what was happening on that farm, and that he had a duty to warn the women who entered it.

• 1:32:47Speaker 03

  When the civil actions were first filed, both Robert and David Pickton filed statements of defence. Robert denied civil liability, and David denied knowledge of his brother's crimes. He said he had no idea sex workers were being murdered on his family property, and denied ever helping his brother cover up his crimes. In recent years, the children of the missing women learned that the RCMP was planning to send human remains evidence from the farm that they'd been keeping over to the BC Coroner's Service. The children tried to stop this from happening,

• 1:33:29Speaker 03

  arguing it might be needed for their upcoming civil actions. The BC Supreme Court would rule that the remains themselves were not necessary to advance the civil claim, but those on the victim's side do not agree. Their lawyer tells us this evidence includes many items with the DNA markers of unidentified men and women, and the destruction of these items and DNA markers could limit future prosecutions. After more than a decade of litigation, the civil actions were finally set to go to trial. But that plan would be derailed by an unexpected development.

• 1:34:22Speaker 03

  Early 2024, public outrage erupted after reports revealed that Robert Pickton was now eligible to apply for day parole. By this point, he was 74 years old, and it had been 23 years since he was first incarcerated. At the time, he was still in maximum security at Port Cartier Institution in Quebec, about 850 kilometres north-east of Montreal. If he were approved for day parole, it would have allowed him to leave custody during the day while returning to prison or a halfway house at night. And if that went well, he'd be eligible to apply for full parole in 2027.

• 1:35:09Speaker 03

  When an incarcerated person is eligible for parole in Canada, it doesn't mean that they will automatically get parole. They have to apply, and they have to have a hearing before the Parole Board of Canada. While the Canadian justice system focuses on rehabilitation over punishment, the Parole Board of Canada is all about public safety. It's the primary consideration in all their decisions. The board examines the applicant's criminal history, behaviour in custody, whether they have any insight into their crimes, like remorse, or whether they've taken accountability, their progress in rehabilitation, whether they've cascaded down from maximum security

• 1:35:54Speaker 03

  to medium or minimum security, and have proven they can be trusted, whether they have a practical plan for living in the community, and what supports they might have. It would be very unusual for the Parole Board to release a violent serial killer, still in maximum security, back into the community in any capacity. Correctional Service Canada would not confirm whether Robert Pickton had actually applied for parole, or whether he intended to do so, but this news alone was enough to re-traumatise the families of his many victims, reopening wounds that had never fully healed.

• 1:36:35Speaker 03

  They organised a candlelight vigil at the fence on Dominion Avenue, the former site of the pig farm, to raise awareness of the injustice. Dozens of people showed up to support them, although it should have been more, as they hung flowers, posters, and red dresses in remembrance of the women who lost their lives on that farm. Among those in attendance was Lauralai Williams, cousin of Tanya Holick, who said returning to the site where so many women were last known to be alive took an emotional toll. She spoke of children growing up without mothers, of holidays and milestones permanently marked by absence.

• 1:37:21Speaker 03

  Lauralai Williams said families were never informed by the justice system that Robert Pickton’s parole eligibility date was approaching. She only learned of it through a lawyer she knew. She said the lack of communication did not surprise her.

• 1:37:39Speaker 03

  “We’ve seen it many times before. Too often, the victims are surprised to learn painful updates from the media or third parties instead of hearing it from the justice system itself. Parole eligibility is always an extremely difficult time for those on the victim’s side, but a lack of sensitive communication leaves them feeling a deep sense of disrespect, hurt, and mistrust.” Lauralai Williams said she didn’t trust the justice system, describing it as racist and deeply harmful to Indigenous women and communities. She said she’d been told by lawyers that a parole board would almost certainly never grant Robert Pickton day parole,

• 1:38:23Speaker 03

  but that assurance brought her little comfort. Quote, “There’s always going to be that fear.”

• 1:38:32Speaker 03

  That sentiment was echoed by Michelle Pino, whose daughter Stephanie Lane was just 22 years old when she vanished in 1997, her DNA later found at the Pickton farm. Stephanie’s mother told the press that Pickton, quote, “should not walk on this earth.” She spoke of the baby her daughter left behind and said she thinks of Stephanie every day, but does not want to be forced to think about Pickton. All they could do was wait and see if Pickton would apply.

• 1:39:15Speaker 03

  A man named Martin Shirey was incarcerated in the same unit as Robert Pickton at maximum-security Port Cartier Institution in Quebec. At the time, Martin Shirey was 51 years old, and he'd spent nearly all of his adult life in federal custody following repeated convictions for violent crime, including assault and multiple armed robberies, according to reporting by Kim Bolan and Paul Cherry for The Vancouver Sun. His sentence had been extended several times while incarcerated due to further misconduct, including uttering threats and assaulting a male nurse.

• 1:39:57Speaker 03

  It did not seem likely that Martin Shirey would ever be released. And he'd grown increasingly angry and disturbed by comments Pickton had been making. According to Shirey, the 74-year-old former pig farmer had been speaking loud and clear about his many crimes, openly bragging, adding that he would continue to commit more crimes if released. Shirey came to believe that Pickton posed an ongoing danger. The final straw with Pickton, according to Shirey, was when he heard from another inmate that Pickton, quote, "said that a child was with one of the women he killed.

• 1:40:40Speaker 03

  He said he wanted to eat the liver of the child."

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  Martin Shirey would describe that moment as when he "lost control", quote, "I could not let him go on."

• 1:40:58Speaker 03

  Just after 5pm that day, while medication was being distributed in the unit, Shirey found himself alone in a common room with Robert Pickton and took his chance. He manipulated the door lock to make it difficult for staff to open and shut the door behind him. He knocked Pickton to the ground and began punching and kicking him as staff tried to get the door open. When they got into the room, gas was deployed to stop the assault. Martin Shirey recoiled, and staff persuaded him to stop as Robert Pickton lay on the floor.

• 1:41:39Speaker 03

  But Sheree did not stop. He suddenly grabbed a nearby broom, snapped the wooden handle and drove it into Pickton's face.

• 1:41:53Speaker 03

  That was May 19, 2024. Pickton was airlifted to Quebec City Hospital following what was described as a major assault that left him clinging to life. After surgery, Robert Pickton was placed in a medically induced coma. The police expressed interest in interviewing him if he ever recovered.

• 1:42:18Speaker 03

  He never did. He never regained consciousness and died 12 days later, at the age of 74. His cause of death was blunt poly-trauma, meaning multiple severe injuries that together proved fatal, a type of trauma most commonly seen in high-impact events like serious motor-vehicle collisions. In the days that followed, authorities released few details, but family members of Pickton's victims publicly hinted at the extreme violence involved, including the use of a broken broom handle.

• 1:43:00Speaker 03

  The family of Marnie Frey said that while Pickton's death was brutal, it did not compare to the pain and terror he inflicted on his many victims. They also pointed out that many other families never even received the same sense of closure, given Pickton had only been convicted in relation to six women. Other victims' families described his death as calmer. While they felt relief, they also acknowledged the news brought complicated feelings to the surface. Martin Sheree pleaded guilty to first-degree murder, telling the judge he lost control. Quote, "It's regrettable, but it happened and I don't have any remorse.

• 1:43:46Speaker 03

  I know that we can't take justice into our own hands, but I killed him for the victims, not for myself."

• 1:43:55Speaker 03

  At sentencing, there were no victim impact statements. No one to speak about how the loss of Robert Pickton impacted them. The prosecutor mentioned that Robert's brother David had declined to speak, and his older sister Linda was long since out of the picture. Martin Shirey received an automatic life sentence, the judge noting that his victim had been guilty of the worst atrocities a person can commit towards others, but he still has the right to serve his sentence in safety. Correctional Services Canada is required by law to investigate incidents where an inmate dies or suffers serious bodily injury.

• 1:44:39Speaker 03

  This investigation found that while staffing levels met standards, there were systemic failures that contributed to the murder of Robert Pickton, most notably the fact that inmates had unrestricted access to mop and broom handles that could be used as weapons. Recommendations were made.

• 1:45:01Speaker 03

  After Robert Pickton's death, prison staff had searched his cell for a legal will, but none was found. Instead, they discovered hundreds of pages of handwritten material, including a collection titled, "Pickton in His Own Words: My Life as I Truly See It." The RCMP seized the writings, hoping that Pickton might provide information about any of his victims, including others that might not have been connected to him. Pickton's ramblings were thoroughly examined, and according to the RCMP, contained no references to any missing women or offences, and no new information for families.

• 1:45:47Speaker 03

  For many Canadians, Robert Pickton’s death brought a sense of closure. And for the families of the six women he was convicted of murdering, it means they’ll never have to brace themselves for another looming parole hearing. The families of Marnie Frey, Georgina Pappan, Brenda Wolf, Serena Abbotzway, Andrea Josbury, and Mona Wilson will never have to relive the horrific details of his crimes as they organise their fear and grief into formal language, reopening old wounds to explain, once again, how the violence reshaped their lives.

• 1:46:28Speaker 03

  They’ll never have to decide whether to face him in person at a parole hearing and hear his name spoken in a room debating his release. And they’ll never have to endure the recurring cycle of preparation and emotional strain each time they’re notified of another parole hearing. But closure is impossible. Any further details Pickton claimed he would provide one day died with him, leaving families still waiting for answers that would never come. The families of the 26 women whose murder charges were stayed were left suspended in a painful in-between.

• 1:47:11Speaker 03

  Nancy Clark, Diana Melneck, Tanya Marlowe Hollick, Andrea Bohraven, Cara Ellis, Cynthia Felix, Helen Hallmark, Sherry Irving, Stephanie Lane, Jaclyn Murdock, Sarah DeVries, Inga Monique Hall, Angela Jardine, Kerry Lynn Kosky, Wendy Crawford, Tiffany Drew, Jennifer Ferminger, Jaclyn McDonald, Sharon Abraham, Dawn Cray, Deborah Jones, Yvonne Boone, Heather Bottomley, Heather Chinock, Patty Johnson, and Diane Rock.

• 1:47:54Speaker 03

  And then, there are the women who disappeared from Vancouver’s downtown east side during that time, without a trace. Rebecca Gunno, Sherry Rail, Marlene Abigosis, Elaine Allenback, Teresa Williams, Cecilia Nikal, Ingrid Sawett, Kathleen Watley, Elsie Sebastian-Jones, Lee Miner, Angela Arsino, Dorothy Spence, Catherine Knight, Catherine Gonzalez, Frances Young, Kelly Little, Olivia

• 1:48:30Speaker 03

  William, Janet Henry, Elaine Dunbar, Cindy Beck, Sheila Egan, Michelle Gurney, Marcy Creason, Julie Young, Angela Williams, Tanya Peterson, and Cheryl Lynn Donahue. No remains, no timeline, and no confirmation of what happened, or who might have been responsible. And in the midst of it all, there’s the still unidentified woman known as Mission Jane Doe. Their families live with a different kind of torment: grief without finality.

• 1:49:12Speaker 03

  What has remained constant is that every year, on February 14th, people come together in Vancouver’s downtown east side for the Women’s Memorial March. Mothers, sisters, children, friends, and neighbours gather, holding photos and signs. They walk the same streets where many of the women lived and were last seen, as a promise they will never be forgotten. May they all rest in power, and our sincere condolences to their loved ones.

• 1:50:04Speaker 03

  Thanks so much for listening and special thanks to Rick Frey and Sandra Gagnon. This series was pieced together from court documents, the public inquiry final report on the farm by the late Stevie Cameron, and decades of coverage by dogged reporters with the Vancouver Sun who kept the issue of Vancouver's missing women front and foremost, including Neil Hall, Kim Pemberton, Lindsay Kynes, Kim Bolan, and Laurie Colbert. Proceeds are being donated to the Wish Droppin Centre. If you found this series compelling, you might like The Shedden Massacre, our three-part

• 1:50:47Speaker 03

  series from 2025, covering the history of outlaw biker clubs in Canada and the biker wars, leading up to the tragic and senseless bandito massacre. Thanks to Danielle Parodie for attempted family outreach and additional research, and to Robin Water from The Trail Went Cold and Jordan Bonaparte from The Canadian Gothic for voiceovers. Thanks also to Crosby Audio for audio editing, producer Lindsay Aldridge, and script consultant Carol Weinberg. Eric Crosby voiced the disclaimer, and the theme song is by We Talk of Dreams.

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