Pod Insights Canadian True Crime Behind the scenes with Kathleen Goldhar from Crime Story About this episode Today, we're pleased to share a special episode from another podcast we think you'll enjoy: Crime Story https://link.mgln.ai/CSxCTC from CBC Podcasts. Each week, award-winning investigative journalist Kathleen Goldhar goes deep into a true crime case with the storyteller who knows it best.
In this year-end episode, Kristi Lee joins Kathleen at CBC Studios to talk about what goes into making Canadian True Crime, share behind-the-scenes insights from past cases, and wrap up with some of their favourite true crime podcasts and documentaries.
You can listen to more incredible tales of true crime every week on Crime Story.
Find more Crime Story episodes in your podcast app, or here: https://link.mgln.ai/CSxCTC
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Hi there, it's Christy Lee. I hope you're staying safe and warm these holidays and sorry about the nasal voice, 'tis the season. Today, I'm sharing an episode of a podcast I think you'll really love. It's called Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. Each week, award-winning investigative journalist Kathleen Goldhar takes a deep dive into a true crime case with the storyteller who knows it best. And for this year-end wrap-up episode, that person is me. I was thrilled to record with Kathleen at CBC Studios. I've followed her work for years and have recommended several of her investigative series to you before, including The No Good, Terribly Kind, Wonderful Lives and Tragic Deaths of Barry
0:42 Speaker 00 and Honey Sherman. In Crime Story, Kathleen explores complex cases with a sharp interviewing style that quickly gets to the core of each story. A recent episode features her in conversation with an ABC journalist, unpacking the infamous Mushroom Murders case that gripped Australia. I also enjoyed her conversation with Amanda Knox. In this episode of Crime Story, I sat down with Kathleen to talk about what goes into making Canadian true crime, some behind-the-scenes details about some cases I've covered, and at the end, our favourite true crime documentaries and podcasts of the year. If you enjoy this conversation, subscribe to Crime Story. There's a link in the show notes.
1:28 Speaker 01 When I started, I was ripe for criticism from other journalists and established broadcasters because, you know, they were like, who is this kind of person inserting themselves into true crime? What are they? What are they doing?
1:46 Speaker 02 On the website for Christy Lee's podcast, she writes that she prefers to avoid the spotlight. And maybe when her show started nine years ago, that might have been possible. But today, Canadian true crime is a juggernaut of a success story. With more than 70 million downloads and hundreds of episodes, Canadian true crime has a lock on the top of the podcast charts. Christy Lee joined me in studio to talk about her work, her success, and the stories that have stuck with her. I'm Kathleen Goldhar and this is Crime Story.
2:28 Speaker 02 Kristy, welcome to the podcast.
2:30 Speaker 01 Thank you so much, Kathleen. I'm so excited to be here. I'm such a huge fan of you and all your work and this show, and it's just amazing to be here.
2:38 Speaker 02 Thank you, and we are too, and jealous of your success, for sure. I mean, it's really amazing. One of the things that I find amazing is that you're sticking to Canadian stories, and it's so popular. But why did you decide to stick to Canadian stories?
2:54 Speaker 01 So I guess I started the podcast as a personal passion project. You know, I just decided I wanted to teach myself how to do a podcast. At the time, I was listening to a lot of true crime podcasts. I was a, you know, a big kind of consumer of true crime content, and I knew what direction I wanted to go in. And there was also, I saw a lot of comments on the internet saying, you know, there's a lot of true crime podcasts out there, you know, more and more are coming, but hardly anyone is doing a focus on Canadian true crime stories. You know, back in the day, I was obsessed with serial killers, the same way a lot of other people who find their way to true crime are. And the Paul Bernardo,
3:39 Speaker 01 Carla Homolka story, like, really hit me back in the late 90s, early 2000s, and it stayed with me. So I just decided to do that story as my first kind of case, and went from there.
3:53 Speaker 02 That's so interesting about the Paul Bernardo thing. I never actually clicked to that. But I mean, I was around, you know, where of a certain age, and I remember it being, and actually, friends of ours worked at the Toronto Star at the time, and I knew some of the people who were covering it. And I remember waiting for the newspaper to show up so I could read the story the next day. And I'd never even put the two together, but that was sort of your first, now you look back and you're like, oh, that's what we do now, is like this, like, every day, covering it, bringing everything big. They really pulled apart the story. They gave you all the details. They brought you to the court. It's so interesting. I hadn't really thought about that case. But for me, too, that was really informative for the work that I ended up doing.
4:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, I bet. Yeah, it was very interesting. And especially, you know, with that case, how Canadian news was getting a different story to what American news was. So I've read that it was a pretty crazy time, because the Canadians were trying to get their hands on the American news and for the publication ban, yeah.
4:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, no, so interesting. You also say on your website that you go beyond the headlines and you don't just ask what happened, you ask why. It's kind of a little bit of what we do too here at Crime Story. But there is a difference between the two of us, right? I'm a journalist. I came through journalism school, all the sort of more traditional lights of getting here. You lean into the advocacy. You lean into having an opinion. You do that kind of stuff. Not that I think, I think as journalist, more traditional journalist, we've moved away from the idea that we can't have a sense of humanity.
5:26 Speaker 01 Right.
5:27 Speaker 02 Which I'm very grateful that we have, because I've always questioned that idea. But I'm just curious about your tact and where you came from. So what is sort of behind the work that you do? You said you did it for your own interests, but it must have, it is more to you than just being somebody who's curious about serial killers.
5:44 Speaker 01 Right. Well, I mean, my interest in serial killers was long done by the time I started the podcast. I'm really interested in, in I guess, the, the human condition and the darker side of humanity and what people are capable of. It was, it's always been an interest to me, the psychology behind, I guess, criminality and, and victimhood. Like, you know, there's, they talk about victim psychology and that type of thing. It, I don't know, I just find it really interesting, just the dark side of, of what humans are capable of and why. And as a woman, what, what we could possibly look out for, what
6:27 Speaker 01 red flags there are. You know, back when I was growing up, I didn't know what gaslighting was, or coercive control, or anything like that. So I was vulnerable and, you know, people could take advantage of me. And I, I think the things that I've learned over my lifetime are things that I would want my children to learn, you know? And so as I'm delving into a case, if I come across like a, a certain issue, you know, there might be- Societal context or historical, socio-economic, and you know, elder abuse, indigenous issues. I like to learn about these things so I can pass them on to the
7:08 Speaker 01 audience and so they can learn. And I, I hear from listeners that they appreciate that, you know, it's not just listening to a crime story. It's, they come away with something new and it's not just because I've dug up a new fact or I've, you know, got a new interview or whatever. It's because I've done some research and I've looked into the facts and the science and the inquiry reports and, and, you know, all the supporting documentation. So, yeah, it's a learning experience.
7:34 Speaker 02 You do so much work into these episodes.
7:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:38 Speaker 02 Can we talk a little bit about just like your process?
7:43 Speaker 01 It's, it's painstaking and I think a lot of that is because I am an indie and I'm an amateur and I didn't start off with journalism as my background. And so I think when I started, I was ripe for criticism from other journalists and established broadcasters because, you know, they were like, who is this kind of person inserting themselves into true crime? What are they? What are they doing? And so I took all that criticism on board and it really pushed me to think, well, what am I doing this for? What, what is my overall goal and purpose? It can't just be my passion project anymore because
8:26 Speaker 01 people are actually listening and I have to really think about the responsibility that I have to the audience. And so I, I just kind of decided, you know, I have to provide that bit of analysis, connecting of dots. Sometimes there's, when you go over a case that's, you know, thirty years old, you know things now that people didn't know back then. So when you're going through the court documents and the news archives, you can see things that, you know, might not have been seen back then. And then I can kind of explore that as part of the story.
9:00 Speaker 02 Give me an example of where that, where that you were able to do that.
9:03 Speaker 01 With, uh, so I've, I've done a, a big series on the opioid crisis in Canada. And my goal with that was to explore it from a criminal kind of perspective, you know, because drug use is considered a crime. And so I really wanted to delve into, um, well, it's not just a crime. People are, uh, getting into drugs and using drugs because, um, because of other factors, you know, dissatisfaction with their life. Oftentimes it's be, it's the direct result of government policy that pushes people into poverty. And so they seek an escape through drugs.
9:45 Speaker 01 And so I, I kind of wanted to explore the human side of, of the crime of drug use or, you know, drug possession. And ex- explain that these people aren't criminals that need to be locked up. They're hurting people who need help.
10:03 Speaker 02 That's what I love about doing this show and the work that I do. And especially that I love about podcasting, especially serialized stories, is this idea that you can get past the headlines and sort of think about everybody's journey to that place, victims and perpetrators. And so often, I mean, of course, there is the small percentage of people who are just bad, but so many more of them are people who are hurting and who didn't, never had a chance. And I think that's, to me, the idea of true crime that always sits with me is like, yeah, we're speaking about something sensational, but when you really look at who people are, we wouldn't be here if there was more kindness and more help and just a little bit more of a safety net or something to protect people.
10:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. And like over the last couple of years, you know, our, our society now, the communities have become so, so much more divided than they ever were. So I think now, more than ever, we need kindness and empathy and understanding and compassion when talking about some of these stories, which are, you know, people's worst days of their lives, you know? People, like the public deserves to understand, like, the real story behind these things. It's not just, you know, a, a bad guy and a good guy type thing. You know, there's always nuance and context that needs to be explored.
11:23 Speaker 02 Yeah. And I know in your podcast, you don't go out and do interviews and your own sort of investigating, but you end up often. Speaking with either victims or the families of victims, that's become. And is that something that sort of evolves over time with you? Tell me how that kind of came to be.
11:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, originally, I wasn't reaching out to anyone because I thought, who am I? Like, no one wants to hear from, you know, this mom in Burlington podcasting from her basement, you know? But after a while, I'm starting to think, well, more and more people are listening, so maybe I should. But as it turned out, I covered the Victoria Stafford case about, you know, the little girl from Woodstock who was abducted and murdered. And after I covered that story, one thing I really wanted to get into was how people criticized the parents because of how they appeared on the press conferences, you know? Victoria's mother was quite cold and unreserved, and people would say, why aren't you crying?
12:26 Speaker 01 Why don't you seem more upset? Like, you must have had something to do with it. And, you know, she was saying, you know, I cry behind the scenes, you know? And as it turns out, she didn't have anything to do with it. And so I really wanted to explore with that, that these are heartbroken parents, and people aren't always going to react the way that you think they're going to react. And we shouldn't rush to judgment because they have a reaction that we don't think is appropriate for the situation. So after that, I guess Rodney Stafford listened to the series.
13:05 Speaker 02 And who's Rodney Stafford?
13:06 Speaker 01 Oh, sorry, Victoria Stafford's father.
13:08 Speaker 02 Oh, OK.
13:08 Speaker 01 And so he reached out to me. And then I started realizing, you know, some of these victims, families of victims and survivors, they do want to talk about the cases. And so I started being more open to it. But Because I'm not a journalist, I didn't want to have to ask them for another interview just so that I could say I've got fresh tape or here's new quotes of them saying the same thing that they've already said many times. So in many cases, I offered them the opportunity to participate in the way that they would want to. So some of them have chosen to um read a statement, others have chosen to send me a statement to read. Um one father
13:53 Speaker 01 of a victim sent me a poem that that victim wrote when he was a teenager and uh and uh he I read that out. And then, you know, when I was covering the Jacob Hogard sexual assault trial, the first trial, and while I was releasing the episodes, one of the survivors behind the case reached out to me from behind the publication ban. And I offered her the opportunity to read her victim impact statement and record it. And I think she found it to be a really empowering kind of move. I don't know, it's just a a different approach um depending on the case, depending on where they are in their their kind of grieving process, how they're feeling about speaking out. I just changed my approach depending on what case and what I'm doing. So, yeah.
14:38 Speaker 02 You called yourself an amateur a little while ago, but you're not an amateur. You're really developed in expertise in this stuff.
14:44 Speaker 01 Well, thank you.
14:45 Speaker 02 I mean, even the fact that you've done the stuff you have with victims, I think it's really insightful. And I think journalists should could learn from you, let alone.
14:53 Speaker 01 Wow.
14:53 Speaker 02 And I know you've learned from them. But I think that there's really something to that, to the way that you have those conversations with the families and the victims and giving them the space to have that conversation the way they want to, which is sort of something that you bump up in the traditional journalism world because we have all these restrictions.
15:10 Speaker 01 Right, right.
15:11 Speaker 02 How do you take care of yourself, though? Because you must be getting a lot of trauma dumping in a way.
15:17 Speaker 01 Yeah. Um, you know, I started having uh therapy during the pandemic.
15:24 Speaker 02 Therapy.
15:26 Speaker 01 Great. And I, you know.
15:28 Speaker 02 Medicine, therapy.
15:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, what else can you do? Um, and you know, it's hard to figure out like where I begin in the podcast or what where I end and the podcast begins. It's all kind of melted together in one big snowball that keeps growing.
15:49 Speaker 01 But I, I don't find the, the cases where I'm working with victims and survivors, those are always the ones where I have the hardest time because I, I'm not a journalist and I do toe that line with advocacy. So I'm not just trying to tell their story, I'm trying to tell it in a way that they would like. So it's, there's a lot of editing and I have to get into their head and, and really understand what it is that they want to get across because oftentimes they can't, they're not in a position to be able to communicate that. And so again, it's, it's kind of that empathy piece, you know?
16:33 Speaker 01 Sometimes they don't, they want to talk about other things around the case and they don't want to talk about the, the actual graphic details. So I take care of that for them and then leave them to be able to discuss what they want to.
16:49 Speaker 02 Are there times when there's a clash between you needing to tell the story as it is and what they want? Because.
16:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:59 Speaker 02 There will be differences there, right?
17:01 Speaker 01 Yes, and it's very, very hard. And I, I, I never want to re-traumatize them or upset them or say something that might be taken the wrong way. I had a, a pretty difficult situation last year. I was covering. I was contacted by a woman who was abducted by a paedophile in Kingston in around nineteen ninety. She was eleven years old and she was one of three little girls who were who was abducted. And later on, the, you know, he was on, he was not caught at the time. But later on, the case was solved through DNA because he went on to murder a woman.
17:45 Speaker 01 So that case kind of solved the three little girl abductions. And at the time, um, the woman who contacted me, her name's Kerry Keigho. She's an amazing victim advocate and just an incredible person. She contacted me to cover the story because the man who abducted her, Richard Charles Joyce, was asking for parole. And she really wanted to make uh the public aware that there is no cure for paedophilia. Um, a person who is has been diagnosed with paedophilic disorder can take therapies. And um and, you know, programs to help them manage the symptoms. But they really have to be wanting to do that and have a desire to change.
18:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
18:30 Speaker 01 And so her her kind of goal was to make the public aware that this isn't just, oh, this guy has done his time. And he says he's changed, like he actually has to demonstrate that he's changed. And that's the message he wanted to put across. But I couldn't tell her story without telling the story of the other two little girls that she was abducted. Like that the guy abducted as well. And also the woman who was murdered, um, because the DNA from that case solved the abductions. And so after I chatted with Kerry, um, and eventually, you know, she introduced me to one of the other little girls who was abducted and she has Down syndrome and, um. After she was abducted and sexually assaulted by this pedophile,
19:15 Speaker 01 she unfortunately, you know, regressed. And so that case, dealing with adult survivors of a childhood abduction and sexual assault by a pedophile, was really, really difficult for me to deal with. Um, and especially because, you know, the other, other little girl had Down's syndrome. And, and so I was dealing with her parents who have been trying to protect her for all of these years, but still had a message that they wanted to put across. And so I really had to tread carefully because these people who have had crimes committed against them several decades ago have had a lot of time to think about it. And they have certain perspectives.
19:59 Speaker 01 And sometimes you can't, you can't mention things that they want you to mention because it just would not go over well. And you don't want to say no to them because they really want you to mention that thing. So in the end, I just kind of deferred to truth and transparency.
20:20 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
20:20 Speaker 01 And so I did that. And, um, Carrie and I, the, the survivor, had a, a really good conversation. She explained where she was coming from and I did. And we ended up coming to a kind of a common ground where we were both comfortable with it. And then we moved on. And so that's, that's kind of how I get through everything.
20:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:38 Speaker 01 I have made mistakes, but, you know, apologize, move on.
20:44 Speaker 02 Honesty and kindness again, yeah.
20:46 Speaker 01 Right.
20:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:51 Speaker 02 What about the other side of this, the justice system? So a lot of what you look at and you talk about is the punishment of this too. So not only are you dealing with the victims, but you're dealing with whatever justice decides justice is. Can you tell me about what you feel like is working, what isn't working, where you see the problems? Like, what have you kind of come to realize about the way that we punish perpetrators in this country?
21:16 Speaker 01 So I have really nuanced views, like everything, about policing in the prison system. And I, I, I am on the page of prison abolition and realising that the prison system is not always the best way to deal with, um, with offenders. And unfortunately, it's the only system that we have. But oftentimes, people get, uh, people say, well, you can't just abolish the prison system because people would be, you know, these dangerous criminals would be out walking amongst us. What are you going to do about it?
22:01 Speaker 01 And I think, again, what people fail to realise is that a lot of crime is caused by where we are in society and is the direct result of government policy. And, um, obviously, you know, there's bad people, like you said before, but maybe if we invested more money into helping them and to be more successful instead of, um, punishing them when they've done the wrong thing, you know, help them up front instead of like coming in behind and punishing them. Um, so that's kind of one of the views that I've developed as a result of doing this.
22:40 Speaker 01 The other thing is how, how cases proceed through, through the criminal system and how what often happens behind the scenes is not so clear cut as what it might appear to be when it's reported by the media. And a lot of times that involves me going through court documents and comparing to other evidence. Um, and one, one of those cases is, is the Hockey Canada trial recently. So I decided to go through the entire judge's written decision to see exactly how it was
23:22 Speaker 01 that she arrived at the not guilty verdict because I saw some language coming out in the headlines that. Was taken directly from that written decision and I I felt like it was overly harsh and disparaging towards the victim complainant. Oftentimes, if you're just following a case through the media, you might miss miss some of these things because, you know, a judge's 90-page decision is difficult for journalists to report on, you know, it it takes a lot of time to go through and compare it to to evidence and stuff. And at the end of the day, judges and juries are just humans. And sure, a judge's opinion is the final version, but there are always things that we can learn from it.
24:05 Speaker 02 People always ask me, because I do this show and the other work that I do, do I still listen to True Crime? And I listen all the time. Like, this job feels like I get paid to do what I love. Do you still listen? Are you still a big fan of it, of the industry?
24:19 Speaker 01 I, oh, yeah, I am, for sure. I would say, like, not, I'm not as frenetic about consuming the content as I once was. And I don't tend to listen exclusively to True Crime podcasts the way I used to. I tend to pick and choose now what I'm listening to based on, you know, what's what's being talked about.
24:43 Speaker 02 Let's talk about it. What's what's some of the ones that you've enjoyed in the last little while?
24:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I I recently watched this case, this documentary about the Christine Jessup story. And it really, really touched me. I had followed the case loosely. It's one of Canada's most well-known wrongful conviction cases.
25:08 Speaker 02 Let's remind people, just in case.
25:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, so Christine Jessup was a nine-year-old girl who was, who disappeared from her home in Queenstown, which is about an hour north of Toronto. And this was in 1984. And three months later, her remains were found in in the Durham region about, you know, not close to where her home was. And at the time, she had this weird neighbor who acted oddly, and his name was Guy Paul Moran. And the police kind of zeroed in on him and... As like they had tunnel vision, you know, they apparently they kept like two notebooks,
25:50 Speaker 01 one with evidence that that they thought proved he was guilty and then other other evidence that went completely against him. And so they chucked that one out and kept the one notebook. And so this Guy Paul Moran, the poor guy, ended up being found not guilty. And then he was tried again, found guilty and then exonerated through DNA. But the case remained unsolved ever since. And in 2020, genetic genealogy, which is the same technology that was used to catch the Golden State Killer, a Toronto police officer decided
26:30 Speaker 01 to to apply that technology to the Christine Jessup case and see if they could use genetic genealogy to track down a relative of the person, you know, the DNA that was found with the remains. So they ended up doing that and they identified the perpetrator, Calvin Hoover, and he'd passed away by suicide in 2015. So the family got a form of closure, but they never really understood why, obviously. But this documentary, so throughout the years, the case kind of went from Christine over to Guy Paul Moran, right? There's two victims, the one who died and the one who was wrongfully convicted of of the murder. And this is the
27:14 Speaker 01 story that that her family wants to wants people to know. So I thought I think that that's really important because the story has been told so many times over the years. And it all comes back to that victim, you know, Christine Jessup, the little nine-year-old girl with the pixie face.
27:29 Speaker 02 That's a big one. It's funny, wrongfully convicted stories, my favorite podcast, one of my favorite, is the Bone Valley podcast that Gilbert King did about Leo Schofield.
27:40 Speaker 01 I haven't listened to that, but I hear about it everywhere.
27:43 Speaker 02 It's incredible. It's incredible in all the ways. The story is important, the writing, the interviews, the way they set it up. I mean, also, I love listening and listening to the craft of it, just because you can learn so much. But it's the same idea. So Leo Schofield was arrested for killing his wife and he didn't. Long and the short of it, but you know, he was in jail for such a long time and he always sort of couldn't really mourn her properly because of course, everyone thought he killed her. And so the idea of the victim and the family and all that just gets so much more messed up when you even get the wrong person.
28:17 Speaker 01 Right.
28:18 Speaker 02 So that's a podcast you should listen to if you get the chance.
28:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, I will.
28:21 Speaker 02 And there's a second season that's equally as wonderful. And I've been so lucky that I got to interview Gilbert King twice for it. So, yeah, he's awesome. He's a lovely man.
28:32 Speaker 01 Okay, I need to get on the Bone Valley thing.
28:36 Speaker 02 What else? What else are you listening to?
28:38 Speaker 01 So I, I want to talk about Sea of Lies.
28:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:43 Speaker 01 Because I loved that podcast so much. And it's about a case that I have covered before on my show. And it's a kind of a twisty, turny case that crosses boundaries between Canada and England. And it's, it's basically the Canadian is a financier who, he's a scammer, he's all kinds of awful thing. He impersonated, he's a murderer.
29:11 Speaker 01 And so it is a very, it's one of those cases that as it unfolded, it was, it had so many twists and turns and like big reveals.
29:22 Speaker 01 And when I saw that Sea of Lies was going to be released, my interest was immediately piqued because I, I knew it was completely solved like years ago, maybe decades ago, and there haven't been any new developments since then apart from like a parole hearing. So I'm thinking to myself, what, what is going to be in this podcast? And I was really interested because Sam Mullins is a very, you know, well-respected podcaster. And I thought, he's, you know, he's, he's confident, he knows what he's doing, he has a team. And I thought, let's see what, what somebody of that caliber would do with the same story that, that I did.
30:04 Speaker 01 And, and what he ended up getting on this, this tape was these incredible characters, you know, very quirky, British humour. I really.
30:17 Speaker 01 Really admired the way he was able to toe the line between like a, an entertaining story and something that was also really sensitive when it needed to be and respectful to the victims and and their families. And you know, there's other victims in this case, secondary victims.
30:38 Speaker 01 I, I just thought it was really, really excellent. And I, I hope, I hope it will win a lot of awards.
30:43 Speaker 02 I think it's already started to win awards.
30:45 Speaker 01 Right.
30:45 Speaker 02 I think it won a signal award. Are you thinking, is there a podcast you'd like to do more serialized, like with your own investigations?
30:53 Speaker 01 Oh, I can't even really, I mean, when I take on cases that end up being like that, I just kind of disrupt my own publication schedule to do a full series. Which is what I did with this Hockey Canada case. Like, you know, I spent two months on it, took over my summer. It's kind of,
31:12 Speaker 01 it sent my, it's derailed my, my next season. And these are the things that I have to do, you know, it's a, if I, if it's a passion project, then I have to follow my passion. And because I guess I'm, I'm the boss, I can say these things. And although there's a whole bunch of listeners that aren't interested in the Hockey Canada trial or sexual assault cases. So I feel like I've alienated all those people. So now I have to try and, you know, it's, it's a constant, um, give and take where that comes from. But to do something like what Sam Mullins did, I would need like a team and I just, I, I generally work autonomously.
31:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:53 Speaker 01 And I would also need to take a sabbatical because I release episodes most of the year round. So it's really hard. It's like, how do you jump off a moving train?
32:01 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, congratulations. I mean, it's really a success story. And I'm just really impressed and I'm glad we finally got to meet in person.
32:10 Speaker 01 Thank you so much, Kathleen. I, it's been lovely chatting with you. I think we could probably talk for a few more hours.
32:16 Speaker 02 I think we could. Yeah. No, it's awesome. Yeah. Great. And keep up the good work.
32:20 Speaker 01 Thank you. You too.
32:21 Speaker 02 Okay.
32:27 Speaker 02 You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. You can hear the show ad-free by subscribing to CBC True Crime on Apple Podcasts. Be sure to follow us there on Apple or on Spotify. You can also find us on YouTube. Just search and subscribe to CBC True Crime. The show is hosted by me, Kathleen Goldhar. Our producers are Nikki Manfredi and Hadil Abdulnabi. Sound design and video production by Julian Newzeli, Reza Daya and Evan Agard. Our digital producer is Emily Canal and our YouTube producer is John Lee. Our senior producer is Kate Evans. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager of CBC Podcasts and Arif Noorani is the director.
33:15 Speaker 00 That was an episode of Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. You can listen to more episodes wherever you get your podcasts, and there's a link in the show notes. Don't forget to check out that mushroom murders case, it's wild. I hope you have a wonderful new year, and I'll see you on January 19th for a very special series. Thanks again.
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