Shonda Rhimes: Women Need To Brag More

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Shonda Rhimes. Shonda discusses being the most powerful woman in TV, why she thinks women should brag more, and the importance of complex female characters. She also opens up about her views on marriage, all things Greys, her favorite Shondaland moments, and how she learned to say yes. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:43Alex Cooper?

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• 1:27Alex Cooper?

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• 2:10Alex Cooper?

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• 2:57Alex Cooper?

  What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 3:06Alex Cooper?

  We're ready.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  All right. Everybody is so excited that I'm doing it. Like, I've never had a reaction like this.

• 3:11Alex Cooper?

  Stop.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  No. When I'm telling people I'm doing it, the reaction that I've gotten has been like, nobody gives a crap about anybody else. It's fascinating.

• 3:20Alex Cooper?

  Well, I feel the same way about you. So the vibes are great, Shonda. The fact that you're like, everyone's excited for you to be on Call Her Daddy. I'm like, well, my whole team is so excited for you to be here. So it's a perfect mashup. Thank you for being here. Shonda Rhimes, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Excited to be here.

• 3:33Alex Cooper?

  Okay. How are you doing this morning?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  I'm good. I'm good. Yeah.

• 3:37Alex Cooper?

  You're here for?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  I'm here for, you know, I'm here for my book, Year of Yes, the 10th Anniversary Edition, but I'm also here because today is the 450th celebration for the 450th episode of Grey's Anatomy.

• 3:48Alex Cooper?

  Can you believe that?

• 3:49Speaker 01

  No. Like, 450 episodes feels insane to me.

• 3:54Alex Cooper?

  It feels insane, but also it feels right.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  It's just so strange because now it's been, it's been so many years. Like, it's such a part of my life, like the fabric of my life, whereas it made such a huge difference. Like, Like, I still think about the times like when we first started, like I'm still there in my head.

• 4:11Alex Cooper?

  I'm still there. I think we're all still there. I'm still at season one. Like, I'm at the LVAD wire. I'm at, I'm at George's death. Like, I'm still in that.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  In the early.

• 4:21Alex Cooper?

  Yes, initial intern era. Um, we're gonna get to all that. We have so much to get through. Also, you moved to Connecticut, right?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yes, I did.

• 4:29Alex Cooper?

  During the pandemic?

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:31Alex Cooper?

  How are you feeling being back in LA versus Connecticut life? How do we feel?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  You know what? I love living in Connecticut. And it's really interesting. Like, I lived in LA for almost 30 years, right? From the very beginning of my career, from film school on. I do not miss it at all.

• 4:46Alex Cooper?

  It's fair.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Like, and I'm shocked by that. I miss my friends. I miss, but I do not miss it.

• 4:51Alex Cooper?

  You've made friends in Connecticut, though?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I've made friends in Connecticut. It's just a very different vibe. Nobody's in the business. Nobody cares.

• 4:58Alex Cooper?

  So you can like go to the grocery store and people are like.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I cried. Like, I, I, I went to Costco and I got a Costco card and I cried in the parking lot.

• 5:04Alex Cooper?

  Why?

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Because it's like the first time I was ever able to do anything that felt like that normal.

• 5:09Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God, you're fully going to Costco every day being like, does anyone notice me? Nope. Perfect. Check.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  In LA, I can give everybody a job. Like, it's not just that people knew who I was, but I'm a person who could hire an actor, an executive, a director. Like, I could give anybody a job. So it felt like everybody knew who I was and wanted something. Not in a mean way, but you know what I mean?

• 5:28Alex Cooper?

  No, everyone wanted something from you and.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  In Connecticut, they're like, we like your shows, but they don't know. You know what I mean?

• 5:34Alex Cooper?

  They're like, move, I'm trying to get to the eggs.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 5:36Alex Cooper?

  Like, oh, that's so interesting. You kind of now have this reprieve since getting away.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  This crazy freedom, which, you know, I, like, talking to Ellen Pompeo, it's different for her. Like, in LA, she gets to be like more invisible because everyone's used to actors. When she goes out into the world, it's totally different.

• 5:51Alex Cooper?

  Oh, that's so interesting. I didn't even think about that.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:54Alex Cooper?

  You're right, though, because when you see an actor at a restaurant, you're like, oh, that's cool.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:58Alex Cooper?

  But you see Shonda Rhimes, you're like, I'm about to pitch my life.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Somebody comes and says, there's a lot of that. And there's a lot of waiters who are like. I'm an actor, I'm a script, you know, and I love, bless their hearts.

• 6:09Alex Cooper?

  Of course.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? But I was like, I can't.

• 6:10Alex Cooper?

  You're like, I'm just trying to eat the bread.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I started to become a recluse. Like, I stopped leaving my home.

• 6:14Alex Cooper?

  Okay, and that's not healthy.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was not healthy at all.

• 6:17Alex Cooper?

  You need to go to Costco.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:18Alex Cooper?

  Um, I am so excited to sit down with you because obviously so many of your shows are my favorite shows, but you are the most influential showrunner in Hollywood. It is such an honor to sit with you. You have some of the biggest television shows that will go down in history as the best forever. I will re-watch them forever. They're timeless. But when I was starting to research you, I didn't realize that you wrote one of my favorite movies, which is The Princess Diaries 2.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:48Alex Cooper?

  Um, can you tell me just a little bit about what it was like working on that script and that project?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  It was so much fun. I mean, I had written like, I'd written like very few things at that point. I think I had written, um, the Halle Berry introducing Dorothy Dandridge. And I'd done, I think, I think I'd done Crossroads before that. I can't remember which one came first.

• 7:07Alex Cooper?

  Wait, you did Crossroads?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  I wrote Crossroads starring Britney Spears.

• 7:10Alex Cooper?

  Shonda, what?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Epic experience on that because I was there for the whole filming of it and every, it was a great experience.

• 7:16Alex Cooper?

  I'm, I'm like, what haven't you done? Also, the range of like Crossroads then Greys then Princess Diaries? Oh, wow. So this was after Crossroads?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  I think it was right after Crossroads.

• 7:25Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  And it was an amazing experience. It was, it was my first big like studio film. Um, the producer was a woman, you know, like it was just this really great vibe of we're making this thing. I got to write lines that Julie Andrews got to say, which feels very full circle now now that we're in Bridgerton.

• 7:44Alex Cooper?

  It's really cool.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  You know, it was really cool.

• 7:45Alex Cooper?

  The mattress scene of the sleepover.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yes. People talk about that so much.

• 7:50Alex Cooper?

  Because I think, I know, I'm like, why do, I think it's because the way that you Brought a girl's sleepover not only to life, but then you had this element that was like, I want to try this. Like, I tried it in my house.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 8:04Alex Cooper?

  And my mom was like, you have to stop.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Like, no.

• 8:07Alex Cooper?

  The mattress isn't going to fit down the basement stairs.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  It's not going to do it.

• 8:11Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  No, for me, it was Gary Marshall, who was the director, was like, he brought me into his office. And he's like epic. I mean, the man's done everything. He brought me to his office and he was like, we need a sleepover party. Like, that was what he said. Shonda, we need a sleepover party. And I was like, what? And he was like, we need this. And I had the greatest time writing it. But I've been like, what the heck is this dude talking about it? He was so right, though.

• 8:30Alex Cooper?

  How did you even come up with the mattress idea? Had you done that yourself before?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  No, no, it just sounds fun and really great. Yeah.

• 8:37Alex Cooper?

  It is really fun. Um, okay, I want to play a little game.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:40Alex Cooper?

  We're going to do Shondaland Rapid Fire.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:44Alex Cooper?

  Which character would you switch lives with for a day?

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Christina Yang.

• 8:48Alex Cooper?

  Wait, but who is she dating at that point?

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't even care who she's dating.

• 8:52Alex Cooper?

  But can I ask you, Burke or, um, Owen?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Neither. Isn't that interesting? I love, I mean, she ended up alone for a reason. Like, neither. Yeah.

• 9:02Alex Cooper?

  But do you think Burke loved her so much that he knew that Christina couldn't fully be herself with him? So he let her go?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, the beauty of Burke and like having him get to come back and like, give her that whole facility with the heart printing machines. Yeah.

• 9:17Alex Cooper?

  It's crazy. It's beautiful. Um, okay. If you're in the middle of a crisis, who would you call first?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Olivia Pope.

• 9:23Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Without question.

• 9:25Alex Cooper?

  Well, I was going to say either Meredith Grey. Let's say you're in the middle of a forest. Okay. You are bleeding to death and you accidentally killed someone. Are we calling Olivia Pope? Are we calling Annalise Keating? Are we calling Meredith?

• 9:39Speaker 01

  I'm calling Olivia Pope.

• 9:40Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Me too.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Because Olivia Pope knows how to get to everybody else. Yeah.

• 9:43Alex Cooper?

  That's true. Someone will fix you up and you'll be fine. Okay, great. Um, what is your favorite line of dialogue you've ever written?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I don't have a favorite line of dialogue. I mean, I've written so much dialogue and it's so interesting to hear it come back to me. That I know what's big for other people, but I don't know that I have a particular favorite line of dialogue.

• 10:01Alex Cooper?

  Like, when you write something like Pick Me, Choose Me, Love Me, did you have any idea? Or you're just like, writing one day and you're like, huh?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  You have to remember, like, for me, Grey's Anatomy was my very first television show. I was learning to write TV while writing that show. So I wasn't thinking like, this is gonna be an iconic moment. I literally was just writing something I really wanted to watch.

• 10:22Alex Cooper?

  Shonda, I am obsessed with you being like, it was like my first go at it. Meanwhile, it's like, wait, it's perfection to a T.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Which I love that people responded to that.

• 10:31Alex Cooper?

  You crushed. Okay, what's been the most romantic Bridgerton moment, in your opinion?

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I burned for you. Season one, The Duke.

• 10:39Alex Cooper?

  So good.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:41Alex Cooper?

  Would you rather intern at Seattle Grace or Olivia Pope and Associates?

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Seattle Grace.

• 10:47Alex Cooper?

  Okay, good answer. What is an illness you were convinced you had after writing about it for Grace?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. There's so many. There's literally so many.

• 10:57Alex Cooper?

  Did you become a little bit of a hypochondriac?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  You become a terrible hypochondriac. Worse than that, I became somebody who became convinced that I could, like, solve people's medical emergencies.

• 11:04Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  I was like, there were pregnant women in my writers' room and I'd be like, if you need a C-section, I got you. Can you put you on the table? We got it done. People were like, stop it.

• 11:12Alex Cooper?

  You're like, I am a doctor.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  I still believe I could do an appendectomy, beginning to end. Still believe that right now.

• 11:18Alex Cooper?

  I think we all kind of, though, thought that we were doctors by the end. I was like, I kind of know what's going on. Um, that's really interesting. I didn't even think about that. With the hiccups also.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:28Alex Cooper?

  Shonda, you fucked me up. When that happened, I was like, she died from hiccups. And then every time I hiccup, now I think of you. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's the truth. Um, okay, what is something you took from one of the sets?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  I might get in trouble for this.

• 11:45Alex Cooper?

  It's okay.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  But I took the the Resolute Desk that like the John F Kennedy Resolute Desk that Fitz has. I have that. I've taken a lot of things.

• 11:54Alex Cooper?

  Wait, wait, wait. How did you get a desk out of there with no one noticing? You're just like carrying it.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  I took a lot of things.

• 12:02Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God. We that's.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:04Alex Cooper?

  That's iconic.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  There's a lot of things I've taken and I'm sure like one day someone's going to be upset about it, but I could probably have a museum. I've taken stuff that means something to me.

• 12:11Alex Cooper?

  Wait, do you use the desk or it's just in storage?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  No, that's in storage. For a long time, I really wanted to use it and everyone's like, Shonda, like, not quite. So it's in storage.

• 12:19Alex Cooper?

  Oh, man, maybe you'll pull it out one day and like right there.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 12:21Alex Cooper?

  This is going to give me some inspo. Um, okay. Which actor are you the closest friends with today?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting. Scott Foley, who plays Jake Ballard.

• 12:33Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  And the reason is, is because he and he and I and his wife are like great friends. We live in the same town now. Like I moved to Connecticut and I kind of moved to the town they moved to, which is a stalker move, but it wasn't on purpose.

• 12:47Alex Cooper?

  He's like, Shonda.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:48Alex Cooper?

  He's like, you want to put me in another show?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  So our kids are friends. We're friends. Marika and I are like golf buddies. We learned how to golf together. So.

• 12:54Alex Cooper?

  Jake Ballard.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 12:57Alex Cooper?

  He was like supposed, like it made sense and it didn't make sense with Olivia. It was always Fitz.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:03Alex Cooper?

  But he wanted her and it makes me sad. But Fitz and her were just.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:06Alex Cooper?

  The fact that you had us rooting for an affair. Shonda.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  I'm very proud of that. I mean, in a terrible way, I'm proud of it because that's what you wanted. I wanted people to go on the journey that Olivia went on.

• 13:16Alex Cooper?

  I would be smiling that I'm like, stop it. What am I doing?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  This is wrong.

• 13:19Alex Cooper?

  Poor Melly, meanwhile.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:21Alex Cooper?

  They weren't meant to be together anyways. Fitz and Melly were not right.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 13:24Alex Cooper?

  Okay, when you were younger, let's go all the way back.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:27Alex Cooper?

  Did you know you wanted to be a writer? Was there anything else you were passionate about overwriting?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  I don't know that I knew I wanted to be a writer, but like from the time I was little, I was making up stories into a tape recorder and then trying to get my mom to type them up. But I thought like, like for a long time, I was like, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a lawyer. I want to be, you know what I mean? I wanted to be all these things, but really I didn't want to be them. I just wanted to research them and then pretend.

• 13:51Alex Cooper?

  Right. And then you wrote these characters.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:53Alex Cooper?

  Of like who maybe you would have been one day.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  So I get to pretend to be all these things, but really like I just, in my mind, I was going to spend my whole time like in a big giant library, like reading all the books I could. Like that was my idea of like a perfect life.

• 14:05Alex Cooper?

  Do you remember one of the first stories you ever wrote?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  No, I don't. I don't remember like, like once I wrote when I was little.

• 14:13Alex Cooper?

  Right, right, right. But you were constantly writing.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  I was constantly making up stories. I wouldn't say I was constantly. I think I started like writing in earnest when I was maybe like eight.

• 14:21Alex Cooper?

  And where do you think that came from of creating stories? Were you like escaping your reality? Were you liking the creative?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  I had like a really amazing childhood. I'm the youngest of six kids and my parents are like these like very intellectual, interesting people. And so I grew up in this house of like, there was always something going on and I was the quiet one. I was the shy one. I was the weird one. Like, you know what I mean? Like I was an odd kid and I just, I don't know. I grew up, I would say I grew up in books.

• 14:50Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, one of six is interesting because it's like, I feel like the youngest can either be the loudest or the most introverted and there's kind of no in between.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  There's no in between.

• 14:57Alex Cooper?

  Like the middle child can kind of go back and forth on the day to day. The youngest is set in stone and that's, okay, that's interesting because I know I read, um, you would go into your pantry.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:07Alex Cooper?

  And you would write all of these stories.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  It wasn't even that I would, I would sit in the pantry and I'd play in there from the time I was like three or something, like really young. And I would have all these stories and worlds going on. The pantry was like a kingdom to me. My mom would open the pantry door and be like, I need to make dinner. And I'd be like, who gets to die? Like the, the cans of tomato paste, which were like the peasants, they got to die today.

• 15:26Alex Cooper?

  I think a lot of people would love to be in your brain for a day because I feel like there's so many things going on and so many brilliant stories, which thankfully you've led us into a little bit. Um, okay. So fast forward, you went to Dartmouth. When you graduated, what were you picturing for yourself?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  I was so miserable when I graduated, like, and I, I say this all the time to people who are graduating. I laid on the floor of my dorm room and sobbed while my mother packed, packed my room because I was like, I'm not leaving. I don't know what to do. Like I was so lost.

• 15:53Alex Cooper?

  Was it more that you loved college life or you didn't know what was next?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  I loved college life. I was thriving there, but I also had no idea what was next. Like I didn't have a job coming out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew like, I kept telling people like, I want to be Toni Morrison, but you can't just be Toni Morrison. And so I was lost.

• 16:13Alex Cooper?

  That's so interesting because. A lot of the questions I have today, I think, will hopefully allow young women watching to feel how relatable your story can be for them of like not knowing where you were at that point. And it's so relatable to like, it's so annoying when you have that friend that's like, I've got the job out of college. Bye, guys.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  I know exactly what I'm doing.

• 16:35Alex Cooper?

  I have nothing. I was the same way. I was so lost. I was like, I don't even know what to do. And then I took a job that I didn't love because I was like, I need to pay the bills and I need to pay rent. Like, what else am I gonna do?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Which is important. It's what you're supposed to do, really. Like, I always say, do something until you can do something else. Like, I moved and I lived in my sister's basement in the suburbs of San Francisco.

• 16:52Alex Cooper?

  And what did you do?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  And I got a job working at an advertising agency.

• 16:55Alex Cooper?

  How did that go?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  I was the receptionist. And then I was like a little account person who was like billing people for the ads. And then there was one day when they asked everybody at the company, they were doing like a test commercial for Barbie. And they asked everybody to write like, an experience of Barbie and share it with them if they had one. And I wrote this essay about my Barbie and how Ken was useless and she used to stuff her shoes in Ken's head. And like, she traveled everywhere and lived the best life. And they picked my essay and they made it the test commercial. They didn't get the account, but like, I got to go and like, do the voiceover of this test commercial that they made, based on an essay I wrote. And that was the moment I was like, okay, I can do this.

• 17:31Alex Cooper?

  I gotta get out of here.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:32Alex Cooper?

  No more advertising.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  No more advertising.

• 17:34Alex Cooper?

  That's pretty incredible, that you were in a job that maybe you weren't as fulfilled in, but then there was a sliver of your passion that you were able to grab on to. And then it reminded you like, oh, I gotta go for it.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  And it's important to have those moments because, you know, when you're working in those jobs and you're doing like the grunt thing, you're invisible. Like, nobody's thinking that you're smart. Nobody wants to hear your ideas. Nobody's looking to you. Like, you're invisible.

• 17:57Alex Cooper?

  That's a good point.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  And it's a really soul-crushing feeling. I remember that being like a soul-crushing feeling. But you have to remember that, like, your time is coming.

• 18:04Alex Cooper?

  It's so true. And it's also like, paying your dues of everyone's, most people are gonna have those jobs. You're like, why am I here? Why am I here? Why am I here? But most of it leads you to then having even more strength to be like, I have to find what I love because I can't do this forever. And it almost propels you forward in a way that maybe had you gotten something that was kind of cool and you kind of liked, you would have just been like, this is pretty cool. So if you're in the shitter right now, trust us, it's going to go up from here.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  It's going to get better. But I agree with you. Like, I feel like I, then I went to film school and I got out of film school and I got a job like working at a place for the mentally ill and housed. It was a terrible job for me. Like, I was not fit for the job. But what it meant was that every night I went home and I was like, if I don't write, then I'm not doing anything. So I wrote like crazy and sort of wrote my way out of that situation.

• 18:54Alex Cooper?

  Can you just kind of to summarize that? Because I do think this is such a big theme for people is like, a lot of people feel lost, what we're talking about with their careers. Do you have to pinpoint that? Like, any advice for someone who is literally listening to this right now, being like, Shonda, I am going through it in my 20s. I can't find myself. What do I do? Any advice?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  You know what I always feel like is now is the time, if there's something you've always wanted to try to do, there's some dream you have, that is the time to do it. Like, I always tell people, like, you're never going to be as willing to be as broke and poor as you are right now. So like, 10 years from now, when you've been working in that, like, human resources job, you're not going to go, like, I'm going to dump all this and now go be broke. Because now I have, like, a bigger rent to pay, maybe I have a kid. Like, do it then, when you can be broke and it's just you trying to make your dream come true.

• 19:43Alex Cooper?

  Everyone after this episode quits their job. They're like, woo, Shonda told me. It's really good advice, though. You're right. There is no going back after that. So just do it now.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  It never gets easier. It never gets easier. So just jump.

• 19:54Alex Cooper?

  Okay. You mentioned Greys was like, really the first thing you worked on, which is insane and incredible. You're in your early 30s when this happened. Okay. Talk to me about how you came up with the idea, all the pieces that got you there.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  So I want to say to people, like, it wasn't the very first thing I ever did. It's not like I'd written some movies.

• 20:14Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  And so I'd been working in the industry, but in a, like, a very, like, journeyman kind of way. And I became a mom.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  And so Harper, who is as old as the show, was born and I realized, like I was, I did that thing where I had a kid way before anybody else did. Nine 11 made me go like, I really want to be a mom. So nine months and two days after nine 11 Harper was born. Yeah. So I had this kid at 32 and none of my friends had kids and you never leave the house again. Once you have a baby, obviously. But that's, I started watching television and like, I was watching like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and 24 and all these shows and going, that's where the real character development is. You know, like you could follow a character and like really grow them and change them and make them interesting. Whereas in a movie, you got two hours, that's it. Right? And so I got excited about that. And I remember saying to my agents, like, I want to write TV.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  And them being a little bit horrified because at that point, TV was not considered sexy at all. So I was like determined and I went and did it. And the year that Greys came out, it was the same year Lost and Desperate Housewives came out, which is when television sort of exploded.

• 21:23Alex Cooper?

  And the idea for Greys, talk to me about how that came to be.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  So the first, I, I wrote a pilot one year, like the very first year I made the effort to like, go through the, like it's called television development season. I went through development season and I wrote a show about war correspondence, which was like four women who were like super competitive and covered wars. And I was like, I loved it, but we were kind of at war and it was considered in poor taste. Which was fine. So the next year they were like, well, do you want to try another development season again? And I was like, I was at ABC and I was like, what does Bob Iger want? He was the chairman of the company. I was like, what does he want? They're like, he wants a medical show. And I was like, one of those people who could watch like surgeries on like those like channels, the discovery channels where they'd show you like removing a tumor. Like I thought that stuff was amazing.

• 22:05Alex Cooper?

  Oh my God. Okay.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  And by the way, when I had been like thinking about leaving Hollywood, I was going to go and do a post baccalaureate year to then go to medical school. So like, I was like, this is made for me.

• 22:15Alex Cooper?

  Oh, you're like, put me in.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:16Alex Cooper?

  If, if this doesn't work out, I'm going to actually become a doctor. So why not write about it first? So you've no real true like experience that much in TV. This is your first big moment. Take me to day one writers' room. What do you remember feeling?

• 22:32Speaker 01

  You know, it was so exciting to me. Like, I mean, even like, so you write this pilot, they're saying they're going to shoot this pilot. They shoot, they get ready to shoot the pilot. You've written like interior operating room day. And then you go to a stage where they have built you an, an operating room, like. They literally built me this two-story operating room with a gallery up top that everybody remembers from Grey's.

• 22:51Alex Cooper?

  So gorgeous.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  I played in that thing for like a whole day, like yelling like clear and like pretending to do surgeries. Like I played the whole day because it's like the most amazing playground. So to me, it didn't feel like work. It was really fun. I was terrified because what happens in television is the writer is in charge. So I'm this very shy person who's very introverted, who probably could never even been on your podcast back then, who suddenly had like 300 people looking at me and being like, what do we do, boss?

• 23:18Alex Cooper?

  What is the biggest lesson that you learned early on?

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. You know what? For me, the biggest lesson I learned early on, and I think this is a lesson that everybody should know, it's don't pretend you know something that you don't know. People do that all the time. They like try because they don't know what they're doing. They try to act like they know. And then they're like very secretive or like closed off and they, can I say fuck it up? They fuck it up really badly.

• 23:41Alex Cooper?

  You can say fuck it up here. Shonda, that's actually one of the nicer things people have said in that chair. That's good. That's good. Oh, that's so, that's such good advice.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  So when you don't know something, say like, I have no idea what that is. Can someone explain it to me? Or I don't know what that is. Let's figure that out. Versus pretending that you know.

• 23:58Alex Cooper?

  Because did you have that a couple of times where you were like, I'm, I'm this?

• 24:02Speaker 01

  I was completely lost. I knew nothing, like nothing. I'd never been on a sound stage before, except to like watch something else be filmed. And now I was like in charge of like the editors and the music and I didn't know anything. And so instead of pretending that I did and like making huge mistakes, I just was like, this is like another college. I'm going to learn everything I can.

• 24:38Alex Cooper?

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• 25:22Alex Cooper?

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• 27:22Alex Cooper?

  Talk to me about the casting process.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:24Alex Cooper?

  How involved were you?

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Very involved.

• 27:27Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Who was the first person, like, big, main cast that you casted?

• 27:31Speaker 01

  I'm not sure who was the first person. I remember, like, everybody coming in to read. And I remember T R Knight being like, one of the very first people to come in to read for a role. And us being like, we love him immediately. Like, I remember that really, really clearly.

• 27:45Alex Cooper?

  Do you remember Meredith Grey moment?

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Oh, well, so that was even better. Meredith, Ellen never came in to read.

• 27:51Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  And I don't think we ever read any, any Meredith Grays. I remember saying to people, she had done this movie called Moonlight Mile. And I remember saying to people, like, I'm looking for somebody who feels like that girl in Moonlight Mile. I want somebody who feels like that girl. And I kept saying it. And finally, someone was like, I think you might be able to have that girl from Moonlight Mile.

• 28:10Alex Cooper?

  You're like, what a concept.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh. So then Ellen and I had, like, lunch at, like, Barney's, I think it was. And we, like, hit it off. It was kind of perfect. I was like, I get her, she gets me.

• 28:22Alex Cooper?

  And you just knew.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was easy.

• 28:24Alex Cooper?

  Talk to me about Sandra Oh.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Sandra was really interesting because Sandra came in to read for the part of Dr. Bailey. Yeah.

• 28:33Alex Cooper?

  Wait, I didn't know that.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, she came in to read for the part of Dr. Bailey.

• 28:36Alex Cooper?

  Whoa.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  And, you know, she had, you know, established actor. She had done, but hadn't, we hadn't seen, um, oh, the movie about the wine.

• 28:45Alex Cooper?

  I know what you're talking about, but yeah, yeah.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  She had done a bunch of movies and stuff. So Sandra came in and, um, read the part of Dr. Bailey, like, blew it out of the water, like, did like that, like, first monologue that Dr. Bailey does. And we were all like, oh, my God. And everybody was like, okay, she's Dr. Bailey. And I was like, no, she's Christina. And I just knew it. Like, I don't know how I knew it, but I knew it.

• 29:05Alex Cooper?

  And you obviously love that character so much, as we all do. I think something about Christina Yang that changed, I think, a lot of our, I mean, it changed my life in terms of watching a woman be so intense about her craft.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:20Alex Cooper?

  And

• 29:22Alex Cooper?

  Also be really rigid, but loving, but it's she's so complicated and she's so fierce, but she's so soft, like the moment she cries. And I wonder, like, was she one of the hardest ones to write for or the easiest?

• 29:36Speaker 01

  No, I related to that character so much. And here's what's crazy about Greys, that for those first couple of seasons, it did not feel hard at all. Nothing about it felt hard. I love, like, I was, I'd made up a world and I was getting to play in it every week. And so I would be like acting on all the parts in my office, like being really loud and crying when the characters cried and all that stuff. But I was having the time of my life. Like, it was, it wasn't hard to write them. They were there.

• 30:06Alex Cooper?

  They were. Okay. What storyline was the hardest emotionally for you to write?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Denny Duquette, Killing Denny. And only because there were other ones that were just as hard later, like when George dies.

• 30:18Alex Cooper?

  Of course.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  But because that was the first real emotional one, like, I remember, like, he died on set, like, we'd filmed the scene and I went back to the writers' room and sobbed like a baby for like an hour. It was too, like, I'd made that show, like, so much of my life. It was, like, too real for me.

• 30:33Alex Cooper?

  I think I lost a part of my life when that happened, the LVAD, and we're all crying. And I was like, it was one of the most beautiful moments in television and the saddest moments. And I just, and then that was the season finale, right?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  I think that was the season, yeah, it was the season finale.

• 30:47Alex Cooper?

  Cause then Meredith is standing there and Derek and Finn.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:53Alex Cooper?

  Or was it Finn? Oh, my God. And she had just slept with him and the whole thing. Oh, my God. And they're all in the gowns. Shonda, you, you took us for a ride there.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that.

• 31:01Alex Cooper?

  Um, what storyline pissed the audience off the most, do you think?

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting. What storyline on Greys?

• 31:08Alex Cooper?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Wow. Maybe Dead Denny coming back to life.

• 31:13Alex Cooper?

  We, uh, we got to talk.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that may, that upset a lot of people.

• 31:17Alex Cooper?

  What were you thinking?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  I think I was grieving.

• 31:19Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  I was just grieving Denny.

• 31:22Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, I just wanted to see him on our screen.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  I just loved him so much and I loved working with him. And I think I was just grieving.

• 31:28Alex Cooper?

  Well, to be fair, the scenes, obviously, when she goes back because Meredith is dying and then she goes back and she's seeing her mother in that moment, and then Denny shows up and the bomb squad guy and you're like.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  What's happening? Yeah.

• 31:38Alex Cooper?

  Okay, I did love that episode, though, because the whole thing. Okay, which character's death hit you the hardest?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Probably George's. I mean, George was really.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  That character is so beloved. Tiara is such a lovely guy. That was such a hard thing to do. He was so, Tiara was so amazing because there was no, he like, he didn't need to lay on that table, but he was like, I'm gonna do the role, even though you're never gonna see my face, the whole nine years. He was wonderful.

• 32:06Alex Cooper?

  The 007 in the palm?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  007 in the palm.

• 32:08Alex Cooper?

  You really wanted us to actually like have like snot coming out of our noses.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  I, I mean, it, it broke me, so I knew that the audience would respond to it, but I really loved it. And yeah.

• 32:19Alex Cooper?

  I also think one that kind of always left me a little unsettled was McSteamy and Lexi. I just felt like they had, I don't know, I want, I, I was like, oh my God, after that plane crash, you're like, I actually feel like they would have worked weirdly. Like towards the end, I was rooting for them and they were actually getting really cute. And then they were gone. Thanks, Shonda.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  I have to say, like, I recently, because like, I haven't watched the show, you have to think about that, I haven't really watched the show. So I recently went back and I started like watching select pieces of episodes. I watched that episode and I was horrified. I was like, oh my God, this is like a freaking snuff film. Like, what the heck?

• 33:00Alex Cooper?

  I know. Thanks.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  But in it, but during the time when I'm doing it, like, I'm, I'm inside the story. And I always think my job is to be keeper of the story, not keeper of the actors, not keeper of the show, not keeper of the fans. Like, my whole job is to just be true to the story. That was the story. But I watch it back now and I was like, I can't believe that, like, that actually happened and that people survived watching that. That was horrifying.

• 33:21Alex Cooper?

  We didn't. We're still there. We're still at the plane, okay? Um, you have said that you cannot be what you cannot see.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:29Alex Cooper?

  How have you embodied this through your shows?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a really wonderful question. I mean, I feel like we really show a vast array of different kinds of women, different kinds of people, different kinds of viewpoints. And it's not like a very purposeful thing where I'm like, we're gonna check this box or check this box. I like to explore all these things. And I do think that as somebody who grew up, maybe not ever really seeing herself. It's just never occurred to me that like, we're gonna make a show that doesn't include me, that doesn't include, you know, a perspective that maybe might be considered an outside perspective.

• 34:06Alex Cooper?

  Can you talk a little bit more about that of like, not seeing yourself when you were younger?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  I mean, when you grow up and you're watching television, I mean, the default, and not just the default for women of color, but the default for women was like, characters played either, they were either like, sort of the vampy slutty character, or they were like, the mom, the very, or they were like, the sidekick, like, the, the smart quirky, like, secretary.

• 34:29Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, there was such a lack of complexity to women, film and TV, that, I mean, I think you now hear all these young girls talk about like, Disney and what it taught us as like, you find the guy, and then life is good, and it's like, now we've said that a lot of times, but when you really get underneath the ethos of that, it's like, there is such a core, established feeling from a young age where you're watching these magical things, but that one storyline, you're kind of telling yourself that needs to be for you.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:00Alex Cooper?

  So the characters you've brought to life, like, that's why I love Christina Yang so much, because I also relate to her, where I'm like, I'm such a workaholic, I love my job, I'm intense, I'm all the things, interesting. Um, can we talk about Olivia Pope?

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 35:13Alex Cooper?

  Who, I mean, one of the most iconic characters of all time, um, talk to me about your inspiration behind her.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Um, well, first of all, you know, there's a woman named Judy Smith, who literally is, was a DC fixer. She worked with Monica Lewinsky, she worked with lots of different people, she worked in the Bush, the first Bush White House, and she is this DC fixer. And Betsy Beers, who's my producing partner, brought her to meet me. And I remember thinking, like, I already have two shows, I'm super busy, I don't have time for this. And Judy Smith and I sat down to talk about, like, what she did for a living, like, that's basically it. And four hours later, I was like, oh my God, I can write hundreds of episodes of this show.

• 35:52Alex Cooper?

  Wow. So it is truly based on a real woman?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  It's based on a real woman's job. Like, Olivia Pope is not Judy Smith, obviously, in all fairness to the president, all that.

• 36:01Alex Cooper?

  Of course.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  But it was based on a real woman's job, and that job was so appealing to me, you know, like, after, like, we had a lot of drama on Greys, and a lot, you know, behind-the-scenes drama on Greys, like, the idea of somebody who knew how to fix things like that, who knew how to manage crises and solve problems like that, I, we were fascinated by her.

• 36:18Alex Cooper?

  Oh, and it's so-

• 36:21Alex Cooper?

  Intense and sexy and fun, but gut wrenching. And her confidence, the way that woman walks into a scene. I mean, also, it's crazy. Did you know that all, a lot of the shows that you are known for, these leading women have these iconic walks?

• 36:37Speaker 01

  I know, isn't that funny?

• 36:38Alex Cooper?

  And Elise, um, obviously Meredith Grey walking in. Um, and then we have, yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Olivia.

• 36:45Alex Cooper?

  Olivia.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  These walks, yeah, it's funny. Like, I don't know what that's about, but yeah.

• 36:49Alex Cooper?

  It's kind of iconic. Um, was there ever a time where the network did push back on one of the stories that you were writing for these women?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. They pushed back on Olivia Pope having an abortion. Big time.

• 37:03Alex Cooper?

  And they didn't push back when Christina?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  So here's what's interesting. I think when, the first time Christina Yang becomes pregnant on the show, which I think is at the end of season one.

• 37:16Alex Cooper?

  One, yep.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  In near that place, that, that was supposed to be Christina Yang getting an abortion. And the network didn't tell me I couldn't do it, but they did come to me with like all of their concerns. And I got scared. And so she had an ectopic pregnancy instead. Isn't that interesting? And then when I was, like, when we were doing Olivia Pope, I knew what I was doing. And I was like, this feels so right for this character. It's not even a question for me.

• 37:44Alex Cooper?

  That's, I mean, again, you're writing things that women are living and breathing every day. And the complexity of these choices that women have to make for themselves and their bodies. And then it is so crazy that then you're in the position where you're like answering to networks. Where it's like, I mean, I, how do you think writing about Olivia Pope's abortion, what did that effect have on people?

• 38:07Speaker 01

  I mean, I think one of the things that we did was I wanted it to be that somebody you knew, admired, loved. Because when you spend an hour a week with my characters, a lot of times you're spending more time with those people than you are with people in your own lives in a more intimate way. I wanted people that somebody knew and loved to be going through this and for it not to be like the abortion episode. Do you know what I mean?

• 38:29Alex Cooper?

  Such a good point, right?

• 38:30Speaker 01

  That was the Christmas episode, actually.

• 38:32Alex Cooper?

  Wait, I forgot.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  It's the Christmas episode.

• 38:34Alex Cooper?

  The juxtaposition?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a very interesting episode, but the network, um, and probably, well, they can't, I can't get in trouble now, but the network had like a problem with it. They were like, you can't, they wanted to edit it down and they wanted to be like, you can't show it. But I had learned something earlier, which, which I learned with the sex scenes was, you know, they would say to me like, we're worried about this Fitz and Olivia sex scene. And I'd be like, but I shot it shot for shot, like the Meredith and Derek sex scene from Grey's. So it's not, it's not the scene, it's the people having the sex. And then we did it again with How to Go with Murder. It'd be like two men and they'd have a problem. I'm like, but we shot it shot for shot. So it's not the scene, it's the people. So when we did the abortion, if you know, noticed earlier in like two seasons earlier, three seasons earlier, Olivia stands with a soldier while she has her abortion. She holds her hand while

• 39:20Speaker 01

  she has an abortion. It's the same scene. And the network was like, you can't show this, blah, blah. And I was like, but we already did, like here it is right here.

• 39:29Alex Cooper?

  That's so interesting that it's all character based.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  It really is. And when you think about it, it is, it's emotional. Like they're not, like what they're wanting to say is that technically it's this or this or this, but it's not really that. It's, it's how they feel the audience is going to react to that particular person or that particular couple.

• 39:48Alex Cooper?

  It's like, no, we've already had one of these on the show. And they're like, wait, where?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  But with all the same sounds, with all the same equipment, like they wanted us to remove like some of the sound from the abortion machine. They, like all of these things.

• 40:00Alex Cooper?

  And meanwhile, it was like one of the most real, honest scenes that you could have given to women.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  And what I thought was important was is that people kept being like, it's going to be like a big deal when Fitz finds out. I was like, that is not the story. That is not like, this is not about him.

• 40:15Alex Cooper?

  Period.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:16Alex Cooper?

  Um, you said for the first 10 years of Grey's, you were worried it was all gonna go away one day.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:24Alex Cooper?

  Talk to me about how you overcame that fear.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I don't know. I feel like, and I, I talk about this in the, in the new chapter of the book. I don't think I ever felt, and I know this, I did not feel like my career was settled or like that I could relax until the day that I was sitting in this theater, being inducted into the Television Academy Hall of Fame by Oprah Winfrey, which sounds crazy. That was like 2016 or something. I, and in that moment, I remember like holding my daughter's hand and looking at her and going like, we made it. Like, and really for the first time feeling like that. Like, up until then, I was like, they could take this away at any time. I could be fired at any time. The audience could turn their back at any time. Like, I could be a has been at any minute.

• 41:09Alex Cooper?

  Damn.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:11Alex Cooper?

  Isn't that crazy, though, when you look back at that? Like, what do you wish you could have told yourself? Because obviously, although they could have, the success was, the writing was on the wall.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  It was undeniable.

• 41:20Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  You know what? For now, now I look back and I, I almost don't want to tell myself anything. I, I do wish I had enjoyed all the moments more, like revelled in them. But if I had, like, would there have been a private practice? Would there have been a scandal? Would I have been like, I want to own an entire night of television? I was so busy, like, being like, I gotta get a second job, just in case the first job goes away, that it never occurred to me.

• 41:42Alex Cooper?

  That's a good point. I agree. I, there's almost sometimes you look back and you're like, what would I would have, what should I have told myself? But the grit and the tenacity and you pushing yourself to the extreme. Maybe there was a beautiful element of that instability that you felt that actually kind of didn't exist, but you felt it.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  But it was important. But it pushed me. Like, would Grey's have gone past three or four seasons? Because every year I was like, we have to reinvent this show from the ground up. It's gotta be original. The stories have to be the best stories we've ever told. Every season, I was pushing that way. Not because I just loved it, because I was like, if this ends, like, I'm qualified for nothing other than making stuff up.

• 42:19Alex Cooper?

  Shonda. Uh, yeah, for making stuff up. Stop it. Stop it. Um, you just referenced, 2014, you became responsible for an entire lineup of primetime TV. Okay. Talk to me about the pressure you were under when you got that slot. Like, what do you remember feeling at that time?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I remember most them talking about the lineup. But I remember, what I remember most is like sitting in a hotel room before the television up fronts. They were still negotiating my contract that I was supposed to go on stage like the next day. And there were like guys standing outside the room with like papers and like, I remember feeling like this feels crazy. And so I, it was all about like this like contract deal that I wasn't, um, that I wasn't bending on and my team was really great on, but I wasn't really feeling like what was happening. And then we have this moment where like I walk out on stage with Viola Davis and it's like in slow motion in my head. And inside that moment, because that's what happens to me. It's never like I realize it's happening beforehand.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Inside that moment, as it's happening, I was like, holy crap. Like we have all of Thursday night. Like it happened in that moment.

• 43:30Alex Cooper?

  That's also crazy too, because it's the things that obviously the consumers and the viewers don't get to see is you're like, I'm so happy you're all excited for Thursday. My contract's not even done. Like what?

• 43:42Speaker 01

  It was like, I'm not walking out on stage until it's done. So that was what was going on. It was great. I mean, I learned a lot about being a businesswoman, like doing this job in a way that I don't think I ever expected.

• 43:53Alex Cooper?

  Oh, I can't even imagine. I'm going from being a writer, starting on movies, going to TV, creating your own production company, owning this, the biggest night in television. It's like, it forces you. And I think as a woman, I've had experiences where I'm finding that most people don't kind of want you to learn the ropes as much because then it's easier to navigate around you. Like you are this creative talent, but also if you continue to learn more about the industry, you're kind of a threat because then you can push your weight around.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:28Alex Cooper?

  And people don't like that.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Well, I think the thing that's most important is what they don't want you to realize is how much power you have. I always say power's not power if you don't know you have it. And I've known lots of women who I'm like, you have so much power, but you believe that you're powerless. So like, everybody else is controlling you. The minute you realize that like, I was like, oh, they can't actually make these shows without me. Yeah, I, I mean, even with Grey's, I was naive enough to be like, I'm the only person who knows what happens. So they can't fire me. So I acted like someone who couldn't be fired.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  But I think those things are important, like to understand that.

• 45:00Alex Cooper?

  It is so important and it's like educating yourself in the moments of, and I'm sure you've had this, where you are so good at something, but you can become better at that thing when you start to really listen to people around you and observing and you're seeing, like again, starting a production company, you're like, that wasn't your full background.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 45:20Alex Cooper?

  But I'm assuming, and I probably know, but like it has helped you so much then continue to have autonomy and control in huge moments that when you're doing these negotiations, you're like, and my production company is going to be the one that is working on the show and I'm going to write it. And so you have more control.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Right. You learn and grow. And by the way, like I always think people are like, oh, you know, you're this leader. I was terrible at being a leader when I started, but you have to look at it like, I mean, I was shy and confused and didn't understand, but you have to look at it like from the point of view of this is a skill I need to learn in order to keep doing what I'm doing and to get better at it. So instead of just approaching it like, well, this is how I lead. I was like, so now I've got to figure out how to be really great at this.

• 46:01Alex Cooper?

  That's really good advice. I'm taking that because I, I feel like when I started, I was just a creative and then I started a production company in my company and I was, would always share with people, like, I know that I'm so creative and I want to just put my head into the creative that I'm, oh, I have to tell people what they're doing every day and leading and it wasn't natural to me.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  It's not natural.

• 46:26Alex Cooper?

  Right. It was very like, wait, can someone else do this? I'm like, no, because I know where I want to head the direction, but it kind of felt foreign for a while. But then you just get the reps and you acknowledge, I know I'm not the best at this.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Once again, you say what you don't know how to do. And then you make an effort to like learn as much as you can and to surround yourself with people who really know what they're doing.

• 46:44Alex Cooper?

  And I think people respect that though, probably Shonda, of you being like, in those beginning days, recognizing your strengths and your weaknesses. I think the worst thing is when a leader is just like blindly saying like, I'm leading the path. And you're like, everyone's like, we, we actually have a better idea. Can you listen to us?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  And people don't respect you. I think that's very clear. People can see that A, that you're, you know, the emperor has no clothes and they don't respect you. Like be honest and say like, I don't know enough about this. It's not going to take your power away. Not if you're good at what you do.

• 47:12Alex Cooper?

  And again, I think as a woman, sometimes we can think that it's better to fake it because it's like, oh, my God, I'm just happy to even be here. But again, grounding yourself in, no, no, no, you're there for a reason.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:25Alex Cooper?

  Everyone knows your strengths. It's OK if you show some of your weaknesses because then people are going to want to rise to the occasion for you in that way.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  And I want the caution, though, to be, because, you know, usually they say, like, men will say they can do any job and take it, and women will be like, I'm not qualified. It's not that. It's not that you're not qualified. I think you need to be very comfortable with, like, who you are in your power, but also be enough of a leader to say, like, I can lead this, I can handle this, but I need someone to explain to me what this piece is. Versus, like, I'm not qualified, so maybe somebody else should take over. That's not the point.

• 47:54Alex Cooper?

  No, I'm going to do it.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:55Alex Cooper?

  Just help me get there.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:58Alex Cooper?

  When you are at the top of your industry, people obviously expect perfection. How does that, and how did that impact your creative process?

• 48:10Speaker 01

  That's interesting. I think in the beginning, I was really, I mean, I was really lucky. Like, we were just, you know, it was hit after hit after hit. And so that was great. When we started moving into producing shows that other people wrote, it wasn't as simple as that. You know what I mean? Like, our shows didn't necessarily all take off the way, you know, How to Go with Murder, which was created by Pete Nowak and we produced, took off. It wasn't like that. I was still really comfortable with, and I was, I have, like, this basketball player's arrogance. I was always really comfortable with the shows that I created being fine and taking off and being good. But you want the other shows that you're doing to do as well, and you want to be able to give other people that opportunity. So to me, it's really just, it was about, like, figuring out how to sustain that and get better at it and be supportive about it. So every time something didn't work, we really

• 48:55Speaker 01

  tried, my producing partner, Betsy, and I, we really tried to learn, like, why and what was going on with that and how to make it better.

• 49:00Alex Cooper?

  I want to know a little bit more about your creative writing process. Where do you typically start?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  In terms of story?

• 49:07Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Oh, that's

• 49:08Alex Cooper?

  Or, or does, does story come first, or does, was character come first?

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's a line of dialogue. Like, sometimes I'll have, like, a line of dialogue in my head.

• 49:16Alex Cooper?

  Like, give me an example.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  It's like it's handled. Like it's handled was in my head before I knew what the show really was. You know, like it's those kinds of things for scandal. So sometimes it's that, sometimes, and you know, yes, I've met somebody, I'll have an idea in an area, but you can say like, I want to write a medical show and that's 15,000 different kinds of shows.

• 49:38Alex Cooper?

  For sure.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  So it's what makes this the specific show that you're writing. So sometimes it's a line of dialogue. Sometimes it's a character. For me, there was something about the intern life of like Meredith Grey and those guys being brand new at what they were doing. And also being women in a field that was dominated by men that felt really interesting to me. And I remember like what sealed the show for me was I met a medical resident who told me that it's really hard to shave your legs in the bathrooms that they have, the showers that they have at the hospital. And for some reason, that like made a whole picture in my head of like what a woman's life was like trying to be a surgeon and trying to have a personal life at the same time.

• 50:15Alex Cooper?

  Oh, it's so true. And you, oh my God, the scenes that you were able to capture of the women getting ready for a date and they're like Christina's throwing her hair up and she's putting on her bra and she's like, I'm going out. And then it's like, get back in the office and you're like, oh shit. Like it was so messy, but clearly so accurate.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:33Alex Cooper?

  That's really interesting. And right now, currently in your life, where do you pull creative inspiration from?

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. You know, it's interesting. Like I was saying to somebody the other night, like literally, I think just last night, like I'm in like a a build phase, which happens. I'm either in a phase where like I'm in the middle of a story and I'm writing it and then I almost can't talk to anybody. Or I've just finished and we're about to shoot something. I'm like in that super excited phase. I'm in the build phase where I'm like gathering ideas. Like I have ideas for maybe I think three different shows in my head right now. And that's generally how it always is that I'm very excited about. And I'm juggling trying to figure out which one's going to like emerge to the surface as the, as the forefront on the first, you know, the one to do first.

• 51:11Alex Cooper?

  And are you writing all these things down? Are they just concepts in your head right now?

• 51:17Speaker 01

  So my creative process is, is different than a lot of people's, which is I never like I must never put pen to paper until I'm ready to write the draft.

• 51:27Alex Cooper?

  What if you forget?

• 51:28Speaker 01

  No, it's a lot of thinking. It's a lot of thinking. And then like I'll spend a year thinking about something and then like two days writing a script. Versus some people I know who like the script is the thing that they're working on all the way through. For me, it's the world and the idea and the getting like all the pieces in place mentally first.

• 51:45Alex Cooper?

  So you. I was about to say, because writer's block, you don't have writer's block.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  I don't believe in writer's block.

• 51:52Alex Cooper?

  Because you don't really write until you're, you don't believe in writer's block. Talk to me about that.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  I feel like people talk about writer's block, and it's one of those things that the minute you talk about it, it becomes real, right? Like, I have writer's block, and now it's like a thing. I'm like, no, there are days when you have stuff to say, and there are days when you don't. You know what I mean? And maybe there are days when you're working out problems and you're not. But I don't believe in like, writer's block, like you just can't write at all.

• 52:17Alex Cooper?

  Right, it's like, you're clearly stuck on something that you're trying to figure out. But you, girl, you're a year in, you've got this like, math equation in your head, and then two days, you're writing the whole thing.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then like, when I am stuck, I was always lucky, because I would be working on Grays, and if I got stuck on Grays, I would turn around and I'd go work on Scandal. So like, the engine, the machine, the muscle was always being exercised at all times.

• 52:55Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. As you guys know, I have basically been working double time throughout this pregnancy to bank episodes for the months that I will be on maternity leave. And a few weeks ago, it all just kind of hit me. I was like, wait, wait, wait, where did summer go? And I was talking about this with Matt, and he ended up surprising me with a little staycation. He booked this beautiful home on Airbnb in Malibu so that we could pretend like it was summer while it's still warm here in LA. The weather was perfect, the house was right on the beach, which was so relaxing and amazing. It also had just such a gorgeous kitchen. We stayed in, we cooked dinner together.

• 53:37Alex Cooper?

  And, you know, daddy gaining my cooking skills, they have, they have gotten better. They've gotten a little bit better through pregnancy. But it was really just so nice to unplug and spend that time together before the baby comes and we move into this completely new chapter of our life. So whether you're planning a cozy weekend away, or you're just looking for an excuse to unplug for a few days, October is the perfect time to get out of town. Booking a home on Airbnb makes the trip feel even more special, because everyone has room to actually spend time together, whether you're coming back after a long day out, or you're also just cooking dinner. Airbnb makes settling in even easier because you can order groceries for your trip and have all the snacks and essentials delivered after you arrive.

• 54:22Alex Cooper?

  My favorite fall trips always have one thing in common, an amazing place to say. That's why I always look at Airbnb first. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Daddy gang, let's get real, okay? We like to make our own rules. Southern New Hampshire University gets it. They let you learn what you want with over 200 career focused programs, where you want with 100% online courses, and how you want with no set class times. Basically, you get to call the shots from day one. Visit SNHU.edu/callherdaddy to learn more. In 2018, you were TV's highest paid showrunner. What did that milestone mean to you?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  You know, it was, it was a crazy moment because I remember, like I was giving, supposed to be giving the speech for, for L. Women in Hollywood. And I remember my lawyer like telling me that fact and me thinking like, I should talk about that in my speech. Because Ellen had sort of said she was the highest paid woman in television drama and people kind of gave, there was a little bit of backlash about that.

• 55:26Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  And I remember thinking like, I should talk about this in my speech. And being really nervous, like calling my lawyer like 10 to 15 times. We're like, is this true? Like, is this really true? Like, are you sure it's true? And him being like, what is wrong with you? And me being like, I just, I don't know that I believe it. And then it was really hard for me to say it when I gave the speech. But I remember feeling like that was a time when I worked really hard to settle myself in this idea that, okay, now I have, I have real power. So if I have this real power, what am I going to do with it?

• 56:00Alex Cooper?

  That's so relatable because I was going to say crazy. I'm like, no, it's not. It's like you sitting there being like, are you sure? No, come on. And it's like, Shonda, I don't know how many times to break it to you. And yet you couldn't, was it because you couldn't believe it? Was it imposter syndrome? Was it you don't want to look like a fool on stage owning something that? What do you think it was?

• 56:24Speaker 01

  I don't feel like it was imposters. It's that. You know what happens when all your dreams come true? Absolutely nothing. Like, everything stays the same, right? So you're still you. Like, I'm still the person clipping coupons and like, thinking like, maybe I should get that on sale. And maybe I shouldn't like, get too comfortable like, with these shows. I'm still that same person, but now suddenly I'm surrounded by these different trappings. It's about getting used to the trappings of power and what that means and being able to utilize them. I really do think that's what it is.

• 56:54Alex Cooper?

  It's a good point. It's, you just said it the best I've ever heard anyone say it because all the time, people are like, oh, my God, have you had your I made it moment? And I'm like, sure, but not really. It's more just like the living of it. I know I feel like I've made what my dream was, but I'm not complacent now and just like, because nothing changed. I'm still Alex from Pennsylvania that like, loves to create and I'm a nerd with that and whatever it be.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Still looking at new ideas and getting excited about things. Like, it's not, the trappings change. You don't change. I feel like sometimes success makes you more of who you were. And that might be about it. You know, people who are anxious get more anxious. People who are not so nice get less nice. But it makes you more of who you are.

• 57:43Alex Cooper?

  It's a good point because when you're grinding so hard for your dream, you're gonna tackle your way to get there and you're gonna run through the door and you're gonna do whatever. And then once you've really got it, you're like, okay, I did it. Here I am. You're present, you're sitting, you're like, now I do feel probably the most connected to that little girl.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes, exactly.

• 58:04Alex Cooper?

  It's interesting. Um, okay, this is something we've kind of been talking about, which I love. You once said, and this quote is so good, "Men brag and women hide."

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:15Alex Cooper?

  Why do you think women have such a hard time celebrating their accomplishments?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  It's really interesting to be in a room full of women or to sit and talk to other women. And even giving compliments, women can't take compliments. I've worked really hard at that, but it's really, women cannot take compliments. Someone will say to you, like, you're the most powerful podcaster out there right now. And look at the look on your face. Like, you don't want to go like, thank you, right? You, you think to yourself like, oh, well, you know, right? And you try to make it okay for other people because you're afraid that if like, who you are, if you, if you like yourself too much, people are going to think ill of you, which is such, so interesting.

• 58:57Alex Cooper?

  It's like, almost like you, the fear is like, will people think I'm arrogant?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Right. It's who does she think she is? And it's like, well, who do you think you are? You should think you're the most powerful woman in podcasting right now. That's not, that's not an insult. That's not a problem. That's not something to be ashamed of. You're like, yeah, I accomplished that. Like, that's okay. Women have a really hard time with it. Men do not. Men have, who have accomplished almost nothing are still bragging about stuff that isn't even an accomplishment. It's true. It happens all the time.

• 59:26Alex Cooper?

  It's so true. It's like, and I think it's hard because I don't know if you've experienced this, but I feel like a lot of times, which makes me sad, is like, when one woman is having such success, and if she leans in at all, at least now with the day and age of social media, like, there is a lot of tearing down from other women of like, that's not true, blah, blah. And I don't know if it's because there is an insecurity and there's projection going on, whatever it be, but it's like, it sucks.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  I have this theory that inherently, and this is, I'm scared. I feel like women have been raised to really hate themselves. We've been raised to sort of be like, you need to be nicer. You need to be quieter. You need to be sweeter. You need to be, you need to be, adjust yourself so that other people will want to accept you. So women have been raised to like, hate themselves. And it's really hard to watch another woman be completely comfortable in that skin. You're like, well, wait a minute, that, that doesn't feel right. And I don't think it's malicious. And I don't think that, you know, anybody thought, said to themselves, we're going to like, put our, put on the neck of girls. But I do think women have been raised in a world in which society has all of these rules that make you feel like. How dare you, you know?

• 1:00:36Alex Cooper?

  It's so true. It's so true. It's like, it's uncomfortable for other women to see another woman confident, because what it really is is, fuck, I want to get there.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Well, you're uncomfortable, and it's uncomfortable to be that confident woman. Like, it really is. Like, you have to really reach a place where you're like, I really don't care what other people think.

• 1:00:56Alex Cooper?

  What is a time in your career where you downplayed your own success to try to make people feel comfortable?

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I will say that I am really lucky. Like, I was raised in a family where, like, the four girls, we kind of got in trouble if we were ever like, oh, no, not me, poor me. My mother would be like, what's wrong with you? My dad would be like, what are you thinking? So we were raised really in a way that I find a lot of women weren't. However, I still found myself being in a room thinking like, well, I want everybody to like me. Like, I don't want anybody to think that, like, I think that I think so well of myself. Like, it's interesting. Like, it's hard to take a compliment.

• 1:01:35Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, I can imagine for you, it's like, you are having such success, you're so talented, you're now running these rooms, people, like you said, there's hundreds of people in a room waiting for your commands of like, all right, we're about to make the show, we're doing this thing. And then, again, a man probably wouldn't feel this way with you. You're like, okay, but I don't want to come off like I'm too bossy or this. Like, I do want people to look at me and like me. And there's just a double standard for women. So we have to kind of placate the power dynamics and the boundaries and all the things to make people be like, no, but she's really nice. Like, that, you know, if you walked in, you're like, this is what we're doing today. Everyone needs to be on the top of their game, and let's get this thing done.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  What a bitch.

• 1:02:15Alex Cooper?

  What a bitch.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so I watched your documentary, and you literally say in there, like, I don't want anybody to think I'm being a bitch if I say. And I'm like, let's all just be the bitch. Like, be the bitch. Because the reality of it is, is everybody's going to have their opinion of you anyway. And if you are not being cruel to other people, and if you are like, I'm always like, how do I make this a warm, welcoming place for other women to feel like they can come up and be somebody? Then in order for that to happen, I have to make a way in this world in order for those opportunities to exist. So be the bitch.

• 1:02:46Alex Cooper?

  Be the bitch because if there's 10 people in the room, what I have found recently as I'm leaning into not being an actual bitch, but being more of that, like I'm just going to say it how it is because why can my husband say the same thing and everyone's like, I'm excited to work for him. And if I say it, people are like, oh my God, is she in a bad mood today? Meanwhile, I'm like, I just said to do your job, right?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:07Alex Cooper?

  What I found though, is a lot of people in the room will actually start to respect you more. And there's going to be a couple of the stragglers that are like, she's being a bitch because it's projection and they're taking something wrong, whatever it is. But people like someone that is direct and honest and gives you the, the role that you need to do your job with.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  More people respond to that because it's not this amorphous thing where they're trying to figure out what you meant. And here's my thing. Never be cruel, never be mean, never be rude, never belittle, but be direct and be like strong about what you're saying and mean it. Like there's no reason to apologize for being good at your job. For me, that's like a big deal.

• 1:03:46Alex Cooper?

  Shonda, this is like the pep talk we needed to say. The girls are literally taking notes, watching this throughout work right now, being like, I'm going to go get that raise for my boss or I'm going to go advocate for myself. And that I think is like so healthy to remind women, like you can speak up for yourself and that does not make you a bad person. What a concept. Um, okay. Let's talk about your book.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:04:06Alex Cooper?

  The Year of Yes, 10th anniversary. First of all, congratulations.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:04:10Alex Cooper?

  That's really incredible. Um, can you tell anyone who's not familiar, like how did this initially come to be?

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Okay. So I, in 2014, I decided that I was going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me.

• 1:04:22Alex Cooper?

  Why?

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  And if, well, if you knew me before 2014, I was wildly shy, like to the point of like full anxiety attack, like couldn't speak in public. I was very closed off and shut down. I went almost nowhere. I did almost nothing. I had this incredible success in these television shows. My characters were living these like amazing, full, like rich, exciting lives and I was not. I was at home, like living in my imagination.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  And so one day, one of my sisters said to me, you never say yes to anything. Like, I'd been given all these invitations, I would say no. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna spend a year saying yes to everything that scares me. And I did, and I ended up writing a memoir about it called Year of Yes. And so now, 10 years later, I sort of went back and looked and said, like, how has, like, how has my life changed? Because it's completely different than it was 10 years ago. Like, I'm such a different person. I think I almost might be unrecognizable in every way. And so I really wanted to look at it 10 years later to see, like, who am I now? What have my yeses been lately? What has, like, fallen off? What's better, what's worse? You know, how does this keep going?

• 1:05:33Alex Cooper?

  It's really inspiring because I think that's a very relatable thing. Like, you're, you're the one holding yourself back from experiencing these beautiful, big moments that you could enjoy. And yet, you're almost, you're hurting yourself by being your worst enemy. How, though, once you got through this year of yes, obviously, that's so fun. But for someone listening, like, what kept you going with the yes, though? Because I'm assuming a lot of moments were uncomfortable.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00Alex Cooper?

  Talk to me about, like, a yes you said that you were uncomfortable to, and then you left, and you were like, oh, that actually wasn't as bad.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  I mean, it was almost everything. Like, I, the first thing I did was give a commencement speech. That was my first yes. I was gonna give a commencement speech for 10 of 10,000 people. So there are yeses like that, that are just like moments. But then there was like the yes that I said to my body. Like, I was like, I want to say like 150 pounds heavier when I wrote this book. And it was because I had been like, my, my, my body's just a container for my brain. I'm not thinking of myself in this physical way at all. I had sort of shut myself off from the world. And I was like, okay, now I need to say yes to, like, taking care of myself. I feel terrible all the time. So it was like about that. It was saying yes to difficult conversations. Like, I was a person who, like, would run from any difficult conversation as far as I possibly could. And now I'm a person who's like, let's just plow right in. Because, like, the road to peace is, like, through there.

• 1:06:51Alex Cooper?

  And it's so real to be like, once you start practicing something, it's gonna first feel so uncomfortable. And you're gonna be like, I don't want to do this. And then slowly, the second time you do it again, it gets a little easier. And then again, and again. And so I think that's great advice for young women listening is like, the, the hardest part is just jumping into it.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  The very act of doing the thing that you're afraid of undoes the fear. And that is such a freeing feeling to realize, like,

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  The worst thing that can happen is, is that it doesn't go well, but then it's already happened. And that's the worst thing. So.

• 1:07:23Alex Cooper?

  And you'll handle it.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you'll handle it.

• 1:07:25Alex Cooper?

  Um, in your book, you say unhappy people do not like it when a fellow unhappy person becomes happy.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:35Alex Cooper?

  How did your relationship start to change once you did this year of yes?

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  That was really profound because you don't expect to shed people. You know what I mean? I was not a person who ever thought like, like I'm very loyal, like the people in my life, the people in my life. I did not expect to shed people. But when you begin to fundamentally change who you are, your idea of yourself, like how you want to live, anything, even when you begin to have the whisper of the idea that like, I might be valuable. You know what I mean? Like even that little thought, people who are not used to that feeling, people who are comfortable with you in the role that you were in, have a really hard time with it. And a lot of times, you know, there's an adjustment in general, even for the people who are happy for you. But the people who, like, they're very invested in the world that they're in, right?

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  We're all invested in like, the world sucks, you know, this is like this, I'll never get this, I'm bitter about this, let's talk trash about these people. When you stop being able to do that with them, it's really threatening and really upsetting. And I understand it because I've watched it happen to other people I know and I've been like, fuck them, how dare they? But when you start to change, you realize how, how many people are not interested in you having a different definition of yourself.

• 1:08:48Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, I, I feel like that's very relatable and I feel like it can also then become for a period of time, a little alienating, right?

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yes, it's very lonely.

• 1:08:59Alex Cooper?

  You've created your ecosystem, you have your habits, like you said, whether you're like gossiping or talking shit, or you're not feeling good about yourself. Someone close to me recently just went through this where she started to have a more positive outlook and a friend was basically, couldn't be there for her when she just had a successful moment and you're like, We but we've been, we've both been down and I finally got something. Aren't you excited? And it's like, no, I want you to stay down with me.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  I have friends who were amazing when things were terrible, terrible. Like, they were right there. And I was like, these people will be with me for the rest of my life. When things were not terrible, those people were pissed. And it was, it was startling to discover that and also really, really painful. You know, because you're losing people that you love. And I was not intending to lose a single person from my life. So the idea that people would fall away of their own accord because they weren't interested or because you finally had to say like, this isn't working. It's really hard to break up with a friend.

• 1:09:53Alex Cooper?

  It's excruciating. But also, I'm sure once you got a little bit farther away from it, then in hindsight, you start to realize the ecosystem in which you were living. And you're like, oh, that's how toxic it was.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Alex Cooper?

  And I was so immersed in it that I was incapable of fully recognizing like how negative it was.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  You never can recognize. You're like down in the muck and like, that's all you know. And that feels really comfortable. And like to peek your head up out of that is dangerous almost.

• 1:10:21Alex Cooper?

  And I think just for people listening, if you're in that situation where you're like, my friends can never be happy for me and I do want to kind of change, whether it's jobs or relationships, whatever it be, in the moment, as isolating as it can feel, I feel like what we're talking about here is like the short-term discomfort, long-term, you are going to be happier with yourself that although you lost friends, there are new people in your life that you can meet that can meet you where you're at, which is in a positive capacity and not so negative.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  And give your original friends who are having a hard time, give them some grace for a while. Because you are becoming a whole different person that they don't know. So for some friends, I like, you know, there was a space in time when they were like, what the hell's happening? But then our friendships became even stronger. But there were some people who just like, it wasn't, they weren't ready. They weren't ready for me to be different and they weren't ready to look at the world in a different way.

• 1:11:11Alex Cooper?

  Something I also loved about your book was how you wrote that sometimes saying yes to opportunities means saying yes to failures.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:21Alex Cooper?

  What is the biggest lesson that you've learned from your failures throughout your career?

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I always try to look at failures not as like total failures, but like lessons learned in a great way. But I also feel like there's nothing wrong with with like letting a failure happen if it's a failure. Like the shame that people seem to want to feel like they don't want to, you know, I don't want anybody to know that this happened, or I don't want to ever tell that story. Like the failures that you have are the failures that you had, and they basically are part of what made me where I am right now. So I try to embrace them and know that like I really can like live through them. Like they happened.

• 1:12:15Alex Cooper?

  This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. So anytime that I am finding myself having a habit that I just cannot kick, I'm like, okay, I need to talk about this in therapy. Listen, guys, everyone has habits, mindsets, or patterns that don't serve them, but recognizing what they are and learning how to let them go can be so important. It's literally the first step towards creating meaningful change. And therapy with BetterHelp, one of the leading online therapy platforms, can be a space to explore where those patterns come from and develop healthier habits and mindsets for a more fulfilling life. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp has served millions of people globally. BetterHelp makes it easier to fit therapy into your routine with flexible ways to connect that work for different schedules and lifestyles.

• 1:13:00Alex Cooper?

  Plus, BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1,000 hours on hand experience and hold all required education, training, and certifications. You can meet with a range of professionals from marriage and family therapists to social workers and counselors. So Daddy Gang, if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's betterh-e-l-p.com/daddy. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Pandora Jewelry. Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry.

• 1:13:41Alex Cooper?

  I feel like the best gifts are always the ones that feel really personal, right? Like, anyone can buy you something nice, but when someone gives you a gift that is actually meaningful, you appreciate it so much more. And that's what I do love about Pandora. They have so many pieces that you can really just make your own, from festive charms to personalized engravings and jewelry that can represent the people and the moments that mean the most to you. So whether you're shopping for your partner, or your mom, your best friend, you can find something that really is specific to them. Maybe it's a charm that makes you think of the trip that you guys took together once, or maybe it's an engraving for your anniversary, or just a piece that feels like them the

• 1:14:26Alex Cooper?

  second you see it. Pandora makes it so easy to give a gift that feels thoughtful and personal, and makes every holiday moment even more meaningful and special. Because at the end of the day, the best gifts aren't just about the piece itself, but it's the intention and the story behind them. Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop now at pandora.net or visit your closest Pandora store. One thing that you have been clear you're not interested in saying yes to is the idea of marriage. When did you first realize this?

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  And I don't know if that's true anymore. Isn't that interesting? I don't know if that's true anymore.

• 1:15:02Alex Cooper?

  Talk to me.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  So, I'd never been a person who thought about getting married. Like, I was a person who, like, I always knew I was gonna be a mom. Like, I've always known that. Like, that was always part of my plan. Marriage never really entered into it. And my parents have, like, this amazing, romantic, beautiful marriage. They've been married forever. And so, like, I have this great example of what a great marriage is, but I was always like, eh, eh. I really value being independent. I really value, like, being on my own. I, I tried the whole getting engaged thing and, like, almost killed myself, like, trying to pretend that I was somebody who wanted to get married. And it just wasn't me. Like, I was like, this is not, I feel suffocated.

• 1:15:41Alex Cooper?

  I think that is an extremely relatable feeling that maybe people don't talk about. I remember I had shared that where I grew up, I had a similar situation with the image of my parents and what they represented. I was like, I've never seen two people so good and as a partnership and in love. So what's wrong with me that I don't crave that at all? And I had zero interest in getting married. I was like, I am an independent. I'm all these things, which I think is beautiful to know within yourself and not put pressure on.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Alex Cooper?

  But then what changed? So now you're kind of like.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Well, so now I feel like, you know, I have these girls who are much older, you know, like my youngest daughter is 12 at this point. You know, so what really got me the first time was, so you get engaged and everybody is so happy for you. People were more happy for me that I had a man who wanted to marry me than they were about my career, my shows, my children, like combined.

• 1:16:38Alex Cooper?

  Stop.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Combined. I was like, I have a freaking Peabody Award. Nobody cared. They're like, you have a man who wants to marry you.

• 1:16:44Alex Cooper?

  You're like, you guys, no.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  It felt really threatening. I think about this now. It felt really threatening to my whole identity. That like, that's where people were gonna see my value.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  And now, like, I think I'm, that's because I wasn't necessarily comfortable in my own skin, probably. I very much know who I am now. Like, I know who I am. I'm very comfortable in my skin. I'm very comfortable with like what I've accomplished, what I haven't accomplished, like who I am as a woman. Like, now I'm completely comfortable with the idea that like I could meet somebody and spend the rest of my life with somebody and marry them. Because I'm not worried that like who I am is gonna be taken away from me, or that I'm gonna have to let, like compromise pieces of, of my career or what I've accomplished or what I wanted to be.

• 1:17:28Alex Cooper?

  That's also beautiful because what a concept that women can change their minds.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:33Alex Cooper?

  And we should be, let them. And it's okay if one moment you say you don't want something and now you could potentially want it.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm not saying like, oh, I want to get married, but I'm, but I'm not, I'm no longer saying like, I never want to get married. Like, I'm open.

• 1:17:45Alex Cooper?

  Have you struggled in previous relationships with men being intimidated by your success?

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yes. That's like.

• 1:17:54Alex Cooper?

  That's the whole thing.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  That's the whole.

• 1:17:55Alex Cooper?

  That's the name of the game.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  That's the whole game.

• 1:17:57Alex Cooper?

  It is. And then it's really hard to stay. One, obviously, like the surface level is just like being attracted to someone that's intimidated by your success. But the deeper thing, again, is the independence being threatened. But also, what's the point of having a partner in your life? That's not an actual partner, that's not rooting for you and wanting you to succeed. And you're downplaying yourself. You're coming home and you're not sharing certain things because you're like, oh, he'll feel insecure.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  But also, like, you're actively in a space where they're not in the headspace of feeling good about themselves. So you feel like you're actively diminishing somebody else. Like, I'm not interested in actively making a man feel diminished by who I am and by who he is.

• 1:18:40Alex Cooper?

  And then by you then also being aware of that, you're also diminishing yourself.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  You're making yourself smaller. It's that Christina Yang thing of like letting go of pieces of yourself so that somebody else can feel good about who they are.

• 1:18:51Alex Cooper?

  It all comes back to Christina.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  It does, doesn't it? It really does.

• 1:18:54Alex Cooper?

  Um, I, one of the quotes from your book was, "The wedding was right there. The amazing guy was right there. The happy was right there, and I didn't want it." Once you broke off this engagement, how did you feel?

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  The terrible thing is, and I say this in the book, I felt so good. I felt so relieved. I felt like this huge weight had been lifted from me, which is awful. Because A, another person gets hurt. But B, you know, it was a what, it should have been a wonderful thing. But what tells you that it wasn't was how free I felt and how, like, I was like, I think I was really afraid of what this was going to be on top of everything else. Like, I was approached this with some level of like dread of what I was going to be letting go of and giving up to be in this relationship.

• 1:19:44Alex Cooper?

  And then you felt free once you ended it.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  I felt so good.

• 1:19:47Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about your family.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:48Alex Cooper?

  You have three daughters.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:49Alex Cooper?

  What is a typical night at home like for you guys?

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. So I have a 23-year-old who lives in London, so she's living her best London life right now.

• 1:19:57Alex Cooper?

  I am so jealous.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:19:59Alex Cooper?

  Do you visit her often or no?

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  I do, because, you know, that's where Bridgerton is, so I get to go over.

• 1:20:03Alex Cooper?

  Love.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  Which is wonderful. But for me, like a typical night at home, it's like me and my daughters. We have dinner, we hang out, we go and watch, let the dogs run around.

• 1:20:12Alex Cooper?

  Do they watch your shows?

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  No, my 23 year old, I don't think has ever watched any of my shows.

• 1:20:17Alex Cooper?

  Not even Grey's? Cause she was?

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  No, she watched How to Get Rid of Murder because I didn't make that.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  My second daughter, who's 13.

• 1:20:26Alex Cooper?

  Shonda.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:20:27Alex Cooper?

  I feel like everyone comes here and is like, you have no idea how much your kids will humble you. I don't have kids. And I'm like,

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  They're just not impressed at all. They don't give a crap. They're not like impressed. So my 13 year old, she started watching Grey's Anatomy. And I was like, oh my God, this is happening. And I had been like, you can't watch it. My mom was like, yes, she can. So I was like, your grandma said you can watch it. She watched like eight or nine episodes and then Christina had an ectopic pregnancy and she was like furious. She was like, she was like, I didn't understand this was coming. I didn't see this was coming. I think this is too old for me. And she turned it off.

• 1:20:59Alex Cooper?

  Not her being able to walk down, knock on the door and be like, hey, mom, fuck is this? Why did you write this? And you're like, listen, sweetie. And she's like, I'm done with you.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. She was like, no, no. And then my, my youngest daughter, you know, cause the entry age for Grey's, like it's like 11 or 12 years old. Like I know when young kids have started watching Grey's, cause I can see their faces look at me differently. Like they know who I am. So my youngest daughter, she and her little seventh grade friends have, and this is so insulting, but also so great, have made a pact that none of them are ever going to watch Grey's Anatomy. Because nobody wants to know what Beckett's mother has to say about life, love, or anything else.

• 1:21:35Alex Cooper?

  Shonda. Oh my God.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:21:40Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  They literally have a pact. Like none of us are going to watch it. And I was like, fine. Like you little haters, but it's also fantastic. Like I feel like my children's self-esteem is like clearly intact when they are not impressed.

• 1:21:52Alex Cooper?

  They're good. That's so funny. Cause I remember when I interviewed Ellen, her daughter came because she was a fan of the show. Yes. And Stella was like, I was like, so did you watch? You know? And she goes, yeah, but I'll be honest. I kind of stopped after McDreamy was gone. And I was like, okay. Okay. And Ellen's literally like my life. Like kids will just be like, let me humble you right now, mom.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Harper would always be like, so do you think that that's like a great show? Like, and I'd be like, my favorite thing about Harper was when she was younger, she would be like, you know, Julie Pleck, who does the vampire. She was like, Julie Pleck is amazing, mom. Like Julie Pleck is ever. And I was like, so basically like, my whole life is if only my daughter thought about me the way she thinks about Julie Pleck.

• 1:22:35Alex Cooper?

  You know what you need to do? You need to go under an alias for the first season of something and be like, did you hear about this new show? Your daughter sit down, they're like, this is the best show ever. And then you're like,

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  That was me.

• 1:22:45Alex Cooper?

  That was me. That's amazing. Um, what is something that your daughters have taught you?

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Incredible amounts of patience. Incredible amounts of patience. I think that that is, is very true. But also like you meet people where they are for real. Like they do not come out and then you mold them. They really come out as the people they are and your job is to make them more of that person, a better version of that person. And that is really hard as a mom and as a perfectionist and as a person who like is very type A. Like it's really about like, okay, so she's this kind of kid. How do I like embrace that and then help her be that kind of kid?

• 1:23:27Alex Cooper?

  That's beautiful. Yeah. It's probably really good for you, right?

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  It's really good for me. It's so freaking hard.

• 1:23:32Alex Cooper?

  No one else could have done it to you.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:34Alex Cooper?

  But your children.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:23:35Alex Cooper?

  Um, I think a lot of women will, I appreciate this conversation of like, you chose to start a family. You didn't have a partner, obviously. How did you decide? Three kids?

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Okay, this is interesting because I've talked to other women about this. I, you know, nine 11 happened and I was like, this was really like a turning point for me. I was like, the world's going to end and I will have never have done the, like, the one thing I wanted to do, which is to have a kid. So I became a mom at the same time the Grey's Anatomy came out. And that was like, as a working mother, that was like the hardest, most devastating, most amazing situation to be in the middle of. My daughter grew up thinking I worked in a hospital. Um, she did, because that's where she was all the time. And so then like 10 years on, I thought like, okay, so I've had one daughter and 37 actors, but she doesn't have any siblings. And so then I was, it was the middle of scandal and I was like, I'm gonna have two more kids. And that was a plan. Like, I was like, if I'm gonna have more kids, I'm not gonna have kids

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  who are like another only, you know, in that sense of like 10 year gap. I'm gonna have two kids in close succession to one another so that they have each other.

• 1:24:36Alex Cooper?

  It's beautiful.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  It is, except they're so different from each other, it doesn't even matter. Like, they're so different.

• 1:24:41Alex Cooper?

  The plan actually backfired because like, it's very, very different.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  They're all in their own worlds.

• 1:24:46Alex Cooper?

  Um, you, I know you, you've kind of said that your family is very traditional.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Alex Cooper?

  And they had a lot of questions about this to you. What conversations did you need to have with them about this decision?

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  You know what's wonderful is like, my, my parents are very get on board. But like, they had a lot of questions about adoption. They had a lot of questions about like, what that was gonna mean and how that was gonna be. Although in my family, it sort of has never mattered, like how you came into the family, you're just a part of the family.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Surrogacy brought up a lot of questions for my family, like, that just felt, I mean, I don't think I've, to this day, I still haven't had the sperm donor conversation with my father. Do you know what I mean? Like, like those conversations. But like, that stuff was a big deal. Like, how is this gonna happen? I think that was a big deal. But for me, what's amazing is, is the minute there's a baby, my whole family is like, in love and embrace. Like, our family is really great in that way. Like, we're a very big, loud, boisterous family who like, everybody is super embraced.

• 1:25:46Alex Cooper?

  I think it's beautiful, too. Everyone has such a different journey to building whatever their version of a family is. Some people don't want kids, some people want kids, some people are doing it different ways. And again, I think as women, we can feel shame from other people if we're not doing it the way that traditionally we've been taught that we should do it. And it's such a great statement that you just made of like, and then, once it happens, it's like, look how beautiful this is.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  For a little while, I think I felt like I had to justify it. You know what I mean? Like, I felt like I had to. Um, sort of, I don't even know. I felt like I had to justify it for people. And that's ridiculous. Like at a certain, I was like, however, I decide. You know, it's like, nobody puts in the paper, like, like so and so had a baby via C-section. Nobody says like, this is their C-sectioned child. So like, how my children came into my family is like, not the issue.

• 1:26:38Alex Cooper?

  Right. And none of your business.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Alex Cooper?

  It's a really good point. Again, but it goes back to, this is a complete different comparison, but we were talking about earlier. It's like, the same thing was happening on the set of Scandal or Grey's. But when it's a different person doing the act.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:53Alex Cooper?

  There's a different light and fixation on it. And so people can see it differently.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 1:26:58Alex Cooper?

  And it's like, guys, worry about your own damn selves. Um, in a speech, you said, whenever you see me somewhere succeeding in one area of my life, that almost certainly means that I am failing in another. How have you come to terms with knowing that you can only do so much at once?

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  I think the relief was realizing that you can only do so much at once. I mean, I think that the struggle and the, the way we're told, like, lean in, or you can have it all, or all these things. It's such bullshit. But we're so conditioned to feel like, like I'm supposed to be fully present at work all the time. And then I'm supposed to be like, the most amazing mom all the time. It does not work that way. Like, I am a mother because that is who I am. You know, sometimes mother is not what I do. Sometimes it's just who I am. And my job is amazing, but there are times when I'm gonna have to like, say like, okay, I let that slide because my kids needed me. And that is okay. I think when we tell ourselves it's not okay, and we put all this pressure on ourselves to like, either you're perfect in one, or you're perfect in the other, or you're trying to be perfect in both. That's when you fail.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Because you're never, that's a zero sum game. It's never gonna happen. You're never gonna feel amazing at both. It's always gonna be a little bit, you know, shaky. So let it be shaky.

• 1:28:13Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. It's helpful to hear that because I agree. I think everyone's like, you know, you can't do it all, but then you kind of are still like, no, I'm gonna try. And it's like, sometimes you really do have to put your eggs in one basket and really double down and focus on that. And it doesn't almost mean that you're not, you're like abandoning the other things in your life. You're just recognizing right now, the priority is right here. And I'm still going to show up in this area, but I'm not going to be 100% and that's okay.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  It's not that you can't do it all. It's that you can't do it all at once. So for me, I'm always like, okay, so maybe sometimes this is going to be like over here, down a little bit more, and this is going to be more up. But I'm still doing it all in a way that makes me feel less guilty and like embracing the idea that you are failing at something else. People used to be like, how can you say that? Like, it made me feel so much better to think like, okay, I'm failing at work right now. That's okay. To give myself that permission made it so much easier.

• 1:29:05Alex Cooper?

  Have you felt like you're failing at work ever in your life?

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, all the time.

• 1:29:08Alex Cooper?

  Okay, that makes me feel better. That makes me feel better. You've revolutionized TV in so many ways, and you have paved the way for other women in this field and in other fields. What do you ultimately hope your legacy is?

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I always really try to avoid the concept of legacy. I mean, I hope that there is space for women to feel like there are still trails to be blazed, but that the blazing of the trails doesn't mean that you're blazing them alone anymore. Because I think being like a woman who's done something that necessarily hadn't been done by other people, it's a lonely road. You're like making that path happen a lot of the time. And so I feel like I want women to feel like there's all this to be accomplished, but that not necessarily, like hopefully I've left a space where there's enough room that more women are doing it. Does that make sense?

• 1:30:01Alex Cooper?

  It absolutely makes sense. Outside of your career, what do you wish more people knew about you?

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  Right now, I'm just obsessed with golf. So it's really weird.

• 1:30:12Alex Cooper?

  What?

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  I know, right? I have a whole chapter in the book about it.

• 1:30:15Alex Cooper?

  Wait, what?

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  I've become like this weird obsessed golfer.

• 1:30:19Alex Cooper?

  I love this for you.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  I had never had a hobby. I mean, like, literally, like, I had hobbies, then I had my shows, then I didn't have any hobbies for like 20 years. And so I moved to Connecticut and I took up a hobby.

• 1:30:30Alex Cooper?

  You're hitting the country clubs, you're swinging, you're golfing, you're getting birdies. Wait, this is amazing because it does kind of, and I'm not a good golfer, but I've like gone a couple of times. I love things that I actually cannot think of other things while I'm doing it.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  You can't think of other things. It's something that I'm definitely, it's really interesting to be somebody who's like really good at a thing and then do something that you're terrible at. And like, it's all about making yourself good at it. I also like the fact that, and like, I sort of revel in this idea that like, a country club is not a space that was like, made for me. Nobody was thinking like, this black lady is going to be at a country club. It's not a thing. So I kind of love this idea of like, occupying these spaces that necessarily weren't made for us. And like, we're like, sort of taking them over. Like, I have these women I golf with and we're like loud and we're like rowdy and we're not like lady golfers. We're like, you know, we're women who golf.

• 1:31:21Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  And it's a lot of fun.

• 1:31:23Alex Cooper?

  I can't imagine being on a golf cart and turning like, is that Shonda Rhimes? You're vibing, you've got the speakers going.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Exactly. And we're having a really good time doing it.

• 1:31:32Alex Cooper?

  That's incredible.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  But it also allows me, for the first time, to think of myself as like, and my sister laughs at this every time, but like, an athlete. Like, I'm like, I'm an athlete. There's an athlete inside me. It's right, it's coming out.

• 1:31:41Alex Cooper?

  Oh, I love this for you. Um, okay, looking to the future, last question. What is something you're really excited about?

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I have to, and this is going to be vague and it's not, I don't mean it to be vague. I'm really excited about whatever's next. Because I am in this percolation phase where I'm trying to figure out what my next story is. And it's been a while since I've told like a brand new, fresh story. So I'm really excited for that moment. Like, I'm really excited to like, dig back in, roll my sleeves up and like, get back into a show.

• 1:32:12Alex Cooper?

  I am beyond excited. I'm jealous that I can't like, go in that brain of yours. I'm like staring at your forehead, I'm like, what is she thinking? What's going on in there? It's so exciting. You're so talented. You've been in our homes for now, like, decades. And I just feel like this next era for you. I'm very excited to see what you come up with because I know we're all gonna love it. But if anything, I'm now like, you've done so much that I can't wait to see what avenue you choose in terms of theme and story and characters. Like, there's still so much to be done and I'm happy that you're gonna come back to us.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:32:47Alex Cooper?

  Love it. Um, Shonda Rhimes, this was everything I could have imagined and more. I feel so stimulated from this conversation. I feel motivated. So thank you for giving me your time. I know you're very busy and it was an honor to interview you.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  This was fantastic. This is a great conversation.

• 1:33:02Alex Cooper?

  It was so good.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  And I understand, like, you're an amazing interviewer. So truly, I've had some interviews. This was amazing and really fun conversation and relaxed and lovely. So thank you so much.

• 1:33:10Alex Cooper?

  Thank you for coming.

• 1:33:30Alex Cooper?

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• 1:36:25Alex Cooper?

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