Sophia Bush: Brooke Davis, Breakups & Beginning Again

Join Alex in the studio for a conversation with Sophia Bush! Sophia opens up about her highly publicized relationships and her past struggles to trust herself within them. She looks back on One Tree Hill, the legacy of Brooke Davis and joining forces with her female castmates to speak out about the misconduct they faced behind the scenes. Plus, Sophia sets the record straight on her current relationship, clears up the timelines, and gets candid about coming out, finding love and finally feeling like herself. Enjoy!

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• 2:28Speaker 00

  What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Sophia Bush, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Thank you. Wait, can I, can we say it together?

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Yes. What are we saying?

• 2:44Speaker 01

  I really want to do a what's up daddy gang, like so bad. Vanessa and I did it the whole way here in the car.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Okay, you want to do it together?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I do. No, I want to do it together. Like, like we're at cheer camp. Not that I ever went.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know how to be a cheerleader. Okay, ready?

• 3:00Speaker 01

  What's up daddy gang? Thank you. I just, I needed to do it one time.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  It's like literally become something. I feel like it's like, I don't even think about when I say that, but I guess to other people, it's so something I say all the time.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  I also don't know if you know, there's like a niche angle of it for either gender nonconforming or like hot masked lesbians, because there's, there's like such a daddy swag. And then it turns into a little bit of like, when there's a group of them, people are like, it's a daddy gang.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  You know what I love so much is when I started this show way back when, I'm like, wow, the name had such a different meaning. And it has evolved for me, and even the name Daddy, I really do appreciate like the different iterations that I've gone through and the way that I identify with it. But I love that you're walking in here being like, oh, this means a lot to me. This means a lot to me.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  It feels right.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  You mean a lot to me. Okay, because if I told myself that I was gonna get to sit down with the woman behind, first of all, so much that you've done in your career, but if you take like young Alex, the legend, the icon behind Brooke Davis, and what she meant for women, and my younger self, like I was the biggest One Tree Hill fan, episode one through and through. And I'm so excited, obviously, because now to have you here and you have a memoir coming out, there's so many highs and there's so many lows. And the way that you really bring us through that journey of your life, you did such an incredible job. And now I just can't help but ask, like,

• 4:35Speaker 00

  why now? Like, what, how did you know this was the right time?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  You know that adage, let go or be dragged? Like, your book drags you. And a book, you think you know what it's gonna be, and then it drags you. And it's like, no, we're going here. And you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And the more writers I've talked about this with, the more people who've shared the journey of their first book, they're like, oh, it's Baptism by Fire is like mellow compared to writing your first book.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  I can't imagine, because I feel like it's like, you probably went through so many different versions of yourself when you were writing this. And also, it almost is probably, yes, cathartic and therapeutic, but also, like you said, it's also dragging you where you're like, but I didn't want to write about this. But then it calls to you and you have to write about it. Are you nervous? Are you excited? Like?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  I am everything. I have never been on more of an emotional roller coaster. I have days where I'm like, I did it. And it's beautiful. And I've held it. And I'm so proud of it. And I have days where I'm like, don't do it. Don't, you know, I'll just, I'll buy every copy and burn them. And we don't need to do this. And why does anybody do this? And who lets us do this? And why, why does anybody do this? Like, it's, it's crazy.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  No, it's, I was thinking about that. Like, you share so much in this book.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  And there's so much I don't.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  And you're gonna tell me offline, but let's get into it, because one of the chapters in this memoir is called, It Was the Best of Times, It Was the Worst of Times. And it is about One Tree Hill. And so I want to just kind of like, go back to the beginning. What did your life even look like when you first got the call to do this audition that changed your life?

• 6:24Speaker 01

  It was so...

• 6:28Speaker 01

  How do I even begin to describe the time? I mean, it was 2003, first of all. I, I didn't think I wanted to be an actor. I thought I wanted to be a heart surgeon. I wanted to go to medical school. I love, I do really love science. And then as I was sort of making my way through high school, I was like, weird, I don't love chemistry. I think that's pretty important for med school, but I really like biology. I don't know. Like, I was sort of in that space. And then I had to do a play. I was so pissed. I thought I was gonna outsmart the school system and be like, oopsie, I left my theater requirement for the semester that I'm on the volleyball

• 7:11Speaker 01

  team. So you're not gonna make me stop playing sports, right? And I remember the headmistress of my school, who was so fabulous, looking at me with a smirk and being like, sounds like a you problem. And I was like, oh, this is a lesson in accountability. I really wasn't prepared for, kay? And the experience of essentially taking a book, a story that I loved to get lost in, and bring it to life with other people. I was like, do people know about this? Do they know how amazing this is?

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Like, I actually like doing this. What a concept.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  So it was this big shift for me. And then I went to USC. My parents did not want me to be an actor. I didn't enjoy the acting program. It felt too small. I transferred into the Journalism School. They were like, thank God, she's on her way. She's gonna give it up. She's gonna have a serious job. She's gonna work on the news. And then I booked this pilot, like, big pilot for ABC. Jeff Nordling, like handsome mess of a dad from Big Little Lies, was playing my dad. Loved working with him. Pilot winds up not getting picked up. It's just, it's not what they're looking for, for the slate. And I get a call because the same production company that made that pilot

• 8:27Speaker 01

  had produced the pilot Ravens, which I'd read. And I'd been sent the sides for Peyton. And I'd laughed, because I was like, you guys, like, I am not, I'm not punk rock. Okay.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  Okay, so that was like so far fetched for you.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  That's not, I could read, I'm never gonna book that part. Like, it's just not my essence. And in the time between, when they were gearing up for the show, they realized their four lead kids all had pretty tragic stuff going on. And they wanted somebody who felt fun. So, season one, you know, episode one, after the pilot, they're introducing the new girl. And they asked me to read for her. And I was like, I went to an all-girls school, like, what's a cheerleader? I've seen Bring It On a hundred times, but I've never cheered. I don't know. I'll figure it out. And I went in to read for this part, literally being like, well, I have a, I have a skirt that

• 9:26Speaker 01

  kind of looks like a tennis skirt, which I guess could pass for a cheer skirt? They're pleated, maybe? Like, just like a clueless little...

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Baby of a human with goo behind my ears, no idea what was going on. And through the process, I went, you know, callback after callback. And then they were like, do you want to move to North Carolina next Thursday?

• 9:50Speaker 00

  And you're at USC, you're living a normal college experience.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  I was the philanthropy chair of my sorority.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  Oh, you were like riving.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  And the only reason I'd even gotten into the Greek system was because I went to an all-girls school with 55 girls in my graduating class.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  So it was familiar. You're like, I know this is like the back of my hand. I can do this.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  I just was like, oh, I'll go to college and do the thing they do in the movies and see if it's fun. And then, of course, I wound up launching all our charitable stuff. And then I get to set and people are like, oh, well, she's from LA. And I was like, but I don't, what's a mark? Like, what is this place? I knew nothing.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  Okay, so you decide, you know what, I'm gonna leave college. Did your parents freak out?

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Um, yes. Also, like, what a baby. Truly, I just, I had so little life experience. I remember going to see my advisor at Annenberg. This tiny adorable woman with dark curly hair, I'm not gonna say her name because I don't want people to like look her up on Instagram. But she's a dreamboat. And I remember sitting down in her office and saying, you know, they want me to come in and screen test for this TV show. And if you screen test, you know, you have to sign a deal. And if you get it, it's done, you're going. And it's, it's gonna be my senior year in college. And I don't know if I want to miss it. I'm never gonna get this back.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  And she just said, Sofia, this is not, these are not opportunities that come around a lot. And if this is what you think you want to do, go and do it. You can always come back to school. And I remember thinking, yeah, I mean, I guess we could do even like a couple of years and I could come back. Maybe I'll be back in three years. What's the difference?

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe I'll be back and then.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  And then nine seasons later.

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  And then.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  A decade.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  So how old were you?

• 11:40Speaker 01

  I turned 21 the week before I moved to North Carolina. So I, I did three years at SC. And then that, that summer after my junior year, I was 20, I turned 21 and then I moved there.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  And that's like a pretty traditional, normal college experience, going to it? Like, I'm like, I didn't fully know that about you before I started researching. I'm like, oh, this girl went through three years of like, normal life, college, she wasn't a child actress, like, your whole life just turned upside down. So you get on set for the first time. And from what I understand, you're basically saying you weren't this seasoned actor, which some of them already were.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  How did that play into how you felt walking on set and meeting everyone?

• 12:29Speaker 01

  I mean, I was so, I was so nervous. And there was this, I think I mentioned earlier, this sort of story, like, oh, this girl from LA, oh, her dad's in the business. My dad was a photographer who worked in advertising and, you know, what I think nobody really got, because it sounds like a fancy job. My dad, my dad was a version of a cameraman. You know, my dad was crew. And so it was a weird thing because I'd watched my dad work. I'd learned work ethic, certainly from him, from both my parents. But I'd never been in that environment before. In the sort of rarefied air, like, on the set with the actors. This was the era of Tiger Beat.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  You know, it all seemed so cool. And I was like, I'm not cool. And I don't want anyone to know I'm not cool.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  But I'm playing the coolest girl on camera. Probably one of the coolest high schoolers to ever grace our televisions, okay? And then, I'm like, okay, so you then, do you immediately bond with the cast? Are you a little bit?

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Totally. It was all so sweet. Because it really, you know, you'll hear people talk about how it's a bit like summer camp. We were all kids. It literally felt like summer camp. But suddenly, we, we were the campers and the counselors, you know? And none of us knew what we were doing. It's crazy to have that much responsibility. And we just sort of figured it out. And I think I got really lucky because I hadn't been there for the pilot. I didn't know any of these people. I didn't know any of their prior relationships or experiences with each other. I was the sort of fish out of water.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  And, you know, I got, I got pulled under wings very quickly. And it was like, you're gonna come to this with us. Everybody's going out to this and you'll come with us. You know, everybody was so sweet. It was lovely and we were children.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Well, I was gonna say, like, to anyone who lived under a rock and didn't stop, well, actually, I would say, didn't know what One Tree Hill was, but now it's having a complete resurgence again, and again, and again. It just keeps going, which is amazing.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Like, we get older, but the show stays the same age. And every year it finds a new life.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  And it's so crazy. And now I meet moms our age who have 12-year-olds, who are watching the show and their mom, and I'm like, ah, fit? Also, I'm going, I'm so sorry for the things my character did in the first season. She grows up, don't, don't take her advice right away, but she has a really good heart, I promise. And now I feel like their mother. It's so crazy.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  No, I actually wrote that down because I was like, I was not like this sexy thing when I was younger, but I remember some of Brooke Davis's lines. And one of them I wrote down was, know that not even your fantasy of me is interested in you.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  So good.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm like, that is.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  So good.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  Obviously, I know what you're saying about like some of her early advice. But are there any early OG Brooke moments where you look back and you're like, oh, that was my girl? Like, she really, she really embodied just something that we all wanted to be in moments.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Totally. She, she was so, at first, alarmingly confident to me. I was like, this is not okay. We should not be doing this. What sort of example are we setting? And interestingly, because I had to play her, even when I didn't agree with her, or even if I was mortified by her behavior, I learned to make room for other people. I think earlier than I might have, because I had to figure out how to make room for another person, literally inside of myself. And it was a really interesting journey because then I started to learn to ask questions. Well, why is she behaving like this? Where does, where does the acting outcome from?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  What do we call, pick a stereotypical word for bold women out of the dictionary and fill in the blank, why do we call her that? Because if the boys act like this, they get high fives. But then she gets called something derogatory. I don't like that. And it weirdly made me, it helped me be a bolder person. I think sooner than I might have found my boldness.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  That is really beautiful.

• 17:06Speaker 00

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• 20:06Speaker 00

  Something I think that I was excited to talk to you about because I know you're obviously so bright and I think obviously the over sexualization of women in media and television is just rampant and it has been for decades and centuries, centuries, centuries. It goes all the way back. So, talk to me about early days, you pushed back on the sexualization of Brooke and her character. And can you explain to me like what this character was initially pitched as? And then some of the things that you voiced like, no, this is a little uncomfortable. I don't love this.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, she was pitched, I remember them saying, okay, so we had this producer on the show who very famously dropped an F-bomb every fourth word, like a real New York guy, came up in the MTV scene, like, like, if you had a stereotypical New York gruff, but lovable neighbor on Seinfeld, this guy, he actually was named as a Seinfeld character. And when we, when we did the call ahead of me going in to read for them, because they were all under the same production company umbrella, he was like, all these characters, Meghan, want to kill yourself. And I was like, oh, my God, you know, I was like, okay.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  And, you know, he's, and he's like, you know, it's like you have a kid who's a victim of like narcissistic abuse from a dad and a kid who doesn't have a dad and people dealing with economic struggles and someone with a dead mom and like, everything's dark, you know? And he was like, we need somebody like comic relief, come in and stir the pot, like the, you know, we always used to joke, like, she's the HPIC, you know, the head bitch in charge, which I wasn't. And I was like, fun, that sounds so fun. And I remember, like, being, there were four scenes in the audition, and one of them was the leopard bra in the backseat of the car. And I remember being a little uncomfortable with it, but also wanting

• 22:13Speaker 01

  to be good. And being like, so like, what's, like, what's the vibe with this? Like, you know, throw myself under the bus a little bit. I went to an all-girls school, like, I didn't know anything, we didn't have this, you know, like parking lots with boys' cars and what's the vibe? And they're like, well, you know, it's, it's an introductory moment and it's, it's meant to tell the audience, like, you can't ignore this person because she wasn't in the pilot. And I'm like, okay, it's, it's like a stunt.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  It's a splash.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  You know, it's like stunt casting, but in a scene. And I'm going, okay, I get it. And then, you know, she's fun and she's like trying to push Peyton to get out of her shell. And she's like the girl who is telling her best friend, like, you're hot, you're desired, go out there and get what you want. And I'm like, that's me. Like, I'm the person when you walk in, I'm like, your hair looks fucking amazing, your tits look great in that dress, your butt looks perfect in those jeans. Like, tell your friends they're beautiful, the world is mean to women, you know?

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Yes, you're the hype woman.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yes. So I was like, she's a hype woman. That I have in spades.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Down.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  And then we get out there. And then I hear that there's been a mandate by the fourth episode from the producers, like, we want more Brooke. And I'm like, whoa, that's crazy. And also, the story gets told by our boss in a way that definitely makes the energy with the girls weird. And I'm like, that, that didn't feel, you didn't need to tell other people that, you could have just told me there was a compliment, like, it was a weird dynamic.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Because everyone's fighting for screen time and it's, again, it's a job. So you're like, why are we doing this?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Well, and, and we had no adult who said, these are common things that happen to young people on TV. You might feel this, you might feel that, you might need someone to talk to. We were just kind of trying to deal with it all and then pretend like we weren't affected, but of course we were affected. And so, I remember, I don't remember what the episodes were that led up to it, which is crazy, because now I've actually watched the whole show, thanks to the podcast. But I remember when the big fight that I wrote about happened. It was the episode where the characters get in the hot tub, they like break into one

• 24:27Speaker 01

  of Brooke's neighbor's backyards and are hot tubbing. And they gave me bathing suit bottoms, but a nude strapless bra. And I was like, no, I want a bathing suit top. And they were like, no, you're supposed to look topless. And I'm like, but it's a nude bra, it's literally just gonna look like my breasts are out in the water on screen. Like, they're not down at the bottom of the hot tub, they're right here. So, and wardrobe was like, I don't know what to tell you, this is from the producers in LA. And I was kind of like, I'm saying no, and you're saying no to me. And it's my body. And it was, it

• 25:09Speaker 01

  was sort of a straw that broke the camel's back, because there were more and more and more of these very expository scenes. And I was like, romance and sex and whatever, I mean, God, I didn't have a healthy relationship to any of it then, who did? But I was like, I get some of it. I don't think it should be the only thing this person does. And so we got into it and we got in this like screaming match on my phone. And I remember like, and I wrote about this, like, looking at the phone like this, so offended by what was being said to me. And I think about it now, because I'm like, oh, was something in my brain aware that we would have FaceTime one day? Like, that we would have a screen? I don't know.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  But it was this moment where I just, I was so naive that I didn't know it was dangerous to defend myself so loudly. And I literally said to my boss, I go, keep writing these scenes, I dare you. I'm gonna start coming, I'm gonna start coming to set every day in a turtleneck.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  I love you.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Like, oh, my God. I look, I look back at that and I'm like, go off, girl. Like, who do you think you are?

• 26:25Speaker 00

  Literally, I'm like, where, where did you get these balls?

• 26:28Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Especially because I've spent so much of my life being like, I don't want to bother anyone.

• 26:34Speaker 00

  Right, but when it came to this.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  But in this moment, I just was like, no, no.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  You wrote, I wrote this line down, "You're the one with the fucking rack everyone wants to see," was something that was said to you.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  And I was like, is it appropriate for my boss, who's old enough to be my father, to say that to me on the phone? Like, you speak to women that way? Crazy. But the culture was so bad. I mean, remember the way they picked apart Brittany and her body? Remember the way they were, just the content they were making, the things they were doing? They, they treated us like, like blow up dolls.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  And it's so surreal to me. And I think, you know, as I've grown and I've understood how threatened men are by women's power, I go like, oh, how embarrassing for you that you want to write us to be so basic. You're so intimidated. Shame.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  You're right. It's the insecurity and they tried to reduce us to just the sexual beings. And it's like, it is, it's so loud, the way that you clearly view us, and we are constantly pushing back against that, but they refuse to see it. I wanted to know also because of how determined they were to sexualize this character in a way that was not initially pitched to you. You write about how a random guy filming you in public once referred to as a piece of meat, a TV prostitute. How do you think the way that you were forced essentially to portray Brooke impacted the public's perception of you as Sophia Bush in real life?

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Hugely.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Talk to me about that.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Because you have to remember, there was no ability to communicate for yourself at the time.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  There was no social media.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  No social media. You know, I was not writing op-eds. You know, pretty soon into this, I would, you know, five years in, I was on the campaign trail. But it's not like all of that was being, you know, recorded and transcribed or whatever. I, I definitely could see, particularly because she was so treated as a sex object, you know, hot girl cheerleader. And I was like, oh, poor you. But the interesting experience of it was not being taken seriously, not having my intellect trusted, having people be so shocked

• 29:11Speaker 01

  at my education, at my ability to be a writer, at all of these things, and to be reduced, reduced, reduced. Women were often reduced to being in service of a man, being in service of his desire. Everything was male gaze. And it was an interesting thing when the story about our boss broke and the, the writer who broke it, a woman who'd worked on our show, who I adore, was like, there's nothing I can quite, she essentially said, I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but how you can never really recover from the moment you realize you might only be in a room because you're a body part? And what that does to your understanding of your talent, your capabilities.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  And I'm not going to be so, I don't know, emotional as to be like, the world shouldn't be like this. It shouldn't, obviously, but what I, what I actually think we should look at, and what I want to ask men to look at is this is a whole layer of your life experience from the moment you leave your front door to the moment you're able to lock it safely behind you. Cause I don't count walking in, I count shutting it and locking it as I'm safe. It's a whole layer on top of your entire life, like saran wrap over the bowl that you guys never have to deal with, ever. And I'm not saying you don't have to deal with stuff. And I know you're not doing great, look at suicide rates. Men are clearly not happy either in a patriarchal system,

• 30:38Speaker 01

  but they don't have to deal with what we have to deal with. They don't have to laugh at jokes that aren't funny. They don't have to be told that being harassed or groped or sexualized or talked down to is just a compliment they should take and keep it moving. They don't have to reduce their experience to make other people comfortable. And the interesting thing about the dynamic on our, in our workplace, our boss being so insidious as to really try to make sure the girls wouldn't feel safe to be friends with each other, was he was afraid we were going to have these conversations. He was afraid of the gossip. He was afraid of the talking circle because the minute we had it.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  It all blew open.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  And it's like, because they're afraid, they then make you afraid of connecting because they recognize, first of all, it's a complete power imbalance. He holds the keys to your career and he's acting inappropriately.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  And so then he's recognizing, I easily can weaponize my power by making sure these women are all looking at each other. Like you're the one that's coming for my career and you're the one. And you guys never have enough time to actually look at who's the actual problem.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  Which is this man?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Totally. But by the, but even by, you know, the fifth season, like we would be, we would be in little group chats. And the new girls that were hired that year, we were like, if he invites you to dinner, call us. And then it was like, oh yeah, we're supposed to go to work and talk about the character. And we'd be like, where and what time? And two of us would show up and be like, oh what? You thought you were going to have dinner with a newbie without us? And we would act jealous so she wouldn't have to sit alone with him at a restaurant. And be like, so what are you going to do with her storyline? So that she wouldn't have to be alone with him.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Wow. So then you guys almost started creating this.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Well, we played into it a little bit.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  But it was helping these other women essentially. You're like, we.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  And sometimes, sometimes we'd be like, okay, if they're going to go, because you can't do that every week. You know, so then it would be like, okay, what if two of us go to the restaurant? If, if they're supposed to go and like, talk about the season arc at eight, why don't four of us go and get bar seats? We'll call the restaurant manager, we'll get bar seats at seven and we'll have a cocktail and apps and they'll walk in and we'll be like, what are you doing here? Oh my God, pull up chairs. Like we, we didn't leave each other alone.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  So you created a support network for each other.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  But women do that everywhere, in hospitals, at universities, like.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  We know how to have each other's backs.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  In a way that we shouldn't have to.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  That part.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  But we do it. And a lot of times it's an unsaid thing. And a lot of times it just goes and it, we don't talk about it.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  But it took years.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  For this showrunner who harassed you and countless others, as you're talking about on the One Tree Hill set, to be held accountable and you helped organize the effort. Can you explain how this came together?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, we, obviously we all, the great thing about having such a big group, you've got your massive group chat everyone's in, you've got your massive group chat of all the girls. You have the little side chats of like, oh, the three of us are going through the same thing at the same time. You know, these people are becoming parents, these people are going through breakups, these people are whatever. Like what, it's what we do forever. And we all were always talking about life and things. But as we were moving through 2017 and the Harvey Weinstein story broke and me too really exploded, by the way, in the way it should. And then they wanted to backlash it because God forbid, women actually say, we're not doing this to ourselves.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  If one in four of us has been harassed or assaulted by the age of 22, who do you think's doing it?

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  And that's by the age of 22, what do you think we've been through by the time we're 40? Like, hello? So we would, as, as that was happening, people were like, what do you think's going to happen? You know, it's been a while for us. What, what do you think's happening on his new show? What do you think's going to happen? What do you think's going to happen? And then we started getting, it was weird, you know, you'd see comments, you'd see things on Twitter. You'd see things on your Instagram. Sometimes you'd delete them because if you don't, then the comments turn into a whole other thing. And you're not doing that to protect a bad guy. You're like, I don't, I don't want this, I don't want this to turn into a beast that's going to bite someone else. Kind of a thing.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Some things we'd leave up and be like, oh, well, we didn't say it. You know, you, you have to kind of navigate. It's, it's a, it's a sort of labor you do and you figure out how to do it together. And we had been tagged in a tweet. It basically said like, whenever you're ready, ladies, tell us about your boss. And we were like, oh my God, could you imagine? Like, what do you think? What do you think? And the hard thing, I think for many of us was, it's not just my story to tell. You know, Hillary says that in the, in the portions of it I used in the book,

• 35:54Speaker 01

  um, of our conversations, I, I selected little bits of them to tell the story. And also frankly, to let it be forensic because, you know, men are who they are and might say like, oh, well you, you took that in a way she didn't mean it. So it, that part is very much like a forensic journalism section. And it was like, well, who do you think it might be? Because we all know what happened to us. On the sighting scale of what happened to women on our show, I was like, oh, I'm like on the lower end closer. I'm like on a, I'm up to like a four. There are women who experienced him at a 10.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  And it's not my place to tell their stories. And so when things started really bubbling up and then our writer posted her thread about her experiences with her writing partner on our show, she didn't name our showrunner and she didn't name our show, but people could look up what they worked on together in the year and then they knew. And so as soon as we, everybody knew and the news knew and we started getting calls, we were like, what are we going to do? And everybody was getting calls, everybody on the show. And when Daphne, obviously, you know, me and Hillary and a, you know, a couple of us were like on all the time.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  And when Daphne called me and was like, they just called my agents. I played your mom, like I didn't experience this with him, but they're calling my team. What are we going to do? And all of us knew some of each other's stories. And it was during this time that we came to know everyone's stories. And then we were tasked with this, not tasked, we, we, we were actually sort of weighted with the impossible task of how do we do justice and how do we not destroy anyone's privacy? And Daphne, to her credit, wise woman, she said, if we did a collective statement,

• 38:00Speaker 01

  we can anonymize who everything happened to, but we can be clear about what happened and how it happened to everyone.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  And then me, Annenberg, obsessed with the law, took a constitutional law class for fun. I was like, I got this. Because there are people who really like, can't talk about it. They are traumatized. And I was like, I've got my own trauma, most of mine doesn't come from that guy. But I can do this for the group. And it actually became an outlet for me to process the worst things that had happened to me. In a way, I could channel them into this. And I could hold everybody's hands and I could literally interview every single woman in the cast

• 38:50Speaker 01

  and say, in anonymized fashion, what words do, what words feel okay to you? What words are not okay to you? Even with the things that happened to you, if you don't want the actual word that defines the experience, what words are, what words make you feel safer? And every ounce of love I've ever carried for any woman in my whole entire life was like dripping out of that keyboard. And it felt important because it was accurate and it was true. And it was protective. And very often when our stories get told, we're not protected, we're just used for more popcorn. And then to, to put it into the world.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  And then within a few days to see the response letter, there were 18 of us who signed our letter to see the response letter of 25 women from the show he was working on at that time. I was just like, this is why we say believe women. Why would we lie about this? Look how many of us there are and you still want to go, well, they're actresses, they got something out of it. Well, like, yeah, I've also been an actress on a Shonda Rhimes show. I would work for her until the day I die. Love working for Shonda. Never had to, never had to do this to get something out of Grey's Anatomy. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not a requirement. It's different.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  It's so incredible because I think there's so many women who.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  I have chills.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  No, I do too. Because it's like, I don't think there, there is understandably a lot of women who don't even know where to begin to have their voice be heard.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  And so to be able to gather the way that you did and to collectively come together.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  I was really proud of us.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  It's incredible.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  And, and it was really.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  It restored my faith in a lot of things. It gave us back a very ferocious connection. It gave us all a second chance. It gave us something I think we didn't know that we needed. And it mattered to me because it felt a little bit like the scales were getting balanced. You know, it felt a little bit like every single woman I know has a story and every single man wants to say he's never done anything wrong and doesn't know a man who does. And I'm like, guys, the math ain't mathin'.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  No, then like literally who's doing it?

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, literally who's doing it. And I remember when some of the, some conversations were had recently and someone said, if you, if you get a woman so drunk that she's blacking out to have sex with her, that's assault. And a guy responded on Twitter and was like, so that basically means every guy's raped someone. And we were like, you're so close to getting it. You know, like to, to, to force someone in any way is not okay.

• 41:47Speaker 00

  And they don't even see it that way.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  And they don't see it that way. And this, for me, the disconnect between what they understand and what reality is, the disconnect between how few men who commit those crimes against women are ever prosecuted.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  It felt like we put a weight on the good side of the scale and it helped me because there were experiences I had also reported that were not ever rectified or taken seriously. So I had a lot, I had had a lot of weights on the shitty scale at that time in my life. And the experience of doing this with, with my girlfriends,

• 42:32Speaker 01

  the, the realness it gave to us, like, we always loved each other, but then we were like, no, no, I don't love you as my coworker. I love you as a person. Like, I didn't just put my weight on the other scale. I got to take 18 of those shitty little weights and move them to this side. And it, and it mattered. You know, we didn't fix the system, but we, we were, we were no longer a group that could be ignored. And it mattered to me.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And I think what was so, it's so profound what you're saying. And also, I think what's so hard as women is there are so many other things that have happened that you never got the justice or whatever. And so then we'll take a win as a win for anything.

• 43:25Speaker 00

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• 44:49Speaker 00

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• 45:30Speaker 00

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• 46:11Speaker 00

  So Daddy Gang, if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's better H E L P dot com slash daddy. As we're talking about, you know, the rise of this show and the success of this show, like you said, then there were relationships that come from

• 46:39Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 46:40Speaker 00

  You know, just naturally, sometimes people get into relationships and this topic was on your do not ask list for a while in the past, right?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  I mean, never respected, by the way, but always on the list.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  Never, of course not, of course not. But it was on your do not ask list.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  And you do, in this memoir, open up about your relationship with Chad Michael Murray for kind of the first time in length. What were some of your just like biggest hesitations about sharing this part of your life?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  The thing that's a little hard to swallow, when you share your life and your writing makes you a famous writer, people are like, wow, book changed my life. When you're already famous and people have opinions about you and you share your story, people are like, can't get over it, da, da, da. And it's, it's a really weird dichotomy where you're sort of not supposed to say anything, but if you're a person who's done the work to heal from anything, who's journeyed through your life, attempting to be aware, who wants to be accountable, who wants to grow, who goes to therapy, you have thoughts about how things that happened to you shaped you. And when I said I don't want to write about it at all, my editor was like, I hate to break it to you.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Google exists. So I think that's like the second line in the chapter. And what felt important to me was to say, we were kids. We're older, we're all, we're all adults, we're all parents, no harm, no foul. Wish you well. Pray, praise the adult you are. Hope it's mutual. But as a young person in a highly pressurized situation, as a woman, I trusted every single other person in the room more than I trusted myself.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  And there were times when I called it and I allowed myself to be talked back in. And I didn't, I really just didn't read the writing on the wall. And I didn't want to disappoint other people. And I didn't know how to say the hard thing when everyone else's expectations were wrapped up in it. And I think we've all been there. But what I hope you learn is choose yourself. Just choose yourself.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  And I think also so much of what you do share, the themes within it are so also helpful as someone who is a fan and watched the show to understand what you were going through on that set. While this was happening behind the scenes, the fact that you guys were having to interact and still, whether it be love interests or friends on the show, and this is all happening behind the scenes. It is very helpful to paint the story of your life and give us more insight into who you are as a resilient woman in very challenging dynamic.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  To think that our boss, who was old enough to be our parent, was like, oh, these kids are going through something incredibly traumatizing. I'm gonna rewrite them together, make them do intimate scenes together, demand that wardrobe makes them be skin to skin to look naked in those scenes together. Like, an adult made that choice for two, essentially two children. And it, for me, is just so crazy. And so there are lessons I, I obviously want women or anyone to have, which is

• 50:16Speaker 01

  if

• 50:18Speaker 01

  If you are sure something is wrong and everyone's telling you you're crazy, you're probably not crazy.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  I love how you reference that because again, this is a theme I want to talk about, which is getting information from people, but not trusting yourself, but trusting yourself and going with your gut when you're young. At the time, Hillary Burton was one of your closest friends on set, Ms. Peyton Sawyer, we love you. And she explicitly told you, I'm assuming when you and Chad started kind of clearly liking each other and people on set were seeing this, she told you, quote, "Do not date him." What was her reasoning behind this warning to you as a friend?

• 50:59Speaker 01

  They had worked together on another show. Wasn't a great experience. You know, it was good advice and I just didn't, I didn't have the, I didn't have the wherewithal or the experience. Um, there was a while where my friends used to joke like, look up gullible in the dictionary and you'll see her face.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  How did it impact? Cause I have been there. We've all been there with a girlfriend where they're like, trust me, don't date him. I know his past. And when you do end up being like, love you, but I'm, I, I need to see for myself. Sometimes it can impact the friendship. How did that impact you and Hillary, just in general as friends?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, it's interesting because for years I thought that's why we stopped being two peas in a pod. Obviously years later, when all of us started to try to unpack our experiences with our boss, I was like, oh my God, this is why communication is so important. Because I felt so much shame and then she was right. And then again, about who he was then, I know the trolls are going to have a field day. Like we're, it's all good. And so for me, the, the distance was like, I didn't listen. She was right. And

• 52:15Speaker 01

  that was it. Like I didn't trust her. And years later, we all came to learn, our boss was telling every woman on the show, stuff about the other women, stuff supposedly that the other women were saying. And we did not, I think something people don't understand about that environment is it's not like you go to school with these people, or that's your friend, or that's someone who lives in your dorm. You have to do a job together.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  This is your job.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  So you try to never rock the boat. You don't want to risk it. You don't want to fight. But sometimes that means things go unsaid for years. And so when we finally started to unpack all the really crazy puppet mastering our boss was doing, I was like, oh my God, I thought you,

• 53:05Speaker 00

  This was over a boy.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  I thought you cut me off over a boy. And she was like, well, I heard that you, and I was like, wait, what? And that was when we started to be able to repair. And it is something I talk about later in the book, like this gorgeous thing that all of us women got to do together. And one of our other friends, coworkers, sisters in this crazy journey we took, said like, the thing I'm actually the most mad about is the years I missed being friends with all of the rest of you, because I believed what he said.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  And that's why I think the book is so illuminating too, when women are kind of siloed into their corners and you feel as though you can't talk to the other woman. There is a reason someone is making you feel that way because they don't want you to talk. And so the fact that you're like, okay, you gave me advice, maybe not to date Chad, then I'm dating Chad. And I'm thinking it's because I'm dating Chad that we're not as close.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  We're both telling totally separate stories about why there's distance between us.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Completely. And then I also want to talk about, because I think this is a relatable thing, which again, we have so much to keep going through. But when you talk about the doubting of yourself, which is so relatable, because I have been in a relationship that was very traumatizing where he cheated and it was like him telling me he didn't cheat. And then you're believing that person.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  I was essentially dropped into my own rom com. Felt like a fairy tale. And I would imagine that that swirl, I would imagine it was a swirl for him as well. You know, for me, I think for anyone, it's like, if you don't want to be in something, tell someone and leave. If you're not ready to be committed, tell someone and go. If you're like, change your circumstances. But I also understand that's hard.

• 54:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think that's also fair for you to be like, that feeling of the fairy tale in the beginning, I've been there. Every woman has been there where you're like, you are still holding on to the fantasy of those original days where there were no problems. It's fun. We're on the show together. There's no way he's cheating. And even though people are like, kind of telling you it's happening, you're going to take this person's word because you want to believe them. And you understandably are saying, I, I, there's no way that this, you would lie. Cause I wouldn't lie. Just why wouldn't you?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Well, also, why, I think sort of like, why would anyone? If you want to be out on the scene, like go.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Do you have any insight now, when you look back of like, oh, why was I kind of feeling like those red flags?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Were okay to push aside because was there anything that you were feeling fulfilled with?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  I, I don't really know, but what I can see, and what's the ugly thing where you really think you've processed all your stuff and you go like, turns out there were a few crumbs left under the rug. That'll be fun. Yeah. I totally want to clean that up again. Was to realize I could see these major moments in my life from childhood, pre the show, during the show, after this period, after that show, on other shows in my personal life, where I would go, oh, but this is the reason life is hard. Like at this time that you're referencing, my mom was sick. My mom was starting chemo. Of course I thought I was unhappy.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  I see.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 56:22Speaker 00

  There's like a,

• 56:23Speaker 01

  And, and I've had to realize, oh, I have a desire to identify things outside myself as the causes of stress or unhappiness, because I have that good girl syndrome where I want to be grateful. And I'm so lucky to have the job I have. And I'm so lucky to have the privilege I have. And yes, my life might feel really hard and I might be a little depressed or I might be super stressed, but so many other people have it worse. Buck up. I look at myself at 21 and I go, sweetheart, you were looking for any reason for why it felt bad. And I get it.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  No, I, I love that you're saying that because again, a woman's intuition is never wrong, but I was thinking about it.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  But we're not taught to feel it or trust it.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  Of course not. And you're literally explaining that exact situation. You're like, I am going through the motion of this situation and this relationship. And there's so many things that are screaming in my face being like, Sophia, this ain't it, girl. Like the beginning to the, to the engagement.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  I was like, look at all the party colors. It's a parade.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  Right. And then you're like, oh, I must be sad because my mom's sick instead of like, well, there's another cheating rumor or whatever. Yeah. The day of your wedding, and this is something that I need to just hear your opinion on for women listening. And if you have advice, I think a lot of women wonder, okay.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Is this just like pre wedding nerves? Because a lot of people do feel that of like, this is the craziest day of my life. Oh my God. Oh my God. And then there's that verse when you're like, is this a deeper intuition and my gut is telling me, maybe this is not the person for me. And like, how do you learn the difference?

• 58:04Speaker 01

  I think it takes a really long time. And there's no roadmap for it. And you have to find it for yourself. You know, you hear people say, marriage is hard. But if hard is suffering, that's not the same thing. You hear people say, trust your gut. But how do you know the difference between your gut screaming at you and normal anxiety that you hear everybody has? I learned how to disassociate like a pro. I, I can't make that everybody else's fault. I have to take accountability for how fine I seem a lot of the time when I'm not, and learn to be open enough to say, no, this isn't minor.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  I am not okay. I'm saying okay, but I'm covered in a rash from head to toe. Maybe that's a red flag and not an allergic reaction. You know, and it's taken me a long time to learn that because the thing that has been the most praised in my work, I can do 110 hour work week. I can do 17 hours on set and be back the next day on a forced call and be on the next show and be, and then fly on a red eye to go do press the next morning and fly. But I can do anything you need me to do. That is the greatest asset in my line of work. And that is what makes you a shell of a human in your personal life.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  I was going to say, it's like, it's your superpower and it's also your curse.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  My curse.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Because, okay.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  And it took me a very long time, probably until I turned 40, to go, I think I've been fine and good in a lot of time when I really wasn't. And I can't change that, but what I know is that I want to live, I want to live the rest differently. I don't want to look fine and be miserable. I don't want to look happy and be struggling to get out of bed in the morning. I don't want to be saying, you should, you have so much to be grateful for. Be grateful. Like gratitude is a punishment and not a pleasure. I want it to feel good. I want that for all of us.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  I think that is so important that you're highlighting that because I appreciate that we can all recognize when we're younger, we have, we don't have the tools, especially as women, like you said.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  We had no tools.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  No, no, no. Literally in 2003, it was like, we're just happy.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  Happy, we're happy you're here.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Happy you're here. And I think that that is such a testament to like, the, the way that you have to just sometimes get through, like you said, you learned how to dissociate. And now you're at a point in your life where you're starting to like, okay, I'm actually able to start to recognize the rash on my body. When something is physically saying, we are rejecting what's happening.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  These are things you're learning, but back then you're like, I'm ignoring and I'm just pushing through because I'm getting rewarded for pushing through. And your gut was right.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Like I said, a woman's intuition, it's always right. You had a conversation with Chad's groomsmen.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Or one of them. And you picked up the phone and you called this guy. Why did you even pick up the phone and call? What was, what was getting too loud to ignore? And what was confirmed on that phone call?

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Something in my brain was like, why didn't he show up that day? And then part of me was like, but if he didn't show up that day, he would have certainly called me to tell me if it was like about me, right? And something in me was like, no.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Cause also, how do you do that to your friend? Like, that's, that's a really sticky position to be in. And, you know, to his credit, like when I called and asked, he was like, why didn't you call me that morning? And I was like, if you make this my fault.

• 1:02:01Speaker 00

  So wait, you're saying the groomsmen is saying, why didn't you call me the morning of the wedding?

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  And, and you're like,

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  And I just was like,

• 1:02:08Speaker 00

  because he dropped out. He dropped out of the wedding and he basically told you, girl.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Didn't tell me anything. Just, oh, he's not going to make it. He's sick. It was a special thing that he was willing to be honest. I wish more men were. And, you know, I, I also said, we were young, like, again, we were young. But what I think is the most important thing to me, and I, you know, I didn't talk about this in the book. I wrote about, um, some of the friendships I made with women, who I think the world would probably think I would never speak to, um, that I really cherish. And frankly, when I like, look at the landscape, I'm like badass, badass, badass, badass. Like in pretty decent company.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  We, are you saying that the people that he was cheating on you with are, you're now like, oh, I'm,

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  A couple.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  And, and it's like, again, I, I know the adult, the adults we are are completely different people from who we were. But even the, the child I don't relate to that he was, I'm like, you did have kind of great taste, bro. And like, congrats. You crushed.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  You're like, no, that's actually kind of nice when you're like, yeah, I get it.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  I'm like, I get it. Like, I actually get it. And by the way, like,

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  Sophia.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  I'm open to all people. I'm like, I get it. Hot.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  You're like, actually,

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  I'm like,

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  I don't even know if I want you anymore.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  I know. I'm just like, damn, like in a lineup, I'd take any one of us. So like, okay.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  No, that's really beautiful.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  And that feels nice.

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  That, and also finding a way to not actually pit it on the woman.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  And just being like, oh my God, you know what? Let's become friends.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Because we have a lot in common, clearly.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  And I love, it's like, what a weird blessing. Like you don't know where, you don't know where your little sparkle bits are going to come from. And like, it's kind of sparkly.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  No, that's really beautiful. And I do love how you do take these moments that are, most people are like, I'm crying on the floor. And you're like, come on, let's go, let's be friends.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  I mean, we all did it. And like, I had, I had people cry in my arms and it was, you know, and I'm like, I'm here, whatever you need.

• 1:04:21Speaker 00

  We're going to survive.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  But also like, shouldn't we have a marg and do something else?

• 1:04:26Speaker 00

  We should always have a marg.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

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• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  Something you also write about in your book that I think is again, very relatable for women is this second marriage that you experienced with your ex-husband Grant. And you write about in the book, ultimately, like you realized you two were maybe better off as friends.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  And maybe you should have never gotten married. What do you remember about that feeling of like, ooh, maybe this isn't right?

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  I Esther Perelled myself to death. Because I said, the smartest woman I know says, you can't expect what you used to get from a village, from one person. And I have more than any one person could want for their life from my community of friends. I overindex on love, commitment, service, music, laughter, comedy, creativity, spontaneity. Like I have multiple friends that are like, oh yeah, Sophia is my friend I can call and say, you want to go to Africa on Thursday? And she's like, yeah, because they want to go too. Like I have it. And so in a way, and I, and I don't think I'd processed this yet either.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  I, I had closed off so many tender parts of myself in the years leading up to 2020, as I tried to put myself back together. So I think, I think I'd really done like a number on myself and said, I, I don't need so much. I'm okay. I have enough. And, and in the way that I had always gone left, left hadn't worked. I decided to make a right. And we had a big audacious project to work on that we were both really passionate about. And it was great. And I, as much as we are not each other's person, I will say, I deeply admire

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  that energy, tendency, trait in him. And I can admire it in myself. And I absolutely see how we mistook a,

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  a melding on something really important as, as meaning it was important that, that we were important.

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  So during the kind of like fallout of that relationship, you began dating former US soccer star, Ashlyn Harris.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  The internet had a lot to say. So,

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Really did.

• 1:09:04Speaker 00

  I would love to hear from you. How did you guys meet?

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  On Instagram in 2015. Like all, all the girlies though, and it was cool. You know, remember how pure the internet used to be? It was like so nice. And everybody was just big upping each other all the time. And the team was playing and crushing and, you know, we were doing what you did then. Nothing was cringe. We were posting, we were tagging. We were like cheersing everyone and, you know, having a time. And my best friend and I were like up at four in the morning, watching games. We were living together at the time. Like we were just having fun.

• 1:09:39Speaker 00

  So you meet on Instagram and then you randomly, like you guys eventually meet in real life?

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. In real life, finally in 2019.

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  We went to an event that a bunch of women on the team threw. And it was like an artist and activist luncheon. And I remember, I remember how fun it was because a bunch of us had met by then. And we were like, ah, you know, you have the moment where you're like, off the internet, finally.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  And so at this point, you're going through a divorce.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no. This is 2019. This is before I even started dating my ex.

• 1:10:15Speaker 00

  I see. Okay. So then we go through the divorce.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  And what was surreal to me was as I started to be open about my experience with my best friends, I was like barely hanging on by a thread. I was in London alone and I'm going to do a panel for a brand partnership to, shocker, not shocker, raise money to get women elected and then invest in women's sports. I know this shit like the back of my hand. I don't open the email. I'm so sorry. Please don't be mad at me. I did good on the panel. I, I'm like, I don't need to prep for this. I have to get on a plane, go and do this, pretend I'm okay. And then fly back and do eight shows this week on the West End. And I get taken to this dinner and all my friends are there. I had no idea. And everyone was like, are you dumb?

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Like this is the moment, there's a whole women's sports build out. I was like, guys, I don't, I don't know. I'm here for 16 hours. And it was such a gift to see people.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  But it wasn't like, I didn't have the thing that I think people know, which is like, woman we know to be with a man sees hot soccer player says there she is, like,

• 1:11:24Speaker 00

  I see.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  I didn't have that. I had known her forever.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  So Ashlyn was at that dinner?

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yes, by the way, with 10 of our other friends.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  I see, I see.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  I was like, what's happening? You know, shrieking like a sorority girl. I'm so lucky.

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  And when you guys were friends, like, what was your understanding of her relationship and her marriage?

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Oh, we weren't friends like that.

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  I wasn't like in the inner circle, knowing what was up. The other thing that I know from going through, obviously not the same exact experience, but going through a similar experience and also having so many other women in my life go through it that summer. Everywhere I turned, everyone was going through it. Like, I don't know. I didn't, I didn't even know the inside information on how she'd gotten there until everyone finally had a place to talk. And I think there's a really hard thing about, there's a really hard thing about the shame. And when it looks really good from the outside.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  And I know the feeling. Like, I posted about how happy I was on my anniversary and I'd already told my best friend, I'm not going to be able to stay in this marriage. And then I thought to myself, but if I don't celebrate this, the internet's going to come for me. And if by some magical measure, we work through it, it'll be messy forever. So the, the public thing adds a layer because you keep performing.

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  You keep pretending it's okay, even when you're not sleeping in the same bed, even when you're living on separate floors of your house, even when your parents know you are not sleeping at all and miserable, like, and when I started to realize how many people had been doing that, my first reaction wasn't, this is great for me. Like, my reaction was, what does everybody need? Let me connect everybody. Talk to my best friend. She's going through it with a toddler. Who needs a lawyer? Who needs an apartment? Do you need my Amazon wishlist for like kitchen utensils? You know?

• 1:13:30Speaker 00

  And hearing you guys, yes, you're going through all this also, and it sounds like there were so many people in your life going through similar things.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:37Speaker 00

  And

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  It was hard.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  You kind of saying like, that dinner, you were like, it wasn't like this movie moment where it was like, so how did you guys go from having a friendship together to then like, it becomes romantic?

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  There began the thing that happens where everyone starts sending the Instagram profiles of the people they're getting set up with. A profile of a very beautiful person was sent. I said something uncharacteristically mean and was like, oh, I don't like to talk about women like that. And I was like, am I okay?

• 1:14:08Speaker 00

  Oh, you were jealous. So you're saying like, they were saying like, they were going to set Ashlyn up with someone?

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, the lesbian mafia in New York was like, just sending the Instagram profiles.

• 1:14:18Speaker 00

  And you were like, wait, I'm jealous.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  And I was like, what is this feeling? I don't like it. And then for me, it's also like, well, I can't, all, all, all my friends are like, you have to say something. I'm like, I'm not going to say something.

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  But also, Sophia, you had never, correct me if I'm wrong, you had never been in a relationship with a woman.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Not like a real relationship. No.

• 1:14:38Speaker 00

  Right. So how did you make sense of, I'm feeling these feelings?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  And then, and then actualizing them?

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  But I think that's probably why, like, hello, is anybody home? It took me so long. I'd known her for so long. There's no like, yeah, she's one of the most beautiful people who's ever walked the face of the planet. Like, we've all told her how hot she is forever. Like, there was no like, wow, I'm really, wow. It was more like, do you ever have that moment where a group of people are talking and two of you say the same thing at the same time? It was that. It was like, well, today's brutal lesson is blah, blah, blah, blah. And then like, we'd both send the same text in response to someone else's. And I'd be like, what is that? You know, there were really hard conversations about, for a lot of us, like, what we'd been fighting for for so long

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  that just wasn't there. How do you rectify it? Why did you stay? Why did you double down? And a lot of our reasons for those things that like, I don't mean to be rude, but aren't anybody's business, like, were the same.

• 1:15:42Speaker 00

  So you were emotionally connected?

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And as the, as the time wore on, I just was like, oh my God, is this like a, is this the invisible string? Like, was I always supposed to, oh my God. And it was really surreal. And then I had to pace around my house for about two weeks. And my, my best friend who's here today took videos of me being like, literally, you turned into Rain Man. You were just like walking around the house going like, oh, boy. But I, like, I, I was like making sounds. I couldn't, I, I, I like, I broke my own brain.

• 1:16:15Speaker 00

  Why? Because you were just like, I, I'm, I'm want to be with this woman? Like, it's almost like something just came over you where you were like, oh my God, I'm attracted to you in a way?

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  It wasn't like, it wasn't, it wasn't that, God, this sounds so gay. I'm like, it wasn't just like that I was attracted to her. It was like, I went like, oh, are you, like, are you the other piece of the puzzle? Like, does every weird little edge fit? And I wouldn't have thought these puzzle pieces were related, but now they're the last two and they click? Like, what?

• 1:16:45Speaker 00

  And so did you, when, did you tell her this?

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm, I'm a little bit of like a chicken shit. But this whole like, oh, must have like gotten drunk and had an affair. I was like, anyone who thinks that was a casual leap for me is, doesn't know me. Um, no. And I was so nervous to like, to say something to her that I did it at an event for a friend that I was only at because I was on a stopover on my way on a trip with my family. And I was like, yeah, I'll do like a layover for the night, stay with my best friend in Tribeca. We'll go to our friend's big presentation. Like, we're so happy for her. It's this big moment for her company. And then I'm going to go get on a plane. And I was like, well, I'm leaving the country. So this is perfect because I'm leaving the country. And if she says no,

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  I can cry into my mother's arms for nine days overseas and come back and pretend this never happened.

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  So what did you say?

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  I mumbled a lot. She had, it's so embarrassing. She had to sort of figure it out. Because I was like, you know, the group and so grateful. And it's been so nice to like, have this and probably wouldn't have lived through the summer without you guys. And the, these, these are so nice and happy for her brand. That was wonderful.

• 1:18:04Speaker 00

  She's like, Sophia.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  And she's like, are you having a stroke? Like, what's going on? And I was like, you know, and, and it's, it's been so nice. Like, the dinner we all had together after the big event was so lovely, but like, and this is nice, you know, I'm glad I get to have lunch before my flight, but maybe we should just like have a meal, not with everyone. I've never been less cool. She literally was like, are you asking me on a date? And I was like, yes. I was, it was terrifying.

• 1:18:38Speaker 00

  And when you went on your first date, were you as terrified?

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  It, yes. I, I tried on 900 tops. But like, you know, it was such a weird thing because, and I can feel it, like, like my mouth is dry and my fingers are tingly. Like, even thinking about it, my body is back there. Because it was this really surreal thing. I was like, I've sat next to this person so many times. I've like sorority girl jumped into like her and other friends' arms at events and like, charged the patriarchy and called about the things and congratulated each other on the life stuff that looked great online. And I, and, and, and suddenly, someone I

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  never blinked at, I can't breathe around. And later, obviously, we both talked about like, it was the weirdest thing. It felt like we, it felt like, it felt like meeting a new person. It was like every, everything in my body just like clicked. And I was like, oh, this is what alignment feels like?

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  Amazing. Now, let's talk about

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  And you have to deal with

• 1:19:53Speaker 00

  This is to deal with, oh my gosh, you step out for the first time as a couple, basically.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Well, no, we didn't. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be really clear.

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  Okay, you know, this is good to clarify.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  You know, outing Brooke Davis felt really fun for the tabloids. And the only way to stop the monstrosity of it was to, to say like, I can show you this isn't true. And my team was like, yeah, see, ridiculous. They, they're friends. And I went, um, I took her to dinner last week. And then they said, are you going to take her to dinner again? And I said, well, considering, I feel like I got oxygen for the first time in my life, yeah. And then they said, well, we can't lie. We can't say none of it's true. We can say it's not true, but they did go to dinner

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  last week and it was a date. And then it was

• 1:20:48Speaker 00

  Can you clarify for everyone, when everyone thinks there was overlap?

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Two people who had filed for divorce and lived in separate residences from their exes went to dinner.

• 1:21:00Speaker 00

  Both of you filed for divorce?

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  Okay. So you can say there was no overlap?

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  I can say that. Everybody wishes they could have done a million things differently at the time. Like, do I wish that instead of flying home and stopping in New York because I already had tickets to a comedy show and taking her on a date, I'd taken her on a date six weeks later? Like, yeah, of course I do. But I can't change it. And, and what I can't do is change

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  I can't change my reality for anyone else. And I also can't be my own personal definition of insanity, which is try the same thing over and over again with no result. I'm never going to change anybody's mind who made it up. And I don't, as much as there's like the part of me that was raised by my mother, who was raised for many years in the Bronx, that's like, you know, Michelle Obama can go high, you want to go low, meet me in the gutter. Like, there's also a part of me that goes, I've done too much work on myself to hurt someone when I've been hurt. And I think especially when there's children involved, especially when, when

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  the things that run away because they're fun for strangers. And that's true for all of us. They're fun for strangers. When they affect people's jobs, when they destroy someone's ability to provide for their family, when they, when they destroy someone's credibility unfairly, like, I don't want to be party to that. And that's a really hard practice because all I want to do is be like, here's all the information. And if you had the information, the vibes would be different. And what's it gonna do?

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  How did the two of you handle though, aside from all the speculation? Like, how did you guys handle such negativity at a time where you were also just trying to grow this relationship and have a good time while, and then the media is saying, you know, homewrecker and, and this and all of this. And you're also, for the first time, you know, this is people writing about how you're queer and all this. Like, there's a lot that was happening at that time. Like, how did you two stay solid in that?

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Um, you know, strike season was really helpful. And, because everything was quiet. And it was really just, let's be quiet. You know, and, and there were moments where I was like, well, I wish I would have said this and I wish we would have done this. And I went, quiet. For me, I don't think I would have made it through that had I not known her for so long and had I not seen, had I not seen the work and the sadness and the heartbreak and, and the absolute crushing experience of, I can't keep saying, I can't do this anymore and staying.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  And to, to have shared that experience with her, with two of my friends that divorced each other, my God, with my best friend divorcing her ex-husband, with another friend who was going to get a divorce and then went back. Like, it was, I had seen so much that most people don't get to see when like, potentially beginning to connect with someone. I feel like we had skipped to the end of the chapter already before I even knew the chapter could have like, or the next chapter could have a, a romantic angle. And because I knew, I said like, I'm just gonna be here. And we were quiet. And my best friend showed up with her son. And then she went home and I stayed.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  And other friends came. And then they went home and I stayed. And we just stayed. And it was awful and painful. And to be clear, not just painful on my side and her side, it's painful for everybody. It, it was, it was dirty. I watched it traumatize her. You know, there are, there's a lot of work she's had to do to not be held under. And, you know,

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  we're still really fucking privileged. So like, I, I, I don't know.

• 1:25:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  But, yeah, it was, it was, it was clearly very hard for everyone. And it became like a sport and that was ugly.

• 1:25:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then I think that's what, the internet loves anything negative. And so I think whenever there can be something that's fun to pry on and be negative, it's almost, which is hard because it is personal, but it's not personal to the internet. They don't care who they're doing it to. It's just so fun and people get off on it. And unfortunately, it's like, no, these are our real lives. But you have, um, clearly, things have worked out.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Speaker 00

  Because I see that ring. And you are now married.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:26:06Speaker 00

  Congratulations.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:26:08Speaker 00

  Um, why was this something you wanted to like, keep quiet at first?

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Um, well, we spent so much time being quiet. You know, and we went through a lot of really hard things. And then slowly, life just got more and more beautiful. And a friend of ours was asking a question, like, considering in a relationship with a new guy and marriage was really important to him and she'd been divorced and da, da, da. And we had this like conversation, like, how do you do it again? And I was like, I mean, don't fucking ask me, like, I haven't gotten it right, but I would do it again. Because I think, I think the thing, I think it's beautiful.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  I think we grin when we talk about it. Like, your eyes like go up at the corner when you talk about your husband. Like, I think we have that because it's meaningful. And it was like sort of an interesting moment, you know, because you have that conversation and then like, you kind of look at each other and you're like, woo. And it became a conversation for a long while. And there's so many, there's so many pieces and bits of it where you have to untangle what you got wrong and then you have to really look at why you wanted it in the first place. And what do you believe in? And the conversations about what we believe in, about

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  her grandparents that she looked up to, about relationships that I've been lucky enough to bear witness to in my life, like, I've seen it. And I think the reason I've tried it, probably when I shouldn't have, is because I believe in it so much. And then it was this sort of thing where it, it was a conversation for a really long time. And it was like, yeah, well, we'll figure it out. Like tomorrow, like next year, I don't know.

• 1:28:10Speaker 00

  Wait, was there a proposal?

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's for me. I did it.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  No way.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Turns out, I was never supposed to be asked, I was supposed to ask.

• 1:28:21Speaker 00

  Are you proud of how you did it?

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  I am. And it was so sweet. And then we were like, okay. Like, Tuesday?

• 1:28:30Speaker 00

  Stop.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  Like, next week? When? And it's an interesting thing, you know, when, when your life has been public for so long. I mean, and hers is longer than mine. Like, you get recruited for the national team at 13, like, what does that mean? But mine, public teen television is a crazy kind of public too. And when you kind of recover from what the public commodifying you does to you, you don't want it to happen again. And we'd both done the big Vogue wedding and the thing and they were beautiful. And we really tried our best and we really loved those people, but we were not compatible.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  And now I'm with someone who finishes my sentences and vice versa, who makes me laugh in moments that laughter feels impossible and in all the other moments too. And I just was like, I don't need it. I don't need to design a dress and I don't need to plan a thing and I don't need a destination. By the way, I love a destination wedding. Like, I want to come to your destination wedding, but I didn't need anything. And it was like the most perfect day. And my best friend was coming to visit with her kid. And we were like, cool, so this weekend and you'll do it? And then her best friend came and we literally prepped food, put it on the smoker,

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  got married in the backyard, had dinner. And it was...

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  It was the best, most perfect day. I was the most in my body I have ever been. We sobbed and we laughed and it was exactly right. And I'm so thankful. And it, it was like the very last stitch I put on every wound that had ever had a claw in it, that I was sewing up for myself. I was like, oh yeah, I had to do all of this for me, but the last steps of it, I can't do without her. And that was it. And I love her.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  It's crazy to literally be moved to tears because you are so happy and grateful. Because gratitude used to be kind of toxic for me and now it's like,

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  I don't have words for it and I have a lot of words.

• 1:31:14Speaker 00

  Well, why it's also such a beautiful, kind of almost end point where for this book and for this conversation is like, we started this and we talked about that young girl at USC who was just like eager and excited and she got this job. And so much of the book and our conversation has really been about, yes, the high highs and the low lows and just like all of this self exploration that it takes a lot of trial and error to get yourself to a point where you can actually advocate for what you want. You know what you want and you're able to be in your body and experience life in a way that you deserve and you want.

• 1:31:58Speaker 00

  Right? And so to hear you talk about these other relationships that you had and like having a gut feeling something was off and then getting into that other relationship and being like, I think maybe I was actually asking for not enough because I was convincing myself that maybe if I just asked for this one thing, that will be fine and I can fill my cup elsewhere. And then to finally get to a place in your life where you're like, I was in my body after dissociating from things, to get to a place where you're sitting here now being like, of course there's work to still always be done.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Oh my God, yeah.

• 1:32:30Speaker 00

  But all of these reps essentially, it's only gotten better. And I think that's such a beautiful message to leave women with because I do think we can get really, really in our heads about, oh my God, I feel like I'm, maybe I shouldn't leave this marriage because can I even get better? And the answer is always yes.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  The answer is always yes. And this idea that it's too late or you're too old or who are you to want more? That's patriarchy. That is crazy. We don't need it. And for me, like, it was the most profound thing to love the life inside my four walls, to not need to always be moving, to not be cramming every single day with so much work. And even afterward, like, it was the most perfect day. And then I've never had something that's mine. And we got to tell our friends in person. We flew home to see my dad for his birthday

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  and told my parents. We flew, like, we literally, we took all the time we wanted so we could tell every single one of our favorite people face to face, show them photos, be together. And then it was like, okay, everyone that I don't want to find out on the internet, which is how everyone in my life finds out about everything, knows. And now I don't have to keep being like, well, my partner, you know, I was like, God, this is so, and I almost, I've, I've like almost slipped and been like, my, well, you know, well, what was I saying?

• 1:34:12Speaker 00

  Say it, girl. You can say it now.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  I'm like, that's my wife. That's my wife.

• 1:34:17Speaker 00

  How good does that feel?

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Incredible. Hot. Daddy.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  I'm very into it. I'm very into it.

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  Sophia, I am so happy for you. I really will say, as obviously much as we covered in this conversation, the book, there's so much in it and there's so much more detail that I urge people to go read it and truly just like enjoy it because there's so much that you can take away and find yourself in it.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  And there are joyful stories.

• 1:34:51Speaker 00

  There are.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  And there are, we only touched on a few. I mean, they're big.

• 1:34:54Speaker 00

  We got in our feels today.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we did the monopoly board mostly, which is great.

• 1:34:58Speaker 00

  No, and I appreciate you going there with me today because you are so bright and it was so just enjoyable to listen to you just talking about your life in a way, again, that I think we really were able to extract a lot of good advice and wisdom. And I think people are going to take so much from this. And also you're just our favorite. And, and obviously growing up, watching you and continuing to watch you and what you do, like, it was such a pleasure to sit down with you. I knew we would have such a good conversation. Also, this has been a long time coming.

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  I know. We've really.

• 1:35:29Speaker 00

  What was that? Years ago that we saw each other in Paris?

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  Yes, the Olympics.

• 1:35:33Speaker 00

  Yes. And we were like, girl, when are we gonna do a like a needed sit down?

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  I know. But this is the perfect time.

• 1:35:40Speaker 00

  It was the perfect time. And again, like your life in the public eye, now you having this memoir and having something that you want to say and that you're sharing and you're feeling comfortable doing it on your terms. I'm so grateful that you felt comfortable to come and sit here with me and share so much with me. And I really can't wait to just like continue to watch your career and your relationship of whatever you feel comfortable sharing online. Like, we, I'm rooting for you and I wish you the best. And thank you so much for sharing so many good stories and good advice.

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. This was so fun. I, we love you guys. And this is, this is special. So thanks for having me.

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

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