Paris Jackson: Love, Loss, & Listening to Your Intuition

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Paris Jackson. Paris gets real with Alex about growing up quickly with the entire world watching. She opens up about her journey with sobriety, the relationships that have shaped her, ending her engagement and expressing herself through music. Enjoy!

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:54Speaker 02

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Paris Jackson, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  I have been so excited to sit down with you today. I was thinking about it. Since before you were even born, you have been in the public eye. Your dad was one of the most famous musicians of all time. And over the years, you've literally had to deal with loss and navigating recovery and relationships and just like finding your sense of self, all while doing it in front of the entire world. And so I am very excited to get to know you for you today. So thank you so much for being here.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:38Speaker 00

  Okay, I heard you are into astrology.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I actually looked at your birth chart before I came here, just because I saw in a video, I think it was on your Instagram, you were wearing an Aries necklace. I'm like, is she an Aries? And I looked it up and I'm like, no, she's a Leo. My girl.

• 2:56Speaker 00

  Okay, wait, this is amazing because I don't know that much. And I was like, I am so interested to hear your entire perspective on just like Leos. You're an Aries?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  My husband's an Aries and we, for our wedding gifts, we got each other. I wear his and he wears mine. And everyone always thinks I'm an Aries, but I'm a Leo.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  Okay, so you like Leos?

• 3:19Speaker 02

  My favorite women in my life are Leo women.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  I feel like today's gonna be a good day.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  I think we're gonna have a good time.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Also, isn't it a full moon tonight?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Tomorrow night.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Tomorrow night.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Very exciting. But also, what's really cool about your chart, I didn't scan through like all of your like houses and everything. I just kinda looked, scanned at your, I just peeked at your major three. And you have, I don't know if you have a stellium. I didn't check to see if you have other Leo placements, but I did notice that your sun and your rising are both Leo.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  I am a double Leo. What does that mean?

• 3:46Speaker 02

  So I am an Aries rising and an Aries sun. Well, I have a stellium. I think I have like five or six Aries placements.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  So I'm very Aries. But what's really cool about having the rising and the sun matching is it's very like what you see is what you get.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Oh, interesting.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  So when people meet me, they're like, yeah, you're very much an Aries because that's, that's my, that's how I present.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  That is so helpful, though, to hear you say that when you're a double something, because everyone's always like, oh, you're a double Leo. And I'm like, what does that mean? And then my, is it my moon is Aquarius?

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  So I'm rising Leo and moon is Aquarius.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  What does that mean?

• 4:26Speaker 02

  I don't know. You'd have to have someone, honestly, Monica, who you met, she, she's the one that's like, we'll get out a pad and paper and we'll be like, oh yeah, you're, oh, well, your Venus falls in his eighth house. And she'll like draw maps and stuff and do the whole thing. I'm not that good at it. I'm not fluent in that language at all, but I know bits and pieces from what I've picked up from, from people that I know that really study it. And the daily horoscope thing, I think, is bullshit. Because it's like, you know, the daily horoscope is not taking into consideration all of your houses and all of your planets. It's just looking at your sun. So it's gonna be as vague as possible to fit as many people into it.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Whereas like you can meet someone that has like, you know, maybe they've got like a Sagittarius sun, but like every other sign is in Capricorn. They're gonna be more Capricorn than anything.

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  So the daily horoscope is, I wouldn't recommend those. But when you get into the houses and the other planets and the degrees, that's when stuff starts getting like really spooky accurate.

• 5:29Speaker 00

  I love it, though, because I, every time I read about myself, I'm like, oh, that seems, that seems right. And I'm like, am I making that up or is it actually that accurate? Um, speaking of full moons, though.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Is there anything that like you do when a full moon is coming?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  I think that like different practices, I've picked things up and put them back down. There's lots of things that I've tried in the past. I used to do a lot of craft and I had like a group of women that we'd get together under the full moon and like dance naked. And I definitely had a photo taken off of Instagram from like a full moon circle. But now it's kind of like, you know, I've done like fire ceremonies and things like that for the new moon or the full moon. But it's not something that I do every single month.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Wait, so was it just taken off of Instagram because you were just naked? Okay. You were like, I tried.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  I blurred out my nipples, but.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Let a girl live. I had a friend that was like, oh, my friends and I like put water, I think they like say like outside and to like have the, have you ever done that?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  I do, I do nothing, Paris.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  That's like, yeah, that's like the, the standard, you know, the, the moon water or like, you know, you charge your crystals and stuff.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Saturn returns. You said you've gone through a couple Saturn returns? To anyone that's watching, it is like, how can I survive one? Do you have any advice for us?

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Um, I'm in my Saturn return right now. It started actually on my brother's birthday this year. So I'm a little late and mine started at 28.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  How are we doing?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny because a close friend of mine is like this too.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  My Saturn return might be one of the unremarkable ones just because of all of the calamity that happens earlier on. So sometimes, because typically the Saturn return is what happens when like, I know people that have like left the church they were a part of during that time, or they got a divorce during that time, or they became a mother during that time. You know, it's kind of like so much of your life shifts and it has a lot to do with identity.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  But so much has happened leading up to my Saturn return that I feel like maybe this is just one of the unremarkable ones. I could also be speaking too soon because we're only like.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Maybe it'll be the opposite for you. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's gonna, you're like, my life, there's been so many trials and tribulations that so far this is feeling pretty easy.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm chilling.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  You're, you're kinda coasting for your Saturn return. Literally every piece of wood we need to knock on, right? Okay, let's talk about though, because I was thinking about so much of your life. Yes, there has been a lot that you have gone through. And how old are you?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  I'm 28.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  And you're only 28 years old. Music.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Music has been such a huge part of your life. I know you have a new album coming out, August 21st. And I want to get into all that, but I feel like to do it, we almost need to go back to the beginning because you are someone who literally came into this world and music, it's like in your blood. What are your earliest memories around music being a part of your life?

• 8:30Speaker 02

  It's kinda like asking a dolphin or any kind of fish, like what was it like when you entered the water? I mean, only because like it was around constantly. I was raised on like the Beatles catalog. I was raised on a lot of classical music. I was raised on, you know, Tchaikovsky. I always butchered name. I don't know if it's Debussy or Debussy, but like my dad used to say Debussy. And so I don't know if that's correct pronunciation, but like I grew up on a lot of, just music was around all the time.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  For those who don't know, your dad was Michael Jackson and you grew up in this place called Neverland, which I feel like has, is like so famous and everyone like thinks of that word and they almost like think they know what that means. Known for the amusement parks and the zoo in the backyard, but you actually lived there. Can you just like explain to someone, even maybe like our Gen Z people who aren't as familiar, like what was a normal day in your childhood like at Neverland?

• 9:32Speaker 02

  So, uh, so I didn't grow up there. It was only the first few years of my life that I was there. And I'd wake up and I'd go to school.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  And you were homeschooled, right?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I'd wake up and we'd go to the room that was our classroom and we would go to school. And it's, um, it was made, the, the cool, like very congruent line throughout my childhood that kind of started there and then just continued on wherever we went was if you're good and you do your chores and you do your homework and you do the things that you're supposed to do, then on the weekends, you can go see some animals and you can go ride some rides and you can go to the movies. It was made very, very clear that all of the attractions there were not for us. That did not belong to us. That was for, you know, underprivileged children and children that were terminally ill that couldn't go to like Disneyland. Um, and that continued on even when we were, because at one point, we like wouldn't stay in one place for more than a year

• 10:30Speaker 02

  and we'd hotel hopped a lot. And so it was, you know, if we were living in Vegas and it's like, okay, if you're good, you can go to Circus Circus on the weekends. Or like we were in like some random place in Virginia, like, okay, if you're good, you can go to Chuck E. Cheese this weekend. So it was always, you know, same thing with like television, like we weren't allowed to watch television or, or movies and stuff, either unless we were studying it for film with the sound off or, um, you know, it was on the weekends if we had like done everything we were supposed to.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  Okay, so you weren't like running around at an amusement park when you're super, super young.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  It would've been cool, but no, I probably would've grown up to be an asshole, but.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  No, no, but you were grounded and you were like, we have our studies and maybe we'll get to see some of the animals at the zoo on the weekend.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 00

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• 14:42Speaker 00

  The world knew your dad is like the king of pop, but how would you have described your dad?

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Really funny guy that was my best friend.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Do you think that your humor is similar to his or different?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  I think our humor usually tends to come from our siblings and parents. That's usually where it kind of...

• 15:02Speaker 02

  And also the region in which we grow up.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Three brothers, you're the only girl.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  I feel like when you're the only girl in the family, correct me if I'm wrong, there's like a special treatment. Or there's like things that you can be like, oh, I'm the only girl. Like, I get to do XYZ with my parent because I'm the only girl. Did you have anything that was like your favorite thing that you got to do with your dad? Because you were the girl in the family.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  There was definitely a focus on making sure the love felt equal. There was definitely, like, I definitely noticed an effort in treating everyone equally. Um, I definitely was daddy's little princess. Um, I think that just happens with, with sons and mothers and fathers and daughters. There's just this special, special bond that you can't put into words. Um, but I mean, it's, it's a bummer when you get a little bit older and, and you know, like, when we started going to regular school, uh, you know, my brothers could have sleepovers at their friends' places, but I could only have my friends. You know, like, there's certain rules that, that some, some guys get a little more freedom.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  Yes, they had, there's more leniency with boys than as a girl. You're like, wait, why, why can't I? And it's like, well, unfortunately, the world we live in.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  You didn't really grow up with your mother. You didn't have a relationship with her when you were growing up, right? How was that explained to you as a kid?

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Um, you know, eventually, I remember, you know, kind of asking about it when I was probably around like 10 or 11. And the answers I got were, you know, sufficient to me. Which is like, oh, like, what's her name? And I got told her name and I'm like, all right, cool. Like, it was, you know, moved on. And, uh, we connected when I was about 15 and then really started getting closer towards like my, the end of my teen years and things like that.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Thinking about you at 15 years old, Paris, and you're like, oh, you're gonna like, meet your mom for the first time. Like, do you remember if you were nervous?

• 17:05Speaker 02

  I think, I mean, I remember coming downstairs and she was in the living room with, with my grandma. I came in and I was just like, hey, mom. And she was like, hi. And I sat down, we talked for a second, and then we went out for the day and just like hung out.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  And you called her mom right away?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  She, I mean, she's a, she's a sage, so she's got the fire. And I'm an Aries, I got the fire. We just, you know, we're very, we're very similar. You know, I, I think, um, what's really cool about my process, uh, just in, in general, in all things, is learning

• 17:36Speaker 02

  how expectations kind of fuck us up.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  And if I walk into a relationship with expectations,

• 17:50Speaker 02

  probably gonna end up being maybe disappointed, or frustrated, or irritated, or a resentment will be born or something, you know? And, and when I walk into something and I don't have expectations, it creates this really cool space for something organic to just blossom, yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  But I do think that's like a pretty impressive approach at such a young age. Like, that's like a, that's, that's a lot of insight to have at 15.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  I'd say I've gotten, it's gotten more refined.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Over the years.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  You figured it out.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  I also was thinking like, something that I, I know you've said before is like, and similar to where you're like, I didn't know anything other than music. Like, you didn't really realize that your father for a while was famous? You've even publicly said like, I didn't even know his name was Michael.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  How do you think you started to realize though, like?

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Well, I think I knew he was famous, I just didn't know how.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, definitely, there was definitely part of me that like, when I looked out my hotel window and it was one of the times where like the alias didn't work and there's just like a sea of people with signs and stuff. I'm like, there was, I'm not so naive to think, yeah, everyone experiences this. You know, I just didn't understand the lengths.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  Something that, um, I feel like so many people were obsessed with was like how your dad would have you and your brothers wear masks and like cover your faces when you would go out in public. How did you make sense of that, though, at the time when you were a kid being like, okay, put on your masks?

• 19:24Speaker 02

  I mean, it just, it made sense because it was like, oh yeah, if you do this now, then you can go to Chuck E. Cheese and be normal this weekend, because no one will know who you are. Like, that, that made sense to me.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  But it really pissed the press off.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  What doesn't?

• 19:37Speaker 00

  Fair.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  What doesn't?

• 19:39Speaker 00

  I think that people probably felt entitled to you guys as children of like, he's this figure that we get and he's ours and, and we get to comment and look at him. Like, we should be able to see the children too, because he's, you're part of that entity. And that's obviously, that was a protection that was put in place for you guys. Did you ever feel like it was scary when you would go out and have masks on and people were trying to see your face?

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Um,

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Trying to think, like, what scared me as a kid?

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Spiders, loss, uh, but I don't know that that was, was scary. I always felt, you know, protected. We always had security. And, you know, sometimes crowds would get a little crazy, but it would, there was still like this, uh,

• 20:38Speaker 02

  you know, there's, there's an adult you can grab on to.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  You know, um, but what's also so cool about

• 20:45Speaker 02

  all of it is seeing how my experience can assist other people. I have, I have a few other people in my life that are in pretty similar situations that are, you know, several years younger than me. And I just get to be a friend and, you know, my phone's on. And like, that is the coolest thing with, with all things, whether it is, you know, being, you know, a female with certain scary experiences, or, you know, being in the public eye from such a young age, or being, uh, someone in recovery. It's like, I have all these experiences that I can use to give other people. And I never tell people what to do, but if they ask me, I'm like, well, this is what worked for me

• 21:30Speaker 02

  and this is what didn't work for me. Do with it as you will. And it's taken me a very long time to get to where I am right now. This last year has been the happiest year of my life and thank God I'm in this place right now. Uh, because I may not have said those exact words a few years ago, but, but yeah, where I'm at with it now is like, oh, everything happens for a reason, whether I'm gonna see that reason now, or I'm gonna see it in 50 years, or I'm gonna see it when I die, I don't know. But like, one day it's gonna make sense.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  It's like you trust the universe.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 00

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• 24:37Speaker 00

  You were 11 when your dad died and you spoke at his memorial. What do you remember about that day?

• 24:46Speaker 02

  You know, I did this really cool exercise last year where, and I think this helps with my perspective shift on just in life, where I wrote, I wrote out just a short, two-page life story through the eyes of the victim.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  And then I sat with it and I went through and I wrote another two pages.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Same stories, but not through the eyes of the victim and through this kind of zoomed out version. And looking at like maybe these scary things that happened or these hardships that happened or whatever, and looking for what were points of initiation? What were points of like, you know, a jumping off point? What were, you know, these little pieces that would later be alchemized into medicine for other people? And so a lot of my perspective on things like that have just been like, oh, this was some form of energetic initiation to get me further along on my path.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  What story was easier to write, the victim or the more zoomed out lens?

• 25:59Speaker 02

  I'd say that because of where I was at at the time, probably the zoomed out lens.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Oh, interesting.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  I saw this Ram Dass thing recently that kind of explores the, basically these, these two roles you can, you can be in, which is either the victim or the creator. And he, I'm going to butcher this, but he said something along the lines of any time we are identifying with kind of just like our human selves. This is what I like, this is what I don't like, this is what, how I spend my time. This is, you know, my hobby, this is a label that a family member or a friend or maybe some asshole online gave me. Anytime we are identifying with those things, we are in victim. When we shed ourselves of all of these roles and we shed ourselves of all of these labels and we get to our true essence, that is when we are in creator.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  I've also seen these, this kind of outlook.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  It's like a through line across multiple cultures and even in some religions, where there is this kind of like idea around true essence stripped of all these things that that put us in a position of like maybe self pity or something like that.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  I was talking to my mom about this the other day. She always has said to me, like, there are things that can have happened to you that are horrible, but you have to choose to live with victim mentality. And if you do that, then you are essentially saying that I have no autonomy over my life. There are moments where you did not have autonomy and something happened to you and you actually were a victim. But to live in the victim mentality, like you're stripping yourself of any ability to have power. Then where do you get to rise up and be like, I'm, no, I'm in control.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Now what?

• 27:43Speaker 00

  So you're constantly just, everyone else is in control of you and you have no control over your own life. So I get what you're saying there where it's like you have to some way.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  At some point, it does become my responsibility to heal and to start taking care of myself and to be like, okay, this, this god awful thing happened. How do I use this to be of service to someone else?

• 28:07Speaker 00

  Completely. And in some capacity, it does then, that actually takes first, you putting yourself first.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  It, it feeds into my life purpose. It feeds into giving me life, you know? So like I, I, I don't, um,

• 28:23Speaker 02

  I don't like the idea of people having regrets. I don't.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  You know?

• 28:28Speaker 00

  Were, being that young, was there any question of you like speaking at the memorial? Or were you like, I want to do this?

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Oh, it just, it kind of just happened in the moment. It was kind of like, uh,

• 28:41Speaker 02

  yeah, I've been on stage where it was like, uh, they looked and they're like, are one of the kids going to say something? And no one moved. So I was like, fuck it, we ball. And like, it was just like this, it, yeah, it just happened. That's, that's a big reason why it's like, okay, this must've been some kind of energetic initiation. And so, you know, and it's funny because a lot of my life has been spent in front of, you know, microphones and, um,

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Did you feel any pressure in that moment?

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Well, because when eyes, when eyes turn and they're like, someone's got to say something. It, I don't, I have not gone back to watch it to see how quickly it all happened, but it felt like it happened very slowly and it felt like someone's got to say something. Little bro's not going to do it. Older bro's not moving. All right.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  You spoke from the heart.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  After that point in your life, I feel like everything it seems like shifted. You went to live with your grandmother, right? Well, how was that time in your life? You're processing grief, you're going through loss, you're publicly, everyone's looking at you. Talk to me. What was that like?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  That was rough, dude. That was like, I didn't have social skills. I've, I'd been hanging out with like cousins and my brothers and like adults. So I didn't know how to, uh, interact with peers, uh, very well. So had a crash course in, in gaining social skills for sure.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  And I feel like I've seen, you've talked about how like you like hung out with more like whether you sought like older friends or you just were around adults more in your life. How do you think that kind of made you grow up maybe faster than other peers your age?

• 30:24Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think I was very, uh,

• 30:28Speaker 02

  live fast and hard. I was, I wanted to grow up fast. There was something in me that wanted to live as much life as possible. Um, and I think maybe that contributed to some poor choices in my young adulthood life and whatever. But I just wanted to experience everything.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  When you look back, do you think you can like pinpoint like the why?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  I just had a graspiness with everything, you know? I'm just the type of, I have that kind of addictive personality where I will be reachy and graspy and find ways to get into consuming relationships with all things. Whereas like, for example, I know some people that, uh, you know, I'm the type of person that like, if I have a hit of weed or a drink, I'm going to go back on heroin. But I know some other people that, you know, they messed around with heroin and now they can like have a drink at a party or they can do like MDMA at a festival.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  I don't know what that is. I think everyone's maybe different, but I am just of the variety that is, I will turn Pilates into an addiction. I will turn rock climbing into an addiction. Like I am just constantly, historically, reached outside of myself to find things to change or manage how I'm feeling and thinking.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  And so much of this last year being in, now in my, in my seventh year, so I have six years of recovery of like, okay, what's it like to be in right relationship with myself? And what's it like to not be in consuming relationships with different things? I do have a consuming relationship with tobacco at the moment.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  But for the most part, just being like, okay, how can I be in just right relationship?

• 32:13Speaker 00

  I want to talk a little bit more about what you were just talking about because you have been open, not only about your addiction, but your journey to sobriety. And I love how you said earlier, like, things that you've gone through, you've been able to connect with so many people. And this is something you kind of, I know you've said dealt with in your teenage years. When do you remember your relationship to drugs and alcohol kind of beginning?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Probably eighth, ninth grade.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  But that kind of reachiness started much younger. I think I was maybe around like seven, eight, nine, when I started to just like kind of reach for things outside of myself, whether it was a person or food or, you know, just survival skills, I would say. Like self harm, for example, is probably not a living skill, it's a survival skill. Just things like that. Uh, it's kind of always been present, just this idea of like, I think I need something to help me manage.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  And did anyone close to you when you were that young know that you were going through that?

• 33:22Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I mean,

• 33:29Speaker 02

  I hit it well. I hit it well. I think, I think people that navigate through life managing that way tend to learn secrecy pretty well, pretty quickly.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  That's what I've, I've had a lot of people on and people often talk about how they used, you know, substances to kind of like escape or numb feelings. What was your experience? Like, was that, does that resonate?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I enjoyed the effect produced by whatever I was doing. Um, it was just to feel different, I think, than how I was feeling. So just controlling and managing my, my thoughts and feelings. Um, and just using other things to do that.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  How were you feeling when you weren't using?

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Uh, restless, irritable, discontented, just very like not comfortable in my own skin, you know, and that does tend to happen with a lot of people that, you know, are very, just have very addictive personalities. When you just quit cold turkey and you don't have any kind of replacement program, you kind of have to, it's like a white knuckling process. And so going through life, white knuckling is, is rough. And so there needs to be, I've found for someone like me, some kind of replacement technique.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  You've talked about how you were raised to have good morals, but alcohol kind of brought out this version of yourself that you really didn't like.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  I'm a cunt.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  Can you share when you started to realize that? And was it, you realized it through yourself or was it people telling you?

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Hmm. I was starting to get, uh, I was starting to hear stories of like what would happen when I was blacking out. And they started progressively getting worse. And, uh, I basically scared myself into getting help.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  Oh, that's, I mean, I can imagine like how hard that is too, because at first, I don't know, like, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to be in denial at first because like this is something that you're using and it's making you feel good. And so to hear those stories at first, when do you think it went from you being like, that's not that, that's not that bad to like, oh my God, maybe I do need to take these stories into account of what everyone's telling me. And like, I do need to listen.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it had happened in, uh, I was like end of 2019, cause I got sober the first week of 2020. Um, it was, yeah, you know, I realized I, I couldn't stop after I'd gotten rid of like some of the harder stuff. And I realized even with, you know, weed and alcohol, I like, I just couldn't stop. And it was just getting worse. And it just, I had my breaking point. I had my, my bottom and it, uh, it just kind of did it for me. And so then I was like, okay, what do I do? What do I, you know, how do I rebuild the foundation? How do I, you know, come up with some kind of daily thing to keep, to

• 36:33Speaker 02

  keep me good and, and develop a spiritual life and, um, find ways to be of service?

• 36:40Speaker 00

  That must've been hard. That was during COVID. So you were trying to get sober during COVID. How was that?

• 36:48Speaker 02

  It was really fun. It was really fun. I found a really cool community of, uh, like people that were somewhere around my age. Some of them were a little bit younger. Um, that were also newly sober and we all just kind of like hung out and, you know, spent almost every day together. And, and it was, you know, I had this camaraderie and community and fellowship of like, okay, you know what I'm going through. I know what you're going through. And there's just this understanding. Um, I think community is so important. Cause I've, I've heard some people say that the opposite of addiction is connection. And so having that kind of like, I've got my people, they, you know, they've got me.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  When you started to get sober, what was the self-reflection on like how that time in your life had impacted the relationships? And did you also realize like certain relationships weren't serving you now that you were sober?

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the people I was getting high with, I probably shouldn't keep hanging out with them. Like my fucking drug dealer, I probably shouldn't keep hanging out with them. You know, like there, those, there were some that were more obvious and, uh, there were also some that took a lot longer to kind of, you know, I've had some friendship breakups that were worse than, than, you know, romantic breakups and those are devastating. Uh,

• 38:09Speaker 02

  but it's really started to shift in, in this last year, learning how to be in right relationship with myself. I've started noticing ripple effects in all of my relationships. Um, even like one of my best friends, I would say my best friend who, you know, isn't in therapy, never really had any issues with, with drugs or alcohol and doesn't drink anymore, but still smokes weed, like just a very normal person. Um,

• 38:38Speaker 02

  we have so much more, we're able to have uncomfortable conversations. We're able to, that, that fostered trust and safety and more closeness and more intimacy where, and we've been friends for 10 years, but it's like really in the last year, I've, I've seen how

• 38:56Speaker 02

  adjusting how I am with myself is also affecting my relationships with friends, with family, like with, you know, it's really cool.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  That's incredible, Paris. Cause I feel like anyone in my life that I have personally dealt with, obviously who I'm there with them when they're dealing with addiction or I've, who I've interviewed. It's like, there's something so beautiful when you do get to that point where you start to see yourself and pour love into yourself and you're not numbing and you're like, you essentially become lucid again. And you're like, oh my God. And first it's uncomfortable from what a lot of my friends have told me. They're like,

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Very uncomfortable.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  I want to crawl out of my skin.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  Very uncomfortable, but it's very like,

• 39:40Speaker 02

  hand on heart, gentle, gentle, like move through it. This is medicine. This discomfort is medicine. And sometimes we don't want to take our fucking medicine because it tastes like shit, but it, it does what it needs to do.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  And then you get to the point where you're now with your friend who you've had for 10 years and to say that this sobriety and this place in your life where you're now able to pour so much self-love into yourself has unlocked a completely different side

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  of your relationship. I think that's what's been so beautiful is everyone who sat in that chair and talked about such different experiences. But there is a commonality of like, oh my God, once you push through that really, really hard moment, and it's always going to be hard. But there is this like light at the end of the tunnel of like, oh my God, I've never felt more connected to certain relationships and most importantly, myself. And how beautiful is that? That like, you're, you're granted that up the end of that? Damn.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  It's, I mean, there's nothing more rewarding. And I also see that it is affecting my songwriting. It's affecting my ability to express myself. Um, I like, I wrote a, I've, I've only ever really written songs about like boys and heartbreak and drugs. And, you know, a few weeks ago, I wrote a song for my best friend and you know, put it up on Instagram and she loved it. And like, we're both crying. It's just like this beautiful, like I'm writing, I wrote a song about a friendship breakup recently. Um, and I'm being more descriptive. I'm, I'm shying away from the vagueness that I used to, cause I used to think like, oh, well, the more vague I am, the more people can like relate. And it's like, well, I'm just gonna write about my experience and I'm just gonna be, you know, I might be open

• 41:20Speaker 02

  for interpretation. Like some of the lyrics are a little like, you know, 40 seasons passed and silver lines, silver lines and tales to tell. That's 40 seasons, 10 years we've been friends, silver lines as she's starting to get gray hair. There's certain things in there where it's like little inside moments that she'll know what I'm saying, but other people won't. And then there's other things that are very, um, specific, like the tagline in that little song that I wrote is like, if we're all just pieces of the people that we meet, you've got the biggest piece of me. That's not open for interpretation. That is exactly what it means.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  Is it unsettling putting that out into the world because you are somewhat of a private person, you know?

• 42:01Speaker 02

  You know, when it's art.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  It's when it's art, that's a whole other thing. You know, like there, there may be certain things that I may not want to talk about in an interview, or I may not want to talk about on my fucking Instagram, but like with, with art, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna share my experience and then, you know, maybe I will talk about it later as it relates to the music, but.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Let's talk about your music.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  Because there's a lot that inspired me because a lot of what you yes, write about are like thematically things that I love to talk about on the show. Your new single Zombies in Love, it talks about, correct me if I'm wrong, but being in a relationship built around shared pain and escapism essentially. When you look back at that relationship, like, how did that dynamic eventually become unsustainable for you?

• 42:59Speaker 02

  I mean, we were strong on heroin, so I don't think it was ever sustainable.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  But getting sober.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that allowed it.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  What did that relationship teach you about healing on your own versus healing in a partnership?

• 43:16Speaker 02

  That one, not so much, just because the whole focus getting out of that was like, I'm newly sober. I need to like just not do drugs and alcohol. Like that was the primary focus and it was really hunkering down and just doing a lot of work on myself surrounding addiction.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  This last breakup that I went through was a lot more like, oh, how do I not go back to old coping skills? Like I, yeah, I may be able to like not touch drugs and alcohol, but what are some other things? This, the graspingness, what else am I being graspy with that I can just not fucking do? Go in here, connect there and really just, that was a huge focus. I did this whole thing, right? A lot of people, I know I did for a long time, like, oh, I'll just get under someone to get over someone. That historically has never worked for me and going from person to person doesn't work for me. So it was very much like, I'm not even gonna go on a date. I'm not gonna flirt.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna do prolonged eye contact for like X amount of months.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Prolonged.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  I'm not, I'm not gonna, and you're gonna know what I'm talking about, cause I'm not gonna do an extended hug to see if they, just to see if they'll do it back and to see if I can, because there is intrigue and there's validation in that. We're not doing any of that. We're just gonna, we are tunnel vision, eyes on our own paper, we're fucking locking in and we are just.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Paris.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  It was one of the most uncomfortable, at first uncomfortable, but one of the best things I ever did for myself. Full blown reset, full blown, just like detox. And I really got my priorities straight. I really got

• 45:02Speaker 02

  the room to like, be like, oh, what are the things that really make me happy? How do I

• 45:10Speaker 02

  listen to myself and listen to my intuition? Like my, my, my hearing has gotten a lot stronger. And yeah, that was one of the best things that I, that I could have done for myself after that split.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  Can we talk about that though? Because last summer, you called off your engagement and

• 45:33Speaker 00

  that is, that takes a lot of, I think, courage to end something when you have at one point decided, I want to spend the rest of my life with this person. And then obviously you, you ended it, I don't know who mutual, was it a mutual decision?

• 45:50Speaker 02

  It was, it was a choice that I needed to make to be happy.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Can you, with what you're comfortable, because I have so many women who listen and it's like,

• 46:00Speaker 00

  I feel like there is something that happens, especially as women, where we can get more sucked into like, oh my God, I've spent so much time with this person. I've invested in this, I've spent.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  There's a name for that. I don't know what it is. My friend said it the other day, there is a name for that when, oh, because I've invested X amount of time, I have to keep going with it.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Oh, well, that in, in business, it's called the sunken cost fallacy, which is so unsexy. And that's probably not for, but it's like,

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Not what it is though?

• 46:30Speaker 00

  It's basically the sunken cost fallacy is like, if you have spent so much time pouring into this one project, and then if like a better option arises, whether it's like, oh my God, I see that I don't want this, or I see that this could, I could get this, but it could take two seconds, even though I've spent years building this and it's gonna be better for me. Don't just stay with the thing because you've invested so much time in it. If it's not actually what's the best option for you. And so I can't help but wonder for you, like, how did you know? Although I've invested in this publicly, I've spoken about it, there's a lot going on. How did you know you were, you made the right decision to end an engagement?

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Well, as far as the public side of it goes, I've had people write about my breakups before, so it's not that big of a deal. This is also my second engagement that I called off. The first one, I don't know if you could count the first one. It was real to me, even though we were strung out on drugs and the ring was one that he bought with my money without me knowing. It was still like, the love was so real for me and that, that first one. So this was like, ah, it was the second one. No, it wasn't, it wasn't that casual. No, it was very like, you know,

• 47:45Speaker 02

  I,

• 47:48Speaker 02

  there were times where I did try and end it, but there was this little voice being like, but what if, however long down the line, and this is a voice that a lot of us have of if I had just hung in there a little bit longer, it would have gotten better. And so I'm the person that needs to be sure, really, really needs to be sure. Even though I have a therapist, like a clinical psychologist, a coach, I have, you know, I had got a whole council of people, friends that, that know a lot about relationships and all the things that I was going through in life at the time, that are like, honey.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  And asking me the right questions of like, why would you stay? And my answers weren't good enough. My answers weren't good enough, just because I've realized, just because someone is a good person, doesn't mean they're my person. And I have to be happy and, and I realize that my non-negotiables are allowed to be non-negotiables. And if these big, major needs are not being met, it doesn't matter that you're a good person and you're not gonna cheat on me. That's not a reason to stay.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Paris.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Especially also because I think, you know, I, I, I live in a city where it have, where, where loyalty is not the biggest thing. And so sometimes I maybe get it in my head that that's how most people are. I have some of the most incredible men in my life that love their wives, that love their kids, that are just such stand up dudes that would never dream of fucking that up. So I know that that exists out there, like I have, I can examine the evidence and be like, okay, like it does exist. This isn't the one and only person that's not gonna do that to me.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  I know, isn't that so fucking sad that like we as women in, if you are in a, um, relationship, like a heterosexual relationship, you're like, oh my God, this man, I'm convinced all of these men cheat, right? And so then you're like, I found one that is like, without a doubt, this loyalty, oh my God. I would be an idiot to let this go. And it's like, guys, it is kind of bare minimum for them to not cheat. Like we need to start looking at that. That's not a boundary. That's, that shouldn't even be a prerequisite. Like that is just like, that is what a relationship is, is someone not cheating on you. So like, but we have been conditioned and I agree.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  And it's like, why do we convince ourselves that that's enough? And then, well, he's gonna, he won't cheat on me, da, da, da.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  I, I was talking to my friend about this a few days ago.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Cause she likes my, you know, my take on, on relationships and certain things. And so I only share my experience and I don't give suggestions or advice ever, but, um, you know, if sometimes when one thing is being met, we'll disregard the other things. And what was so awesome about, I'll give you an example for, for this person was she really wants like a, kind of like a caretaker person. And if there is a guy who does that one thing, she's like, cool, he's the one. And is not gonna look at all the other things that make him one of the worst people to ever be with. But, and we're willing to overlook a lot of things and paint over them because this one thing is being met.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  And so the conversation kind of becomes about, okay, what's the need caretaking? Cool. How do I give that to myself? So that when homie comes knocking, I'm like, I'm good on this. What else can you bring to the table? What are, what can you bring to the table that I don't already have covered? And what's been so cool about, you know, that, that time that I took after my last relationship was allowing myself to kind of,

• 51:38Speaker 02

  the clouds part, I'm not willing to overlook a bunch of things. I'm, I'm like, oh, I can be a little bit pickier. You know, the bar can be raised a bit because it's historically been very low. And I remember like, there was this one time, um, once I was like, okay, I'm gonna chill. I'm not gonna like actively seek people out, but like if something happens, it happens. And you know, there was someone, I got on the phone with him and it was a 15 minute phone call. And at one point, he made a comment about like, yeah, I just can't picture my life without weed.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  And as someone that was

• 52:18Speaker 02

  one of the biggest stoners you will ever meet, like I loved weed. That was one of my favorite things in the world, like to the point where like, out of my friend group, I was the only one that was able to like, keep up with Snoop Dogg one time when we all smoked with him, which was like the coolest story ever, uh, to say that I was able to do that. But where I'm at in life now, like, I don't judge it. I, because I loved it so much, I understand when people want to do that. But because it's not a part of my life at all, I'm not gonna overlook that and be with someone that does it all day, every day. So I'm like, cool. Okay. Thanks for your time. Click. I'm not gonna even bother with a first date.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  No, I love what you're saying so much. And I do think this all goes to like, I'm so happy that it's so, I love my job because had we met a couple of years ago, we would have had a fascinating conversation. And now that we're meeting here, we're also having a fascinating conversation because you're at such a different point in your life than you were a couple of years ago. Same with me. And I love what you're talking about because when you get to that place where you start to analyze and realize, oh, my God, if I can fill myself up in all these areas, these romantic partners are gonna look so different. Cause I'm not gonna be like, there's this one wound that I have, and it's this one thing, for example, the caregiver, like, I need

• 53:35Speaker 00

  this person. If you don't need that anymore, then you're kind of like, what, what do you have? And you get to kind of look at the whole picture, as opposed to them filling the void of whether it's your childhood trauma, and this one person fits that one need, and they fix it for you. Then you literally are just, you're, you're, you're putting yourself in a position where you are essentially accepting way less than you actually deserve. Cause you actually have to fill the void. They're never gonna fill it. It's gonna be a stopgap.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna say, like, and like, and this is, I can only ever really speak from my experience, if it is coming from a wounded place, if there's a specific trauma or a specific wound, even if

• 54:19Speaker 02

  say they give you the exact script for reassurance that you wrote out for them, it's not gonna be enough. It's not gonna be enough.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  It's not.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  They can do everything right.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  It's not gonna be enough.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  Because you have to actually get whole within yourself. Like, he can only help for so long, or she can only help for so long. And then eventually, once they give you the 100% maximum effort on caregiving, or, you know, whatever, validation, or whatever, eventually, you're still gonna go to sleep at night, and it'd be like, ding, ding, I still don't feel whole in that area of my life. And you're gonna realize, oh, my God, I picked this person because I thought they could fill me up there. And guess what? That's nice. They do that for you, but you have to do it for you first. And when you realize that, you're like, shit. Okay, back to the drawing board. But that's what you just did. You went and you cleansed yourself,

• 55:12Speaker 00

  no eye contact, no long hugs. Paris, I'm dying. Every girl's even like, okay, maybe I need to try that.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Dude, I'm very like, I'm very like, I am the lead with the chin kind of person where it's just like, oh, we're getting sober, we're going all the way. Oh, we're doing this, we're going all the way. I'm very much like, you know, stage dive into the audience at full speed, don't hesitate, like, jump.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. As you guys know, I have basically been working double time throughout this pregnancy to bank episodes for the month that I will be on maternity leave. And a few weeks ago, it all just kind of hit me. I was like, wait, wait, wait, where did summer go? And I was talking about this with Matt, and he ended up surprising me with a little staycation. He booked this beautiful home on Airbnb in Malibu so that we could pretend like it was summer while it's still warm here in LA. The weather was perfect. The house was right on the beach, which was so relaxing and amazing. It also had just such a gorgeous kitchen. We stayed in, we cooked dinner together. And, you know, daddy, given

• 56:25Speaker 00

  my cooking skills, they have, they have gotten better. They've gotten a little bit better through pregnancy. But it was really just so nice to unplug and spend that time together before the baby comes and we move into this completely new chapter of our life. So whether you're planning a cozy weekend away, or you're just looking for an excuse to unplug for a few days, October is the perfect time to get out of town. Booking a home on Airbnb makes the trip feel even more special because everyone has room to actually spend time together, whether you're coming back after a long day out, or you're also just cooking dinner. Airbnb makes settling in even easier because you can order groceries for your trip and have

• 57:05Speaker 00

  all the snacks and essentials delivered after you arrive. My favorite fall trips always have one thing in common, an amazing place to stay. That's why I always look at Airbnb first. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Haagen-Dazs. Okay, it is so important to take some me time, you know what I mean, guys? So take your sweet time and enjoy rich, smooth, creamy ice cream from Haagen-Dazs. Because honestly, when was the last time you actually slowed down and let yourself have a moment for you? You have to try their new cherry dark chocolate bar. Guys, picture rich cherry ice cream with tart cherry ribbons coated in thick dark chocolate. Are you kidding me? I'm drooling. Are you drooling yet? No, seriously. This is

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• 58:23Speaker 00

  Okay, can you give any advice on how to navigate a conversation where you are ending a relationship? Because the amount of women who write in to me and are like, I'm staying half of the reason because I don't know how to fucking end this. Like, that is heartbreaking to do to someone you love.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  If, if homegirl's gotta stay in that so much, to the point where she hits a breaking point before she finally has the conversation, then that's maybe the experience you need to have. Just like, I'm not gonna, I've, I've had friends in recovery that, you know, I've gotten sober with, and they go out.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  What am I gonna do? Be like, you need to get sober. You need to stop drinking. I'm gonna tell you what to do. That's gonna make them drink more. Like, that's, you know, it's like, hey, I'm here. You're gonna go, if you need to go out and do more research and realize, like, oh, I have a problem, and I can't do this in moderation, that's the experience you need to have.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  Is there anything that worked for you?

• 59:21Speaker 02

  I will say what didn't work for me.

• 59:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  And this kind of goes across the board for, like, previous relationships. Tapering doesn't work.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  Tapering's not a, you know, I see it happen also, like, I have a couple of friends that, you know, aren't maybe in the middle of a divorce. And like, I see, I can also observe and be like, oh, maybe this isn't just my experience. Tapering has not historically worked for me. And no contact is one of the most effective and rapid ways of healing.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  Um,

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  if I had to make a suggestion, a light suggestion.

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  Light.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Uh, if there's any kind of spiritual practice you can bring into it before having the conversation, I would recommend that. Whether it's, you know, if you have a higher power, or you have multiple higher powers, or it's the universe, or it's literally anything, prayer, meditation, anything like that, bringing that into it.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  And, you know, honesty without causing harm, which is, it's very much a case by case. You know, it's hard to give one blanket, and here's the advice for everybody going through a break. Like, it's.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  I agree. I agree with that. Another song off of your new album, Stitched. It seems to explore codependency in relationships. A little bit? Yes? No?

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  I can see how it'd be interpreted that way.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  I kind of interpreted it that way.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  But I guess that's like, that's what I got out of it.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  That's what it's about. That's what it's about. Hundred percent. This is a song about codependency.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  You're like, codependency through and through, Alex. Have you ever experienced codependency?

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  How have you?

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  That's what my song's about.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Okay, so I wasn't completely.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  For sure. For sure. I have, of course.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  Have you ever had it where you were in the situation where someone else realized that, you know, they didn't need you in the same way that you needed them? And how did you handle that unraveling?

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Cause codependency is hard to unravel.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  I mean, it, it, it can be aligned in many ways with addiction. Um.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  I've had, I've experienced it in so many different ways where I was the one that had to like set up some boundaries or, or cut it off. And I've been on the other end of it as well. And

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  it's, it's tough. I mean, I would say in a hypothetical situation, doing what I did last year of like, let's get right with me is, is one of the best things. Let's get right with me and let's get right with whatever.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  You know, not going to give it a name.

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  No, no, I agree with you because it's like, almost like when you have a codependent situation, it almost becomes this like, I don't even want to say 50/50 situation, but you kind of are giving half of yourself and then trying to make it that they're the other, or more, right? Yeah, you're right. It could be 70/30, 80/20, whatever it is. And what you start to realize is like, you're actually not operating 100% as yourself and as comfortable as codependency in the moment can be and scary as it is to detach yourself from it. You're, the longer you prolong it, the more you're going to get so seeped into that experience and it's going to be harder to remove. And so I agree with you sometimes like cold turkey and

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  removing yourself and then pouring into yourself is kind of the only way to navigate getting out of a situation like that. It's hard. It's really fucking hard.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  In a lot of just issues in general, that, as far as like, you know, connection relationships and, and just like, anything consuming, the opposite is, well, how do I be in right relationship with it? Whatever that thing is.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  Could you see yourself getting engaged again?

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  I don't know. You know, it's, it's a day at a time kind of thing for me, you know, it's, I realized that if I spend so much time thinking about what the next 10, 15, 20, 30 years is going to look like, I'll get there and I'll look back and be like, damn, I didn't enjoy where I was when I was there. And I was just thinking about where I'm going to be at now.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  So are you staying single? Are we, are we dating? Are we in a relationship with happening in Paris?

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  I'm happy.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  That's all that matters.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  That's all I'm gonna say. I'm really happy.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  You have been open about struggling with self-love. We've talked about it a little bit, but where are you now sitting here like today at with that? And what are things that you now are like, I will not tolerate this, whether it's from yourself or a romantic partner?

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  As far as intimacy goes, genuine connection with a person.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Can you expand a little bit? Like, what does intimacy look like to you?

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  Safety, trust. And there's a bit of spiritual connection in there too.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's just a non-negotiable. Like, I don't want to just like hook up with someone that's good and bad. Like, I don't.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Right. You're like, we've had that.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  I, I, I just, I want actual love, actual, you know? And my, my, my views on intimacy has changed. My views on, on a lot of non-negotiables have changed. There needs to be some kind of like creativity involved in, in the connection and I need to laugh. With someone that has all of the letters, like my diagnoses that I do, as well as like my addiction, my CPTSD, and I just, I need to laugh. Life's too serious.

• 1:05:06Speaker 00

  Are you usually the funnier one in the relationship?

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  I think it's dependent on the, on the person.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, but in the, in the last, in the last few years, I've definitely realized like, I, I don't want to be, I don't want to carry the weight.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  You don't want to bring it all.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  Especially because like my best friend is like the funniest person I know. And, and she's taught me a lot of like, I think I get a lot of my humor from her because I've known her since I was a teenager. But yeah, all my friends, my bandmates are so funny. My brothers are so funny. Like everyone, it's, it's very important.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  It's so healing and it's so what life is about sometimes.

• 1:05:47Speaker 00

  Are you someone that historically, like, do you date people you've been friends with? Or are you going like, you're meeting someone and you're immediately going to be romantic with them?

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Um, I have learned, I am the type of person that needs a foundation of friendship.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  And that's not, I definitely had issues with boundaries when I was younger. We're just like, whatever, whoever kind of thing. Like I, I had hooked up with friends when I was younger and, and realized that, hey, you know, just because this is a really great friendship and we're in a really good place, doesn't mean we need to take it further to make it better.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  And I've just learned that, you know, that's not for, you know, I, I just, I'm learning boundaries and I'm learning that, but, but I also, yeah, for sure. I, you know, my,

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  as far as a partner goes, there's got to be a best friendship. There's got to be, you know, we gotta enjoy just hanging out. Yeah, going out and doing nice dates and stuff, but like hang out, shoot the shit, have fun, make each other laugh. Like that has to be.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  Has to be there.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  That's a non-negotiable.

• 1:06:58Speaker 00

  Speaking about your music, obviously because the new album coming out, I was thinking about it. Being the daughter of literally one of the biggest musicians in history for the rest of time, I feel like there have been such expectations placed on you that have kind of.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  Expectations. They're gonna make you miserable.

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, they have nothing to do with you as a human being. It's, it's all because of, you know, who your father is. It's like somehow these things were placed on you too. Um, how do you handle that pressure? Or how do you manage it? Because you're in the music business, right? And so like.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  And you know, it's, I think comparisons, the thief of joy.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  And

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  as far as like what I choose to do, I'm literally just going with what feels good to me. It's like, oh, I really like the snare sound in this One Pumpkin song. I really like the way he enunciates this word in this Manchester song. And I really like, you know, the guitar tone of this Bad Book song. Like I'm, I'm doing what sounds good to me and feels right to me. And if other people have expectations of, well, you should go this route, or you should do this genre, or you should do this.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  You know, when you place expectations on other people, you're just going to end up sour about it. Uh, and that's not really my business, what other people think of me. And also if you're going to

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  kind of, you know, try and turn someone into something that is one of a kind, when no one else has been able to hold a light to that, you're going to make yourself miserable doing that. But yeah, I think, I do think it's, it's, there's some humor to be found in like, yeah, I'm doing a grunge show, I'm doing a rock show, I'm screaming into a microphone and someone's like, why didn't you moonwalk on stage? And it's like, that's the wrong show. Like, you know, I'm open up for Incubus or I'm open up for like the Pretty Reckless. Like this is not, uh.

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  This is not that show, babe. This is not that show. That's, I love that perspective.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  You get all my loafers, you know, like, I'm just, I'm wearing combat boots.

• 1:09:11Speaker 00

  We're not doing.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  Not anatomically possible anyways.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  What do you think your dad would think about your music?

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  I don't like speaking for other people. But based on what I knew about him wanting me to be happy, I think because I'm happy, he would be satisfied with that.

• 1:09:33Speaker 00

  August 21st, the album comes out. Also, that's my birthday, by the way. We've got good juju here.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  Birthday. So thanks for the birthday gift.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  I'll send you a vinyl.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll be listening. Um, can you explain what the inspiration behind this album is?

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  Um, it, it's not like, uh, it's cohesive in sound as far as like the sonics and the production go, but it's not cohesive as far as storytelling goes. Like my first record was a concept record and it was like, if you listen in track order from start to finish, it tells a story. This is kind of as far as what each song is about. They're all about different things.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  This, this album is for, is for freshman year old P. It is like freshman year,

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  moody, love Nirvana and like Smashing Pumpkins and Pixies and Marcy Klar, just very, this is for her. You know, I'm like, what if I just made something that she would have thought was really cool? You know, it doesn't have to be like, wow, this is, this is like really well-written music. It's just like, no, I just want it to sound fun and I want her to think that it's cool. And the thing is, is like, I, I am a folk artist at heart. I will always be a singer songwriter, a folk artist. So that might be where I'm headed sonically in the future, but I'm like, oh, like once I realize, oh, I can scream and I can project. Like, fuck it, let's do a fun, loud record.

• 1:10:56Speaker 00

  What was the hardest song for you to write?

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  The hardest one for me to write? Have to see the set, the track list to think, because some of these songs I wrote years ago. As far as emotions go, probably Sirens.

• 1:11:11Speaker 00

  That one's very emotional.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was about a buddy of mine that OD'd on my drugs and I had to handle that till the paramedics arrives.

• 1:11:23Speaker 00

  That was, that was a rough one.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  How long ago did you write that song?

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  Hmm, well, it happened, I think it was 2018 when it happened. And then I think I wrote the song in 2021 or 2022. And then I recorded it with Butch Walker and I just kind of, it was just left on the back burner and I never really did anything with it. And then when I started working on this new record, I'm like, that fits the vibe of this red lamp. I'm going to just throw that on there. Um, and that was,

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  yeah, I mean, that was, that was scary because in a situation like that, you know, even though I had experienced.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  With, you know, being a trained first responder,

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  when you go into fight or flight, you, there's no, it's a gamble of how your brain's gonna react. Just because you know what to do, your brain still might tell you to freeze and there's nothing you can do about it.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  So it was definitely a lucky situation and, and the paramedics had said, like, you know, if you had gotten there any later, he either would be dead or brain dead. So, you know.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  And it's also definitely a testament to the whole, like, it takes what it takes, because I still didn't get sober for another year and a half after that. Like, you think something scary like that of like,

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  nope.

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  No, that's such a good point. It's like, it's like, almost like how people talk about, completely different, but like, therapy, when people, like, you literally can't convince someone to get therapy, to get help, like, it has to be the person that finally something clicks in you and you're like, okay, today's the day. Family members try to convince understandably and it's like, you have to be the one.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  Intervention sucks, dude. Interventions suck. No one likes them. Everyone I talked to that's had them, we all hate them. You know what? Depending on the situation, if the person's ready, it works. Or, you know, it will be one step further into planting that seed in that person, that when they are ready, they will know where to go and they will know what to do and they will know how to handle it.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Didn't work for me, though.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  It's all right. You, you figured it out. If you are still in touch with that friend that you wrote sirens about, have you shared it with him?

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  I've not shared that song. But, um, I did have a really nice conversation with him, probably about a year ago, we, we caught up and it kind of like, I was able to kind of address some of the things that went south during that time when I was a mess. And I'm like, this is where I'm at now and these are the things that I'm kind of doing as like corrective measures daily to like, no longer be that way.

• 1:13:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing. What song are you most excited to perform on tour?

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  Stitched is really fun to do.

• 1:14:13Speaker 02

  But there's, there's this other song that's not on the album and it's not one that, that I'm gonna put out for a while, but I just finished recording it. And that one's probably like the most fun one to perform. I also really like, I always do a cover of No Rain by Blind Melon and we do like a rock version of it and I'm like shredding my voice on it and it's fun and the audience loves it and the audience knows it, because like, they're not singing my own lyrics back to me, but they'll sing that one. So, you know, it's, it's a really good time. Yeah.

• 1:14:41Speaker 00

  You've talked about how you've kind of reinvented yourself many times over the years. How would you describe this current phase of your life that you're in?

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  D major.

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  It's like the happiest chord there is. It's sometimes a very corny chord, but it's, yeah, it's the happiest chord there is, I would say.

• 1:15:03Speaker 00

  That's amazing. That makes me really happy.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  Or a G, because it's so well-rounded and complete.

• 1:15:08Speaker 00

  Okay, throughout all of your hardships and all of the growth that you've been through, what are you the most proud of yourself for today?

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Relentlessness.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  Keep on truckin', man. Fuck it, keep on truckin', just keep going, you know? Open-minded, willing.

• 1:15:28Speaker 00

  I am so happy I got to sit down with you. I had obviously so much I wanted to ask you and I really appreciate you being so open. I know you are a very private person and I feel like, kind of like you said, like, it is very indicative of where you're at in your life, that your music, you're like, I used to write and like, kind of allude and now it is kind of synonymous with what, how you're living your life, is like, you're pouring more in.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  Like, you know, even going from like, my first record is very much like, I'm singing in my head register and I'm like, very like, I, I, I wanna hit the notes that other people are gonna sound, that they're gonna think it sounds like maybe pretty or whatever. And now I'm like, but that's, that's my head register. When I sing with my chest register, it's gonna sound a little bit more abrasive and thank God I listen to bands like Bright Eyes and Modest Mouse, because they don't give a fuck. And it's like, that's what I wanna emulate of just like, this is not gonna sound pretty and this is, I'm not gonna do like the really nice like vocal runs of like a proper singer. I don't even consider myself a singer. So I'm like, just get it out, do the thing, be

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  full.

• 1:16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  In my fullness.

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  But it's, it's translating also to your life. Like, everything you're talking about is like, you used to be understandably, like, you're like, I wasn't sharing as much. And not that you have to overshare your actual life, but just being more open with yourself, even, the way that you've talked through this entire conversation of like, I'm now pouring into myself and therefore it's kind of unlocking all these different sectors in your life that are growing even more than you could have imagined.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:02Speaker 00

  Than a couple of years ago. Like, I'm so happy that I got to sit down with you and get to know you, because you're a really interesting, fabulous person.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:17:12Speaker 00

  Paris, thank you so much for coming on Call Her Daddy. You were a dream guest.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:17:30Speaker 00

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