Esther Perel: Cheating, Codependency, & Connection

Join Alex in the studio for a conversation with psychotherapist and relationship expert, Esther Perel. Esther breaks down what we’re getting wrong in dating, how to build stronger connections, the warning signs of codependency, the uncomfortable truth behind cheating, and how to have better sex. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:45Alex Cooper?

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• 1:30Alex Cooper?

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• 2:13Alex Cooper?

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding Father Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:22Alex Cooper?

  Esther Perel, welcome back to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  It's a treat for me to be back. Third time.

• 2:28Alex Cooper?

  I know. I'm so happy. This is the first time that we've met in person.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:33Alex Cooper?

  And it feels right. I remember during the pandemic, I felt like you were my safe place. I was like, I need you. We all need you. Talk to me. And we had such an amazing, we've had such amazing conversations. And today, I'm just ready to get back into it. For anyone who lives under a rock, you are a renowned psychotherapist and a relationship expert. You're also one of the best couples therapists out there. You focus on modern relationships, intimacy, infidelity. And I think a lot of the things that you practice and focus on is going to be very relatable to my audience today. So should we just get into it?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  It's where shall we begin, as we say on the podcast?

• 3:16Alex Cooper?

  Where should we begin? I think a lot of women are really, really discouraged by the current state of dating. What do you think is just behind that?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  There's a lot of things behind what's happening to dating. Dating is the symptom. But maybe one way of asking is what's going on in the world of relationships? Okay.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  That is making dating more complicated. The world of dating itself, romantic consumerism is really challenging. When you are constantly looking for the perfect and afraid to settle for the good. When you are dealing continuously with the paradox of choice with so many options and looking for a soulmate on an app. And with a horrendous case of FOMO, when the ick factor is so omnipresent and very, very quick to kick in. When we need more social skills than we ever needed before because we are living in such a contactless reality and we actually don't have the skills to speak to people, to look at them.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  What is one of the first things we just did when we saw each other is touch. You know, we have been so disembodied. So we looked at each other, we smiled to each other, we touched each other and we kind of really grounded ourselves in each other's presence so that we can have a conversation rather than trying to look for algorithmic perfection.

• 4:43Alex Cooper?

  I completely agree with everything you just said, but specifically, I think what is very applicable to my audience is like, we're looking for the perfect.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:52Alex Cooper?

  And we're so hyper fixated on it because there's such an enormity of options out there because back in the day, our parents never had the access we have. They didn't know that there was a guy named Mike in LA who had a six pack that they can stalk. Like, it was just the people that were in their proximity. And I would love if you could expand a little bit more on like, being inundated with relationship content online and through pop culture. Like, how has that warped our idea of love and dating and what it's supposed to look like?

• 5:24Speaker 01

  So, the first thing is, where does the perfection come from, right? Many different sources, but one that comes up immediately is when you look at your phone, it will tell you from app to app, where to go, what to listen to, where to eat, what to watch next, what to listen for next, and it gives it to you without any ambiguity. It gives it to you with utter predictability and perfection. And all those technologies that we are having in the palm of our hand are promising to unburden us of all the inconveniences of life. And this is in major part what is warping expectations between people. Because

• 6:04Speaker 01

  now I want my people that I meet to be just as predictable and just as perfect and just as unquestionable and just as certain as the responses that I get in the palm of my hand for every second question I have. What happens between people is filled with uncertainty. It's experimentation. It's the unexpected. It's the unknown. It's the surprise. It's the curiosity. That's what drives relationships with people in the beginning. And none of that is being trained when all I need to do is click on something. And God forbid I would get lost and discover a whole new landscape that I didn't even know existed,

• 6:43Speaker 01

  a building I had never noticed, serendipity, spontaneity, happenstance. Those things produce anxiety rather than awe and surprise at this moment.

• 6:54Alex Cooper?

  Right. It's like, people are not... As predictable as these apps are, and that is becoming somehow a negative in our eyes. We're like, it should just be, you know, black and white. But really, that used to be what was so divine about-

• 7:10Speaker 01

  We are by nature unpredictable, flawed, imperfect. And that, you know, what happens when you look for perfection and predictability in people is that you stop being able to deal with the messiness of human life. The smells, the bumps, the caretaking, the less shiny aspects of intimacy, i.e. not the six pack. Right?

• 7:33Alex Cooper?

  Not the six pack, Esther.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  What do you do when you're dealing with the messiness of human life and you've become accustomed to always on delivery of your every delight, you know, perfect pitch? That is before the advice. That's even before we've come to the advice.

• 7:52Alex Cooper?

  Right. Can, can we also focus on, I love how you said, like, the feeling of, these people are going out there, and then there's this anxiety. But I think something so beautiful about first dates and first experiences, or second dates or third dates, is sometimes the butterflies we feel when we meet someone. And there's the unknown, and again, the unpredictability that shouldn't scare us, it should excite you to some degree.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Or, or the knowledge that when you meet someone, excitement and insecurity go hand in hand. Of course you're anxious. Of course you're wondering. Of course you're unsure. Of course you're trepidatious, and you're excited, and you're expectant. It's all of this in a fantastic soup. It's not a problem. It is what happens when you have the mystery, meeting the longing, meeting the desire, meeting the uncertainty, and meeting possibility.

• 8:53Alex Cooper?

  How can someone tell the difference, though, between anxious butterflies and then when it's actually a warning sign that maybe something is off?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  But butterflies are often mixed with anxiety. That's the thing. It's, you know, it's part of the soup. You can't have butterflies that are just, you know, because, because the minute you start to be drawn to someone, let's explain why butterflies involve anxiety, because the minute you begin to be drawn to someone, the minute you start to experience any, any inklings of attraction or love, you also experience a fear of rejection, a sense of insecurity, a question about how much it is shared and mutual and reciprocal, and a fear of loss.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  They go together. You can't experience any love without also experiencing the fear of losing the love. So I think that the idea that you can have it clean without any anxiety is really taking us down the wrong direction.

• 10:01Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, it's like, if anything, there's something really beautiful about it because it means that there are stakes involved and you could get rejected and that's okay. You're putting yourself out there. Again, going back to your Spotify playlist recommends the exact songs that you also will like because you listen to the song and then you go on your app and it tells you the exact jeans that you should buy because you bought these last year. And it's like, the unpredictability is actually something that we should lean into.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:28Alex Cooper?

  Because there is so much unknown and there's things to explore about yourself and that person. But when we are so focused on figuring them out, it kind of completely denies the ability to grow and to grow into the relationship if we're just looking for the answer on day one.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Yes. If you want to take out all the wrinkles from the start, you're in trouble. Wrinkles are part of experience. And you don't, if it's basically taking out the wrinkles from the start is like taking out the experience.

• 11:02Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  When do I know that the butterflies are the sign that something is opening up and happening versus a sign that there is something that may be troublesome? The only way you know is context. And context means that you look for other signs. Is it all the time?

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Is it in writing? Can you have a conversation in person? Can you act? It's not just you put yourself out there. It's that, of course, you come with your vulnerability. It's part of you. If you're not vulnerable, you're probably not interested enough. Just let's put that out. You know, vulnerability is a sign that I care, that something important is happening here. I'm interested. And now I'm not sure. Are you interested too? Are you interested as much as me? Did you think about me as much as I thought about you? You know, I, instead of wondering, how many words shall I send before I show myself to be too needy and too dependent? No. You know, if you put it out and the other person answers in kind, you know that something is happening between us.

• 12:05Alex Cooper?

  Right, and if they don't, it's okay. Like, you will find someone else. Let's say someone finally is like, alright Esther, I am going to approach dating now. I'm going to be less stressed. I'm gonna allow myself to just move past that fear of the unpredictable and I'm going to lean in. I think we've heard people say, you know, this person checks all my boxes, right? In your opinion, when is it realistic to have a list of qualities you're looking for in a partner? And when does that actually end up instead limiting you?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Every time I'm talked to, I think about the list, the checklist, the boxes, this is that. I always think, do you put as much emphasis on who you want to be than who you want to find?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  I mean, it's like, what is this? This is the consumerism. I come with my checklist. I sit in front of you in a noisy bar and I'm gonna ask my questions and see if you check my boxes. That is such an awful experience. And if you think that in the middle of that, you're gonna get goosebumps or some butterflies in your belly, you're off the chart. Seriously.

• 13:14Alex Cooper?

  It's so true. It's also like.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Who do you wanna be? How do you show up? Who, what do you want? It's like so product, you know, I'm by, I'm coming to check if you, you fit the product.

• 13:25Alex Cooper?

  Wait, like, I wanna get a product review, like, are you a five stars? That's way like actually so humbling and I.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Do you do that?

• 13:32Alex Cooper?

  No, I was gonna say, I'm married and I even was like, oh, cuz I used to do that. And I think it's so honest, what you're saying is like, we all look inward. Half the time, we have expectations for people that we don't even meet ourselves. Like, some of the things I'm, I used to expect.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Who do you wanna be? I mean, you want a person to have this, this, this, this. Who do you want to be?

• 13:52Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  What do you bring? What do you want to offer? What do you want to share? Who do you want them to think that they are in the presence of? Rather than this one-sided, you know, um, this is, that's, you know, but the, the, the piece that would help a lot with that, Alex, is that there, and I think that that's one of the most off things on the dating scene is that the dating takes place in a completely secluded place away from your life.

• 14:22Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Dating takes place either virtually, maybe at some point you'll finally get to meet somebody in flesh. And, and basically, at some point, if you think something is really happening here, you'll have the big reveal and you'll bring this person to your life, to your friends, to your, you know, to, to, to, to present them. Instead of bringing the person in your life, I'm going to, whatever, I'm going to hike tomorrow, I'm going to look for antiques tomorrow, I'm going to bike tomorrow. Do you wanna join? Are you into this stuff? I'm going to the movies, I'm going with some friends, join us. That is, lower the stakes.

• 15:04Alex Cooper?

  Lower the stakes, Esther, that is such a brilliant and yet somehow simple concept that I don't know why we're not.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Cuz I tell you what I'm told, but that is so vulnerable, but your friends may judge you, your friends may not like me, but your friends are the people that know you the most. They will see, they will tell you, looks good, or they will tell you, no, not, not really, you know, and then you decide what you want anyway. But bring the person in your life. If it doesn't work, my life didn't miss anything. Otherwise, what happens is three times a week, I'm out there dating away from the people that I really care about and with whom I actually enjoy myself.

• 15:45Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  And then I come back empty handed sometimes and I have to report of my bad dates.

• 15:51Alex Cooper?

  Esther, we're done with first dates, being alone. No, like, I'm, I'm not kidding you as you're talking. I love it because, you know, it just made me think of something. I remember when I was dating, I had so much success when I would be at a bar or at an event with my friends. And if I met a guy there.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 16:12Alex Cooper?

  And he was with my friends and I, I ended up like we'd had the best night and then we'd go on a one on one date eventually.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 16:19Alex Cooper?

  But it weirdly let all of my, kind of my guard like was down.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Cause you're grounded in your life.

• 16:25Alex Cooper?

  And it was so, the stakes were so low. Cause I was like, I'm with my girls. If you blend in and then I would watch him interact with my friends.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  That's right. Data points. So many data points.

• 16:35Alex Cooper?

  Guys, I think that Esther Perel just solved, we can just end it right here. We are no longer going on first dates that are just solo at a table awkwardly. Like bring them when you are going out with your girls for drinks or bring them on the hike that you and your friends are going on and be like, my friends and I are doing this, wanna meet up with us? How, bring some of your friends.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  That's right. I was gonna go do this. You can even do it alone. I was gonna go do this. Would you like to join me? Meet around an activity that is part of your life where you have a certain confidence already and you can share something. You bring, you know, and then you will see, you may, you know, you'll come out of the movies, the theater, the, the whatever, the show and you say, oh, I have nothing left to say. And then you say it was nice. And then you still enjoy the show. Or you'll actually say, do you wanna continue talking? Shall we go have a drink? Shall we go have a bite? Shall we? And it's, it's in context. And all those questions about when do you know will become very, very different if you have a context.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Because this context gives you a felt sense and a felt sense is intuitive.

• 17:40Alex Cooper?

  And it's so much more important and accurate to your real life rather than your checklist of being like, okay, I remember I wanted to see if he does this and you're alone on your date and you're trying to hit your checklist.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you live? Where did you go to school? Where did you grow up? What do you do?

• 17:53Alex Cooper?

  Like, are you applying to be my assistant?

• 17:56Speaker 01

  It's a job interview.

• 17:58Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  It's a job interview. It's not, it's not a beginning of a, of a story. I mean, you know, relationships have stories. A first date is the first page of a story. And it will either be a short story or a novel.

• 18:11Alex Cooper?

  It's interesting because let's say, and I know everyone is obviously different and every circumstance is unique. But let's say, Esther, someone is like, okay, I am in the dating world. I'm taking all of your notes so far. But could you help me in what traits are actually important to care about in a future partner? Like, what should someone really be actually focusing on if they're looking for a long-term person in their life?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  I wish I could give you a blanket answer, but it really depends on you. You know, relationships thrive in complementarity.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  I am a person who is very solid, says one. I, I structure my life. I'm reliable. But sometimes I wish I was a little bit more flowy. I wish I was more spontaneous. I wish I didn't overthink things. And I welcome someone in my life that actually is more fluid, is more spontaneous, is, is less, you know, rigid like that and vice versa. That's a complementarity that's very common. If I can give you basic sets of human traits, yes, find someone who is decent. Number one, number one decency. Find someone who is kind, who enjoys giving,

• 19:32Speaker 01

  who likes to think about others and isn't just constantly making sure that they are the bigger piece on their plate. Find someone who, for some of us, it's, for someone who can.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  rejoice who really can wake up in a good mood because that's something that doesn't always happen to me find someone who if it matters to you has a sense of family find someone who has a sense of religion if it matters to you find someone who loves to travel if it matters to you find someone who can tolerate difference but ask yourself also can you tolerate difference

• 20:08Alex Cooper?

  right like look inward

• 20:10Speaker 01

  look inward don't just you know

• 20:12Alex Cooper?

  expect

• 20:13Speaker 01

  because even that question can become a list too

• 20:16Alex Cooper?

  I agree with you it's almost like you can't tell people exactly what to look for because I agree it needs to compliment you is there anything quality wise that you actually think we should start to devalue though as a society that people are looking too much for and that's not what we should be focused on

• 20:33Speaker 01

  yeah I think that so much of our pressures at this point are about focusing on the self and on the optimization of the self and on the self hacking and on the self fulfillment and the self worth and the self awareness and the self self self and and then even when you ask what should I look for in a partner it's what can this partner bring to me rather than what are each other's needs that we can cultivate together it's very different to say a we versus a you who is going to help me become more of myself and make me become the best version of myself you know you live in a big world there's

• 21:17Speaker 01

  a lot of things to think about besides just me

• 21:29Alex Cooper?

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• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:23Alex Cooper?

  Because I know that you are passionate about needing to invite a little bit of friction into our dating lives. What is the benefit of doing that? And can you explain what that even means?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  What that even means? When I said to you before that our technologies, our predictive technologies are trying to remove all the inconveniences. What they're trying to do is present you with a very polished life where there is no friction, no obstacles, nothing that you have to work through, which traditionally has always been seen as that which gives you a sense of resilience, that which gives you experience, that which is necessary for child development. It's true for little kids as well. They need friction. They need to resolve problems. They need to figure it out. They need to make mistakes and correct it. So do we.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  So that's friction. Besides that, I'm a sex therapist as well. And we have a, there's a beautiful formula of Jack Morin, a major sexologist, who that says, attraction plus obstacle equals excitement or desire. Obstacle is friction. It makes me want more when I don't have, and I have to reach out, and I have to seduce, and I have to be imaginative, rather than it's right in my lap.

• 26:47Alex Cooper?

  Well, and I was gonna say, I think it's important too to clarify, like, what is the difference between good friction and bad friction? Because I don't want any girls going like, oh, wow, we need to fight. We need to fight to feel the thrill upstairs.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking about toxicity. I'm talking about friction, talking about this that creates heat. It's really that. It's the ability to tolerate difference. It's the idea that other people will have very different versions of what just happened. And they're sitting right side by side with you. It's tolerance for conflict. It's rupture and repair. Friction is all the paradoxes or the contradictions that we feel in relationships. Attraction and disgust. Care and aggression. Rupture and repair. Trust and betrayal. These polarities are intrinsic. They are part and parcel of every relationship.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  They come and go. They move, you know? There are moments when you are deeply trusting and moments where you are suspicious. There are moments where you think, I can't take another minute of this. And then the next minute, you think, I can't take another day without it.

• 27:57Alex Cooper?

  It makes me think a little bit, and I feel like we all have those people in our life, where you kind of hear that friend be like, oh, my partner and I never fight. We never even get in little arguments. Like, what is your take on that?

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Trouble on the horizon.

• 28:14Alex Cooper?

  You're fucked.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  No, because, you know, conflict avoidance, or only doing that which we both like. We only see the movies the two of us like. We only go to the bands the two of us like. We create sameness at all costs. You know, at some point, it starts to feel like, in order not to lose you, I ended up losing major chunks of me. Every relationship, and you asked me before, you know, what are the things to look for? And I will answer it a little differently. I think that one of the most important tensions for all relationships, every dating story will have this, is how do I connect to you without losing me?

• 29:01Speaker 01

  And how do I stay connected to me without losing you?

• 29:06Speaker 01

  In every relationship, you will find that there is one person that is often more in touch with the fear of losing the other, and one person more in touch with the fear of losing themselves. One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment, and one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. And they often meet. You can give me any list you want. This is not what you look at when you are a couple of therapists. What drew you together has very little to do with, we like the same band, and we like hiking the same mountains, and we both like skiing and outdoors, and none of it. Or we are foodies. That is not what is really being played out in terms of the relationship dynamic. So when you never fight,

• 29:50Speaker 01

  you are trying to basically smooth out the wrinkles, the differences, the tensions, the autonomy. Because this is how you negotiate separateness and togetherness. This is probably the most important task of any relationship. What should you be trying, what am I looking for? You're looking for someone with whom you can, and depends if you are capable too, to negotiate. What is together and what is autonomous? What, where are we separate? Your friends, your activities, your interests, your careers, your family, and what is ours? What is the we and what is the me?

• 30:33Speaker 01

  That's what happens in relationships. You can have the most common tastes with your partner. If these things don't work, that's where you will have trouble.

• 30:43Alex Cooper?

  You know, it's interesting because

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Follow me?

• 30:46Alex Cooper?

  Not only do I follow you, I'm already in my head being like, that needs to be clipped? And every human being needs to watch that clip? Because what the fuck? No, no, no, like it's so real when you're talking about how in relationships, like one is more afraid of being abandoned and one is more afraid of losing the sense of self. Like if everyone just pauses you, I know who I am in the relationship with my husband in that dynamic. And like, I'm sure

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Are you the same with him as you were with others? Cause it's not static.

• 31:18Alex Cooper?

  No, yeah.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  It changes from relationship to relationship. It's not like I'm always in that position. Cause my attachment style is always the same.

• 31:25Alex Cooper?

  It changes.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  It changes.

• 31:27Alex Cooper?

  You need to go through some friction because you need to see how you two argue. And I'm not saying arguing is healthy, but like at some point, human beings cannot just go through life and just have no issues. That's just not how life goes. So it's like the beginning of relationships. It is sometimes important to see if you are almost compatible in the way that you handle conflict. And I think a lot of people can be like, oh, we're getting married. We haven't had one issue. Do you think it's concerning if people have never had one problem and already like, we're getting married, we've never fought a day in our life?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Oh, it's just a matter of time. At some point they will, they will. But here's the thing, the research is very clear on this, Alex. It's really not so much the conflict itself as the repair. There are couples that are way more volatile. They bicker more, they argue more, it's faster, it escalates. It's really, can they make up? And how do they make up? And do they make up just by kind of smoothing it over? Or they make up and they actually are able to acknowledge what they contributed to the argument? And the repair is more important than the actual conflict.

• 32:41Alex Cooper?

  And when you get to repair, how important is compatibility then in communication styles?

• 32:49Speaker 01

  What matters the most is not compatibility in communication styles, but accountability. It's the ability to say, I was threatened and I just lashed out on you. I just said things that I wish I didn't say, but when I'm scared or when I fight, I sometimes don't know where to stop. I take full responsibility for this. I realize that when I said that, I was not paying attention to what you had said before, to your needs, to what you had asked from me, to how I let you down. It's the ability to take responsibility without shame.

• 33:19Alex Cooper?

  And do you suggest, or again, does it not matter? Should repair happen in the moment or can you wait?

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Great question. So some people can do it in the moment, other people need 20 minutes, two hours or two days. So if you are with someone who needs two days, don't start talking in the moment. They're totally dysregulated, they can't listen, they're not yet there, wait. But this is what happens is that you have one person who needs to make sure that we don't go to bed.

• 33:50Alex Cooper?

  Upset.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Upset. And the other one who just doesn't, not, not, don't give me one more word or I'm gonna.

• 33:55Alex Cooper?

  Explode.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is where you, one needs to learn to engage sooner and one needs to learn to wait longer.

• 34:03Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, that's something that I've always found interesting in the dance of relationships.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  That's friction, by the way.

• 34:08Alex Cooper?

  And also there has to be a level of respect, right? Because I remember my husband and I in the beginning days, he would want to handle it immediately and I would be like, I need a second.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 34:20Alex Cooper?

  And then we, we would both be like, wait, like, and then it would, we almost need to find our common ground of like, okay, I can't go into a hole for three days and ignore you. So I'm gonna, we need to find our middle ground of where we both can respect each other, that you need some reprieve right now. You can't just be waiting for three days. And also I though can't have this conversation in 20 minutes. So where can you meet in the middle? Again, that just takes accountability, right?

• 34:44Speaker 01

  It's accountability and it's acknowledgement of the differences.

• 34:47Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, you're needing the three days is not because of me. You need three days is because of who you are and how you've learned to calm down and whatever history you come with. And the the most important piece about it is not to personalize it. Then I can say, look, after a day, because I'm not sure that you like the three days. Maybe you actually would love it if it was just half a day, but you don't know how to do it. Because, you know, you wait, you wait, you wait till all the nervous system kind of sets back in. You've gone three times to do sports, whatever you needed to do to kind of, you know, get yourself back to ground zero. I could help you, actually. That's the thing. I may actually be able to tell you, hey, you're not gonna lose face

• 35:32Speaker 01

  and you don't have to feel like you're giving in and giving up if you talked to me two days before and I'm not going to attack you. Can we sit and just look at what happened here? So I'll help you with the three days. It's not just the middle, because it's nice to meet in the middle ground. It's that I have something you don't have.

• 35:52Alex Cooper?

  Right, because I'm not arguing or fighting with myself. Like, there's another person that has the keys to the answers of why they acted that way and why I acted that way.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, where did you learn to need three days? I think that something that would be very useful for all your listeners is the typical thing is to say what do you fight about?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Rather than what is it that you're fighting for?

• 36:19Speaker 01

  And when you look at what people fight for, Mark, Howard Markman summarized it really beautifully. He's a researcher on couples. And he said, people fight about a few major things. The first one is people fight for power and control. Whose decisions matter most? Whose needs get priority? Who gets to decide? Much of our fighting is actually about power and control. It doesn't matter if it looks like it's about money or the kids or the parents or my activities or your friends. The second thing we fight about is care and closeness. Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Will you look out for me? Can I rely on you?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  And we don't say I fight about trust. We fight about you didn't call me and you didn't tell me we're gonna be late and you didn't tell me that you had visited these people and you didn't share that with me and I didn't know you tell ChatGPT this and that. You know, care and closeness. And the third one is respect and recognition. Do you value me? When you didn't invite me to join you, we can talk about how I wasn't included. But the issue is I didn't feel valued. I don't feel like I'm important in your life. So power and and control, care and closeness and respect and recognition. Power, trust and value. That's what most fights are about.

• 37:46Alex Cooper?

  Shit.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  If you get away from all the what, you will actually understand why why people get so upset.

• 37:55Alex Cooper?

  It's so.

• 37:58Alex Cooper?

  I'm so happy you're here. I'm gonna say that a million times today. It's so real because I can already see it. I'm sure everyone else can that's watching. It's like you're you're venting to your friend and it's like, I'm waiting for him to text me and I'm it's driving me insane because then I found out he ended up going to the dinner and he never even invited me. And I just don't like, I don't even understand. I'm just so over it and I'm done and I like actually fucking hate him and I'm over it. And what you're saying is like, okay, slow down for a second because this is someone you love and get underneath like what is it that's actually upsetting you? And that probably would fall, I would assume into the category, the last one, right?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 38:35Alex Cooper?

  Where you're just like, you're looking for the recognition and you want to be respected and seen and a part of their life.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  You want to feel like you mean something to someone. And when you went alone and you didn't tell me or you didn't invite me, you didn't include me. I'm like, you know, mashed potatoes.

• 38:53Alex Cooper?

  I don't feel valued.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  That's what hurts. I don't feel valued.

• 38:56Alex Cooper?

  And I think what you had said earlier, even in the dating that really applies to this is what's so hard in conflict resolution between couples is so much, almost a lot of time in no matter what argument it is, also starts in power in terms of like, I don't want to admit I was wrong here or whatever, but it also is power in terms of like, it requires you to actually get vulnerable to solve it.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  You know what is the most beautiful power? One of them. There's so many. But I have often said to people in sessions,

• 39:32Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think about an episode on the podcast that people could go listen to that kind of instantly speaks to that, where I say, the person who apologizes first is often the person who has the most power.

• 39:46Alex Cooper?

  I love that.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Do you understand?

• 39:47Alex Cooper?

  Roll that again, because we feel the weakest, right?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And especially those for whom this feels weakening, to admit, to acknowledge, to take responsibility, to say I made a mistake, or I was wrong, or I went too far.

• 40:00Alex Cooper?

  Why do they have the most power?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Because if I say that to you, it is more likely that you will say, A, thank you, B, I appreciate this, three, you feel seen, four, you realize that

• 40:18Speaker 01

  we're both in this together.

• 40:19Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  And, um, and five, it's not so bad. I can get over it.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Because my admission is all you needed. I don't need to, you know, stretch myself on the floor. It's not, I shame myself and make my, I'm just simply saying to you,

• 40:40Speaker 01

  it's this, it's that gesture with my head. I know, I see, I own it, I take my responsibility. And then usually what do you do? You say, well, I wasn't at my best either.

• 40:52Alex Cooper?

  Right? Then they'll meet you there.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  You'll meet me there. You'll meet me there. That's power. That's power to, rather than power over.

• 40:59Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, because there's such a difference between, I was gonna be like, okay, power sounds negative, right? Power sounds like you have something over people. Because I remember growing up, my mom would always say, like, the person who cares the least in the relationship.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Has all the power.

• 41:17Alex Cooper?

  And it pisses people off when you say that they're like, that's not true. And he's like, no, no, the person who cares the least has all of the power. They don't give a fuck. So you're constantly trying to get their attention and get them to care and get them to, and you're the one that's aggressive towards, and the other person can just sit back and be like, I'm fucking chilling. That's toxic.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Why are you making such a big deal?

• 41:38Speaker 01

  You know, what's, what's the big deal? Can't you just, you know?

• 41:42Alex Cooper?

  And that's toxic power. That's using power in a way that's not fair in the relationship.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Why is it toxic?

• 41:49Alex Cooper?

  Because you're...

• 41:52Speaker 01

  What is the tone when you say what you just said?

• 41:54Alex Cooper?

  I think it's, it's a imbalanced relationship in a way that feels manipulative. Like they're using that.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  There's a word for it.

• 42:02Alex Cooper?

  What?

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Contempt. What, what stands out when you say, what's the big deal? Why you need to, to always overblow things? You always have to make such a big drama, you know? Just, you know, that.

• 42:16Alex Cooper?

  Just relax.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Just chill, just relax, just keep it in perspective, just, just, just, meaning what's wrong with you? And what's wrong with you says, I have contempt.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Which is really the number one killer, actually.

• 42:39Alex Cooper?

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• 43:23Alex Cooper?

  everyone has habits, mindsets, or patterns that don't serve them. But recognizing what they are and learning how to let them go can be so important. It's literally the first step towards creating meaningful change. And therapy with BetterHelp, one of the leading online therapy platforms, can be a space to explore where those patterns come from and develop healthier habits and mindsets for a more fulfilling life. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp has served millions of people globally. BetterHelp makes it easier to fit therapy into your routine with flexible ways to connect that work for different schedules and lifestyles. Plus, BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1,000 hours on hand experience and hold all required education, training, and certifications.

• 44:07Alex Cooper?

  You can meet with a range of professionals from marriage and family therapists to social workers and counselors. So Daddy Gang, if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's betterh-e-l-p.com/daddy. When is it betrayal to go and share too much with friends or family about issues you're having in your relationship?

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Every biography is a betrayal of someone else.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  You cannot tell your story without telling things about people who are in your story who didn't ask to be spoken about. That's by definition. I mean, this is the era where more people have written biographies than ever before. Every person has a biography to write. So a biography tells my story in the context of many relationships with others who didn't ask for the story to be told. Every biography is a betrayal, a small one, but it's a betrayal.

• 45:11Alex Cooper?

  Okay, wait, but Esther, doesn't it, it helps you to some degree process when you get to...

• 45:18Speaker 01

  I didn't mean to say therefore you shouldn't tell.

• 45:20Alex Cooper?

  You're like, oh, girl, get after it.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  But you need to know that that's what we do. And I've, look, I've had more than one, in this instance, men in hetero relationships tell me, you know...

• 45:39Speaker 01

  If I knew...

• 45:42Speaker 01

  It's about how much my partner, my girlfriend, my wife, whatever, my girlfriend tells her girlfriends about us, betrayal would be redefined.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  I think that there is often a sense among women, girls, that it's not a betrayal because I'm talking to my best friend.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Whereas for many people, many men, who are much less likely to share that much about their girlfriends to their male friends, if they were to discover all what she is able to put out there, betrayal would be redefined. And I think that there is something to think about that. Now, when you talk to your girlfriends, the question is this: are you ever actually saying what you have done as well? Or are you only talking about what he or she or they did to you? And that's where the girlfriends can come in and say, "Look, everything starts with the name of the other person. Alex did this, and Alex said that, and Alex didn't,

• 46:48Speaker 01

  and you know what Alex did, and what Alex again did? Alex, Alex, Alex." At some point, you want to say, "And where is Esther in the story? And if Esther is not mentioned, and what did you do?" You know, when I see a couple and I see one person telling me a story, and then when the other one arrives, it's like everything this one left out is what this one starts with.

• 47:11Alex Cooper?

  But how, though, then, Esther, do you protect the privacy of your relationship without fully isolating yourself from your friends and your family?

• 47:19Speaker 01

  It's in the tone, it's in the way... Of course, you come to your friends. "I'm struggling with something. I don't know what to do." And good friends sometimes give advice and sometimes really make space and listen. And just say, "You will figure this out. I'm here for you if you need to." Sometimes I need to tell you, this is what I think is happening now. You need to talk to her. You need to tell her what's happening with you. You know, you're dealing with loss, you're dealing with illness, you're dealing with children, you're dealing with no work, you're dealing with loss of your best friends, whatever. You need to be able to to talk. But talking is not the same as dishing.

• 48:01Alex Cooper?

  Right, and also starting more with I statements rather than the constant and then he did this and then he did this.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Blame, blame, blame, blame. And I'm the victim of the other person's doing. That is not always the case.

• 48:14Alex Cooper?

  Interesting. I do find that like emotional depth and intelligence, I think sometimes a lot of women write in just feeling like I really like him in the beginning, it's been fun, but like

• 48:27Alex Cooper?

  I'm starting to wonder if he's emotionally intelligent enough and can go deep with me enough. And I'm starting to go to my friends and family when I'm going through hard things or when I'm looking to have an intellectual conversation because he can't meet me there. Like, how do you gauge if your partner is emotionally intelligent enough to match where you're also at in your life? Because that's a very elusive, hard.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  By going outside of your own definition. You're the, what you think is emotionally intelligent may not be his vocabulary. And maybe the day something happens to you, he will show up and he'll deliver and he'll be there for you without many words. We have many vocabularies. Words is one. And we are, girls are often more trained to be in verbal vocabulary. We talk, you know, partly because we've been taught to distrust our bodies. So we became masters of talk intimacy. But intimacy can be experienced in a lot of different ways that don't involve the only words. And

• 49:31Speaker 01

  by the way, we talk with our bodies for eighteen months before we utter the first word. So our mother tongue is often physical.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Emotional intelligence and intellectual compatibility is different things. You know, um, if you, if it's very, very important for you to be with someone with whom you can have these meaty conversations, know that upfront. Know that upfront. If you say discussing what, how I should handle my mother is not something that I do talk about with my boyfriend, because I don't think that, that his advice, then go to your girlfriends. Do not think that one person can give you what an entire village should provide. A boyfriend is wanting a boyfriend. A girlfriend, if you're a girl, is wanting a girlfriend. We need a community. You need to diversify.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Better relationships, stronger relationships are often diversified. You know exactly, when I have this kind of issue or this kind of interest, that's not where I go. I have my friends with whom I, I share those things and I have my friends with whom I talk about those things. That is not what I do with my partner and that is okay.

• 50:41Alex Cooper?

  It's okay. Okay. Let's talk about cheating. We're back, girl. Let's get into cheating. Everyone's oh so favorite topic.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 50:53Alex Cooper?

  When there is infidelity, I think as of recent, and because this didn't obviously used to be it like, you know, in, in previous generations, but there is an expectation now, it feels, that the relationship has to end if there is infidelity, especially when the woman is cheated on. There's a lot of shame from other women being like, you have to leave, you don't respect yourself, get the fuck out of that relationship. Why do you think there is so much shame on a person staying? And should there be that level of shame?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  I love the question because, um, because it is probably one of the most important changes that took place between your grandmother and you.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  You know, when marriage was a one stop enterprise from which you could not get out, then you had no choice but staying.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Everything changed with divorce, with the democratization of divorce, with no-fault divorce, and with women being in the workforce so that they can actually take care of themselves and not worry about the destitution and the loss of their children. And now that you can leave, you should go. If you stay, it becomes a sign of no self-esteem, no self-confidence, weakness, the opposite of what it used to be. The fact that you actually can forgive or can rebuild, or that not every infidelity is actually a sign that your relationship is over and that staying and reconnecting and rebuilding the trust

• 52:30Speaker 01

  is actually a sign of strength rather than weakness has really become a challenge. And the younger you go, the more this takes place. This is the belief system of the moment.

• 52:41Alex Cooper?

  And why do you think, although I feel like this is a very obvious question, I just have to ask you because I want your opinion. Why do you think women disproportionately bear the shame of staying? Because there are men who stay after getting cheated on, you know?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yes. That is very cultural. When I work in Mexico or anywhere south of the border, that is not the case. You only know it more from the women. You know, when a woman stays and is quiet about it, you may be sure that the silence of the man is even bigger. What kind of a man are you that you would stay? With a woman, nobody says, "What kind of a woman are you?" We just say, "What kind of a low self-esteem woman are you?" But we don't challenge the whole constitutional element called woman. We just think about her strength of character. With him, we say, "What kind of a man are you that you let your wife,

• 53:40Speaker 01

  you couldn't control your wife, do those things, and you still choose to be with her? You're not a real man."

• 53:50Speaker 01

  So it's misleading to think that this is the pressure is more on women. The pressure is more overtly on women. But that pressure is usually even bigger on men.

• 54:01Alex Cooper?

  Right, because it's emasculating.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:04Alex Cooper?

  What conversations do you think need to take place in order to make the relationship work after someone has cheated? Because I know you meet with couples and you do help repair relationships.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  So I spent ten years studying infidelity, wrote State of Affairs about it. And um and and began to really, I I I have a list of one hundred fifty questions, really, that it wasn't just one. But I think the most important set of questions come from this distinction. Try not to go for the facts. Where were you? When did you do it? How often did you do it? Did you do it standing? Did you do it lying? Did you keep your clothes on? Did you bring them to the house? Did you did? Don't go for the meaning. What did it mean for you? Why do you think you did this? And what were you thinking about us as this was happening?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  And do you want me to forgive you? Or do you think I actually would be more respected by you if I didn't forgive you? Do you think you are forgivable? Would you have accepted something like that from me? Go for the investigative questions rather than the detective questions.

• 55:17Alex Cooper?

  Right, for the meaning, not the fact.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  For the meaning, not the fact. Because it's in the meaning that you will also understand, did it have anything to do with you? Or with your relationship? Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with you? Which is hard to believe, but is actually a lot of the time the case.

• 55:33Alex Cooper?

  Really?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the fact that I felt lousy about myself, that I felt lonely, that I didn't really feel like you were giving me enough attention. Or that that I thought, you know, suddenly somebody is laughing at my jokes again and, you know.

• 55:48Alex Cooper?

  But is that then inadvertently kind of about the other person? Like, what drives someone to cheat?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Let me tell it to you in one sentence. That that to me became a a real, sometimes I people go to look for the gaze of another. Not because they're looking for another partner, but they're looking for another self.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Not that they want to leave the person that they are with, but they want to leave the person that they have themselves become.

• 56:21Alex Cooper?

  Oh shit.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  What they're dealing with is their depression, is their loss, is their grief, is their aging, is their whatever issues inside, is the way that they lost themselves into, you know, they forgot who they are and all of that. And that's what they are reclaiming. And their sense is that they can't reclaim it in the same place where they lost it. But it's not the other person's fault that they lost any of it.

• 56:48Alex Cooper?

  It's also so hard though, because you're like, yes, it may not be about you, but it impacts you obviously so deeply. And it's almost, I wonder for people, have you found when you're in these moments and you're talking to these couples, is it more infuriating for the partner that got cheated on to be like,

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Ah, that's a good deal.

• 57:06Alex Cooper?

  I didn't do, like, this is all about you. I couldn't, like, it wasn't even because like I wasn't like having enough sex with you.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 57:12Alex Cooper?

  Like, there's nothing I can change? You just were gonna do this no matter what?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Yes, you were into women, you were into this.

• 57:16Alex Cooper?

  Like, which is easier for someone to...

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Depends who. So I think the most important piece that you're saying here is that every thinking about infidelity in a relationship is a dual perspective. What it meant to you and what it did to me.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  So the first thing in phase one is I need you to know what it did to me. You don't go instantly for what it meant. What it did to me, how you hurt me, how you deceived me, how you lied to me, how you betrayed me, how you had duplicitous, all of that. And do you feel bad about that? Do you experience guilt or remorse? If I don't get that, there's nowhere to start. Even if you had good reasons for doing what you did, you need to be able to know what it meant, what you did to me with it. Especially if it has nothing to do with me, even more so.

• 58:05Alex Cooper?

  Do you find when you've done couples therapy that the person who cheated is usually capable of meeting the partner there?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  If they don't, then you have a bad, that's a bad sign. If they don't, and if they only justify, and they, you know, but those are also people who typically will say it's because of you.

• 58:25Alex Cooper?

  You're like, there's patterns here, Alex.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  That kind of goes together. So generally, I give you an out, because I'm telling you, even if you had good reasons...

• 58:36Speaker 01

  And you don't feel guilty about what you did. You need to be able to feel guilty for what it did to your partner.

• 58:41Alex Cooper?

  Have empathy.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Have empathy and take responsibility. It's both. It's always the empathy and the accountability. It's two parts. And then,

• 58:53Speaker 01

  what are you doing to give value back to your relationship? You now have to prove to your partner, because a betrayal is a devaluation of the other person. I didn't think of you. I didn't care about what it would do to you. I put myself first. It's all of that. What are you doing now to redeem the relationship? And that's on you. And that, one of the main ways you do it, is that instead of waiting for me to ask you another question, did you, did you come to this restaurant? Did you take her here? Did you go there? You are the one who say, when we pass in front of the restaurant and we drive there and you say, we didn't come here. And you preempt me. Because what you think is that all my questions is because I want to make your life difficult.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  That's not the case. I question you a hundred times the same question, because what you did has just shattered my reality. And I don't trust myself anymore, because I thought I knew my reality. And now I think that everything I thought was real was actually possibly not. So I come back to ask you the same thing, because I need to kind of reconstitute my reality.

• 1:00:00Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  That's what I'm doing with you.

• 1:00:02Alex Cooper?

  It's like, must be so hard too, because I could see the person that cheated wants to move forward. But the other person is like, I need you to know I'm actually, if I'm deciding to move forward, I'm not actually trying to hold you against the fire forever of being like, did you come to this restaurant? But I would love if you could meet me there and trying to just fill in the gaps for me, so I don't have all these question marks.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  If you think of it at that moment and you tell me, then I learn to trust you again. That's actually where the trust gets rebuilt. Because now I'm not thinking that I'm the only one who cares about what happened. I'm the only one who's hurt. And the only one who thinks that we've just taken a big hit in our relationship. I know you're in it with me. And that allows me to then think about something else.

• 1:00:45Alex Cooper?

  Even as uncomfortable as the brutal honesty can be from the person who cheated, that is the beginning of repair.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes. But sometimes, before you ask a question. And this I'm gonna say to all our viewers here, ask yourself, do you want to know the answer to your question? Or do you want your partner to know that you have the question?

• 1:01:09Alex Cooper?

  Hmm, give me an example.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Did you fall in love with her? Did you think about leaving me? Did you hope I would never find out?

• 1:01:20Alex Cooper?

  Wait, what if we do want to know those questions? I'm like, did he?

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. Do you want to know the answer to your question? Because then you have to deal with the consequences of knowing.

• 1:01:30Alex Cooper?

  I think I would want to know if someone had fallen in love. If if my husband cheated on me and I think I would need to know, like, are you in love with her? Because then like, we have to be done, right? Go be with her.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  That's you.

• 1:01:43Alex Cooper?

  Right, some people don't want to know.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  But another person in very different set of circumstances.

• 1:01:47Alex Cooper?

  I would ask.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:49Alex Cooper?

  I would need that.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Fair enough.

• 1:01:51Alex Cooper?

  Because that for me would just be like.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  But you just answered me. I need to know because I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of knowing.

• 1:01:59Alex Cooper?

  I see. And some people would be like, I don't want to know because no matter the answer, I'm willing to work through this.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  I just did an episode on on my podcast, a twenty-five-year affair.

• 1:02:10Alex Cooper?

  Twenty-five years?

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's not necessarily for the for our viewers here, but it is maybe your parents.

• 1:02:16Alex Cooper?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  And she is clear that she doesn't want to leave. Because she's also very clear that they actually had a very good marriage throughout those twenty-five years. And that is true too. And things are not so black and white. And it is not my job to tell this person, nor any friend's job to tell this person and talk about the shame. Because twenty-five years you have a lot, the she doesn't want the family to know. Because she doesn't want them to pity her for staying with him. And she doesn't want them to be angry at him because then she can't love him if they're all despising him. So she's not carrying the secret about the secret.

• 1:02:56Alex Cooper?

  Right. And the shame, it, that's so.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  And we don't have, we can't be so judgmental about that.

• 1:03:03Alex Cooper?

  No, we can't. It's like, I've had people on the show before that have come on and talked about staying after cheating. And the way the internet has just like torn these women apart. And it's like, but it's their life. And everyone's like, well, you don't respect yourself and you and it's like, but. Do you know that? Do you really? You don't know that. This person may have done so much work within that relationship to repair it. Like, why are you so triggered? It's her life.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Look, everything on where should we begin was to say to people, we don't really know what's happening in the private lives of other couples.

• 1:03:41Alex Cooper?

  At all.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  And it's very easy these days because you can anonymously state your opinions on every platform you want without any consequence.

• 1:03:51Alex Cooper?

  Is there, Esther, a timeline in terms as a couple therapist that you're like, repair should fall within a little bit of this timeline? If not, like, you can't keep going back and forth of like, you cheated, I need these answers, and we're five years down the line? Or can it just be forever?

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  No. No, I think, I think, yeah, you can be forever, but you will be stuck in a marital cell, you know, or a relational cell of any sort. No, I think that sometimes if, if you can't accept it, if you can't learn to live with it, if you can't find a place for it in your life, then you may need to make a decision. Or if you live with someone and you've done all the repair and all the showing up that was necessary, and your partner is still coming back to you every day, every time you're five minutes late, you may need to think about that. What do you want to do? So, no, I don't think people need to remain stuck in misery, you know, and, and in blame cycles all the time.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  But at the same time, for some people, they still prefer that. You know, and, um, and you make sense of it. You understand why they prefer that. You understand the stories and the childhoods they've had, et cetera. Um, it's, it's very important for us not to become, um, the public square.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  That oozes with uh with judgment about as if we know when we don't. We don't know if people had also taken care of elderly or sick children or there are other reasons.

• 1:05:38Alex Cooper?

  I love that too, just even to close out on that cheating chapter for anyone listening like we all have those people in our life that whether it's your sister or your friend or whoever that stays. There is understandably a anger within you as someone who loves them because you are protective of them. And you you think I want better for them. But again, we all know the extreme level of intricate detail that goes into why we are who we are, that no one will ever understand, even if you explain so many times, like you're living in your own body with your own trauma and your own history.

• 1:06:20Alex Cooper?

  And so as much as you say you want better for them, if they genuinely are saying to you, this is what they want. At some capacity, you have to also relinquish control of trying to dictate other people's lives, because what does it affect you?

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  So there are two parts of the what they want that I think are often not spoken up.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  It's one thing to think you are not trustworthy, but it's another thing to doubt your own self-trust, your own self-confidence. And the idea that you could have made a bad decision, that you made a bad choice, that the deal, the bargain that you struck with yourself, that you were going to be with somebody who would never do such a thing to you. That you purposefully didn't stay with the person with whom you had much more passion and much more intensity. You chose someone who was safe and sable and stable and you thought that person will never cheat on me. My ex did that. And then this person does it. And then you have to deal with your own reckoning. So that's one.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  The second one is that sometimes you stay, not because you're weak and because you let the other person roll all over you, but because you're actually silently admitting to yourself that you know that you contributed in some way too. I mean, the loneliness is one of the most important reasons why people seek connection elsewhere.

• 1:07:48Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Daddy gang, let's get real, okay? We like to make our own rules. Southern New Hampshire University gets it.

• 1:08:30Alex Cooper?

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• 1:08:50Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about intimacy. What do you do? Because I truly believe this is one of the biggest, most prominent issues in every single relationship, not every single, but a majority, is like when you and your partner have different ideas of intimacy, of how much you want it, of how often, like- Physical intimacy? Yes, physical intimacy. Touch, affection. Touch, affection, sex, like what do you do when you're on different pages in a relationship with that?

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  I think that the interesting thing is that people seem to be talking about sex with everybody, but the least is with the person they're actually having sex with.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  And in the beginning, you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about it. What's the, you know, and then you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to jinx it. And then you don't want to talk about it because you didn't talk about it before. And then, I mean, it's just like, you know, and then you only talk about it when there is crisis. For a lot of people, in, in, by the way, connecting it to the previous question, infidelity becomes the moment where people start to talk about a lot of things that they put under the rug for a long time.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  And finally, you know, the shit hits the fan, so now we start to discuss all our grievances, our resentments, our longings, our disappointments, our unfulfilled needs, et cetera, et cetera.

• 1:10:18Alex Cooper?

  And it's like, had you talked about that?

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:20Alex Cooper?

  Maybe it wouldn't have gotten there.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  No. And monogamy and all of those issues. It's like, you know, um, it, and, and more so in straight couples, actually. You know, especially around monogamy and questions like that, and exclusion and boundaries and all of that. So then, there is, what do we talk about? What is candid communication, you know, around physicality?

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  It's even, I touch you, do you like it? I saw, just saw you twitch, you know, do you want me to continue? Shall I stop? Instead of guessing, they seem to like it, they don't seem to like it, I don't know. You know, I, I do, they don't respond, is it because of me, is it because they're tired, is it be, you know, okay, I won't do it anymore.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Ask, check in, talk. Sometimes you may get unpleasant answers, that's okay. So that's the first thing. Then you have discrepancy of desire, you know. What happened there? I think that there is a big difference between sex and eroticism.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  Between doing the act, for which you may do a lot and feel very little. And doing very little for which you may feel a lot, which is the erotic that involves your imagination, touch, meaning. What, why the experience of it, rather than just the act of it. It's not just, sex is not just something you do, it's a place you go, it's where, a lot of things happen there. So, what happens to you? That's a question. Where do you go? Why do you hold back?

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  What ignites you? What blocks you? Is it on your mind? Is it not on your mind? Is there something that has been unpleasant that you've never talked about? Does it hurt and you never say anything?

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting. And many times, women, girls, wanted less, not because they're less interested in it, but because it's not the sex that they want. It's not what they're looking forward to. So, how much are you able to express that? Sometimes you do it in writing, sometimes you do it by playing a game, sometimes you... There are lots of ways that people learn to become more at ease talking about the very topic that they spend their entire childhood learning not to talk about. I mean, let's be facing that too. You take a subject that has constantly been hidden, and suddenly you need to be able to be all eloquent about. So that's not so easy. It's difficult.

• 1:12:52Alex Cooper?

  It's so difficult, and that's such a great point, even to just ease all of our minds. Like, I understand that it is sometimes really hard and awkward and to talk about it with your partner, because sometimes, from what I've experienced in the past and what people have written into me, is like, it just feels like if I approach this, it's going to come off like I'm not happy, and then it's going to be so awkward the next time we go to have sex, because he's just going to be thinking about like, well, you literally just complained that you're like not enjoying it, and it's like, no, the way that you approach the conversation can dictate so much of how it goes.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  The way you do it, you know, I wrote "Mating in Captivity" 20 years ago, all about what is desire in relationship, how do we sustain it? Then I did the Desire Bundle. It's a whole course with these kinds of questions. And one of the things I understood is, one of the main shifts that we as women need to do is instead of saying, "I don't enjoy it," is to say, "I would enjoy it a lot more if..." "I very much like when you do, and I would love it if you did more." Go with what you ask for. Women have always learned to say what they don't like when it comes to sex. They have not been necessarily trained to actually speak about their wishes, their needs, their preferences, their likes.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Go to your partner, male, female, them, and say, you know, I like when, I would love if, it would please me a lot if you could do that. That's a way to not have the other person the next time saying, oh shit, I don't want to approach you because you've just told me that you really don't like.

• 1:14:30Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  You know, and now I've lost my entire sense of confidence. I thought you liked it.

• 1:14:35Alex Cooper?

  And.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Cause you faked it.

• 1:14:37Alex Cooper?

  That, I love that so much too, because I think it's very relatable for anyone listening where you're in a situation where you become so comfortable with your partner in every aspect of life. And then this thing over here, that's one of the most important aspects of your relationship you never talk about. So then it does get awkward because the person that's holding on to not being as fulfilled by it, understandably, the other person's like, how long have you been feeling this way? Like, holy shit.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Right. What did I not know?

• 1:15:05Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  How did I miss it? You know, you, that's a form of lying too. Sometimes, by the way, that is a betrayal too. For six years, you haven't said a thing to me?

• 1:15:16Alex Cooper?

  Cause what is, what are they supposed to do?

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Or you've been fantasizing about someone else? Or about, or you've been not liking it? And, and, and, and make, and pretending to me? That sometimes hurts no less than you've been, cause you've been elsewhere. Whether you've been elsewhere alone, or you've been elsewhere. I feel like you have just, you know, I thought I was with you in this. And I've just discovered that I was by myself.

• 1:15:45Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about codependency.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:47Alex Cooper?

  Um, when you're in a serious relationship, understandably, your lives become fused together, right? You do so many things together, you're living together most of the time. What are some signs though, that you have gotten yourself into a situation that is fully codependent?

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  When you are cold, I'm not instantly cold. You've got your own body temperature. And I can say, oh, that's interesting. I can't say, how can you be cold? I'm not cold. Why should you be cold? I'm the thermometer. When you're hungry, I'm not immediately hungry. When you're tired, or when I'm tired, you're not instantly tired. We have a different system. But somehow, when you're upset, or when you're sad, or when you're anxious or worried, that instantly makes me anxious. Because your feelings are my feelings. If you're unhappy, that makes me unhappy. Or I think that you're unhappy because it's me. What did I do?

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  What did I do? What's wrong?

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  So, I use the temperature and the hunger and the tiredness because people immediately understand it. When it's physical, they understand where I stop and where you start. We are two separate people. We are close, we are not fused. We are not that enmeshed that what happens to me, happens to you. But when it comes to the emotional level, for many of us, that is not how we grew up either. We grew up with somebody who wanted their feelings to become our feelings. Their needs to become our needs. And so, we have not known where to know, where is the line where I stop and you start? That's where codependency lives.

• 1:17:38Alex Cooper?

  If someone is sitting here being like, you know what, Esther? There's a chance, there is a really good chance that I am in a codependent relationship. And I do like love my partner, and I think we've just like fallen into this. And it's really, it's not toxic by choice, like it just happened. What are some steps that you can take within your relationship to reconnect with yourself and build back your individual identity while still remaining in a relationship?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  I think the first thing you do is what belongs to you and what belongs to them. Don't personalize. It's a strange thing. It's what you said before, you know, somehow it's sometimes it's even worse if it has nothing to do with you. It's like, I would rather be part of a bad story than not be part of the story at all. Cast me, please.

• 1:18:32Alex Cooper?

  That's like literally the entire internet. They're like, this isn't my life, this isn't my situation, but I'm in it. And it's like, wait, why?

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, it's not your story. And if, when, and you know, sometimes what it means, because a friend can tell you something and you don't instantly think it's you.

• 1:18:49Alex Cooper?

  Why do people personalize it, though?

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  Because there are only two relationships that really mirror each other. The one you had with your family or your original caretakers, caregivers, and the one you have in your romantic intimacies. Those two match. People can tell you, I don't have this with any of my friends. And I believe them. I don't, you don't, I'm sure. You know, to maintain that differentiation is what we call this. That there are two people here. And when one person feels something, the other person can feel for them, but they're not feeling the same thing as them.

• 1:19:22Alex Cooper?

  Esther, I could talk to you for 10 hours. I am so happy that you came today because I needed, and I know the daddy gang needed all of this. I think even from the

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  You still call them the daddy gang?

• 1:19:37Alex Cooper?

  Daddy gang. Oh, they're still the daddy gang, girl.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  I remember the first time you told me that.

• 1:19:40Alex Cooper?

  I know, right? Oh, man, I remember the first time you said it and you were like, daddy gang, listen to me. And I was like, Esther Perel, just acknowledge the daddy gang. That was, oh my, that was everything. And it still is. Um, I am going to go back and listen to this and like, take notes. I have so many thoughts. I have so many episodes I want to make from this episode. Um, you're so wise and you're so brilliant and you're so warm and generous with your time. And I just can't thank you enough for taking your time. Cause I know you're so busy to like, sit down with me and give us and impart all of your wisdom on the daddy gang and myself.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  Listen, I care about it. And I see people struggling.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  More and more. And I also know that there is nothing that matters more in our lives. You know, it's like you have Daddy Gang, I have the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships and everything else follows from there.

• 1:20:37Alex Cooper?

  I can't thank you enough.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  It's a pleasure to be here.

• 1:20:39Alex Cooper?

  Oh, there's so, we can do another episode soon. We have so many topics we could have covered. I'm like, I know we went even for longer than I expected, but um, thank you, thank you, thank you. And congrats on all of your success. I love just watching you and the wisdom and all the things that you have given to society truly. And like, thank you. Thank you for always coming and stopping by and giving me your time.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Anytime.

• 1:21:19Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Klaviyo. So Klaviyo says it's your brand's best friend. Both claim, but here's the thing. Klaviyo knows your brand, your tone, your customers,

• 1:22:03Alex Cooper?

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• 1:22:46Alex Cooper?

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• 1:23:30Alex Cooper?

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