Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle: Intimacy, Cheating & Starting Over

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach! Glennon and Abby discuss their incredible love story, risking everything for each other, and why they believe it’s so important to never settle. They also discuss intimacy, childhood insecurities, overcoming addiction, cheating and how they’ve changed each other’s lives for the better. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:43Alex Cooper?

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• 1:28Alex Cooper?

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• 2:09Alex Cooper?

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• 2:49Alex Cooper?

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• 3:14Alex Cooper?

  What is up Daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 3:23Alex Cooper?

  Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  We made it.

• 3:27Alex Cooper?

  Wait, I'm like thinking about your daughter right now and we're like, yeah, they made it. Yeah, they made it. Okay, so she's a fan?

• 3:34Speaker 02

  She is freaking out today. This is the best day. She thinks we're finally cool. She said, "Moms, you know that that's where cool people go." She said, "Just tell them that you'll be their aunties." That's what she said.

• 3:46Alex Cooper?

  I love it. Well, I'm happy you're here. I was gonna say like to anyone watching, we've virtually met because you guys obviously came on my Paris Olympics show, virtually. So this is the first time we're meeting in person and I'm honored to have you guys here. How are you doing today?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  How are you?

• 4:02Speaker 01

  I'm great. I'm having a good day. I didn't have to work other work because this is the work.

• 4:07Alex Cooper?

  I love that.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  This is the best kind of work where you don't have to sit in a computer and make calls and get on meetings. So I'm so happy to be here. You know, Being not just a fan of you, but like watching you kind of blossom and grow and you began from the soccer world. It's just, I don't know, you're doing incredible stuff. And I just want to acknowledge that. Unwell, the sponsor of the NWSL, we're owners of the, of the Angel City team. So just good job. You're doing great.

• 4:38Alex Cooper?

  I really appreciate that. I think like, it was almost like a part of my life that I never really got to bring forward when I got into media because it didn't make sense. Like the Call Her Daddy girl, when I was talking about sex and relationships, like also played soccer and was like a competitive athlete. I'm like, those aren't making sense, but I knew at one point I would be able to bring that part of my life forward because the honest truth is I did that way longer than I did Call Her Daddy. Like since I was so young, playing soccer, you know how it goes. And so it's a part of your identity that feels weird. I'm well to get to, but like when you retire and when you're away from it, you're like, who am I without this thing? So it's been incredible to get back into it. And I feel like I literally called my mom. I was like, I feel like a part of me

• 5:20Alex Cooper?

  is back. Like I feel like I'm alive again and it's just, it's amazing. And to be sitting with you, I mean, Abby, like, no, your kids think I'm cool. Growing up, are you fucking kidding me? Sorry for my language. I just wanted to be you and you are so fucking talented in all the things. And so yes, bow down to you soccer fucking god.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  That's sweet. Thank you.

• 6:00Alex Cooper?

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• 6:41Alex Cooper?

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• 7:23Alex Cooper?

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• 8:07Alex Cooper?

  Try it out now by going to this exclusive web address, ziprecruiter.com/daddy. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com/daddy. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ritual. We are learning so much about how the gut microbiome is key to our mental health, immunity, and of course digestion. And I just feel like I didn't know any of this until recently, which is a problem because this is literally everything that we do need to know to take care of ourselves. But did you know, because now I know, the gut microbiome shifts during pregnancy, ladies, and these shifts can impact mom and baby's health in pregnancy and postpartum. And that is why Ritual created Nadel Biotic, a specialized biotic with clinically studied

• 8:51Alex Cooper?

  strains for pregnancy and postpartum microbiome support to support digestive health, mood, vaginal health, and baby's immune health. I have been trying so hard to take care of myself during this pregnancy, and I think something that has been very helpful is actually learning about the things that now I will carry, not only just during this pregnancy, but I will continue to take care of myself in a way that I really never have before. I think sometimes as women, we don't have the tools or we don't know what we're supposed to be doing, and so we sometimes just freeze and we don't do anything. And since having Ritual in my life, it has been so nice to have this daily ritual where I'm actually taking care of myself and my baby, which feels great. So whether you're pregnant, postpartum, or looking for everyday trusted daily gut support,

• 9:36Alex Cooper?

  get clinically studied biotics to support your gut health with Ritual. My listeners can save 25% off their first month at ritual.com/callherdaddy. That's ritual.com/callherdaddy for 25% off your first month. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Um, you guys, your book, first of all, congratulations. I know, obviously, you've written numerous books, but like, we can do hard things, doing it together. Congratulations. What inspired you guys to do this?

• 10:13Speaker 02

  We had a doozy of a year. Within the year, Abby lost her brother, Peter. I was diagnosed with anorexia, which I've been dealing with eating disorders since I was 10, so this was just the latest round. And my sister, who does the podcast with us, was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I think we just, we depend on each other so much, the three of us. And you know how when you have a small group, you usually, one of you keeps your shit together when the other two are losing it, right?

• 10:40Alex Cooper?

  So real.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  You have somebody who has a clue, but we just all lost it at the same time. And to survive, we started sending each other like little clips of things or little quotes. And then we started keeping them in files and they just became like these really helpful anchoring places. And we sent it to a friend and she wrote back and said, can you make this sort of file for every category of life for me? And we were like, huh, because it feels like sometimes the harder life gets, the more you forget everything you know, like it's a really bad system, like you should remember then. But there's a little bit of dissociation that comes with trauma. And I think that's what we figured out.

• 11:20Alex Cooper?

  One, I'm so sorry. Two, beautiful, because I feel like the hardest moments in life is really when you have to look inward. And like you said, you lose your way, you're like, what am I doing and what is happening? But there's a recalibration that happens because you have to go so deep inner strength. And then you know, who's the closest person to you? You're like, oh, wow, I really know I'm in love, or I really know this person, my sister, my family, whoever it be, that's there for you. If they really stand up, you're like, that is such an incredible support system that I've built for myself. And some people then come to realize like, well, fuck, I don't need this person in my life. They weren't there for me in a moment where I really needed them. So much of the wisdom you poured into this, I think is so applicable to my audience. So I kind of want to just like, go through it all.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:05Alex Cooper?

  Let's go back to the beginning though, because I want to get to know you guys better. And through that, we're going to obviously get the wisdom. Abby, growing up, you were the youngest of seven kids. Can you describe your personality as a kid when you were younger?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Great question. So being the youngest of a big family, for me, I had seven, six older brothers and sisters who all were very sports centric. My two oldest sisters played all the sports. My brothers played all the sports. And so I grew up like watching, like observing them.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  I was a pretty athletic kid. I was like jumping off the diving board at like two and I scored 27 goals in my first three soccer games. And it's because I was competing against like older people my whole life, you know, like I was playing against my brothers, playing against my, my sisters. And they never like just let me win. They were just like always like blocking the ball from me and like being their age, not just like bowing down to the little kid. And I think that part of like what made me so good is this desire, this like insatiable desire to win, to prove myself that I

• 13:22Speaker 01

  was like one of them. And with that also came a lot of probably not healthy behaviors. But I do think that there was a part of me that as a kid, I was just like pretty risk taking, was fearless. Like they would call it Abby Alert. I would just like run away. I would like hide. I didn't like have a ton of fear that that troubled me. So, and then I had athleticism. My brothers and sisters even now tell me like, you were ripped, like you had triceps and quads and stuff at two. And I'm like, is that possible? They're like, yes. So I guess I was just like this rambunctious kid who,

• 14:06Speaker 01

  and now after much therapy and looking back, was just really vying for the attention of my mom. Really like seven people were vying for that attention. Not possible. I mean, I'm glad they had seven kids because I wouldn't be here otherwise, but it was hard. It was hard emotionally for I think a more sensitive kid than I think I was allowed to be. Would you say that that, I know you don't, you didn't know me then, but you know enough.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  I dissociated after you said, I did not have a lot of fear that troubled me. I cannot understand that sentence.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Like, honey, what?

• 14:46Speaker 02

  The hell, what that must be like. I only have fear that troubles me.

• 14:53Alex Cooper?

  Glennon, we're getting to you. Hold on.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Go back, go back. I'm sorry. Carry on. I think that's beautiful.

• 15:01Alex Cooper?

  You're like, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. I hate you. What? Give me some of that. Um, no, that's so, because like I was thinking, even when you're saying that, two things. One, I think whenever we just have these like, I have these memories of you on the field and these like just iconic historic moments of you pushing through where so many people must just have been like, how the fuck is she still standing and alive on this field and still going and still bringing it? And then getting that backstory of you being like, oh, I've literally been doing this since I opened my eyes and could walk and breathe. And I'm the youngest and I think about, I only have two above me. I'm like, thinking about you being the youngest, that's what I was gonna ask you is like, how

• 15:42Alex Cooper?

  much of what you were doing was you just trying to get attention from your parents? Because a huge family and being the youngest, you're kind of just like getting tagged along a lot of the times and you're never getting the first backpack, you're getting the hand me downs and you're not, you know what I mean? So there's a lot of, you're just kind of having to go with the flow.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:00Alex Cooper?

  Do you think that that has impacted your personality as an adult?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yes, and um, it's, it's actually, I, I've called myself a recovering professional athlete for the last 10 years. Granted, I'm also sober, so I'm a recovering alcoholic as well. But having the experience that I had in my childhood, it gave me, I think, an edge in a way, being a professional athlete. But I think it was, it was like a maladaptive way of living as a normal person. And the way that I've been thinking about it recently is I thought being extraordinary was the way, was the path to getting the quote unquote, mother's love and attention that I think I was seeking.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And with that approach, I was able to win gold medals and I was able to win world championships for our country. But I got to the top of that mountain and there was no there there. There was no more, like I could get no more attention for what I was doing, literal. And maybe you have experience with this, that, oh, I, I was seeking this extraordinary life, this extraordinary effort, gold, Olympics.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  And honestly, like I gave myself the anthem to value it. That however, long it takes for the National Anthem to play and the gold medal was just put around my neck and I would step off the podium. And my first thought was like, I want to do that again. Like there's a the repetitive nature of professional sport and the new season and the next thing that wasn't conducive to true peace.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  And I think that when I met Glennon and I got three kids,

• 17:57Speaker 01

  the the drive towards the ordinary has allowed me to actually experience extraordinary coming into my life because it's being the extraordinary is coming in in a foundation that's built on true ordinary.

• 18:13Alex Cooper?

  That's incredible.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think and I and I I assume that you probably have a lot of of relatability to this, given where you're at in your life and in your career. It's just something to explore, like, what am I actually driving toward? And and when I get there, assuming you've gotten there, Alex.

• 18:36Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Will I like, am I asking myself the right questions to live a life that I really want? Like, what's the end game here? And that's something that Glennon was really good at, helping me craft, like, what is enough? What are we doing here? And in it, in and of itself, like this book that we've made asks ourselves, it's it's it's written in 20 different questions and 20 different chapters. So that you can start asking ourselves these questions like, what am I doing? Like, what is the whole point? Why are we here?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  All of it.

• 19:11Alex Cooper?

  Everything you just said, I relate to. Yes, you're right. You're like seeing right through me. I'm like, I, we just met, but I can, I feel it out. I I so relate to so many things you're saying. And I agree with the athlete thing of like, there's an identity crisis, but it you're also made to feel as though if you are going for something so big and so valued and so many people are going to look at you in this high regard and you just keep doing it and you just keep winning and it's so addictive, like it is, it's an addictive thing.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:43Alex Cooper?

  That then when you are sitting at home and. Really what you learn is it's actually kind of be more beautiful when you have just people around you and it's longevity and love and care and kindness and all of that in the house. But you're like, why is it quiet? Why is this boring? What's wrong? Like, I'm a loser now. I'm just sitting here and all my athletic ability. And then it's like, no, no, no, no, this is actually peace and this is beautiful. And it's not normal to every waking day be like, I have to one up what myself, I have to one up myself, I have to keep doing it. That can drive you insane and can also drive you to be depressed because then you're like, where I need that high, like, where is it? Where is it? And then you start to look for it elsewhere. Pausing on us, Glennon, then I'm thinking about you, like, how was your family dynamic growing up different than what Abby is describing hers was?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, we were a small family, which is my sister and I and my parents. How was it different? There was a lot less going on. We were like, kind of a little island. I was raised by a football coach, though, so I do know more about sports than I let on. Yeah, yeah, but my sister and I were just, I mean, sometimes when I go to Abby's house, it's actually quite hard for me because I don't, it's, it's, I'll say to Abby, I talked to everyone, but I didn't get to know anyone better at all. And I don't understand. We're just like saying things to each other, but we're not like learning about each other.

• 21:08Alex Cooper?

  It's so chaos.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  I just feel like I go in and then it's a swirling and then I leave.

• 21:13Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, welcome to a big family. You're like, what am I doing? Your head is spinning and you're like, this is normal. Abby's like, what are you talking about? We got so deep. We got to know that this one's dating this one. Like, what? Like, you're all you're like, but we didn't get into like the mental, like emotional. We didn't sit on the couch and talk for an hour and get deep. Like, I get it. I get it. What insecurities, I know you kind of mentioned, obviously, this past year that you recognized that you were diagnosed with anorexia, but back when you were in high school, can you talk to me about the insecurities that you struggled with?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  I don't know. I just remember feeling completely exposed and confused in high school. Like, I didn't know who to sit with or how to be. And I actually ended up, I became bulimic when I was 10.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  By the time I was a senior in high school, I ended up leaving school to actually go spend time in a residential treatment center. Now they have excellent eating disorder clinics, but back then it was like you just are in sort of a mental hospital. Um, and I really felt like the mental hospital was much saner than high school. I did. I felt like

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  You know, I felt like, oh, this is where we're able to tell the truth and we do art and we talk about feelings. And we're all, there's rules about how to be kind to each other. Actually, very much like 12 step meetings now. I love a 12 step meeting. I need a 12 step meeting. I need like a moment of truth where everyone's telling the truth about how hard and messy life is before I go out into the world and like adult and act like everything's fine.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  I know you were so young, but do you remember the first time you remember feeling like uncomfortable with your body?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yes. I, oh, I've, my whole life I've spent uncomfortable with my body. I, I, when Abby and I first got married, I would get dressed to go out and I would say, do I look comfortable? And she would say, I, I think that's something people have to answer for themselves. But really, I think I have spent a lot of time dissociated, like not in my own body. I live in my mind a lot. And this last eating disorder recovery has been a lot about living in my body, which sounds so weird, but has been an interesting process for me.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  I know. Sometimes I'll walk into the bedroom and she'll be like in bed and she'll be in like the most uncomfortable position that a body can be in. And I'm like, are you comfortable? She's like, I don't know.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  So she walks over and like arranges all the pillows in a different way.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  She's like, oh yeah, that feels much better.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And you're changing your clothes like 15 times just to feel more

• 23:58Speaker 02

  I do that.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  I do that like 10 times a day. It's very interesting. I don't know.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  When you're able to look back at like dissociating and obviously the bleming and everything, like, do you, have you recognized the through line of what was going on in your life at that young age?

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think the difference between this round of eating disorder. Recovery and all the low so many other ones I've been part of is that I think I kept my recovery in my head, which means that I said, obviously it's culture, it's misogyny, it's this world we live in. And I kept it very intellectual. And I think for the first time, I'm actually doing like family of origin work this time. And I think that there was just a lot of anxiety and anger in my home that manifested in very controlling angry

• 24:56Speaker 02

  energy that for a sensitive kid like me, I think my body in my environment wasn't a safe place to be. And so I just decided that my mind was a safer place to live. Wow, this is what happens. If you can send me this recording, I'm gonna get it right to my therapist. I feel like we're nailing it, Alex.

• 25:17Alex Cooper?

  We are, we're nailing it.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I think that's what happened. And so my mind not here is my safe place. That's why I can't tell when I'm not comfortable or I, you know, so reminding myself that I am safe now. Like, I think half of being a grown up is just reminding your nervous system that you're in a different environment now. And you are safe and you've created a life for yourself where there's safe people around you and you can just relax. And that's what, I mean, honestly, that's what my marriage to Abby has been. It's been the opposite of everything that I learned when I was little. It's just like absolute peace and safety.

• 26:00Alex Cooper?

  That's so beautiful, though, because so many people are not even fortunate to say that, to be like, a lot of times, we repeat patterns.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:07Alex Cooper?

  And there are so many people like, oh, my God, I did marry my dad. Fuck, like, gotta redo this one now. Like, that's, this is not working. And you being able to recognize, like, There was this feeling in your home that was unsafe and it made you not want to be in your body. And I think a lot of people, like obviously with eating disorders, I have a lot of people in my life, like a lot of it stems from control and that was the one thing you could control. And so now that you're able to explore this, I think it's beautiful and having a partner that's sitting next to you, that's like, I'm going to be there every step of the way for you. So you feel safe because going through therapy and uncovering things from childhood is, I don't even have a word for it. It's like you're rewatching for some

• 26:51Alex Cooper?

  people, like a nightmare that you don't want to open up. And for you to have someone that's just like there to guide you and even as cute as is, you walking and being like, are you comfortable? Can I adjust the pillows? It's no, it's, it's you need someone like that. You can't, no one can go through this shit alone. And that's what's so beautiful about this. Did you though, Abby, when you know, I'm talking about it with you, Glenn, and like, I'm thinking about being an athlete and there's such a fixation on our bodies as athletes and at every different stage, whether it's the early days to then obviously when you get like later on, did you struggle when you were younger at all with your body?

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Um, I never had like, I ate too much. That was my problem. Um, which I know is a form of an eating disorder. Um, I have a healthy case of body dysmorphia though, in that I'm sad that my body doesn't look like it used to all the time. So I do, you know, I have to, I have to very, be very careful on what I eat and work out and walk because I can no longer run because my ankles are all messed up. Um, so I've never really, I haven't experienced what Glennon experiences on a daily basis. And I think it's important that

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Like what you said around her having an environment where she feels safe to explore this stuff. And I think one of the things that a lot of us really run into almost all the time when we think about going back to our childhood is that now if we go back to our childhood, this now I'm deeming my parents awful people, people that are unlovable. And it's just not true. Like you can love your parents and appreciate for them trying their best. Because I do believe that there's a lot of, of our parents out there, mine included, that they did their best and it was just maybe not enough. And they are people too.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  And they, they had parents that might not have had the education or understanding that we have now. And so, don't let that fear of blaming or pointing towards a childhood prevent you from exploring that part of yourself.

• 29:14Alex Cooper?

  It's so real. Because I'm like, oh, I don't have kids yet, but I can imagine you guys feel this way. You're like, oh, I can't wait to find out how we fucked them up. Like, they're gonna come. And no one's life is perfect. Everyone feels. And again, it's, I love that you're saying that because there are some parents where it's like, whoa, this is like objectively, you fuck these people. But then there's also parents where it's like, yeah, you did your best. And I still have things from my childhood that really affected me as a human being that I can say that out loud. And it doesn't mean that you are this horrible human being. I, yeah, both things can be true. Did you though, Abby, like in your high school days, like, did you have any insecurities that you were dealing

• 29:56Alex Cooper?

  with that you felt like you weren't able to be open about with people?

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was a queer kid. I wore backward backwards hats, flannels. I went to an all girls Catholic high school and played sports. So, but I was straight. I had a boyfriend in high school. Really, really scared. I grew up in like a smaller town in Rochester, New York. And, you know,

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was really struggling because I had sat so many days of my life in the church pews. And my mom is, she's a very big church person. I was born and raised Catholic. And I was just like soaking up all of this

• 30:46Speaker 01

  energy towards what I knew that I couldn't say out loud. And I spent a lot of my time in the closet, not only for my family, but for myself. And I think it's, it's almost laughable now because when I look back at my teenage, high school self, I was like the most butch lesbian you've ever known. I mean, if I could have-

• 31:12Alex Cooper?

  Even I could tell, I have no gaydar.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, if I could have had this haircut, then I would have. But no, I had like the long ponytail and, you know, only wore it in a ponytail, slicked back ponytail all the time. And then another thing ended up happening where we have, we have queer kids and one of them came out to us. And it was like the most special thing that ever happened to me in my whole life because instantly what happened is I got scared. And I had this panic, this fear inside of me. And it made, we talked ad nauseam about this, Glenn and I, like, oh, it made me understand that my mom wasn't afraid of me. She was afraid for me because the world, especially in like the late 90s, was not what it is today.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Queerness was not cool, especially being a queer lesbian was not cool. It was like this underground mysterious place that you had to like go find. And, and now I understand like, oh, as a parent, we want our kids to have a good life and not, not feel afraid of things. And I think that-

• 32:19Speaker 01

  And now I've gotten over that fear because like our kids are just happy and they they are proving that acceptance is truth and acceptance is the way forward.

• 32:30Alex Cooper?

  I, the Catholic Church, I agree. There's like, there is growing up when you're so young and you're watching something and you're hearing something. Like, I remember like hearing about sex as I'm sitting in those pews being like, okay, so I'll basically die if I do this before marriage. Got it. Like, whoa. And then like after I did it, I was like, am I gonna die? I'm alive. Whoa. This is great. Yeah, God. Um, can we talk about, you guys both kind of talked about it earlier, but you both talked about like using alcohol to cope in ways. When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me?

• 33:25Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Daddy gang, let's get real, okay? We like to make our own rules. Southern New Hampshire University gets it. They let you learn what you want with over 200 career-focused programs, where you want with 100% online courses, and how you want with no set class times. Basically, you get to call the shots from day one. Visit s n h u dot edu slash call her daddy to learn more. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by SoFi, the everything app for smarter money. If your money is scattered across five different apps you never open, you're not in control. Your money should move you forward. With SoFi,

• 34:07Alex Cooper?

  you get award-winning banking, investing, borrowing, and more, all-in-one app. So you finally know where your money is. Make your first move with SoFi Checking and Savings, competitive APY, no account fees, a bonus when you join with eligible direct deposit. Terms apply. SoFi Bank, N A member FDIC. When you're ready to invest or pay off that debt, everything you need is right there. As a SoFi member, you get access to SoFi Wealth's world-class financial planners to help you know what to do next. Get started today at sofi.com/callherdaddy. SoFi, get your money right. This is a paid advertisement by SoFi Technologies and is not intended to be financial advice. You both talked about like using alcohol to cope in ways.

• 34:51Alex Cooper?

  When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me?

• 34:59Speaker 02

  I always had that thing in me that it was never enough. Never am I, I remember seeing people leave a beer, a half beer or a half glass of wine and like, what is wrong with that? Like, how is that, how is that humanly possible? And then I just, you know, they say about, it's not how much you drink, it's like how you drink. Like, I just had a situation where every time I drank, which was all, every night, my whole life fell apart. Like, I would, I remember just sitting in my dorm room, just waiting for someone to call to return my keys, my wallet, my, just every day, it was like, it was how I drank. Like, I noticed that my friends didn't, their lives didn't fall apart, they didn't do crazy things, they didn't lose everything.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  It was a way of being around alcohol that I knew in the back of my mind, this isn't right.

• 35:47Alex Cooper?

  Abby, what was the moment for you that you knew you needed to get sober?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Well, I had many.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Being a professional athlete, I had a, I had like a kind of a secret, personal life that not many people knew about, and this was totally a part of it.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  And I think being an athlete too, I just took on that persona that I just, I, I went hard all the time in every aspect of my life, except school.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  I was the athlete, I went to parties, that's what I did, I went to college, and then I became a soccer player and started playing on the national team. And so then I started to like, create these time periods where I could do it, like my times off. So I would never really drink in, in, in camp, but when I'd have the weekend off or a week off, I would, I would rage for five, five of those seven days. And throughout a whole career of doing this, 15, 20 years, it starts to take its toll. Uh, and then I started getting more injured, getting older, starting to use prescription meds, those get kind of out of control.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I'm leaning towards my retirement from sport, and then I get the, a DUI. And that was the most important thing that ever happened to me.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  I get a DUI. My mugshot is on the ESPN ticker for like seven straight days. And it was like the thing that like woke me up. And I was like, whoa, my life is way worse because of alcohol. And for a lot of my life, it was what I I was telling myself, it was way better. I'm having all this fun and doing all this fun things and hanging out with all these amazing people. And I have not had a drink since that night I got arrested. And it's one of the things I've been sober for almost for nine years now. I just hit nine years.

• 37:50Alex Cooper?

  Congratulations.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Everything really powerfully good in my life has happened in my sobriety. And I won gold medals as a high functioning alcoholic. And a lot of professional athletes struggle with this stuff and they don't do it publicly. And I get that.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  And there's more support for and mental health support for for pro athletes now than there was when I was going through. But I was just, you know, I was just really kind of suffering, not knowing if I was doing life right. Like there was that like, I didn't know. I thought that that was like, that was the only way. And and I didn't literally know a single sober person until I met Glennon. Like, I didn't know a single person that was sober in my life until I met her. And now I think, wow, I'm so proud that our kids will never ever see me intoxicated. I'm so proud that I have built a life that feels not boring.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  My biggest concern was like, it's gonna be so boring. What the fuck am I gonna do? And the truth is, when you have three children, there is a lot to do all the time, every day.

• 39:00Alex Cooper?

  I figured.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  And so, and then we're both full time working people. And so there's a lot that I wouldn't be able to have the life that I have now had it not been for me getting sober. I wouldn't, I would have probably missed Glennon. This whole thing would never, you know, so it's like, when I look back, it's like my life just got exponentially better.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Being sober.

• 39:23Alex Cooper?

  I think that's also really helpful to hear when you say like, you didn't know anyone that was sober. I think there's a lot of people that. Probably are having the same exact experience as you in terms of struggling with alcohol, but like that fun factor, they genuinely believe life won't be fun. And am I going to be like the odd man out where people are going to look at me and I'm the only one that doesn't drink? And I feel like, yes, that is fair to think, but once you start living it, like you're testament to be like, wait, you guys, it's literally great. Like, I'm totally, and of course, it's hard. It doesn't mean it's not hard when you're going through this, but the social element,

• 40:05Alex Cooper?

  I also think people are way more loving and, and giving in moments where we think we're going to get judged. Also, depending on who you're hanging out with, there can be assholes that are pressuring you, but for the most part, if you're around people that are good people, people just want the best for you. People are going to meet you where you're at if you're around the right people.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  And I'll just say this, like, first of all, you spend so much less money.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  I couldn't believe how much a dinner was without alcohol. It was insane. I was like, this is great. Big bonus. And then I think too, like, just go home a little bit earlier. Like, once your friends start to get louder and, and they repeat their first story, that's your Irish goodbye moment. Like, bye bye, get out of there. They'll never remember and they'll be like, where's so and so? Oh, whatever. And then repeat that story that they had just repeated to you that made you want to walk out.

• 41:05Alex Cooper?

  So real.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  They won't care. They won't care.

• 41:08Alex Cooper?

  Um, do you feel like your, any of your teammates were kind of catching on? Cause I know that there's a big secrecy element, but it only can last for so long. Like, how do you think it impacted your relationships?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely know that my teammates were worried about me. One of them got the phone call that I got arrested from a friend and, or a text, did you hear about Abby? And they thought that I died.

• 41:34Alex Cooper?

  Oh, I didn't know.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they, that was their first thought that Abby got in an accident or something happened. She's dead.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  And I wasn't far off. Like, I wasn't far off from that happening. It's actually super, I'm, I feel very lucky that I'm still here.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  I think that they all, and this is the problem of being a veteran and being the person that I was, is I was kind of a senior captain.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  I think that there was this element of Abby's gonna be fine, she'll take care of it.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  And yeah, like it has, it definitely has changed a lot of my relationships and friendships from that time. I had to create a whole different life for myself. I had to, I had to to save my life. I had to leave a lot of that behind. But it's really awesome that when I get to reconnect with some of my teammates who I'll be friends with for life, they get to see this different, more grounded, present, not always thinking about, what are we gonna, like, how are we gonna, what are we gonna do? Like, let's go, let's party. Like, I was like, that person that they kind of knew. And they have to kind of get more acquainted with the new me, which is a little bit more quiet, a little bit more subdued. I still like to tell a good story.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  In fact, one of my former teammates, we got together, it was one of our fortieth, one of our former teammates 40th birthday. And we were at dinner and she just looked at me and she's like, I like this version of you. And it meant so much to me. Like, I kind of got emotional at the table because like, that's a fear. Like, when you change your life so dramatically, you, you change your relationships because of it. If you change yourself so dramatically, your relationships shift. Of course they do. And you wonder, like, will they like me as this person? And so it was nice to get that affirmation from her. And at the end of the day, like, we've built a life as a family together that,

• 43:39Speaker 01

  you know, if you were to have children one day, like, your family and your kids become your, your source of everything. And so, yes, your friends and their opinions of you, like, it matters on some level, but like, also, like, the things that matter the most is like, what am I, what does my wife think? Like, am I doing, am I doing okay? Think I'm, am I doing okay?

• 44:01Alex Cooper?

  You're doing great, sweetie. No, in speaking about your wife, can we talk about how the two of you met? Because when I was doing my research, I was like, wait, this is like a fucking epic story, you guys. No, this is like, It's hot and cute and I am obsessed. Okay, so you release a book, Ms. Glennon, you release a book and this book is about your husband at the time, he had cheated and you write about finding out he cheated and you're you're gonna stay.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:35Alex Cooper?

  And you go to a book event. Tell me the story. What happens?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so I am, I have, I've just gotten sober. I'm also releasing my, my first book, my memoir. And this is a librarian's convention event. And essentially what happens, and people might not know this, I did not know this. Librarians come together in a convention every year and then, then authors come up and kind of pitch their books and to sell their books to all the libraries of the United States. And so that's what this event was. So I walk in and I'm a little bit late, which never happens. And so I'm like a little bit flustered. And I walk into the back room of this convention where the rest of the, the librarians or the authors were, were eating dinner.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  And I walk into this room and on the way to the event, I should say, I checked out who the other offer, authors were gonna be. So I could like know their names and, you know, and I saw Glennon. And I knew nothing about Glennon and I just read her like little blurb and it was like sober. You know, mother of three, the book was about the, the redemption of her marriage through infidelity, etc. And I was like, oh, perfect. Like she's sober. Maybe she'll know how, how to do sobriety.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  No pressure.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  I've never met a sober person, literally. And so I walk in this room. And all of a sudden I look up and Glennon is standing, everybody else is sitting. She is stand, got to her feet and stretched her arms like this. She's all the way across the room and I'm like, okay, well, that's, that's Glennon, the one I want to meet. This is great. Like she knows me. She thinks I'm cool. So we'll get to have a conversation. But I like, she's around the table.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  And it was weird. It was weird. Everyone was like, why is she standing up? Like it was really weird.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a bizarre.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Well, then I.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  And then, yeah.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  I didn't know what to do because now I'm stuck up here and I.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  So let me, let me demonstrate.

• 46:38Alex Cooper?

  You're standing here to hug her?

• 46:41Speaker 02

  We're at a long table full of authors and I stood up like this.

• 46:45Alex Cooper?

  Like, like.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  And then she's awkward and she goes.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  I thought maybe if I bow, people will think I just bow when people walk in rooms. I lost control of my body.

• 46:53Alex Cooper?

  Glennon, Glennon, wait, Abby, she's basically standing up like, like the fucking Lion King. And then she's bowing. What are you thinking? And what are you thinking in this moment? And what are you doing?

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was.

• 47:08Alex Cooper?

  What?

• 47:08Speaker 02

  It was something. I think it was one of the weirdest moments of my life, but I think it was a moment where it was in my body. Like, I really do. I've thought of this a million different ways because it's so weird. And there was a lot of writers at the table who still talk about it and try to get me to explain what happened. I didn't know Abby. Of course, I did not follow the soccer. I did not. But she walked in the room and I was like, holy shit. Like, something just took over my body. And I called it at the moment, love at first sight, but I don't think that's what it was. I think it was desire. And I think for somebody who lives in their head, I had never, I just had relationships with people who I thought made sense to have

• 47:53Speaker 02

  relationships with. Like, that seems like a good, like, I just never felt it in my body. And so it was, the, the best way I can explain it, it was that it was just a moment where my body was like, there she is. You better get your ass up. This is an important moment.

• 48:08Alex Cooper?

  In your body was at all romantic way?

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Like, I just never was like a very sexual being because I just felt like, I used to think of sex as something you do, like, like you, how you have to get the oil changed. Just, you just do it so the car doesn't break down and people don't start to say, why aren't you having sex with me? And like, you just have to do it to like, keep things running smoothly. I know. So I didn't before that moment even know what it felt like to be like sexually alive. So I think it was a moment, my first moment of sexual aliveness, although I would not have had a librarian's.

• 48:46Alex Cooper?

  I know. I'm like, damn, Glennon, you're like, I'm getting turned on.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  It was an inconvenient time.

• 48:53Alex Cooper?

  The fuck is she doing?

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've never kissed a girl. I'd never had a relationship with a woman or kissed a, I'd never, you didn't know any sober people. I didn't know any gay people. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah, basically. Yeah, I was a Christian. I was a Sunday school teacher.

• 49:06Alex Cooper?

  And it was so interesting because this moment happens.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  And I have to go over to hug her because she's standing makes it so awkward.

• 49:14Alex Cooper?

  Now she's bowing.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Okay. So we I hug and then I have to go sit in my seat, which is like around the table, not next to her. And I'm just like, there's something happening. That I can't fully explain because I'm I keep looking at her and I'm like, huh. Like, that's something is happening here. And then we get seated next to each other on the dais. On the on the platform. What is it called?

• 49:41Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  The dais, yeah. And the woman who was working for me at the time, I I have to sign some autographs after the event. She unbeknownst to me, because the whole time when Glennon got up to speak, I was like, I can speak in front of a crowd of people, no problem. And I was like, fumbling my words. I was like nervous. I was like, oh, my gosh, get me out of here. And Glennon gets up and she speaks and she's like so eloquent and perfect. Ah, and I was just like, looking at her like the whole time. And and so after the event, I'm like, meeting with with some booksellers and my my assistant at the time went up to Glennon and said, I don't know why I'm saying this.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  And I don't know what is going on, but Abby needs you in her life.

• 50:28Alex Cooper?

  I was like, got it. I'm in.

• 50:32Alex Cooper?

  I am not hard to get.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Like, I have been sexually awoken. Put me in.

• 50:38Alex Cooper?

  First of all, did you feel at all, like, at this point, she's married to a man? Are you like, wondering at all, like, it could this even be like, would she even be interested? Or are you not even thinking romantic yet?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  I am curious.

• 50:53Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Okay. And as a a lesbian woman who grew up in the 90s, 80s and 90s, where a lot of the people that I have been with in my life were previously straight. And then went back to being straight. It's just the way it goes for some of us. I was, I was side eyeing her around like, what's going on here? Something was happening. I felt it. And so then I went back into my hotel room that night and I read her book. And I got to the end of that fucking book and I was like, you fucking stay together? That can't be. I was like, heartbroken.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  I was like, oh, and I, by the way, I'm the slowest reader in the whole world. I read from like 10pm till 3am to try to figure out what was gonna happen with this. And I was like devastated. I was like, oh my gosh. And then a few days later, she emails me. What does this email say? Give me the gist.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so I think, so on, on the dais, Abby had told me that her, her people wanted her to write her memoir as like a Captain America story, like shiny, no problems. Here I'm Abby Wambach.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  I hadn't finished it yet and I was, yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  And then she said, but I feel like maybe I want to tell the real truth.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  About the DUI and the drinking and the prescription drugs. Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  And she was so upset. Like she, she felt like her drinking was like this big, dark secret that no one could know. But she's from like shiny sports world and I'm a writer and an artist. I'm like,

• 52:40Speaker 02

  so what? Everyone is an alcoholic. You know, like, that's not, and I remember, I said, you're, you're leaving that world and you're entering the real world. And in the real world, we like real people. So of course you, you show people who you are.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  And great advice, by the way.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  So the email that I sent, I think I was like pretending that I just would be your like, Spiritual guide. I was just like, you need some help? Like, hey, I'm the one you met from the library. Although I do remember that when we reread the first sentence of the email, it said, I don't know much about you. I do know a little bit about men's soccer because my husband is a fan, but I do feel like I'm over men in general. So that was not hiding. That was not subtle.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  God.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Right?

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Remember how much I just like scoured all of those emails?

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Looking for clues, for clues.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  What is she trying to say here?

• 53:40Alex Cooper?

  Wait, you say you're over men as you're like married to this man? Abby's like, huh.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 53:45Alex Cooper?

  Interesting. So when throughout this email process, do you think each of you recognize this is turning romantic?

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Good question. Well, it's weird because at the time she was going on her book, she was about to go on like this, the whole giant book tour. Oprah just picked it for a book club pick as like the marriage redemption story.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  That's how it was being sold all over the place.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  And I guess we, we went from email to like started texting and honestly, like instantly when we started texting, then we had like a phone call. And I think this like honestly, and this is the God's honest truth, the second we felt like that we communicated that there were real feelings happening, she said, I gotta talk to Craig. We, this, I can't do this.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Well, first I went to a therapist, my therapist, I sat down with my therapist and told her the whole thing. I said, I think I'm in love with this woman. I, I, she had been with me through the marriage. I said, I cannot, I cannot have sex with my husband again. Like I, something about my body, like we hadn't even been in the same room together besides that, but I just couldn't do it. And she said, I understand what you're saying about not being able to have sex with him anymore. Have you considered just do, giving blowjobs? Because many women find that to be less intimate. My therapist said that to me and Alex. That was the moment. I was like, as God is my witness, I will never

• 55:19Speaker 02

  give a blowjob.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  I don't know much, but I freaking know that much. And so it was something about that woman looking at me and saying, squash this, it's not real, just give blowjobs the rest of your life. Where I was like, oh, no, thank you. No, no, no.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  But then, right after that, you were like, I have to talk to Craig.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:43Alex Cooper?

  Okay, yes. What did you say?

• 55:45Speaker 02

  I just said, I mean, we had been through so much and this man is an amazing father. And we married each other because it was the right thing to do, not because we were right for each other. And we both knew that. And in retrospect, when I think about how we got married, I really railroaded it. Like, I was scared, I was freshly sober, I was pregnant and I thought, we gotta do this. Like, we need to become a family. And I ignored every terrified look in his eyes. Like, I can, we weren't ready. But he did the best he could. And I, and there was infidelity and it was messy. But I just remember thinking, I don't owe this man the rest of my life, but I do owe him the truth about now.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  So I just said, I am in love with a woman. And there was a lot of silence. And then a week later, we told the kids. And we had not even tested, we had not been together, except for that one night, we blew it all up.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Just talking.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Just.

• 56:46Alex Cooper?

  Like, you had never even kissed, you had never. Okay, hold on.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  You blew up her whole life.

• 56:51Alex Cooper?

  Did that freak you out a little?

• 56:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:52Alex Cooper?

  No.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:54Alex Cooper?

  You're like, let's go.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  You were waiting for a girl, a straight girl, to blow up her whole life and choose you.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  I was.

• 56:58Alex Cooper?

  And not go back.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yes, I was waiting for it. But like, here's the thing.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Everything about this story, a sane person would be like, this is, this is not correct. You should probably slow down, this is, you should do this a different way. And I totally get that, but there was everything in my total body and knowing. And I think it was true for you, Glenn, and too, that it was like, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is the person that I'm supposed to build a life with.

• 57:30Alex Cooper?

  How did your family react to you being like, I'm with a woman now?

• 57:34Speaker 02

  So I remember texting my sister, who was my person, my, we are inseparable, from a dressing room at the mall.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  And I just said, I am in love with Abby Wambach.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  It just kept dropping sentences.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Funny text.

• 57:52Alex Cooper?

  It's so good.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  It's just like hard to, there's no lead in that's gonna make it better. So just. And then.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  She's like, yeah, we all are.

• 58:00Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, we all are.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Join the club. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

• 58:04Alex Cooper?

  No, but like if I got that text, I'd be like, oh yeah, like you're getting into soccer.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:08Alex Cooper?

  Cool. Like it's about time. Like, like, no.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Finally. Yeah. And I said, I'm in love with Abby Wambach and I will never be able to be with her and I am brokenhearted. And she wrote back and it was like, you know, when you're like staring at the dots, like what is coming? And she said, well, you have spent too much of your life brokenhearted.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  And it was just like, her immediate way of saying, all right, let's go. No, we're not gonna land on just brokenhearted. Like let's, that's hard. Let's choose the other hard. Um, so she was just, there was a lot to work through, but she was just immediately like, let's do this.

• 58:49Alex Cooper?

  Can you share with me, once you guys got into this relationship, everyone brings a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you having gotten cheated on, how did that impact your guys' relationship with, okay, I, I hit the mother load. You're like, okay, how did it impact your guys' relationship with trust?

• 59:28Alex Cooper?

  This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. I always think it is so important to find time to take care of myself because I think self-care for me, a lot of times is getting some alone time, even if it's just go on a 10-minute walk outside. Self-care can obviously look different at different stages of life and the ways that we practice it often evolve over time. But one possible way to take care of yourself is through therapy. Therapy with BetterHelp, one of the leading online therapy platforms, can be a space to prioritize your mental health, reflect on where you are. And check in with yourself. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp has served millions of people globally. BetterHelp makes it easier to fit therapy into your routine with

• 1:00:09Alex Cooper?

  flexible ways to connect that work for different schedules and lifestyles. Plus, BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1,000 hours of hands-on experience, and they hold required education, training, and certifications. You can meet with a range of professionals from marriage and family therapists to social workers, counselors, you name it, they have it. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's better H E L P dot com slash daddy. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Stouffer's. Let me tell you something. When I am hungry and I am trying to figure out what to eat, sometimes you can just actually become so, you're angry.

• 1:00:50Alex Cooper?

  You're like, I am busy, I'm hungry, I'm getting hangry, I'm getting angry, what can I eat? I need something hot and delicious and low maintenance. Well, introducing Stouffer's dinners are not only delicious, they're done in a flash. Serve up their classic lasagna, chicken pesto, or carbonara for two. Whatever you're craving, Stouffer's is your hot, delicious, easy meal fantasy. When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's. You can see all the delicious options at Stouffer's dot com. Everyone brings a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you having gotten cheated on. How did it impact your guys' relationship with trust?

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  So I have never been in a relationship that I wasn't cheated on. Okay? Every single one of them, all of them. And I never know. I never know until I know. So I went into this relationship having part of myself know that it was gonna happen again. And I, I don't think I would have been able to explain this at the time, but I think I felt like, okay, well, I can't control whether it's gonna happen, but I can control whether I'm just totally annihilated by it. Like, I can control whether I'm surprised by it. I don't, I just won't be surprised by it. Cause that's the part I can't handle. So, a lot of things happened, but one day, Abby was in the shower and she got out too fast, like faster than her normal shower.

• 1:02:12Alex Cooper?

  She got out too fast?

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was completely her fault. And she opened our door and I was on her phone, in bed, on her phone, looking through her phone.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  And...

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  It's so funny. I really, I really like having the moral high ground. I don't, I don't know what to do in that exact sort of situation. I wanted to die and we just both stared at each other for a second. And then she says,

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  she says, oh, honey, what else do you need? Do you, do you need my email passwords? Like what, what else do you need to feel safe?

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  I've also been cheated on. And so like, it was this moment that I was like, huh? Okay, this is not about me. I know what I'm doing and I'm not doing anything weird. I'm like this, the most boring person in the whole wide world.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  I can confirm that based on my, my.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  You're like, what the hell? Shit's boring.

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Come on. And I think like, I don't know. I just think that it's really in that moment. It's really, she's trying to soothe something, a fear that's happening. And I recognized that immediately. And of course you have that fear. I can't be mad at you for, for being scared.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was really scared.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  That's something that has happened in your life. And one of the vows that we have made, especially since we've gotten married, because we did actually make vows, is like, we don't want to use each other's weaknesses against each other. Like that's, that's something that is a tender spot. And it's a tender spot to me too. So like, when these things kind of come up, we can't use it against each other. Cause like, I could have, and I know I, I've not been like this in my life. This is probably sobriety really helping me be like, what the fuck? Like when you're not sober. You're keeping secrets. Like, they might not be cheating secrets, but you're keeping secrets. Like, that's how you stay alcoholic. Like, it's the secrets that take you down.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  So, in my sobriety, I was just like, yeah, like, what do you want? You want my email passwords?

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Luckily, I can never remember passwords, so that wouldn't have helped me. And I didn't need all of that. It was just that moment of like, such kindness and such, I think it got just better after that, did it?

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Have you been looking at my phone?

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  Not since Tuesday.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  But now, but now we have every, each other's passwords to everything. Like, like, I can open her computer with my fingerprint, like, the whole thing.

• 1:05:01Alex Cooper?

  I also love what you guys talked about with the phone and the trust thing, because I have had so many people come on, and it hasn't been the reaction that you've given, Abby, which I can imagine there is a level of anger for sure, someone has, where it's like, you don't trust me, why are you going through my stuff? But to be met with such grace and love, that makes now sense, why Glenn. And then you're like, oh, and then I never need to do it again. Because when they also blow up, it does give you even more pause as the person looking through, being like, well, what are you freaking out about? And what is there to hide? Not that there's always something to hide, but that moment, I do think is a defining moment for a lot of relationships, based off of, here, have everything.

• 1:05:43Alex Cooper?

  Not that you need to give them everything, but it's a nice gesture to be like, I have not, I, go on my Candy Crush account. Like, there is literally nothing on my phone that I feel like I need to hide.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Well, you have to think about it, because like, there's, there's the defensiveness that shows up, right? And what is underneath the defensiveness? It's like, okay, they don't trust me. That, then that's like the next level. And then you have to go deeper than that. It's like, why don't they trust me? And then it has literally probably nothing to do with you.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  So, it's like, if you can do that equation and process that really quickly, look, I have, I have been the one that's like, what, you don't trust me? And I'm defensive, and I, and I'm like, standing in the trust part of it. It's like, actually go one step deeper. And honesty, like, being honest with yourself. Because if you have, if you have untrustworthy behavior, that would kind of propel somebody, or, or, or make them want to look through your stuff in a way, to like, figure out where you are, or like, find my, whatever. Like, of course, that, that, you will...

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just important to do that process and to realize it's not necessarily a lot of stuff in relationship isn't about you.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  No, I was thinking I can't trust myself to make a good decision. That's what I thought, right? That's all the research and whatever, like I cannot trust myself to know if something's going on.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  I think I do trust that now. I think that is like what what getting back in your body is about too. It's like starting to pay attention and not gaslight yourself.

• 1:07:18Alex Cooper?

  It's a great point because I think a lot of people listening and specifically women like we're always kind of taught to question ourselves like we're not supposed to be confident and know what we want. It's like question yourself and don't be so confident and you talking about being in your body and how your life is changing by starting to be more like cognizant of like where you are and who you are in your relationships like again, then having a beautiful relationship that you guys are building together. It makes it easier, but it still is going to show up. And then it's about how you guys handle those moments that then if anything, they get you even closer.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Alex Cooper?

  Like that moment, like you just said, we've never had something like that except for last Tuesday. I'm just kidding. You're like Tuesday, um, but those moments make it so much easier to be light and free and in your body when you feel that safe. You're like, oh, I don't even care about your email. Don't give me the password. I'm too busy.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:07Alex Cooper?

  Um, can we talk about intimacy? Because I think a lot of people, when they think about relationships and kind of like how you described it, Glennon. Sex for you, you were just like, oh, I thought it was something you did. Oil change, boom, bye, we're done. And I think a lot of people think about sex and intimacy is like the, the way to equate how good our relationship is, is how much we're having sex. Like if someone is craving more intimacy in their relationship currently, like what advice do you have for them listening and watching?

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  I guess just even saying that is a good start.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that something that works for us is to like know what makes each other feel like that that intimacy connection is there because we've been together for 10 years ish.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  Is that right?

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Almost, yeah, we're almost like we're in our ninth year.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Um, and we've gone through ups and downs of, of not just like the actual act of like sex, but like, we've gone through ups and downs of feeling really connected and so in line and so on the same page. And then, you know, stuff happens, people die, diagnoses happen, and it, it forces you kind of away from like this homeostasis line in a way. And it's not my dream to be living at the high, high, high of the in-lovness, because I don't think that that, number one, chemically is just not sustainable. Like, you, that happens for the first couple of years, and you're just like infatuated with each other, and you

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  can't keep your hands off each other. But then you fall into a sense of loving, of complete partnership and intimacy. And, and you're kind of like here, like we, you know what I mean?

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that was so scary for me, remember?

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  I was terrified because she had never been in love before. And I had been in love before. And so I know that when you fall off that love train, you're like, I want to go back there. And so you find somebody new. And then, so that's what I did my whole life. I just wanted the love, the love chemicals, the love chemicals.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  Same as, it's like same as the success.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Striving for success.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  It's the same, it's the whole conversation. It's same as booze.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  It's the same as the falling in love part. They're all like these fake versions of the thing.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  But they're easier to access because they give you the adrenaline.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  And then there's like these real versions of the thing, right? That are harder. It's like you're sitting around with your friends, and you're like, is this boring? Or you're like, with your wife on the couch, year seven, and you're like, is this boring? Because the drugs are gone.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  But, I mean, I remember you saying, you telling me that it was going to change. Like, when we were in the obsessive, just obliteration of early love, and you saying, this is going to end. And I said to you, I feel like you're saying we're not going to love each other as much. And you said, I'm telling you, we're going to have to love each other more. Because the drug of it is gone and then you land, it's like the falling in love and then you land and you're like two people again and you're like, what?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  We're just two people?

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  So I think that's intimacy. The falling in love is not intimacy.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  It's the easiest part.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  Like that can happen to any fool, right?

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  Fool, the fool in love, that's just something that happens to you, but then you have to happen

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  to each other, which I think that's intimacy. It's like, it's not a we thing. It's like, here I am and you're like, here I am. And then the more intimate you can be with yourself, I think it's our therapy, it's our work we do individually.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  That makes us able to connect deeply as two people.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, it's like when, when you're falling in love, you're trying to enmesh, you're trying to become one, you are one. You believe that you are the ones that, that have it.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Remember we used to walk around and be like, look at all these normal people?

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  And that have it forever, right? It's only you and this other person. It's me and Glennon and nobody else knows what we're talking about.

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  We were insufferable.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  But then, when you start landing in love, you become two individuals again that hopefully are along the exact same path. And, you know, like, things happen where the path goes a little bit further away from that center line, but you, our goals in our life, at least mine, is to get as close to that center line as possible so that we're like, you're, you see this? This is crazy. This is amazing. Like, okay, cool, cool. And we're, we're headed in the right direction. And the work that we do, the therapy and the, even our podcast is like a therapeutic thing, because we have to like, do a lot of research and thinking and feeling and talking about really hard things. And it's such an important, like,

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  avenue for us to not only be intimate with each other, but to explore our own intimacy with ourself and that, that, that deep desire for the two of us that we both have to want to know ourselves more. And then we get to have like beginners mind with each other. We get to be new people every day and it's so fun and also exhausting at times, but fun for the most part.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  I can tell you two, it's just.

• 1:13:26Alex Cooper?

  You're talking so much like the you're like, oh, wait, remember the other night that we were up late talk like, I think that it every time you hear people give advice like communicate. It's like, uh, shut up. But it actually, when you start to really dissect, what does communicating in a relationship look like? It is literally after the in love portion, you come down and it's reality. Are we compatible in what we want in life? And so many people, there's usually one person in the relationship that's kind of vying for the other person's attention and be like, do you like this? And then the person's like, no, I don't know. And then like, okay. And then they kind of mold to that person because the person that cares least in the relationship has all the power.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:14:05Alex Cooper?

  And so you're caught, it's like this uneven thing that when all of a sudden you find that person that feels like you're genuine equal.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:13Alex Cooper?

  And you are compatible. Doesn't mean you're not going to disagree on things, but it's just this like one step forward each time and you're in lockstep. And there's nothing more beautiful than having a partner like that. But it's rare to find. I feel like you can both now, like you've having been in previous relationships, me too, it's so rare to find. And that's why I want for all the women listening, like, if you're not sure, if you don't have that feeling, it's probably that's your answer. It's not there. Because like what you guys are describing, yes, maybe you're not going to meet someone that stands up and gravitates in the air towards you. But that feeling of like, no, I want to do the hard work with this person. That I feel like if it's missing, if it's

• 1:14:56Alex Cooper?

  not there, you kind of know it's not the right person because it when it's right, you fucking know it's so right.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  And I think you know it's right because of how you feel. Like, it's not even when sometimes, you know, that that moment of there she is, looking at Abby, like for so long, I thought that was about Abby. But I think that there she is was internal. Like, I loved who I was in that moment. Like, she brought something out of me, but I was in my body. I was weird. I was arms open. I'm like, not making sense. I'm that I like who I am with Abby. I sometimes feel like the way that you know, if if a person's compatible with for you is how you feel about you when you're with that person. It's not necessarily that person, because so much of love, the way we've been taught.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Especially for women is like, we have to disappear or get small or mirror or become whatever that person wants us to be. So we don't even know who we are. So like, there's a version of love that doesn't make you disappear, but makes you expand.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Up here.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  Up here.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  In a way that's what you get and you fall in love with is like

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  So true.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  This version of me that I get to be on the earth because this person allows me to be

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  That space.

• 1:16:11Alex Cooper?

  No, and like everyone watching this right now, because I have so many people that write in every day and they're like, is this the right person? If that's it, how do you feel when you're with this person? And if you don't feel like your best version of yourself, you probably have the answer. Okay, we, I want to play a quick game.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Yay.

• 1:16:27Alex Cooper?

  Because now that you've said that you're getting to like 10 years.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Alex Cooper?

  Um, we need to play a little, who's more likely to?

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:16:34Alex Cooper?

  Who is more likely to start a deep, personal, intimate, emotional conversation at 11:00 PM at night?

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  We've never been awake at 11:00.

• 1:16:43Alex Cooper?

  No, no.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Alex Cooper?

  Okay, late night.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  7:00 PM.

• 1:16:45Alex Cooper?

  7:00 PM.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  So 8 o'clock PM would be very, very late.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Make it realistic, Alex.

• 1:16:50Alex Cooper?

  7:00 PM.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  That's a bonus of being sober. You go to sleep early.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  Who do you think? This is a tough one for us.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  I think it would be me. I think it would be me.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  You, I do too. Yeah.

• 1:16:57Alex Cooper?

  Thank you.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Because at 6:00 PM, she starts to power down.

• 1:17:00Alex Cooper?

  And there, and you're like, honey, one thought I had, she's like, go to bed, go to bed. Okay. Who's more likely to send a steamy text during a work meeting?

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  That's so good.

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  I feel sad. I never send you steamy texts.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it would be me for sure.

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  I'm so sorry. It's you. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it tomorrow.

• 1:17:20Alex Cooper?

  Do it tomorrow?

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Oh my God, this is so fun. Thank you, Alex.

• 1:17:23Alex Cooper?

  This is so good. Okay. Who's more likely to get a spontaneous tattoo?

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Her.

• 1:17:29Alex Cooper?

  Really?

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love a tattoo.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Believe it or not, I don't have a single one.

• 1:17:33Alex Cooper?

  You don't?

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  No, and it's only because I was terrified as a child and we were told that if you got a tattoo, you would be kicked out. That still lives in me. And I think the day after I would want something different. So fair.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  That's what it's for. It's for regret. Regret is fun. Regret is proof you did something wild at some point. Like you were wild and crazy. It's

• 1:17:53Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, those are the years. Your spontaneous texts, honey. Okay. Who's more likely to get too competitive at board games?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Me.

• 1:18:01Alex Cooper?

  I knew that one. Who's more likely to suggest skinny dipping on vacation?

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Ooh, for sure it would be me.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:08Alex Cooper?

  Who's more likely to turn a small moment into a metaphor for life?

• 1:18:13Speaker 02

  That's my jam, Alex.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Talks in metaphors.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  I only understand metaphors.

• 1:18:18Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God. Wait, can you think of one that you've been like saying recently?

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  Well, right now, I'm thinking this really feels like a bubble of love and I was gonna talk to you about it in the car, but I'm glad we got to bring it up now. It does.

• 1:18:29Alex Cooper?

  Wait, tell me, what are you thinking?

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  It just feels really good in here. Like, you are wonderful and this conversation has been great and I don't know, it just feels really-

• 1:18:37Alex Cooper?

  It's good vibes.

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  A bubble of love.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Bubble of love.

• 1:18:40Alex Cooper?

  I love this bubble of love. Okay, love. Who's more likely to get on stage at karaoke?

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  Well, we have a story around this.

• 1:18:48Alex Cooper?

  Oh, no.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  My wife is.

• 1:18:50Alex Cooper?

  Look at your face, Glenn.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  We do, um, we do Girls Just Want a Weekend. It's a weekend that Brandy Carlisle puts on a music festival weekend. And because we're friends with Brandy, she allows Glennon to go on stage and perform a song.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  I performed Cher, "If I Could Turn Back Time," very seriously, Alex. I was not joking, okay? It was not a joke.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  It was not a joke.

• 1:19:17Speaker 02

  I wore a full wig and hat and fishnets and a G-string.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  My kids were, our kids were like, um, are you Sherma?

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  If I could turn back time.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  And she doesn't sing.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  She's not a singer and got in front of 5,000 people and performed the song, made me be a sailor.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  In my body, Alex, in my body.

• 1:19:38Alex Cooper?

  You were in your body.

• 1:19:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:39Alex Cooper?

  You were in that G-string.

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:41Alex Cooper?

  We, what were you thinking when she was on stage, Abby?

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Well, I went out there as like, I was like, um-

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  A sailor?

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Well, I was, she got me the sailor outfit because it's part of the music video that Cher put out.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  But nobody knows that, so it just looked like Abby was in a random sailor outfit.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  It was bizarre. But I was out there as like her comfort, like, support person. Cause she's gotta go do this thing. And we go out there and Brandy is also on stage singing back, back up to make sure that Glennon can get through the song. Well, instantly, we realize Glennon doesn't need any backup. She's crushing it. And now I'm just like loitering.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  I'm like, what am I doing up here? This is, I look ridiculous. Glennon is like all over the stage and sliding on her knees and the crowd is going wild. I was like, I was laughing with Brandy in the back of part of the stage. And then all of a sudden Glennon comes and jumps into my arms and I grab her. My hands are on her ass, total ass, fishnet ass. And she goes, take me off stage.

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  I got scared. I got scared like three minutes in, I went back in my body. I was like, oh, this isn't a good idea. And so I just said, get me out of here.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Get me out of here.

• 1:20:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. But it was the best.

• 1:20:55Alex Cooper?

  I'm so proud of you.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:20:57Alex Cooper?

  That takes confidence. And I can only imagine Abby, as you're saying, that'd be like, that's my wife.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  It was amazing. And she had a little bit of like a vulnerability hangover that night. And then we got to the airport the next morning, because that was the day we were leaving. And all of the concert goers were coming up to her like, you were amazing. That was the most, it was amazing.

• 1:21:18Alex Cooper?

  That's the best though, that you got that feedback? Because I get what you mean when you're laying there, you're like, wait, was I like being kind of cringe? Like, was it okay? Like, did I sound okay? And then everyone's like, babe, you crushed.

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Alex, I was in the fetal position in the bed, in the hotel, going, did I humiliate? Was that the best moment of my life or the worst moment of my life?

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  It was.

• 1:21:34Alex Cooper?

  So you had fun?

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  It was amazing.

• 1:21:36Alex Cooper?

  Okay, who's more likely to sleep past noon on a weekend?

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  I would sleep longer.

• 1:21:41Alex Cooper?

  Who's more likely to start a hobby and forget it two weeks later?

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Me.

• 1:21:44Alex Cooper?

  Okay, it's okay.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  But first to buy all the gear for it.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm a gear person.

• 1:21:49Alex Cooper?

  Oh, I'm the same way. Like, I will go and buy things and be like, I'm doing this. And then I'm like, oh. And then Matt loves to be like, remember when you said you were going to get into Pilates? And I bought you a Pilates machine and you've used it two times? And I'm like, please, this is enough. He's like, remember when you tried tennis? And I was like, shut up, okay? I'm going to get back to it at some point.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Alex Cooper?

  Um, who's more likely to suggest staying in instead of going out?

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Ooh, both of us.

• 1:22:12Alex Cooper?

  Okay, love that, same. Who's more likely to say, I have a new idea for a book slash podcast slash project?

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  That's all we say.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  That's all we talk about.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've had 12 ideas just during this conversation.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  I can't wait to go download. We're doing work.

• 1:22:30Alex Cooper?

  We're working today, ladies. We're putting in work. Okay, who's more likely to give the other unsolicited advice?

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Oh, I recently learned that unsolicited advice is criticism and I should stop. So I go to Ellen on now.

• 1:22:43Alex Cooper?

  I go to Alan on five times a week so I can stop giving advice. Do you feel the difference? Yes. Oh, that's good. Yep, for sure. I'll report back to my meeting. Yeah, no, it's great. You guys, I had the best time with you. I like, don't want this to end. I think something that is like my favorite part of my job is when I get to sit down with people that I obviously like see on social media or I'm a fan of, fan of. And then getting to actually speak to you guys, like we are in my living room and we're just talking about things that we clearly talk about in real life. It was such a pleasure to get to hang out with you guys because seeing your relationship up close and personal, it's so beautiful and inspiring.

• 1:23:23Alex Cooper?

  And I hope so many people take from this, like the work you both have done from childhood, all the things you guys have gone through to get to this point and then to make this beautiful marriage work. And it is work, but it's fun work and it's good work. Like, I just thank you guys for opening up to me today because I know we got, we got a little deep in moments, but it was, it was really fun and it was a pleasure. So, thank you. Love, Bubble. Love, Bubble. We love you. Thank you. I love you guys. You guys are the best.

• 1:24:05Alex Cooper?

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• 1:24:47Alex Cooper?

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• 1:25:32Alex Cooper?

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• 1:26:16Alex Cooper?

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