Alanis Morissette: Anger, Attachment, & Postpartum

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Alanis Morissette. Alanis reflects on starting her career at a young age and finding her voice in a male-dominated music industry. She opens up about pushing against the expectations placed on women, being labeled “too much,” and how the anger and honesty of her music made her a defining voice of the ’90s. Alanis also discusses navigating love and breaking patterns of codependency, her experience with postpartum depression, and the freedom and complete metamorphosis that comes with getting older. Enjoy!

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• 2:14Speaker 00

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Alanis Morissette, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  You are such an icon. Let me just gather myself. Let me just, hold on. I need to take a deep breath.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  So do I.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  All of my friends were like, no pressure. And I'm like, okay, well, now you're making me feel pressure. One of my friends specifically is the biggest fan. And she was like, I'll just come do the interview for you. And I was like, you need to-

• 2:44Speaker 02

  What are their questions?

• 2:45Speaker 00

  No, literally. She was like blowing me up. Shout out Meg, if you're watching this, I love you. I hope I do you justice. Okay, I need to give you your proper intro. At 21 years old, you shattered records selling 33 million copies of your album Jagged Little Pill, winning five Grammys, including Best Album. And since then, you really have continued to release music that I think gives people the permission to feel angry and messy and complicated. And I just love every single thing that you stand for. So thank you so much for giving me your time. It is such an honor.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  My gosh, thanks for saying that and mirroring me so generously.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  Of course, of course. Okay, your song, Ironic, will forever be one of my favorite songs to scream in the car with my girlfriends, as I'm sure it is millions of other people watching. But what does it mean to you that new generations continue to discover your music and to fall in love with you and what you stand for?

• 3:49Speaker 02

  First, when the record came out in 1995, it was a wild experience. And I saw quickly that people were using this music in a way that felt inspiring for me to stay in the public eye. As an introvert, I had ambiguity about all of it. And I saw that it was supporting people and uplifting people, or reminding people of who they were, or giving them permission to feel anything. And I thought, this is a good reason to stay here and keep going. For me, it was glimpsing inside way too much information. I can spend a few minutes writing a song and then get back out. So I'm much better now at 52 at going in pretty consistently. But songwriting was terrifying in that way, because it would come through and then-

• 4:33Speaker 00

  And then it's out for the entire world.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then it's not mine anymore. Then it's yours. Then I have nothing to do with it almost.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  You also just performed that song on stage with Olivia Rodrigo.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  I know mentoring young artists is something that you're so passionate about. How did you two first meet?

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Um, I don't even remember. I think we met at the Rolling Stone cover shoot together.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just, you know, there's nothing better than supporting young people in being who they are and not having to figure it out in their 80s.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  And especially, I think, like, as women in this industry, like, you have so much that you have learned and continue to learn. So I think that, like, anytime we can pass that down to future generations, it's such a blessing of like, oh, my God, because I'm sure you're like, oh, I wish I knew this. Here you go.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, or I wish I had someone, you know, I definitely had the, will you be my mommy? For a long time in the mid 90s, like, will there be some mentor, some group of women who kind of rush in and scoop me up? And the answer was a hard no. But, but now it's a hard yes. And I think consciousness has changed to the point where that which was really confusing or overwhelming, or weird, or woo woo, which that word is gone now. I just think now people are understanding what some of us were talking about the whole time. And it feels strange. I didn't expect it.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  Let's talk about the 90s. What do you miss most about that decade?

• 6:01Speaker 02

  I miss sitting around doing nothing.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  I feel like you were doing a lot.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yes, but also, you know, as an artist and as a, as someone who expresses oneself as a career, it's a lot of it, a lot of the writing is just sitting and letting the mind wander or listening, or you can call it channeling, we call it whatever the frick, but it's basically listening, heeding, and answering the call.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  The 90s, also, I feel like everyone talks about fashion.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  And the trends keep coming back. What is something that is in your closet that is from the 90s that you still put on today, or you still look at, and you're like, I still stand by that fashion decision?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  I have some, some Lanvin boots, and I have some Dries really early work. I keep a lot of it in archive. But the one thing I noticed about the 90s, and it kind of reinvigorating now, is that back in the 90s, we weren't like, cute and wearing cute, ill-fitting clothes to be cute. It just didn't fit. So also, if you're gonna chase the 90s, which seems to be really cool to do now, you gotta tweeze your eyebrows to tiny, if you mean it. If you don't mean it.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  But you really gotta lean in. Like, you had to commit to it, or it's not, you're not even gonna get close to it.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  We cannot talk about fashion also without talking about Sex and the City. You guest starred on Sex and the City, and you kissed the Carrie Bradshaw.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:34Speaker 00

  Were you a fan of the show before you went on?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Yes. And I reached out to them, and I said, might it be a nice time for Carrie to experience a lesbian moment? And they said, why, yes, we were thinking the same thing.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  Wait, you came up with the idea?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Well, I think we literally had the same idea at the same time. That happens.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  That is, that makes it even better.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  I, oh, wow.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  It was a win-win.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Well, and I also feel like, at the time, it wasn't very common to see a bisexual character written into television.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  And so what did it mean to you to be a part of a moment like that?

• 8:11Speaker 02

  It's amazing. Yeah, anything that opens up and pulls us out of the locked binary is a loving act, I think.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  Do you think you knew, though, at the time, like, how groundbreaking it would be when people saw that on TV?

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Was it groundbreaking?

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Kind of, I guess. You're like, I just went about with my dad, Alex. I do iconic shit.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  That was another Tuesday, Alex. I just drop mics and keep walking.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  No, you do.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Just joking.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  No, you do.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Sometimes.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  Um, I feel like when people talk about you, we're always talking about how you've broken barriers. And I think a great example of that is you created your own record label at 13 years old. Now, Alanis, I feel like I'm gonna speak for myself and also the collective when I say, I was not doing anything like that at 13 years old.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Probably best.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, no. So I need to understand, like, how did that even come to be at that young of an age?

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I started writing songs at nine, and I sent it to a friend of the family who's since passed away. And, and he heard it and created a track for it. So when I went to visit him, he, he had a track fully prepared. And I said, who's gonna sing this? My brothers have informed me repeatedly that I can't sing. And he's like, well, they're lying and get in there.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Leave it to a brother also to just humble you constantly.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Let's take you out. So I sang it, and then that was that. And then we went to shop a record deal. And back in those days, they weren't signing little children. Now they just go right up the vagina into the uterus and get the signature and come back out and wait, I guess. Has your child signed to a deal yet?

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. We got an agency set up. Can you imagine?

• 9:51Speaker 02

  So that was not happening then. And so I basically started a record company with my friend Lindsay, and we put it out on the record company at, I was 11. Yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  That takes a certain level of confidence. Like, were you always a young, confident child?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  I think my parent, there's so many stages of development, attachment, exploration, identity, competence. My parents knocked the confidence one out of the park. Definitely saying, you can do anything you want.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Oh, that's such a gift.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  That's a big one.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  I mean, that changed, that can change your life, obviously. Because I think a lot of times, people have to struggle with that their entire life and find a way to find confidence, because their home was the place they did not feel most confident. So to have that within your parents, were they at all nervous about you, though, getting into this industry?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Apparently not.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  And did they have any background in it themselves?

• 10:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  So they had no concept of the industry?

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Uh-uh.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  And they just were like, go for it, Alanis. You're gonna crush.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  It's really that simple, actually.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Did they have any idea for you prior to that of what they hoped you would become?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  No, I mean, my dad was a grammar guy and my mom, you know, my parents are, they have that go getter thing. It's in the DNA of the marrow of their bone.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  When you talk about your experience in the music industry, you've said you were put in a lot of male dominated spaces at a very young age. What did that even look like for you back in the day when it first started?

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Just a room full of, you know, 12 men in suits. And I just remember being really overwhelmed. Like, I didn't even know what the word publishing meant. I didn't know what these contracts were that were being put in front of me at 14. I didn't know. So I would run upstairs to my room and cry. I remember I burned my journal in the fireplace, just thinking, you know, this is the end of a normal life for me.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  And then I signed the contracts and that was it. And I still didn't really know.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Rewind for two seconds. Why were you burning your journal in the fireplace?

• 12:02Speaker 02

  Because I talked about all these people I had crushes on and I just didn't want anyone to find that out.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Meanwhile, it's like full gold in there, platinum. You're called platinum, baby. You're like, oh, wait.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Why did I burn it?

• 12:14Speaker 00

  Literally.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Shouldn't have burned it. I actually have legit diary burning regret. It's a thing.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  And so you just, why? Cause you were just like, I don't want to lean into these emotions and these feelings.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, no. I want to lean into the feelings. I just don't want anyone to know anything. I just got really hidey. I'm an introvert. So this whole life that was sort of presented as an option, I just thought, wow.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  How am I going to do this? I'm a poodle inside a black stallion. It's like, the black stallion is lovely and awesome, but the poodle, the, the nervous system, you know, so.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  But also what's so crazy is to even hear you say that. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, you are, the breakup anthems that you've written, the push and pull dynamics between the person that you're in love with, or that you hate, or you both.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's usually both.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Like, to hear the way that you have been able to pen to paper and then release that into the world. And to hear you be like, oh, I wanted no one at first to hear any of this. How did you get through that?

• 13:19Speaker 02

  I know. I'm, I'm fine with everyone hearing everything. I didn't want anyone to know because there's layers of vulnerability. And, and I do receive a lot of comments around how is it possible to be that publicly vulnerable? And empowered. And I'm like, first of all, thank you. Uh, but you can do both. You can be empowered and vulnerable. I can be comfortable sharing that I feel anger and shame and guilt and fear and joy. But I might not want you to know the seven people I'm obsessing over right now.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Maybe not. But also, did you, did you ever change like light little details? Cause you're like, I refuse to let him know this one's about him.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. I never tell anybody anything ever.

• 13:59Speaker 00

  But do you think your, some of your exes knew it was them?

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Well, here's the thing. If you're calling me up, which some of them did, and saying, is that song about me? We're done.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Really? Okay.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  You're like, well, does the shoe fit?

• 14:13Speaker 02

  You tell me. Does this resonate?

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  And if it does to the point where you're calling me, aren't we done?

• 14:21Speaker 00

  We're done.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  We're done. This wasn't written for some overt revenge. I love revenge fantasy. Just keep it a fantasy. Write about it or sing about it.

• 14:32Speaker 00

  That's the best.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  But, but real revenge is, no, nobody wins.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, but real revenge does end up happening when your name is, uh, like, and then you put it out and then it's like, uh, everyone is going to listen to this. That's a pretty good form of revenge.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. Okay, Alex.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  You're like, yeah, yeah, whatever you say.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  No, that's totally true.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  You, I think it's important also to emphasize, you reference all these men in these suits and you being like, I didn't know what getting published meant. Like, I just was a talented young woman who had a very, very specific skill, obviously. And everyone saw that you had that skill. And so everyone's going to be interested in monetizing that. But back then, I don't think we really had the language or the understanding to even call certain things for what it was. Like, oh, that's a double standard or.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Or that's gaslighting or that, yeah, all these beautiful new words.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Right? That's emotional abuse. That's the patriarchy. That's misogyny.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Sexual abuse. A lot of that.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  No language to explain a lot of times how specifically I think women were feeling. In what ways did you feel yourself up against that push and pull of like, I feel like something's off here, but I don't know how, like what this is?

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Well, there was a lot of extraction and exploitation. So already there's a dehumanization.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  The fame one is a whole other concept of conversation, but in those rooms with the, with the soup peeps, there was no attunement or empathy, a lot of personality disorders, a lot of misogyny, a lot of just hate of the feminine. Not just women. It's like, we hate women, yes, but we also hate the feminine. We hate vulnerability, but we want it. We want tenderness, but we can't say we want it. There's just so many indoctrination conversation of how we're supposed to live, what we're supposed to want, how we're supposed to present. Meanwhile, we're all animals. We're all humans with a little neofrontal doing our best.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  And isn't it so weird when you say that too? It's like, the men who hate that so much, but a lot of these men are recognizing this is what will sell. So they're not afraid for you to put it in the song and to have it released.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Oh, they love it.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  They love it so much, but behind closed doors, there's, they still hate.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Well, it's also, people were very generous, uh, by saying, oh, you know, you've changed the game. You know, there was a point in time where it was, you know, if we called a radio station to see if they would play one of my songs, they would say, we can't play it. We're playing Sinead. Or we can't play it at this radio station. We're already playing Tory.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  One woman.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  So that all changed and it was a beautiful, I just felt like I volunteered to ride the hugest wave. I put my hand up before the question was even asked somehow. And the wave was happening without me and I just happened to be on it. And I said, yeah, put me at the front. I'll get my head chopped off.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  Don't, do you think though, Alana, that that comes from just something within you that you were born with or something that you actually were taught?

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Rage.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Best activism is rage fueled.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  Anger is such a powerful emotion, which I think we all should lean into, which I want to talk to you about because, oh, we're going to get there.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Oh, God, oh, God.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  But it's like to recognize where it's coming from, to have some control over it for yourself and understanding.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  That's containment. So that's like, you know, be, reading a room, being discerning, is this appropriate here? And getting older, it's like, oh, rage just transmutes into this. I mean, it's always beautiful. I think anger is beautiful. I think rage is trauma. If we're raging, we're traumatized. If you're a woman in the world of patriarchy, how are you not enraged if you're really looking at it with us?

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Every day.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  So that's not going anywhere.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  I'm getting enraged right now.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  I want to bro something, but not at you.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  Not at you. Together, together. No, literally. Um, you have said that men often referred to you as mature for your age. And you thought it was to justify it in their own bodies, like they needed it to be true.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Can we talk about how men do this and why they do this in your opinion, from what you've experienced?

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Why, why they tell a young person that they're poised and wise beyond their years to justify their sexual predatory actions?

• 19:04Speaker 00

  And it's so transparent. And yet, when it happens to a young woman, when you.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  There's a freeze response.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  We fight, flight, freeze, collapse, or appease, or befriend. All five of them are great, but freeze is just kind of the normal one. On an animal level, you're being predatored and you can't do anything about it.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  And at a young age, we don't have the wherewithal, because we haven't had the life experience as a young girl to even understand. So you naturally take that as a compliment. You're like, amazing. So I can hang in the room with the suits, but it's also on other.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  But it's reductive.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Of course. Yeah, of course. You don't know that though, in the moment, fully?

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Not when you're young and especially if what's been ascribed to you as your only, as your one gift, as Joe and little women would say,

• 19:53Speaker 02

  is your sexuality and your come hitherness. So as a, at what age at this point, you know, young people through puberty, they reach a certain age and then all of a sudden there's a different kind of gaze. It's terrifying.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  It is terrifying. And at some point, you also wish that there were adults in those rooms.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Who would recognize the obvious power imbalance and help the young woman understand that that is not a compliment and they're going to do everything to protect them from that person who is clearly a predator. And yet we continue to be let down.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, we're not, we're in the dome of patriarchy. Nothing's going to be fixed in there. We're just going to run in circles. So I'm over here. So instead of spending inordinate amounts of time talking about how the patriarchy is just not helping anybody, just come over here and talk from here.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  And talking also is such a weapon because it is a threat to them. And the more we keep talking about it and exposing it,

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  then their rage comes out. And I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. Am I making you uncomfortable? Like you've made us uncomfortable?

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Like the last 10,000 years.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  10,000 years. Uh huh. Um, I also read your former business manager, as if it couldn't get worse, stole millions of dollars from you.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  How did you first even realize this was happening?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Something felt weird. A woman's intuition.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Okay. And what did you do when you had that gut feeling?

• 21:26Speaker 02

  I just kept going into, um, the new business manager's office over and over and saying, I need more information because something's up and I don't know what. And I kept coming in to the point where, God bless, they, they said, why are you here in this boardroom? And I said, I still don't have the answer yet. And so my husband was sitting next to me and he was going through papers and he noticed some inconsistencies. Anyway, what's up with this?

• 21:54Speaker 02

  And then we called everyone into the room. They looked at it and they said, we'll get back to you. And then at first it was like, do you spend cash a lot, you know?

• 22:04Speaker 02

  On ballet?

• 22:06Speaker 00

  That is.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  That's, that's a unique one.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  It is. And it's also, it's, it's at face value. Yes. It's like the money, but it's like the entitlement to your earnings.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  What was beautiful about it was that I just stayed the course, one foot in front of the other, just keep showing up. And then when I spoke at the trial or the sentencing hearing, the judge was a woman. And she was like, I just looked right at her. It was really actually quite corrective for me. Yeah. But also money, right?

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  When a bias against wealth, bias against women, bias against women knowing.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  Oh, of cour- well, even it's like you having all the right to be asking those questions and the amount of time that you needed to ask.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Four more times.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  And it's.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  And still don't get an answer?

• 22:57Speaker 00

  And it's your money.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  And somehow, and it's like, you know, if a man walked in there and said, show me my, they'd be like, uh, uh, uh, and they'd show it to him. But it's like, beca- and then the betrayal and the mistrust that comes from that, you're like, and you all wonder why we're angry.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Yes. And that's just the iceberg tip. We know this.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Oh, sweetie. It's just the beginning.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  Hold you. Hold you in your baby.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Okay, let's start. I wanted to, I wanted to get into this topic because You Oughta Know was intentionally the lead single on your breakthrough album because you said you wanted to open with anger. To people who don't understand what we're even talking about, can you explain your thought process around that decision for that single?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Well, the thing about patriarchy is, um, there's a reduction imposed on women. So for me, I knew that being a complex human being with 75 multidimensional layers might be a little much for some. I was dumped many times for my multidimensionality. So the messaging basically was just reduce yourself and everything's going to be okay. And try to be quiet if you can. So, um, A Hand in My Pocket was an option and Ironic was an option as for a single. And I remember thinking, no, we just, we just have to just, just put You Oughta Know out and then we talk. Cause I had too much Rajas.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  I had too much energy to, to not have that be first. And then that I could speak to effortlessly.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  How did your team feel about that?

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Who cares?

• 24:33Speaker 00

  No, I was kidding.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  You're like, well.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  My team of suits. No, um, yeah, they were, they were into it. I mean, they definitely, when they first got the record, they said, this is a little caustic. It's a little intense for us. And I said, well, if you want a, a Dan Steely record, why don't you sign a Dan Steely? And they were like, it's Steely Dan. Oh, like, right. Uh, I'm 19, I'm caustic.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Right. Well, and it's also like you coming out and having this single that is, you know, leading with this anger and this rage, which is so enticing for so many women, obviously, because so many women didn't feel like they could have that. But also there are songs that obviously have joy. It's this dichotomy of a woman that gets everyone in a frenzy of, oh my God, how can she be both? And I think it's very unsettling for a lot of people. You leaning into the anger at first, did you feel like there was any initial conversation or backlash around that?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  There was terror and resistance, but that's just normal. I mean, what new? A Tuesday.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  I just can't get over though, how? And maybe it's also because I'm meeting you where you're at right now, but I have a feeling if I met you even back then, it feels like it was similar. Like there was no

• 25:58Speaker 00

  apprehension from you or nerves around like, oh God, are people going to crucify me? Like, are people going to think I'm crazy? Cause that is what happens with a lot of women. If we come out as angry, they're like, oh, she's insane.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. The C word.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. But you know, at that point, project onto me all you want. Project that I'm the Antichrist. Project that I'm terrifying or comp- like too comp- basically too much, right? My whole life, I've just heard that I'm too much. And at this point, I'm at menopause time. I'm just like, too much. You mean exactly who I am? Yeah.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  Do you think that when you were in your teens and twenties, did you ever have a moment where you were by yourself in your room being like, this is a lot to bear the burden of?

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Um, every time I put a record out without fail, I wake up at four in the morning, the, the morning of release and have a full panic attack. I mean, I'm always nervous. People are like, how do you deal with your nerves? I'm like, I don't know.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  No, I get, I get that. It's almost like, yes, and yeah, I'm nervous, but.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  But I'm also here.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  And I had the decision to either put this thing out and go with my gut. And yeah, I can be nervous as hell and want to vomit and hopefully no one sees. Or I could just.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Or everyone sees.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Right. Or everyone sees.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Perfect. So beautiful.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Right. Or you can freeze and you cannot do anything with it. And then you're just left wondering, what if?

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Well, then you're in your 50s going, I, I want to make up for some lost time and which is also do it when you can do it.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Can. One question I do have to ask about that time also, aside from the anger is, I feel like some of the lyrics, which I love, were a little sexually ahead of their time, maybe?

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Quote, and are you thinking of me when you fuck her?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Are we?

• 27:53Speaker 00

  It's a great question.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  I mean, it's a legit curiosity.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  It is. Do you remember if there was any backlash or around that lyrically?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Um, I believe there was, and I talk about it in the Butterfly with a Machete show. There was, there was a moment while writing You Oughta Know where I thought, oh, I'll just, let's just write it. Don't edit, don't censor as always. And then later, if I have to take a swear word out, I'll take it out. And I remember having said that to Glenn Ballard and he turned to me and he said, why? And I said, well, but I don't want this to turn into the, the lead character of the song, you know? He said, but if you felt that way, yes? And I said, yes. And he goes, so there it is. And God bless him for that level of support.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Did you ever feel like you were punished for refusing to be more palatable?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  I think a lot of people who were reaching out to me were trying to figure out what I was doing and I, I couldn't even explain it to them. Like a lot of people in the industry and then a lot of people who wanted to date me. I was very reticent. Because why? Like with fame, I love this part, by the way. Someone's sitting across from you, telling you how much they admire you, how much you've been a catalyst in their life, how much you've validated, empathized, uplifted, all of those things. Amazing, right? The greatest. And you're not seen. Cause it's not about you. So I've been looking, I've really been deconstructing this whole idea of fame because fame used to be a means to an end. Joni Mitchell or

• 29:30Speaker 02

  commentary on the Vietnam war. Like it was a means to an end. Now fame is the end.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Now fame is some panacea, apparently? No.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. But a lot of people are just like, I want fame.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  For in and of itself. And as some of us know, who've had the privilege and horror of being inside it, you know, it's a very complicated social construct. And for me, I thought, oh, there's, there could be some attachment correction here, eye contact, you know, and the opposite is true. Fame amplifies any pain. It amplifies any trauma, amplifies everything. And now you're in the public eye. And now people can't necessarily even see you as the human being because you're fill in the blank for them.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that makes me think about that year you were on the cover of Rolling Stone and the headline was angry white female. Do you remember your reaction when you saw the magazine?

• 30:27Speaker 02

  It was like female.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Interesting presumption. Um, no, I, I again, same, same state of being as the pick You Oughta Know as the first single. Um, great. Whatever you need to call me. I know you have to call me one thing because you can't possibly hold space for the multitudinousness that is all humans. Um, so yeah, you want to pick one? Anger's great. Go. I don't care.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  It's, it didn't get under your skin at all?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  I loved it because I got to talk about feelings and anger. It was the best.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Right. And do you think you're someone more also at that point that was like, and if they're talking, who gives a shit?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  I wasn't that advanced.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  I also operate from an inside out approach. And some of that has me be a little blind to the receptivity or lack of receptivity, but I, I hear about it later.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  How do you think for any woman listening? Because sometimes it is really difficult when labels are placed on you. Like we said, the C word, and you're crazy and you're this and you're that, and you're angry. How do you think throughout your career, you've personally learned to strip those labels of their power? And if anything, just make them?

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Positive for you or use them to your advantage?

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Well, the ones that hurt, I just do inner work with those. So if someone says, I don't even know at this point, I've, I've used a lot of the words in the press over the years because there was a lot of hate. There were websites constructed to figure out how to murder me most elegantly. And so

• 32:01Speaker 00

  Alanis, I love how you just drop these things casually and you were about to go right past that. I'm like,

• 32:06Speaker 02

  You're like, what?

• 32:08Speaker 00

  What?

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Well, there was a lot of hate and it was very, very out there. And a lot of people, a lot of artists whom I respected and lived for were disparagingly speaking about me. Later Sinead apologized, which was really classy. But yeah, I mean, it was, it was not a girl squad. There were no girl squads.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  How did you find support during that time? Like, were you close with your family?

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Therapy.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Therapy?

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, I, I have a whole team. I have a freaking team and a lot of parts work. So if I read something in the press that triggered me and I felt terrible, obviously that part needs a little dialogue here because, and so it became shadow work 101 for me.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Can you give an example of something back then? I know it probably doesn't now, but anything back then?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  I think Courtney Love was calling me fake, which is so funny. And she also apologized later and said very kind things, but um, so fake would be one. And as an example, I would take fake and go, what kind of person is fake? Someone who's maybe lying, lying to themselves. Do I lie to myself? Yeah, lie to myself. Let's talk to the part that lies to myself. Okay. What do you need? What wisdom do you have? What action can I take on your behalf? Just, and every little part in here that is trying, that maybe acting out or behaving in a terrible horrifying way, like maybe you want to take me out, they're all trying to protect. They're all trying to help.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  So a lot of the things, when you would get criticism, it would hurt, which I think makes a lot of sense, of course. And the ones that hurt the most were ones where you were like,

• 33:41Speaker 02

  I needed to do some looking at it.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  And fake?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  And that's how you know, because if someone says, oh, Alanis, you're really, if someone says something that's not a trigger for me, it's water off a duck's back.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  So for me, if something's not water off a duck's back, let's look at it.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  There's also this thing where it's so fun to be able to look back and have perspective. And everyone's like, oh, my gosh, you were such a trailblazer at the time and you did all these things. But then a lot of the times when you have those conversations with those type of people, if you actually were in it in their day to day and living it during the time, it was hell for them. They were getting scrutinized and hatred. There's websites telling, figuring out how they can murder you. And we miss all of that.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  But a lot of times to actually make certain change, you have to go against the grain, which you were doing.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  But then we're still doing that.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  We are.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 00

  But also to hear that a lot of you, the people around you in the industry were not receptive towards you.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, they were upset. I was, you know, it's like people being jealous of Taylor Swift. Like it's, it's just, and I think the implication there for me was that the, the presupposition on the planet was that there's one throne. Only Alex can sit in the throne, everybody. Everyone else, you fail, you lose, you're ugly. Bye. What? That's patriarchy. That's scarcity mindset.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  And isn't that so crazy? It's like, then they want to put a stake through you because you're sitting at the top. It's also like, if not you, then there's gonna be someone else. And then are we going to take them down too? And we see the cycle repeat. Yes. And it just repeats and repeats.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Always, right?

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Of course, of course.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  And for me also, I've noticed, because I've been in the public eye since I was 14, it goes like this. You, I loved you, I hated you, I loved you, I hated. And Taylor talks about that all the time.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  You can never be loved forever. It's, there's

• 35:35Speaker 02

  I mean, you can, but that's in the underneath, underneath.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  True. And if you're going to be loved forever, you probably have, you have a version of lost yourself because to be loved constantly means that you're appeasing everyone else. And then you're never actually being authentic.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  And is it even possible? There's no such thing. You're going to piss people off because you appease.

• 36:01Speaker 00

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• 37:23Speaker 00

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• 37:54Speaker 02

  Let's talk about dating. My favorite topic.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Amazing. I know you referenced you were sitting across from sometimes someone on a date. You referenced it a little bit earlier and they're saying all these amazing things, but you're like, oh, you don't even see me.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Jagged little pill comes out, 21, your life changes forever. How did you even connect with men in a way or women in a way that you felt seen because of this fame and all of these issues?

• 38:22Speaker 02

  I didn't.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  How did that impact your songwriting?

• 38:27Speaker 02

  The loneliness persisted.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  The abject cellular loneliness. But I mean, that's what it is. And so for me also, my survival strategy also, and I've worked so hard on this, has also included other orientation, right? Raised in narcissism, my existence meant beholding other, being supply for narcissism. I don't even exist. There's not even a person here. So yeah, do I have a big self when people meet me? Maybe. But over the years, there was no felt sense of self because my whole orientation was focused on other. And so over the years, doing all kinds of different trauma therapy models and finally getting to a point where I'm in this body and that I'm actually here.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  And the disappearing and the invisibility, it's a big deal. This invisibility wound and in patriarchy, how are women not going to feel some fucking semblance of invisibility? They can't not.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  Okay. Rewind. Raised in narcissism. Explain.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  So what happens with a young creature at the attachment stage when you're looking? This is when we get, you know, the identity stage, your parents mirror you. You go, Alex, you're so smart. You're so funny. You know, and you're just mirroring the person. The child goes, oh, I exist. I'm here. When that doesn't happen, it's this floaty felt sense of experience. And then my survival strategy was to take care of other people. So I'm floating, no felt embodied.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Taking care of other. And then the only touch was through acting out sexually. Because everything was mixed together. The only way a woman could be acknowledged when she's little, like you said earlier, is, oh, sexual energy. Ha, ha, ha. I'm going to erotically go for you or predator you or take you or whatever. Right? So the woman goes, the young woman goes, oh, this is my power. Oh, I noticed that when I'm come hither or come hither, uh, I get seen, I get looked at, I get touched, I get, oh. But it's so sad because it's this one tiny little route. And a human being, your sexuality is beautiful. It's huge. And it is one piece of you.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  No, it's so true. And also I was like, I recently did this series on attachment styles, which I want to get into with you because that's what you're basically talking about. And I think you describing your childhood, it is such a hard thread for all of us as human beings, when you don't have that nurturer looking at you, whoever is your, you know, person that's taking care of you, giving you a secure attachment, giving you validation, but also proper validation.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  It's mirroring.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Consistency, right? The fact that you're saying, you know, from a young age as a young girl, then you're like, okay, maybe sexually, this is something that, because you're looking for any way to have people love you.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  And that is so harmful to ourselves because then you're

• 41:41Speaker 02

  There's no self.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  No self. And you're so young. What's actually going to fulfill you?

• 41:44Speaker 02

  To be in charge of your own developmental

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Growing up on your own is very lonely. And I'm not even just thinking about me. I'm just thinking about the idea of it. So attachment, which you just brought up and then exploration and the it's cumulative. So ideally we're securely attached and then we explore. You know, keep looking back at the caregiver. And then we go into identity, the mirroring. So what I see, I'm putting it into words. I see you. You are Spider-Man. Right. And then the last one or the fourth is competence and it keeps going, but.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  It keeps going, but when you, because I do think it's really relatable for a lot of women watching. Like, do you have anything you now in having gone through so much therapy and having such a secure, strong sense of self? Is there anything you wish you could tell that younger girl who understandably was seeking?

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Love.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Love and sexuality brought out what felt like temporary love, but then it also, the crash is even bigger. Do you have any advice for women listening who maybe are still in that cycle?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  So one interesting inquiry for me was pulling them, teasing them apart. And seeing that, am I, do I need attachment love right now? Or is my eroticism wanting to be expressed or both? But just getting clear on that.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  When you look back, maybe in your early twenties, let's say, raised narcissism, trying to figure out your sense of self. Did you see any patterns with partners that you were really attracted to? And how did you break out of those patterns?

• 43:25Speaker 02

  I was attracted to narcissism, shocker. And as an empath, you know, we tend to be a magnet for narcissists. It's not uncommon.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  And my, there's a beautiful book called Keeping the Love You Find by Harville Hendrix. It just basically lays out where you're going to feel high chemistry, based on your unconscious unfinished business. And that the degree of commitment and intimacy portends for the degree of healing available. And yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful book in terms of understanding what seems so mysterious. It's this unconscious drive to become whole and to reinvigorate our aliveness. We all want to feel alive.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  It's so relatable and it's so complicated because it's rooted in everything we are from the day we are born.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  I know.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  And I know you have talked about how you dealt with codependency and love addiction. What emotional toll, though, does that eventually take on you?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  A complete self-annihilation and obliteration and years of coming back into who you barely were before you began.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  I think that's what's so fascinating is like how enmeshed you can get in relationships. And how I also think it's so hard to see when you're in it.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  You can't.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  You can't see it at all.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  It just hurts.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  And it hurts and you and you feel like, but maybe if I try harder.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Well, that's the appeasement, right? The appeasement is if I see them a little better or if I hold them or if I empathize more, if I leave more space. But the no self is, is the theme and the survival strategy of other focus. There is no self.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Do you have a moment you remember? Because it's so hard. It's like, we can look back and be like, oh, that was that. But is there ever a moment you remember being like, I have to leave? Like, is there anything that ever happened that you were like, this specifically made me walk out the door?

• 45:25Speaker 02

  I had a few, there's a song I wrote called That Particular Time. And basically, I just keep getting into that appeasement part that just tried to figure out how to make something untenable, tenable. And it isn't, and it won't be, and it's painful. And so how do you construct a self from nothing? And guess what? The hack of all time, and you said it at the beginning of our conversation. Gathering. Gather. Period. Because if we get together and we're talking and we're processing, it moves worlds.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  And a lot of times when you're in those situations, you are so isolated. But if you do open yourself up to a friend or a family member or something slowly, you're like, oh, maybe I'm not crazy.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Maybe there are billions of other people asking this very question at the same time.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  You and your husband, Soli, got married when you were 35. What about that relationship felt different to you?

• 46:28Speaker 02

  I had had my, the pattern was done. And I just basically went against type.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Which is sometimes really scary.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  It's all scary.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Right?

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Everything is scary about dating. It's terrible.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  Because you're.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  I don't recommend.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Because you're also so aware when you're going against your type and you're like, be open minded, be open minded. And every.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Stay here.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Right? Everything in your body is like, go back, go back, go back. And you're like, if we go back one more time, I'm gonna lose it. So no, we have to stay the course.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  I can't. I mean, how many times do you repeat the same pattern? And by the way, my answer is 100, like.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  More than 100.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  108.7.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Okay, so you just went against.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Oh, I had to. Because I also was ready for a family and his, Soli's loyalty and constancy. There were some qualities where I went, family now. Right? I was like, these are the best. This is, this is it. And I always wanted to be a mom. I always wanted to have kids. So it was a bit of a no brainer for me.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  You have three children. And a conversation that I've been having a lot on my show recently has been kind of just surrounding motherhood and postpartum depression is something that is such a unfortunately tricky topic to talk about because there's so much judgment from other people. And you have been such an incredible voice when talking about your experience and being so open about it, which I have so much respect for. And you even described it as being covered in tar and underwater. Can you just talk more about your feelings and what you were going through back at that time in your life?

• 48:14Speaker 02

  I had, I call it postpartum activity because it's not just depression. And I mean, depression on its own.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  And if you've had a history depression, and then from my experience, each postpartum depression gets increasingly harder.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Just wanted to meet my kids though so badly, so I kept going. But basically I became another person. And all the hormones are all over the place. And so there's some version of menopausal flux combined with depression, invasive thoughts that are so harrowing, terrible, ceaseless. Invasive thoughts, anxiety, depression, rage, off the charts.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  I felt completely out of control. And yet I was touring and leading and being a boss and being someone taking care of money and finances and everything. And that part is the part where when I'm quiet and alone, I might weep a little bit here and there about that.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  When you first started to experience symptoms, how did you even make sense of them?

• 49:29Speaker 02

  I didn't. And I reached out to so many therapists and all due respect.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  One well-meaning therapist said, sweetheart, when it gets really bad, just put your hands over your eyes like this. And I was like.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  You're like, you know, I'm not a therapist, but I have a feeling.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  I played one on TV and I know a little bit more than that.

• 49:53Speaker 00

  You're like, I've got a feeling that's not the answer.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  That's a thoughtful answer. Anyway.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  That can't be the answer.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  It isn't.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Oh, my.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  And I spoke with a lot of really, really smart, supportive, postpartum support peeps. And it was still really, really, really, really, really, really hard.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  I wrote down, after your first baby, you kind of talked about how you waited to get help because your instinct was to white knuckle your way through it.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Welcome to Generation X.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. What did you come to learn about that mindset?

• 50:28Speaker 02

  The, the steel. I mean, that's what we, Gen X does it, but also women do it. This invisible low thing, no, no, it's not going to be invisible anymore. We're making it visible. I'm going to tell you the 37 things that we do an hour.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  And what we're thinking about when it looks like we're sitting there waiting for you to speak to us? What we're actually thinking about, what we're actually processing, but let's name it. Even us calling it invisible load keeps it invisible, not invisible. The load, we talk about it at the DM. Just like, this is the load. And I used to do these horrifying things with whiteboards where I would be like, I'm gonna write down everything I'm doing. Why don't you do the same?

• 51:08Speaker 00

  They're like, oh, God. He's like, um, let's not.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  You know, I'm gonna go make you dinner.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  He's like, I am gonna go do the dishes and cook dinner and do the laundry. Bye.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  Right, and clean the whole house.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  You're like, and.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Why don't you wheel that whiteboard out of here? I have two whiteboards in my bedroom.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. So you, you mentioned that each postpartum depression or postpartum activity, it got.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Increasingly worse.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Increasingly worse each pregnancy for you. How did you manage knowing it was coming on maybe the second and third time? And, and how did that look different, the way that you handled it then versus maybe the first time?

• 51:51Speaker 02

  Each time I thought, well, not, not this time. Cause I just had to think that.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Oh, first time I waited a year and two months.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Second time I waited eight months. And third time, I think I waited three days. I was just like, oh, no, I'm not doing this again. And I did it again. And then we toured during COVID. I was just like, wow.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  Oh, Alanis, you toured?

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Postpartum depression, third one during COVID.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  You're like, this'll solve it.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  You know what? This is gonna make everything. All I remember is Shirley Manson. Before every show, every night she'd say, we gonna go on? And I said, Shirley, tonight we go on. This is all I know. It was one of those.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  And were you able to just push through in those moments? But then would it all come crashing down the minute you would get offstage?

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Uh, back at the hotel, yeah. But I still showed up like I was, I dipped into psychosis. It was a wild ride. Um, and then I'd have people in the business going, what's going on with her? Now she's extra crazy. I'm just like, all right, thanks for that beautiful chestnut. Wear it again.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  I've heard a lot of moms who also have experienced postpartum depression, talk about the guilt and the shame of like,

• 53:09Speaker 02

  I'm supposed to be filling the blank.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Right. Like, I'm supposed to be, this is supposed to be the best, most beautiful time of my life. And I am supposed to be happy and the happiest. Did you experience that?

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Uh, no, but I've been playing with depression my whole life. And joy is very, very cool. It's activism for me now.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Joy, pleasure, connection, human contact.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Having dealt with depression your whole life, how did you? Were there, was there anything that you did similar to cope and to handle the postpartum element of it? Or were they just very different experiences?

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Um,

• 53:53Speaker 02

  the, the depression piece inside PPD.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, unfortunately, I was familiar with it. It was all the other stuff. It was the invasive thoughts and the terror. Just all I could picture was death and terrible things. And yeah, I mean,

• 54:13Speaker 02

  I feel so happy that I'm back, by the way. And the, the bummer for me inside PPD was that I was losing people's trust in my sanity. That's a bummer. When you, when I have spent my whole life attempting to establish to people I love that I'm safe and that I'm predictable. And then all of a sudden I wasn't. That was a loss. Cause people looked at me differently. They looked at me like I maybe couldn't be trusted or was gonna fly off the handle. And that's not, that's not my thing.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  But also it's, and from what I've understood, cause I haven't experienced it, but like, there's also the element of you're so afraid to say these things out loud.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  They're terrible, yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Because you're like, oh, you're gonna think I'm insane.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:04Speaker 00

  But in a sense, from what I understand, it's like, we need to say these things out loud.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  And, but then it's being met with such judgment. So then you just go back into a corner and we haven't figured out the solve at all for women.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Well, gathering, I mean, the solve for women is us going back to how we used to live, which is honoring the female endocrine system as a spiritual fricking practice. And that when a woman is with fricking child, that she is surrounded by 30 women and they're giving you broth and they're cleaning your home and they're holding your baby and they're holding you. And so of course the women are gonna suffer.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  The fricking life givers are gonna suffer? Everyone's okay with this.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  It is so crazy too, when everyone will treat a pregnant woman with such grace and love.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  And her second trimester only.

• 55:57Speaker 00

  Uh, it's true, true.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  First trimester.

• 56:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, shut up.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  You're bugging me.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're annoying.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Second trimester, oh, oh, oh, you have a child.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  No, and that's what's so sad, right? The minute the mother gives birth, it's like we.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  She gets invisible again.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  We, she's invisible and it's all the baby. And it's like, wait, this woman just went through the most transformative in moments traumatic experience that a physiologically a human being could ever go through and neurologically.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 56:29Speaker 00

  And we're just like, get up, the baby's crying.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  And why aren't you, why haven't you lost your 42 pounds yet?

• 56:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, what's going on there?

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Why don't you get back to your aesthetic pleasing for me?

• 56:39Speaker 00

  You look like you're going through it. You better get it together.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Wow. Do you have a trainer, anybody to help you with this?

• 56:47Speaker 02

  I did. But what, how am I supposed to, oh, you're leaving me alone with that?

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Okay, perfect, perfect.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  So community is community. Get community all around.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  And casserole. And casserole.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Casserole.

• 57:01Speaker 00

  And lots of casserole.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  The casserole.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  You, which I think is so admirable, you did choose to speak about postpartum depression publicly while you were still going through it.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  Why was it important for you to not wait until you were on the other side of it and just say what was going on?

• 57:20Speaker 02

  It just was what was happening. So, and it was happening again for the third time. And I had heard at this point, because I'd been so outspoken about it, people were, my phone was blowing up. And someone would say, oh, my gosh, my daughter-in-law, she just pulled the car over and is running down the street. What do I do? And I'm like, why is she driving?

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Why is she even out of the house? Why is she driving? Get her in the passenger seat.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  So you, so you got a lot of response from other women once you, and it was just.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  It was amazing because it was just a yes and, damn. And then by the third time, oh yeah, let me, let me keep speaking about this because I started to realize that I was so not alone.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. That is the best feeling when you're like, oh, I'm losing it. I'm, oh, you guys are all going through this too? Oh, wait.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Yes, this is normal.

• 58:12Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by My Mochi. Everyone is talking about Dubai chocolate, chocolate with pistachio flavored cream. Well, now Mochi ice cream has its own version of Dubai chocolate. Spoiler alert, guys, it's delicious. My Mochi Dubai chocolate ice cream is premium pistachio flavored ice cream with Kadiah and chocolatey flavored bits wrapped in sweet chewy chocolate flavored dough. It's only 80 calories per piece, nut free and easy to share because it comes in a box with six individual snacks. I am obsessed with My Mochi.

• 59:04Speaker 00

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• 59:49Speaker 00

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• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  For you, what has been the best part of getting older?

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  Uh, the words that fly out of my mouth that I can't believe are flying out of my mouth. Yes, it's like my objective ego watches it fly.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  I'll be in meetings and someone will say something and I'll just say, that's patriarchal. And then just keep talking or like, that's really rude. Or I just, it just flies out and I can't stop. And this was not my way.

• 1:01:03Speaker 00

  It wasn't.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  I was more just kind of stay quiet, introvert. Four with a five wing and the enneagrams, people watching, beholding, worrying, processing it later. Menopause happens and now I'm just like, boom, nope, rude, patriarchal, misogynistic. So I can't stop.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  What do people do when you do that?

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  I don't care.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  Like honestly, I don't know.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  Honestly, we'll find out. I'll do some research.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. I, I, I wrote that down. You referred to menopause as a truth serum. Because it's given you the freedom to say what you want, which is exactly what you're talking about right now. What is something that you've maybe just been recently more honest about that you're like, oh my God, younger me would never?

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Well, what I love about menopause is often people use the metaphor that, you know, every leaf on the tree gets pulled or every stone gets turned, you know, like, no, for me, for me, it feels like the tree itself was ripped out of the ground and the roots are everywhere and like, good luck. And so everything, identity, sexuality, finances, uh, invisible load no longer being invisible, girlfriends, deepening friendships. I think friendships are the most unsung, see you at the deathbed, perfect relationships that make for so much repair and correction and healing. And we don't talk about it very much. We talk about dating, which is the greatest, but, but friendships.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  Oh, it's what it keeps you sane and stable and it's everything. It's so true.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  And like, speaking your mind and the power of speaking your mind, what is one thing also that in life you realize you kind of can't learn it, it just comes with age?

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Uh, for me, my reactivity has gotten less and less and less. Like almost there's just more room for humanity. There's more room for vulnerability. There's more room for power. There's more room for everything. There's more space as I get older and yeah, I just, it's not a roller coaster. I mean, it's a roller coaster hormonally, but it's not existentially a roller coaster. It's like an, it's like an observation. I'm, I'm in this observation seat and I'm charmed. This, these new generations, I'm just like, so in love.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  No, it's such a good point. It really is. It's like you have so much more perspective and appreciation for everything you've gone through that you're like, oh, that's not that big of a deal or that is, but like, you're going to get through it. Like you've just done so much more, right? You have insight and that allows you to kind of observe more and not be as like upset about things or reactionary. I think that's a great point.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Yes. And when we're supporting younger people, our, I don't know if it's certainty, but our solidity is helpful for them. I feel we need the generations above us to lean on and mentors and teachers and uncles and aunts, like, keep that going.

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  It's such a good point.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

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• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Klaviyo. So Klaviyo says it's your brand's best friend. Both claim, but here's the thing. Klaviyo knows your brand, your tone, your customers, all your data in one place. Klaviyo's AI agents answer them 24/7 in your voice and build your campaigns from one prompt emails, texts and WhatsApp. Plus Klaviyo finds your next sale before you do. It's time to meet your new CRM BFF. Go to K L A V I Y O dot com slash best friends. You've been referencing this, but now I really want to get into it. You have a new residency in LA called Butterfly with a Machete.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:05:40Speaker 00

  That kind of blends your music with storytelling and insights from your life. And I just love the concept. It's genius and it's so interesting and it begins in November.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  What is the meaning behind the name? Like it's such a good name. It's so you, but please explain.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Yes. Well, there's a moment inside, I don't even know what to call it, musical piece show, where I talk about menopause and I'm such a symbologist and metaphor lover that it's, you know, the trend, the transmutation alchemically. Menopause. And then this beautiful butterfly step.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  So that is.

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  You're like, that's what I was going with Alex. That's where Butterfly with a Machete was born.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Menopause, but the show itself is, you know, the nineties, the, the credo was stay in your lane. And especially if you're a woman, stay in the reductive one, whatever one we ascribe to you, stay in that one. So then now 2026 is all about be everything. It's about your multitudinous. You have multiple intelligences. Let's rock all of them. You know, you, you want to do comedy and music and dance and movement and aesthetics and lights and, you know, yes. Terrifying because I've been told to stay in one lane my whole life, but really, really liberating.

• 1:07:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. How has this show, as you've, you know, put it together, helped you continue to fight the idea that you're too much and too much is a bad thing?

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  The whole show is about me grappling with the too muchness and telling stories that I didn't care about stories because I didn't care about myself. Um, and then I worked with a woman named Anne Randolph, who really supported me in seeing that stories can matter. And then I thought, okay, I'll try that on for size. And then after working with her for a few years, I finally care about the stories.

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  You're also embracing joy and fun. I heard that you're coming out with a holiday album. Alanis.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  What inspired this? Cause I, I'm a holiday girly.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  I'm a holiday girl.

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Then my son ever was born on Christmas day. So I'm an extra holiday girl.

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  Okay. Christmas morning.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  Okay. So yeah, we need a holiday album from you.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Just because of that.

• 1:08:04Speaker 00

  You have, you have street cred just because of that.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  And it, yeah.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  Oh, how did you, what inspired this?

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  Yes. So every Christmas over the last few years, we've done sort of one song. And then as they were accumulating, and I love them so much. I love singing these songs. I wrote a couple of new songs and we just made a record. So a song called To An Empath At Christmas Time. And a song called Christmas On The Dance Floor. And this record is just so sweet. It's just been this labor of Christmas love for me.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  Oh my God. I'm so excited. You don't even know. I'm going to be sitting in my house with my baby. I'm going to press play. I'm going to be listening to you and I'm just, all the vibes, all the vibes.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Can I bring you broth or some stew?

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  Yes. Yes.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  Yes. High protein stew.

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  Perfect. It's a date.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Um, what is your favorite song though, out of all the songs that you put together for this holiday album?

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  I, well,

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  there's a Judy Garland song that Martin, Martin, Martin Short and I are going to do.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  My favorite to sing is What Child Is This and Little Drummer Boy.

• 1:09:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Your voice with that one. I'll be listening to that. I'll be crying. All the emotions will be flooding. Yeah. All the whole thing. You can just envision it, can't you? Oh my God. Okay. Last question. I could literally talk to you forever, but um, you first gave women the permission to be angry. What's next? What do you want to see women step up and own?

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  For me, it's about seeing wholeness as a goal versus wellness.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  And wholeness isn't always the prettiest, most linear path. Um, bringing things online, parts that we've lost or denied, or cut off. Bringing them all slowly online. That's what I love supporting people. You know, if you're going from R to S or B to C, wherever the frick we are, that, uh, that I'm with you as you go. I mean, that's it. And I'm doing the same thing. I'm alongside.

• 1:10:19Speaker 00

  No, I do love that message so much because I just think there's such an fixation on, yes, you're right, like wellness and do this and be this and all of that. And yes, we can think about like the green juices and the Pilates and all that. But it really, what we're also talking about is like trying to be this unattainable version of ourselves and, and that's not realistic. And it's going to just make you feel like shit about yourself constantly. So to try to find the wholeness in life, what makes you feel whole? What makes you feel good and healthy?

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  What are your portals in?

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  How do you get served? So for me, it's, I don't even do Q and A anymore. I do Q and Q. Right? It's just inquiry. We're just, we're just looking at it. That's all we're doing. I have no answer. I don't know. I don't know you.

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  But you have a lot of answers.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  I mean, I have.

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  You had some great answers today.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. Thanks. You did. I have answers for myself.

• 1:11:12Speaker 00

  No, you did.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  I don't have answers for others.

• 1:11:14Speaker 00

  You are so interesting and it was such a pleasure talking to you. I knew we would have such a great conversation.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  I was so excited to speak with you.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  But like the different conversations we tapped into, and I think you're just such a savant and I love speaking to women that are like so driven.

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  And interested in what they do. And I just love how confident you are. Like even the way that you talked about from your childhood to the romantic relationships in your life, to also how that impacts, you know, your work and then being a mother versus having not been a mother when you were younger, just all the complexity of being a human being.

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  And all the different sectors that we have to tap into and try to fill our own cups with.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  You are fascinating and so smart and I can't thank you enough for opening up to me and just going there with me today. Seriously.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Thanks. I'm so happy that you have such spaciousness and capacity. Your capacity is very high.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  So was yours, girl. Thank you. It was a pleasure.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Such a joy.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:12:34Speaker 00

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• 1:14:01Speaker 00

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• 1:14:43Speaker 00

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