Tables Are Turned | EP 7 | Season 3

Cindy and Kenny squared off with Steve and Christine in court. At stake were their respective reputations and, potentially, millions of dollars. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. For more Burden of Guilt, follow us on Instagram @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 2:52Nancy Glass?

  In October of 2023, Cyndi and Kenny finally got their day in court. In that civil trial, they fought for damages and to clear Kenny's name.

• 3:03Speaker 18

  The children aren't lying. I believe that the father coached these children and convinced these children that these events actually happened to them.

• 3:11Nancy Glass?

  During that trial, new allegations against Cyndi and Kenny would come to light.

• 3:17Speaker 19

  Did you ever drug either of the boys? Did you ever shoot a dog in front of the children? Did you ever put hot needles in the boys?

• 3:28Nancy Glass?

  That wasn't somebody being facetious. After years without contact, Kenny and Cyndi faced new, almost fantastical accusations of child abuse.

• 3:39Speaker 23

  The boys are saying that me and Cyndi both beat him with a golf club. I broke his arm with a tire iron. I shot a dog in front of them and buried it. We were taking hot needles and stabbing them in the backs. We were making them eat out of the garbage.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  It was horrible.

• 4:00Speaker 23

  I mean, they just kept on going and going and elevating it to a whole new level.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  This is a great example of how children can be so thoroughly manipulated to say flat-out lies.

• 4:23Nancy Glass?

  I'm Nancy Glass, and this is season three, A Burden of Guilt. Episode seven, Tables Are Turned.

• 4:36Nancy Glass?

  In the summer of 2020, the district attorney's office dropped all child abuse charges against Kenny Hamp. A year later, the Department of Human Services overturned their abuse charges against Kenny and Cyndi. That's when they came up with a plan to fight back in a language Cyndi's ex-husband Steve would understand: money.

• 5:00Speaker 23

  I'm going to go after Steve on a civil lawsuit because he did this to me. He forever harmed me in my life. You know, I had this fear of going back to Steamboat for two years. I couldn't even stay the night in that town because I would literally just start shaking before driving into it because I felt like my life was in danger in that town. And he's going to be held responsible for it.

• 5:24Nancy Glass?

  Chris Decker was Kenny's lawyer.

• 5:27Speaker 15

  As a criminal defense attorney, when I saw this case, it was remarkable. This was a false narrative created by Steve and Christine in order to achieve an agenda of custody and retaliation.

• 5:44Nancy Glass?

  The crux of their suit was that Steve and his wife Christine fabricated these allegations of child abuse.

• 5:51Speaker 15

  To lead a child to believe they have been sexually abused when they haven't been is shock. It is profoundly abusive.

• 6:03Speaker 15

  There's no way I can wrap my brain around someone doing this to their own child.

• 6:10Nancy Glass?

  They believed that ever since Cyndi and Steve divorced, Steve had been trying to take away her three children.

• 6:16Speaker 15

  Steve was using every opportunity to try to leverage his position to get full custody. Kenny was the fall guy, and he presented the perfect opportunity for Steve to launch this narrative, this false dialogue of sexual abuse.

• 6:34Nancy Glass?

  By the time this case went to trial in 2023, Steve and the children had relocated from Colorado to Hawaii.

• 6:42Speaker 15

  You simply cannot get any farther away from the mother in continental United States than Hawaii.

• 6:49Nancy Glass?

  By then, Cyndi's role as a mother was painfully nonexistent. It had been more than four years since she had any normal parenting time with her children. Four long years.

• 7:02Nancy Glass?

  As for Kenny, he was still dealing with the shame and the embarrassment of the charges against him.

• 7:08Speaker 15

  What these two people went through is phenomenal.

• 7:14Speaker 15

  I mean,

• 7:17Speaker 15

  it makes me want to cry.

• 7:20Nancy Glass?

  And now they were about to embark on a weeks-long civil trial that would reveal the stunning lengths people would go to in order to get what they wanted. This trial would do what all other investigations had not done. It would shift the focus back to Steve and his wife Christine.

• 7:42Speaker 15

  Any decent human being is appalled by sexual abuse or physical abuse of a child. We all want to protect children and believe children. In the end, I think that's what Steve knew also. He knew that if he could turn this into allegations of sexual abuse, everyone would just believe it. And that's what happened initially. And it took years of hard litigation and fighting in order to put together all the facts, which showed this manipulation.

• 8:19Nancy Glass?

  To Chris, it was a risky strategy, but he also recognized how badly Cyndi and Kenny wanted to get their reputations back, and they had the means to try.

• 8:30Speaker 23

  We were fortunate because we could afford to do it. Unfortunately, we also provided a guy that had more money than we had.

• 8:41Nancy Glass?

  On October 23rd, 2023, more than four years after the initial wedgie accusation, the case finally went to trial in civil court. Jail time was not at stake, just money. Most of all, Cyndi wanted her kids back. That was a fight for another day, but winning this civil case would be the first step in making it happen.

• 9:05Speaker 23

  Steve's a bully. How do you put down a bully? Well, you got to fight him. You have to expose him and put him in their place. To Cyndi and I, it was about clearing our names. That's what we wanted.

• 9:25Nancy Glass?

  From the very first day of the civil trial, the courtroom itself reflected the scale of the fight.

• 9:32Nancy Glass?

  Not only were Cyndi and Kenny suing Steve, but Steve countersued Cyndi for defamation. And there were so many lawyers involved that several tables had to be pushed together just to accommodate everyone. Cyndi and Kenny's side had eight attorneys, including one who had defended Richard Nixon during the Watergate era. Steve and Christine's side had five. We don't have audio recordings, but we do have transcripts, so you'll hear actors reenact what was said under oath. On the opening day of the trial, Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker, wanted the jury to hear Kenny's testimony first, even though that was going to be uncomfortable for Kenny.

• 10:14Speaker 15

  He was very, very nervous. He had never been through any judicial proceedings before, but we pushed him very hard. We felt it was really important for that jury to hear from his words right up front. I didn't do this. I did not molest these kids. I love these kids, and I am the victim.

• 10:39Nancy Glass?

  On the stand, Steve and Christine's lawyers pried into every aspect of Kenny's life: his past relationships, his employment history, even his finances. Voice actors will read from court transcripts.

• 10:53Speaker 18

  You worked as an Uber driver, right? Yeah, I was in between jobs. And you had filed for bankruptcy in 2005, correct?

• 11:03Speaker 17

  Yeah. So you said initially she was going to pay off some of your debt. How much debt was that?

• 11:10Speaker 18

  It was roughly about $45,000.

• 11:13Speaker 15

  They were trying to portray him as this gold digging boyfriend. And they could never really get any footing on that because if you're trying to get a hold of money, why would you start dating a wealthy woman and then abuse the children? I mean, that that would not make any logical sense.

• 11:33Nancy Glass?

  In a dramatic moment, the courtroom fell silent as Kenny's lawyer leaned in and confronted him with a series of very tough questions.

• 11:42Speaker 19

  I want to take a minute to make sure that the jury understands your position, Mr. Hamp, on the various allegations that have been made against you over the years. Did you ever watch pornography with any of the children? Absolutely not. Did you ever sexually abuse your stepson in any way?

• 12:04Speaker 19

  Absolutely not. Did you ever physically abuse your stepson in any way? Absolutely not. Do you think your stepson was lying when he said that he'd been sexually assaulted?

• 12:17Speaker 18

  No, I don't. The children aren't lying. I believe that the father coached these children and convinced these children that these events actually happened to them.

• 12:27Nancy Glass?

  And then new and disturbing allegations were addressed.

• 12:32Speaker 19

  Did you ever drug either of the boys? Absolutely not. Did you ever shoot a dog in front of the children? No. Did you ever put hot needles in the boys? No.

• 12:50Nancy Glass?

  So you have to be wondering, where did this all come from? Well, in 2022, after two years of having no contact with Kenny, the boys made new allegations.

• 13:01Speaker 23

  The boys are saying that me and Cindy both beat him with a golf club. I broke his arm with a tire iron. I shot a dog in front of them and buried it. We were taking hot needles and stabbing them in the backs.

• 13:18Speaker 23

  We were making them eat out of the garbage.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Never had any of this ever been said before. So you can see the impact of having these children with that dad and that stepmom.

• 13:30Speaker 23

  I mean, they just kept on going and going and elevating it to a whole new level.

• 13:34Speaker 03

  This is a great example of how children can be so thoroughly manipulated to say

• 13:42Speaker 03

  flat out lies.

• 13:46Nancy Glass?

  And while testifying, Kenny got emotional recounting his arrest and overnight stay in jail.

• 13:52Speaker 18

  Being put in jail for something like that is very scary. And I was very concerned because it's probably the most horrific crime that you could ever possibly be accused of or do. It lasts and follows you for the rest of your life. I'm living that. I'm an innocent person. I didn't do these things. I don't know how to ever get rid of it besides fight it. And that's what we're here for.

• 14:20Nancy Glass?

  Kenny's lawyer asked a very important question. Did Kenny believe Steve was the cause of his injuries and damages in this case?

• 14:30Speaker 18

  I don't believe. I know because every single thing he's done has been on purpose, purposeful, manipulative. He's been egregious in every single way he's handled this. I'm suing for what this has cost us, which is not only our soul, but a whole hell of a lot of money. I'm not asking you for a dollar amount. It's not up to me. I want to be made whole. I've been destroyed. I've been completely ruined. I've been wronged and I want to make it right.

• 15:02Nancy Glass?

  After a long day and a half of testimony, Kenny's time on the witness stand was over. Here's his lawyer, Chris Decker, again.

• 15:10Speaker 15

  As nervous as he was, he did really, really well. He answered every question definitively, honestly, and I believe the jury was moved by his testimony.

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• 19:14Nancy Glass?

  The week Cindy and Kenny were in Hawaii, Steve took his sons to see multiple doctors and medical providers. The first was the boy's pediatrician, Dr. Sheila Fountain. Voice actors will read from court transcripts.

• 19:29Speaker 19

  Dr. Fountain, did you see anything in the physical examination that would be grounds for reporting to the Department of Human Services?

• 19:39Speaker 27

  Just his history.

• 19:41Speaker 19

  But in terms of a physical examination, nothing?

• 19:44Speaker 27

  Correct. He had a normal exam.

• 19:48Speaker 19

  Did he ever tell you that Mr. Hamp sexually abused them?

• 19:52Speaker 27

  He did not.

• 19:54Nancy Glass?

  But Dr. Fountain still contacted DHS based on the pictures Steve showed her and what Steve said. Here's Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker.

• 20:04Speaker 15

  Steve told Dr. Fountain these kids had been exposed to pornography. One of the children had been watching gay porn with Kenny Hamp, that there were sexualized behaviors that had gone on involving Kenny Hamp. At trial, Dr. Fountain said that had she not been told this false history of sexualized behaviors, she would not have made a referral to the Department of Human Services or the diagnosis of potential sexual abuse.

• 20:41Nancy Glass?

  The jury also heard from the sexual assault nurse examiner who examined the boy. She testified that she didn't see anything in her physical exam that would indicate sexual assault. And like Dr. Fountain, the nurse made a report to DHS based on information Steve gave her.

• 21:01Speaker 19

  Did anything you saw with your own eyes during the physical examination require that report?

• 21:08Nancy Glass?

  No.

• 21:09Speaker 19

  It was what you heard with your own ears that was concerning?

• 21:13Nancy Glass?

  Correct. The nurse testified that Steve informed her that Cindy and Kenny exposed the children to pornography, and that's what initiated her report to DHS.

• 21:29Nancy Glass?

  Later that same week, Steve took his son to two different hospitals, including an emergency room three hours from their home. The jury heard from a social worker at that hospital. A voice actor will read her testimony.

• 21:44Speaker 22

  They were requesting a forensic interview to be conducted by myself.

• 21:49Nancy Glass?

  The social worker explained that Steve was adamant, but the hospital's policy was that forensic interviews are never done in the ER.

• 21:58Speaker 22

  The emergency department, as people can imagine, is a pretty chaotic environment, and it's not necessarily conducive to being able to have a safe environment, especially for a child, to talk about really challenging and difficult things. And also, we just don't have the bandwidth.

• 22:16Nancy Glass?

  The social worker testified that she primarily spoke with Steve, who also wanted his son to have a scope. She was asked about that procedure.

• 22:27Speaker 22

  It is similar to like, a colonoscopy, where you have a device that is inserted rectally to see what's happening along the GI tract. The thing that stood out for me in that interaction was the belief that this medical intervention would tell the patient's story.

• 22:45Nancy Glass?

  Kenny's lawyers then called an expert witness. She explained how the DHS abuse findings were overturned.

• 22:55Speaker 25

  Overturned means the finding entered by the county was not supported by a preponderance of the evidence, or that there was new information obtained by the State Department throughout the appeals process that caused the state to believe that the finding was not supported by a preponderance of the evidence.

• 23:11Nancy Glass?

  In reports like this, they aren't looking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. They're just looking to prove that it's more likely than not that the allegation is true. And when the state reviewed this case, they had serious doubts about the original findings and overturned them. The witness testified how rarely that happens.

• 23:32Speaker 25

  It is very significant. In my practice, achieving an overturned finding on an appeal is nearly impossible. It's hardly ever done.

• 23:41Speaker 23

  They said that this assault never happened on these children. There was no sexual abuse. There was no physical abuse. Nothing was there. But Steve was saying in court that I abuse the children physically and sexually.

• 24:01Nancy Glass?

  Steve and Christine's lawyers said this was not a campaign against Kenny. They were concerned parents who believed their children could be in danger. And when Steve took the witness stand, he was asked why he didn't seek medical attention for his son that weekend in Las Vegas. Voice actors will read from court transcripts.

• 24:22Speaker 19

  After learning about your son being in pain, you made the decision not to take him to a doctor on Friday night, correct? That is correct.

• 24:34Nancy Glass?

  Instead of taking his son to seek medical care, Steve took photos that night.

• 24:39Speaker 17

  If my children receive an injury, I'll take a picture. I have four children. I'm busy. So I want to be sure that I can see the progression. So I took a photo.

• 24:51Nancy Glass?

  But Steve took more than one photo. He took five. It seemed like he had help, too. The photographs also showed another adult helping position the child so Steve could document the area he believed was injured.

• 25:05Speaker 19

  And after taking these five photographs, you continued to stick with your initial decision that no doctor was necessary at that point? Yes. At that time, yes.

• 25:20Nancy Glass?

  And then, they pointed to what else was happening that same weekend. According to testimony, right after Steve took the first photo, he posted a picture to Facebook of his son jumping on their hotel bed. Then, almost an hour later, he would take the rest of the photos. Questioning also focused on the family's activities that weekend, including a visit to the hotel pool.

• 25:47Speaker 19

  You went to the pool with your son, who you believed had an open sore? Correct. You said that your son didn't go into the water.

• 25:59Speaker 17

  Correct. What I was trying to do, I bought the boys rafts to go on the lazy river, and he was just not emotionally in a place that he could do much of anything. But my point, sir, is that you ride an inner tube in the water. You're certainly in the water. We were not swimming, but there was no intention to get him into the pool. I was trying to have fun.

• 26:23Nancy Glass?

  It was testimony that made no sense to Cindy.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. You take a kid that you think is injured to the water park of all places? I mean, that doesn't make any sense either.

• 26:35Nancy Glass?

  The jury also heard about what Steve did and did not communicate to Cindy while the family was still in Las Vegas. They presented a message Steve sent to Cindy about a week or so before the Vegas trip. In it, Steve said that if there was ever an emergency involving the children, he would notify her, and that he would not intentionally keep something important from her about the kids. But Steve didn't keep his promise to Cindy. Throughout that weekend in Vegas, he never mentioned anything about their son being in pain. In fact, when Steve and the kids returned from Vegas on Sunday, he took another photo of his son's bottom.

• 27:20Nancy Glass?

  And then, about 90 minutes later, Steve messaged Cindy.

• 27:24Speaker 19

  And in the message, you say, "The boys are making a quick trip to Denver after school for an educational experience. They will not be missing any school." Do you see that? I do. Okay. And you would agree, sir, there's no mention of an injury? I agree. No mention of photographs being taken? Correct. No mention of any concern? Correct. Instead, you're planning your next few days, including driving the boys down to Denver and back in one night?

• 28:00Speaker 17

  It wasn't really planning my day. I was letting her know that the boys were going to go down for an educational experience, and they could be reached on Christine's phone.

• 28:13Nancy Glass?

  Cindy believed that was further proof that their son was never injured.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Something's not making any sense here, because that's a three-hour, one-way drive. But that already tells me there's nothing wrong with these kids when they get back from Vegas, because he's already planning his next kid event.

• 28:30Nancy Glass?

  Kenny's lawyers then focused on what Steve said at the boys' appointment with his pediatrician, Dr. Fountain.

• 28:40Speaker 19

  And you told the truth to Dr. Fountain that day, didn't you? I believe that I did.

• 28:46Nancy Glass?

  Steve was asked why he told Dr. Fountain that his young daughter watched porn with Kenny on several occasions. Steve blamed Dr. Fountain.

• 28:56Speaker 17

  Dr. Fountain was not taking contemporaneous notes. It's a mistake. I didn't say that. Dr. Fountain is a fantastic physician. I have tremendous respect for her. People make mistakes.

• 29:09Nancy Glass?

  Steve also blamed the sexual assault nurse examiner for writing in her notes that Cindy and Kenny exposed all three kids to pornography.

• 29:18Speaker 17

  That's not what I said. That's not what I'm saying. Those are her notes, which were not taken contemporaneous when we were talking.

• 29:26Speaker 19

  So, again, it's an error on the behalf of the sexual assault nurse examiner?

• 29:32Speaker 17

  I believe it was a mistake.

• 29:34Nancy Glass?

  We'll get back to Steve in a bit. But first, I want to jump to testimony from Steve's mother, Alada. Cindy's lawyer asked Alada what her grandson told her that weekend in Vegas. A voice actor will read her testimony.

• 29:54Speaker 05

  He told me that Kenny had stuck something in his butt.

• 29:58Speaker 19

  And what was your reaction to that?

• 30:01Speaker 05

  Shocked. I was shocked. My mind didn't want to go there. As a grandmother, you don't want to believe that.

• 30:08Speaker 19

  Did you believe the boy when he said that?

• 30:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, I did, and I still do.

• 30:13Speaker 19

  When you met with Steve after that statement, did you tell him what his son said?

• 30:20Speaker 05

  No. How come? I don't know why I didn't.

• 30:26Speaker 19

  Did you tell Christine?

• 30:27Speaker 05

  No.

• 30:28Speaker 19

  How come?

• 30:30Speaker 05

  I don't know why I didn't.

• 30:32Speaker 19

  Well, respectfully, you're the grandmother, correct?

• 30:36Speaker 05

  Exactly, yes.

• 30:38Speaker 19

  And you care for the children?

• 30:39Speaker 05

  With all my heart.

• 30:41Nancy Glass?

  At the time, Alada was 78 years old. She spoke softly on the witness stand and, at one point, asked for a break because she was suffering from altitude sickness.

• 30:56Speaker 19

  And you've described what you believe to have been the boy in pain and walking in a very abnormal manner for a couple of days. Yes. Why didn't you mention that to your son?

• 31:09Speaker 05

  I don't know why I didn't. I regret it.

• 31:13Speaker 19

  And you felt that he was hurting, and he was crying, correct?

• 31:18Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:19Speaker 19

  And yet, nobody took him to a doctor. Is that right?

• 31:24Speaker 05

  That's correct.

• 31:25Nancy Glass?

  Less than a week after Alada said her grandson told her Kenny abused him, she, Steve, and Christine went to the Steamboat Springs Police Department. That's when Alada made a statement to Detective Cypher's. You heard this recording in Episode 4.

• 31:44Speaker 13

  [BLEEP] told me that Kenny had put something hard in his behind. And [BLEEP] told me it felt like it, his body was getting ripped apart. And I said, [BLEEP], you need to... Speak to people that can help you. I said, your dad has done everything that humanly possible to try to re- try to help you through this, but you're going to have to speak up and use your words.

• 32:20Nancy Glass?

  Cindy's lawyer asked Alada why she encouraged her grandson to speak up, even though Alada kept quiet.

• 32:29Speaker 05

  I don't know why I did that. I'm a grandmother. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a police officer. I'm just his grandmother.

• 32:36Nancy Glass?

  Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker, found Alada's answer to be suspicious.

• 32:42Speaker 15

  No grandmother would hear that. Something has been placed in his bottom. And then keep it a secret from the parent of the child, particularly if that child, as she said, was in constant discomfort that whole weekend.

• 32:58Nancy Glass?

  The jury also heard the recording of Alada telling Detective Cypher's this.

• 33:05Speaker 13

  Nobody told [BLEEP] to say these things. Nobody.

• 33:10Speaker 13

  These are [BLEEP] his words, and I swear to that. I will take a lie detector test. What ever needs to be done.

• 33:17Speaker 13

  These are his words, but he's not coached. Right.

• 33:23Nancy Glass?

  Alada testified that she didn't mislead the detective and that Steve had no idea what she was going to say to him. But that didn't add up for Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker.

• 33:34Speaker 15

  They claim that that was the first time they had heard it.

• 33:39Speaker 15

  But that's clearly not the truth because Steve and Christine had absolutely no reaction on the tape recording of this.

• 33:51Nancy Glass?

  So let's talk about their reaction. In the video of Alada sharing this uncomfortable news with the police, Steve rubbed his thumb along his cellphone case and Christine, she simply stared at Alada. And the video does not show any obvious verbal response from either Steve or Christine. Kenny's lawyers argued that Steve and Christine's subdued response suggested the information was not new to them.

• 34:22Speaker 15

  We believe that's evidence that they went in there to feed this detective through the grandmother more false information.

• 34:31Speaker 15

  Their conspiracy here was transparent.

• 34:36Nancy Glass?

  But Steve testified that he was horrified when his mother shared this news.

• 34:42Speaker 17

  I couldn't believe it. I saw my response. I was rubbing my head. I became fidgety. Yes, I was processing it.

• 34:51Nancy Glass?

  There were a lot more reactions from Steve in that video. And once they were played for the jury, Steve had a tougher time explaining himself.

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• 36:51Speaker 06

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• 37:29Speaker 07

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• 37:45Nancy Glass?

  Steve is on the stand, and Cindy and Kenny's lawyers are playing more recorded reactions from Steve. Here's Detective Cypher's explaining how he planned to charge Kenny with child abuse.

• 37:59Speaker 14

  It's the highest misdemeanor that can be charged. It's not the sex assault that I think, you know, that I want to try and get.

• 38:09Nancy Glass?

  And Steve's reaction to the detective's words stood out to Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker.

• 38:15Speaker 15

  Steve is happy. He says, I could effing hug you. And what really stood out to me is his reaction, his joy at hearing that.

• 38:28Nancy Glass?

  And then they played more from that same video. This time, the jury heard Kamala Hite, the DHS worker, talking with Steve. It isn't easy to hear Steve's response because he talked over Kamala, but listen to his reaction.

• 38:46Speaker 24

  I want to interview Cindy and talk to her and interview Kenny and see what's, you know, see what they have to say about this stuff.

• 38:52Speaker 21

  It'd be easy to find him. Sorry, I'm going to have to use some humor because you made my fucking name, brother. Like, you're on the Christmas card list right now.

• 39:01Speaker 15

  He says, I could hug you. You're going to be on my Christmas list. It's just very strange, and that doesn't add up with how a parent would be reacting to hearing that there is probable cause to believe that their child had been physically and/or sexually abused. That's not something anyone would be happy about.

• 39:27Nancy Glass?

  There's more from that recording. In fact, about 30 seconds after telling Detective Cypher's he would effing hug him, Steve made a joke to the detective.

• 39:38Speaker 21

  Have you ever had an arrest warrant on a white chick before? I had not. We got to laugh a little bit. This will be a first. It really will.

• 39:46Nancy Glass?

  Here's Cindy's lawyer questioning Steve about his reactions. Voice actors will read from court transcripts.

• 39:54Speaker 19

  Why are you saying he's on your Christmas card list after he tells you he's going to put Mr. Hamp in jail?

• 40:02Speaker 17

  I appreciated that Detective Cypher's was doing his job to keep our community safe and remove child offenders off the street.

• 40:10Nancy Glass?

  Cindy wasn't buying Steve's explanation.

• 40:14Speaker 03

  Most parents, if their kids were truly, truly abused physically or sexually, would not be behaving that way. Like, the whole thing would be a more somber moment. But he was enjoying it.

• 40:31Nancy Glass?

  Earlier, you heard from a social worker at a Denver hospital who testified how Steve was adamant his son get a forensic interview and a scope. Steve was asked about that.

• 40:44Speaker 17

  What I recall saying is that my son believed that,

• 40:49Speaker 17

  this is one of the saddest parts of the story,

• 40:53Speaker 17

  is that if they inserted the scope, it would play a movie of what happened to him so he wouldn't have to say someone he cared about hurt him.

• 41:01Speaker 19

  Well, it's not that he would have to say something about somebody he cared about, sir. It's that he doesn't know what happened to him, and he's hoping that the scope will tell his story.

• 41:13Speaker 17

  I completely disagree with that. Statement. I believe he knows exactly what happened to him. Because you told him, sir? I disagree with that.

• 41:23Speaker 19

  So you continue to seek a scope after this date? After a social worker told you it wouldn't be able to tell you what happened?

• 41:30Speaker 17

  I continued to seek medical care, which part of that could be a scope? Yes.

• 41:35Speaker 19

  There was no scope performed on your son ever, correct? Correct. Because it was never medically necessary or appropriate?

• 41:44Speaker 17

  Isn't that right? I would assume that to be the case if it didn't happen.

• 41:53Nancy Glass?

  By the time of Steve's testimony in November of 2023, over four years had passed since the judge took away Cindy's parenting time. In an emotional exchange on the witness stand, Steve's lawyer asked him how difficult it was to file that motion. His testimony is read by a voice actor.

• 42:15Speaker 17

  It was the most difficult decision I have ever made because I will have to account to the children. I'm taking their mother away, or the court is. But it was hard.

• 42:28Nancy Glass?

  Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker, found Steve's answer to be disingenuous.

• 42:33Speaker 15

  He said with tears in his eyes that the most difficult day for him was having to go back and get custody of these kids because, you know, he wanted the mother of his children in their lives. And that was the hardest day of his life. And what he was saying didn't make sense.

• 42:51Nancy Glass?

  It didn't make sense when you compared that to a question Kamala Hyde from DHS asked Steve. You heard that in episode three.

• 43:00Speaker 15

  Kamala asked him the question, you know, if I had a magic wand, what would you want?

• 43:08Speaker 24

  If you could wave a magic wand today, what would you want?

• 43:13Speaker 23

  Full custody of the children.

• 43:17Speaker 15

  So when he says in the interview that if he had a magic wand, he would get full custody, yet at trial, he testifies that this was the hardest decision of his whole life to seek full custody. And he started crying. It didn't make any sense. It was completely manufactured.

• 43:38Nancy Glass?

  Steve was asked about the magic wand comment.

• 43:42Speaker 19

  Sir, you wanted full custody. You wanted full decision making. Isn't that right? I wanted to keep my children safe. That wasn't my question. Do you remember my question?

• 43:54Speaker 17

  I do. And you're talking about the magic wand statement.

• 43:58Speaker 19

  So you wanted full custody and full decision making? If you're waving a magic wand. Well, the purpose of a magic wand, sir, is to give you what you want, isn't it?

• 44:10Speaker 17

  That's not how I interpret it. If I just, if it was magical. I don't believe in magic, unfortunately. That's not what you said in the video. That I don't believe in magic? Right. I'll testify today, I don't believe in magic.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  He will do anything to avoid answering a basic yes, no question. It'll drive you insane. Several times, the judge had to redirect him and say, please answer the question.

• 44:44Nancy Glass?

  There was another witness that was perhaps the most important to Cindy and Kenny's case, the district attorney, Matt Carzen. The very DA who had brought the felony child abuse charges against Kenny was called to the witness stand. DA Carzen testified that Steve's involvement in the case was unlike anything he'd ever seen before. A voice actor will read his testimony.

• 45:11Speaker 16

  It's not just somebody saying, I want 20 years in prison, and it's a misdemeanor. This was, you know, I want felony prosecution. I want felony level sex offense prosecution. That stuff comes with mandatory prison sentences.

• 45:27Nancy Glass?

  DA Carzen noted how aggressively Steve was trying to get his office to prosecute Kenny. Steve even hired a separate attorney to handle the interactions with the DA's office.

• 45:39Speaker 16

  I mean, on a scale of one to 10, if the normal involvement of parents in a case of child abuse is out of five, this was easily a nine. It was as much as I've ever experienced.

• 45:50Nancy Glass?

  The district attorney also testified about an early meeting he had with Steve. At the time, the DA was running for reelection.

• 46:00Speaker 16

  What stands out is a comment that Steve made to me right at the beginning of the meeting. If you can put a felony charge on Hamp, I would make a big donation to your campaign for DA. Words to that effect. I don't know if that was the exact wording, but that's what he said.

• 46:15Nancy Glass?

  We talked to DA Carzen and asked him about that very moment.

• 46:21Speaker 20

  He laughed immediately. It was a joke, but it made me very uncomfortable. I felt like that was a very strange sort of thing to say. Certainly wildly inappropriate, arguably prosecutable.

• 46:37Nancy Glass?

  DA Carzen said Steve's campaign contribution joke put him on edge immediately. As for the case itself.

• 46:47Speaker 16

  New allegations were coming in, a lot. And the source was usually Steve reporting that one of the boys has this new piece of information or said this new thing. That was unusual. That's not something I have seen very often.

• 47:01Nancy Glass?

  But what Steve was reporting didn't match up with what the children said in their forensic interviews. Instead, at least one of the boys attributed things to their dad, Steve.

• 47:16Speaker 16

  When asked, why do you think that? The answer on a few occasions was essentially because that's what my dad told me. Or Kenny did this to me. Why do you think that? Because my dad says that's what he did. Or who did this to you? Well, it was probably Kenny. So that evolving reporting from the kids, coupled with the behavior of Steve, started to make me really nervous about what was going on here. I remember specifically sort of landing in a place where, like, I don't know what happened here. I don't know if somebody is trying to get the kids to frame Mr. Hamp. I didn't know what was going on. The only thing I was certain of

• 47:56Speaker 16

  is that I didn't have any reliable sense of what did or didn't happen to the kids anymore.

• 48:03Nancy Glass?

  Well, at that meeting Steve had with the DA, after he dropped the charges against Kenny, the DA said something strange, and it was caught on tape.

• 48:13Speaker 20

  I have no doubt those children were victimized criminally by Kenny Hamp and/or Cindy. None. In my 25 years of experience, everything tells me that's true.

• 48:25Nancy Glass?

  On the tape, the DA blames Cindy and Kenny, which was the opposite of his testimony in court. So why did the DA do that? Who recorded their conversation and why? That tape recording would cause both sides to go on the defensive.

• 48:43Speaker 20

  If you want to record the conversation, just tell me you're doing it.

• 48:47Nancy Glass?

  That's next time on Burden of Guilt.

• 49:14Nancy Glass?

  Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying Burden of Guilt, subscribe, rate, and review the series with five stars, hopefully. That helps other people find our show. Are you curious about what the people involved in this look like? Do you want to hear bonus content? Just check out our Instagram account at Glass Podcasts. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at [email protected]. That's [email protected]. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

• 49:56Nancy Glass?

  This series is executive produced and hosted by me, Nancy Glass, produced by Todd Gans, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Additional production support provided by Carrie Hartman. Thank you to our voice actors, Dan Dietz, James Palumbo, Trey Morgan, Tanner Robbins, Beth Bane, Tim Perez Ross, Kaitlin Golden, and Sydney Gladue. Our story editor is Monique LaBord. Our associate producer is Jade Abdul Malik. Our production manager is Kristin Mulkey. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychak.

• 50:39Nancy Glass?

  Audio editing by Dean Welsh. Audio mixing and mastering by Anna McLean and Matt Del Vecchio. The Burden of Guilt theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app or Apple Podcasts. Apple Podcasts.

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