Pod Insights Burden of Guilt Redemption | BONUS | Season 2 About this episode In this bonus episode, Nancy Glass joins the Burden of Guilt team for a candid conversation about Bobby Gumpright, Jermaine Hudson, and the complicated reality of forgiveness. It’s a behind-the-scenes look at how this story changed the people telling it, too.
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Transcript 2,590 words · 12 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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1:04 Speaker 03 Hey folks, it's Matt Altmaix.
1:05 Speaker 04 And Joel Larsgaard.
1:06 Speaker 03 From the How To Money Podcast. If you travel for work like I do, you know that every trip is an opportunity to get more from the miles that you are already earning. Whether you are heading to your next client meeting or catching a flight home, those miles can go a long way. And for a limited time, new Delta SkyMiles Business Card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offered this year, with a Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express Card. Apply today at delta.com/podcast. Offer ends November 4th. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.
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2:42 Speaker 07 Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman, producer of season two of Burden of Guilt. Today, associate producer Jade Abdul Malik and I are very excited to talk with Nancy Glass. As you know, she's the host and executive producer of our series. But this show was a team effort. Jade, Nancy, and I have been producing this show together for almost a year. For us, this story raised a lot of questions about forgiveness in our own lives. So we got together as a team to talk about it. So Nancy, you had real apprehension. I mean, we were in the office and you were concerned about meeting Bobby Gumpright and him walking into our studios. Knowing the story, having read all about the story
3:26 Speaker 07 and what happened in court, what he did to Jermaine, and you've literally interviewed, I would say, some of the most heinous criminals in recent memory. I can think of one in particular. Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer. Bobby, for sure, did something that many would deem unforgivable, but he didn't kill anybody. What about him coming in to the studio made you feel uncomfortable?
3:55 Nancy Glass? Well, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag. I mean, we're all attracted to a really good story. But we feel responsibility to these people who give us their story. And, you know, when you read what happened to Jermaine, your heart is so broken. That I was afraid to meet Bobby. I thought, oh, what's this guy gonna be like? Jermaine had lost so much of his life. It makes you really angry, except that he wasn't angry. So you also have to respect his point of view. And as you pointed out, I've interviewed a lot of people who have done bad things, a lot.
4:36 Nancy Glass? And when they say they are remorseful, you don't believe it for a second. They've got excuses and you know, there's something wrong with their psychopathology. So Bobby made me nervous because I thought, this is a bad guy who did a bad thing. And then, when I met him, I realized, he did a bad thing, but he's not a bad guy. He's an ordinary guy who made a terrible decision, influenced by drugs, which is not an excuse, and he certainly doesn't make excuses.
5:17 Nancy Glass? It was pretty obvious from the beginning that he was really remorseful.
5:22 Speaker 07 Were there any questions that you asked him that he just refused to answer?
5:28 Nancy Glass? No, he was completely open. Not only did he answer everything, one technique a lot of people use is, they completely go in another direction. So you kind of forget the question and you follow that other direction. He didn't. He stayed in the moment, no matter how painful it was. He teared up a few times. It, you know, it was tough for him. And yet, he wanted to tell the story.
5:55 Speaker 07 Jade, I was also curious about your response. You came in a little bit later, when we had already established a connection there. And I know that you have deep interest in the prison system. And it's something that you want to spend part of your career working on investigating. You were always friendly and professional with Bobby. What was going on in your head, though?
6:20 Nancy Glass? Were you nervous, like I was, to meet him? Were you nervous about how you felt about him?
6:25 Speaker 09 I wasn't nervous. I was prepared to be angry. I was prepared to not be able to handle myself professionally. I was prepared to be pissed off. I was prepared to have these really disrespectful thoughts. But I was... The anxiety I was feeling was more so about how can I contain my negative emotions in this professional setting, rather than I'm about to meet someone or converse with someone that did a really terrible thing and that I assume is just a terrible person through and through.
6:55 Speaker 07 And what do you think of him now?
6:57 Speaker 09 I really do admire Bobby because he owns every part of his mistake.
7:03 Speaker 07 Yeah.
7:03 Speaker 09 He owns every part of his wrongdoings. All the transgressions that he's imposed on other people's lives. Not just Jermaine's, not just his family, but also himself.
7:15 Speaker 07 Yes.
7:15 Speaker 09 And I think that goes a long way. I don't think the Bobby that he is today would recognize the person that he was 20-something years ago and vice versa. And I think there's been an incredible transformation with so much evidence that it's hard to dislike him. And it also helps that Jermaine sees the goodness in him too and chose to forgive him.
7:38 Nancy Glass? And wants the best for Bobby.
7:39 Speaker 09 Exactly.
7:40 Nancy Glass? Like, he didn't have to call Bobby and say, "Listen, you gotta get it together. You gotta do this right." And he did. I mean, Jermaine is... He's a spectacular person. He really is. And he has brought out the best in Bobby. And when I say the best, it's qualities I don't think Bobby knew he had. And he does. What about you, Carrie? Were you nervous? What did you think? Because you're the one who talked me into doing the story.
8:09 Speaker 07 I wasn't nervous because I had spent, literally, hours on pre-interviews with him. And I had the same experience that you did, Nancy, which is he didn't deflect any questions. He never made an excuse. And he would only participate in a podcast if Jermaine would participate as well. Like those were the only, the only ground rules he had was it's up to Jermaine. I will not do anything without his blessing. It's all about Jermaine. So I felt pretty confident that the person he was on the phone, he would be in person as well.
8:50 Nancy Glass? What did you leave out of the podcast that you would still like to share with people?
8:55 Speaker 07 There was one thing where Jermaine's daughter Jeremia describes Bobby coming to their home for the first time. And Kristen is very welcoming and you heard this in the last episode where Kristen's like, it's over. She hugs him. She welcomes him into their house. And Jeremia said, he was crying. And I'm like, what is he crying about? What is he crying about? I should be the one crying. You said something funny when we talked last time. You said that Bobby was crying and you were like, what are you crying?
9:28 Speaker 00 Right, like I did, I did. I said, what are you crying for? Like, why are you crying? Like, all of us should be the one crying. You, you, you crying your eyes out. Why? You know, like, why are you crying so hard? And it wasn't to be, it might have came off as me being mean or harsh or something. But that was my intention. I just was looking at him like, what you crying for? Like, you know, like, what you crying for? Like, you know, the damage is done.
9:52 Speaker 07 Of course she was polite and she followed her dad's lead. But not everybody in Jermaine's circle is healed. And that's not something we really address. But when she's like, what are you crying about? I, that did make me chuckle that she's making wisecracks about it and still dealing with it.
10:13 Speaker 09 Yeah, I would agree. I was thinking of like when Bobby was invited to the home for the first time. When Bobby parked outside of the door on the driveway, he had a moment to himself, he prayed to himself, and he saw Jermaine approach the car and they walked in together. And so I think that's just a testament to how unified these men are in going through this journey together, knowing how nuanced forgiveness really is. And it doesn't always look the same. Sometimes forgiveness, people will be like, I forgive you, don't talk to me again. Or I forgive you, but there are very strong boundaries that I put in place
10:57 Speaker 09 to protect my heart. And sometimes forgiveness is also, let me welcome you into my home because you're not just a friend to me, you're family now. I want you to be a part of every milestone from this day forward. That's, I don't know, I could do that with someone that's taken 22 years of my life.
11:16 Nancy Glass? You know, the thing about forgiveness is, like I said to somebody very close to me, you need to forgive someone who did you wrong, not for him, but for you. And the reply I got was, I don't. I'm not going to, and I don't. And you know the part that's for me? I won't. I'm not forgiving. And I was like, I talked to a therapist about it. I'm not saying that I'm in therapy, but I am. And she said, yeah, she said, you know what? He's right. Doesn't have to forgive.
11:55 Speaker 09 So it just shows that it's like so noble to make and a hard choice to make, too.
12:03 Speaker 07 Okay. The last thing I wanted to bring up was staying on the forgiveness track for a second.
12:09 Nancy Glass? Yeah.
12:09 Speaker 07 Has it challenged anything in your own life? So when Jermaine was speaking, a lot of times I was thinking about experiences with people who I have walked away from for various reasons. Sometimes the reasons were pretty valid. Sometimes they were more petty. And if this man can forgive somebody who took all those years away from him, why do I hold on to these grudges that I hold on to? And I wondered if any of that came up for you?
12:42 Nancy Glass? Well, I don't hold grudges because it's like what I used to say to my kids about jealousy. It's a wasted emotion. That other person doesn't know. They have no idea what's going on in your head. And I don't want to pay rent for the space that person is taking up in my head. Jade?
12:59 Speaker 09 Yeah, there have been several instances where those feelings were coming up for me, where I would feel bitter about friendships that went astray for whatever reason, miscommunication. And selfishly, I would always feel like, okay, I need to get the final word on this because I need you to know how you've wronged me, how I'm in the right and you're in the wrong. In some ways, working with Jermaine and Bobby has made me realize like that part doesn't matter. And it's really important for us to hear stories like these so that we have a
13:37 Speaker 09 wealth of information of like what's possible for humanity. And how can we be better people in our daily lives and how we show up in the world at large?
13:49 Speaker 07 Jermaine is somebody I feel like I'm gonna know forever. And
13:53 Nancy Glass? Yes, and Bobby.
13:55 Speaker 07 You know, and Bobby, like they kind of feel like part of our Glass Podcast family now.
14:01 Nancy Glass? Yeah.
14:01 Speaker 07 Thanks so much, you guys. It was really great to talk about these things that we talk about offline.
14:08 Nancy Glass? I know, really, what's the difference?
14:10 Speaker 07 There's no difference, but it was really fun to share a little bit with the audience. So thanks.
14:16 Nancy Glass? Definitely. Thank you.
14:19 Speaker 03 Hey folks, it's Matt Altmaix.
14:21 Speaker 04 And Joel Larsgaard from the How To Money Podcast.
14:23 Speaker 03 If you travel for work like I do, you know that every trip is an opportunity to get more from the miles that you are already earning. Whether you are heading to your next client meeting or catching a flight home, those miles can go a long way. And for a limited time, new Delta SkyMiles Business Card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offer this year with a Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express Card. Apply today at delta.com/podcast. Offer ends November 4th. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.
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15:51 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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