The Warring Queens | Rivals | 1

Mary Queen of Scots has everything: beauty, charm, royal blood and a claim to the most powerful throne in the world. There's just one tiny problem... Her cousin Elizabeth I. This is the story of two queens, one throne, and a decades-long struggle. Protestant against Catholic, cousin against cousin. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:07Matt Forde?

  A warning that in this episode, we say some terrible words like [BLEEP] and [BLEEP]. So you may not want to listen with children. Okay, Alice, this series is uniquely challenging because it is effectively trilingual.

• 0:19Alice Levine?

  Oh, wow, okay.

• 0:21Matt Forde?

  We've got English.

• 0:22Alice Levine?

  Yep.

• 0:22Matt Forde?

  French.

• 0:23Alice Levine?

  Yep.

• 0:24Matt Forde?

  And Scottish. So as well as all the accents, I've been brushing up on my vocab. So do you mind just testing me?

• 0:31Alice Levine?

  Okay, so apple juice.

• 0:33Matt Forde?

  Okay, the French would be, uh, jus de pomme.

• 0:37Alice Levine?

  Perfect.

• 0:38Matt Forde?

  Uh, the Scottish is, e en bleu.

• 0:42Alice Levine?

  Exactly. Great, one for one. Um, all right, let me think. Uh, feeling ill.

• 0:47Matt Forde?

  Okay, um, French would be, uh, la nausée. And I think the Scottish is, ah, pure gives me the book mine.

• 0:55Alice Levine?

  You really have been working hard, yeah. Okay. And finally, a silly or stupid person.

• 1:00Matt Forde?

  I think the French is, uh, buffon. And I think the Scottish is, yah we plaqué.

• 1:11Matt Forde?

  8th of February, 1587. Fotheringay Castle, Northamptonshire, England. Mary Stuart halts at the top of the grand hall staircase. An icy chill cuts through her veins as she looks down at the wooden stage that rises two feet high and 12 feet square. Mary clutches her rosary beads in one hand, tightens her fist around the ivory crucifix in the other, mutters a prayer under her breath to calm her nerves. Profida catholica morior.

• 1:48Matt Forde?

  Then she descends the stairs. Her 44-year-old legs, swollen with rheumatism, make every step a challenge. But Mary is determined to get through her last moments with dignity.

• 2:02Alice Levine?

  Forty-four.

• 2:04Matt Forde?

  This is the 1500s.

• 2:05Alice Levine?

  Fine.

• 2:06Matt Forde?

  In old money, she's basically ninety.

• 2:08Alice Levine?

  Yeah, fine. Just struck a nerve.

• 2:10Matt Forde?

  Struck one of those trapped nerves you've got next to your varicose veins. You old git.

• 2:15Alice Levine?

  I cannot stress enough, my age starts with the three, and no more questions at this time.

• 2:20Matt Forde?

  She swallows her fear as she nears the scaffold and sees the axe resting against a rail. The two masked executioners in black and white stand ready. A quiet calm descends over the sea of English spectators as Mary comes to a halt. She bites her lip, fighting back tears. Mary whips her head as the cry from one of her loyal ladies pierces the hall. She feels a stab of fury as she's reminded of the injustice of all this. Before she can stop herself, she turns and hisses at the blank-faced English lords who surround her. I will not go to my death this way without my own servants.

• 3:03Alice Levine?

  Now, wait a sec. What I'm about to say is not a comment on your accent, which is obviously a weekly topic of convo, but she's French.

• 3:11Matt Forde?

  Yes, Mary, Queen of Scots, spent her formative years in France, came back to the UK when she was eighteen, so she had a very strong French accent. Mary watches one of the earls step forward, his voice tight. Madam, that cannot be granted. One of them might seek to wipe their napkins in your blood. I will not take another step without them. Mary knows she's causing a scene, but she doesn't care. She refuses to go to her death surrounded by heretics. She watches as the earls huddle together. Finally, one gives a curt nod. Mary feels a rush of relief as her ladies gather around her.

• 3:52Matt Forde?

  She approaches the stage, her eyes meeting those of the dean, whose face is fixed in barely concealed contempt.

• 4:01Matt Forde?

  Madam, you stand before us charged with treason against Queen Elizabeth. We pray for your soul and the- Mary cuts in. Save your Protestant prayers for someone who wants them. She watches his face, reddened in fury. Madam, repent your wickedness. Mary looks down at her robe. Hidden beneath it is her final act. A wave of calm washes over her. She needs to say no more words in protest. Because Mary has one last card to play. One last way to strike at the heart of her enemies and bring down her filthy, treacherous cousin Elizabeth, once and for all.

• 5:23Speaker 02

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• 5:53Speaker 03

  Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi. Because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get background play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. So try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. That's a mouthful.

• 6:25Matt Forde?

  From Audible Originals, I'm Matt Ford.

• 6:28Alice Levine?

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 6:29Matt Forde?

  And this is British Scandal, the show where we bring you the murkiest stories that's ever happened on these odd little isles.

• 6:35Alice Levine?

  British scandals come in many shapes and sizes. Some are about money, some are about sex. They're all about power.

• 6:42Matt Forde?

  But when we look at scandals a bit closer, they turn out to be stranger, wilder, just plain weirder than we remember.

• 6:49Alice Levine?

  So we're journeying back to ask, who's to blame for what happened?

• 6:52Matt Forde?

  And when the dust settled, did anything really change?

• 7:05Matt Forde?

  Alice, this series, I'm bringing you a very special sort of rivalry.

• 7:10Alice Levine?

  Hmm.

• 7:12Matt Forde?

  A female rivalry.

• 7:13Alice Levine?

  Oh, female rivalry. Why will they not just be friends? Okay, so let me think about this. Peggy Mitchell versus Pat Butcher?

• 7:22Matt Forde?

  No, great choice.

• 7:23Alice Levine?

  Um, I wanna say Camilla versus Diana, but kinda done it.

• 7:27Matt Forde?

  Yes.

• 7:28Alice Levine?

  Ooh, what about All Saints versus Spice Girls?

• 7:31Matt Forde?

  That would be brilliant. And that arguably is the biggest in British history.

• 7:35Alice Levine?

  I'm looking through the glass, we should do that.

• 7:37Matt Forde?

  But this, dare I say it, is arguably more important than All Saints.

• 7:41Alice Levine?

  Wash your mouth out.

• 7:44Matt Forde?

  We're going back a long way. This is two royal cousins that are both queens in the same country.

• 7:51Alice Levine?

  Okay, you've got my attention.

• 7:52Matt Forde?

  So this is the great British scandal of Mary, Queen of Scots, and Elizabeth I.

• 7:59Alice Levine?

  Yes, this is juicy. Okay, I've obviously seen some films, I know some stuff, but give me the headlines.

• 8:04Matt Forde?

  I mean, in a way, it is the posh versus ginger of the 1500s. It could have been their nicknames. The two ambitious women, both after the crown, there's a menage a trois, we've got murders, explosions, love, family betrayal, and more importantly, and just for you, Alice, slutty men and massive penises.

• 8:23Alice Levine?

  Yes, finally, someone on production is reading my emails, thank you.

• 8:28Matt Forde?

  This scandal is the one that tore the entire country apart and almost brought down the English crown. This is episode one.

• 8:39Matt Forde?

  Twenty-six years earlier. August 1561. Edinburgh, Scotland. Eighteen-year-old Mary sits astride her horse. She clutches its reins as Holyrood Palace looms ahead. The young queen gasps at its hundred-foot tower house with its circular turrets. It's thirteen years since she last saw it, and she feels a swell of pride at the crowd lining her approach. She lifts her hand to check her oar and curls, then prepares to meet her subjects. But as Mary nears the palace gates, her smile freezes. You French bitch! French whore! You French bastard! He-! I'll eat you! You horrible tempest! Her pulse quickens

• 9:23Matt Forde?

  as she takes in the expressions of twisted rage. She digs in her heels, cracks her whip, and gallops through the crowds and into the palace to safety.

• 9:35Matt Forde?

  Mary catches her breath as she dismounts. The palace steward approaches.

• 9:42Matt Forde?

  Your Majesty, welcome to Holyrood. Mary eyes him furiously. What is the meaning of this vile populace? Your Majesty, your brother can explain. Mary peels off her riding gloves. She wants her private chambers. Privacy. Heir. But her half-brother has been ruling in her absence. She needs to show her face. She nods curtly

• 10:12Matt Forde?

  and follows the steward through the grand entrance hall and into the council chamber. Mary's stomach lurches at the sight of a long table seating a dozen men. Her brother is not alone. The men are all unwashed, bearded. Some have missing teeth. She's never seen such a motley crew. My lords...

• 10:34Matt Forde?

  She straightens up to her full five foot eleven, steadies her gaze on her brother. Dear sister, I regret the disturbance that greeted you, although I imagine you expected opposition. Mary is sure she catches two of the Lord's smirking. Her eyes drift to the walls. The tapestries are wrong. Gone are the Catholic saints. In their place hang dull cloth. Dread starts to settle in her stomach. She knows Scotland has changed in her absence. Last year, greedy Protestants, spurred on by the English, stripped her country of its rightful Catholic order. But grief has a way of narrowing the world.

• 11:17Matt Forde?

  She's been so consumed with the loss of her husband. Since Francis died, she's given little thought to what this revolution has done to her homeland. But I had hoped my people might welcome their queen, even a Catholic one.

• 11:36Alice Levine?

  Okay, wow, lots going on. Firstly, the tapestries have changed. Can someone look into that? Because it looks bloody terrible in here. Secondly, she's eighteen and her husband's died. What? And also, everyone hates her.

• 11:47Matt Forde?

  Okay, so when she was fifteen, she married Francis the Second of France, and she lived in luxury as the Queen Consort of France.

• 11:53Alice Levine?

  At fifteen? Okay, sure.

• 11:55Matt Forde?

  So while she's over there, married in her teens, Scotland has a full-blown revolution. So the Protestants, encouraged by the English, the evil English, changed the religion of the country without asking her. They tore down the churches and they took the land. Mary's mother had died, so Norm was in charge. Back in France, Mary's husband, Francis the Second, he dies. They think of an ear infection.

• 12:18Alice Levine?

  Bloody hell.

• 12:19Matt Forde?

  Always get it checked. She then returns to Scotland, where she's now a Catholic queen in a Protestant country that didn't really want her. And it's easy now to go, oh Catholics and Protestants, they're basically all Christian. I mean, it's still, parts of Ireland and parts of Scotland are still riven by the sectarian issue. This is 500 years ago, and this would have been the single biggest divide of the time. You're French, you're a teenager, you're a woman, and you're now in the wrong religion.

• 12:46Alice Levine?

  Best of luck.

• 12:48Matt Forde?

  Mary watches as her brother shuffles on his feet. If Scotland is to avoid full civil war and renew tensions with England, there are concessions you must consider. Mary's chest tightens. Such as? Well, a public abandonment of your faith. Absolutely not. Mary stares at him, incredulous. You have grown too accepting of this situation. Sister, it would appease the rebels while sending a clear message to Queen Elizabeth that you are no threat to England. Mary can hardly believe his cowardice. In France, she won over the most hostile French diplomats and courtiers with her beauty and charisma.

• 13:34Matt Forde?

  She will do the same with Elizabeth, without compromising her beliefs. Elizabeth is her cousin after all. She places her hands on the table, takes in the dumb expressions of her councillors. I will not dance to Elizabeth's tune. I will make her dance to mine.

• 13:53Matt Forde?

  And Mary knows exactly how to do it.

• 14:00Matt Forde?

  August 1561, Whitehall Palace, London. Queen Elizabeth pulls her horse to a halt, laughing. Elizabeth smiles as Robert Dudley wraps his hands around her waist and helps her to dismount, his touch lingering. Elizabeth waves away her courtiers. I need only Lord Dudley. The rest of you may go. Elizabeth giggles as Robert yanks her into the stable.

• 14:30Matt Forde?

  She runs a finger along his long moustache and down his neat goatee, then leans in for a kiss.

• 14:37Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth's eyes snap open. I must speak with Her Majesty. To Elizabeth's dismay, Robert nervously pulls away from her. You should go. Elizabeth scowls. She's loath to cut short the only fun she's likely to have all day. She's had a turbulent three years on the throne, re-establishing Protestant rule. It's bad enough listening to her council's constant warnings of the Catholic threat to England, without having to hear Scotland's ambassador drone on about his troubles too. Elizabeth pulls Robert close again, eyes him playfully. My bonnie sweet Robin, there's no rush. Elizabeth sighs as Robert looks unsure.

• 15:20Matt Forde?

  You would deny your queen? I should punish you in the harshest way. She playfully raises her whip, as the stable door slams open. Your Majesty. Elizabeth jerks away from Robert, as the Scottish ambassador's puffy red face appears in the doorway. Please forgive the interruption, Your Majesty. Your cousin Mary has sent word. Elizabeth's heart thuds. She's never met her younger cousin, and has been anticipating her return with trepidation. She pledges her devotion to you, and promises not to disrupt the reformation or the peace between our countries. She's also sent a gift, her portrait. Elizabeth feels a rush of relief. I must see it.

• 16:06Matt Forde?

  In the great hall, Elizabeth breathlessly studies the portrait propped on an easel. She takes in Mary's delicate features with a mixture of admiration and envy. Her cousin's hair is a deeper tone than her own orange locks, bringing out her amber eyes. She is every bit as beautiful as they say.

• 16:26Alice Levine?

  Obsessed with him! He is an absolute sleaze bag!

• 16:31Matt Forde?

  He's an Elizabethan horn dog. Elizabeth turns to see a sheepish look appear on Robert's face. Well, of course, she has nothing on you, Your Majesty. Elizabeth ignores the eye roll from the ambassador. She refuses to be bullied. Elizabeth's romance with Robert might be an open secret, but she has no intention of ever making any man her husband. She knows marriage will only weaken her position in the eyes of the people.

• 16:59Matt Forde?

  A bit like being in a boy band.

• 17:00Alice Levine?

  Go on.

• 17:01Matt Forde?

  Because once they've got girlfriends, they're not attainable anymore and then people stop going to see them at the NEC or whatever.

• 17:05Alice Levine?

  So you're saying people need to be able to imagine themselves going out with Queen Elizabeth?

• 17:11Matt Forde?

  Well, kind of in a way. And her whole brand was the Virgin Queen. So even though she is having it off with Dudley, she's not publicly admitting that. And she's a woman in the 1500s. So the moment she marries a man, you then got a king who then really becomes more powerful than her. So it's a way of retaining her individual power and also playing off some of these fellows against each other.

• 17:36Alice Levine?

  Ultimate bachelor.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  Your Majesty, it would be remiss not to mention that Mary still practices Catholicism. That's her devotion.

• 17:46Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth snaps back. I am sure, like me, she simply wishes for a sisterly alliance between two queens.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Your Majesty, even if that's true, the Catholic rebels already see her return as an opportunity to stir up resistance to your rule. In some quarters, she is seen as the rightful heir to your throne. Mary's Tudor blood threatens all that has been achieved these past three years.

• 18:11Alice Levine?

  Okay, well, that's a relief. So they can just be pals.

• 18:14Matt Forde?

  Well, maybe, but they are two very different people. Mary is way more impulsive. She's got Tudor blood. Lots of the rebels think that she's actually the real queen. And as Dudley will attest, she's quite good looking. So if she finds a man and has a baby, that child would be a Catholic with a claim to the English throne. And that would terrify Protestant England because that would then be a threat to Elizabeth's sovereignty. So Elizabeth has the throne, Mary has the blood. So that is why Mary is such a threat when she returns back to the island. A chill runs down Elizabeth's spine as she recalls the difficulties she's overcome.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  I advise caution, Your Majesty, and that we resume discussions about securing your own position with a strong political marriage and ear.

• 19:03Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth stiffens as she catches Robert's eye. No, Mary is my blood. I have no reason to doubt her.

• 19:13Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth turns back to the portrait. She can't allow herself to believe Mary is playing her. It would mean sacrificing too much. Instead, she will ensure her cousin becomes a loyal friend, not a deadly enemy. And that starts with reminding Mary that she can share in Elizabeth's riches, as long as she continues to maintain this deference to herself and to Protestant rule.

• 19:43Matt Forde?

  October 1561, Holyrood Palace, Edinburgh.

• 19:49Matt Forde?

  Mary kneels in her private chapel, eyes closed, hands clasped around her rosary. Ave Maria, gratia plena. Mary could do with some divine guidance. She's only been back in Scotland for two months, but since then, violence has broken out across the country. The Protestants have been seeking to strengthen their position at court, and she's even had to strip one Catholic Earl of his title to appease them. She flinches at the sound of footsteps. She wishes she'd taken her secretary's advice to have a guard with her at all times. She refused, fearing she would look weak. She bows her head, determined not to let her paranoia interrupt her prayers.

• 20:33Matt Forde?

  But she jumps to her feet as a high-pitched shatter fills the chapel. She ducks behind her prayer desk, peers out to see a smashed stained glass window crash down onto the chapel's marble floor, lying in shards. In its centre, a charred object illuminated by the moonlight.

• 20:54Matt Forde?

  She gathers her skirts, crouches down, stares at the object.

• 21:00Matt Forde?

  It's a small, half-burned idol of the Virgin Mary. She feels herself stiffen as she collects it in her hands. Her fear replaced with anger as she takes in the delicate face, blackened with charcoal.

• 21:15Matt Forde?

  Mary gently turns it over to find 'Memento Mori' scratched into the dark wood, then drops it, before she too falls to the cold floor.

• 21:28Alice Levine?

  We're so fluent in Latin now from British Scandal that we both know that that means...

• 21:33Matt Forde?

  Remember you must die.

• 21:35Alice Levine?

  Exactly.

• 21:36Matt Forde?

  We just Googled it.

• 21:39Matt Forde?

  An hour later, Mary paces her private quarters. She feels utterly violated. Can she not even find sanctity in her private chapel? She glances up to see her secretary approach, curtly waves him away.

• 21:55Matt Forde?

  Forgive me, Your Majesty, but I come with a reply from Elizabeth. Mary feels a rush of adrenaline as she focuses on the small box he holds out on a tray. She rips the letter beside it open. It brings me great joy to know we share not only blood, but also the unique burden of ruling as women. Mary sits down and reads on. I propose that we think of ourselves not as rivals, but as sister queens. United, we could be a powerful force. I send a symbol of the unbreakable bond I hope we can forge. Mary opens the small box. She gasps as she takes in a ring with a large diamond that's been fashioned into the shape of a heart. She stares at it, transfixed.

• 22:41Matt Forde?

  It is so generous, so beautiful. Your Majesty, may I suggest that your cousin may need your friendship as much as you need her.

• 22:54Alice Levine?

  Yeah, I wonder if she's gone a bit big as she kind of told on herself there, because the portrait was sort of a token, whereas this almost feels like payment.

• 23:02Matt Forde?

  It's too much. Work your way up to a big diamond heart. Start off with a Hotel Chocolat H-Box.

• 23:08Alice Levine?

  A Praline log.

• 23:11Matt Forde?

  Mary feels the weight of the wooden Virgin Mary in her skirt pocket as she twists to look at him. She fingers the ring and feels a frisson of excitement as she starts to realise he might be right. Her cousin is not as strong as some would have her believe. Elizabeth has no blood sister, nor does she have a husband or child. But if she were to officially recognise Mary as her heir, it would silence every Protestant rebel in Scotland. Mary stares back at the ring. Friendship is no longer enough. If sisterhood is what Elizabeth wants, she must prove it. By naming Mary as England's next queen.

• 24:01Alice Levine?

  Okay, so no more Mr Nice Mary.

• 24:03Matt Forde?

  Yes, so Mary's thinking is shifting here because at first she was out on a limb. She's Catholic, she comes back and Scotland's gone Protestant. She's kind of deferential to Elizabeth. But now that Elizabeth is making these grand gestures, it's obviously occurring to her that she has a huge amount of power because she needs to be placated just in case she becomes the leader of some sort of rebel movement. If people see her as the real queen, that gives her a lot of influence over people. So in this moment, she realises she can push for way more than she was prepared to settle for.

• 24:35Alice Levine?

  So she's basically gone from having no relationship with Elizabeth to now feeling like she could actually make a bid for the crown.

• 24:45Matt Forde?

  Two months later, December 1561, Whitehall Palace, London. Elizabeth storms into her council chamber and stares down at the secretary seated at the long table. What could be so urgent that I had to cut short my morning ride? She glares at her senior adviser William Cecil. He nervously clears his throat. Your cousin Mary has written. She wishes to meet to discuss being named as your successor. Elizabeth feels winded. Successor? The adviser pushes the letter across the table towards her. Elizabeth's heart sinks as she scans Mary's neat writing.

• 25:28Matt Forde?

  She knows this will push the matter of her own need for an heir to the top of the agenda. She must shut that idea and any threat from Mary down now. I am happy to hold such a meeting. Elizabeth watches as the men exchange panicked glances.

• 25:45Matt Forde?

  Your Majesty, the Catholic zealots are stirring across Europe. To even negotiate with Mary would... Send the wrong message to my subjects. The English people know I am wed to them only. They love me for having no other focus than their needs. They are also fickle, Your Majesty. If they turn, they may fix on Mary. Elizabeth bangs her fist on the table. I don't have to name her. And any danger she poses will be contained if I meet her and give the impression I am considering the idea. She won't be cowed or manhandled by her advisers. Have the arrangements made. Elizabeth pushes her chair back and stands.

• 26:31Matt Forde?

  But as she does, she's hit by a wave of nausea. She tries to steady herself by gripping the table, but her hand slips. The room starts to spin around her. Your Majesty, Elizabeth! She starts to see small black dots, and then, complete darkness. As the room tilts and her legs give way. Your Majesty!

• 26:57Matt Forde?

  Then, nothing.

• 27:04Matt Forde?

  Your Majesty? Your Majesty? Your Majesty? Can you hear me? Elizabeth slowly pushes her eyelids open.

• 27:14Matt Forde?

  Her physician's features fill her vision. Beside him, Cecil moves into view, his face etched with relief. Your Majesty, thank God. Elizabeth realises she's in her bedchamber. Throat dry, she whispers... What happened? Smallpox. You were delirious with fever. It's been seven days. Elizabeth blinks as she tries to take in what she's being told. I was gone... A week! Elizabeth feels a chill run down her spine. She remembers glimpses of her last moments, her last conversations. Mary, successorship.

• 27:59Matt Forde?

  She leans forward and is sick into a bucket. If she had died with no named successor, England would have descended into chaos. Mary. Yes, Your Majesty. Rumors say she's been in talks with Rome to strengthen her position by taking a Catholic husband. I fear dark clouds are gathering. Elizabeth squeezes her eyes shut. She knows she cannot close her mind any longer, not with England's future at stake. She will need to do whatever it takes to put the succession issue to bed, once and for all.

• 28:46Speaker 05

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne?, I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne? wherever you get your podcasts, and you

• 29:31Speaker 05

  can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  In the summer of 1881, US Army

• 29:48Speaker 04

  Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and twenty-four other men embarked on an ambitious scientific mission to the northernmost reaches of the Arctic. But despite several triumphs of discovery, the men would soon face tragedy. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, after Adolphus Greeley and his men arrive at their destination more than 1,000 miles above the Arctic Circle, they get to work collecting scientific data and exploring the frigid landscape. But when resupply ships fail to reach them two summers in a row, they're forced to set out on a desperate search for rescue, and not all of them will make it home.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Follow American History Tellers wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American History Tellers: Greeley Arctic Expedition early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 30:54Matt Forde?

  June 1562, Hampton Court, London, England. Elizabeth wrinkles her nose as her lady in waiting dabs her face with ointment, the pungent aroma hitting her nostrils. "What is this?" "Ground snails, rosewater, and chicken fat, Your Majesty." Elizabeth tries not to gag as her lady rubs it in to remove her pox marks. Yesterday, she drank a tonic made of crushed pearls. The day before, her maids were instructed to hold dead pigeons against her sores.

• 31:27Alice Levine?

  "A 1500s pigeon? You don't have small pox, but you are about to die."

• 31:33Matt Forde?

  "You've got rabies."

• 31:39Matt Forde?

  "Master Daddley is here, Your Majesty." Elizabeth's heart flips at the sight of him as he rushes towards her. "My gracious lady, I've been worried sick." Elizabeth instinctively covers herself with her veil. Robert gently holds her hand. "Please, I must see your face." Elizabeth studies his expression. She allows Robert to lift the fabric and sees only tenderness in his eyes. You are as beautiful as ever. Nothing could ever stop me loving you. Elizabeth dismisses her ladies and forces herself to her feet. My body, sweet Robin.

• 32:23Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth's heart sinks as he smiles lovingly. She hasn't invited him here to play. She squeezes shut her eyes as she tries to ready herself for what she has to say. Every day I am told of Catholic plots to capitalize on my lack of an heir. And now Mary is searching for a husband. She takes in Robert's angry expression. She must be stopped. Yes, and I have a way. Elizabeth feels her heart break as Robert's face relaxes back into a smile. She looks away, walks to the window. She panics as he steps forward, takes her hand. Elizabeth, it would be my honour, my delight to...

• 33:09Matt Forde?

  She looks at him horrified, pulls her hand away. Dear Robert, no. She sees a flicker of confusion on his face. I intend to offer Mary a match myself. A Protestant who I know will always protect my interests. Someone who I trust absolutely. In return for naming her my successor.

• 33:34Matt Forde?

  She lowers her eyes before she places her hands on either side of his face. And there is only one man I can trust enough to stay loyal. Her stomach knots as she goes on. You.

• 33:50Alice Levine?

  Now this is a slap in the face when you thought you were being proposed to.

• 33:54Matt Forde?

  Yes, I love you too, but could you nip up to Scotland and talk my cousin?

• 33:59Matt Forde?

  She feels sick as Robert pales before her eyes. Her hands fall as she pulls away. What? I cannot marry you. I will marry no one. I will never have an heir. But if you marry Mary, your children can one day take my throne. It will be a political alliance. One that unites England and Scotland. Dudley starts backing away. No, how could you even think of giving me to another?

• 34:32Alice Levine?

  This is, even for the time, quite a kooky call. I mean, I know that she doesn't want a hubby, she wants to be sole ruler. But this, this is pretty nuts, isn't it?

• 34:41Matt Forde?

  It is. Multiple motivations here. One, obviously, is this political reason. We already knew that she didn't want to get married for another political reason. But also, Robert had been married before and his ex-wife died in suspicious circumstances. She was found dead at the bottom of the stairs and there had been blows to the head that many thought hadn't come from the fall. There were no witnesses and Robert was already having it off with Elizabeth. So he was already a scandalous individual.

• 35:08Alice Levine?

  Okay, so he's a murderer. Yep, I can see that. It's a PR nightmare. I'm being told to say allegedly. I know he died a long time ago, but I believe his estate are incredibly litigious.

• 35:18Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth feels herself wavering, but she can't let her emotions overtake her. At least this way, she can know both his and Mary's every move and keep herself free for the times he can visit her alone. She stiffens her body, forces a cold expression. "I am asking you to put duty first, to think of me as your queen, not your lover." Elizabeth knows she must keep going until she's convinced Robert to make the ultimate sacrifice, for the sake of queen and country.

• 36:02Matt Forde?

  Two months later, Holyrood Palace, Edinburgh. Mary sits on her throne and rests her eyes on the portrait her adviser holds of a stern-faced nobleman in elaborate dress. "Archduke Charles of Austria, Your Majesty. A good match, brother to the Holy Roman Emperor." Mary recoils at the weak chin and hooked nose. "I'd rather kiss a hog." Next. Mary is finding the search for a husband increasingly tiresome, but she cannot give up. Elizabeth's silence since her illness is deafening, and the rebels in Scotland are becoming increasingly violent.

• 36:44Matt Forde?

  She must strengthen her position and take matters into her own hands. The adviser holds up another portrait. Don Carlos, heir to the Spanish throne, Catholic, skilled swordsman. Tell me more. Mary leans forward, studies his chiselled features. This one seems less of a dolt. He did have a fall recently and suffered a head injury. There have been some questions about his temperament ever since, but in every other way. Mary looks up as the English ambassador enters. He holds aloft a letter. Your Majesty, I bring a proposal from Queen Elizabeth. Mary straightens.

• 37:29Matt Forde?

  I had begun to fear the ink had run dry in England. She wishes to oversee your match personally, to ensure the mutually beneficial alliance. In return, she will resume succession talks. Mary grips her throne. Who does she have in mind? Mary stays on him, a look of concern on his face. Lord Robert Dudley. Mary is certain she's misheard. Her compagnon? When the ambassador nods, her voice rises in anger. The men suspected of murdering his wife? Mary shakes her head in disbelief.

• 38:11Matt Forde?

  She's about to declare it outrageous when she sees her adviser carrying in the next portrait. A portly man with facial warts. Mary's shoulders slump. Entertaining this request will at least reopen the possibility of succession. She turns back to the ambassador. Tell Elizabeth I would be delighted to host Lord Dudley and discuss the matter further. She ignores the surprised looks from the ambassador and her advisers. She will play along for now, but if Elizabeth thinks she will marry Robert Dudley, she's sorely mistaken.

• 38:49Alice Levine?

  Robert Dudley just being passed from pillar to post. Every queen in the land being like, no, I'm not going to marry him, no.

• 38:56Matt Forde?

  Also, passed from pillar to post in a really rickety horse and carriage. It took him days to get up to Scotland. She says no, he's like, right, back down to England.

• 39:06Matt Forde?

  Turning up with a fractured spine, oh what?

• 39:09Alice Levine?

  And that spine is already probably impaired.

• 39:15Matt Forde?

  December 1562, Holyrood Palace, Edinburgh.

• 39:21Matt Forde?

  Robert Dudley yanks his horse's reins, slowing its pace as Edinburgh's grey stone buildings come into view.

• 39:29Matt Forde?

  He pulls his sable cloak tight around his shoulders and recoils at the sight of men brawling in the muddy street below. Their faces caked in dirt, their drunken voices raised. What a godforsaken country. Robert feels a stab of despair. He's still furious that the woman he loves intends to marry him off. That he also has to travel to this backwater where he's surrounded by wild haired brutish lords is almost too much to bear.

• 40:00Matt Forde?

  He intends to be so rude to Mary that she'll reject him within hours. He can return to the country and woman he loves.

• 40:09Matt Forde?

  Robert dismounts and follows a servant into the palace, wrinkling his nose at the man's stench. He enters the grand hall, fixes his expression to one of disdain and readies himself to meet Mary.

• 40:25Matt Forde?

  But as she appears at the end of the long hall, his eyes widen. Lord Dudley, welcome to Holyrood. Mary's portrait doesn't do her justice. She's nearly as tall as he is and her auburn hair gives her pale skin a translucent glow. He opens his mouth to greet her, but finds he's unable to speak. Is something troubling you?

• 40:52Matt Forde?

  Too fit, Your Majesty.

• 40:54Alice Levine?

  Excuse me?

• 40:55Matt Forde?

  Chuffing Nora.

• 40:58Matt Forde?

  Robert quickly bows in the hope she doesn't see his cheeks flushing. He tries to ignore it and gently brushes his lips against Mary's hand. Your Majesty, I, that is Queen Elizabeth, sends her warmest regards. How kind of her to spare you from her side. He notes the pointed edge to her tone. The image of Elizabeth's face fills his head. He quickly adopts a more dismissive demeanor. She thought we should become acquainted. I really had little choice.

• 41:34Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth speaks highly of you, though I confess, I struggle to see what makes you such an exceptional candidate. No royal blood? Robert's jaw tightens. He puffs his chest. I am more noble than many men I know. Of course. Robert feels his cheeks burn as Mary cuts him short. Exchanges smiles with her ladies in waiting. He's used to women falling over themselves to please him, not this indignity. I thought you might enjoy some light entertainment this afternoon, perhaps a play or some lute music. Robert balls his fists. He refuses to let her diminish his manly attributes any further.

• 42:20Matt Forde?

  Actually, Your Majesty, I was hoping for something more vigorous. I'm told deer hunting is one of your favorite pastimes. Robert sees a flicker of amusement. It is, but I wonder if you have the skin for such pursuits, if your stamina is up to the challenge. Robert fights to contain his outrage. I assure you, Your Majesty, I am more than capable of keeping it up.

• 42:50Matt Forde?

  Are we still talking about what I think we're talking about? I feel like we're talking about something else. But I'm happy to pursue it.

• 42:56Alice Levine?

  It's also so easy. She's like, you got the stamina? And he's like, I have!

• 43:01Matt Forde?

  I can go all night.

• 43:04Matt Forde?

  I'll have my servants prepare the horses. Robert holds her gaze. He may be taken by her beauty, but he won't let her best him. He's going to prove he's worthy of a queen, even if Mary isn't his first choice.

• 43:27Matt Forde?

  That afternoon. Mary feels the cold air whipping her face as she leans low over the horse's neck and races through the forest. She glances back and grins at Robert falling behind. He's a decent rider, but some exceptional. In fact, she's found nothing about him exceptional. But with succession talks resumed, she's happy to indulge in this charade.

• 43:54Matt Forde?

  Mary slows her horse. Thirty yards ahead stands a magnificent stag, perfectly framed between two birch trees. Mary reaches for her crossbow. She silently pulls the wire into place and takes aim.

• 44:12Matt Forde?

  The stag drops before Mary can release her bolt. Wheeling her horse around, she gasps at the sight of Robert lowering his own crossbow. He must be at least fifty yards behind her. She's never seen a shot like it. Lord Dudley! My apologies, Your Majesty. It was too good a chance to resist. Mary rides back to him. She studies Robert's face with new interest. You are full of surprises. He flushes, pleased despite himself. She takes in the firmness of his jaw beneath his goatee, the twinkle in his eyes. Perhaps this man won't be as tedious as she thought.

• 45:02Matt Forde?

  That evening, Mary watches Robert cross the Great Hall, cutting a striking figure in a gold doublet, decorated with pearls and white velvet hose. She's all too aware of her ladies-in-waiting, eyeing him approvingly. Your Majesty, would you honour me with a dance?

• 45:22Matt Forde?

  Mary places her hand in his. Her heartbeat quickens, as he pulls her to him, and leads her confidently through the intricate steps. She starts to wish this man really were a viable option. You dance well, though, Dudley. Though that shouldn't surprise me, given your proximity to the English court. You're referring to the rumours about myself and my queen? Mary hadn't expected him to be so direct. She hesitates before responding in kind. Yes. Are they just rumours? There was a flirtation once. But Her Majesty has made her position clear. She is married to England. I have long accepted that.

• 46:06Matt Forde?

  Mary watches his face, but he doesn't blink. She looks behind him, at her usually stern-faced Protestant councillors, their eyes fixed on them with hopeful expressions. She starts to realise, this man could help present a united Protestant-Catholic front that would silence even her most critical lords and the rebels. Lord Dudley... Uh, Robert, please. Robert. I wonder if you might extend your visit? There's so much more of Scotland I wish to show you. Mary notes a flicker of surprise cross his face. For a fraction of a second, she regrets letting her cool mask slip.

• 46:49Matt Forde?

  Then he places a gentle hand on her waist, and she can't deny the butterflies in her stomach. I would be delighted. Mary Beans. Robert may well be the key to getting everything she wants. Instead of rejecting him, she's going to grab this opportunity with both hands and marry him.

• 47:18Matt Forde?

  You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon.

• 47:30Speaker 06

  You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you. There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and the Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead.

• 48:15Speaker 06

  The president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.

• 48:54Matt Forde?

  January 1563. The Great Hall, Hampton Court, London. Elizabeth stares through the window, her anxiety growing with the gathering darkness. She looks across at the untouched banquet spread across the oak dining table, at the musicians sitting idly in the corner. It's the perfect night she planned, except for one thing: Robert isn't here. What time is it now? Her lady-in-waiting checks the clock. Nearly ten, Your Majesty. Elizabeth's brow furrows. Robert should have returned hours ago.

• 49:36Matt Forde?

  Her stomach tightens as she pictures the disasters that could have befallen him. He could have been thrown from his horse, attacked by Catholic bandits at the border.

• 49:45Alice Levine?

  We're shacking your cousin.

• 49:46Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth freezes, then rushes to the doorway as Robert appears, breathless, his face flushed from the cold. Eyes! Thank God! I apologize, Your Majesty. Elizabeth bristles at the formality of his tone. Mary and I lost track of time. She insisted on one last hunt, and then her ladies organized a rather wonderful farewell feast. Elizabeth's discomfort grows as Robert smiles. Somehow, she procured my favorite peacock thighs. I didn't know they had such a thing in the wilds.

• 50:27Alice Levine?

  Do you want drumstick? You can have wing, or do you want peacock thigh?

• 50:32Matt Forde?

  Yeah, and have you got any hot sauce? Elizabeth glances at the untouched platter behind her. Aware of the servants, she keeps her voice low and steady. So you decided Mary's happiness should take precedence over mine?

• 50:49Matt Forde?

  She wills Robert to reassure her, but instead his tone hardens. "Under your orders, Your Majesty. How would you have me behave?" Elizabeth's cheeks burn, as jealousy overwhelms her. She can't stop her voice rising. "Certainly not like a common lecher, who only thinks with his pistol." Elizabeth hears her serving wench gasp. She knows she's being unreasonable, but she can't help it. She curtly dismisses her staff and folds her arms. A moment later, to her relief, Robert moves closer. "My sweet lady, you sent me there to court Mary. That's all I did."

• 51:34Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth feels her anger subside. "Fortunately, she made it an easier task than I could have wished. Her welcome was most warm." Elizabeth's stomach drops. "You talk like a man in love." "No." Elizabeth turns away, as hot tears fill her eyes. Seconds later, Robert's hands are on her. "The only woman I love is you." Elizabeth shakes her head. "The engagement is off. This cannot happen." She bites her lip, as Robert moves into her eye line. Elizabeth knows that to back out now would humiliate Mary in front of her entire court, but can't bear to think of the man she loves, hundreds of miles away,

• 52:19Matt Forde?

  with Mary working her charms day after day. "If there were a way to stay closer to you, I would take it in a second." Elizabeth takes his hands, the germ of a thought sparking into life. And then, as she starts to realise... "Maybe there is."

• 52:44Matt Forde?

  Three months later, March 1563. Holyrood Palace, Edinburgh. Mary stands on a small platform, while her ladies fuss with her ivory gown. She excitedly twirls, gasping at the way the beautiful seed pearls of her bodice catch the light as she moves.

• 53:06Matt Forde?

  Scotland's ever seen, Your Majesty. Mary pulls them all in for an embrace, unable to contain her excitement. This engagement may have started as a means for political advantage, but she can hardly wait to see Robert again and gain a firm rule over Scotland at last.

• 53:24Alice Levine?

  They have turned this wedding around, haven't they? Three months later. I guess you do have a whole court of servants to put this on for you. You've basically got about fifty wedding planners at your disposal. And I can't imagine they're like, "The palace is booked up. If you want a summer one, it is gonna be tricky."

• 53:40Matt Forde?

  Yeah, we are redoing the lawn then.

• 53:42Alice Levine?

  I'll behead you. Yeah, I think we can fit you in.

• 53:45Matt Forde?

  Mary looks up to see the English ambassador marching towards her. Your Majesty, forgive the interruption. I bring news from Queen Elizabeth regarding the wedding arrangements. Mary watches him hesitate, then shuffle uncomfortably. She darkens. What is it? She feels a rush of nervous energy as he eyes her sheepishly. Queen Elizabeth has made arrangements for your transport to England immediately after the ceremony. Ships are being prepared at Leith. Transport to England? Her eyes narrow as the ambassador studies his feet. It's all detailed in the wedding contract, Your Majesty.

• 54:27Matt Forde?

  Queen Elizabeth thought a move to England would be best, Lord Robert being an Earl. I'm sure his estates are very impressive, but they can hardly compare to a palace. Mary stays on the ambassador, who now looks up, hopeful. Of course, Your Majesty. Queen Elizabeth would never suggest she expects you and Lord Robert to live with her at her court. Mary is winded. She shuffles away from her ladies in waiting, lowers her voice. Elizabeth wants me, a queen, to live in her household as what, her pet? No, as her beloved cousin and, irpresumptive, as her... subordinate?

• 55:12Matt Forde?

  Mary feels her whole body stiffen. This was never about finding her a suitable match or securing her succession. Elizabeth wants to limit her power, make her dependent, and she wants Robert to remain in her bed.

• 55:32Alice Levine?

  Are we talking a kind of Tudor threesome?

• 55:36Matt Forde?

  We have to make this clear. Elizabeth wasn't suggesting that they all do it at the same time.

• 55:39Alice Levine?

  Mmm, a twosome and a twosome.

• 55:41Matt Forde?

  Exactly, it's two twosomes. And, and obviously, poor old Robert would only agree to that for his country.

• 55:47Alice Levine?

  He's a pawn in this pawn.

• 55:50Matt Forde?

  She slams her fist on the windowsill. You will return to my cousin and tell her this marriage is off. She watches the colour drain from the ambassador's cheeks. Your Majesty, you, you must reconsider. If you reject this match, you will anger Queen Elizabeth beyond repair. Any talk of succession will be finished. Mary feels herself waver as the words hit home.

• 56:17Matt Forde?

  She would be throwing away everything. But the humiliation is too great. Then so be it. Now get out.

• 56:27Matt Forde?

  Mary stands shaking. Then her eyes move to the diamond ring on her finger. Elizabeth's symbol of their unbreakable bond. She rips it off and hurls it across the room.

• 56:41Matt Forde?

  She studies her bare hand. Then she straightens up. Get this damned dress off me. Her ladies freeze. And get me portraits of every eligible prince, duke, lord and king in Europe. Mary feels a surge of adrenaline. She will find a husband on her own. Someone who won't just strengthen her power in Scotland. Her days of trying to play nice with Elizabeth are over. There can only be one queen. And now Mary's going to take what's rightfully hers. England.

• 57:26Matt Forde?

  From Audible Originals and Samistat Audio, this is the first episode in our series, Mary, Queen of Scots.

• 57:33Alice Levine?

  A quick note about our dialogue: in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.

• 57:41Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read The True Life of Mary Stuart by John Guy, Rival Queens by Kate Williams.

• 57:50Alice Levine?

  And if you'd like to get in touch with us, you can email us at [email protected], and we love hearing from you.

• 57:56Matt Forde?

  British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.

• 57:58Alice Levine?

  And me, Alice Levine.

• 58:00Matt Forde?

  Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford.

• 58:04Alice Levine?

  Our story editor was James Maniak. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer was Jai Williams. For Samistat, our series producer was Chica Ayers. Our assistant producer was Louise Mason. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitzina. Executive producers for Audible were Theodora Leludis and Estelle Doyle.

• 58:34Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 59:18Alice Levine?

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things

• 1:00:02Alice Levine?

  that come back to haunt us. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.