The Brink's-Mat Heist | The Golden Rule | 2

Brian Perry’s living the high life with new girlfriend, Jackie, spending millions on property. The trouble is, everything he has, he’s stolen from best mate Micky. And Micky won’t stay in the dark forever. Listen to British Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting https://wondery.com/links/british-scandal/ now. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:12Matt Forde?

  Alice Management said you wanted a word.

• 0:15Alice Levine?

  Yeah, so I've been reading the emails on [email protected] and one thing just keeps coming up over and over. So I just thought, I'll just lance the boil if that's all right. People feel like your cockneys all sound the same. So I thought we'd just have a go at kind of making them differentiated, if that's all right.

• 0:34Matt Forde?

  Yeah, I mean, I thought I was already, but yeah, sure.

• 0:37Alice Levine?

  OK, so you've got a line there. Maybe we could try angry.

• 0:41Matt Forde?

  You ain't got nothing on me, you mag.

• 0:43Alice Levine?

  Fantastic. Old?

• 0:45Matt Forde?

  You ain't got nothing on me, you mag.

• 0:48Alice Levine?

  Great. Sad?

• 0:49Matt Forde?

  You ain't got nothing on me, you mag.

• 0:52Alice Levine?

  Female?

• 0:53Matt Forde?

  You ain't got nothing on me, you mag.

• 0:55Alice Levine?

  I honestly don't know what they're talking about. You've got such range.

• 1:01Matt Forde?

  January 1985, Kenneth Noye's mansion, Kent. Kenny Noye clicks on his torch, tries to keep his breath steady as he steps out into the cold night air. Someone has spooked his three rottweiler dogs, and he needs to find out who. He makes his way through the trees of his 20-acre estate, feels a trickle of sweat run down his back as he shines his torch out into the night. He glances back at the brightly lit windows of his mock Tudor mansion. Words already got out, he's smelting Brink's Mat Gold here. Every criminal in London would love to get their hands on it.

• 1:44Matt Forde?

  He calls the dogs to his side, listens for movement.

• 1:49Matt Forde?

  He takes a few steps forward, but there's nothing.

• 1:54Matt Forde?

  Whatever set off the dogs is gone.

• 1:58Matt Forde?

  He freezes at the sound of a twig snapping behind him. He turns slowly. His eyes widen as a silhouette emerges from the darkness. A man dressed in black, wearing a balaclava. Kenny feels his chest tighten. He snatches his knife from his belt.

• 2:19Matt Forde?

  "Who the fuck are you?" But the man doesn't speak. He just stares straight at him. Kenny feels a surge of rage. He pulls back his arm, hurls himself forward, and stabs the man in the chest. The man buckles, sinks to his knees, then collapses back. Kenny watches his red blood seep into the white snow. He grabs the man's balaclava. He's about to rip it from his head when he hears a radio crackle.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  "Unit two, request status update."

• 2:50Alice Levine?

  "No, no."

• 2:53Matt Forde?

  It's coming from the man's belt.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  "All units A.M., all units A.M."

• 2:58Matt Forde?

  His stomach lurches as he realizes. He hasn't attacked a rival criminal. He's just stabbed a copper. He looks up as blue lights flood the garden. He lets the bloodstained knife drop from his hand. He's got seconds to run. If he's caught now, he's finished. And the whole Brinksmatt Circle will come crashing down with him.

• 3:29Speaker 03

  A dark night, a quiet house, but inside, danger was lurking.

• 3:33Speaker 04

  Oh, we have Xfinity Shield. Its built-in Wi-Fi feature detects movement without cameras.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  What she didn't know is that online, there lurked an even bigger...

• 3:41Speaker 04

  Xfinity Cyber Secure protects us from digital threats, too.

• 3:44Speaker 05

  I should have stuck to rom-coms. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Introducing Xfinity Shield. Visit Xfinity.com/shield to learn more. Xfinity: Imagine That. Restrictions apply, not available in all areas. Xfinity Internet and compatible equipment required.

• 3:59Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of American History Tellers. In our latest series, U.S. Army Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and 24 other men embark on a scientific expedition to the Arctic in 1881. But despite achieving several triumphs of discovery, the men will soon face tragedy. Listen to American History Tellers on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:22Alice Levine?

  From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine.

• 4:24Matt Forde?

  And I'm Matt Ford.

• 4:25Alice Levine?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 4:39Matt Forde?

  So Alice, we left the last episode with the big heist in theory being a huge success. But as with all good scandals, it quickly got very complicated.

• 4:48Alice Levine?

  Yes, they've now had to learn a new craft, the smelting game, and also get their heads around some serious money laundering. In fact, gold laundering, because they just weren't expecting to get that in the hall at all.

• 5:00Matt Forde?

  Yeah, and this Brian Micky relationship has suddenly become way more complicated because Brian's agreed to look after Micky's gold while he's stuck away. He's also agreed to look after his wife, and Brian's definition of what that means really has been stretched beyond generosity. He really is looking after Micky's wife.

• 5:18Alice Levine?

  Success has made Brian quite the opportunist, hasn't it? So he's decided that Micky's just not getting out of prison. So why not just claim his haul? And this means Brian is faced with a whole new level of drama, which is, how do you spend all of my money and all of Micky's money before he finds out?

• 5:33Matt Forde?

  While still being in possession of a whole load of traceable gold.

• 5:37Alice Levine?

  And bonking jacket, yeah.

• 5:38Matt Forde?

  Yes, bonking jacket. This is episode two, The Golden Rule.

• 5:46Matt Forde?

  April 1984, Isle of Dogs, London. Brian Perry paces the large derelict warehouse. He looks at the broken windows, the walls covered with graffiti. He shakes out a silk handkerchief and covers his mouth. The whole place stinks of urine and bird droppings.

• 6:09Alice Levine?

  Gentleman thieves, silk handkerchiefs. It was a different time, a different quality of criminal.

• 6:14Matt Forde?

  Yes, I don't think the moped gangs that blight London these days have silk handkerchiefs. They just carry knives and acid.

• 6:21Alice Levine?

  Snap your phone, daub their face with a little neckerchief.

• 6:26Matt Forde?

  Oh, is that Paisley? He ducks as a pigeon swoops over his head. Why are we here? It's a shithole!

• 6:35Matt Forde?

  He watches Jackie tighten her fur coat against the cold. He wants to tell her he's had a tip-off, that this whole area could be transformed into Manhattan on Thames.

• 6:43Alice Levine?

  Shut up! What do you mean? What do you mean Manhattan on Thames?

• 6:49Matt Forde?

  Well surely, like, not in the time that they're gonna be there.

• 6:52Alice Levine?

  Not in the next thirty-five minutes!

• 6:54Matt Forde?

  It's a forty-year project!

• 6:57Matt Forde?

  He knows how foolish it sounds.

• 6:59Alice Levine?

  Yep.

• 7:00Matt Forde?

  The truth is, since stealing Mickey's gold, money's been coming in faster than he can cope with. He needs to invest it somewhere, make it all untraceable. Legit.

• 7:12Matt Forde?

  He hears Jackie shriek as a rat scuttles past. Fucking hell, Brian, I've had enough! I wanna go home!

• 7:19Alice Levine?

  This is like the worst episode of Grand Designs ever.

• 7:22Matt Forde?

  I think the smell of bird poo's got a bit of charm, innit?

• 7:24Alice Levine?

  And just to say, if people don't know this area, the train stations have names which really paint a picture of somewhere glamorous, like Mudchute. Um, you know, this is a part of London where they really didn't spend long on the PR.

• 7:42Matt Forde?

  An Alfa Romeo screeches to a halt outside. A few seconds later, a man in a pinstripe suit and crisp white shirt strides in confidently to meet him. Sorry I'm late. The man juts out a hand to shake. Brian takes in his Rolex, his starched cuffs, his gold cufflinks, his glistening white teeth. Michael Ralton. He looks like he's just stepped out of a boardroom. Brian didn't realise he'd be so posh. He'd heard about Ralton through an acquaintance after the robbery. A lawyer-turned-property dealer who knows how to launder money and sniff out legal loopholes. It's Ralton who's told him this land would be the perfect place to launder his cash.

• 8:27Matt Forde?

  Brian grabs Relton's arm, leads him away from Jackie and hisses in his ear. What the fuck is this place? There's no transport, no shops. Who in their right mind would live out here?

• 8:39Alice Levine?

  If you just hold your horses, Brian, in a couple of years, they'll build the DLR, then you can get off at Mudshoe and then walk for 35 minutes. I really don't know what you're complaining about.

• 8:46Matt Forde?

  He watches Relton's face turn serious. Yuppies, Brian, that's who. And they'll pay a bloody fortune for it. Relton takes a map from his pocket. We're six miles from the city, from the whole financial sector. He waves his arm around. Which makes this prime real estate and the perfect place for someone who needs to invest a lot of money very quickly. Brian glances over at Jackie, sees her nudge away a used condom with the toe of her shoe. Relton moves a step closer. You won't even have to build anything, just buy the land, draw up plans with an architect, sell it on. Clean money, big profit.

• 9:30Matt Forde?

  I can help you do that, Brian. Relton raises an eyebrow at him. At a cost, of course.

• 9:39Matt Forde?

  Brian walks over to the broken window and gazes out. He lights a cigar, takes in the rubbish strewn wharfs and old warehouses, the scummy surface of the Thames covered with litter. He's only ever run his little cab firm. He doesn't know a damn thing about laundering vast sums of money.

• 9:58Alice Levine?

  It seems so naive to not have an investment plan set up of how you're going to launder the money, but I guess because they thought they were getting a share of 3 million and they've actually got a share of 26 million, it's a whole different ballgame of how you're going to hide that.

• 10:12Matt Forde?

  It's the classic problem that you find on Dragon's Den is this money laundering operation is effectively a cottage industry. How are they going to scale it up? And you cannot use Tuca's central London officers for stuff like this.

• 10:26Alice Levine?

  To be clear, that does not mean the people that go on Dragon's Den are laundering money.

• 10:30Matt Forde?

  I mean, the odd one must have.

• 10:37Matt Forde?

  He heads back to Relton. He knows it's a risk. He could lose it all, but right now, Relton is his best bet. Brian holds out his hand to shake, then hisses in his ear. "Nobody else finds out about this. Understood."

• 11:01Matt Forde?

  Two weeks later, Brian's cab office, South London. Brian fixes himself a drink, enjoys the clink of ice in the tumbler. He can't wait till he's out of this tiny office. He hears the phone ringing. "Hello?" "I wanna see you, Brian. Get yourself over here." Brian's blood runs cold. He parts the curtains, peers out into the empty street. "Mickey, I was just heading out. I, um..." But Mickey cuts in. "I don't care what you're doing, Brian. Visiting hours are in one hour." An hour later, Brian tries not to tremble, as he puts his keys and wallet in front of the guard.

• 11:45Matt Forde?

  He holds out his arms as they pat him down. A few seconds later, he sits in a bolted-down chair and waits. Brian twists his hands as his mind races. He needs believable answers for anything Mickey might throw at him. He blinks around nervously as the prisoners start to file in. He tries hard not to think about all the times he's seen Mickey beat someone to a pulp, or douse them with petrol and hold a lighter to them. "Now, maybe you should have thought about that before you started romancing this man's wife."

• 12:20Alice Levine?

  "Romancing?"

• 12:21Matt Forde?

  "What do you want me to say? Tonkin?" Brian has a lot of stamina for romance.

• 12:27Alice Levine?

  "I really hope you're practising safe romancing."

• 12:33Matt Forde?

  Brian jumps to his feet as Mickey appears. Pasts on a smile, tries to keep his voice light. How you been Mickey? Mickey sits down. How do you fucking think? He sits down himself and shuffles uneasily. Feels his body break into a cold clammy sweat as Mickey leans across the table and glares at him. He blinks at the guards. Wonders if they'll be able to save him if Mickey explodes. Can I trust you Brian? Brian swallows nervously. Of course Mickey, you know that. Mickey stares at him in silence for a moment. I'll do anything Mickey, just tell me what it is. A slight grin appears on Mickey's face.

• 13:18Matt Forde?

  I want you to spring me. I've got an helicopter ready for two days' time. I want you on it. Brian's eyes widen. Escape! Keep your fucking voice down. He watches Mickey's eyes swivel over to the guards. Before he puts a piece of paper on the table. The pilot's number. Calling for details. Make sure the helicopter lands in the yard. Eleven o'clock, on the dot.

• 13:46Alice Levine?

  This is madness. What, is this an episode of like Annika Rice? What do you mean it's gonna land in the yard?

• 13:53Matt Forde?

  Mickey, if you're caught... Mickey leans back. Don't worry about that Brian. You just make sure it lands on time.

• 14:04Matt Forde?

  Brian's hand shakes as he lights his cigar at the prison gates. He needs to find a way out of this mess.

• 14:12Matt Forde?

  He looks back at the imposing prison walls. At the tall gloomy building with its tiny barred windows. One way or another, he has to keep Mickey locked up. But he can't ignore Mickey's orders either. He throws down his cigar butt, marches over to the phone box. Unfolds a piece of paper with the pilot's number. Dials out and arranges a recce for the next day. When the call's over, he takes a deep breath. Then picks up the receiver again. And dials the prison.

• 14:48Matt Forde?

  He's about to take the biggest risk of his life. And if Mickey ever finds out. He's a dead man.

• 15:04Matt Forde?

  Two days later, Brixton Prison. Mickey sits at the long table in the prison mess. Smiles as he takes a mouthful of porridge. He pushes away his plate. It's the last tasteless sludge he's ever going to eat in this place. Tonight, he'll be relaxing with a cold beer by a pool somewhere in Spain. He's got a private jet on standby to fly him and Jackie there. All he has to do is get into that yard on time. He grabs his cup and plate and heads back to his cell. Checks his watch. Fifty-five minutes to go. He lucks a cigarette and tries to calm his nerves. He takes down the photo of Jackie from his wall. Tucks it in his pocket. He can't wait to see her face.

• 15:49Matt Forde?

  He takes a final look at his cell. Then heads out to the common room.

• 15:55Matt Forde?

  Forty-five minutes later, he joins the queue for the yard. He shuffles forward slowly. And then stops. He strains to see what's going on. Here's some argument ahead of him. His heart thuds. He catches the guard's eye. Sees him jerk his head. He pushes his way to the front. A few moments later, he steps into the yard. His pulse races as he squints up at the cloudless sky. Only a few minutes to go now. A few minutes, then he's free. He spins around at the sound of the scuffle behind him. Smiles to himself.

• 16:37Matt Forde?

  He's organised a fight in the yard to distract the guards. He glances up at the clock. But realises in horror, it's too early. It shouldn't kick off until the helicopter's in view. His jaw slackens as he realises the guards aren't stopping a fight. They're running towards him. A few seconds later, he's knocked to the ground. He sees a brief glint of handcuffs. He tries to kick out, but someone holds his legs. He feels his head yanked back as a prison officer he's never seen before snarls at him. On your feet! He's hauled back inside. And thrown into solitary.

• 17:18Matt Forde?

  He bangs and kicks the door. Oh fucking ratty, who the fuck was it?

• 17:24Matt Forde?

  He sinks into the thin mattress, slams his fist against the concrete wall. He doesn't know what's just gone down. He just knows someone has snitched. And mad Mickey McAvoy isn't going to rest until he's hunted down the scumbag that's keeping him here.

• 17:44Alice Levine?

  This must be so stressful, you're one chance at freedom. But I still don't think it's any excuse to talk about yourself in the third person.

• 17:55Matt Forde?

  December 1984. Court number two, the Old Bailey, London.

• 18:02Matt Forde?

  Brian squirms in his seat in the gallery, rubs his forehead. Glances down at Mickey in the dock. He looks relaxed, happy even. Brian thought Mickey's trial would be a cut and dry case. But he spent the last few hours listening to witnesses claim they were with Mickey at the time of the heist. He can't believe what he's hearing.

• 18:25Alice Levine?

  Crooks, lying, what has the world come to?

• 18:28Matt Forde?

  We're meant to be honourable crooks, we never lie under oath. Mickey must have gotten to half of South London. And right now, even one of the policemen is cracking under Mickey's barrister's cross-examination.

• 18:41Matt Forde?

  But is there any forensic, photographic, or telephone evidence to link my client, Michael McAvoy, to the scene of this robbery? Brian watches the policeman swallow hard, then turn to the judge. No, your honour.

• 19:00Matt Forde?

  Mickey's barrister spins around to the jury, then looks back at the policeman. Am I correct that your main evidence is a statement by one of the guards, a Mr Anthony Black? Brian leans forward, watches the policeman stutter out his reply. That's, uh, that's right. Brian's mouth is dry. He swallows hard. He's just laundered another half million of Mickey's stolen gold in Dockland's property.

• 19:31Alice Levine?

  That is a lot of bird poo and broken windows.

• 19:34Matt Forde?

  Where you see bird poo and broken windows, I see potential. And used condoms. He needs Mickey to remain behind bars. Brian watches as the barrister rocks on his heels. And is it correct to say that the statement from Mr Anthony Black has now gone missing? Brian feels his blood go cold as a murmur goes around the courtroom. His heart pounds as the policeman hangs his head. Uh, yes, that's correct.

• 20:07Matt Forde?

  A few minutes later, Tony Black walks up to the stand. Brian hasn't seen him since the robbery, when Black let them into the warehouse. But he's hardly recognisable. He's lost weight. His dark hair's turning grey. Even from this distance, Brian can see that he's shaking.

• 20:30Matt Forde?

  Mickey's barrister sweeps forward and booms at him. You positively identified Mr Michael McAvoy as one of the robbers, did you not? Brian runs his tongue over his dry lips as Tony nods. Yes. He watches the barrister turn to the jury and smile. Did you see his face in the robbery? His heart thumps as Tony blurts out. Course not, he was wearing a yellow balaclava.

• 21:02Matt Forde?

  Brian closes his eyes as laughter runs around the courtroom. This whole trial has been an utter disaster. He looks down at Mickey now, sees a satisfied smirk spread across his face.

• 21:19Matt Forde?

  Two days later, Brian feels his chest tighten as the foreman stands up and clears his throat. He can only hope the jury hasn't been hoodwinked by Mickey and his team. We find the defendant guilty, Your Honour.

• 21:38Alice Levine?

  Brian needs to rearrange his face, he needs to paint on a sort of distressed scowl.

• 21:43Matt Forde?

  Ah, gutted for you Mick, oh man.

• 21:46Alice Levine?

  We were all rooting for you dude.

• 21:52Matt Forde?

  A ripple of shock goes around the courtroom. Brian's eyes widen as the judge calls for quiet. Then sentences Mickey to... Twenty-five years without parole.

• 22:05Alice Levine?

  Twenty-five years is shocking. That is so long.

• 22:08Matt Forde?

  This was the biggest robbery in British history. It was way more than the Great Train Robbery. So, once you're dealing with a value of this scale, it's effectively a national security issue, and they had to send a message to deter anyone else thinking of pulling off something like this.

• 22:22Alice Levine?

  Honestly, just talk to any of the people involved. They'd say, "Don't do it. It's a right headache."

• 22:26Matt Forde?

  If you're thinking of pulling off the biggest heist in British history, and you're listening to this maybe for research, I think I can speak for both of us, Alice, and say...

• 22:33Alice Levine?

  Oh, please.

• 22:35Matt Forde?

  Get a hobby. Fulfill your life in other ways. Money isn't everything. You'll be looking over the shoulder for the rest of your days, and you might be looking over your shoulder in prison. Thinking away as a podcast, we are helping fight crime.

• 22:45Alice Levine?

  Oh, I don't think you could argue that this isn't a public service broadcast.

• 22:49Matt Forde?

  Two hours later, Brian walks into his cab office in Bermondsey and pins a sign on his wall. "Remember the golden rule. Whoever has the gold makes the rules."

• 23:02Matt Forde?

  He puts his feet on the desk, lights a cigar, and blows out a blue plume of smoke.

• 23:09Matt Forde?

  There's a new boss in town, and now Brian's going to live the life he always wanted, with Jackie by his side. And there's nothing Mickey McAvoy can do to stop him.

• 23:27Speaker 07

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. His coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches. Your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 24:51Matt Forde?

  January 1985, central London. Brian takes a seat in the gleaming West London office, tightens the knot on his silk tie, and looks at the team of property developers sitting opposite. He's been trying to sell them one of his warehouses, Globe Wharf. He bought it with the help of that property dealer, Relton, for just over one and a half million pounds a few months ago. Right now, he has a terrible feeling he paid too much. He turns his gold pen in his hands. He feels his palms sweat. He watches Relton point to a white architectural model in the middle of the table.

• 25:33Matt Forde?

  Globe Wharf is the perfect space for luxury living. A gym and swimming pool in the basement, one- and two-bed luxury apartments. We have the architects' plans and planning permission from the council. He grins at them. We need a sensible offer, of course. We do have other interested parties. Brian tries hard to read the mood in the room. Eventually, a woman in the middle of the group clears her throat. She runs her bright red fingernails through her big hair, eyeballs Brian, then slides a piece of paper across the desk. This is our offer, Mr. Perry.

• 26:13Matt Forde?

  Brian unfolds the paper. He stares, open-mouthed at the figure. Looks up at the woman, then back at the amount, and mutters to himself in disbelief. Eight million pound!

• 26:30Alice Levine?

  Can we just not have Brian in any of these negotiations in the future? He is a liability.

• 26:35Matt Forde?

  Sorry, he looks surprised. Can we change our offer?

• 26:39Matt Forde?

  He looks at Relton, who snatches the paper. For a second, the room is completely silent. Then Relton clears his throat, slowly gets to his feet, and holds out his hand. We have a deal! That night, Brian staggers around Doc's Diner, Relton's favourite restaurant.

• 27:01Matt Forde?

  He can't believe it. Eight million quid for a derelict old warehouse covered in pigeon shit? It's the best job he's ever pulled off in his life. He grabs another bottle of champagne from an ice bucket, takes a long glug.

• 27:17Matt Forde?

  A cheer goes up as a naked woman pushes past him and climbs onto the diner counter. He stumbles over, watches as Relton shakes up a bottle of champagne, pours it over the woman's breasts, and licks it off. That's just how they served champagne in the 80s. You don't want to see how they drank Carling. Lick it off what? He takes another swig from his own bottle, sways uneasily. He's been partying now for eight hours solid, and he's exhausted. He staggers out into the car park, takes in the stench from the Thames as he lights a cigar.

• 27:54Alice Levine?

  That stench is worth a cool eight million pounds! That is what you're going to be smelling from your one-to-two bedroom penthouses on the balcony, my friends.

• 28:04Matt Forde?

  He stumbles to his Bentley, taps on the window, and tells his chauffeur, "Get me home!" He leans his head against the window, gazes out at the endless rows of empty warehouses, and decides. He's going to buy them all up. He's going to make himself richer beyond anything he could ever imagine.

• 28:32Matt Forde?

  Eight hours later, Kenneth Noe's mansion, Kent. Detective Chief Superintendent Brian Boyce jumps out of his car. He storms over to his team of officers, standing around the cordoned-off spot where Kenneth Noe killed one of his men just hours ago. He clenches his fists, fights hard to keep a lid on his anger and his grief. He's been leading the Brinksmatt investigation for months, but right now, all he's got to show for it is the murder of one of his best men. He bristles at the shouts from the press corps stationed at the property's gate. "Is it true Noe's been under surveillance for months?" "How much of the Brinksmatt gold are you still looking for, Boyce?"

• 29:16Matt Forde?

  "For Christ's sake, shut that lot up! I want every inch of these grounds searched. If we have to clear the whole twenty-five acres, so be it. I want that gold found." He turns on his heels, marches into the house. He's dealt with dangerous criminals his whole career. He was part of Nipper Reed's team that put the craze away. But the last twenty-four hours have been the toughest of his life. He picks up a drawing from the kitchen table. It looks like it must have been done by one of Noe's kids.

• 29:49Alice Levine?

  "But is the blueprints for the Bank of England..."

• 29:51Matt Forde?

  "Why has the Governor of the Bank of England got seven fingers? Try harder." He stares at the sketch of a gold bar, lying next to an open copy of the Guinness Book of Records, with a pencilled circle around the entry. "Brinksmatt, Britain's biggest ever robbery."

• 30:08Alice Levine?

  "What is wrong with these people?"

• 30:10Matt Forde?

  "Stop leaving written clues around the place."

• 30:13Alice Levine?

  "Are they quite all right? Why is there no attempt to cover the... is it just hubris? Are they just like, 'It's fine, we're never gonna get got, we're never gonna get ingot.' It's not good, it's not good, move on."

• 30:24Matt Forde?

  He snaps the book shut, presses his fingers to his eyeballs. He then picks up a record on the stereo system. It's "Goldfinger" by Shirley Bassey.

• 30:34Alice Levine?

  "Come on, are you taking the piss?"

• 30:35Matt Forde?

  "No, absolutely, he had 'Goldfinger' by Shirley Bassey on top of the stereo."

• 30:40Alice Levine?

  "I mean, points for detail, I suppose."

• 30:44Matt Forde?

  "His favourite chocolate bar was a gold bar. He had 'Going for Gold' on VHS. Gold by Spandau Ballet."

• 30:51Matt Forde?

  A vein throbs on Boyce's temple. He storms out. Heads to the team of officers digging underneath Noye's drained swimming pool. Anything? The officer shakes his head. Only that Noye's been hating his swimming pool by nicking electricity from the Young Offenders Institution next door.

• 31:09Alice Levine?

  Oh my god, this guy. He really is a crook to the bones, isn't he?

• 31:14Matt Forde?

  He doesn't like paying for anything. But then I guess he's stealing from young offenders, so in a way, he's teaching them a lesson and rehabilitating them.

• 31:23Alice Levine?

  You really had to do some mental gymnastics for that one. Yeah.

• 31:28Matt Forde?

  Boyce grits his teeth. Grabs a shovel and hurls it down. Rip the whole bloody thing out if you have to. Noye's been giving no comment answers all night. He might well be too smart to hide the gold here. The truth is, it could be anywhere. But he needs a breakthrough. He marches back to his car.

• 31:54Matt Forde?

  Sir? He's just about to pull away when a uniformed officer taps on his window. You need to take a look at this. He heads over to a group of officers crouching near a drain. One hands him a bundle of white striped cotton cloth.

• 32:11Matt Forde?

  He unwraps it carefully. And stares down at the perfect yellow gold ingots. He holds one up. Squints at the identification stand. A crossed hammer and pick enclosed in an oval. Ha! Brink's Matt Gold. He grins. At last, a breakthrough. Eleven gold bars from the raid. All he has to do now is find the rest.

• 32:44Matt Forde?

  Two days later, France-Switzerland border.

• 32:49Matt Forde?

  Brian slows down his Bentley Turbo at the border checkpoint. Feels his heart pound against his ribs as a guard knocks on his window and asks for his papers. He's decided he needs to shift his money to somewhere no one can find it, somewhere out of the UK. If Noe talks, he's finished.

• 33:10Matt Forde?

  But as he glances down at a snarling Alsatian dog and watches a border guard thumb through his passport, he's starting to wonder if he's made a mistake. Purpose of your visite. He swallows hard, tries to steady his voice.

• 33:25Alice Levine?

  Je visite en France parce que j'ai une amie en Paris et aussi je voudrais un Coca-Cola.

• 33:35Matt Forde?

  Je voudrais un 1000 Golden Gods, laundered gold civil play. I'm a businessman, here for a meeting with a bank.

• 33:45Alice Levine?

  Nothing to see here, I'm just a cockney in a Bentley Turbo at the border.

• 33:51Matt Forde?

  The guard's eyes narrow.

• 33:54Matt Forde?

  Out of the car, please. He breaks out into a cold sweat as they check his boot, search under the car. He spins around, half-thinks about making a run for it. But the guard marches over and hands back his passport.

• 34:11Matt Forde?

  He nods his thanks, slips into the driver's seat and stares straight ahead. For a moment, he's completely frozen with fear. He's got 900 grand hidden in the bodywork of this car. He can't believe they haven't found it.

• 34:29Matt Forde?

  He starts the engine, his heart pounds as he watches the barrier slowly lift. He takes a deep breath and glides the car across the border into Switzerland.

• 34:42Matt Forde?

  A few hours later, he drags two heavy battered suitcases into the Hong Kong and Shanghai bank in Zurich. He heaves the cases onto the marble counter. The smartly dressed cashier looks him up and down, and frowns. Kann ich heilen helfen? Brian looks at him in confusion. Relton has set up this meeting. He isn't sure what he's supposed to ask for. He clears his throat. I want to open an account. Fewer accounts, actually. The cashier's face hardens.

• 35:16Alice Levine?

  That could just be because of the arrogance of being a Brit and not even trying with the language.

• 35:21Matt Forde?

  At least thumb through a translation dictionary, make the effort. Brian glances around as everyone stares at him. He stares down at his ill-fitting suit and scuffed shoes, realises he hasn't shaved for two days. He sticks out like a sore thumb. He pulls himself up to his full height, unzips the two suitcases, then pushes them a few inches towards the cashier, watches his eyes bulge at the sight of the neatly stacked notes. He mutters something to his colleague. A few seconds later, a tall elegant man appears from a hidden doorway and glides towards him, introduces himself as the manager. This way, sir.

• 36:06Alice Levine?

  This is every day in a Swiss bank, isn't it?

• 36:09Matt Forde?

  It is, and I dare say, with even a basic knowledge of Swiss history, they've taken money off worse people. Brian's positively a fit and proper person compared to some of their previous clients.

• 36:20Alice Levine?

  Upstanding.

• 36:21Matt Forde?

  A bead of sweat breaks out on Brian's forehead as he follows him into a small room. His mind scrambles for a reason why he has bundles of brand-new fifty-pound notes. But the manager doesn't ask any questions. Instead, he offers him a cigar while an assistant hands him a clipboard with some forms. Fill in your personal details, please, as in names of your new accounts. Brian looks up. He hasn't thought about names. He stares out of the window at the tall clock tower for a moment. He looks back at the forms. He may as well have fun with this. So he scribbles down Glad, after his mother Gladys, Burton, after Richard Burton, his favourite actor,

• 37:05Matt Forde?

  and Moet, after his favourite champagne. And for his occupation, he writes, Waster.

• 37:11Alice Levine?

  Does it really feel like the time to have fun with it? You can have fun with it, with the money, later. Have fun with the money, don't have fun with the forms.

• 37:19Matt Forde?

  Yeah, what I would say is, I don't think banter translates in a formal environment.

• 37:24Matt Forde?

  An hour later, he opens a bottle of chilled champagne in his luxury suite at the Dolda Grand Hotel. Checks his watch. Round about now, Relton should be walking into a bank in the Cayman Islands, opening a new account for an offshore company to hide an additional £2 million. In the next few weeks, Brian will open more accounts in other banks, here and over the border in Liechtenstein. And he'll keep pumping money into all of them. Even if Kenny Noe does talk now, the police won't be able to trace the money. He sips his champagne and watches the sun slip behind the Alps. Perhaps Noe's arrest was the best thing that could have happened to him,

• 38:07Matt Forde?

  because no one can touch him or his money now.

• 38:18Matt Forde?

  One day later, Gartery Prison, Leicester.

• 38:23Matt Forde?

  Mickey saunters into the interview room. His heart drops at the sight of DCS Boyce. He was hoping it'd be Jackie.

• 38:32Matt Forde?

  He sits down, folds his arms, and juts out his chin. You're wasting your time, Mr. Boyce. He watches Boyce's eyes narrow as he pushes a gold ingot over the table. Mickey stares down at it, fights every urge not to pick it up. We found 11 of these in Kenneth Noe's house. Look at the stamp, Mickey. Mickey feels the pressure in his temples. How come noise smelting your gold Mickey? Mickey fumbles for a cigarette. He's determined not to be needled by Boyce. He's got no proof it's his gold. He takes a deep drag, squints across the table.

• 39:16Matt Forde?

  Thing is Mickey, we're suddenly hearing all sorts of wild tales. Million pound property deals in London. People buying luxury cars, mansions. A lot of your old South London mates are really living it up. And we think it's with your share.

• 39:33Alice Levine?

  What a way to find out. You're in prison for 25 years. And then you find out that the people that you're covering for are just living the life of Riley and they've nabbed your portion.

• 39:45Matt Forde?

  I was planning on spending all that when I was 80.

• 39:48Alice Levine?

  It's gonna have the best year and a half of my life.

• 39:51Matt Forde?

  Mickey looks away, tries to push down his growing anger. Why don't you go talk to them then? He watches Boyce, slowly nod. Cause they're all out there free. And you're not. Boyce leans towards him. Money changes people Mickey. Who can you really trust on the outside? Mickey stubs out his cigarette. You're wasting your time Mr. Boyce.

• 40:19Matt Forde?

  Mickey slowly gets to his feet, glares at the guard. I'm done.

• 40:27Matt Forde?

  He heads back to his cell, sits down on his bed. He knows how the police operate, but Boyce has rattled him. He reaches down, pulls out a mobile phone from under the latrine.

• 40:40Alice Levine?

  That's gotta be a big latrine to conceal the size of 80s mobile we imagine he's rocking.

• 40:46Matt Forde?

  He dials a number he knows off by heart. Hello? Roddy, it's Mickey. I've got a job for ya.

• 40:57Matt Forde?

  Two days later, Mickey runs his fingers along a line of Geoffrey Archer novels in the prison library. Just for his own peace of mind, he waits until the librarian finishes chatting with another prisoner, then heads over to him. What you got for me? He watches the librarian's eyes nervously dart around the room as he hands over a large copy of Jane Fonda's workout book. Mickey grabs it and slips into one of the booths, where he slides out a letter from the covers. His eyes scan down the names of every one of the Brink's Mat gang. He reads how Tony White's bought a mansion in Kent but spent most of his days in South London pubs. How Little Legs Lloyd's living it up in Spain.

• 41:39Matt Forde?

  How Big John's been scammed after he bought an oil well in the States that was dry as sticks. He smiles, feels his neck muscles start to relax. Boyce was yanking his chain. Nobody's double-crossing him at all. Then he notices the corner of a photograph. He starts to slide it out, and then stops. It's Jackie. He didn't ask anyone to follow Jackie. He slides out the rest of the photo, and recoils. She's kissing someone, a man. It takes him a moment before he realises who he is. Brian. He can't understand it.

• 42:22Matt Forde?

  He furrows his brow, examines the photo a second time. Brian, kissing his Jackie, on the lips. He spins around as a guard passes behind him. Someone's must be having a good time here, Mickey. There must be some kind of explanation. Brian always seemed so, so willing.

• 42:45Alice Levine?

  I mean, there it is.

• 42:46Matt Forde?

  That's the explanation, Mickey. He stares again at the photo. He asked Brian to look after Jackie when he was arrested. He's been asking Brian to look after Jackie for years. He even asked him to collect her before his failed helicopter escape. He feels his blood start to boil as it hits him.

• 43:04Alice Levine?

  There it is.

• 43:05Matt Forde?

  But it can't have been Brian that sabotaged his helicopter escape.

• 43:09Alice Levine?

  Come on.

• 43:10Matt Forde?

  Brian that tipped off the guards so that he could spend time with Jackie in... He slams his hand against the bookcase. Mickey, settle down. But all Mickey can see is Brian in bed with Jackie. The two of them laughing at him, planning, plotting, scheming.

• 43:29Alice Levine?

  How many photos were there?

• 43:30Matt Forde?

  I think they might be doing something else in bed as well, Mickey. Catch up, mate. What were you doing in there, plotting? Yeah.

• 43:36Alice Levine?

  We did planning, plotting, scheming, romancing.

• 43:40Matt Forde?

  He smashes his fist against the bookcase for a second time. He watches as the shelving tilts forward and crashes to the floor. Before he knows what's happening, two guards are on him and he's kicking and punching with a violence he didn't think he had. He watches the first guard reel back in shock as blood spurts from his cheek. Then, he lays into the second guard, hits him over and over. He's about to grab the photo when he feels a sharp pain across his back. His legs weaken and buckle from under him. He covers his head as he hits the floor, tries to curl into a ball as fists and boots lay into him. He looks across at the crumpled, bloodstained photo of Jackie and Brian on the floor.

• 44:22Matt Forde?

  Brian's been betraying him this whole time. He closes his swollen eyes and decides. He's got one last card to play.

• 44:34Matt Forde?

  It goes against every moral code he's ever held and everything he's ever stood for. But it's the only chance he's got left and he's going to take it.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  There are books that change how you see the world and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and the Fire Next Time to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the President is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create.

• 45:36Speaker 03

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.

• 45:52Speaker 05

  In January 1995, 18-year-old Krista Pike and two friends lured a classmate, 19-year-old Colleen Slammer, to an abandoned steam plant and killed her. At just 20 years old, Pike was sentenced to death. 30 years later, on September 30, 2026, the state of Tennessee tried to execute her and failed. I'm Candace DeLong, former FBI profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche, where we go inside the minds behind the most shocking crimes. In our latest episode, we take you inside the case of Krista Pike. The brutal crime, the childhood of abuse, three decades of appeals, and the night an execution went terribly wrong.

• 46:37Speaker 05

  Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Killer Psyche one week early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 47:00Matt Forde?

  Two days later, Gartery Prison, Leicester. Mickey sits in a plastic chair in the interview room, feels his leg nervously shake up and down. DCS Boyce should be here any minute, but Mickey still hasn't worked out exactly what he's going to say to him. A few seconds later, Boyce walks in with another man. Mickey, I'd like you to meet Detective Superintendent Lundey. Mickey stares at the man, takes in his gray sweatback hair and brown suit.

• 47:33Matt Forde?

  He shakes his head. I'll talk to you, not him. I ain't talking to no one I don't know. He watches Boyce's jaw tighten. I hope you're not going to mess us around, Mickey. Mickey narrows his eyes, studies Lundie again, then leans back. Okay, but let's get this straight. I ain't giving you no names. Mickey wonders for a moment if actually he should. He could give Boyce Brian's name. Mickey allows himself to imagine the police smashing down Jackie's front door and pulling the two of them kicking and screaming into the street.

• 48:08Alice Levine?

  It's a nice thought, isn't it? It's a nice revenge thought.

• 48:12Matt Forde?

  Mmm, keeps me warm at night. Mickey grips the edge of the table. No, he wants to be the one to do that. He watches Boyce and Lundie glance at each other, until Boyce reluctantly nods. Mickey sits up, tries to ignore the pain that shoots through his ribs. You want the gold, Mr. Boyce, and I can troll half of it. I can give it to you, but I want guarantees. I want a year off my sentence for every million I give back. Boyce frowns, leans forward. You're going to hand over three thousand four hundred gold ingots.

• 48:51Alice Levine?

  It's just occurred to me that Mickey genuinely thinks he is gonna hand it over. This isn't a bluff. He thinks that his share of the gold is still safely locked up, because the last thing that he said to Brian about it was, "Sure, you go to Noi and you have yours smelted, you can be the guinea pig", and he was biding his time to see if he wanted to do the same with his own. So he thinks that Brian's just been babysitting it.

• 49:13Matt Forde?

  Mickey glares at Boyce, takes in his neatly coned hair and carefully knotted tie. He hates everything about the police. His whole life has been spent either avoiding them or lying to them. He takes a deep breath, then looks Boyce straight in the eye. I want guarantees you lot won't double-cross me. He watches Boyce's eyebrows shoot up, as Lundie plants his folded hands on the desk and snarls. We're not the criminals in the room, Mickey. Boyce holds up his hand to silence Lundie. How will you get it to us? Mickey takes a last drag on his cigarette.

• 49:54Matt Forde?

  I'll sort that out, don't you worry.

• 49:57Alice Levine?

  Just get the helicopter here for 11 o'clock.

• 50:01Matt Forde?

  He crushes the cigarette in the ashtray, hopes they don't see his hands shaking. This is his last chance to get out, to get back to Jackie, save his marriage, and get even with Brian. He looks at Boyce, then at Lundey. They're both stony-faced, giving nothing away. He spits out. We gotta deal then, or what? He holds his breath as they stand up. Boyce straightens his tie, then holds out his hand for Mickey. Mickey wipes his sweaty palm and shakes on it. He's going to hand over his gold, give it to the police, no questions asked. Get out of this godforsaken place.

• 50:45Matt Forde?

  And when he does, he'll hunt Brian Perry down and kill him.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta, through secret companies, organised crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts,

• 51:43Speaker 03

  and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 51:57Speaker 06

  A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors, the lane is clear, and then, boom, impact.

• 52:05Speaker 04

  Pickup truck seemingly out of nowhere scrapes down the side of his 18 wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 53:01Matt Forde?

  From Wondery, this is the second episode in our series, The Brink's Matt Heist.

• 53:06Alice Levine?

  A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.

• 53:13Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read The Curse of Brink's Matt and Public Enemy Number One: The Life and Crimes of Kenneth Noye by Wensley Clarkson; The Gold: The Real Story Behind Brink's Matt: Britain's Biggest Heist by Neil Forsyth and Thomas Turner; Death Warrant: Kenneth Noye, The Brink's Matt Robbery and the Gold by Will Pearson; and Goldfinger and Me: Bullets, Bullion, and Betrayal by Marney Palmer.

• 53:36Alice Levine?

  And remember, if you want to get in touch with us with comments, suggestions, complaints, ideas for scandals, then you can email us at [email protected]. British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine.

• 53:49Matt Forde?

  And me, Matt Ford. Written by Karen Laws. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer is Jai Williams. For Samizdat, our producer is Chika Ayers. Our assistant producer is Redzi Bernard. Our senior producer is Joe Sykes. For Wondery, our series producer is Theodora La Ludis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones, and Marshall Louie.

• 54:34Speaker 05

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redman always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived there after him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us.

• 55:19Speaker 05

  For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.