Noel and Liam | The Battle of Britpop | 2

It’s 1995 and Noel and Liam have a new enemy. But this time it’s not each other. The brothers have put aside their differences to face Britpop band, Blur, in the UK’s most intense chart battle for thirty years. The country is holding its breath as the groups prepare to release singles on the same day. But will the bad boy brothers of Britpop cope if they fail to emerge victorious? Listen to British Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting https://wondery.com/links/british-scandal/ now. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:07Matt Forde?

  Just to let you know, as you may have expected, particularly if you listened to the last episode or have any knowledge of Oasis, there is a lot of swearing in this episode of the show.

• 0:18Alice Levine?

  But in our defence, we've actually removed so much swearing from the transcripts, from the dialogue. This is actually the PG version, if you can believe that.

• 0:27Matt Forde?

  We took more swearing out of this episode than any other in our show's history. And there's still tonnes left.

• 0:40Matt Forde?

  August 23rd, 1996, MTV Unplugged, Royal Festival Hall, London.

• 0:50Matt Forde?

  Noel Gallagher strides onto the stage. It's an hour until the live show. It feels oddly intimate compared to the crowds of Nebworth just a few weeks prior.

• 1:01Matt Forde?

  But tonight is a different kind of show, raw and stripped back. He can feel the anticipation in the air as sound engineers rush him. MTV Unplugged shows can make or break a band's career in the States. He doesn't intend to let another chance slip through his fingers.

• 1:19Matt Forde?

  He hears his guitar crackle to life, but his brow starts to furrow in confusion as he glances across at Bonehead. It's the final sound check. The band is all set, but Liam is nowhere to be seen. "You've got to be kidding me. Where the hell is our kid?" He's about to shout to the sound crew when he hears a loud bang. He turns, spots Liam's stumble at the edge of the stage. He's absolutely shitfaced. Liam lurches across the stage and fixes him with a look that Noel recognises, then croaks, "Laryngitis. I can't sing."

• 1:58Alice Levine?

  That is wholly unfortunate. He's not been taking his vitamin C.

• 2:01Matt Forde?

  No, Liam had various bouts of laryngitis or throat infections throughout Oasis's career, and this was a periodical argument between the two of them. Is Liam just drunk and been taking things? Has he been putting things into his mouth and throat?

• 2:18Alice Levine?

  That his mouth and throat don't like.

• 2:19Matt Forde?

  Yeah, or has he genuinely got laryngitis?

• 2:22Alice Levine?

  Take your super ted vitamins and get on stage.

• 2:25Matt Forde?

  Liam points to his throat. It looks like he hasn't slept for days. He's holding a cigarette in one hand. Noel snaps back. Why you puff away like a fucking steam train? He slams his guitar down, tries to ignore the anxious glances from the US sound crew who've flown in especially for his performance. Other bands would kill to have an MTV Unplugged spot. He'll have to sing the entire set himself.

• 2:54Matt Forde?

  Half an hour later, the lights dim. Noel looks nervously at the crowd. He's never sung an entire set. He hopes his own voice will hold, hopes the audience will stick with him. He sees the confusion on their faces at Liam's absence. Noel shuffles in his wooden seat, but as the familiar sound of the band comes to life, he quickly finds his rhythm, even starts to enjoy himself, until he spots a familiar silhouette perched on the edge of a seat in the audience balcony. Noel tries to focus on the song, but as he looks again, he realises in anger that it's Liam. He sees a grin fixed on his face, a beer in one hand, a cigarette in the other, and he's heckling him.

• 3:38Matt Forde?

  Pipe down, ah, kid. All he can do is try and tune his brother out. Boo.

• 3:46Alice Levine?

  This is like the rock and roll version of a hazard perception test. You're having everything thrown at you. It's like you're doing a really important live performance that could make your career in the US. Okay, your brother's gonna be late and then it's gonna turn out that he's really, really pissed, then he's gonna be on the balcony, he's gonna be heckling you, people are gonna be really confused as to why it's you on stage and you're singing all the songs and your brother's not there, then you have to regroup, then you have to work out what to do next.

• 4:06Matt Forde?

  He focuses all his attention on his guitar, on his voice, and he slowly starts to feel himself disappear into the music, just as he did as a kid. He sounds great, Oasis sounds great, he has the audience in his hand, even Liam appears to have shut up.

• 4:28Matt Forde?

  He's met with a rapturous applause at the end. But as he leaves the stage, a producer steps forward. Uh, could we do one more take of that last song? Uh, there was just an issue with the sound. Noel is only too happy to return to the stage. But as he does, the shape of Liam appears at his side. I'll sing it. Noel looks at him in utter disbelief. After we've played for a fucking hour and you shout shit from the balcony, you can fuck off. Noel watches as Liam skulks off. Perhaps Oasis is better off without him.

• 5:06Matt Forde?

  Perhaps Oasis only needs one Gallagher brother after all.

• 5:49Speaker 02

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• 6:22Matt Forde?

  From Wondery, I'm Matt Ford.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 6:26Matt Forde?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 6:39Matt Forde?

  So Alice, we had a lot of fun in the last episode. But I'm gonna start with a random question.

• 6:44Alice Levine?

  Oh, okay, by all means.

• 6:45Matt Forde?

  Cats or dogs?

• 6:46Alice Levine?

  Oh, um, cats.

• 6:48Matt Forde?

  Okay. Uh, spaghetti hoops or baked beans?

• 6:51Alice Levine?

  Where is this going? Uh, spaghetti hoops.

• 6:54Matt Forde?

  Yes! Um, chocolate or crisps?

• 6:56Alice Levine?

  I mean, chocolate every time, but, um, why is this relevant?

• 6:59Matt Forde?

  Well, these are the questions the country is asking. And it's not completely random, because at the heart of today's episode is a question that frankly defines who you are. Says everything about what you are as a person. It is the wedge issue in today's society.

• 7:15Alice Levine?

  Oh, fine. I don't know why you didn't just say, so it's hot custard or cold custard?

• 7:19Matt Forde?

  Not quite. Blur versus Oasis.

• 7:21Alice Levine?

  Okay, now you're talking. Blur, the cold custard of the scene, Oasis the hot. Where do people fall? It divided families, it divided offices, it divided possibly this room, actually. Obviously, I know which side you fall on.

• 7:36Matt Forde?

  Hot custard. Oasis are hot custard because they live up north and it's cold and they need a good warm pudding to heat them up.

• 7:43Alice Levine?

  That's just science.

• 7:44Matt Forde?

  So, this is the 90s clash to end all 90s clashes. This is episode two, The Battle of Britpop.

• 7:55Matt Forde?

  February the 20th, 1995, the Brit Awards, Alexandra Palace, London.

• 8:03Matt Forde?

  Liam pushes the empty cans out of the way as he stumbles back to his table and collapses in his chair. He takes another glug of lager and looks around the venue. Bored. He flicks a cigarette across the table at Noel, but he doesn't notice. He's chatting to some bird. Liam reconciled with Noel shortly after their bust-up at the Whisky. He still thinks Noel overreacted, but it's good to have him back in the fold. The only issue is now journos won't shut up about the incident. He had to close down one journalist on the red carpet this evening. We're like a Ferrari. Great to look at, great to drive, and we'll fucking spin out of control every now and again. Deal with it. Tonight, Oasis have been nominated for a bunch of Brit Awards,

• 8:48Matt Forde?

  but so far, they haven't won any. They keep getting beaten by another band. Blur.

• 8:55Matt Forde?

  Liam looks up as Alexandra Palace erupts again. This time Blur has won best band of the year. Oasis's last chance of winning a major trophy is gone.

• 9:07Alice Levine?

  Can I just ask, were you so staunchly Team Oasis that you didn't even enjoy Blur?

• 9:13Matt Forde?

  Oh no, I always quite liked Blur.

• 9:14Alice Levine?

  Okay.

• 9:14Matt Forde?

  I've seen Blur a few times, they are very good.

• 9:16Alice Levine?

  Famously.

• 9:17Matt Forde?

  But I just think Oasis appealed to me in a primal way.

• 9:21Alice Levine?

  You're saying that like that's news to people.

• 9:23Matt Forde?

  But I feel like it makes me a job for preferring Oasis.

• 9:27Alice Levine?

  I don't think so.

• 9:28Matt Forde?

  I tell you what it is, I remember someone saying about Oasis, it allowed young men to effectively emote, young confused men, to let their emotions out. Songs like Live Forever and Don't Look Back in Anger allow them to admit that sometimes life can be melancholic.

• 9:48Matt Forde?

  Liam watches Blur singer Damon Albarn run onto the stage like a puppy. He jumps on top of presenter Bob Mortimer, kisses him on the lips. Blur bassist Alex James leans into the microphone. This is getting very embarrassing. Posh prick. Liam hates Alex. He takes in his mop of carefully quaffed hair, his loose fitting hoodie. He watches Alex struggle to open a bottle of champagne on stage. Liam refers to him as little Lord Fauntleroy. He's a posh boy and Liam hates posh boys. Liam stands up and is about to head for a piss when a journalist appears at his side. How do you feel about Blur making history?

• 10:32Matt Forde?

  No other group has ever won four major awards at the Brits. Liam knows he's being baited.

• 10:38Matt Forde?

  Awards, waste of time mate. All these fancy parties and shiny trophies, they don't mean squat in the real world. He's about to add that he's more concerned with making music than chasing after some golden statue, when he hears Damon Albarn's mockney lilt cut through the speaker system. I think this should be shared with Oasis. Liam turns, stares at the stage, feet fixed to the spot. He senses the camera's swivel and fix on him, as Blur guitarist Graeme Coxon adds: Yeah, much love and respect to them. Liam catches his brother's eye across the table. He's attentive now, and he knows exactly what Noel thinks about it all. It should be them on stage.

• 11:21Matt Forde?

  It should be them scooping up all the awards and leading the Britpop charge. Instead, it's turning into a public humiliation. He struts over to the stage steps. As Alex James descends, he whispers in his ear: You fucking look me in the eye and tell me you deserve that award. He's taken aback, when Alex leans forward and gives him a peck on the cheek, then disappears into the throng of journalists. Liam is left fuming. He storms back to his table, takes a cigarette from his packet and hands it to his brother. In two weeks' time, they're going to be in the studio, recording their second album. He's heard Noel's latest songs, and they're fucking brilliant.

• 12:02Matt Forde?

  Liam's going to make sure this new album is bigger and better than their last. He's going to do all he can to ensure that Oasis crush Blur. It's time for Oasis to take their rightful place as the number one band in Britain.

• 12:24Matt Forde?

  A week later, Rockfield Recording Studio, Wales. Alan McGee grips the wheel as his car sways along a dirt track. He's come to review Oasis's second album, and he's feeling excited. According to the band's producer, recording is going well. But for an hour, he's been scouring country lanes searching for the studio. He jerks up the window as the smell of manure wafts into the car. Finally, skirting a hedgerow, he spots a series of outbuildings nestled among the fields. A few minutes later, he pulls up at the converted barn and kills the engine. Pushing open the large doors of the studio, he's surprised to find the room empty.

• 13:09Matt Forde?

  He wanders around the rehearsal space, takes in the scene. On the floor is a smashed guitar, a number of amps have been overturned. One wall is covered in what looks like blood. He picks up a splintered piece of wood and realises it's a cricket bat. He grips the bat in his hand as he wanders tentatively into the connecting rooms. He peers out back and sees producer Owen Morris crouch down smoking a cigarette. Owen, what the fuck? Owen points his cigarette at a heap of splintered wood and steel strings. Liam Brognol's guitar and it all kicked off. McGee groans. It's costing Creation a thousand pounds a day to be here. Where is he now?

• 13:55Matt Forde?

  Left in the middle of the night. I'd be surprised if he's still in Wales. It was going great. We'd been laying down a song a day.

• 14:02Alice Levine?

  It's absolute madness. They're all professionals and actually it's kind of just like daycare.

• 14:09Matt Forde?

  McGee raises an eyebrow. Well, I suppose I might as well give what you have a lesson. They walk back into the studio. McGee watches Owen punch buttons on the mixing desk. As he lowers a fader, the sound of an acoustic guitar bellows from the speaker. McGee frowns. Oasis are supposed to be a rock band. This one's called Wonderwall.

• 14:34Matt Forde?

  McGee listens as Liam's vocal floats above the guitar. Liam's voice sounds almost melancholic. It's pared back, raw but catchy, rousing. As he listens, he feels his excitement grow. By the time it reaches its anthemic chorus, he can hardly contain himself. He turns wide-eyed to Owen. It's incredible. We're gonna sell twenty million records.

• 15:01Matt Forde?

  Owen's smile vanishes. Not if they don't finish it.

• 15:05Alice Levine?

  You're joking. How long's a song? Three and a half minutes?

• 15:07Matt Forde?

  Finish it.

• 15:08Alice Levine?

  How hard can it be?

• 15:09Matt Forde?

  Just play the guitar bit, play the drum bit, sing it and go home.

• 15:12Alice Levine?

  And after, et cetera, you know, like loop it, whatever, you know, copy that. Brilliant. Done.

• 15:18Matt Forde?

  McGee knows he has to get Noel back to the studio and he thinks he knows where to find him.

• 15:26Matt Forde?

  A few hours later, he's sitting opposite Noel in a London pub. McGee leans over to Noel. I'll talk to Liam, but I need you back in the studio. It's a fucking masterpiece. It'll sell millions, Noel. He watches Noel fumble open a packet of cigarettes.

• 15:45Matt Forde?

  At least here I get a bit of fucking peace. McGee throws a copy of NME down on the table. The headline, Brit Pop Explosion, is plastered in bold red on the cover. And under it, a picture of Damon Albarn's face. Do you want to be a footnote in all this? He stares at Noel.

• 16:05Matt Forde?

  Give the working class kids a voice to rival that of the London set.

• 16:09Alice Levine?

  Oh, well, that's a red rag, isn't it?

• 16:11Matt Forde?

  It is, and slightly ironic, given that Noel and Liam had probably moved to London at this point.

• 16:17Alice Levine?

  Yeah, they're now the Primrose Hill set, aren't they?

• 16:18Matt Forde?

  Yeah. McGee can see him start to soften. He knows this is going to be the biggest record of their careers. It's going to make the millions. And McGee is not going to let the brothers' petty squabbles get in the way.

• 16:34Alice Levine?

  Of his part of those millions.

• 16:38Matt Forde?

  A month later, Covent Garden, London. Damon Albarn picks up the phone, stares out of his window onto a leafy West London suburb, and calls Alex James. So you're coming to this party? It's not one of your political rallies, is it? In the past month, opposition leader Tony Blair has been courting Damon. Blair's team is confident that Prime Minister John Major is on the ropes and that with the band's support, Labour can get a jump in the polls.

• 17:07Alice Levine?

  Isn't that a fra- Frankly, mad assertion.

• 17:10Matt Forde?

  I think what people really loved about this era, and when I say people, I mean me.

• 17:14Alice Levine?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Matt Forde?

  Is that so much was happening at the same time. So you had, the Conservatives had been in for 18 years. I think even supporters of theirs would accept that towards the end, the government was effectively falling apart. And then you had, after years of recession and everyone being skinned, the economy was starting to grow a bit. Labour were gonna win the election and you had all these massive British bands. It felt like conquering the world. All of a sudden, after what felt like generations, there was this explosion of culture, politics, sport and everything else. Alice, these were the greatest times to be alive. Damon fiddles with a spiral phone cord. No, it's not a bloody political rally, it's an invite from McGee, dickhead. Oasis?

• 17:59Matt Forde?

  Alan McGee called him a few days ago to invite him to the Mars Bar in Covent Garden. Oasis's latest single, some might say, has just dropped. And Damon is keen to make amends. He's got no bone to pick with Oasis. He meant what he said at the Brits.

• 18:16Matt Forde?

  Half an hour later, Alex and Damon are strolling through the cobbled streets of Covent Garden. Damon pulls a cap down over his floppy fringe. He half listens as Alex tells him about his latest escapade in the Groucho Club.

• 18:29Alice Levine?

  Very 90s.

• 18:30Matt Forde?

  The Groucho is like the cat's lair of Britpop. That's where all the Thundercats.

• 18:37Alice Levine?

  Gather.

• 18:39Matt Forde?

  In truth, Damon would prefer to talk about Blur's latest record. The band has just finished recording their fourth album. He's calling it The Great Escape and he feels it's the best thing the band's ever written. He can't wait to start sharing the songs, but expectations are higher than they've ever been. Blur is now a household name. Their record label, EMI, is even suggesting they bring their release date forward to directly compete with Oasis. Get more publicity and a better chance at their first number one single. Damon takes a final drag of his cigarette as they come to the mosaic frontage of the Mars Bar. He's about to head in when Liam Gallagher emerges in his familiar green parka.

• 19:24Matt Forde?

  He locks eyes with Alex.

• 19:28Matt Forde?

  Damon holds out his hand, keen to avoid an altercation. To his surprise, Liam pushes it away and raises his hand. For a moment Damon thinks he's gonna hit him, but instead Liam thrusts his index finger towards him and Alex. Number fucking one. Yeah, congratulations. But Liam juts out his chin. Yeah, we deserved it. Where's yours? Damon's smile falters. He feels himself bristled. Alex jumps in. Parklife was the number one album, mate. Who fucking invited you? Damon isn't here for a fight. Look, I just swung by to... But Liam kicks back, directs his attention at Alex.

• 20:13Matt Forde?

  Nobhead, why don't you fuck off back to your art galleries with your other little live frontal rise? So you have read one book.

• 20:21Alice Levine?

  Ooh. This is nasty.

• 20:25Matt Forde?

  Where'd you go from there? No, I haven't actually. Read none.

• 20:27Alice Levine?

  Actually, Noel reads them out loud to me.

• 20:32Matt Forde?

  Damon's had enough. Mate, you wouldn't even be on this scene if it wasn't for us knocking down the fucking doors. He's sick of Liam's schoolyard bully tactics. A wave of anger rushes through him. If it's a head-to-head Liam wants, it's a head-to-head he'll get. Blur are going to get their first number one single this summer. They'll beat Oasis, and he'll make sure the whole country watches as they do it.

• 21:02Matt Forde?

  June 1995, Glastonbury Festival, Worthy Farm, Pilton. In the wings of the Pyramid Stage, Noel shifts nervously. He fishes a plectrum from the deep pockets of his duffel coat. In front of him, an endless mass of shining faces disappear into the horizon.

• 21:25Matt Forde?

  Then, as the band takes to the stage, he hears the vast crowd erupt into cheers. Gripping his guitar, he sends a jarring note exploding from the speaker. He hears Liam growl into the microphone. Better than Blur at any day! An ecstatic cheer rips through the crowd, as Noel launches into their opening song. Noel's managed to put his squabbles aside with Liam, and complete the second album, which he called 'What's the Story Morning Glory'. It's due to drop in just over a month's time, and Noel knows it's the best stuff he's ever written. He has to admit, even Liam stepped up his vocals.

• 22:07Matt Forde?

  An hour later, his body is still vibrating as he comes offstage. He heads straight for the bar. Liam is already giving an interview to Radio 1's Joe Wiley. He laughs as he hears Liam take a dig at Blur. I think we've got to get back to rock and roll, not Chas and Dave chimney-sweeping music. He takes in the rest of the scene in front of him. Pulp frontman Jarvis Cocker chatting with Supergas. Keith from The Prodigy locked in an arm wrestling contest with the boys from Dodgy. A year ago indie bands were the minority at Glastonbury. This year, they've taken over. He's about to order a second drink, when McGee's anxious face pushes through the crowd toward him. Can I have a word in praver?

• 22:51Matt Forde?

  He looks at him, concerned. His heart sinks at what Liam might have done now. In a quiet room, McGee fishes a sheet of paper from his jacket. It's a press release, about Blur's new record. Christ, can we not talk about Damon fucking Albarn for two seconds? I know, I know, but do you know what this means? Noel stares down at the piece of paper blankly. The release date for Blur's next single is August 14th. That's the exact same day as our release date! Noel scratches his head. Right, but their album's out in September, it doesn't make sense. McGee's wide eyes hold his gaze.

• 23:35Matt Forde?

  Exactly, they've done it on purpose! That little brick demon wants to fuck with us!

• 23:43Alice Levine?

  Provocative from Blur.

• 23:44Matt Forde?

  Yeah, because it's basically an unwritten agreement that you don't go up against each other. Both of you can have number one singles if you release them at different times. So this release date isn't a coincidence. Blur have taken a decision to move it to try and stop Oasis getting a number one.

• 24:00Alice Levine?

  It's such dirty tactics.

• 24:03Matt Forde?

  Noel can't believe it. Trading insults is one thing, but this could end up hitting everyone where it hurts. A number one single is the biggest thing a band can achieve. And to deliberately try and sabotage that. What the fuck are they playing at? Noel's frown deepens. Up to this point, Noel's let Liam take the lead in their phony battle with Blur. But now it feels real. These posh boys with their wanky lyrics aren't going to get away with this. All right, McGee, this means fucking war.

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• 25:31Speaker 04

  For decades, two legendary brands fought for the hearts of American bikers: Indian Motorcycle and Harley-Davidson. The battle looked a lot like Coke versus Pepsi or Ford versus Chevy. But tastes changed, and Indian didn't adapt fast enough. The icon all but died. Then came the con men, the dreamers, a string of spectacular failures that kept Indian in the grave, until one company finally got it. This is the story of an improbable revival and the reignition of an old rivalry. Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of the podcast Business Wars, and every season we bring you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world. Indian's new owners are going all in, but an existential crisis looms. Can Indian and Harley recruit enough younger riders to survive?

• 26:14Speaker 04

  Make sure to follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 26:33Matt Forde?

  July 1995, a film studio, London.

• 26:41Matt Forde?

  Blur guitarist Graham Coxon stares into the dressing room mirror. He's wearing a 1960s Milton's uniform, along with a royal blue overcoat with a peaked cap. Graham sighs. He's known Damon since secondary school, trusts him with his life, but right now he's having serious doubts about Blur's video for Country House. Blur to set, please. Blur to the set. Graham squints under the set's bright lights at a giant board game that fills the studio. At one end, there is a mousetrap the size of a car. On its side, the words Escape From The Rat Race.

• 27:23Matt Forde?

  The video's concept is about a man leaving London for a country retreat. It's basically a pop song about the property market.

• 27:32Alice Levine?

  Which I think is what the chart's missing.

• 27:34Matt Forde?

  It's about the whole second home in the country thing.

• 27:36Alice Levine?

  Cornwall are gonna love it.

• 27:40Matt Forde?

  Graham likes the high camp, garish imagery, but so far it seems like an excuse to ogle glamour models. He looks up as a door opens, feels his heart sink when a string of page three models wearing lingerie troop in. Not that the other members of the band seem to mind. Damon and Alex start giggling nearby. Alex has even roped in his mate, Damian Hurst, to direct it.

• 28:04Alice Levine?

  That's very cool.

• 28:06Matt Forde?

  Yeah, how would you describe Damian Hurst? A modern artist?

• 28:08Alice Levine?

  Well, this is the era of the young British artists, isn't it? The YBAs. So you've got Hurst, Emin, you've got White Reid, you've got all of the big names doing their, like, kooky, modern stuff. And the YBA stuff is actually really funny and kind of like commie tragic in places. So there's a sort of overlap with everyone's lyrics being a little bit sardonic, a little bit sarcastic, and obviously this video is very ironic.

• 28:32Matt Forde?

  Oh, no, no, no, the page three girls, they're ironically page three girls.

• 28:35Alice Levine?

  I can't believe you took that at face value. It's actually really embarrassing for you.

• 28:38Matt Forde?

  Graham watches Hurst greet the models. This way, ladies. Don't be shy. He turns to Graham. Right, I want you to chase them like you're trying to grab their bums, okay?

• 28:50Alice Levine?

  So what does this symbolise?

• 28:52Matt Forde?

  Um, this is a metaphor for, um, Margaret Thatcher's right to buy skin.

• 29:00Alice Levine?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, get it, get it.

• 29:02Matt Forde?

  And actually, I find it deeply moving.

• 29:08Matt Forde?

  Graham feels his chest tighten. He's always been impressed by Hurst, even intimidated by his brash attitude. He knows most bands would kill for the privilege of working with him. It's a bit misogynistic, isn't it? A bit Benny Hill? He watches Hurst snigger.

• 29:28Matt Forde?

  It's just a bit of fun, mate. Graham feels frozen under Hurst's glare. He hears Damon hiss in his ear. Just do it, Graham. He knows what he's doing. Graham spins round. It's like fucking Carry On Blur. We're better than this. He sees frustration flash in Damon's eyes. Then he slings a friendly arm around his shoulder. Can we talk outside?

• 29:55Matt Forde?

  In the car park, Graham pulls nervously on a cigarette. "I know that twat from Oasis has got under your skin, but all this birds, booze and football, it's not us, mate." He sees Damon flinch. "Fucking lighten up, Graham. We want a number one, not a fucking Pulitzer, sir." Graham burns with frustration, but Damon goes on. "Plus, this video will blow up on MTV." Graham hates that Damon is playing to the publicity machine. He read in one paper this morning that this has become a showdown. Blur are being pitched as the clean-cut, middle-class southern boys versus a group of rebellious, working-class northern lads. In another, he read in disbelief as a journalist pitched it as a fight between a pitbull and a poodle,

• 30:41Matt Forde?

  a squat and a mansion, an armpit and deodorant. He's not sure which Blur are even supposed to be. He just knows it's all bullshit. As Damon turns to leave, Graham shouts after him. "I don't want to be dragged into a fucking pantomime."

• 31:02Matt Forde?

  An hour later, Graham squirms in a bubble bath as a bikini-clad model tips water on him.

• 31:08Alice Levine?

  "Great to have that chat, then."

• 31:09Matt Forde?

  Beside him, Damon and Alex grin uncontrollably. As they break for lunch, Graham swigs wine from the bottle. Reminds himself it's only a video. Once they've seen off Oasis and got their number one, they can get back to their real focus: making music. Because if they don't, he won't stick around. If Damon can't put his silly feud behind him, there's no place for Graham in this band. He will leave Blur for good.

• 31:44Matt Forde?

  August 12, 1995. Creation Records, London. Alan McGee tilts his head. In the fluorescent light, he watches his assistant fiddling with an overhead projector.

• 31:57Alice Levine?

  "The stuff of childhood dreams, of course."

• 31:59Matt Forde?

  "Oh, school assemblies with a bit of acetate, handwritten lyrics to a hymn, projected in a way that meant you couldn't read a thing."

• 32:08Alice Levine?

  "I think we could probably trace a line between CEOs of today and the children in those assemblies who were chosen to do a quick change of the acetate for the next verse of the hymn. That was, you know, we were breeding the leaders of tomorrow."

• 32:23Matt Forde?

  Alan chuckles as he flicks through an article in The Guardian in which Julie Burchill describes Liam as a raving beauty who could turn a gay girl straight, and Damon as a shameless cutie who appeals to girls a little too old for horses and a little too young for men.

• 32:40Alice Levine?

  What on earth is going on? Is everyone alright?

• 32:42Matt Forde?

  This is particularly strange coming from the pen of Julie Burchill, who was one of the most ferocious writers of the 90s, but clearly loved these boys. She was part of that Groucho Club set as well, so as well as politics, the arts, music, football, journalists were rock and roll. Christ, even the fucking Guardian is getting involved. Right, what am I looking at darling? He looks up at the screen, takes in the cover of that week's NME, a mock-up of a boxing poster. Above photos of Liam and Damon are the words, "British Heavyweight Championship, Blur versus Oasis." Fucking brilliant!

• 33:25Matt Forde?

  After the initial shock at EMI moving their release date, McGee now sees it's a blessing. EMI are the big fishers in the music world. In comparison, he's a minnow. He couldn't buy this publicity if he tried. Oasis's single drops in two days' time, and Blur versus Oasis is everywhere. His assistant flicks through to the next headline. "Working Class Heroes Lead Art School Trendies." Then, "The Battle for Britpop." Yesterday evening, it was even a feature on the six o'clock news. The BBC called it "the biggest chart battle since The Beatles versus The Rolling Stones", and there were interviews with Damon and Noel.

• 34:07Matt Forde?

  He just wishes Noel had picked a stronger song than "Roll With It."

• 34:11Alice Levine?

  I don't think Alan's the only one to feel that.

• 34:13Matt Forde?

  Certainly, as a fan, I agree. And I think even Oasis, in retrospect, agree. When you think of the big Oasis songs, "Roll With It" is not one of their best, and yet this battle defines Oasis versus Blur, it defines music in the 90s, and "Country House" is nowhere near being Blur's best song, and "Roll With It" doesn't even make top 20 of Oasis's.

• 34:35Alice Levine?

  But do you think after they'd hit send on that, they thought, "Yeah, actually, we've gone with the wrong one"?

• 34:39Matt Forde?

  We've attached the wrong file!

• 34:41Alice Levine?

  Yeah, it's a clerical error.

• 34:45Matt Forde?

  McGee listens as his assistant goes through the publications running full-page ads. Breakfast shows who'll push the single. He runs the numbers in his head. He's throwing Creation's entire marketing budget at this campaign. He finally feels he has the might and capital to take on a behemoth like EMI.

• 35:05Matt Forde?

  He looks up as a door bangs open. A flustered PR clutches a sheaf of papers to his chest. His face is lined with worry. He holds out a page covered with columns of numbers. McGee grabs it, shakes his head. "Am I supposed to know what the fuck that means?" The PR gulps. McGee feels a flash of anger. "Spare it, O'Neil!" "It's a printing error. It means we can't guarantee all record sales will be registered." McGee feels his blood run cold. "I need this sorted now. Singles hit the shops in two days and everyone will cone." The press officer swallows hard.

• 35:49Matt Forde?

  "There's something else. EMI is also releasing Country House on three different formats, including cassette, and charging one pound less than us." Panic grips McGee's chest. His margins are already paper-thin without EMI undercutting him. "It's a fucking arms race!" McGee knows that all gloves are off. If he doesn't do something quickly, Creation risks getting battered. He stares at the bewildered faces of his staff. Takes a deep breath. He built this company from nothing. Bankrolled the label with wages from a second job at British Rail. He might not be a corporate giant like EMI, but he's never backed down from a challenge.

• 36:34Matt Forde?

  He snatches up the phone, dials Liam's number.

• 36:39Matt Forde?

  "I need you and Noel out there pushing the single. It's gonna go right to the wire." He hears a pause.

• 36:48Matt Forde?

  He's on holiday. McGee stares at the NME cover. I don't care where the fuck he is. He needs to get back here now. He slams the phone down. He doesn't care what it takes. He'll fly to Italy himself to collect Noel if he has to. He's taking control. He's calling the shots. And he's not going down without a fight.

• 37:21Matt Forde?

  August 20th, 1995. Creation Records, London.

• 37:28Matt Forde?

  Liam kills the scooter's engine, removes his helmet and straightens his parka. He grabs a paper from the nearby newsstand, reads the headline. Blur and Oasis chart battle D-Day. William Hill still has Blur as second favourites at odds of six to four. Liam jogs through the handful of journalists waiting outside Creation's offices. He and Noel have been doing all they can in the past few days to further sales. Noel has even been walking around in a t-shirt with 'Quoasis' on the front after Damon compared Roll With It to Status Quo. Liam climbs the stairs to the second floor, pushes open the door and sees the others already gathered.

• 38:14Matt Forde?

  Don't know about you lot, but I'm ready for a number one, number two. I don't, I'm ready for- He's gonna go for a poo. I- Like I said, they're charming in ways people don't always appreciate.

• 38:26Matt Forde?

  He hears a ripple of nervous laughter. Then McGee beckons them through to his office. The moment of truth, lads. Five chairs have been arranged in front of his desk. On a corner table Liam sees champagne on ice. Taking a seat, he feels a thrill of excitement. Pictures the celebrations that'll soon take place. He watches as McGee lifts the phone and turns on the speaker. He's calling the embargo chart results. Record execs get them a few hours before the public. Liam pictures Damon waiting at EMI, the smirk dropping from his face when the results are read. Then a recorded voice begins the top 40 countdown. At 38, Shaggy in the summertime.

• 39:12Matt Forde?

  A titter goes around the room, but soon falls silent. At 31-

• 39:18Matt Forde?

  Girl from Mars. Liam shifts in his seat, glances at Noel. At twenty, Supergirls, Alright. Some bangers in this chart.

• 39:28Alice Levine?

  Absolutely sensational.

• 39:30Matt Forde?

  At eighteen, Out Here Brothers, Boom Boom Boom. Now that's a fucking tune. Liam feels the tension evaporate. He catches Noel's eye and the two share a smile.

• 39:45Matt Forde?

  At twelve, The Charlatans, Just When You're Thinking Things Over. As they reach the top ten, Liam feels his stomach tighten. The air grows heavy. At four, Take That, Never Forget. At three, I Love You Baby, Original. It's now or never. At two.

• 40:12Matt Forde?

  Oasis, Roll With It.

• 40:16Alice Levine?

  No, even when you know it's coming.

• 40:20Matt Forde?

  It's like re-watching Gareth Southgate's Miss Penalty. Each time, I just sort of believe that it might go in. Liam feels his stomach drop. And then, he explodes with anger. I'm not having that, no fucking way. Blood pounds in his ears as he bolts for the door and heads out into the night.

• 40:47Matt Forde?

  An hour later, Soho, central London. Liam marches through Old Compton Street, then ducks into Greek Street. He wipes the sweat from his face. It's one of the hottest summers he can remember, and right now, he wishes it wasn't. He ignores the looks from passersby, shouts at one of them. Can't help it if I'm the main event, mate, keep moving. He takes the can from his pocket, has a gulp, then lights a cigarette before he pushes his way past the receptionist at the private members' club Soho House. He heads up the stairs. He has to pause as his eyes adjust to the dim light. He steadies his feet, then continues up.

• 41:33Matt Forde?

  He's tracked down Blur, and he's come to tell them exactly what he thinks of their achievement. He charges into a room, but to his surprise, finds a lone businessman. The man stares at him in shock.

• 41:46Alice Levine?

  Imagine you're doing your profit and loss, and then Liam Gallagher just piles into your pre-booked meeting room.

• 41:53Matt Forde?

  Oh, sorry, mate, I've got this till three. Liam curses. He must have got the wrong venue. He's about to leave when he hears the man speak up. I think you're looking for the top floor. Liam stares at him, then turns and heads further up into the darkness of the stairwell. He finally finds the correct floor, forces his way in, heads swivel as he prowls through the plush rooms, until he spots Alex laughing in a crowd. Liam hears Alex babble onto someone about a new London art exhibition. Damien is a visionary. Liam saunters over. It's about fucking time you jokers got a number one.

• 42:37Matt Forde?

  Alex stares at him, then wraps his arm around the girl he's with, and whispers something in her ear. Liam sees her giggle. We were just talking about Damien's no sense of absolute corruption. Liam realises Damien Hurst is standing next to him. Liam is momentarily thrown. He didn't expect it to play this way. Uh, it's Damien's exhibition. He knows Alex is baiting him. He sees the girl staring back pointedly, Alex's grinning face. He hates this art school knob. You mean the diced up fucking cows that come with a manual? Alex rolls his eyes. He looks at Hurst. It's all bollocks, mate.

• 43:22Matt Forde?

  He turns his attention back to Alex. He sees a wry grin forming on Alex's face. He's again surprised when Alex takes a step forward, flings an arm around Liam's shoulder. Come on, mate, I'm only joking. Let's be honest, they were both shit songs.

• 43:40Alice Levine?

  There's a real swagger about Alex, isn't there? He's taken his life in his hands.

• 43:44Matt Forde?

  I didn't realise how much of an actual battle the Battle of Britpop was.

• 43:48Alice Levine?

  Because we're told, aren't we, over and over again, that it was just a kind of concoction of the media. But there obviously was, as you say, a personality clash at the centre of it, and also kind of ideological clash, is that fair?

• 44:01Matt Forde?

  Yeah, it's not just that they're occasionally coming face to face with each other. At all times, a risk that this could genuinely descend into a violent fight.

• 44:10Matt Forde?

  Liam jerks the armour away, growls. You're fucking wrong. That song is top. That's why I hate you and your shite band. You don't care about the music. Swaying, he fixes Alex with a fiery glare. Enjoy it while it lasts, yeah? This time you got lucky, but it ain't over. You'll see, we're gonna be the biggest band in the fucking world. Liam stumbles back down the stairs, out into the night. He vows his words won't be an empty promise. Blair might have won the battle, but Oasis will win the war.

• 44:52Speaker 05

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redman always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things

• 45:36Speaker 05

  that come back to haunt us. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 45:53Speaker 06

  There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and The Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create.

• 46:36Speaker 06

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.

• 47:00Matt Forde?

  February 19, 1996, Earl's Court Exhibition Centre, London. Liam smooths his freshly styled sideburns, teases his short beard. He's at the Brits, an oasis up against Blur in four categories. Oasis's album What's the Story has sold a record-breaking 345,000 copies in its first week in the UK and spent 10 weeks at number one in the UK Albums Chart. Liam and Noel have backed it up with a grueling tour schedule, and What's the Story is even making inroads in the US. But if Blur win tonight, none of that will matter. It will be a public humiliation he can't bear.

• 47:45Alice Levine?

  Dare I say, a lot of this is in Liam's head. It's sort of elevated failure, isn't it? Even though getting an award is sort of a bonus, it's that thing of it being very much on a platform for people to see.

• 47:58Matt Forde?

  They might as well read out, and the result is, they're better than you. He pulls his date in for a kiss, but he can't take his eyes off the table a few metres to his left. He scowls at Damon as he hands out drinks to his friends. Then, looks to the stage as in excess frontman Michael Hutchence reads the nominees for Best Video. It's one of the categories they're nominated in. He watches as Hutchence fumbles with the envelope. He takes a breath. All right, and the winner for Best Video is Oasis, Wonderwall. Liam feels a wave of relief flood his body. He swaggers to the stage and takes in the beaming faces of the audience.

• 48:43Matt Forde?

  Knows that whatever happens, this victory is theirs. As he returns to his table, he tries to catch a glimpse of Damon, but the house lights have dimmed. On the stage, he hears Noel throw a barbed comment at Hutchence. Has-beens should present awards to fucking gonna-bees. Liam grins to himself. Tonight, they're taking no prisoners. Thirty minutes later, Lenny Kravitz calls the band to the stage a third time. This time, to accept the award for Best Album. Liam grips the podium, scans the crowd. Then, he sees him. Damon's cherubic face staring back.

• 49:26Matt Forde?

  He steals a glance at Noel, feels a rush of excitement. I'd like to thank all the fans. He pauses, sees a mischievous twinkle in his brother's eye. All the people.

• 49:40Alice Levine?

  Oh, God.

• 49:41Matt Forde?

  In unison, they lean toward the microphone.

• 49:45Matt Forde?

  All the people, so many people, and they walk on end in end, end in end through their shit life.

• 50:00Alice Levine?

  I bet you've watched that a lot of times, haven't you?

• 50:02Matt Forde?

  If I've had a couple of beers, I will open my laptop and watch either this Tony Blair speeches or old football clips. And I think all of these things have been covered in British scandal series.

• 50:20Matt Forde?

  He's done what he promised. He's beaten Damon, proven he's the best. In just two years, they've gone from playing in their mum's living room to winning every award going. Now it's time to cement their status as the biggest rock and roll band, not just in Britain, but in the world.

• 50:45Matt Forde?

  Six months later, August 10th, 1996, Nebworth House, Hertfordshire. Noel braces himself against the helicopter's vibrating walls, stares open mouth through the window as a mass of ant-like figures fill the expanse below. He looks at the hulking frame of the Tudor Gothic stately home looming underneath him, feels his stomach lurch as the helicopter begins its descent. Liam and Noel thought it was crazy when their promoter first suggested Nebworth. Two nights, playing to a quarter of a million people.

• 51:21Alice Levine?

  A quarter of a million people? How many people go to Glastonbury? 200,000, something like that? The O2, 20,000? Like, just to give you some scale, like, it's mad.

• 51:33Matt Forde?

  He was even more surprised when the gig sold out in minutes. 5% of the population applied for tickets. In last night's news, Trevor McDonald announced it as "The Rock Concert of the Decade". Others have dubbed it "The Woodstock of the 90s". Noel is suddenly hit by what he's achieved. It's been five years since he joined Liam's band, three since Oasis were signed, and in a few hours, together, they'll do something no other indie band has achieved.

• 52:05Matt Forde?

  Fucking nights. He looks at his brother. All he can do is nod in agreement. A few minutes later, the helicopter hits the ground. He jumps from the cabin and is bundled into a golf cart and taken to what his promoter is calling the VVIP area. He takes in the sofas made of Levi jeans, the pinball machines. It's carnage every which way he looks. Footballers, models, musicians. Jarvis Cocker is playing a giantscape electric set. Simply read Mick Hucknall appears to be chatting up Martine McCutcheon. He does a double take as the barmaid pours Martine a pint of champagne.

• 52:47Alice Levine?

  Bloody hell, the livers of the 90s.

• 52:50Matt Forde?

  As cool as I want to find this, a pint of champagne is a terrible idea. Go flat and warm. There's no way she's finishing that.

• 52:57Alice Levine?

  And that is the mat we've missed.

• 53:00Matt Forde?

  He's almost knocked over as one of the band's entourage charges past him. She's carrying a pair of heels, claiming she needs to helicopter in some trainers for Kate Moss.

• 53:09Alice Levine?

  This is amazing. Is this true?

• 53:11Matt Forde?

  It is 100% true. This tent alone is a bigger venue than most bands will ever play. He can't imagine how much this hospitality is costing creation. He can't quite compute the scale. He needs to duck out to collect his thoughts in his private dressing room.

• 53:31Matt Forde?

  But he arrives to find it full of journalists. He's fired questions. Are Oasis now bigger than Blur? Bigger than the Beatles? He hears himself answer. We sold more records than the Beatles. We played bigger gigs than the Beatles. I say, yeah, we are bigger than the Beatles. We're the biggest band in Britain of all time, ever. Noel isn't sure if he believes it, but he doesn't have time to think as another journalist fires a second question at him. What's next? Where's there to go from here? Noel stutters. He doesn't know the answer. His promoter steps in and jokes that Oasis will do a pay-per-view in Antarctica.

• 54:14Matt Forde?

  A few hours later, the band are ready. There is no one backstage now. Everyone is out there. It feels like the whole country is out there. All he can hear is a wall of noise. It's that same sound before every gig, just before the band comes on. But on a scale no one's heard before. And then, they are walking onto the stage. In front of them, just a mass of bodies, screaming, eyes like saucepans. Noel watches Liam walk to the front of the stage, dressed in all white, arms raised out to the adoring crowd.

• 54:58Matt Forde?

  He's almost like a god. They've got everything they have ever wanted, done more than any British band since The Beatles. But as he kicks his guitar into the opening chords of Columbia, he hears the sea of voices scream the first line back at Liam. There we were, now here we are. All this confusion, nothing's the same to me. And despite everything, despite the elation, the joy, the pure euphoria of that moment, he does feel confused. Because he knows deep within himself, it doesn't get bigger than this.

• 55:38Matt Forde?

  And if it can't get bigger, that means there's only one way for Oasis to go. Down.

• 55:55Matt Forde?

  Hi, I'm Kenya Barris. And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects. We're bringing you fresh, new conversations from guests like Anderson Paak, David Zedars, Ryan Howard, Rich Roll, Amy Sherrill, and many more. Sign up for a free trial to Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America, one of George Washington's most effective.

• 56:24Speaker 07

  of commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men, so he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defected the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress to the enemy and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts.

• 57:06Speaker 07

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 57:19Matt Forde?

  From Wondery and Samizdat Audio, this is the second episode in our series, Nolan Liam.

• 57:25Alice Levine?

  A quick note about our dialogue. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.

• 57:32Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read, some might say, The Definitive Story of Oasis by Richard Bows, The Last Party by John Harris, Creation Stories by Alan McGee, and watch the Supersonic Documentary, directed by Matt White Cross. British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.

• 57:51Alice Levine?

  And me, Alice Levine.

• 57:52Matt Forde?

  British Scandal is a production of Wondery and Samizdat Audio. Written by Jack McKay. Additional writing by Matt Ford and Alice Levine. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. For Samizdat, our producer is Chika Ayers. Our senior producer is Joe Sykes. For Wondery, our series producer is Theodora Leludis, and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Jessica Radburn, and Marshall Louis.

• 58:32Matt Forde?

  You stepped out for your morning jog, except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 59:02Speaker 05

  In the summer of 1881, US Army Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and 24 other men embarked on an ambitious scientific mission to the northernmost reaches of the Arctic. But despite several triumphs of discovery, the men would soon face tragedy. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, after Adolphus Greeley and his men arrive at their destination more than 1,000 miles above the Arctic Circle, they get to work collecting scientific data and exploring the frigid landscape. But when resupply ships fail to reach them two summers in a row, they're forced to set out on a desperate search for rescue,

• 59:47Speaker 05

  and not all of them will make it home. Follow American History Tellers wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American History Tellers: Greeley Arctic Expedition, early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.