Harry v Wills | What The Butler Saw | 4

Grant Harrold served King Charles and Princes William and Harry for years. He saw the formalities, the wedding days, the pranks played behind palace doors. Now he's talking. From the surprising way he first met a young Harry, to what Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor was really like - this is royal life with the filter off. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:10Matt Forde?

  From Audible, I'm Matt Forde.

• 0:11Alice Levine?

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 0:13Matt Forde?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 0:27Matt Forde?

  So Alice, at the end of our Harry and Will series, would you ever fancy marrying into the Royal Family?

• 0:32Alice Levine?

  No, actually, let me think about that. No, that was just completely nuts. I mean, family feuds are dramatic enough, but a family feud in the public eye, my god. Documented, photographed, gossiped about, poured over on social media. I mean, it's honestly the stuff of nightmares.

• 0:50Matt Forde?

  How did it make you feel about the Royal Brothers?

• 0:53Alice Levine?

  We really went through all kinds of emotions in this series, didn't we? Which we always do with British Scandal. But you sort of yo-yo between these extremes of feeling incredibly sorry for these young men who had to mourn their mother so publicly. And then obviously these instances of extreme privilege, where you feel like, really, what are we talking about in, you know, in real terms? Oh, no, sorry, you've had your title taken away. You know, there's real stuff going on in the world. So some of it felt like tabloid fodder and other moments of it felt really relatable. And I'm sure a lot of people can empathise with the feeling of becoming estranged from family members.

• 1:32Matt Forde?

  Yes, no one embodies stiff-up a little more than the Royal Family. I mean, even that unofficial motto, never complain, never explain, really sums up their complicated relationship with their own privilege. Harry has given us a bit of a glimpse into that. So it's made me desperate to see more of what goes on behind closed doors in the Royal household. So for today's guest, I have literally the perfect person to take us there.

• 1:55Alice Levine?

  I think I've got it. Is it the carpenter that made the doors of the Royal household?

• 2:00Matt Forde?

  It's a really clever answer.

• 2:01Alice Levine?

  Thank you.

• 2:02Matt Forde?

  But would it make a great episode?

• 2:03Alice Levine?

  Maybe not.

• 2:05Matt Forde?

  No. We have a man that was butler to King Charles and Queen Camilla, valet to Prince William and be on your best behaviour because he's also an etiquette expert. We are speaking to Grant Harold after this.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  With the Venture X Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. Plus, big purchasing power means you can spend more and earn more. The Capital One Venture X Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 2:34Speaker 03

  Confidence. It's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life. The power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska. And in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 3:08Matt Forde?

  Grant, welcome to British Scandal. When did you first meet Prince Harry?

• 3:12Speaker 04

  Thank you, Emio. And when did I meet Prince Harry? So it was just after I started working for his father, the now king, on Easter 2004. And it was probably a few months into that when I actually got to meet him for the first time.

• 3:24Alice Levine?

  And what were your first impressions?

• 3:27Speaker 04

  So with Harry, I was in the kitchen of Highgrove, which is the king's country house. And I was talking to another chef. And suddenly somebody shouted oi. And as I turned around, a water balloon was coming towards me. And I remember looking past the balloon all so quick. And I just saw this chap stand. And I thought, oh, that's. And as I thought, Harry, it hit me and exploded on me. And then another one then came towards me and did the same. And then I realized he's got a whole load of these. And so I ran into the ladder. And I could hear him still out the other side of the door. And there was a window. And I remember thinking, I wonder if I can get through this. It was a tiny little window. And it had a fly net on it to stop flies coming in.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  And I took the net off and I climbed out the window. And I was a bit like a champagne cup coming out of a bottle, you know, through this. It was so small. And I landed on the earth or the grass the other side. And I kind of stood myself up and brushed myself down and shouted back. Through into the kitchen, tried to get me now if you can, you know, thinking I'm gonna go along with this. And then just started laughing and then I had oi and I thought that sounds really close. And I looked up and what he had done, he'd ran from the kitchen to the upstairs rooms, leaned out the window and then started dropping the water balloons from above. So now they were hitting near my head and exploding all over me. And then I had to kind of run, run away to stop him through more. So that was my first introduction.

• 4:51Alice Levine?

  What a job interview.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  That was a great interview. He'll be great, you know, if you go for an interview with him, just make sure you take a, an umbrella with you.

• 4:58Alice Levine?

  That is wild. And did you think, I'm not sure I want to do this, or did you think this is gonna be fun?

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Opposite, I thought this is great, you know, because, because I've grown up and known about the royal family and mine respect. And then obviously his grandmother and his father, I thought it was gonna be really formal and it was nothing like that. So it was, it was good to get that little insight into what it was gonna be like.

• 5:17Matt Forde?

  And would you have been allowed to retaliate?

• 5:20Speaker 04

  Oh God, I did. God, I many a times I'd retaliate, oh no. What was interesting, the practical jokes are very much part of how it works. And you need those practical jokes because it's such a, obviously the role of what you do and the work they do is also very serious and very grown up. And so behind the closed doors, the fun side of it was great. I would never retaliate against the king who also did practical jokes on me. And the queen, but obviously with William and Harry, it was slightly different. But I used to kind of like try to scare them, like I'd jump out from a, behind a door or something. A lot of comedy used to go on.

• 5:55Alice Levine?

  I obviously have to ask what practical jokes the now king pulled on you?

• 5:59Speaker 04

  He played the best, they couldn't even compete with him. The most famous thing that he did to me was I was at Castle of May, which was the castle way up, way up the top of Scotland. And as a new butler learning about these different homes, you kind of spend a day getting to know it and look around it. At the end of the night, about half ten at night, the butler said, oh, the housekeeper's invited us to go and have a, a dram. So we're gonna go and have a drink and the housekeeper offered me a drink and so we're having a drink. And then they start telling ghost stories and I believe in ghosts, I so believe in ghosts. And I'm starting to get a bit worried because I'm in a really old castle. My room's quite scary as it is and they were telling ghost stories.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  And once she'd finished the stories, the clock started chiming on the mantel and she looked at her watch and she, oh yes, it's, it's time, time to go to bed. And at that point, everybody ran out of different doors and vanished and it was just me and the housekeeper. And I looked to her and I said, well, would you come with me? And she said, I'm not that kind of lady. And I said, no, no, I don't mean like that. I said, I said, I'm actually a bit scared. And she said, oh, Grant, you know, you don't be so silly. You've got to grow up. She said, no one's going to do anything to you. And she, but when you go up to your room, please remember that below your room is His Royal Highness's bedroom. So don't go and start jumping around or something because you'll wake him up. So as I'm going up the spiral staircase, I'm thinking, I wonder if they'll scare me. And I thought, this is crazy. This is the royal household. They wouldn't, they wouldn't scare you. As I got to my bedroom, I walked in and the first thing I did was drop to the floor.

• 7:25Speaker 04

  Because in every horror movie, it's under the bed. So I look under the bed, nothing under the bed. I go and check behind the curtain, nothing behind the curtain. But in the corner, there's a door that led into a turret from like one of these Disney movies. And I went in there and there's nothing. And I thought, oh, this is stupid. When I turned around, behind my bedroom door was a six foot mannequin of a, basically a footman in, in uniform from the Queen Mother's time. I screamed and screamed and I couldn't physically close my jaw for screaming. And when I stopped screaming, all I could hear was this laughter echoing everywhere. Anyway, so then I decided to get the mannequin out of the room. So I go to move him and my one fell over.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  And as I'm dragging him out of the room with my, one foot in the door, the other dragging him out, his buckle under, his trousers came down. And now it does look like I'm dragging a, a man out of my room. And the chef came out of her room at the other end and she saw me and she said, Grant, what are you doing? And I said, this is not what it looks like. And she said, you've only been here five minutes. I said, no, no, no. I said, this is not real. I said, this, this is a dummy. And she said, that's what they all say. And then she helped me get him out of the room. Anyway, I go back to bed, following when I go down to breakfast. I got there slightly late, so breakfast has already begun. The now king's sitting there and he, I remember he looked at me and he says, oh, how was last night? And I said, very good, thank you, sir. Good, good. So everything was okay? I said, yeah, very good, sir. Very good. Yes.

• 8:50Speaker 04

  Everything, nothing happened. Well, I said, well, actually, sir, you might have heard me scream. I went, why? I said, because a mannequin was putting my room behind my bedroom door. No, why? Why? Why did they do that? I said, I don't know, sir. They just put a mannequin by my door and it's the one, I think it lives down in the kitchen. He said, Grant, I'm so sorry. He said, you must think we're awful. This is the most, you know, they're all a household. How can we, how can we do this to you? I'm so sorry. I said, don't worry about it. So it's fine. I'm, I said, I'm really sorry if I woke you up. And he said, no, no, no. So he goes back to stealing his tea or whatever. And I go to walk out and then he goes, oh, Grant. He said, I've got to tell you something. I said, what? So he said, I did know it. I planned it. And that's when I looked at him and he just started chuckling and looked back down at his tea and I just fought through thinking, wow.

• 9:35Speaker 04

  Okay, this is what, this is the level.

• 9:37Alice Levine?

  I'm in the madhouse.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  This is the level of what I've come into. What was William like the first time you met him? So that was so different to Harry. First time I met William was in the staff room at Highgrove Archery, interestingly. And I remember the thing that struck me about William was how tall he was, if I can be completely frank, how handsome he is. And also his eyes, not that I ever met Princess Diana, but he, it was, I imagine, looking at Princess Diana. And he was ever so polite and he, you know, he kind of said, you know, how nice to see you kind of thing. And, and he put his hand out and we shook hands and that was it really. But then I had a panic because I thought, I don't know what to call him. Is it his Royal Highness? Is it Prince William? Is it sir? So I went to just after this, but an hour later, I got to his room and he says, everything okay?

• 10:22Speaker 04

  And I said, I'm really sorry. I just want to get this right. I don't know how to address you. Is it your highness? Is it Prince William? Is it, you know, sir? He went, oh, no, no, I'm just William. So I said, so I can call you William? He said, yeah, yeah, you just call me William. That's fine. You just call me William. And then I looked at him and I don't know why, but I looked at him and said, oh, that's fine. You can call me Grant.

• 10:42Speaker 04

  You know, that moment you think, duh, why did I say that? And he looked at me and just kind of smiled and I thought, okay, I'm now going to leave your presence. I'm going to take myself back downstairs.

• 10:50Alice Levine?

  Good to clarify.

• 10:51Speaker 04

  Just to clarify. And he was great fun though. He was, he was great to be around as well. What I'm trying to say, the two boys, you can tell, totally different characters.

• 10:59Alice Levine?

  I'm wondering, everyone talks about the heir and the spare, of course. Did that difference feel real to you?

• 11:07Speaker 04

  No, not at all. I mean, that's what's so interesting because when you were there, they were very much a family. You looked at the family and thought, well, that's, that's the future of the monarchy. Somewhere in that group's the future between those two. But you didn't see it any other way. It's only as the years have gone on, it's become more and more very clear that that's the future king and that's the brother.

• 11:29Matt Forde?

  And what was the dynamic between them? Did you sense any rivalry?

• 11:32Speaker 04

  None, absolutely none. I mean,

• 11:37Speaker 04

  if there was rivalry, it would be competitive, fun rivalry. Jeez, you know, don't get them playing a game of Monopoly together because, you know, it would be, they were so competitive. But nothing, if I'm being completely honest, you know, nothing that would have, no shouting, no falling out, no not speaking to you, none of that, not one sign of that at all. The two of them are very, very close.

• 12:00Alice Levine?

  I'm wondering if you noticed a difference in how they approached relationships, you know, did it seem like William would meet somebody and think, could this person be the future queen? And Harry, obviously known for having a number of girlfriends.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  So Catherine was on the scene literally the whole time I was there. So from when I started, you'd already been dating her for maybe about a year, maybe two years at that point. I think he knew even way back then that she was the perfect queen material. Where Harry didn't have that kind of pressure. He was with Chelsea Davies at the time when I was there. And from memory, again, that was the only, more or less maybe the only girlfriend I think he had when I was there. I think he dated her for quite a long time. And then sadly, obviously that, that did come to an end. But there definitely wasn't the same pressure. I think if he had moved on from her, there wasn't the issue. And I think for William, I think his father and grandmother very much supported this idea because rather than William, can you imagine if he dated someone for two years and thought, no, that's not right, and go on to the next one, this one, which is kind

• 13:00Speaker 04

  of, I suppose, what his father was trying to do, trying to find the right one. With William, almost from, you know, such a young age, he knew. So I think maybe with the relationship between Catherine, I think everybody probably thought this could be really good.

• 13:14Matt Forde?

  Their lives are obviously as privileged as it's possible to be, but there are unique pressures that face them.

• 13:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:20Matt Forde?

  What do you think those pressures are and did you ever see that pressure get to them?

• 13:24Speaker 04

  I think one of the biggest pressures that I remember, only because it was widely discussed, was when, very similar to William's mother, when the press obviously became more curious about them. And, you know, you see, very similar to Princess Diana, you see the press, you know, outside of work or outside of home. And I think that was tricky for her because conjugal people might think they don't get protection. They only get it the minute an engagement is announced. It's immediate. I've seen it because I've been there when it's happened. It's extraordinary. They arrive at the house in their own car, no protection, nothing. Everything kind of kicks off suddenly in the news, engagement, and they leave the house with a security detail. It's that quick. When you see it happen, it's really cool.

• 14:08Alice Levine?

  Was a rift between the brothers hard for you to believe, having seen what you'd seen? Did they genuinely feel like best friends at one point?

• 14:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, 100%. The fallout with William and Harry, I doubted it when it all broke a few years ago because I knew how close they were and they were absolutely best friends. They did everything together. I was kind of saying to the media, I don't believe it. I find it really hard to believe, thinking, well, this is just ridiculous. This is nonsense. And then as it continued and I thought, wow, this is actually, this is actually happening. They have fallen, right? And obviously it was true, which was really sad. I don't think we actually know what's caused it. I think this is what puzzles me. There's obviously something caused it and everyone's assuming this or that. I don't understand how you could go from being so close to somebody, you protect them and you, you've got their back and everything, to suddenly being, you can't even be in the same room, you know?

• 15:01Speaker 04

  And the comments that come out from them, you know, from Harry, it's so hard to understand what would have caused that. So something big's caused that and I don't know if it is just what everyone's thinking. I don't know if there's more to it.

• 15:12Matt Forde?

  Have you read Harry's book?

• 15:14Speaker 04

  No, I listened to some of the audio and I don't necessarily, I don't believe what he's saying because his, do you know what the Queen once said? And I love it. Reflections may differ.

• 15:25Speaker 04

  So when my book came out, it was funny because a lot of people commented saying that my stories of Harry and William and Queen Kim and King Charles were very different to Harry's stories. I mean, I wasn't there for all of it, but I was there for part of it. And that was the biggest thing that came back was people were saying to me, your memories of this wonderfully happy family are so different what he said. I was there the night before the wedding. I was on duty. I remember all that so well. And so what Harry was saying, maybe he had a different feeling inside and maybe he just didn't voice that. That's completely possible. But I just know that what he was kind of putting across and what I put across are very, very, very different memories.

• 16:38Speaker 05

  If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. It's destroying athlete, creator, and YouTube Maxer. YouTube Premium enhances how I use YouTube with awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite training videos before I hit the gym. So no wifi doesn't turn leg day into loading day. Plus, I get ad-free videos, background play, and so much more. YouTube Premium is like YouTube got some extra gains. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium.

• 17:08Speaker 06

  Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have wifi. Because we all know airplane wifi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get background play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. So try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. That's a mouthful.

• 17:42Alice Levine?

  Grant, we can't talk about Harry without talking about Meghan. Do you remember the first time you heard that she was on the scene? Do you remember what you were told?

• 17:51Speaker 04

  So the first time I heard about Meghan, I didn't know who Meghan was. And I was asked to do an interview for a well-known paper. And it was an interview on how to date royals. So I was given the advice on what you should and shouldn't do. And then I remember during the interview, they said, oh, do you know Harry has actually dated? And I said, no, I said, I didn't know that. And they said the name of the girl, and I didn't know who she was. And I was, I'm happy for him. And the next day, in the national press, all over the press, it said that the King's former butler has confirmed that Harry's in a relationship with Meghan Markle. And I'm thinking, what? And when I say front page, I mean, front page of The Sun, front page of News of the World, front page of everything, everything.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  I was getting calls the night before from the team that managed me saying, we have a problem because tomorrow you're going to be front page news. And I even said, I don't know who Meghan is. I don't know who she is. I have no idea who she is. And suddenly I was in this extraordinary position where suddenly I was literally front page news confirming the relationship. But I didn't confirm the relationship. I didn't even know about the relationship. And it caused a bit of a, a bit of a problem because obviously, you know, the palace were kind of thinking, why are you confirming he's in a relationship? And he's not in a relationship. I said, I haven't. Because obviously Harry and Meghan went too happy about it. And thankfully, they believed me and it kind of moved on.

• 19:12Matt Forde?

  And once you were aware of her, did you think she was a good match for him?

• 19:16Speaker 04

  Yes. Oh, absolutely. I didn't. If I'm completely honest, because of her background, also, you know, she very openly talks about, you know, a black lady. And I thought this is great for the royal family because I know what for the royal family, that, you know, they don't discriminate. And I thought this is great because it's a very modern royal family. And the fact the Queen's obviously happy about it and they're all, you know. Did I think they would marry? I didn't, that bit I wasn't sure about because I didn't, you know, Harry being in a relationship for so long and then moving on to the next one, you don't really know, you know, you don't know if this is the one. But obviously as time went on, it became, it became clearer and clearer. And when the engagement was announced, do you remember? Everybody was so excited about it.

• 19:59Speaker 04

  And can I also say, has anyone here been to the, did anyone get invited to the wedding?

• 20:05Alice Levine?

  Oh, did you now?

• 20:06Speaker 04

  I went, yeah, I got invited through another member of the household. I went and it was a wonderful wedding. St George's was full. So what they arranged was that you could, which was even better because I've been to royal weddings in there before. But what was better was we sat on the lawn, on the grass next to the chapel, you would have seen it. And we were all there and we had picnics at the end of the long, long, long, long, long ceremony. I remember the royal family came out the door opposite, I believe it's called the Galileo door, I think. And the Queen led the way with Prince Philip and other members of the family. And we were basically standing just across from them so we could hear what was all being said. And Prince Philip turned around to the Queen and he said, bang, if that's over. And she just looked at him and smiled and looked away. Now, I don't think, to be very clear, I don't think we're talking about the actual wedding.

• 20:51Speaker 04

  I think it was just the length of the ceremony was such a long ceremony. But it was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful occasion. I remember the coach going past and great pictures of the two of them. A fairy tale wedding, or so we thought.

• 21:03Alice Levine?

  Did you ever worry for Meghan about entering the royal family?

• 21:06Speaker 04

  Hundred percent. The thing about the royal family, whether you work for them or marrying into them, your life changes. I was called in turn office in London. They said to me that from now on, even when you've left, your life's never quite the same. Now, how true that is for me, I mean, wow, I mean, I'm so lucky that I've left and I get to do what I'm doing. And, and very much that is, you know, what people are most interested in is my time there. And they did warn me, you know, they tell you, that's why they say, you know, that they hope that you use it for the right things. But this is very much going to be a life changer. Now, that's from a butler's point of view, a staff member. And so if, as a family member, when you marry into it, it's going to change your life, whether you like it or not, whether you stay married or not, it will absolutely change your life. I think what I learnt very quickly, even working for them, you've got to adapt your life to their lifestyle.

• 21:49Speaker 04

  You're given these schedules and you've got to follow the schedule. Because if you don't follow the schedule, then how can they follow their schedule and then it all becomes a mess? So it's quite regimented, it's quite disciplined. And that's why a lot of army personnel work for the royal household. Now, marrying into the family, it's the same. Every day they're given the same schedules, the same itineraries, things are booked six months in advance. See, you married a prince tomorrow and you go into the palace and you think, oh, next Tuesday, I'm going to invite my girlfriends over for lunch. We'll have a lovely lunch in the, in one of the beautiful staterooms. Mm hmm. That's not going to happen.

• 22:22Matt Forde?

  But she could invite her male friends as well.

• 22:24Alice Levine?

  Even worse.

• 22:25Matt Forde?

  I want, and if you're marrying a prince, someone will pop around for lunch.

• 22:28Speaker 04

  Well, that's what worries me.

• 22:29Alice Levine?

  Can I at least report?

• 22:31Alice Levine?

  Can I at least record a podcast in one of the ballrooms?

• 22:34Speaker 04

  Yes, that's why I don't think you're gonna marry a prince.

• 22:36Alice Levine?

  Right, okay, sure.

• 22:37Matt Forde?

  Is that the only reason?

• 22:38Speaker 04

  Well.

• 22:39Alice Levine?

  I don't think we need to go into this.

• 22:40Speaker 04

  Well, do you know the sad bit is, of course it'd be great to see you can go and do all that, but you can't. And the reason you can't is because the diary is basically day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute is planned out. And it's months in advance. And I think that's why I felt for her because I thought if she goes into that environment thinking she can go in, and it's a bit like the Princess Diaries, did I say, or something like that, if you think you can go in.

• 23:04Alice Levine?

  I love that documentary.

• 23:05Speaker 04

  So die, so die. If you can go in and think you can follow that kind of lifestyle, as lovely as it is, it's not realistic. That's where it goes wrong. That's what I think.

• 23:13Alice Levine?

  You kind of march to the beat of the royal family's drum, not the other way around.

• 23:18Speaker 04

  You can imagine. And it's not the royal family, it's really not. It's the whole, as it's been called, the firm, it's the institution. It's been like it for centuries, you know, and it's, and even though it's evolved and it's changed, everything's kind of done in a certain way.

• 23:30Matt Forde?

  So when you initially observed Harry and William, it seemed harmonious. We now know that a fork in the road appears and they've gone their separate ways. When did you first realise that things were turning sour between them?

• 23:43Speaker 04

  Not when I was there. When I discovered it was through somebody in the household, a really good friend. And I was speaking to them and saying all this nonsense. And I remember they said, might not be nonsense. And that's when I thought, oh, and they didn't want to break confidence by telling me one way or the other. But the way they said it, I thought, okay. Then Harry obviously started talking about it and everything, and then it became clearer and clearer.

• 24:05Alice Levine?

  Even close siblings squabble and quarrel.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:09Alice Levine?

  I mean, particularly close siblings, I would say. Did you ever see those kind of angry streaks or any streaks of jealousy?

• 24:17Speaker 04

  No, not one. That's what I mean. If I had seen, let's just be honest, if I'd seen a fallout or say I'd seen some jealousy or something, then I would have believed it. They were very.

• 24:30Speaker 04

  They just did such a good way with each other. And Harry, I felt Wayne was the bigger brother. And you know, Harry, you could see that was a dynamic between the two of them. Wayne was probably maybe a little bit more, a little bit more serious possibly. But I'm saying that Harry used to bring out the fun side of him. You've seen that, you've seen them at that airbase where they're doing an interview. And Harry starts messing around and Wayne's trying to be serious. And then Wayne then starts messing around. So Harry was very good at bringing out the fun side of William, definitely. And Wayne was quite good at kind of keeping Harry in line a little bit. You know, sometimes probably reminding him to remember he's a royal or whatever. You know, I think he was quite good at that.

• 25:11Alice Levine?

  At the time, there was a lot of talk and excitement about the four, about Harry and Will's and Kate and Meghan. Do you remember at the time, talking to your former colleagues or your friends from your time with the family? And what the kind of energy was around the four of them?

• 25:29Speaker 04

  At the very beginning, it was genuinely all good. But I also then got the feeling, do you know, I remember there was an event that they did before we were there. And I was kind of informed that maybe they weren't quite as close as we was. But again, I didn't believe this because I was still thinking, no, look at them. They're all getting on, the cost of getting on. But I think there was definitely a little bit of.

• 25:51Alice Levine?

  Grant, you're such an optimist.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  I know I am. I think that's the problem. I always see the good in everything.

• 25:56Alice Levine?

  I suppose with the four of them, what you realised quite quickly as somebody just, you know, a layperson just viewing it, was that William and Catherine just had a very different attitude in a way to Harry and Meghan. It always, it always felt like there was the first couple and the second couple.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. Meghan, I think is quite similar to Harry, a bit more playful, a bit more, not do what you want. But there's not the same. Don't say not commitment because he is committed, but maybe he just knew that his brother and Catherine Row is going to be slightly different to theirs, if I can say that. I'll give you an example. I remember one year on the balcony, the way they were standing, there's a hierarchy, there's a position as you stand on the balcony, they're instructed before they walk out as to where one's standing. And I noticed that Meghan and Harry, I think, got it slightly wrong and then they moved back. And you might remember this because Harry's then speaking to her and the cameras picked this up. I think he was trying to explain to

• 26:54Speaker 04

  about how it works. And you can see she looked a little bit perplexed. I think she was a bit like, what? A bit confused at it. And I think that, again, this is part of the learning process is realising that, you know, I think he was trying to say that my brother and sister, they go there and we're behind. And maybe she, thinking from her own innocent side, she probably think, well, why would we not all stand beside each other? We're all supposed to be the same. And I think that might have been quite tricky.

• 27:21Matt Forde?

  And do you think, obviously, the dynamic is informed by the context that the firstborn becomes the king?

• 27:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:28Matt Forde?

  But they've also got different personalities. Thinking of Harry's personality and William's personality, if Harry would have been born first, would he still have been more the fun-loving guy?

• 27:37Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:37Matt Forde?

  Or would have he still had to be a bit straight because he was going to be the king?

• 27:40Speaker 04

  Going by my time around him and knowing what he's like, I think he still had the fun loving. I think they might have told him to rein it in a little bit. The reason I say that is William and Catherine, we've seen them do some fun things together. Like, there was a photo shoot. I don't know if Catherine poked William or pinched his bottom or did something. And they all started giggling. And I remember, you know, some friends saying, oh, my gosh, that's not very royal, you know, it's not. But I'm thinking, no, no, no, this is good. This is the modern way. I think if it had been Harry, it'd be even worse, you know, maybe even more so. I think they do try to rein them in a little bit. But I don't know. I don't know if it would have been hugely different because I think William has been allowed to, I think he has been allowed to have a bit of fun with it. And I think Harry would have had to probably

• 28:24Speaker 04

  rein it in a little bit. But I still think we'd get to see that fun side of him.

• 28:29Alice Levine?

  Do you think that mischievous, irreverent side of Harry didn't sit well with the kind of regimented control of the firm?

• 28:38Speaker 04

  Possibly. He's not shy of the wack flow. I mean, he really isn't. I mean, you know, even since he's left, even now, he's still doing visits, the non royal visits. It's their choice to do it, but they've got every essence of being a royal visit, but without the word royal, basically.

• 28:58Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Kenia Barris.

• 28:59Speaker 08

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 29:05Speaker 07

  We're bringing you fresh, new conversations from guests like Anderson Paak, Davis Zedares, Ryan Howard, Richel, Amy Shell, and many more.

• 29:12Speaker 08

  Sign up for a free trial to Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 29:18Speaker 09

  Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son in law should ever go. Deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:43Matt Forde?

  So Grant, talk us through what a royal butler does day to day. Is it like Downton Abbey or is it less glamorous?

• 29:48Speaker 04

  I love you said that. Everybody says to me, is it like Downton Abbey? And I think Carson would probably turn him in his grave from people liking me to him because their role is so different. My experience was, and especially in the royal house, you're respected as a professional. I remember one butler once saying, quite simply, a butler does everything for the principle. Every single thing you can imagine, apart from sleep with them. And that was so true because you're basically like the housewife or the house husband. You're there to kind of look after them. And the days could be, they could be short. You know, some days I could go in at nine to five if there was nobody there and do a bit of housekeeping and a bit of cleaning. And then those other days, well, I'd go up at six thirty in the morning.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  And at seven thirty, I'd be taking a call and tree in with biscuits and tea to wake you up. And then between eight and 10, I'd be serving you a breakfast. Between 11 and 12, I'd be doing a living disease, which is your tea, coffee and biscuits. Between 12, 30 and one, I'd do your pre lunch drinks. Between one and two, I'd do your lunch between two and three. You'd have a cup of coffee between four and six, you have your afternoon tea. Between six, eight and seven, you have your pre evening drinks. Between seven, 30 and eight, you have your evening drinks. Between eight and 10, 30, you have your dinner. You could have supper between nine and midnight. Then I'd give you a glass of share, a glass of pork, a glass of brandy, and then you go to bed, wake up in the morning and join Weight Watchers. So that's a typical, that can be a typical day.

• 31:08Alice Levine?

  I've got heartburn just hearing about it.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  You have more than heartburn at the end of it. But that's a really full on day. That's really full on. And in between that, you're still having to do all the other bits you've got to do, including I T. I mean, your smart T Vs and your.

• 31:23Alice Levine?

  Yeah, I can't imagine the King setting up a new I O S on an iPhone. Obviously, all bosses, no matter the role, have preferences. I'm wondering, what was something the King insisted on? You know, six minute egg copy of the Daily Mail in the morning.

• 31:39Speaker 04

  He always insists in organic vegetables, fresh food, fresh vegetables, locally sourced. These are his things. He's also a stickler for etiquette, protocols and tradition. We were doing a dinner one night and being the gentleman he is, he wanted to be served last. I remember I'd put the plates down and the other butler had brought in the, I think it was a souffle or something. And I was now going around the table with the souffles, doing it in a certain order, just how he likes it done. And I served him last and as I got to him, he got his spoon and fork and got a big dollop. I think it was cheese souffle, big dollop. And he does this, he was like, I mean, like that, I mean, plop, like that, as he drops it on the, on the plate. It was a problem. I hadn't given him a plate.

• 32:23Speaker 04

  So going not into the table, but there was a charger. Do you know what a charger is? It's, it's to come under plate, goes under your plate, so it protects the table. And it was a silver one and it landed in the silver charger. And I was horrified. I thought, oh, I'm gonna, I thought, oh, this is, because he'd never ever told me off. And I'm thinking, oh, God, I'm gonna get told off. This is gonna be so, this is awful. And he looked at me and I immediately said, I'm so sorry, I'm really sorry. He went, no, no, no, let's, let's think about this. He said, um, I'm a royal. I said, yes, sir. He said, that's silver. I said, yes. I said, it's fine. Royals can eat off silver. And then that was it. It was done. And that was the only, if you talk about getting told off, that was the only time that I ever got the closest. But it wasn't even telling off. It was, he turned it into a bit of fun.

• 33:05Alice Levine?

  Man of the people.

• 33:06Speaker 04

  So he didn't tell you off, but did any of the other Royals ever tell you off?

• 33:13Speaker 04

  Not tell me off, but I had a very awkward conversation once with Princess Anne.

• 33:19Speaker 04

  Normally what would happen is Buckingham Palace would phone through and they would say, we have Princess Anne for her Royal Highness, whatever. And then I would then say, okay, put the call through, I then have Princess Anne, and then I transfer the call through to him. So very straightforward. However, this one day I wasn't in the pantry, I was in the staff room and the phone rings and I picked it up. And of course, the voice is Princess Anne. I said, yes, very good. Princess Anne, yes, that's fine. Princess Anne, I can deal with her. Put her through to me. This is Princess Anne.

• 33:53Speaker 04

  And then I said, I was so stuck. I said, oh, I'm very sorry, sir. And she was like, I had to go like that. And I put the phone down. I was so like embarrassed. And the phone started ringing and everyone was saying, pick the phone up, pick the phone up, but don't say sir, don't say. And I picked it up. And she was like, Princess Anne. I said, one moment, your Royal Highness. Put her straight through. That was the, not a telling off, but that was the closest I made to me at about the four p.

• 34:16Matt Forde?

  But there's never a comeback. No one ever says, now Princess Anne's had a word about what happened that day.

• 34:21Speaker 04

  Never, never. I've never, ever, no. I'm not just saying that. I mean, maybe it was my age, because I was quite young. I was twenty, you know, twenty five when I went for the interviews, twenty six. Maybe it's my nature, because I'm, I think I'm quite easygoing kind of character. But he was, he never, ever, I was never told off, not with the family.

• 34:40Alice Levine?

  I'm trying to picture what a relaxed night in looks like for a royal. Do they watch, you know, Housewives of New York, you know, is there a Deliveroo?

• 34:49Speaker 04

  No, God, no, no, none. A relaxed night for them, it's very rare, because if the schedule means they're normally working till about 11 o'clock at night. And that includes supper or dinner. And a dinner for them is a dinner at Clarence House, where they're all suited and booted. So it was very rare that it would be just them having a dinner on their own, very rare. Because it was all, they're always doing stuff. That's why sometimes, you know, when people say, is the monarchy value for money? And this, every year, obviously, we talk about it. And I was gonna say, well, yes, because from my point of view, if you said to somebody, you're gonna work for the next seven days, you're gonna start at nine o'clock and you're going to work through until half eleven, twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the morning.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  And it's gonna be like that every day. And by the way, this is what you're all doing during the day as well. I don't think many people would say, yes, I really don't.

• 35:38Alice Levine?

  What does that mean for William and Catherine with a young family?

• 35:40Speaker 04

  Well, this is where it's different, okay? Because William has recently said in the last few months that the future of the monarchy will be royal with a small r. And I think what he's referring to is very opposite to what the late Queen. The late Queen was all about the crown, then family. I feel and think, and I could be wrong, I think William and Catherine is about family and health and then the crown. So I'm not saying that he's going to drop out in duties or change anything. I think his priorities, quite rightly, is his family. With what's all happened, I don't think anybody would ever say that's the wrong attitude. If anything, I think it's the right attitude. So I think it is going to be different 100% going forward.

• 36:21Matt Forde?

  We hear lots of rumours about the royals. There's one that the Queen ate cornflakes out of tupperware in the morning.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  It's not a rumour. And the reason I can say that is because, I don't know if you remember, and I was there when this all happened, a journalist actually got into Buckingham Palace as a footman.

• 36:35Matt Forde?

  Yes.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  And there was photograph evidence and it was all over the place. Now, can I say in fairness to this, I like this idea? Because when you have your cornflakes in the morning, you know when your butler brings in your breakfast?

• 36:46Alice Levine?

  I do.

• 36:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay. So if you think about those packets, if you don't seal them properly, it becomes all stale and...

• 36:53Matt Forde?

  Yeah, quite quickly.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  But if it's in tupperware, it lasts and lasts and lasts.

• 36:57Alice Levine?

  Am I misunderstanding, storing in tupperware or eating out of a tupperware?

• 37:01Speaker 04

  Storing.

• 37:01Matt Forde?

  Okay, yeah, she's not adding milk into the tupperware and downing it like a milk jar.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  No, this is the royal family. It's not, it's not...

• 37:07Alice Levine?

  It's like, okay, I mean, if you're endorsing it, Grant, maybe I'll try it, but I kind of like a bowl.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  It's not the Simpsons we're talking about here, we're talking about the royal family. Oh, God, I think we would all love to see that.

• 37:15Alice Levine?

  But semi-skimmed, lid off, great.

• 37:17Speaker 04

  No, that would be a disaster. God, not even the coggies to be fed out of a tupperware bowl. Wow.

• 37:23Matt Forde?

  And to become a royal butler, one, what made you want to do it? And two, what previous experience do you need?

• 37:30Speaker 04

  To be a royal butler, but I didn't actually want to be a butler, I actually wanted to marry into the family.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  So I saw a documentary back in nineteen ninety two, all about the Queen and the royal family. I already loved the Queen. And I said to my dad, how do you join it? And that's when he said, well, you marry into them or you work for them. And he said, you're not going to marry them because if I'm honest, you're a common, it's not going to happen. And then he said, and you're not going to work for them because they're 500 miles away. His view, I was going to stay in Scotland. So he said, that's not going to happen. But I remember I didn't like, I'm a huge believer that if you want some, you can make it happen. And from a young, young age, I believed that. I remember sitting there going, I'm going to dance with her. I'm going to meet her and I'm going to dance with her because there was dancing in the documentary. And that was the thing I said to my dad, I want to dance with her. And my dad said, you're never going to dance with her. With Diana? The Queen. The Queen?

• 38:17Speaker 04

  Oh, no, no, I went down to the Queen. I wanted the top. And my dad said, you're dreaming, my boy, you're dreaming. I remember he was going to, you know, this is just your imagination. And I remember sitting there and I promise you, I remember thinking, I'm going to dance with her. I don't know how I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And I started letter writing and to different estates, trying to get a job on the estates. I thought if I get into the state, I could walk my way up. And then I saw Remains of the Day with Anthony Hopkins. And I thought, that's how I do it. I become a butler, I walk my way up, and I go and work for the royal family. So I'd planned it when I was 14. And by the age of 26, then I'm at Clarence House, having an interview with the future king as one of his butlers. And then as soon as I got the job, within about a year, I'm up in Scotland again. And there's a notice in the notice board

• 39:01Speaker 04

  saying that the Queen has given a ball tonight. And I went into the, the office to the secretary and I said, what is this ball? And she said, well, that's if they have two of them every, the Queen has two every year. And the first one's coming up. And I said, I have to go to it. And she said, why? And I said, when I was a kid, I saw it. And I said, it's my dream. I said, okay, she pushed a bit of paper, she'd write your name down, I wrote my name down. And then she goes back to working away. And I looked at her and I said, now watch, what do you mean? I said, well, is it a ballet? Is it, they got an email, they got a, they got a letter? And she went, oh, no, just make sure you're ready to go on the night. And I was like, is it that easy? And she said, that's, yeah. I thought, my God, I'd have done this years ago if I'd known it was that easy. And then on the night of the dinner, I chickened out because I, what happens if it all goes wrong? What happens if I go in the room and I, I don't know, she

• 39:45Speaker 04

  doesn't want to dance with me or? I trip her up or so I decided not to go. So as I was doing the dinner, the now king said to me, oh, you ready for tonight? And I said, well, I'm not gonna go now, sir. Cause I told him I was gonna go. And he said, why? I said, well, I haven't got anything to wear. And he said, you wear your kilt. He said, oh, my kilt. So I thought, okay. Oh, that's a good point. So I'm in my kilt. And I'm thinking, I can't go, I can't go. And I get round to Camilla and she said, what's settled? You're coming. I said, I can't, I can't get there. I said, I'm not gonna go on a bike in the middle of the night. I said, I don't have a car. And she said, oh, Grant. And she looks over at him and she puts her hand on his head and she goes, darling, he can come with us, can't he? And I'm thinking, what? And he turns around and he says, yes, of course, you can go and change and we'll go together. I know that's.

• 40:28Alice Levine?

  I'm aghast.

• 40:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So I now run to my room, pass this other butler. He said, where are you going? I remember saying, I'm off to the ball. I run to my room, I change, I come back. And they're all waiting for the prince and the duchess and the doors open and the car doors slightly ajar. And so I go out, cause they come down the steps and he's like, right, off, off we go. And I go down the steps and I go into the car. As when the detective pulls me forcibly back the way and I'm looking, saying, no, no, no. I'm allowed to go, I'm allowed to go. And he said, not in the car with the flag. So, cause that's their official car. So I get in the car in the back and off we go in convoy with, you know, the outriders and stuff.

• 41:07Alice Levine?

  I was picturing you sat in the middle, squished between the two of them, sort of like.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Jimmy Love Actually with the prime minister with Hugh Grant with my, in my costume. No, I had to get in the car in the back, but this gets even weirder because as we got to Memorial Castle and we slowed down, I had a vision of when I was a kid, standing at Memorial Castle waving at the cars as they used to drive up the drive. And I saw these people waving. And as the car slowed down for the gates to open, I looked out and I suddenly did the royal wave to the people.

• 41:35Alice Levine?

  Really feeling yourself, yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 04

  And the detective next said, what are you doing? And I said, the people, they've come so far. And he was like, do you want a pair of white gloves? And I said, do you have any? And we drive up to the castle. We go in. I had to go in the seventh entrance, couldn't go in the front. And as soon as I'm in there, the music pipes up with the national anthem. The royals now come down. It's all very quick. And I panicked. So I went and hid behind a screen that was kind of a windbreaker from the outside. And now Queen Camilla, she made a beeline straight for me. She pulled me out from the screen and she says, don't be nervous. She says, I'm gonna dance with you to relax you. Let's have a dance. Do you know the salsa? Do you know the salsa? Yeah, it's not quite. Anyway, so we do, we do a dance and during it, she says, why are you so nervous?

• 42:19Speaker 04

  And I said, when I was a kid, I had this dream. I would be here and I'd dance Queen Elizabeth. And she said, Grant, there's a hundred and thirty people here. Enjoy it. Relax. You're probably not gonna dance with her. Just be, just enjoy the moment. And as soon as she'd said it, the music stopped. And she suddenly went, ah, like that. And I thought I was on her feet. So I looked down and went, are you, are you rightness? And she went, ah, like that again. And she's kind of moving her head, like trying to get me to look behind me. When I turned around, Queen Elizabeth's standing behind me and she put her hand towards me. She says, right, shall we do this? Shall we do this? Amazing. And Camilla pushed me forward and then the Queen took us all over and we formed this group. And we did this fun reel, I mean, a dance where I got to dance with the Queen and part of it. I mean, it was surreal.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  But the only thing that went a bit wrong was at the end of the dance, this group, three of you move on to the next lot. And three move on to, I'm with the Queen and Queen Camilla. And we go to go forward and then somebody goes under, somebody goes over. And Queen Camilla was trying to make us go under. So you've got Prince Philip, Prince Charles and one another. And they're trying to make us go under. And I pulled the Queen's hand up. We almost fell over. They had to correct themselves. The Queen looked at me a bit, kind of like, what's that all about? And then Camilla came over and she said, whoa, why did you do that? She almost made us all fall over. And I said, you're rightness, if we had gone under, you're gonna make Queen Elizabeth bow to the future King Charles, which is against royal protocol. And she went, ah, and I thought I have just saved the British monarchy.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  And you got, you got your dream. And I got my dream. So you're not in there anymore? No, no, I've been gone fourteen years. Why did you leave? Do you know what was really sad? Because I know it sounds weird, but the Queen had a bit of, there was a spell where she hadn't been that well. And I think it caused a bit of a panic and suddenly they were doing redundancies, they were doing cutbacks all those years ago. And I was one of them, which now I'm so grateful. I mean, I know it sounds weird, but I'm so, because otherwise, God, I mean, it's taken a long time to build up this new career. And so I did the, I went down that route. But the reason I say it's sad is a lot of my colleagues remained. And when the Queen died, I don't know if you know this, all the contracts became null and void. So everybody lost their jobs and they had to reapply, they had to be re-employed. And many of them didn't get

• 44:29Speaker 04

  their jobs, didn't get re-employed. So, you know, these are people that maybe were, when I left, getting into their 50s, they're now in their 60s and suddenly they're having to find new jobs. And so I'm lucky that I left when I left.

• 44:41Matt Forde?

  We obviously have to address the royal elephant in the room, given when we're recording, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has been in the news a lot. Did you ever encounter him?

• 44:48Speaker 04

  I did. Not often. I had very, very little to do with him. It is true, he was very dismissive. You know, you were staff, there's no two ways about it. He was very polite, you know, not over polite, but he wasn't rude, you know, he acknowledged if he did something. But when I say dismissive, what I mean by that is he knew you were the staff, you know, there's no two ways about it. I was unaware of, you know, well, I was told about his character, I was told about how he was as a person. So I was fully aware, but as my past didn't really cross with his, very rarely that I ever saw him. I saw him obviously at family events. I was at King and Queen Camilla's wedding and I remember I was there as a guest. I got to kind of mingle with, I didn't really mingle with him though. He did his own thing.

• 45:31Matt Forde?

  And could you tell that he was the Queen's favourite?

• 45:35Speaker 04

  No, I really didn't. That's what's so funny when people say that. I didn't see it. If you were to say to me who was the Queen's favourite, I'd have said Princess Anne. Because the two of them were very close. I mean, she was close with all her kids, I think, but maybe she knew, maybe she could tell that he, I'm not saying he struggled or whatever, but he was, you know, I think in the way they're brought up in those palace and things, you are given everything you want, you know, you, everything's put on a plate, I suppose, for your back. I'm talking about the 60s, 50s, 60s. So it's a very different world and maybe it's like that famous book, you know, entitled about him, it kind of sums up how he became sadly, and this is what's caused

• 46:15Speaker 04

  the downfall. The sad bit about, about this is, as we all know, is it's, it's become such a big thing and, you know, the monarchy's popularity has absolutely declined since the death of Queen Elizabeth. And it's not that people don't like the king, it's just it's a very different royal family. I think the reality is, you know, it's not going to go away. I think it's going to probably get worse before it gets better. But looking into the future, I think everyone's going to look at William and Catherine, if you like, as the future. And even the king, I think, is aware of that. So I think that will be more the, the focus. And that'll be a clean sweep because that'll be a very different monarchy, I think.

• 46:52Alice Levine?

  As someone who's clearly very proud of their time working with the royals, how did you feel when that Andrew news story broke?

• 46:59Speaker 04

  I mean, everyone's kind of says they feel sorry for the king and whatever. I feel sorry for, and I'm glad she's not here. Isn't that a terrible thing to say when you think that of somebody? Because I think she was protective of him. I think she's a mother and all I'll see and all stress, obviously he's not been found guilty of anything and obviously it's ongoing. But I think she's very much a mother, she was very family orientated and I think that's why she was so protective of him. And I think what I remember when the news broke, I do remember thinking, I'm glad she's not here because I don't know how she would have coped with that. I don't know, I don't know how any mother would cope when they realise that, because even if she knew about it or became aware of it or whatever, I'm sure she would in her head want to deny it because you don't want to think bad of

• 47:42Speaker 04

  your kids, you know, do you? That's the reality of it. So I do, I do feel for her and I'm kind of glad that she wasn't here to have to actually experience and to be living through this because I think the royal family just now is not a great time for any of them.

• 48:04Matt Forde?

  Huge thanks to Grant Harold for joining us today. Alice, what do you have for us next time?

• 48:08Alice Levine?

  OK, so this is quite exciting because I think it might be our first cold case.

• 48:12Matt Forde?

  Oh, Bermuda Triangle?

• 48:15Alice Levine?

  No, I think that's more of a mystery than a kind of police investigation.

• 48:20Matt Forde?

  OK, Loch Ness Monster?

• 48:22Alice Levine?

  Again, is that sort of in the mythical department?

• 48:25Matt Forde?

  Fair point. My bike got nicked in 1992.

• 48:28Alice Levine?

  Now we're talking. Do you have any evidence?

• 48:30Matt Forde?

  No evidence, no justice, no peace.

• 48:33Alice Levine?

  OK, we simply have to put your mind at rest and do that for a future series. But actually, what I'm talking about is much more grisly. Our next series is about the notorious Dr. Crippen, his missing wife, and the body in the cellar.

• 48:48Matt Forde?

  And that's where my bike was?

• 48:50Alice Levine?

  I think it's a hot lead.

• 48:51Matt Forde?

  Can't wait. You've been listening to British Scandal, an Audible original. British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.

• 48:58Alice Levine?

  And me, Alice Levine.

• 48:59Matt Forde?

  For Samizdat, our series producer was Chica Ayers. Our assistant producer was Louise Mason. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dashar Lissitzina. Our engineer was Jai Williams. Executive producers for Audible were Theodora Leludis and Estelle Doyle.

• 49:19Speaker 10

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I's secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and at free on Audible.

• 49:49Speaker 11

  By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men, so he decided... To make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress

• 50:33Speaker 11

  to the enemy and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible on the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.