The Post Office Scandal | The Clarke Advice | 3

Jo joins forces with Alan Bates to expose decades of lies and a criminal cover-up. But when sub-postmasters’ convictions are overturned, the two face a bittersweet victory. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Oh, what you got there?

• 0:01Matt Forde?

  That is a wallet that I found on the tube this morning.

• 0:04Alice Levine?

  No way, god, I'd be so annoyed if that was mine.

• 0:07Matt Forde?

  Yeah, well, obviously I'm gonna do the right thing and get it back to the owner.

• 0:12Alice Levine?

  Yeah, have you looked inside?

• 0:13Matt Forde?

  There you go, look, it's got a golf club membership card.

• 0:16Alice Levine?

  So?

• 0:17Matt Forde?

  I really wanna do a favour for that sort of bloke.

• 0:20Alice Levine?

  You have to do what you would have done unto you, like, you do the right thing, you know, pay it forward. Where does he live? Has he got a driver's licence in there?

• 0:27Matt Forde?

  Yeah, he lives south of the river.

• 0:29Alice Levine?

  And?

• 0:30Matt Forde?

  That's miles away, that's like going to another country. He might as well be in France.

• 0:34Alice Levine?

  So you'll take a wallet back to somebody if they live next door to you?

• 0:37Matt Forde?

  Oh, yeah.

• 0:38Alice Levine?

  There you go, look, though, he works on Leicester Square.

• 0:41Matt Forde?

  Exactly, it's tourist travel, it's hell, and you try walking to or across Leicester Square.

• 0:46Alice Levine?

  It's two minutes that way.

• 0:48Matt Forde?

  No, you're right, I don't know what I'd become, I'm gonna take it to him now.

• 0:51Alice Levine?

  That's the man I know and love, off you go.

• 0:52Matt Forde?

  I mean, there is forty quid cash in it. I think the law is that you can take that as a finder's fee, or certainly some sort of processing or handling fee, because I am going out of my way and I don't have any cash on me for the sandwich.

• 1:02Alice Levine?

  Why are you taking his coffee loyalty card as well, though?

• 1:07Alice Levine?

  March 2019, Royal Courts of Justice, London.

• 1:14Alice Levine?

  Richard Roll steps out of the cubicle, splashes his face with cold water. He can't stop being sick. He grabs a paper towel to dry his face. He's due to give evidence this morning on the Horizon system. Straightening up, he stares in the mirror, takes in his neat grey hair, trimmed beard, blue suit and tie. He'd wanted to appear professional today, in control, but right now he looks terrified. His eyes are sunken behind his tinted glasses, his skin's clammy with nervous sweat. He can't think straight, can't remember any details, and he can't stop shaking.

• 1:59Alice Levine?

  A few minutes later, he fidgets on a bench outside the courtroom for Bates versus the post office. This is their one chance to prove from the inside that Horizon was faulty. And he's the sub-postmaster's key witness. Richard closes his eyes. It's eight years now since he got in touch with Alan Bates, fifteen since he actually worked at Fujitsu.

• 2:27Alice Levine?

  Richard stutters, trying to list the names of Horizon's bugs. But he can't remember any of them. He opens his eyes, jolts with shock. Sitting opposite him is one of his old colleagues, a former top-level Horizon engineer, scanning through a document. He must have every fact and figure at his fingertips. His pulse races. His stomach cramps. He's going to be sick again. He jumps up, his eyes dart around for the nearest exit. But the heavy court doors swing open. For a moment, he's routed to the spot.

• 3:09Alice Levine?

  He wants to tell them he's made a terrible mistake, that he can't do this. Instead, he walks slowly towards the clerk, and follows him into the hushed courtroom. Mr. Richard Roll, please. He fixes his eyes on the witness box as a sea of faces turn to look at him. His heartbeat smacks in his ears as he walks to the stand. He stutters through his oath. The post office's barrister sweeps up to him, and frowns over the top of his glasses, and booms out. Would you say you had a good memory, Mr. Roll?

• 3:50Matt Forde?

  Most days, but, I mean, come on, man, I'm under pressure today. I mean, that's part of the problem, isn't it? Is ordinarily, you'd be able to remember all this. You put a human being under pressure, in the dock of the Royal Courts of Justice, and then expect them to remember everything?

• 4:05Alice Levine?

  Richard glances up at the gallery, sees Alan Bates and Joe Hamilton's expectant faces, and realizes: his evidence will determine this case. The future of thousands of innocent people rests on him. And if he fails now, the post office will walk away unscathed, having escaped one of Britain's greatest ever miscarriages of justice.

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• 5:28Matt Forde?

  From Audible Originals, I'm Matt Ford.

• 5:30Alice Levine?

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 5:32Matt Forde?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 5:45Alice Levine?

  Okay, Matt. We've heard loads about the amazing Jo and her story. But actually, we're in a really different place now because we have a united group of sub-postmasters fighting back en masse.

• 5:58Matt Forde?

  Yes, unity is strength. And that has been the fundamental shift, really, is that all these individuals who are blaming themselves have been able to come together, get parliamentary support and realise that this is a widespread problem. But despite them being well organised and coordinated, this is still an immensely hard slog. This issue hasn't, at this point, really captured the public's imagination yet. They're still having to do this under the radar at huge personal cost to themselves.

• 6:24Alice Levine?

  So knowing what we've heard in the series, and I guess knowing what you know in the real world outside of British Scandal, at this point, are you hopeful?

• 6:33Matt Forde?

  Knowing how justice is done in this country, I'm never that hopeful, really, that we'll get the correct outcome. But really, there are three big questions. Was the technology flawed? Did the post office know the technology was flawed? And did the post office cover up, knowing that the technology was flawed?

• 6:50Alice Levine?

  I want to get you three answers to those three questions, Matt. So let's get going. There are some serious revelations coming up and let's see just how dirty the post office are ready to play. This is episode three, The Clark Advice.

• 7:08Alice Levine?

  February 2015, Portcullis House, London. Jo pushes through the busy traffic, checks her watch. She's got 10 minutes to get across Westminster Bridge and into Portcullis House before the hearing starts. It's taken Jo's MP, James Arbuthnot, months to persuade Parliament to hold an inquiry into Horizon.

• 7:31Alice Levine?

  Jo feels a clench in her stomach. It's 12 years since those figures doubled on her Horizon screen. 12 long years of the Post Office denying Horizon was faulty. But today, she'll finally get answers.

• 7:48Alice Levine?

  She hurries into the building, up the steps, and into the Wilson Room. She spots Ian Henderson on the front bench, catches his eye, gives him a small nod. He's sitting next to the Post Office Chief Executive, Paula Venables. She's giving evidence later. And Jo can see she's already squirming, fiddling with the crucifix around her neck.

• 8:13Matt Forde?

  This is so dramatic because obviously, Ian is from Second Sight, the forensic accountants that Paula Venables had hired. But we know that his evidence is going to undermine Paula Venables, and they've got to sit next to each other and give evidence together at a parliamentary inquiry.

• 8:26Alice Levine?

  You all right, Ian? How you been?

• 8:27Matt Forde?

  Uh, yeah, I'll be better in a couple of hours, once I'm out of here.

• 8:32Alice Levine?

  Jo leans forward as Ian begins his evidence. We felt the Post Office held back vital information on Horizon and its shortcomings. On numerous occasions, we asked for files that weren't forthcoming, files that relate to the potential wrongful conviction of multiple sub-postmasters. Jo's eyes widen as MP Nadeem Sahawi turns to Paula. Mrs. Venables, why weren't those files handed over? What was the problem? Paula shuffles awkwardly. This is the first I've heard of it. Jo watches in disbelief as Mr. Sahawi's eyebrows shoot up. From Ian, that your organisation's been obstructive to his independent work.

• 9:17Alice Levine?

  Is that right or wrong? Jo watches Paula stiffen, then folds her hands on the desk and looks straight at the MPs. Wrong. We've provided everything. I have no evidence of miscarriages of justice. If there had been any, it would have been important for me to surface those. But there's no evidence anywhere of that. Jo clenches her jaw, stares in horror as Paula grips the crucifix around her neck. The Horizon system is robust. Jo shakes her head in anger. She's seen her own file, knows it's not true. She wants to yell out, tell Paula Venels, the entire room, she's lying.

• 10:02Matt Forde?

  It does happen. It's in one of these rooms that Rupert Murdoch was custard-pied by a protester when he was giving evidence to the Culture, Media and Sports Select Committee, so Jo had options.

• 10:12Alice Levine?

  Half an hour later, it's all over. Jo, numb, walks down to the inner courtyard, collapses next to the indoor trees, tries to calm her irritation.

• 10:25Alice Levine?

  738 sub-postmasters to date have criminal convictions because of Horizon. Their lives, their families' lives, torn apart. And at least 13 have killed themselves. Jo is convinced that Paula Venels is telling Parliament bare-faced lies. She takes out her phone and rings Alan. So, did they break? She lets out a bitter laugh. I finally thought this was it, Alan, that they'd finally admit what they'd done to us all. She hears him pause. Maybe it's time for us to turn the tables. She narrows her eyes. What do you mean?

• 11:11Matt Forde?

  We get them to set up post offices, we invent our own tech full of bugs, we force them to use it. It's a very long game.

• 11:20Alice Levine?

  They've used the whole legal system against us, Jo. So now we can use it against them. We take them to court. She scoffs. How? We'll never get the money. We can do this, Jo. We can prove Horizon is to blame for all of this. What do you think? Jo's eyes fall on Paula Venables, heading to the door. Trailed by a group of lawyers and assistants. Jo watches her pause. Then Paula turns and looks straight at her. Jo's about to march over, let it rip. But an assistant rushes forward, hurries Paula into a waiting car.

• 12:05Alice Levine?

  A wave of bitter anger rushes up from Jo's stomach. She grips the phone to her ear. Hears her own determined voice. When do we start?

• 12:24Alice Levine?

  2016, Shrewsbury, Shropshire. Richard Roll clips his client's toenails, then files them down.

• 12:33Matt Forde?

  Is this tech talk, are these IT terms?

• 12:36Alice Levine?

  Well, files them down does sound like one.

• 12:39Matt Forde?

  Guys, I'm really gonna have to clip some toenails on this. Can I get a firewall for the mainframe, please?

• 12:45Alice Levine?

  He's arranged to meet Alan Bates in his lunch hour at the local garden centre. But he's not sure why. He's a podiatrist now. What new information could he possibly give?

• 12:56Matt Forde?

  I mean, it's a heck of a career change.

• 12:57Alice Levine?

  The wrong way around, though, isn't it? They want more people going into STEM, into cyber, from podiatry, rather than going into podiatry from tech.

• 13:06Matt Forde?

  Yeah, but maybe that campaign caused a brain drain from the podiatry sector. And now big pod are saying, we need to get skills back into the sector. We need a recruitment drive. Let's get those tech geeks in to clip people's toenails.

• 13:18Alice Levine?

  An hour later, he anxiously steps into the garden centre café, scans the room, spots Alan. Thanks for meeting me, Richard. He watches Alan lean forward. Richard, we're suing the post office. Group litigation. We're gonna prove they acted unlawfully when they blamed us for Horizon's faults. Alan fixes him with a steady gaze. But we need an expert witness. Someone who knows Horizon inside and out. Someone who knows all its faults.

• 13:53Alice Levine?

  Richard's eyes widen. You want me? He reels back, shakes his head. They'll want details, Alan, dates, specifics. I can't remember any of that. Not from 12 years ago. I'll be a liability.

• 14:08Matt Forde?

  I'm a humble podiatrist now, feet to my industry, toes my art. I've changed.

• 14:14Alice Levine?

  This little piggy went to market. I can't even remember the next one.

• 14:17Matt Forde?

  Yes, it did go to market, and it actually did pop into the post office, so you got a fair point.

• 14:23Alice Levine?

  Alan gives him a sympathetic smile.

• 14:26Alice Levine?

  Richard, the post office will argue Horizon is, as they keep saying, robust. We need a former insider with technical expertise to pull that apart. We don't stand a chance without you. Richard feels a bead of sweat break out on his forehead. He's carved out a quiet life since he left Fujitsu. It's one thing being a whistleblower, but stepping into the spotlight is something else entirely. They'll crucify me. I'm sorry. He stands up, grabs his coat, but Alan leans in. 738 people, Richard. That's how many sub-postmasters have been given a criminal conviction using Horizon evidence.

• 15:11Alice Levine?

  None of those people did a thing wrong. None.

• 15:16Alice Levine?

  Richard's heart speeds up in his chest. He feels sick. The post office won't stop. Not until we make them. The thought of being cross-examined by a mob of post office lawyers terrifies Richard. He closes his eyes and suddenly realizes this is exactly how every single innocent sub-postmaster must have felt before their trials. He opens his eyes, slowly nods. I'll talk to your legal team, but I'm not making any promises.

• 15:54Alice Levine?

  He walks back to his car, remembers why he got in touch with Alan in the first place. He couldn't stand the injustice, but coming out of the shadows terrifies him. He just knows one thing for sure: if he doesn't step up, their case might be dead before it even starts.

• 16:19Alice Levine?

  2017, Post Office HQ, London. Paula Venels strides down the corridor, stops outside the boardroom door, wraps her fingers around her gold crucifix, and whispers a prayer of thanks. She steps into the room, calls everyone to silence, waits until every face is turned towards her, then holds up a file. I am delighted to announce, for the first time in 16 years, the Post Office has moved into profit: £13 million.

• 16:56Alice Levine?

  She holds up her hand to stop the applause.

• 17:00Alice Levine?

  On the back of which, the government has just announced a further £370 million of investment to support our continued modernisation and growth. She smiles at the grinning faces around the boardroom. This is a major milestone in our journey to a sustainable and successful business, and Horizon has been at the forefront of this change. She smiles as the room congratulates her. It hasn't been easy. She even had to endure that ridiculous inquisition with the MPs, but she's done it. The Post Office's future is secure, and so is hers.

• 17:40Alice Levine?

  Paula looks up, sees Jane MacLeod, the senior in-house lawyer, and she's grey-faced, pushing back her blonde hair with shaking hands. Can't this wait? But Jane rubs at her forehead. The sub-postmasters have just served us with legal notice, 555 of them in a class action led by Alan Bates. They're bloody suing us! Paula's expression hardens. On what grounds? She watches Jane scroll through the email on her phone. It's a long list, Paula. Unfair contracts, unlawful treatment, miscarriages of justice due to bugs in the Horizon system. Apparently, they've secured funding. And... A whistleblower.

• 18:27Alice Levine?

  Paula's head snaps up. Who? Jane shrugs. We don't know yet. Paula hooks her thumb under her gold crucifix. She's not going to let this controversy destroy the investment she's fought so hard for. Not when she's this close. Organise an emergency meeting. I want everyone there. Cancel all leave until this is sorted. Paula straightens. She watches Jane hurry back to her office. These time wasters have hounded her for years. Maybe a court case won't be a bad thing. Their funds will be limited, but she can throw all the money she needs at this. She'll set up a war room,

• 19:12Alice Levine?

  prepare for battle, and finish Alan Bates and the sub-postmasters once and for all.

• 19:25Alice Levine?

  Two years later, March 2019. The Rolls Building, Royal Courts of Justice.

• 19:32Alice Levine?

  Jo pushes her way through the crowds and slips into her usual seat in the public gallery. Bates and others versus the post office has been going on for four months now. So far, the post office's barristers have been razor-sharp, painting every sub-postmaster on the stand as either dishonest or a technophobe. It's been agony to watch. She takes a deep breath, picks up a newspaper to distract herself, and freezes. A grinning picture of Paula Venables.

• 20:06Alice Levine?

  Joe looks up, sees Alan, shoves the newspaper at him.

• 20:12Alice Levine?

  "Can you believe this? She's leaving the post office." She grits her teeth as he reads the headline. "Paula Venel's CBE to take over as Chair of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust."

• 20:25Matt Forde?

  There's so much in that headline that's annoying. The CBE, the fact that she's just gonna drift into another high-powered job. When you consider how hard it is for talented people sometimes to get on in life, and then you can preside over a mess like this, and it looks like be rewarded for it.

• 20:41Alice Levine?

  Alan's interrupted as the lawyers enter the courtroom below. "Don't worry, Joe. Today will be different." Joe inhales sharply as Richard Roll walks up to the stand. He's their one chance to prove once and for all that Horizon is a fundamentally flawed system. She leans forward, fixes her eyes on Richard. But as she looks closer, she realises he's shaking. He's white as a sheet. His eyes flit around the room. He looks as though he's on the cusp of a panic attack. The post office barrister, Mr Degar Robinson, strides towards him. His double chin spreads as he smiles.

• 21:25Speaker 04

  "Mr Roll, you say in your witness statement that errors in Horizon weren't identified properly, that they were incorrectly attributed to sub-postmasters."

• 21:35Alice Levine?

  Richard nods nervously.

• 21:38Speaker 04

  "Correct."

• 21:39Alice Levine?

  Robinson sweeps his arm around the courtroom.

• 21:42Speaker 04

  "Perhaps you'd like to give us a specific example, an error or a bug you personally worked on."

• 21:48Alice Levine?

  Joe watches a bead of sweat run down Richard's face.

• 21:52Speaker 04

  "A- as a department, we were finding problems all the time."

• 21:56Alice Levine?

  Robinson spins on his heels.

• 21:59Speaker 04

  "As a department? But you weren't in the testing team."

• 22:03Alice Levine?

  Richard fidgets with his hands, mumbles.

• 22:07Speaker 04

  No, but we were on the same floor.

• 22:10Alice Levine?

  Robinson raises an eyebrow, his voice booming.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  So what you're saying, and I don't mean to be rude, is you're relying on office gossip from fifteen or even nineteen years ago?

• 22:25Matt Forde?

  It's not gossip, I'm not telling you what happened at the Christmas party. Yeah, Horizon was riddled with bugs and you'll never guess what the secretary's got up to.

• 22:33Alice Levine?

  Shouldn't really say, but Horizon was getting off with...

• 22:37Matt Forde?

  The photocopier. Horizon actually photocopied its ass. Right on minx.

• 22:43Alice Levine?

  Jo squeezes her eyes closed. When she looks back, Richard's on the verge of tears.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  I wouldn't say gossip.

• 22:52Alice Levine?

  She feels lightheaded, like the dark brown walls are closing in. But then Richard clears his throat.

• 22:59Speaker 04

  Um, but I did often strip all of the preamble and postamble data on a transaction. So I was left with the basic data, as if it had been on the transaction stack.

• 23:11Alice Levine?

  The barrister rocks back on his heels, a flash of confusion on his face. His mouth opens, but he doesn't speak. Richard continues.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Then I manually changed the transaction and reinjected the data. That's the process we used to rebuild a counter.

• 23:29Alice Levine?

  Jo hears Mr. Robinson stutter out.

• 23:32Speaker 04

  I don't follow.

• 23:34Alice Levine?

  But the judge, Mr. Justice Fraser, booms out.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  Well, I do. Carry on, Mr. Robinson.

• 23:41Alice Levine?

  Richard straightens his back.

• 23:43Speaker 04

  In other words, I remotely accessed sub-postmasters' terminals to fix bugs. I used their login details. They had no idea what was happening.

• 23:53Alice Levine?

  Jo sits up, leans forward.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  Whole teams of us had to do this regularly because Horizon was riddled with bugs. Twenty-nine of them. Horizon was a total mess from day one.

• 24:06Alice Levine?

  Joe gasps, watches Degar Robinson scramble with his notes. He lurches back to his bench, starts frantically flicking through his paperwork. The court deathly silent. She looks at Alan, grins and whispers, "Gotcha." Alan's eyes crease into a smile. "He's just pulled back the curtain on Horizon, Joe. Let's see them try and get out of this one."

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• 26:17Alice Levine?

  Nine months later, December 2019, Waterloo, London. Jo pulls her coat around her as she waits for the bus. The judge delivers his verdict today, and she wants to keep her nerves under control. But she hasn't slept, and her stomach's churning. After Richard gave his evidence, their lawyers are more confident. Their case is even getting more press coverage. But there are no guarantees it'll go their way.

• 26:48Alice Levine?

  She steps towards the bus when her phone rings. It's Alan. "I'm on my way now, Alan." But he cuts her off. "The post office wants a settlement. They've caved, Jo." She freezes. "What do you mean?" She hears Alan chuckle. "We're meeting with the legal team. How soon can you get here?"

• 27:14Alice Levine?

  An hour later, Jo makes her way to the lawyers' boardroom, squeezing between other excited sub-postmasters sitting around an enormous table. Takes in the air of jubilation as James Hartley, their solicitor, stands up.

• 27:30Speaker 04

  "Congratulations to you all. You took on the post office and beat them hands down. So, the settlement figure proposed by the Post Office Limited is... £57.75 million."

• 27:45Alice Levine?

  Jo hugs the person next to her, but then her eyes fall on Alan. He's frowning, frantically scribbling something on an old notepad. She watches him hold it up. "That's £19,819." Jo frowns. "What do you mean?" He hears him quietly say, "After we've paid our legal fees, this is what each of us will be entitled to." The room falls silent. For a moment, Jo feels sick. "It doesn't come close to the money we've all lost." Her voice catches in her throat. And it's not just the money. The ruined marriages, ill health, kids being bullied.

• 28:31Alice Levine?

  People took their own lives. She looks at their lawyer. Is the post office even apologising for any of this? She watches him look down at the table. If we agree to this settlement, which is what I would legally advise, the post office has no obligation to apologise. Jo crumples in her seat. Even when we win, it feels like we lose.

• 29:00Matt Forde?

  This feels so weird. So the post office is settling tens of millions of pounds, but that still wouldn't mean that her name was cleared?

• 29:09Alice Levine?

  No, as we know, these huge settlements happen out of court. The one that springs to mind, of course, is Prince Andrew, where there's no admission of guilt. And in this case, the criminal convictions stand. She closes her eyes, sees a fleeting image of her parents, both gone now. She'd promised them she'd get justice. She opens her eyes and decides, if this is the best deal they can get, so be it. But she'll be damned if she'll stay a criminal in the eyes of the law. She'll take this judgement to the Court of Appeal, get her criminal record overturned, force an apology, and finally, clear her name.

• 29:54Alice Levine?

  And wants him for all.

• 30:02Alice Levine?

  November 2020, Paul Marshall's house, London.

• 30:08Alice Levine?

  Barrister Paul Marshall clears the remains of the family dinner, then dumps the heavy box of files on his dining room table. He rubs at his aching back.

• 30:18Matt Forde?

  Should have bent from the knees.

• 30:19Alice Levine?

  He's been working at home for weeks due to lockdown, trying to pull together his case for the sub-postmaster's appeal. Hamilton and others versus the post office is just six days away. Forty-two sub-postmasters fighting to overturn their criminal convictions. And he's determined to prove their innocence. But he's had to ring the post office countless times to get them to send files. Tonight, at last, a courier dropped off another batch.

• 30:50Alice Levine?

  Paul grabs the scissors, slices the box open, looks at the names on the prosecution files. Tracy Felstead, Janet Skinner, Seema Misra. Feels the pain in his back again. He's still recovering from surgery for cancer, but he fights his exhaustion, grabs Seema Misra's file, starts to read.

• 31:12Matt Forde?

  Okay, earlier when I said he should have bent from the knees, I didn't realise why he was in pain, but I've had surgery for cancer, so I can say it. He's still got to bend from the knees.

• 31:22Alice Levine?

  He rubs at his aching head as he tries to understand what he's looking at. Squints back at the file, at a series of emails from July 2013, sent from the post office's own barrister, Simon Clark, to senior managers. "It is my expert advice that, given the flaws outlined by the Second Sight Report in 2013, no further prosecutions citing Horizon should be undertaken." He slumps back, stares around the room in shock. His heart smacks against his ribs as he reads it again.

• 31:56Alice Levine?

  He reaches for another of Clark's emails, sent shortly after. "It is my robust advice in the interests of fairness and integrity not to shred any further documents. Shredding such documents to avoid disclosure is a perversion of the course of justice and must stop immediately."

• 32:15Matt Forde?

  This is alarming. One, he's saying, "No more prosecutions", and that line suggests that they were shredding documents so that they didn't have to tell the opposing legal team.

• 32:24Alice Levine?

  You never want to see the phrase, "Stop shredding documents", when you're trying to look like a legit squeaky-clean outfit. No, no, we just always say it. "Don't shred documents", we haven't been shredding them, but it's, everybody remember, as we've always been doing, keep not shredding documents.

• 32:40Matt Forde?

  Yeah, and the shredders we've got, that's for sustainability. We shred everything apart from documents.

• 32:45Alice Levine?

  Like what, Matt?

• 32:46Matt Forde?

  Napkins, junk mail, which we don't believe counts, documents, clothing, food waste.

• 32:55Alice Levine?

  He lets the paper fall from his hands. For a moment, he can't move. The post office knew their convictions were unsand back in 2013, seven years ago, and continued to knowingly put innocent people in jail, then destroyed the evidence in a cover-up. In his 30 years at the bar, he's never seen anything like this. He grabs Tracy Felsted's file. 19 years old when she was accused of stealing £11,503. How her family got a loan to pay it back. How she was sent to prison anyway for six months. Tried to commit suicide twice.

• 33:37Alice Levine?

  How she's still suffering from the trauma. And Janet Skinner's file. How she'd been put in handcuffs, given a nine-month sentence. How when she got out, the post office demanded £11,500 compensation on top of the £59,000 they claimed she'd stolen. She'd lost her house, had a breakdown, became paralyzed from the neck down, and spent four months in hospital. All because the post office lied. And covered it up. He closes the file, breathes hard, then snatches up his mobile. But then he stops.

• 34:20Alice Levine?

  This isn't something that can be handled on the phone. He shoves the file in his briefcase. Shaking with anger, he grabs his car keys. The post office hasn't just been putting innocent people in jail. They've been shredding evidence that could prove their innocence. They've committed perjury, lied to everyone, organised a mass cover-up. He'll tell every single one of his clients exactly what's happened. But first, he's going to tell the police.

• 35:00Alice Levine?

  A few days later, November 2020, London. Post office barrister Brian Altman unclips the dog's lead and takes off his coat. He wanted to take a longer walk, clear his head, try and get some inspiration for the sub-postmaster's appeal. But lockdown rules are still in place. His five-minute walk around the block will have to do.

• 35:23Matt Forde?

  So at this point, him and his dog could form a bubble with three of the people if they had a cat, but they couldn't drink in the pub unless they were having food and the cat and the dog sat on another table?

• 35:34Alice Levine?

  Correct. Well remembered. He heads into his study, switches on his lamp, re-reads his notes, looks again at the note from the post office auditor, Graham Brander, in the Jo Hamilton file. Having analysed Mrs Hamilton's Horizon printouts and accounting documentation form, I was unable to find any evidence of theft or that the cash figures had been deliberately inflated.

• 35:59Matt Forde?

  And this is from Graham Brander, who, we'll remember from episode one, went to Jo's post office and treated her like she was guilty from the very first moment.

• 36:09Alice Levine?

  Absolutely. He was incredibly intimidating and incredibly determined to find the evidence that he, inverted commas, "knew was there".

• 36:16Matt Forde?

  And even he's saying he can't find any evidence.

• 36:20Alice Levine?

  Altman exhales slowly. He's been a barrister for almost 40 years now. In his time, he's prosecuted drug dealers, money launderers, even serial killers. But right now, representing the post office against these 42 sub-postmasters feels like climbing a mountain. Horizon has already been shown to be faulty, so now there's no firm evidence against any of them. He prides himself on his eagle-eyed ability to spot details, develop original arguments, but there's nothing here to grab on to. He's in court tomorrow, and he doesn't have a thing. He snatches up his mobile. What is it? His junior sounds anxious.

• 37:06Alice Levine?

  Subpostmasters have obtained emails from 2013 from Simon Clarke. Altman jolts forward. What emails? He listens as she reads. Given the flaws outlined by the Second Sight Report in 2013, no further prosecutions citing Horizon should be undertaken. I also advise Post Office Limited review all past prosecutions based on Horizon data. A vein starts to throb behind Altman's eye. Why wasn't I told about this? He hears his junior take a breath. There's more. They've got emails from Mr Clarke advising the Post Office to stop shredding emails about Horizon. Altman squeezes his eyes shut, feels his skin prickle, snaps out:

• 37:51Alice Levine?

  How the hell did the sub-postmasters get this information? He hears the junior clear her throat. Apparently the emails were sent to the subpostmaster's barrister, Paul Marshall, and he took them to the police. Altman swallows. The police? Are you sure? I, I am. I'm afraid so. He clicks off the call, collapses in his seat and sits, eyes closed, motionless. Then his eyes spring open as it hits him. Tomorrow in court, it won't be the sub-postmasters he'll aim at. It'll be Paul Marshall.

• 38:31Alice Levine?

  And if Marshall falls, then Jo Hamilton and the other sub-postmasters' appeals will go down with him.

• 38:44Alice Levine?

  The following day, Court of Appeal, London. Paul Marshall stands before the three appeal judges. He's not sure why he's been called here, but the judges look grave. And right now, he can't ignore the heavy knot in the pit of his stomach. He spins as Brian Altman QC strides up, bows to the judges. My lords, it's been brought to my attention that court documents have been sent to a third party. I'd like to remind the court the unauthorized onward transmission of court documents is a breach of common law.

• 39:20Matt Forde?

  So these specific documents that we know as the Clark files are things that Paul had to really work hard to find. So they go through a process of disclosure where both side has to send the other information that may be harmful to their own case. But this was buried in stacks and stacks of paper. So it's credit to Paul that he had the dedication and the eye to find this stuff. Obviously, it's incendiary evidence. This is just a technical thing about whether, even though he's discovered wrongdoing, whether he should have waited until after the trial to pass that on to the police.

• 39:53Alice Levine?

  Paul's mouth dries. He stutters out.

• 39:57Speaker 04

  Nothing I've done is unlawful.

• 39:59Alice Levine?

  But Altman booms over him. I believe such contempt of court is punishable by a fine. Paul feels his face flush, then drain of all colour, as Altman continues. Or potentially imprisonment.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  Imprisonment? This is outrageous!

• 40:19Alice Levine?

  But his heartbeat quickens as he watches the three judges whisper to each other. Lord Justice Holroyd fixes him with a glare. Mr. Marshall, I suggest you get yourself a barrister. Return to court tomorrow. Paul shakes his head, his eyes wide.

• 40:37Speaker 04

  But I'm not on trial here. The post office has been shredding vital evidence. It's destroyed hundreds, potentially thousands of pieces of...

• 40:46Alice Levine?

  But Lord Justice Holroyd looks furious. Procedural impropriety will not be accepted in this court. The integrity of the law itself depends on it. Paul steps back, dazed as the judges get to their feet. His hand shakes as he scrolls through his phone and searches for a barrister's number.

• 41:05Matt Forde?

  He is a barrister, so you'd hope he'd know at least one other one.

• 41:09Alice Levine?

  Teachers know teachers, you know, cops know cops.

• 41:12Matt Forde?

  Podcasters know podcasters.

• 41:13Alice Levine?

  Podcasters know podcasters.

• 41:14Matt Forde?

  I mean, I'm never in a situation where someone says, "Get me a podcaster now!"

• 41:18Alice Levine?

  Is there a podcaster here? Someone's had a heart attack on the plane!

• 41:21Matt Forde?

  We need someone to...

• 41:22Alice Levine?

  Soothe them with their dulcet tones. The next day, he takes his painkillers, then follows his barrister into the courtroom. If this judgment goes against him, he could go to prison. He blinks around the empty courtroom, the heavy oak panelling he's seen 100 times, the red velvet curtains hanging from brass rods behind the judge's bench. But he's never been here as a defendant. His QC gets to his feet.

• 41:54Alice Levine?

  I would argue that no contempt has in fact been committed. My client simply reported a crime. I suggest the court has been led in the wrong direction in this matter by the post office. He watches Altman jump up. My lords, the law and due process cannot be ignored. If this matter's overlooked, it could undermine the entire judicial system. Paul shakes his head. He wants to yell out that this whole thing is a sham, that this is what the post office has done for years: delay, intimidate, bully. But he never thought for one minute he'd be in the firing line. He's taken this case pro bono, outraged at the treatment of the sub-postmasters.

• 42:34Alice Levine?

  But as he looks up, he starts to wonder whether he's really prepared to risk his freedom, risk his future. Lord Justice Holroyd is glaring at him. Mr Marshall, we will now retire to deliberate. The judges stand and leave. Paul breathes through his pain and waits for the verdict.

• 42:57Alice Levine?

  Thirty minutes later, the three judges return. Paul blinks over at them, tries to read their expressions, but they look like stone. His heart jumps in his throat as Lord Justice Holroyd delivers his verdict. The court has decided to set aside the issue of contempt until after the sub-postmasters' appeals have been heard.

• 43:21Alice Levine?

  Paul lets out a gasp, catches Altman look away, his eyebrows raising in surprise.

• 43:29Alice Levine?

  Outside in the fresh air, Paul takes a deep breath, stares across the road at St Clement Danes Church, and struggles to gather his thoughts. He knows he won't be helping himself if he continues with this case, especially if he takes the clerk files to court. But if he steps back now, the sub-postmaster's case could be delayed. They could be denied justice because of him. So he decides he'll continue, and he'll still use the clerk files. He won't be intimidated. They may well want to punish him for going to the police with the files, but they can't stop him using them in court. He'll get these convictions overturned.

• 44:14Alice Levine?

  This is the smoking gun that will ensure Joe Hamilton and the others leave the courtroom as innocent people. He's going to blow the lid on this whole establishment cover-up.

• 44:34Speaker 03

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• 45:04Speaker 03

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• 45:08Speaker 07

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• 45:13Speaker 03

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• 45:16Speaker 07

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• 45:20Speaker 03

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• 45:27Alice Levine?

  April 2021, the Royal Courts of Justice. Jo takes her position behind the red marker, squints out at the lights. She's due to do a live piece for BBC Breakfast any minute. Only she can't stop shivering. She'd been so distracted when she left home this morning, she forgot to wear a coat. "Mrs. Hamilton, what are you hoping for from today's verdict?" She pulls herself up to her full height. "None of us did anything wrong.

• 46:11Alice Levine?

  My journey won't be over until my prosecution is overturned." She gestures at the sub-postmasters behind her. "And the convictions of every other sub-postmaster wrongly prosecuted by the Post Office."

• 46:25Alice Levine?

  A short while later, she heads along the marble corridor, up the Gothic staircase, and into the courtroom. Her heart jumps when the three judges walk in. For a few moments, all she can hear is her pulse in her ears. She watches Lord Justice Holroyd slowly shuffle his papers, then start his verdict.

• 46:48Alice Levine?

  "In light of Horizon's evident deficiencies, we are here today to review the criminal convictions of 42 sub-postmasters."

• 46:58Matt Forde?

  "Sounds like a good start."

• 46:59Alice Levine?

  "I like to hear deficiencies."

• 47:00Matt Forde?

  "Do you know what? Following these trousers up watching England at the World Cup, you're like, you don't want to go 1-0 up too early, because it makes you nervous. You're like, if anything, let's just get to half-time 0-0."

• 47:09Alice Levine?

  "You need to feel the rhythm of it, because you're thinking, he's going to do a butt. However, oh no, no." She shuffles forward. Here's how the Post Office knew Horizon had problems as far back as 2009, after it was highlighted in Computer Weekly. But Post Office Limited denied it. When Second Sight forensic accountants concluded in 2013 that Horizon was flawed, Post Office Limited failed to act. He clears his throat. Which brings us on to the Clark advice. Jo blinks over at the other sub-postmasters, watches someone shrug. Thanks to Mr Marshall, we recently discovered that the Post Office barrister,

• 47:53Alice Levine?

  Simon Clark, advised Post Office Limited to cease all Horizon-based prosecutions, to review prosecutions already undertaken, and to stop the shredding of vital evidence on Horizon and its faults. Her jaw hangs open. She hears herself mutter. They shredded documents. The judge looks over the top of his glasses at the Post Office barristers. Which may well amount to a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. For a moment, Jo can't move. They knew, and they covered it up.

• 48:34Alice Levine?

  No matter how many times she thinks the Post Office are the lowest of the low, they hit new depths.

• 48:41Matt Forde?

  This would hit you like a juggernaut, because it's hard enough to stomach knowing that the technology was flawed, but you could sort of maybe get yourself to a position where you thought, well, look, if they really trusted the technology, then that's different, even though it's wrong. But when you're now told that they were shredding documents that would prove your innocence, it's the deceit, it's knowing, feeling that you'd been effectively manipulated that whole time.

• 49:06Alice Levine?

  She snaps too when she hears her name.

• 49:10Alice Levine?

  Josephine Hamilton. We conclude her conviction was unfair and an affront to justice. Her heart leaps to her throat. Therefore, we quash her convictions on all 14 counts.

• 49:28Alice Levine?

  She lets out a gasp, tries to speak but something catches in her throat. She realises she's crying. Seema Misra, we quash her convictions on counts of false accounting and theft. Noel Thomas, we quash his conviction. Tracy Felstead, Janet Skinner. Jo looks around, people are laughing and crying.

• 49:53Alice Levine?

  Others silently hold up urns with the ashes of sub-postmasters who've died. She closes her eyes, takes a moment to think about her own parents, then mutters, "I told you I wouldn't let the bastards get me down."

• 50:10Alice Levine?

  When she steps outside, a group of reporters yell questions at her. "Mrs. Hamilton, how does it feel to clear your name?" For a second, she doesn't know how to answer. She's lived with a heavy feeling of guilt for so long, she's not used to being without it. She looks straight at the camera. "The post office has lied for years, nobody's been held accountable. This fight isn't over." A voice breaks through the crowd. "Jo!" She looks over and sees a group from her village, holding a "congratulations" banner. Someone opens a bottle of fizzy wine to celebrate.

• 50:50Matt Forde?

  "Sorry, can I... I'm not that into Prosecco, I know this isn't the time, but if it's Carver or Cremont, or obviously champagne, I'm up for it, but nay."

• 50:58Alice Levine?

  Ever so sweet, sickly, but thank you for the sentiment, thank you.

• 51:02Matt Forde?

  "I mean, if anything, I'd prefer Chianti Classica if you've got a medium-bodied Italian red."

• 51:07Alice Levine?

  She holds up her paper cup for the cameras, feels the sun on her face, and for the first time in eighteen years, finally feels the tension lift. She smiles into the cameras. She'll soak this victory up, take in every moment. And tomorrow, she'll start again. She'll fight until every innocent sub-postmaster is cleared and fully compensated. Until the post office and its execs are made to answer for everything they've done. And she won't ever give in.

• 51:54Alice Levine?

  Jo Hamilton is still leading the fight for postmasters, ruined by the Horizon scandal. Awarded an OBE in 2025, she's pushing for full compensation and accountability. Paula Venables returned her CBE in 2024 and stepped away from her church and corporate roles. She said she was truly sorry for the devastation caused to sub-postmasters. Sir Alan Bates settled with the government for millions and was knighted in 2024 for exposing the scandal. Around 10,000 people were affected, with at least 13 suicides linked. The Post Office paid £600 million to keep using the flawed Horizon system, locked in

• 52:39Alice Levine?

  under a long-term Fujitsu contract. Fujitsu made £22 million in UK pre-tax profits, but hasn't paid a penny in compensation.

• 53:00Alice Levine?

  From Audible Originals and Samasdat Audio, this is the third episode in our series, The Post Office Scandal. A quick note about our dialogue: in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research. British Scandal was hosted by me, Alice Levine.

• 53:16Matt Forde?

  And me, Matt Ford.

• 53:18Alice Levine?

  Written by Karen Laws. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor was James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer was Jai Williams. For Samasdat, our series producer was Chica Rez. Our assistant producer was Louise Mason. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dashalisa Tsina. Executive producers for Audible were Theodora Leludis and Astell Doyle.

• 53:51Speaker 06

  In the summer of 1881, US Army Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and 24 other men embarked on an ambitious scientific mission to the northernmost reaches of the Arctic. But despite several triumphs of discovery, the men would soon face tragedy. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, after Adolphus Greeley and his men arrive at their destination, more than 1,000 miles above the Arctic Circle, they get to work collecting scientific data and exploring the frigid landscape. But when resupply ships fail to reach them two summers in a row, they're forced to set out on a desperate

• 54:34Speaker 06

  search for rescue, and not all of them will make it home. Follow American History Tellers wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American History Tellers: Greeley Arctic Expedition early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 54:52Speaker 05

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and ad-free on Audible.