Pod Insights British Scandal Anne Boleyn | A Queen Condemned | 3 About this episode A queen's fortunes can change in the blink of an eye. As Henry grows distant and Cromwell plots against her, Anne finds herself facing a life-or-death trial that will shock the court, and the country.
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Transcript 7,984 words · 16 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Alice Levine? Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:13 Matt Forde? What are you grinning at? What are you reading over there?
0:15 Alice Levine? Oh, I just got such a lovely email from the bosses of British Scandal. I don't know, my heart's warmed. I'll just read you a line. It says, "Thank you for your incredible work. You are a talent, a gem, and we are lucky to have you."
0:29 Matt Forde? That's so cool.
0:29 Alice Levine? So nice.
0:32 Matt Forde? There's nothing in my inbox.
0:33 Alice Levine? Oh. I'll just read you another bit. It says, "You and you alone make the show what it is. A once-in-a-lifetime talent."
0:43 Matt Forde? I mean, it's great that they love what you're doing. Is that to both of us? Can you see my email on there?
0:48 Alice Levine? No, no, just to me. And the last bit, which is just making me blush, it says, "You're so good at reading the story as the narrator, but we also love you doing the ad-libs. Is there any way to combine the two?" Which, there is, so it's a great idea.
1:04 Matt Forde? I'm really happy for you, but I feel like I'm being squeezed out here. This feels like bad news for me.
1:08 Alice Levine? I think you're being a little bit paranoid. I mean, you are, and you know this, very important. You are very fine at what you do, and I think you're just maybe letting the little green-eyed monster get in the way. So I want you to paint that smile back on your face, Mark. Matt? Mark? Anyway. Shall we get going?
1:35 Matt Forde? March 15, 36, Greenwich Palace. Anne races down the corridor towards Henry's private chamber. She adjusts the busty air of her black silk gown and spreads her hair loose across her shoulders, dabs her neck with the scent of rosewater. But reaching the door, she stops in her tracks, thrown by the sound coming from within. She edges forward. Bile rises in her throat as she hears it again, louder this time. The unmistakable sound of a feminine giggle, followed by Henry's familiar rumbling laugh.
2:14 Matt Forde? She pushes the door open. Her mouth falls open in horror as she takes in the scene. Henry in his great chair and perched upon his knee, her lady in waiting, Jane Seymour. Your Majesty, I, um... Jane scrambles to her feet, her eyes fixed on the floor. Just what do you think you are doing? It's a new game called Married Man Knee Bants, where a married man who would never cheat bantses a lady on his knee to prove his love to his wife.
2:46 Alice Levine? I know what you're gonna say, why doesn't he have any pants on? But that is actually part of the game.
2:51 Matt Forde? Yes, we're playing French rules. But to her horror, the king reaches for Jane's hand. You forget yourself, madam. It is customary to be announced before entering the king's private chambers. Anne stares at him in shock. Then her cheeks burn as rage takes hold. I forget myself? You sit with another woman while your wife walks these halls? Anne watches Henry's face harden. She shudders as his voice drops to a growl. Mistress Seymour has a modesty and innocence you sadly lack. She brings me comfort.
3:32 Matt Forde? Anne feels her heart thud against her rib cage. She turns and rushes back down the hallway. Tears blur her vision as she stumbles into her antique chair. Your Majesty, are you unwell? She spins round, stares at her resident musician, Mark Smeaton. Anne feels her cheeks flush. Mark, I, um... Anne searches for something to say, but no words come. Her eyes moisten again. Perhaps if I played for you, it would ease your pain?
4:11 Alice Levine? I've heard that before. Put it back in the case, mate.
4:14 Matt Forde? She snaps back. I fear nothing could, not when the king and his concubine... Anne turns away, ashamed of her indiscretion. Forgive me, Your Majesty. Anne feels him step forward. But the king doesn't deserve your tears. Any man would be blessed beyond measure to have your love.
4:39 Matt Forde? She turns and looks at him in shock. Blood pumps hot through her veins as she studies his young handsome face. Something stirs within her. Something she hasn't felt for so long. "You must not say such things." Anne knows her words lack conviction. Despite herself, she edges towards him. "What do you see when you look at me, Mark?"
5:04 Speaker 02 "I see the most beautiful woman in the kingdom, Your Majesty. A woman who deserves true love and devotion."
5:11 Alice Levine? "Jesus Christ."
5:13 Matt Forde? She studies him. His dark curls, his plump lips.
5:17 Alice Levine? "Stop."
5:19 Matt Forde? Those delicate fingers that dance so effortlessly when he plays. "Can I ask, is this show changing?" "I'm not against it. I just want to know if we're veering off into erotica." Her heartbeat quickens. To be caught so close to another man, even like this, could ruin her. Could ruin her entire family. But would it really be so terrible to take some comfort for herself? Just this once?
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7:14 Matt Forde? From Wondery, I'm Matt Ford.
7:16 Alice Levine? And I'm Alice Levine.
7:17 Matt Forde? And this is British Scandal.
7:31 Matt Forde? So Anne Boleyn's done it, Alice. She's become queen, she's won Henry's heart. I mean, she's found it slightly harder to win over the people. Can you sympathise at all?
7:41 Alice Levine? I'll be honest with you, Matt, and this might be controversial. I've found her a little bit tricky to warm to.
7:46 Matt Forde? Okay, and why's that?
7:47 Alice Levine? Okay, so there is an argument that she's just acted in love. You know, she genuinely does feel for Henry. But she has been ruthless, hasn't she? She has been a wily fox, particularly in her treatment of Catherine and the way that she stitched up Wolsey. But is that her personality? Does that speak to her intrinsic manipulativeness? Or is that just the behaviour of an ambitious woman trying to get her family into a more secure position and just the way that you have to operate in Tudor times? So, no, I probably wouldn't want to go for a coffee with her, or maybe I would, to stay on her good side. But I do appreciate that this is probably a huge amount to do with the way that power gets transferred at this time.
8:28 Matt Forde? I think you should go for a coffee. I think the two of you would get on. I think you've got lots in common.
8:33 Alice Levine? Wow, okay, cool.
8:34 Matt Forde? We ended the last episode at a really dangerous point for Anne. She'd had a miscarriage and the king has had a serious fall from his horse. One teensy tiny brush with death and he's reassessing absolutely everything in his life, despite how hard he's worked to make Anne his queen. Given how she's conducted herself, do you think she's just getting what's coming to her?
8:55 Alice Levine? That's interesting. Yes, in a sense, because the house always wins. If you are playing a power game with the king, generally it's going to be the king that ends up fine and you that ends up damaged. But ultimately, I just can't believe that anybody's fate should be bound into one person's, frankly, inconsistent interpretation of what God might or might not be thinking. All that said, what is coming to her?
9:20 Matt Forde? We're about to find out. This is episode three, A Queen Condemned.
9:28 Matt Forde? Four months earlier, January 1536, the Queen's chambers, Greenwich Palace.
9:36 Matt Forde? Anne pushes the wet bed sheets from her body, tries to ignore the stench of blood in the room, and blurts out the question she hasn't dared utter.
9:45 Speaker 05 Was it a boy?
9:47 Matt Forde? The words hang in the air. Yes, Your Majesty. Anne presses a fist against her mouth to stop herself from crying out. This is her third miscarriage, but despite the pain, she forces herself up from the bed. She last saw her husband as he was lying beneath his fallen horse. She must go to him. She steadies her feet and takes a small step forward as the door opens to reveal the Lord Privy Seal, Thomas Cromwell. Anne beckons him in.
10:19 Speaker 05 The king, tell me.
10:22 Speaker 02 He was unconscious for two hours. His leg is badly crushed, but the physicians say he will recover.
10:30 Speaker 05 Thank God. He will need me. We can comfort each other.
10:35 Matt Forde? To her shock, Cromwell moves in front of her, blocking her path.
10:40 Speaker 02 Your Majesty, the king does not wish to see you at this time.
10:45 Matt Forde? She stares at him for a moment.
10:48 Matt Forde? Then she realises. Has he been told about the child? Dread creeps over Anne as Cromwell quietly answers.
10:57 Speaker 02 He has been told. If you go to the king now, it will only anger him more.
11:03 Alice Levine? Can you imagine that being your reaction if your wife had just lost a baby?
11:07 Matt Forde? Well, this is Henry VIII we're talking about, and we know that he's got form for blaming women for having miscarriages. But there is a contemporary theory about Henry VIII that after his accident when he falls off that horse that we covered in the last episode, that brain injury actually changed his personality. He became far more vengeful and far more angry.
11:29 Matt Forde? Anne feels tears prick her eyes as she collapses back on the bed. She shakes her head. I am his queen. I have every right. Speak to him for me, Thomas. Remind him of all we have accomplished. She locks eyes with Cromwell, imploring him. Tell him I'm as fertile as when we first met. I will give him a living son. Anne feels herself relaxed a little as Cromwell places a gentle hand on her shoulder.
12:00 Matt Forde? I will do my best for you, as I always have. Anne nods, a little reassured. She hates having to relinquish her power, put her trust in another to win her own husband round. But she has no choice. Right now, Cromwell is her only line of access to the king, and she'll take any route she can to win him back.
12:30 Matt Forde? The following day, January fifteen thirty-six, the king's chambers, Greenwich Palace. Thomas Cromwell brushes down his dark robe. He digs into his pocket, pulls out a signet ring bearing the emblem of a black raven, a gift from his beloved former mentor, Cardinal Wolsey. Cromwell learned from Wolsey how to navigate Henry's impulsive moods, and he knows that today, Henry will be in a foul temper. The cardinal also taught him what happens to those who displease the king.
13:06 Matt Forde? Anne has always been useful to him. She helped him replace Wolsey as the king's chief advisor. Now he knows that by fighting her corner, he's walking a tightrope.
13:17 Alice Levine? So at this point, we've jumped forward about seven-ish years since the accident. So what happened to Walsey?
13:23 Matt Forde? So Walsey died on the 29th of November, 1529. And you may remember in the previous episode, Henry had banished him, but let him become Archbishop of York. Henry then changes his mind and decides that Walsey has committed treason. So he's summoned to the Tower of London. Walsey dies on the way there, during the journey, of natural causes, probably of dysentery.
13:45 Alice Levine? What a way to go.
13:47 Matt Forde? Cromwell breathes deeply, pauses, and knocks. Enter.
13:57 Matt Forde? Cromwell pushes open the door. Immediately, he has to take cover as a steaming venison pie flies past his head. Did I not say I have no appetite? Get out, all of you, out! The servants and physicians who'd been milling around the room scatter like mice, muttering apologies. Cromwell takes a deep breath. Your Majesty, how is the leg? Henry meets him with a grimace. It pains me, everything pains me. I suppose you heard the child was a boy? Cromwell nods. I've spoken to the Queen. She is recovering, though grief-stricken. That's what I wanted to talk to you about, sir.
14:42 Matt Forde? The Queen is still young. I spoke with her physician. He told me the child was malformed, monstrous. Cromwell stays silent, as his master's voice drops to a whisper. A judgment. Cromwell looks at Henry, confused. God has shown me the way forward. Henry stays on him. And must go. Cromwell hesitates for a beat. He stares at Henry's manic eyes. A new queen must be found, Cromwell. One who can give England a prince. Your Majesty, to set aside a second wife so soon... Cromwell stiffens, as the king's grip on his arm tightens. The queen has committed no crime.
15:28 Matt Forde? There are no legal grounds for divorce. Then find legal grounds. A chill runs down Cromwell's spine as the king's voice drops to a murmur. He feels the sharp edge of the cardinal's ring in his pocket. His mentor's pained face flashing before his eyes. A bead of sweat forms on Cromwell's temple, as Henry settles back into his pillow. Anne can be queen no more. See to it. Cromwell bows dutifully. He will have to do the king's bidding. He'd come to plead the queen's case. He is leaving with a mission to destroy her.
16:07 Matt Forde? But he'll need to tread softly.
16:10 Matt Forde? Anne Berlin is a good friend. But she can also make a dangerous enemy.
16:22 Matt Forde? February 1536, Whitehall Palace. Anne's heart thuds, as she peers into the great hall and takes in the hundreds of guests in masks, all here for the king's annual St Valentine's Ball. She cups her still aching belly, feeling her loss as keenly as ever.
16:43 Matt Forde? She wishes she didn't have to be here. She's barely left her chambers these past few weeks, as vicious rumours about her miscarriage have spread at court. She feels her eyes start to well, but admonishes herself. She knows this is her best opportunity to reassert herself, and remind all these fools that she is queen. She smooths down her crimson gown and enters. Only to stop sharply at the sight of Henry, greeting a young woman dressed in bright blue silk. Anne's newest lady-in-waiting, Jane Seymour. Her stomach knots as she watches the king lean in close, letting her whisper in his ear. His booming laugh echoes around the hall.
17:28 Alice Levine? Isn't this just evidence that as the Queen, you should have absolute twos, threes and fours as your ladies-in-waiting? Stop having absolute babes look after you. Because Anne was a lady-in-waiting to Catherine, Jane was a lady-in-waiting to Anne. Ladies, it's obvious what to do. Old maids.
17:50 Matt Forde? Great idea. Old nobbly maids. Anne feels herself start to redden until she spots Cromwell in the crowd, marches over and pulls him into a nearby antechamber. What fresh hell is this? My husband flirts with other women like I no longer exist. And why have you not visited me?
18:14 Matt Forde? A moment passes before Cromwell meets her gaze.
18:18 Speaker 02 Since the loss of his son, His Majesty believes your marriage is cursed. I have tried to convince him otherwise, but...
18:26 Matt Forde? Anne's voice cracks as she interjects. But what? She stays on Cromwell. He lowers his voice.
18:33 Speaker 02 Your Majesty, I want to spare your humiliation. If you would agree to retire gracefully, the King would ensure you want for nothing.
18:43 Matt Forde? He wishes to cast me aside? Anne feels the room start to spin. She takes a sharp breath. You counsel me to surrender?
18:53 Speaker 02 I counsel prudence. A divorce would...
18:57 Matt Forde? Anne's heard enough. Her face flushes again, not with humiliation this time, but anger. She's the Queen of England. She will not crawl away in shame. She turns to the nearest nobleman, taps him on the arm. Dance with me, my lord. Anne sees a flash of concern on the nobleman's face. His eyes dart from her towards Henry's imposing bulk on the throne, then back again. She eyeballs him, practically ordering him.
19:27 Speaker 02 Your Majesty, I'd be honoured. I'd be petrified.
19:33 Matt Forde? She pulls the man onto the dance floor and over his shoulder sees Henry's eyes follow as her hand lingers on the nobleman's arm. She smiles as she watches Henry's mouth twitch with displeasure. A rush of exhilaration overwhelms her. She's always had a hold over Henry's urges despite everything. Could the King be jealous?
19:57 Matt Forde? To hell with Cromwell and his advice. Anne will not retreat to some damp castle to hide. Instead, she will remind Henry exactly what he's missing.
20:11 Matt Forde? March 1536, Greenwich Palace, Anne's presence chamber. Cromwell takes in the array of rich garments and fabrics spread across the ornate chairs. No doubt part of Anne's latest attempt to catch the king's eye. She has made a fool of herself with her provocative behaviour, and Henry is starting to lose patience. So Cromwell is here to give Anne an ultimatum: to step aside and accept Henry's request for divorce, or face him in the courts.
20:43 Speaker 02 Your flirtations with members of your court have made your position most precarious. A lowly musician, for heaven's sake!
20:51 Matt Forde? But to Cromwell's horror, Anne cuts him off, her dark eyes flashing. It is your position that is precarious. You would do well to remember that you would be nothing without my influence. Cromwell feels his face flush with uncharacteristic fury.
21:09 Speaker 02 Your Majesty forgets herself!
21:12 Matt Forde? He's sick of Anne's games. But Anne stuns him by laughing. I forget myself? You forget yourself, Thomas. The son of a blacksmith, a common lawyer who climbed higher than he ought. Cromwell bites his tongue as he feels each word strike like a lash. And now you think to lecture me, a queen, on marital affairs? When you no longer have a wife of your own? Cromwell sucks in his breath. Too furious to retort, he simply bows and withdraws from the room.
21:52 Alice Levine? With hindsight, it seems really delusional of Anne to not just take the package, go to the castle, get out of sight, be quiet, don't put up a fight. And maybe it seems like you should know this is coming. Look what happened to Catherine. You were part of her downfall. But that must have felt like a real anomaly. That must have felt unbelievable. And she's genuinely in love with Henry and feels like he was once genuinely in love with her. So the idea of crawling away and disappearing must have seemed impossible to her.
22:25 Matt Forde? Yeah, it wouldn't have occurred to her that he would do it twice. But her belief that she can command Cromwell, when all the power rests with the king, Cromwell is clearly doing the king's bidding. And Cromwell really has no incentive to help her at all because he knows what Henry wants him to do with her. He's seen what happened to Wolsey when he doesn't carry out the king's wishes. And on top of that, if he had any lingering sympathy or loyalty to her, she's just insulted him about the death of his wife. His wife and children had died of sweating sickness, basically the Covid of the day. So it's really unlikely that he's going to help her out.
23:05 Matt Forde? An hour later, back in the oak-paneled private study at his home, Austin Friar's, Cromwell smiles as he hears a tentative knock at his door. He looks up as a fresh-faced Jane Seymour enters and takes a seat opposite. He offers her a goblet of spiced wine. She eyes him fearfully. Master Cromwell, have I done something to displease His Majesty? Cromwell smiles kindly. Quite the contrary, Mistress Seymour. Tell me, have you enjoyed your recent meetings with the king? To Cromwell's delight, Jane blushes. Very much. His Grace has been most kind. Cromwell leans forward. He has been more than kind. He has been...
23:52 Speaker 02 Interested?
23:53 Matt Forde? Jane lowers her eyes, seemingly embarrassed. Cromwell smiles.
23:58 Speaker 02 The Queen's position grows more precarious by the day.
24:03 Matt Forde? Jane looks awkward now. She's still one of Anne's ladies in waiting, and he knows she'll be fearful of jeopardising her position. But it's time to make it clear to Anne and the court that her time is finished.
24:17 Speaker 02 I wonder if you'd consider moving into my private apartment at Greenwich. That way you would be away from the tensions of the Queen's court and more available to the King.
24:29 Alice Levine? What part of that is appealing?
24:31 Matt Forde? Also, it's not just the personal nature of it, it's how powerful these people are. It would be like the Chancellor trying to set you up with the Prime Minister. Going, "Why don't you just come and stay at number 11 and then, you know, when he's done PMQs, you two can, uh, I'd be like, "Yeah, fine."
24:47 Alice Levine? It's your dream.
24:50 Matt Forde? Cromwell sees Jane visibly relaxed, takes a small sip of the wine.
24:55 Speaker 02 I serve at His Majesty's pleasure.
24:58 Matt Forde? Cromwell nods approvingly. Grooming Jane Seymour is the first step towards achieving Henry's aim of getting rid of the Queen. Now all he needs to do is build his case. A case against her so strong that she can find no way back to the King's heart. A case that won't just lead to Anne Boleyn being stripped of her crown. It will end with her losing her head too.
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26:41 Matt Forde? 30th of April, 1536, Austin Friars, London.
26:48 Matt Forde? Cromwell paces the stone floor of the candlelit basement. He leans menacingly towards Mark Smeaton, who's perched before him on a stool, his hands twisting nervously on his lap.
27:00 Alice Levine? Strumming, probably.
27:02 Speaker 02 Master Smeaton, you were seen entering the Queen's chambers on the 11th of March, alone.
27:10 Matt Forde? Smeaton looks back at him with desperate eyes. To tune Her Majesty's virginals, my lord. A servant was present.
27:18 Alice Levine? I, er, tuned Her Majesty's virginals, if you know what I mean.
27:21 Matt Forde? Three times.
27:25 Speaker 02 There are reports of whispering, and the Queen touching your hand.
27:30 Matt Forde? The Queen is kind to her musicians, and, um... Cromwell slams his fist on the table.
27:36 Speaker 02 Enough!
27:38 Matt Forde? He removes his cap, runs a hand over his cropped hair. Henry wants to marry Jane Seymour before the year's out, but Cromwell still has no concrete grounds for divorce that will stand up in a court of law. He stares at Smeaton's youthful face. If the rumors aren't true, he'll just have to force the boy to talk. He gestures for two men by the door to step forward. One places a wooden box on the table beside Smeaton, opens it, to reveal several metal implements.
28:13 Matt Forde? Smeaton's eyes dart from the box back to Cromwell, blood draining from his face. Cromwell turns away.
28:21 Matt Forde? He winces at the sound of bone cracking, followed by Smeaton's screams. Oh god! He thumbs Walsey's ring.
28:30 Speaker 02 When did you first lie with the Queen, Mark?
28:34 Matt Forde? Cromwell turns back to see Smeaton's face twisted in pain, but resolute. Never! Cromwell nods to his man to turn the screw again, until Smeaton's screams fade to pitiful howls. I don't like it. But still, he won't give in. Cromwell darkens.
28:53 Speaker 02 Bring the rack.
28:56 Matt Forde? Smeaton's eyes widen with fear. Cromwell watches his henchmen lift the musician's body onto the wooden frame, then gives a nod for them to turn the wheel.
29:07 Speaker 02 When did you first lie with the Queen?
29:10 Matt Forde? As Smeaton's body stretches, his screams echo off the walls. Please, my lord, I beg you!
29:19 Speaker 02 Talk, and I will tell the King of your remorse. He may be merciful.
29:25 Matt Forde? Smeaton squeezes his eyes shut.
29:28 Speaker 02 Tell me when you first lay with the Queen, how she seduced you.
29:32 Matt Forde? He sees Smeaton give the smallest of nods. He feels a surge of relief as he starts blurting out story after story. He knows the musician hardly knows what he's saying, but he doesn't care. By dawn, he will have enough to try the Queen for adultery, and finish her for good.
29:57 Matt Forde? Second of May, fifteen thirty-six. The Royal Stables, Greenwich Palace.
30:04 Matt Forde? Anne pulls on her riding gloves, smiles at the sight of her horse being led to her.
30:10 Matt Forde? Riding has become her only comfort. Don't. I wouldn't. She turns her attention to her ladies in waiting, looking for a companion to ride with her, but frowns as she realises there's not a recognisable face among them. These ladies are all new. Yes, Your Majesty, Lord Cromwell's orders. Cromwell? What right does Cromwell... But before she can object, she sees her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, marching towards her. At first Anne's confused. She's never got along with Norfolk. Why would he come here now? A knot forms in her stomach as she sees who is following him.
30:52 Matt Forde? The Constable of the Tower of London, flanked by half a dozen guards.
31:01 Alice Levine? Do they do any sort of parades or displays in the way that like the red arrows, if they go overhead, you're not worried that you're going to get bombed because you're like, oh, this is for the fates. So is there any good scenario where they could be here?
31:15 Matt Forde? It's the Tower of London Display Team.
31:19 Alice Levine? Come on, everyone. Put your hands together. They're not coming out till you. Make some noise.
31:24 Matt Forde? Uncle, wh-what is the meaning of this? Anne stays fixed on him. Her blood turns to ice as his lips curl into a thin smile. Tut, tut, tut. Anne's mouth goes bone dry. You are to be conducted to the Tower. On what charge? Norfolk takes a step closer, his foul breath hitting her as he spits his words. Your whoredom. Anne shakes her head, unable to comprehend. Norfolk stays on her, almost gleeful. With multiple, multiple men of the court. Norfolk sneers.
32:09 Matt Forde? This amounts to high treason against His Majesty. This is madness. I demand to see the King. Norfolk shakes his head. He has no desire to see you. Before Anne can say more, she feels the rough hands of the guards on her shoulders as they bustle her out to the river where a barge awaits. Anne feels her cheeks burn as she takes in the hordes of people lining the bank.
32:42 Matt Forde? She feels the boat jolt as someone else gets on board. A chill runs through her bones as she takes in the familiar figure sitting down opposite her, fixing her with a vacant stare. Anne's voice drops to a whisper. "You did this?" Cromwell remains silent, and it dawns on Anne how much she's underestimated him. Her only hope of justice is to show those who will judge her how ridiculous these charges are, and she will waste no time in doing just that.
33:25 Matt Forde? 5th of May 1536, Hampton Court Palace. Cromwell tucks his legal papers under his arm as he enters the palace. Henry is keen to hear details of the case he's building, and with Anne finally locked up in the tower, Cromwell feels like he's got good news to share. He pushes open the doors of the privy chamber to find Henry red-faced with fury.
33:50 Speaker 05 "I received this by messenger. It is from the Queen."
33:54 Matt Forde? Cromwell feels himself stiffened, as Henry holds up a letter from Anne.
34:00 Speaker 05 "She swears on her immortal soul she has done nothing wrong. The Archbishop even came to me earlier saying the same. If he believes this, what's to stop the Court agreeing?"
34:11 Speaker 02 "With respect, Your Majesty, the Archbishop knows nothing of the goings-on of the Queen's Court."
34:18 Speaker 05 "But he doubts the charges, and I am starting to doubt them myself. Not one of the noblemen you accuse has confessed."
34:27 Alice Levine? I mean, double standards. He said "find some evidence", nudge, nudge, wink, wink, even if it doesn't exist, and now he's deciding that they need to be legit confessions. Which one do you want?
34:38 Matt Forde? Henry takes a step closer, his eyes never leaving Cromwell's.
34:42 Speaker 05 "You assured me this case was open and shut, that there was no room for question or doubt."
34:48 Alice Levine? Yes, because you said you'd kill me if it wasn't.
34:51 Speaker 02 "Mark Smeaton has admitted to carnal relations. His testimony alone..."
34:57 Matt Forde? Henry bangs the desk, shocking Cromwell into silence.
35:01 Speaker 05 Was obtained by torture, and there is nothing to stop him recanting. Your whole case rests solely on the confession of a lowly squire. Perhaps your own humble beginnings cloud your judgment.
35:14 Matt Forde? Cromwell feels himself shrink, as Henry limps closer.
35:18 Speaker 05 The court is awash with rumour that some boy who fiddles with flutes can satisfy my wife more than I, the king, can.
35:26 Matt Forde? Cromwell swallows, as Henry thrusts his broad face inches from his own.
35:31 Speaker 05 I will not have my reputation smeared for mere suspicions and a single dubious confession. You must produce more.
35:40 Matt Forde? Before Cromwell can protest.
35:42 Speaker 05 If you are not up to the task, I shall reconsider the future of your service.
35:51 Matt Forde? Two hours later, Cromwell frantically searches through his papers, desperate to uncover something, anything, from weeks of reports that would give him what he needs: watertight evidence against the Queen. He stops at a letter written by Anne's sister-in-law, Lady Rochford. It's filled with petty complaints about her husband's neglect, and his closeness to his sister Anne. He's about to dismiss it, when he realises Lady Rochford is not the first person at court to bring this sibling closeness to Cromwell's attention. Now, as Cromwell re-reads Lady Rochford's missive, a new idea forms. His heartbeat quickens.
36:34 Matt Forde? He knows it's audacious, that it won't just tarnish Anne but her entire family. But if he can pull it off, he can preserve the king's ego and his own position, while destroying Anne for good.
36:52 Matt Forde? Ten days later, fifteenth of May, fifteen thirty-six, the Tower of London. Anne's breath catches as she watches the judges file in. Twenty-six peers of the realm, her father among them.
37:05 Alice Levine? What? No, I didn't realise that.
37:08 Matt Forde? Conflict of interest?
37:09 Alice Levine? Sorry, so her dad is one of the peers and her uncle arrested her?
37:13 Matt Forde? Families, eh?
37:17 Matt Forde? Two thousand spectators fill the galleries.
37:20 Alice Levine? Give her a juice, she can pack out an arena. That's a Palladium right there.
37:23 Matt Forde? Yeah, you'd want to do more than one night, wouldn't you? Play the Tower of London, smash it. Fawkes said it was a tough gig, but very easy when I was there, I don't know.
37:33 Speaker 02 Praise silence for the Duke of Norfolk!
37:38 Matt Forde? Anne bristles as her uncle takes his place at the centre of the hall.
37:42 Speaker 02 Anne Berlin, styled Queen of England, you stand charged with high treason against His Majesty, King Henry VIII.
37:52 Matt Forde? Anne darkens as Cromwell rises from the bench.
37:55 Speaker 02 My lords, the prisoner stands accused of adultery with Henry Norris, Francis Weston, William Brierton, and Mark Smeaton.
38:07 Matt Forde? Anne's chest tightens, but she knows she can only win here if she keeps her composure.
38:13 Speaker 02 On the third of February last, at Westminster, the prisoner did entice Henry Norris, groom of the King's stool, to her chamber at an unseemly hour, where she then seduced him.
38:26 Matt Forde? She bites her lip, digs her nails into her palms as Cromwell lists the additional three men she supposedly seduced. She reminds herself that Cromwell has not a shred of evidence, only a forced confession from Smeaton.
38:42 Speaker 02 But of course, the most heinous of all her offences occurred on a regular basis, with the man the Queen hoped we would least expect.
38:53 Alice Levine? Me!
38:57 Alice Levine? Whoa, plot twist!
38:59 Speaker 02 And I love her.
39:00 Alice Levine? I trust the king will take mercy.
39:02 Speaker 02 Oh, come on. Everyone else is at it. Can't Cromwell get a piece of the action? I have needs. I'm actually a very tender lover, despite my voice.
39:15 Matt Forde? Anne freezes as the room falls pin-drop silent. She scans the crowd in confusion, tries to read Cromwell's expression.
39:24 Speaker 02 For Lady Anne regularly did receive her own natural brother, George Berlin, into her bedchamber for hours beyond what natural affection for siblings may warrant.
39:37 Matt Forde? Jezebel! Jezebel! Ho, ho! What? No! That is a lie, a wicked, monstrous lie! Cromwell continues.
39:49 Speaker 02 On the contrary, Your Majesty, the court will now hear testimony from your brother's wife, Lady Rochester.
39:58 Matt Forde? Anne feels the ground disappear beneath her as Lady Rochester takes the stand. The Queen would meet her brother at all hours, always alone.
40:10 Matt Forde? Then once, entering the room unexpectedly, I caught them kissing, as no brother and sister should.
40:18 Matt Forde? Tears fill Anne's eyes. Lady Rochester is condemning her own husband to death. Anne's blood runs cold as Lady Rochester finally turns her way, her face hardening. There is more. I heard the Queen speak treasonous words to Henry Norris. She told him that if anything happened to the king, he may have her.
40:42 Speaker 02 The king, oh! Jezebel! Oh!
40:46 Matt Forde? Anne sways on her feet. My lords, I beg to speak in my own defense.
40:54 Matt Forde? Anne eyes Norfolk, pleads with him. "The prisoner has a right to speak." Anne sees a shadow cross Cromwell's face, but she knows she has to make the next few minutes count, because the charges levelled against her now are so egregious. If she's found guilty, she won't be facing banishment to a nunnery, she'll be facing death. The room falls silent as Anne steps forward and steadies her voice.
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42:28 Matt Forde? Moments later, the King's Hall, Tower of London. Cromwell's jaw tightens as Anne begins. He intended Lady Rochester's testimony to be the final nail in this case, but right now, Anne's never looked more dignified, more regal.
42:48 Matt Forde? I do not say I have always shown the king the reverence I should. Cromwell feels a creeping anxiety, as Anne lets the words hang in the air before going on. But of the charges levelled against me today, I am innocent. She turns to the jury, stares at them. The dates on which I am accused of these acts are impossible. On the 3rd of February, when I supposedly entertained Master Norris, I was recovering from childbirth and with my ladies at all times. Cromwell inwardly curses, as the jury member's eyes fill with doubt. No dates were given for the many times I supposedly lay with Master Smeaton. Why not? Did the torture he endured cloud his memory?
43:35 Matt Forde? Cromwell forces calm into his voice.
43:38 Speaker 02 The Queen speaks eloquently, but let us recall the testimony regarding her conversation with Henry Norris, the king's own groom of the stool.
43:48 Matt Forde? He looks down at his notes, at the one piece of evidence he knows to be true.
43:54 Speaker 02 On the last day of April, Anne said to Norris, "You look for dead men's shoes. If aught came to the king but good, you would look to have me."
44:07 Matt Forde? Cromwell watches Anne's face pale.
44:10 Speaker 02 What meaning could these words have, but that she contemplated the king's death and her remarriage? What is this but treason?
44:22 Matt Forde? The hall falls silent. It was idle talk, spoken only in jest.
44:28 Speaker 02 Idle talk? About the death of God's anointed king? I think not, my lords. These words were not spoken in jest.
44:39 Matt Forde? He hesitates for effect, before gravely adding,
44:43 Speaker 02 "They were orders."
44:45 Matt Forde? He returns to his seat, praying he has done enough.
44:53 Matt Forde? Half an hour later, in his private chamber, he's interrupted by a knock at the door. His secretary enters.
45:02 Speaker 02 My lord, they have reached a verdict.
45:05 Matt Forde? Cromwell crosses himself before returning to his seat to hear Norfolk speak. Anne Berlin, Queen of England, this court finds you guilty of high treason through adultery, incest, and conspiracy against the king's life.
45:24 Alice Levine? And lest we forget, her dad is on the jury.
45:28 Matt Forde? Cromwell exhales with relief. He watches Anne closely. She stands impossibly still, as if turned to stone. You are sentenced to be burned or beheaded at the king's pleasure.
45:44 Alice Levine? Sometimes we hear these things, and we've made a joke about divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived, which you learn in primary school. But this is so gruesome.
45:53 Matt Forde? Imagine how you're feeling at that point. You've been wrongly convicted, and now you know that you'll either be burned alive or have your head chopped off. Personally, I'd go for beheaded. Have I had any say in the matter?
46:04 Alice Levine? 100%.
46:05 Matt Forde? For you. For me, I would. I would ask for a retrial. Cromwell waits for Anne's response. I am prepared to die, but I am sorry innocent men should suffer death on my account. A cannon sounds to signal to the king that Anne's fate is sealed. As she is led away, she meets Cromwell's eye, and he feels a stab of regret, but only briefly. Now he must ensure her execution is swift, because Henry is notoriously fickle. Cromwell can't afford him the time to change his mind and direct his fury elsewhere.
46:49 Matt Forde? Nineteenth of May, fifteen thirty-six, Tower of London.
46:54 Matt Forde? Anne stands at the window of her chamber, watching the morning light spill across the scaffold on Tower Green, the site of her pending execution. She spins round as the constable of the Tower enters.
47:07 Speaker 02 Madam, you are to be executed within the hour.
47:10 Matt Forde? The room seems to tilt. Anne steadies herself against the stone wall. She forces herself to sound pragmatic, detached.
47:19 Speaker 05 I heard the executioner is very good.
47:22 Alice Levine? Stop!
47:24 Matt Forde? Her hands instinctively move to her throat.
47:27 Speaker 05 And I have a little neck.
47:29 Alice Levine? There's putting a positive spin on it, and then there's just ridiculous.
47:32 Matt Forde? Do you know what? And I didn't want to bring this up, but when I got diagnosed with cancer...
47:37 Alice Levine? Oh god, here we go.
47:39 Matt Forde? This again?
47:41 Matt Forde? There is a moment where you're not sure how long you've got. The only thing that made me upset was that I was going to miss my wife, and I felt that was deeply, deeply upsetting. But apart from that, you do feel a sort of sense of peace about it. You think, okay, well, I've had a good go. So I can sort of, and I know she's going in a very different way here, but there's a part of you that does come to terms with it quite quick.
48:03 Alice Levine? That's a really moving and kind of profound existential thought. You did tell me when you were in hospital that the thing that you were going to miss was British scandal, though, so I feel slightly betrayed.
48:12 Matt Forde? Look, depending on who I'm talking to... She lets out a short, high-pitched laugh that surprises even her. Then she turns to her ladies in waiting, practical thoughts overwhelming her.
48:25 Speaker 05 I will wear a modest gown. I must come to death as I was born, simply.
48:34 Matt Forde? Less than an hour later, Anne walks towards the green. Her composure wavers as she takes in the vast crowd. This was meant to be a private execution, witnessed only by a select few. But for some reason, the gates stand open, and commoners pour in.
48:52 Matt Forde? She clenches her hands as she reaches the scaffold steps. Her legs begin to tremble. She's never felt so scared, so alone. But she's determined to face this with courage and dignity. She forces herself to ascend, then nods to the constable, who calls for silence.
49:16 Speaker 05 Good Christian people, by law I am judged to die, and therefore I will speak nothing against it.
49:24 Matt Forde? Anne thinks of her daughter Elizabeth, not yet three years old. She's already been declared a bastard and will have no mother to protect her. She must ensure her final words placate Henry, that they soften his heart towards their child.
49:41 Speaker 05 I pray God save the king and send him long to reign over you, for a gentler man nor a more merciful prince was there never.
49:51 Alice Levine? That must be a seriously strong maternal instinct to get you to choke through those words.
49:55 Matt Forde? The nearby priest steps forward, whispers in Anne's ear. Madam, for the salvation of your soul, confess your sins before God. Anne meets the priest's gaze.
50:08 Speaker 05 I die innocent of the crimes for which I stand condemned.
50:12 Matt Forde? Anne kneels on the straw, a strange calm washing over her. The French swordsman approaches. He speaks softly. Madame, forgive me for what I am about to do. She nods, then looks back one last time. One last chance for Henry to change his mind. But there's no messenger, no last-minute reprieve. This is it. And now her thoughts drift to that May Day mask over a decade ago, where the king first looked upon her. For a few bright years, she had everything: power, passion, purpose. Anne faces the silent crowd again.
50:58 Matt Forde? She begins a quiet prayer.
51:01 Speaker 05 To Christ, I commend my soul.
51:05 Matt Forde? She hears the whisper of steel cutting the air. And then? Nothing.
51:22 Matt Forde? On the 30th of May 1536, 11 days after Anne's execution, Henry VIII married Jane Seymour at Whitehall. Within weeks of Anne's death, Thomas Cromwell gained the position of the King's Chief Minister. The failure of Henry's fourth marriage to Anne of Cleves led Henry to order his execution in 1540.
51:45 Matt Forde? Anne's daughter, Elizabeth I, took England's throne in 1558 and went on to rule for 44 years until her death in 1603. Dubbed "The Virgin Queen", she never married and is widely regarded as one of England's finest monarchs. Anne Boleyn's beheading was the first execution of a queen in England's history. Her body was brought to the small chapel that lies within the Tower of London. It remains buried there to this day.
52:27 Speaker 12 Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. This coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches. Your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you. You stepped out for your morning jog, except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits.
53:12 Speaker 12 You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.
53:31 Matt Forde? From Wondry and Samistat Audio, this is the third episode in our series, Anne Boleyn.
53:36 Alice Levine? A quick note about our dialogue: in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.
53:43 Matt Forde? If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Hunting the Falcon: Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn by John Guy and Julia Fox, The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn by Eric Ives. You can also watch The Boleyns: A Scandalous Family on BBC iPlayer, or Anne Boleyn: Arrest, Trial, Execution on MyFive.
54:01 Alice Levine? We love hearing from you with comments and suggestions, so please keep them coming. BritishScandal at wondery.com is where you can send them.
54:08 Matt Forde? British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.
54:10 Alice Levine? And me, Alice Levine.
54:12 Matt Forde? Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniak. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer is Jai Williams. For Samistat, our producer is Redsey Bernard. Our assistant producer is Louise Mason. Our senior producers are Joe Sykes and Dashya Lisitsina. For Wondry, our senior producer is Theodora Leludis, and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondry are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, and Marshall Louie.
54:55 Speaker 13 There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and the Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create. Audible subscribers can listen
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55:55 Speaker 14 Hi, I'm Kenya Barris.
55:56 Speaker 15 And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.
56:03 Speaker 14 We'll sit down with extraordinary guests from the worlds of art, film, literature, comedy, and wellness to hear from their unexpected stories of success.
56:10 Speaker 15 And who do we have this season? Well, we'll talk with Grammy-winning artist Anderson Paak, athlete Rich Roll, portrait artist Amy Sherald, Oscar-winning director Ron Howard, legendary writer David Sedaris, and many more. These conversations are more intimate than last season, wouldn't you say?
56:26 Speaker 14 I would. Listen to season one of The Unusual Suspects wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for a free trial Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts.
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