Unlocking Leadership & Strategy: Perry Atwal, Full-Time Instructor, Sauder School of Business, UBC

Unlock insights into leadership, strategy, and the future of business with Perry Atwal, Full-Time Instructor at the Sauder School of Business, University of British Columbia. In this engaging episode of The Brand Called You, Perry reflects on his journey from the high-stakes world of investment banking at Morgan Stanley to academia and the life-changing lessons he learned along the way. Discover insights into building high-performing teams, mastering strategy formulation and execution, developing negotiation skills, and cultivating collaborative cultures. Perry also explores how business schools can prepare students for a rapidly evolving world shaped by AI and technology. He shares why uniquely human qualities such as curiosity, empathy, creativity, and emotional intelligence will remain essential as technology continues to transform the workplace. Whether you’re an aspiring leader, student, educator, or seasoned executive, this conversation offers powerful takeaways on success, balance, leadership, strategy, and making a meaningful difference.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Welcome to another episode of the brand called you a podcast and podcast show that brings you leadership lessons, knowledge, experience and wisdom from thousands of successful individuals from around the world. I'm your host Ashutosh Gargan. Today I'm delighted to welcome a very senior respected professional from the world of academia from Vancouver, Canada, Mr. Professor Perry Atwal. Perry, welcome to the show.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Thank you very much, Ashutosh.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  Perry is a full-time instructor at the Soder School of Business, University of British Columbia in Canada. Earlier, he was with Investment Banking and Equity Research and with Morgan Stanley.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  So Perry, you began your career in investment banking with Morgan Stanley in London, Hong Kong and New York. What first attracted you to that world? And what did those years teach you about leadership and performance?

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Okay, good question. What attracted me to that area? I think where I grew up, I was born and raised in London. There was an aura around that field around investment banking. If you want to be the best at whatever you are, you want to be an investment banker. This is where all the very smart people go. This is where all the very successful people go. So that is what initially attracted me to the area. Looking back, looking back at it now, in terms of what it taught me, it certainly taught me a lot of great skills, great life skills, certainly in terms of discipline, in terms of work ethic, persistence, just working very long hours, doing what it takes to succeed

• 1:42Speaker 01

  and so on. I think it taught me a lot of that. But I think what it also taught me was that, you know what, there's the same mix of good and bad and whatever spectrum of people, wherever you go, no matter what aura we see around people from a particular area or an industry or a country and so on, we have the same mix. There are some good people, there are some bad people, there are a lot of people in the middle, and there's people all ends of the spectrum. And so that's what it really taught me. I think that's a bit of a surprise. They weren't all geniuses and they weren't all unbelievably brilliant at what they did. There was a good mix. And I think that that's a good analogy for really wherever you're going to go in life.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  That's a great response. After a successful international finance career, you chose academia. What inspired such a dramatic shift? And was there a defining moment that made the decision obvious?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that maybe it was not a one moment, but certainly a series of moments that led up to it. I think the biggest reason that I changed careers completely. And looking back, I can, you know, I can say quite comfortably as to how it all fits in. The in investment banking, you would sometimes work all day on trying to fix a problem. And you couldn't fix it. And so on the way home, you would think to yourself, why did I even go in? What was the purpose of today? You know, if I think of it positively, maybe though I thought of a hundred ways how not to do it. But there was a sense of what are you doing? What difference are you

• 3:20Speaker 01

  actually making? What I find in academia, which and specifically teaching is that every day on the way home, you feel that you've made a difference. If you've just seen one person, you know, nod their head, you've seen the light bulb go off in one person, you think, wow, that was, that was worth it. That was good. That was, I made a difference. There was a good purpose to today. So I think that's, that's what really drew me towards academia, the fact that I could make a difference to the next generation, subsequent generations and so on. And I just felt that there was a much deeper calling for me. I felt in investment banking, I was very much a cog in

• 4:00Speaker 01

  a wheel. And if you remove that cog, there were many, many other people who wanted to be that cog. And so it, you know, what are you really doing? What difference are you making? What's your purpose? I find that a lot clearer within academia.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Well said. If you compared the Perry Atwal who walked into Morgan Stanley, with the Perry Atwal who teaches leadership today, what beliefs have changed the most?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Okay, I would say, I think my beliefs towards what success means, you know, what is success? I would say when I walked into Morgan Stanley many years ago, to me, success was all about being successful at work, completing projects, getting promoted, earning more money, you know, doing things like that. That to me was success. And that's how I looked at success. And I thought, if I get all those things, then everything else will be okay. You know, the rest of life will look after itself. What I've realized is that the rest of life doesn't look after itself. And you have to actively look after it. You have to think about your health, your relationships,

• 5:09Speaker 01

  your balance within life and so on. What else are you doing? And I think I take a much more holistic view now, I think in terms of what success actually means. I think it's, it's not easy, but it's relatively easy to be very successful in one area of life. If that's all you do, if all I do is spend all day, every day at work, and I neglect everything else, I think I can be pretty good at it. But the difficult part is getting that balance and being successful in all parts of your life. So I think that's one part. I think the other part is also, which is related to this, instead of thinking about getting results, I think much more now about

• 5:49Speaker 01

  just enjoying the journey. What I found was that before, it was a case of, you know, when I get to this level, I'll be happy. When I get, when I earn this money, I'll be happy. When I do this, or when I get this house, or I do whatever, then I'll be happy. And there was always this kind of destination. And you think, when you get to the destination, you'll be happy. And now I realize that actually, it's, that's not the purpose. And if that's all you're doing, you're really limiting your happiness. You should really try to look for joy throughout. And so I think just trying to enjoy some of the little moments. I do that a lot more now, given my state in life.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  How wonderful. Perry, you've taught business students, engineers, doctors and executives. How differently do these groups learn? And what have they taught you as a teacher?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Okay, I would say firstly, in terms of what they have taught me is that there are some very universal characteristics between good learners, regarding of your profession, regardless of your profession, your background and what you're interested in, certain things are universal. So I would say, for example, the very best, best students I've seen in any of these fields have a tremendous amount of curiosity, tremendous amount. They're always asking questions, they're always challenging, they're looking for different angles, they're trying to understand through peeling away layers. They have a big curiosity, but they also have on top of that, a large dose

• 7:21Speaker 01

  of humility. Okay, they realize they don't have the arrogance, they don't think they know it all. They know that they only know a fraction, even though they seem to know a lot more than everyone else. So, you know, these things are pretty universal. And that's what it's taught me in that a good student is a good student is a good student. It doesn't matter what area they're in. A good student can learn almost anything. It's almost the ability to learn is what's, is what's key. But in terms of the different, the different types of students, I certainly have seen that engineers are very logical, very logical. They go right to the point. And it is much more, if you want to convince them, if you want to persuade them, if you want to teach them, then it's much

• 8:02Speaker 01

  more about the data, the facts, the analysis and so on. When it comes to, for example, doctors, I think there's a little bit more of a mix, because I think the way we look at medicine is more so is not just science, there's a little bit of art to it as well. And I think when you get to executives, there's a lot more art, there's a lot more art, there's a lot more subjectivity, there's a lot more, you know, depending on the situation. So I think that's the degree of, the degree of the directness that we had, that we see, and the way that you can influence people and teach them is quite different, depending on that balance between art and science.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Well said. And tell me, what qualities distinguish students who become exceptional leaders from those who become successful managers?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think from what I've seen, the people who become very successful leaders, and they understand that it's the people, it's always the people, it's always the people, the work itself will get done, projects will get done, deadlines will get met and so on. Nearly all of your problems come with people, nearly all your problems. And what I, the pattern I see is that when I teach undergraduates, they are not so interested in the people side of things, because they haven't worked much, they don't have the experience. MBAs, they care a lot more about the people. When it gets to executives, that's all they care about. They all, that's all they care about. They know they've got other people or other ways of figuring out all the

• 9:35Speaker 01

  technical side. It's the people's side. That's really difficult. So I think that's one of the biggest sort of misconceptions they have, that the people's side is less important than it really is.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  High performing teams is one of your core teaching areas. What separates truly exceptional teams from groups of talented individuals?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I think when it comes to teams, what's much more important than just having a lots of talented individuals is having a balance, is having a balance in the team. Various skills that are required, and I think if you get that balance, then you can be very effective. I think what makes the biggest difference is that strong personal commitment to each other's growth and success. If you have that very strong commitment, typically you have far more ambitious goals. You have a fuller mutual accountability and you just have a much deeper sense of purpose. And I think that makes a difference. When people feel they're making a difference or their team is making a difference, they're going to be far more invested.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  You also taught both strategy formulation and strategy execution. Why do so many organizations struggle with implementation rather than planning?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I think the the main reason is that there are very, it's a very different skill set that's required to to formulate a strategy as opposed to implementing a strategy. There was a famous study done by Price Waterhouse where they looked at seven hundred executives globally and they found out that only eight percent, only eight percent of company leaders actually had the required skill sets to both formulate and implement a strategy. To formulate, you need to brainstorm, you need to think strategically, you need to think long term. You need to think a little bit outside the box and so on.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Whereas to implement, you need to be much more efficient and on the ball and much more more of a management skill as opposed to having the leadership, the direction which you need when you're formulating the strategy. So I think that's the biggest issue is just the difference in the skills that are required to do them.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  And if you had to simplify a strategy into one sentence for every business leader, how would you define strategy?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Okay, well, one sentence, one sentence is difficult, one sentence is difficult. Well, I would say a good strategy, a good strategy will define what, why you are different or what makes you unique and valuable in your customers' eyes. And it it will form an overall plan to how to get to your goals. And so that's just a sentence, that's a sentence, just to explain it a little bit. And I don't think a a a strategy will answer everyone's questions in an organization. But what it should do is point everyone in that right direction. So it won't answer the questions directly, but it will give you enough guidance so you can answer the questions yourself.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  And to me, then, a good strategy then will articulate that in such a way it's clear for everyone where the where the signposts are, so everyone's pulling in the same direction.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  What a great response. Thank you.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Moving on, Perry, what's the biggest mistakes CEOs make when trying to build collaborative cultures?

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Well, I I think the biggest mistake really is is somewhat stubbornness. I think it's somewhat stubbornness. It's the unwillingness to have that curiosity to to really genuinely want to learn about others. You know, I think that there's a big difference and you notice it very quickly when people are sort of going through the motions when they're they're apparently, you know, learning and and wanting to learn about others as opposed to when they really have a deep desire. And I think when you have that deep desire, it's pretty infectious and you set the tone. And if it's clear that, you know, the CEO or whoever is driving this initiative is not really

• 13:56Speaker 01

  behind it fully or it doesn't seem to be congruent in what they're doing or they're saying, then there's a problem, then there's a problem. I think you have to lead by example. And I think it's it's it's obvious to people. I think it's, you know, just to take it on a more extreme view. You know, it's obvious when someone is being racist as opposed to when they're being genuinely curious. You know, I I think, you know, people can see it when it's when it's happening. And I think in the same way, maybe not as extreme, but it's obvious when someone is is genuinely curious as opposed to someone is going through the motions. So I think that's that that's very important to show your authenticity.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Well said. What strategic lessons have remained timeless despite AI, digital transformation and rapid technological change?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I I think the one thing that has stayed constant is that you just cannot substitute the human element, you know, that all the tools, all the technology, they certainly help us in many ways. But there's certain parts, the human understanding how we think and how we how we feel, our emotions and how they interplay in how business works and and our desires and so on. I think those things are far more difficult, they're far more difficult. I like to think of technology and AI advancements and so on as extra tools. They're extra tools, they're going to help us analyze things a lot quicker. They certainly negate certain kinds of, certain kinds of work. And but I don't think they negate all jobs.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  You know, I think they certainly negate certain roles within jobs, but I think it's just a bit of a shift. And I think what's important here is is for people to understand, well, where is this going? What will AI help me with in the future and what will it not really help me with? Where is it really going to struggle? Where am I, where can I still make a difference with my skills or what skills should I be learning? And given this, so so, for example, what I say to my students is that if you were doing an executive report, whereas previously you may have spent many hours doing the charts and the research and the analysis and so on, you can do all that very quickly. But I still want to see the recommendations and the, you know, from yourself.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  I want that in your own words and so on, and that's something which is much harder to replicate.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Another area of your skills or expertise is negotiation. And the next few questions are on negotiation. Negotiation is often associated with business deals. But where do you think negotiation skills matter the most in everyday leadership?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I think we're always negotiating. I think we're always negotiating. I think we're negotiating constantly with clients and colleagues. You know, everything from where do we go for lunch, what how should we, what time should we meet? And we're negotiating with family and friends. I think we're constantly negotiating with ourselves, you know, on on different areas. So I think that being being skilled at negotiating, knowing some of the basics, understanding how you negotiate and what your go-tos are are really important because you're doing it all the time. And I think if you if you're comfortable in what you're doing and you're successful and it's very important to define what a successful negotiation is to you. But I think if you're comfortable, then it's going to lead, it's going to have other repercussions.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  You're going to feel more confident in what you do. You're going to feel more satisfied and content in that you got the best of what you could have got out of situations. So it has a lot of knock on effects.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  And what in your view is one negotiation technique every professional should master before their next important conversation?

• 17:47Speaker 01

  If I had to just say one, just one piece of advice, what I would say is that is to remember a good negotiation, in fact, a great negotiation is when everyone leaves the table happy. It's when everyone leaves the table happy. Sure, if you get what you want and you get even more than what you want, you will leave happy. But there's a knock on effect. And sure, if you're never going to see the person again in your life, no problem. But otherwise, the relationships are often far more important than just the individual issue that you're negotiating. And so how do you maintain that relationship? You want to make sure that everyone leaves happy and it's a bit more challenging.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  It's much more challenging. It's easy for one person to leave happy, but it's not so easy for everyone to leave happy. So trying to get creative and getting into, I mean, this leads on to a whole bunch of other concepts in terms of how you look to expand the value and claim value and so on. But the starting point is just to start with that win-win mindset, a collaborative mindset as opposed to a competitive mindset.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  Very well said. You know, as you were talking, I was reminded, it's a very old saying in India and I'm sure all over the world as well. Whenever you're in a negotiation, always leave something on the table.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Don't try and take everything away. And that's exactly what you are saying. Thank you.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And and and just slightly going on from that, that the most successful people I know, the people who've made it themselves, the people who didn't inherit it, but they made it themselves. They are the biggest givers. They are the biggest givers. And you know what? As they become more successful, they give away even more. And that's the funny thing, the more they give away, the more they get. Part of that is giving away even when you're negotiating, you still give away a little bit because you leave something on the table. I love your analogy.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I have time for two more questions for you, Perry.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  Artificial intelligence is transforming every profession. How should business schools prepare leaders for a future where technology can outperform humans in many analytical tasks?

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'll say two things. Firstly, just building on something I said earlier. Think about the skills, think about what you can do, which AI can't, which AI can't and try to concentrate on building those skills. But I think the other part to this is is also just don't fight it, don't fight it. It's an inevitable wave and and if it's not AI, it's going to be other technology and so on. What my attitude is that we should embrace these things, we should embrace them. So for example, in my classes, I ask people to do assignments using AI. I I ask them, I say, look, get AI to do the assignment, then critique the AI and critique what AI says. Now, of course, you can use AI again to critique the AI and you can keep on going in circles.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  But the point is, you know, I'm not, I'm not ignoring it, I'm not saying you can't use it. I want you to use it, but I want you to understand the limitations and understand, you know, where it's a very useful tool and where perhaps it's not. So I think it's it's it's pivotal for business schools. I mean, it's absolutely pivotal. You have to embrace it. If you just ignore it, you're going to be in the dark ages very quickly. But I I I think it's it's more and also to to give students that feeling that it's it's not something to be fearful of, but rather it's a great opportunity.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  Amazing. And my last question for you. After teaching thousands of students and executives over the years, what gives you the greatest optimism about the next generation of leaders?

• 21:22Speaker 01

  You know, one of the things that gives me great optimism is the fact that I feel like I'm turning more into my parents. I feel like it. I'm saying more and more things that my parents used to say. And, you know, I find that the generations, the way the generations work, it almost things just keep on repeating themselves. I mean, I'm saying things to my kids that my parents used to say to me. My kids are looking at me just like I used to look at my parents. Oh, my goodness, you guys are so technically illiterate and blah, blah, blah, blah. You don't get it. You don't get the kind of world. So that gives me a little bit of faith, you know, the fact that, you know, generations, they figure things out. Also, the fact that in history has just taught us that when the problems get big enough, we figure them out.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Okay, we figure them out. And I have a firm belief in that. I just think history has taught us that, that whenever there's, we've got to that point. Um, I also believe that despite all the negativity that we see, and I think a lot of it's largely down to media, but not, it's not really the media's fault. It's more reflecting just our, our society, our culture. Um, the fact that we are more attracted to things that we fear, um, you know, or we want to know more about what we got to be careful about rather than what's more positive. Um, I think that's, that's partly, um, that, that's a, a little bit of an issue. But I think we've never been better informed. And I think, like all these things, they're all double, double edged swords.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Um, the fact that people are more informed means that, you know, surely they've got lots more to draw upon. But it's also quite dangerous as well. It's quite dangerous. So everything's a double edged sword. And I think the fact that we can draw upon so much more, I think eventually we will figure out the very best ways. Um, and I think we can also tailor, um, uh, our futures way more. Um, given the fact that we learn so much and that we have so much information at hand and we can do so much very quickly. So, you know, I, I like to think that, you know, in general, there are more positive people than negative. Um, out there, I, I certainly like to think that the, the world reflects more so people's attitudes.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Um, so if you are very positive, then you will see a lot of positive people and, and vice versa. And, and so I think once we work out how to really work on those things, you know, um, getting to deeper purpose and, uh, and just making that difference. I, I, I see a lot of positives going in those directions. We hear a lot about the negatives and there's certainly, certainly a lot of things in the world which are um, uh, causes to question what we think. Um, but in the long term, I really believe that we are going in the right direction. And I think what we're, we're doing, even things, even things such as this podcast right now, I think is helping people. And I, I think that's all we can do.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And on that note, I just want to say, what a fascinating conversation this one has been with you, Perry. Thank you for talking to me about your own amazing journey. We covered some very interesting thoughts from you on leadership, on culture and on negotiation. And I just loved the amazing positivity that you brought in every single response that, uh, that I asked you about. Thank you for speaking to me and all the very best to you.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  You're very welcome, Ash. It's been entirely my pleasure. Thank you.

• 24:37Speaker 00

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• 24:50Speaker 00

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