Raising Arizona with John Hodgman

Jesus Cock, that’s a hot new episode! John Hodgman returns to Blank Check to chat about Raising Arizona, the Coen’s swerve of a follow-up to Blood Simple that trades in the hallmarks of noir for the hallmarks of Looney Tunes. We’re talking about Nic Cage’s sad eyes, Holly Hunter’s year of iconic crying performances, rest stop public pomade, and people we are glad are dead. It’s a fun time. And yes, there’s yodelling. Sign up for Check Book https://blankcheckpod.substack.com/welcome, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. http://www.patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter https://x.com/blankcheckpod?lang=en, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/blankcheckpod/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@blankcheckpod?xmt=AQGzctAh4mbWTwYzCV1pzNT6AMV9o99EOfymi8TLR5mTde0 and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/blankcheckpodcast/! Buy some real nerdy merch https://kinshipgoods.com/blankcheck Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/s/gpcOkQr8Sv or Discord https://discord.gg/Q6YGSR3JrA For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com https://www.blankcheckpod.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 0:03David Sims?

  Yep.

• 0:03Griffin Newman?

  We did a live show.

• 0:04David Sims?

  Yeah, remember?

• 0:05Griffin Newman?

  Ranking Scorsese at the Bell House in Brooklyn. We did the definitive power ranking of Martin Scorsese things.

• 0:12David Sims?

  Uh, it was so fun. Uh, it was very silly.

• 0:15Griffin Newman?

  Ben and Marie were with us and they're with us right now.

• 0:18David Sims?

  Yeah, hey.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  Hey, everyone, or should I say, oh?

• 0:20David Sims?

  Oh.

• 0:22Griffin Newman?

  And thanks to our friends at Dynasty Typewriter. It was livestreamed for the first time ever. But also, the replay is still up there, but only until October 30th.

• 0:31David Sims?

  So just a few more days.

• 0:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 0:33David Sims?

  You can get it at dynasty.tv.

• 0:36Griffin Newman?

  Dynasty.tv.

• 0:37David Sims?

  It's $20. We had a blast and the Spreadmaster really got to work.

• 0:43Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah. I was moving things around. Laptop was on.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  I don't know if I'd have seen you that happy.

• 0:48Griffin Newman?

  You were thrilled. You were like a pick and share.

• 0:50David Sims?

  I was locked in.

• 0:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, very locked in and you were funny.

• 0:53David Sims?

  Thank you. You were funny. You were also funny.

• 0:56Griffin Newman?

  Oh, thank you.

• 0:57David Sims?

  And if you want to see like, you know, Griffin's shine box on camera, it's the only way to see it.

• 1:02Griffin Newman?

  You might see me shine Marie's shoes.

• 1:04David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you're into that sort of content.

• 1:07Griffin Newman?

  If that gets you off.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10David Sims?

  So once again, that's at dynasty.tv.

• 1:39David Sims?

  You're not that bad.

• 1:40Griffin Newman?

  If I'm as bad as you, what good are we? What good are we to each other? You and me is just a fool's podcast.

• 1:47David Sims?

  So you like that because paradise and podcasts are so.

• 1:50Griffin Newman?

  I do. I was doing the exercise last night. I was like, I don't even know if I've ever attempted it despite the fact that we've covered her so much and she is one of my favorite actors.

• 1:58David Sims?

  We've definitely attempted a Holly Hunter, haven't we?

• 2:00Griffin Newman?

  Last night, I was like, I might have cracked it. And right as I started to speak, I was like, I think I've lost whatever, whatever Rubicon I created to get there. Whatever I had figured out my map, the map has been burned.

• 2:15David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:15Griffin Newman?

  I don't know who that just became.

• 2:17David Sims?

  It's, look, there's only one Holly Hunter.

• 2:19Griffin Newman?

  There's, this is why, look, this is her ultimate value.

• 2:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:23Griffin Newman?

  There is, I don't think there is a Holly Hunter sound alike alive. And I've certainly seen like skilled.

• 2:29David Sims?

  If you could do an incredible Holly Hunter. I mean, you know what? I just said there's only one.

• 2:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:34David Sims?

  But I would like this to be a life path for you.

• 2:36Griffin Newman?

  To get there?

• 2:37David Sims?

  To get there.

• 2:38Griffin Newman?

  To get there.

• 2:38David Sims?

  To get, like, I want people going, have you heard Griffin Newman's Holly Hunter?

• 2:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:42David Sims?

  They've got more than they can handle.

• 2:44Griffin Newman?

  I even feel like I've, I've seen good, like, sketch comedians, comedians.

• 2:49David Sims?

  Oh.

• 2:49Griffin Newman?

  Attempt it.

• 2:50David Sims?

  Wait.

• 2:51Griffin Newman?

  And the best I've ever heard it is like, you're 60% of the way there.

• 2:54David Sims?

  Women in comedy?

• 2:55Speaker 04

  Funny women?

• 2:55Griffin Newman?

  Women are funny.

• 2:57David Sims?

  Oh.

• 2:57Griffin Newman?

  And I want Vanity Fair to listen up as I announce this. Women are funny!

• 3:05David Sims?

  World's greatest Holly Hunter impersonator shocks world.

• 3:10Griffin Newman?

  Front page news.

• 3:11David Sims?

  Having stolen a job from a woman.

• 3:13Griffin Newman?

  Trump steps down from office.

• 3:16David Sims?

  It's time for women who are funny to have a turn, he says.

• 3:20Griffin Newman?

  I know when I'm not wanted anymore. Holly Hunter impressionist, elected grand chairwoman of universe?

• 3:28David Sims?

  Holly Hunter.

• 3:29Speaker 04

  Holly Hunter is the best.

• 3:31David Sims?

  Has only made one movie.

• 3:33Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 3:34David Sims?

  No, she's made more. She's only made one movie.

• 3:36Griffin Newman?

  David, I was doing this math recently as well.

• 3:38David Sims?

  Before this year, 2025.

• 3:41Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:42David Sims?

  Uh, her last credited film was Incredibles 2, in which she rocked the house.

• 3:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:47David Sims?

  As a last girl slash Helen Parr.

• 3:48Griffin Newman?

  So are Incredibles 2 and Big Sick the same year as Big Sick is the year before?

• 3:52David Sims?

  2017.

• 3:52Griffin Newman?

  Two years.

• 3:53David Sims?

  In which she is also in, uh, Song to Song and.

• 3:56Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:56David Sims?

  Something called Breakable You, which I'm not too familiar with.

• 4:00Griffin Newman?

  That's not true. It doesn't exist. But, but yes, Big Sick, big Oscar snub, and seen as sort of like, is this the start of the next era of Holly Hunter?

• 4:07David Sims?

  Kind of like, dang.

• 4:08Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 4:08David Sims?

  Put Holly Hunter in your movie, by the way.

• 4:10Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely.

• 4:11David Sims?

  And then in 2018, she's Incredibles 2, which is a voice role, but obviously she is very good.

• 4:15Griffin Newman?

  That movie makes the men step aside and let the women take the lead.

• 4:21Griffin Newman?

  But she is undeniably the lead of that movie.

• 4:23David Sims?

  She's the main character and she's really, she's really awesome.

• 4:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 4:25David Sims?

  Uh, now, of course, since then, she has done a ton of TV. She was on Succession.

• 4:29Griffin Newman?

  Great on Succession.

• 4:30David Sims?

  She was, uh, she was, yeah, she was, she was great on Succession.

• 4:33Speaker 04

  She was great on Succession.

• 4:33David Sims?

  She was, uh, in-

• 4:34Griffin Newman?

  I've always had-

• 4:36David Sims?

  Okay. Uh, she was in the, uh-

• 4:38Speaker 04

  Weird Opinion? You ready for it?

• 4:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  She was great in Succession.

• 4:41Griffin Newman?

  I, see, that's interesting you say it, cause I think she was great on Succession.

• 4:45David Sims?

  She was in the-

• 4:46Speaker 04

  Really?

• 4:46David Sims?

  The, the, the one, the Showtime show where I think Brendan Gleeson was Donald Trump? You know, there were so many, like-

• 4:51Speaker 04

  Uh, the Comey rule.

• 4:53Griffin Newman?

  Who's she play in the Comey rule?

• 4:54David Sims?

  Sally Yates, of course.

• 4:56Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 4:56David Sims?

  The, uh, acting Attorney General.

• 4:58Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 4:58David Sims?

  Uh, she was in that show, Mr. Mayor, which was the Ted Danson-

• 5:01Griffin Newman?

  Right, she was a regular on that for two seasons.

• 5:04David Sims?

  Uh, and, uh, and she's upcoming in the new Star Trek show. So she's been do- it's not like Holly Hunter, like, vanished from the-

• 5:11Speaker 04

  Which is the new Star Trek?

• 5:12David Sims?

  Uh, the Starfleet Academy show with her and Giamatti.

• 5:15Griffin Newman?

  Our, our friend-

• 5:16David Sims?

  Our culture's so mad lips right now.

• 5:18Griffin Newman?

  Our friend Tatiana Maslany, I believe, is on that show as well, got to work with Holly Hunter.

• 5:22David Sims?

  Very exciting. Uh, I'm not, I think Tatiana has like a guest role or something.

• 5:27Griffin Newman?

  Yes, but I, I-

• 5:28David Sims?

  As, as does, I think, um, Giamatti.

• 5:31Griffin Newman?

  Sure, but I believe I got dispatches of got to work with Hunter today.

• 5:35David Sims?

  Yes.

• 5:35Griffin Newman?

  Which was blowing my mind.

• 5:36Speaker 04

  Holly Hunter, uh, a lead, a lead in that show?

• 5:39David Sims?

  But she's the lead. She's the, she's the lead.

• 5:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 04

  Oh, I was just wondering, like, why has she not led a, a prestige television show?

• 5:47Griffin Newman?

  Didn't she do, was it called Saving Grace? She did a TNT show.

• 5:51David Sims?

  But yes.

• 5:52Griffin Newman?

  But that was at a weird point where it was like the closer had gotten really big.

• 5:55David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 5:56Griffin Newman?

  And actual prestige TV was riding, was rising, but the other networks hadn't figured out how to make some things that were actually good.

• 6:03David Sims?

  Three, three seasons of State of Grace.

• 6:06Griffin Newman?

  Which I'm sure was aggressively okay.

• 6:08David Sims?

  My, I think it was, okay, whatever.

• 6:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 6:11David Sims?

  My question was, what is the film that she made this year that broke the streak of Holly Hunter not being in movies? I can tell you that the-

• 6:20Griffin Newman?

  Has it come out already, or is it-

• 6:21David Sims?

  It's come out.

• 6:22Griffin Newman?

  It's come out.

• 6:23David Sims?

  I can tell you that the character she played was named Madeline Vance.

• 6:27Griffin Newman?

  Fuck, why do I know that name?

• 6:29Speaker 04

  Madeline-

• 6:30David Sims?

  You don't.

• 6:30Griffin Newman?

  I don't?

• 6:31David Sims?

  No.

• 6:32Griffin Newman?

  Did, was this a straight to streaming movie?

• 6:33David Sims?

  It was.

• 6:34Speaker 04

  STS?

• 6:34David Sims?

  I mean, I believe it got, uh, uh, some sort of-

• 6:37Griffin Newman?

  Prefectory?

• 6:38David Sims?

  Prefectory, uh, theatrical showing.

• 6:40Griffin Newman?

  Tell me the streaming provider, please.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  Netflix. Well, that could be anything.

• 6:45Griffin Newman?

  Madeline Vance, Netflix.

• 6:49Griffin Newman?

  Give me the title. I don't know.

• 6:51David Sims?

  Well, I can tell you that the film's budget was $320 million. So that seems like the kind of movie.

• 6:55Griffin Newman?

  She's a voice in the Electric State?

• 6:56David Sims?

  No, no. Flesh and blood.

• 6:58Griffin Newman?

  Is she like a senator or some shit?

• 6:59David Sims?

  I don't know. You think I watched-

• 7:01Speaker 04

  She was a senator in, uh, Dr. Granny's His Team.

• 7:04David Sims?

  You think I, a paid film critic-

• 7:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:06David Sims?

  Who's supposed to watch movies-

• 7:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:08David Sims?

  Has seen one second of The Electric State?

• 7:12Griffin Newman?

  Well, you have ridden the nutmobile, right?

• 7:14David Sims?

  What is that?

• 7:15Griffin Newman?

  Mr. Peanut in the film, voiced by Woody Harrelson, rides around in what he calls the nutmobile.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 7:20Griffin Newman?

  Which is a giant peanut with wheels, but also is what a lot of people call their private parts.

• 7:26David Sims?

  A lot of people is maybe not true.

• 7:28Griffin Newman?

  Take a ride in the nutmobile?

• 7:29David Sims?

  My nutmobile is very stationary. The wheels are off.

• 7:32Griffin Newman?

  I just can't-

• 7:33David Sims?

  It's up on blocks in the yard.

• 7:34Griffin Newman?

  Uh, there's, Five Below is just, uh, lousy with, with mountains of remote control nutmobiles that I keep getting texted, people being like, "Have you seen this shit?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I was on this beat months ago."

• 7:47David Sims?

  Yeah, you were an early adopter of the nutmobile. Just insane that Holly Hunter returned to-

• 7:51Griffin Newman?

  What is the movie?

• 7:51David Sims?

  It's called The Electric State.

• 7:53Griffin Newman?

  It's the Russo Brothers.

• 7:54Speaker 04

  Oh, that's the one?

• 7:54Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 7:54David Sims?

  Yes, it was, uh-

• 7:55Griffin Newman?

  With the nutmobile. Of the nutmobile.

• 7:57David Sims?

  Yeah. It was a big blockbuster starring Chris Pratt and, uh, Millie Bobby Brown, right? Directed by the Russo Brothers.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  I ventured to say no blocks were actually busted.

• 8:06David Sims?

  Yeah, the blocks remained undisturbed. There's a big pile of blocks.

• 8:11Griffin Newman?

  Not even a chip.

• 8:11Speaker 04

  No offense to anyone who worked in the film, I would like to be, I would like to work again.

• 8:15David Sims?

  I'm not a chip off the old block. A smidge of offense at some of the people who works on that film.

• 8:19Speaker 04

  Look, having not seen it, I'm not a champion.

• 8:22David Sims?

  In fact, I'm gonna put a little tiny bit of offense.

• 8:24Griffin Newman?

  And in fact, I would say this. If anyone involved with that movie, at the upper levels, felt good about what they did, they would not be returning to Marvel as quickly. Loudly as they are.

• 8:35David Sims?

  Yeah, I see what you mean.

• 8:36Griffin Newman?

  You know?

• 8:36David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 8:37Griffin Newman?

  Um, Holly Hunter, yes, I, I have actually, uh, recently-

• 8:42Griffin Newman?

  For whatever reason, gone on a couple similar rabbit holes of especially actresses over the age of 40. Where I'm like, huh, quietly, that person has not been in a movie in eight years. There are a lot of people who it feels like there is a pre pandemic cutoff and I go like, oh, fucked, did Hollywood kick them to the curb? And you're like, no, just streaming bullshit.

• 9:03David Sims?

  It's right. It's the rise of a certain kind of television where it's like, they're not, not working, they're working. It's just they've been diverted to this sort of stuff.

• 9:10Griffin Newman?

  But like, I think Catherine Zeta Jones has not been in a movie since Red Two, if I am not mistaken, and yet she has done 10 TV shows that don't exist, including one for Facebook Watch. She was the lead actress.

• 9:24David Sims?

  I don't know what you're talking about.

• 9:25Griffin Newman?

  Cause it's not real.

• 9:27David Sims?

  Facebook Watch is the streaming.

• 9:29Griffin Newman?

  Correct.

• 9:29David Sims?

  I thought the name of the show was Facebook Watch.

• 9:31Griffin Newman?

  That was the platform.

• 9:33David Sims?

  Okay. The last film that she made, uh, was, well, actually it was, uh, the, uh, probably not released in America, Dad's Army in 2016.

• 9:41Griffin Newman?

  Okay. Uh, when is Red Two?

• 9:43David Sims?

  Red Two is 2013.

• 9:45Griffin Newman?

  Oof.

• 9:46David Sims?

  And that is the second most recent movie she's made. She has done, of course, uh, played Olivia De Havilland in Feud. Uh, she played the cocaine godmother in some, uh, TV movie.

• 9:58Griffin Newman?

  Of, was it not called Cocaine Godmother?

• 10:01David Sims?

  Yeah. Uh, she was in something called Prodigal. Is that part of the Cocaine Bear Universe? Yeah.

• 10:06Griffin Newman?

  Uh, that was a Fox show that ran for two seasons. She, of course, was on the, uh, National Treasure Disney Plus show, tying back into, why is Disney going out of their way to make sure they never make a National Treasure Three? Why are they not fucking begging Nicolas Cage on his hands and kneels?

• 10:24David Sims?

  Oh, Nicolas Cage is in this movie too, by the way. Right, he is in the film. And, uh, of course, uh, we have to acknowledge she played Morticia Adams in Wednesday, but just in two episodes.

• 10:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 10:33David Sims?

  Because Wednesday's mostly at camp in that show or something?

• 10:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes. We, right before this episode started. We're talking, giving spicy Star Wars takes that we never want to say on mic.

• 10:42Speaker 04

  Never will say on mic.

• 10:43Griffin Newman?

  Star Wars on the internet is a, uh, writing your own.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  It's a wonderful, it's a wonderful trip to, uh, feedback.

• 10:49Griffin Newman?

  But it was, it was looping all the way back around to, and on-ramp into discussion of this movie. And I said, we need to start recording right now so we can take this energy and talk about it.

• 10:59Speaker 04

  I lost it, sorry.

• 11:00Griffin Newman?

  You refer to it as perhaps your favorite line in all of movies, certainly your favorite line in this movie.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  David was talking about Yoda and he had some extremely hot takes on Yoda that I will not repeat.

• 11:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Legendary stick, man.

• 11:13Speaker 04

  Speak, yeah.

• 11:15Griffin Newman?

  Walking stick.

• 11:16Speaker 04

  Speaking of, yeah, it's funny you mention Yoda because it brings us around to this movie that we're going to talk about. And one of my very favorite lines in movies.

• 11:26Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  What was he wearing? Jammies? What was on his jammies? I don't know. Yoda's and shit.

• 11:32Griffin Newman?

  Yoda's and shit.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  Yoda's and shit. They had Yoda's and shit on him. Shot through me like force lightning.

• 11:41Griffin Newman?

  I have talked many times in this podcast about how one of my favorite lines in the history of movies is in Superbad, where the two cops, uh, Rogan and Hader are doing, uh, Star Wars impressions to amuse McLovin in the backseat. And they're clearly not getting a big enough response and Hader turns around and goes, you know, uh, Yoda? Yoda from Attack of the Clones?

• 12:03Speaker 04

  It's a good joke.

• 12:03Griffin Newman?

  And the specificity of.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  From Attack of the Clones.

• 12:06Griffin Newman?

  Not from Star Wars.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  No. Attack of the Clones.

• 12:09Griffin Newman?

  Yoda from Attack of the Clones gets me and it does, I had a similar jolt to this line that I've had every time I've watched this movie, but it hit hard fresh again last night and I was just like, is any kind of joke that sort of throws Yoda off the hump gonna get me? It's not like if there's a Yoda impression in a movie or someone does the backwards talk.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:32Griffin Newman?

  Or they go like, your nutsack looks like Yoda, anything like that, I'm immediately rolling in the aisles.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  Your nutmobile looks like.

• 12:38Griffin Newman?

  Thank you.

• 12:39Speaker 04

  Your Yoda mobile, yeah.

• 12:40Griffin Newman?

  But there's some, there's a commonality between those two jokes, right? Yoda's and shit.

• 12:46Speaker 04

  It's just, I mean, look.

• 12:48David Sims?

  It's a perfect joke because it's like, yes, that's where Yoda has made it that far in the pop culture to sort of be in his brain.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:57David Sims?

  But like, not like, you know, Yoda, it's almost like how like, parents would call all video games Nintendo, you know what I mean?

• 13:05Griffin Newman?

  David, that's, thank you. That's what the two jokes have in common. They're both people who know what Yoda is.

• 13:11David Sims?

  But all the kind of.

• 13:12Griffin Newman?

  Their understanding of what Yoda is, is a little off.

• 13:16Speaker 04

  Look.

• 13:17Griffin Newman?

  They assume that other people are on the exact same level as them.

• 13:20David Sims?

  I think my favorite line in Raising Arizona is, you know, these blow up in funny shapes, all. She's like, no, unless round is funny.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  Funny.

• 13:29Griffin Newman?

  Really good.

• 13:29Speaker 04

  But let me say this. Let me take you on a trip back through time.

• 13:32Griffin Newman?

  Please.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Hey, what is the name of this podcast?

• 13:34David Sims?

  Yeah, can we introduce the podcast?

• 13:35Griffin Newman?

  It's a blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

• 13:37David Sims?

  I'm David.

• 13:38Griffin Newman?

  It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want, as long as their seed can find purchase. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. That is my favorite line in the movie. We'll talk about that for 15 minutes.

• 13:55David Sims?

  There are a lot of lines.

• 13:56Griffin Newman?

  Uh, this is a mini-series on the films of Joel and Ethan Cohen, both together and separately. Uh, it is called Pod Country for Old Cast.

• 14:06David Sims?

  Probably.

• 14:06Griffin Newman?

  Probably.

• 14:07David Sims?

  Probably.

• 14:08Griffin Newman?

  And today we're talking about Raising Arizona, undeniably their guarantor. And I found an interview quote from them in 2000, before Oprah there came out, where they said, "That's the last time we made a movie that actually made everyone an amount of money that they felt good about." And it is interesting to think because they've been pretty consistent since that point.

• 14:27David Sims?

  Normally, they would make probably enough that no one's mad at them.

• 14:30Griffin Newman?

  They become, I would say, so minted after a while, that even their less successful films, no one's losing money on them.

• 14:39David Sims?

  Right.

• 14:40Griffin Newman?

  But after this movie, there is a run of like, all of their movies basically barely break even or lose a little bit of money, but everyone's kind of like, "Yeah, but those guys are so good," that they keep giving them small budgets. And they were like, "This was the last time a studio gave us money and the return on investment worked." It's called Raising Arizona.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Raising Arizona. Ask me, uh, ask me if I like this movie.

• 15:01David Sims?

  Who's our guest?

• 15:02Griffin Newman?

  Our guest, gentlemen, John Hodgman of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

• 15:06Speaker 04

  And the brand new podcast on Maximum Fun. What? E Pluribus motto. Janet Varney and I discuss all the mottos, mammals, monsters, and beverages of the states and commonwealths and districts of this country currently known as the United States.

• 15:21Griffin Newman?

  It's a good, it's a good pair. We love Janet Varney. Past and future guest.

• 15:25David Sims?

  Terrific.

• 15:25Speaker 04

  Yes, season two is, uh, is out now.

• 15:28Griffin Newman?

  I shall also list as a credit, of course, Dick Towns, still streaming on Hulu for the time being.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Starring Griffin Newman.

• 15:34David Sims?

  And what about that podcast you did about I Claudius? I'm just gonna start bringing out Hodgman credits.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  There is, there is a whole podcast that I made with Elliot Kalin about the British 1970s historical mini-series, I Claudius.

• 15:47David Sims?

  I comma Claudius.

• 15:48Speaker 04

  And let's call it I Potties.

• 15:49Griffin Newman?

  I hate to list credits that are going to hurt you, that bring up open wounds. But of course, also the author of Medallion Status and Vacation Land, which sadly were never published in any format past hardback.

• 16:01David Sims?

  Yep.

• 16:01Griffin Newman?

  Library editions only.

• 16:03Speaker 04

  I hate to jump, and large, large print, obviously.

• 16:05Griffin Newman?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 16:07Speaker 04

  Uh, I hate to correct you, Griffin, but they're both available in paperback.

• 16:11Griffin Newman?

  If that were true, I would have heard about it by now.

• 16:12Speaker 04

  On a bargain table near you.

• 16:14Griffin Newman?

  I would have heard about it now. I listen to so many podcasts.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  Surely multiple copies in a little free library, waterlogged with rain near you.

• 16:25Griffin Newman?

  John Hodgman, what were you going to say?

• 16:26Speaker 04

  Ask me if I like this movie.

• 16:28Griffin Newman?

  John Hodgman, do you like The Film Raising Arizona?

• 16:30Speaker 04

  I hate it so much.

• 16:33David Sims?

  Would be funny if you didn't like it and we were finding out right now.

• 16:37Speaker 04

  That was, that was all I underlined for the movie.

• 16:39Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  In case people didn't, haven't seen this movie, you should go see it.

• 16:44Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, go see it, go, run out to your local multiplexes.

• 16:47Speaker 04

  Go find a copy.

• 16:49David Sims?

  No, you have to run to find the copy and the camera should kind of catapult after you in this kind of amazing way that you can't believe.

• 16:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 16:55David Sims?

  Right. Um, you wanted to take us back through time.

• 16:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I will take you back through time for a moment. First of all, I just want to take, put a pin in this.

• 17:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 04

  You call this undeniably their Blank Check movie.

• 17:08Griffin Newman?

  No, no, no.

• 17:09Speaker 04

  I call it undeniably their guarantor.

• 17:10David Sims?

  It's their guarantor. It's the movie that gets them.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  Because this is only their second film.

• 17:14David Sims?

  Some creative freedom and more money.

• 17:15Speaker 04

  I think financially.

• 17:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  There is an argument to be made.

• 17:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 04

  Critically.

• 17:20Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  I would say that their guarantor was Blood Simple that allowed them to make this. And after they made this, my memory at the time.

• 17:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  Was that people were like, I don't know about these guys.

• 17:33Griffin Newman?

  Look, I agree with you and their career is kind of weird in how it built. And a lot of what we keep talking about in this series is that they were given time to grow in a way that the industry is not really support anymore.

• 17:43Speaker 04

  Right.

• 17:44Griffin Newman?

  But I think it was the combination of the two of Blood Simple is like heralded as these guys are major. These are careers that are going to be undeniable.

• 17:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 17:53Griffin Newman?

  So we gotta give them space to do something. And they're given the freedom to make.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 17:58Griffin Newman?

  Raising Arizona, which then makes enough of a profit that even if people respond to this film, and I was looking at the reviews at the time, and they are so weird.

• 18:07David Sims?

  Well, it's, it's reviews that I think they would get maybe all the way till Fargo of like some raves, but some people being like all flash, all style, like where's the, you know?

• 18:19Griffin Newman?

  The thing that surprised me in how, how stated it was is, uh, this movie is so mannered. It like snuffs out any possibility of being funny.

• 18:29David Sims?

  Right.

• 18:29Griffin Newman?

  Like rather than being like this style makes the movie funny, but the thing's frivolous. They were sort of saying like, it's so overdone that like there is a, a void of laughter.

• 18:40Speaker 04

  Now, let me say this.

• 18:41Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 18:42Speaker 04

  To those critics.

• 18:44Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  I mean, it's true. They went, they went weird fast after Blood Simple.

• 18:49Griffin Newman?

  And, and basically went, let's do the exact opposite of what everyone loved us doing last time.

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Exactly. And what, and the people who were giving them money.

• 18:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 04

  I wonder if they knew. That they were basically going to try again to make crime wave.

• 19:02Griffin Newman?

  Possibly, possibly. I mean, the great.

• 19:04Speaker 04

  I don't think they did know is my point.

• 19:06Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 19:06Speaker 04

  Like, I think that they didn't understand.

• 19:08Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 19:08Speaker 04

  That there was this element of wackadoo.

• 19:11Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 19:12Speaker 04

  In the Coens that is not apparent in Blood Simple, which I, by the way, watched at 2 a.m. this morning.

• 19:17Griffin Newman?

  Hey.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  In preparation.

• 19:19Griffin Newman?

  Thank you.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  Sure. And, and in honor of my insomnia.

• 19:22Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  But is not apparent in Blood Simple and is wildly apparent in this movie.

• 19:26Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  And then it, it modulates between those two modes throughout their career in a way that I find absolutely compelling. But I will go back, I will say this, to, to critics at the time.

• 19:37Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:39Speaker 04

  I was there.

• 19:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 04

  I lived it.

• 19:42Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  1987.

• 19:43Griffin Newman?

  Do you remember the crowd response going to see this movie in theaters?

• 19:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 19:47Griffin Newman?

  People were into it.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  Very into it now. I saw it at the Harvard Square Theater.

• 19:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 19:52Speaker 04

  I, I'm a coastal elite.

• 19:54Griffin Newman?

  Hey.

• 19:55Speaker 04

  A lot of smarty pantses in the room.

• 19:56Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  Charles Diggs, my high school pal, perhaps the smartiest of pantses.

• 20:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  And I were like, what are we gonna do of an evening?

• 20:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  Let's go see a movie. Went into Brazy, Arizona.

• 20:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 04

  I can, I still get chills thinking about, I had no idea what I was going into.

• 20:14Griffin Newman?

  That, yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 04

  And I will say there.

• 20:17Griffin Newman?

  I wish I could have seen in theaters opening weekend where you're just like.

• 20:20David Sims?

  Really like Nicholas K. Jordan or Holly Hunter or John Goodman, right? Yeah, I feel like this movie doesn't really, yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 04

  It's got none of my.

• 20:27David Sims?

  Really in Forsythe.

• 20:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, well, you know I love Williams Forsythe.

• 20:30Speaker 04

  Well, I know, yeah. You're a big fan of the God is in Dead series.

• 20:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and also Flat Top.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  Forgot about that.

• 20:36Griffin Newman?

  He was Flat Top.

• 20:37Speaker 04

  But like, I'll just, the electricity that I felt.

• 20:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  With that Yoda's in line, Yoda's in shit line.

• 20:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 04

  Was very, very powerful because you talk about on this podcast, movies that don't exist.

• 20:49Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 20:50Speaker 04

  1987, Star Wars did not exist.

• 20:53Griffin Newman?

  We were talking about this, I feel like fairly recently with Gethin.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  A decade after the first Star Wars.

• 20:58David Sims?

  It's the most fallow Star Wars period.

• 21:01Griffin Newman?

  Dead period of Star Wars.

• 21:02David Sims?

  Where people are kinda just like scraping for anything.

• 21:05Griffin Newman?

  It's like the equivalent of making an Old Yellow reference or whatever, where you're like, yeah, that old thing that we use as shorthand.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  And of all of the Star Wars references that they might have made.

• 21:14Griffin Newman?

  Yoda's in shit.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  There could have been anything in shit on there.

• 21:16Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  Boba Fett's and shit, Skywalker's and shit.

• 21:20Griffin Newman?

  They knew Yoda's was the funniest.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  Lobots and shit.

• 21:22Griffin Newman?

  Not just linguistically.

• 21:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 21:25Speaker 04

  But even Joel and Ethan Cohen would look at Lobots and shit and go, no, let's dial it back.

• 21:29Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  Yoda's.

• 21:30Griffin Newman?

  Right. It has to be, right.

• 21:32Speaker 04

  Making Yoda the butt of a joke in itself is really funny.

• 21:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 21:35Speaker 04

  And then also, I felt profoundly seen.

• 21:39Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 21:39Speaker 04

  By that line.

• 21:40Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  And by, and this, I wouldn't even say that I was seen in this movie in terms of my love of this kind of storytelling.

• 21:47Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  Because I didn't know, it created that love in me. And the only, the other moment of sheer electricity, and this is good because I'm bringing us to the beginning of the movie.

• 21:59Griffin Newman?

  Good.

• 22:00Speaker 04

  That long opening narration.

• 22:03David Sims?

  And then cutting to the credits.

• 22:04Speaker 04

  And the, the yodeling and the, and the Raising Arizona hitting the screen at 11 minutes in.

• 22:12Griffin Newman?

  It has that feeling that I.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  I felt, I, my memory is, I stood up and gave a standing ovation in that moment. But the theater truly was electric, the Harvard Square Theater.

• 22:21Griffin Newman?

  Wonderful.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  I don't know, I don't think it's there anymore, but it was an arthouse. It's also where I saw Swimming to Cambodia and The Princess Bride.

• 22:28David Sims?

  Sure, late 80s classics all.

• 22:30Griffin Newman?

  It, it has the feeling of what I often only now get in the modern era from the good Mission Impossible movies. Where when they light the fuse, you're like, fuck, right? They haven't even done that yet.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 22:43Griffin Newman?

  Right? That feeling that Raising Arizona is going at like eight trillion miles per hour and 11 minutes. It's like, by the way, here are the opening credits.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:50Griffin Newman?

  You're like, oh my God, you are like playing like, you're pitching a perfect game so far. I also think.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  And can I just say this because I'll forget it?

• 22:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Eight million miles, a trillion miles an hour.

• 23:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Describes this movie, and yet at every point in the movie, you feel like they're taking their time.

• 23:05Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 23:06Speaker 04

  There's nothing rushed about it.

• 23:08Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 23:08David Sims?

  No, it, the beginning of the movie, you are like, wow, is this going to be like this breakneck throughout?

• 23:14Griffin Newman?

  Is it all a montage?

• 23:15David Sims?

  Right. Is it, is it truly a Looney Tune?

• 23:18Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 23:19David Sims?

  And then it does, you know, manage to sort of shift into a lower gear without it feeling whiplashy.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  And that yodeling?

• 23:26Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  I mean, aside from being iconic.

• 23:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  You, you did it, right?

• 23:30David Sims?

  One year old David.

• 23:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it was good.

• 23:31Speaker 04

  I used to be able to hit those notes.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  Iconic, like DVD menu that you're like, oh, turn it off, turn it off. Like it's just like on a loop.

• 23:42Griffin Newman?

  Yep. I put my disc in and was like, let me brush my teeth and then I'll like start watching it. And I just, I had to hear that yodel eight trillion times as I got distracted.

• 23:52Speaker 04

  I listened to Walking Around yesterday.

• 23:54Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  I didn't even have my AirPods in.

• 23:56Griffin Newman?

  You were just surrounded by Carter Burwell and his yodeling.

• 23:59Speaker 04

  No, I had a, I had a boombox on the subway.

• 24:01Griffin Newman?

  Okay, good.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  But in the moment of seeing the movie, yes, I reson, I laughed harder than I'd ever laughed in any movie. It was genuinely funny. My Charles Diggs felt the same way. I dare say he probably does still. And I remember the audience walking out of there just on, on clouds.

• 24:19Griffin Newman?

  My, my guarantee point is more that the holy shit, these guys are for real only goes so far if you've never made a return on investment. And I think that they did the two parts separately, kind of gave them

• 24:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:36Griffin Newman?

  the ground. And a lot of it, as, as we will continue to cover in this series is they found a couple of big champions early on, who were just like, we'll keep making your movies.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're right. You're right. The most important part of their career.

• 24:49Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Is how closely it tracks to the premise of this podcast.

• 24:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  And we should probably talk about that.

• 24:53Griffin Newman?

  But like circle films and then working title films. They got companies where they were just, they, they kind of cracked their model of like,

• 24:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:59Griffin Newman?

  you guys are pros. You come in like on time, under budget, under schedule. Great actors want to work with you. Like the

• 25:07Speaker 04

  You have great taste in actors?

• 25:09Griffin Newman?

  The risk here is low enough. It feels like one of these is going to hit and break through in some way. And when you get to Hudsucker Proxy, it's Joel Silver being like, from the moment I saw Raising Arizona, it was apparent to me that these guys were going to make the crossover to being hyper mainstream, big budget comedy filmmakers. Like he talks about making Hudsucker as if it was like, they were like two steps away from their Ghostbusters. And then they would continue to be Ivan Reitman, you know?

• 25:37Speaker 04

  And I feel like, who knows whether tho, those expectations were conveyed to them?

• 25:42Griffin Newman?

  I don't know.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  But like when Joel Silver comes in, he's like, I've been waiting for your big blockbuster. They're like, terrific. Here's Hudsucker Proxy.

• 25:48Griffin Newman?

  Which is another example of like, It's the crime wave element.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  Well, Hudsucker Proxy is a, you know, it is a crime wave spiritual sequel.

• 25:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 25:58David Sims?

  Joel and Ethan Cohen.

• 25:59Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Who are they?

• 26:00David Sims?

  Made Blood Simple without any major investment, of course.

• 26:04Griffin Newman?

  Mostly from local dentists and doctors.

• 26:06David Sims?

  Yes.

• 26:07Griffin Newman?

  Family friends.

• 26:08David Sims?

  Uh, Circle Films, however, distribute the movie, as we talked about last week, and they gave the Coens an oral commitment to produce their next picture.

• 26:16Griffin Newman?

  And the oral commitment, by the way, the way it sounded out loud was.

• 26:22David Sims?

  Jim Jacks, who's been discussed on this show.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  While you're narrating, can I do a little ode to Joy background?

• 26:27Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Jim Jacks, who Kevin Smith very beautifully eulogized, but was this kind of key figure who had started out as a film exhibitor and theater owner, and then eventually becomes a producer and was this guy who at Universal in the eighties and nineties kept plucking people from Sundance and being like, are you ready to make your studio film? And he is responsible for Raising Arizona, Mall Rats, Dazed and Confused, several of these, you've impressed me, here's five to 10 million dollars to make your strike at a studio comedy.

• 26:58David Sims?

  They present Jim Jacks for the screenplay for Raising Arizona. He's happy to see that not only did the Coens plan to follow through on their commitment, but they wanted to sign on for even more Circle Films. Jacks was kind of afraid.

• 27:10Griffin Newman?

  Do the ode to Joy.

• 27:12Speaker 04

  What'd you say there?

• 27:13David Sims?

  Can I just do the dossier, please? Jacks, Jacks was kind of afraid that, like, because Blood Simple was actually hot. I feel like you guys should be listening to me.

• 27:24Griffin Newman?

  We are listening.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  We're listening.

• 27:25Griffin Newman?

  We're multitasking.

• 27:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're just adding.

• 27:27Griffin Newman?

  Like you checking emails.

• 27:28Speaker 04

  Layers of of mannered style that are distracting from the substance of the, the moment.

• 27:34Griffin Newman?

  Exactly.

• 27:35David Sims?

  He was worried they'd go by, go for something bigger, essentially. They actually had enough juice that they probably didn't need to return to Circle Films at that moment. But instead, they make a deal for four pictures. Blood Simple, Raising Arizona, Miller's Classic, Barton Fink are the total, you know, Circle Films deal.

• 27:52Griffin Newman?

  Good for.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:53David Sims?

  Yeah. And essentially, Jacks is basically like, you can decide what you want to make, and within reason, we will fund it. Like, you know, like, it's, you know, no. Studio meddling whatsoever, essentially. Film was made for about $3 million, I think. And then three weeks into production, 20th Century Fox put up another $3 million.

• 28:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 28:17David Sims?

  Which I don't, you know, I guess to get the distribution rights.

• 28:20Griffin Newman?

  Can you imagine spooling the dailies for this thing?

• 28:24David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 28:24Griffin Newman?

  Right? Like, if you're just seeing the raw footage, you're just like, who the fuck are these guys? And also, who the fuck are Holly Hunter or Nicolas Cage? Like, we should, we should pour more money into this. They're on to something.

• 28:37David Sims?

  I mean, I agree with you. Yeah.

• 28:39Griffin Newman?

  I think you watch any, like, raw footage of this.

• 28:43David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 28:43Griffin Newman?

  And you're like, something interesting is happening here.

• 28:45David Sims?

  Give them three more million dollars.

• 28:46Griffin Newman?

  Exactly.

• 28:47Speaker 04

  So people made decisions based on different things, then?

• 28:50Griffin Newman?

  Very different.

• 28:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:51David Sims?

  Um, so Holly Hunter, of course.

• 28:54Speaker 04

  I think because people wanted to make movies.

• 28:56Griffin Newman?

  People liked movies. The people who made movies liked movies.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  People who made movies didn't hate movies?

• 29:00Griffin Newman?

  They took pride, in fact, in having completed a film.

• 29:03Speaker 04

  To make a movie, they were like, yeah, let's do make that movie instead of finding 10 ways to not make a movie.

• 29:08Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 29:08Speaker 04

  Sorry, Dan.

• 29:09Griffin Newman?

  And sometimes now, these days, ways to unmake a movie that has been made and instead becomes a write-off.

• 29:17David Sims?

  Holly Hunter, of course, is an old pal of the Coen Brothers and.

• 29:20Griffin Newman?

  Former roommate of Franny McDormand.

• 29:22David Sims?

  And they had tried to cast her in Blood Simple, and we talked about that. Uh, but she basically is always on their radar for this movie. And their other big thing is just, we want to do something that's completely different from Blood Simple. We do not want something tense. We want something funny. We want a quicker rhythm. And we want Holly Hunter to be in it.

• 29:44Griffin Newman?

  All great instincts.

• 29:47David Sims?

  They, uh, wrote the specific image of Holly in uniform hurling orders at prisoners. That was like, whatever. That's their germ of a idea of a role.

• 29:57Speaker 04

  Turn to the right.

• 29:58David Sims?

  Yep.

• 29:59Griffin Newman?

  But that's immediately identifying a like, Holly Hunter can be the smallest, most like, chipmunk voiced woman in a room and yet command that level of authority.

• 30:08David Sims?

  Right.

• 30:08Griffin Newman?

  And you can mine comedy out of that is like a very, very smart thing for them to locate before anyone else has captured that on film.

• 30:17David Sims?

  Um, now, they are sort of getting, I guess, already, pretty much starting with Blood Simple, the question that I feel like they get throughout their career, which is like, are you making fun of these people or not? Right? Like the sort of like. You know, you're making these movies about like downtrodden folk or poor folk or criminals or right, you know, like people on the fringes. Or then, once you get to Fargo, like honest Minnesotans or, you know, and it's like,

• 30:42Griffin Newman?

  Are you guys elitist bullies?

• 30:44David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 30:45David Sims?

  And obviously, I think Raising Arizona is one of their most like plainly open-hearted and sympathetic films.

• 30:52Griffin Newman?

  We,

• 30:53David Sims?

  And it's like, it's all right here.

• 30:54Griffin Newman?

  Look, we've recorded a lot of the episodes in this series already. It is a recurring thing that we go back to of like the strongest sort of like ideological vein you can find across all of their films is the belief in like individual people.

• 31:09David Sims?

  Right.

• 31:09Griffin Newman?

  Right? Right? A massive distrust of of systems.

• 31:12David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 31:12Griffin Newman?

  But like, that a good person is kind of the most valuable thing on the planet.

• 31:18David Sims?

  Yeah. They value decency.

• 31:19Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 31:20David Sims?

  Like, for as much critique and shit eating that they were, I don't think they ever ate the shit, but they were offered shit to eat.

• 31:27Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 31:27David Sims?

  For being arch, for being satirical, which they never were, right?

• 31:35Griffin Newman?

  And and sort of,

• 31:36David Sims?

  Mannered and reserved and stylized.

• 31:39Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 31:39David Sims?

  These were their action figures they were playing with not real people. In fact, they're profoundly real people, and they are all treated with incredible sympathy.

• 31:48Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:50David Sims?

  The Coens, a lot of interesting quotes that JJ's dug up here from like, you know, interviews over the years. This is from Joel. People have a problem dealing with the fact that our movies are not straight ahead. They prefer that Raising Arizona was just about a couple of schmoes and a trailer for a corner of a kid. The arrival of bounty hunter from hell interrupts the comfort level people have with their world, but we feel a strong emotional connection to these characters. We're not laughing down at them.

• 32:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 32:12David Sims?

  And this is also from Joel, where he's like, you ever seen a movie where someone gets shot and the scoop goes off and blood runs down? You get a reaction. It's movie fodder. In a different way, a baby's face is movie fodder too. Right? You know what I mean? Like, they don't start with it's a baby getting kidnapped, but they get start with it's a couple. There's a circumstance, they, you know, you know what I mean? Like, and then they're like, well, baby, like, that will get blood running, right? You know? Well, make people blood simple. That's true, and they did think about that at all times. But I feel like- And there's some incredible babyface acting in this movie. That's what I'm saying, and like, the image of a car stopping short and almost hitting a baby is so, like, it makes your, the whole body sit up, right? You know, like-

• 32:56Griffin Newman?

  But also, the image of the baby pulling its own hood down, like, I don't want to see this, is just like, on an animal level, one of the funniest things you could possibly see.

• 33:05David Sims?

  Absolutely. What if a baby had a day out?

• 33:08Griffin Newman?

  Well, the hijinks that would ensue.

• 33:11David Sims?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 33:11Griffin Newman?

  The chaos that would-

• 33:12David Sims?

  And I'm not saying a day out, like, at a nursery. I'm saying, like, the Big Apple.

• 33:17Griffin Newman?

  Like a Big Apple.

• 33:18David Sims?

  Right.

• 33:18Griffin Newman?

  But surely, he stays ground level.

• 33:20David Sims?

  And I don't mean a fruit.

• 33:21Griffin Newman?

  He's not gonna crawl his way up to the, the tallest steel beams, would he?

• 33:26David Sims?

  That was a movie that, as a kid, I was like, this is one of the eight or nine most important films ever made, right?

• 33:30Griffin Newman?

  What is the country, is it Malaysia? There is one country where babies day out, it's like, still the highest grossing film of all time.

• 33:37David Sims?

  It's because it's universally, like, everyone's like, can get that.

• 33:40Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 33:40David Sims?

  The baby had a day out.

• 33:41Griffin Newman?

  But in one country, it has a disproportionate reputation.

• 33:44David Sims?

  Uh, it is, uh, it just says it's a popular film in South Asia.

• 33:51Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 33:52David Sims?

  And it was remade several times in different, like, uh, South Asian countries. But I'm not seeing the specific thing you're talking about.

• 33:59Griffin Newman?

  There's one country, I'll figure it out at some point. I do just want to call out, at the time of this film, uh, Ethan Cohen, I'm sorry, Joel Cohen, engaged to Mary Frances McDormand, I believe that they get married the year this film is released. But obviously, in the time between Blood Simple and this, their love has flourished. In 1995, they adopt a child.

• 34:20David Sims?

  Oh.

• 34:21Griffin Newman?

  Uh.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Boo, sorry.

• 34:24Griffin Newman?

  And we were talking with, uh, the great Ray Zentori and Jordan Fish last week, guests on, on our previous episode.

• 34:31Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 34:31Griffin Newman?

  About this whole feeling of like, are, are the Coens like dispassionate? Are they elusive? Are they making these movies at arms length?

• 34:37Speaker 04

  Aloof even.

• 34:38Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Joel has this like first marriage that is rarely talked about, that falls apart before they write Blood Simple, right? Which is all about.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 34:48Griffin Newman?

  Being stuck in bad marriages, right? And obviously that situation did not heighten to murder attempts. But there's something there that feels like an extrapolation of an energy of an internal struggle, right? In the same way where it's just like, he's marrying the woman he's gonna be with to our present day.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:06Griffin Newman?

  And, and seven years, eight years after the release of this film, they adopt a child.

• 35:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 35:11Griffin Newman?

  There is something in the mix of this movie that is clearly, if not autobiographical, is at least like touching on clearly conversations.

• 35:19Speaker 04

  Here.

• 35:19Griffin Newman?

  Feelings of the future.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  But here's the thing that makes, that that story makes me think about.

• 35:24Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 35:26Speaker 04

  Even to this day,

• 35:29Speaker 04

  we, among the people who love the Coens a lot.

• 35:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  If not the most.

• 35:34Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  Are still sort of making arguments that like, you know, they're human beings.

• 35:39David Sims?

  Yeah, I think.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:40David Sims?

  Right, and kind of being like, I think this is what's going on with them, you know, not like, oh, they've talked about how this is what's going on.

• 35:46Griffin Newman?

  But this was Ray's point of just like, you can like draw analogues to even the limited information we know about their lives, right? There's still a lot of extrapolation there in the middle.

• 35:57Speaker 04

  They're not particularly secretive about their lives.

• 35:59Griffin Newman?

  No, but they're also not overly candid.

• 36:02Speaker 04

  But I mean, sure, cause they're, and they are literal human beings.

• 36:05Griffin Newman?

  Smart.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  Who have emotions.

• 36:07Griffin Newman?

  To not overshare shit.

• 36:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, and but, you know, and yet, I think that one of the reasons that this movie and some of their other movies.

• 36:15Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  Were, that they were, that they were held at arms length.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  Even to this day.

• 36:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:22Speaker 04

  Because people felt like they were being held at arm's length by them.

• 36:25Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  And that their virtuosity as writer, director, producer, editors.

• 36:30Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:31Speaker 04

  The, the absolutely innovative way that they approach story.

• 36:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:37Speaker 04

  Structurally and then visually as well. Their ability to get these incredible actors and to spot them before people, other people have spotted them. It's all very intimidating.

• 36:47Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 36:47Speaker 04

  And I think that, and, and they are very stylized and they are very mannered. And so I feel like we're still making this argument like, well, you know, uh, Joel Cohen and Frances McDormand, I mean, they have human souls.

• 37:02Griffin Newman?

  I mean, not to be, not to be base about this, but there is a degree to which they feel like space aliens.

• 37:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 37:08Griffin Newman?

  These two funky looking guys who kind of stand stoically.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  And the work is not one to one representation of what's going on with them emotionally. It's being transformed and iterated.

• 37:18Griffin Newman?

  Correct.

• 37:19Speaker 04

  And changed. And I, I, I interrupted you and I apologize.

• 37:21Griffin Newman?

  No, no, but I, I think it makes people assume, and, and also what you're saying, like, that they were so virtuistic from the beginning, where it was like, where did these guys fucking learn how to do all of this perfectly, right out of the gate? And even the way that people talk about them directing, you know, the, the thing that all their collaborators talk about, the actors who work with them for the first time are like, they really are the two headed director. It is bizarre where one guy will come up and give you a note and walk away. And the second guy will come up from a different room and finish the sentence.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:56Griffin Newman?

  You know, and even that is like, what is this weird communication between them, between, you know, the fucking universe or whatever, that I think makes people feel like, are there movies like them studying mankind from a remove, right? Are they looking at us through a telescope in space? And then sort of like pulling levers?

• 38:17Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, one of the reasons it really resonated.

• 38:20Griffin Newman?

  David hates when we analyze movies on this podcast. His two least favorite things are analyzing movies and talking about the career arcs of directors. And I will say recently we've been buttoned up against this as a little bit of an issue.

• 38:34Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 38:35David Sims?

  Yes?

• 38:35Griffin Newman?

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• 38:56David Sims?

  Yeah, this new full cast thriller locks Mina Harker in a battle of minds with the Count. When Mina's fiance, Jonathan Harker, Louis Partridge, vanishes in Transylvania, Mina pieces together letters, diary entries, and chilling testimony to hunt the predator stalking those she loves, only to discover Dracula's already hunting her.

• 39:16Griffin Newman?

  Joined by the enigmatic Van Helsing, Mina and a small fearless band race against time to stop this ancient terror. Using her intellect, her resolve, and a gift for drawing the unseen lines between clues, Mina may just hold the key to bring down the Count if he hasn't already found his way inside her mind.

• 39:32David Sims?

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• 40:06Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 40:07David Sims?

  Hmm?

• 40:07Griffin Newman?

  It's not cuffing season for me. It's hosi season for me. And this year, that meant finally upgrading my new mattress from Lisa.

• 40:15David Sims?

  Lisa!

• 40:16Griffin Newman?

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• 40:23David Sims?

  Yeah, I have a Lisa too. They've got a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep.

• 40:29Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:30David Sims?

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• 40:36Griffin Newman?

  Maybe you hear eco-friendly and you go, oh, but I'm gonna sacrifice comfort.

• 40:40David Sims?

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• 40:41Griffin Newman?

  Nope.

• 40:42David Sims?

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• 41:29Griffin Newman?

  David!

• 41:29David Sims?

  Yes?

• 41:30Griffin Newman?

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• 41:34David Sims?

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• 41:39Griffin Newman?

  I love that. It's very convenient.

• 41:41David Sims?

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• 41:48Griffin Newman?

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• 41:56David Sims?

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• 42:01Griffin Newman?

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• 42:49Speaker 04

  I was thinking about delayed opening credits.

• 42:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  The legacy of delayed opening credits a lot.

• 42:56Griffin Newman?

  I hope you're gonna make the point I hope you're gonna make.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, obviously, this podcast would not exist were it not for Raising Arizona and the delayed opening credits, uh, uh, habit.

• 43:05Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 04

  But you're wearing a hat.

• 43:08Griffin Newman?

  John, thank you. I was teeing this up and I got sidetracked.

• 43:12Speaker 04

  Listener at home, or in the car, or wherever you are, in the divan where you recreate.

• 43:17Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  Can't see the, Riven is wearing this very specific hat.

• 43:21Griffin Newman?

  A very specific hat. I wasn't sure if you.

• 43:22Speaker 04

  On perhaps the one year anniversary.

• 43:24Griffin Newman?

  Perhaps.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Or close to it.

• 43:25Griffin Newman?

  Just about.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  Of us going to the movies together to see a movie called Hundreds of Beavers.

• 43:29Griffin Newman?

  You and I having a static in theater experience, a film I talked about a lot last year and in our Blankies Awards this year.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:35Griffin Newman?

  But a similar, like, where the fuck did this come from? Who are these people? But that is a movie that takes, I believe, one full hour to get to the credits. I saw that film twice in theaters and both times, the audience applauds because they're the magic trick of like, oh, fuck, I somehow.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  I hadn't even gotten to the opening credits yet.

• 43:51Griffin Newman?

  That you hadn't done that yet.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's a great feeling. And that's, that's a movie that's similar to what I imagine seeing Raising Arizona in theaters felt like.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:00Griffin Newman?

  And Edgar Wright talks about this as like the most important movie of his life and you feel the influence of so much on all of his work.

• 44:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:07Griffin Newman?

  That he sees this and goes, you can make movies like this?

• 44:10Speaker 04

  That's how I felt. And I'd never made a movie, by the way.

• 44:12Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 44:13Speaker 04

  But I know from seeing the movie, you can make movies like this if you aren't lazy and tired like me. But I mean, like, you can do whatever you want.

• 44:22Griffin Newman?

  I had never considered the possibility until this moment that movies could be made this way.

• 44:26Speaker 04

  And even though Star Wars didn't exist at that time, we were already, I think, in the beginning of the stranglehold of the hero's journey.

• 44:35Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 44:36Speaker 04

  On screenplay writing, both popular and artistic. And here was a movie that was destabilizing precisely because doesn't follow a pattern that you understand.

• 44:47Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  You're getting a whole pre-story before you get to the credits. Then it changes tone, or it slows down. Uh, it has these wild comedic sequences that are basically. Looney Tunes.

• 45:00Griffin Newman?

  Your heroes of the film are ostensibly doing a pretty awful thing.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:05Griffin Newman?

  For very emotionally valid reasons.

• 45:07Speaker 04

  And then Randall Tex Cobb drives a motorcycle from hell into it.

• 45:10Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 45:11Speaker 04

  And, you know, I remember people critiquing it then and revisiting these critiques. It's like, well, now I don't know if this is even real.

• 45:17Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 45:18Speaker 04

  Like, of course it's not real. It's a movie.

• 45:20Griffin Newman?

  Saw this in so many reviews at the time. Well, I don't even know what reality this film takes place in.

• 45:24Speaker 04

  I don't know if this is a fantasy or what.

• 45:26Griffin Newman?

  Do they want us to take it seriously?

• 45:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:28Griffin Newman?

  David, how was your P?

• 45:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 45:29David Sims?

  Great. Flannery O'Connor and William Faulkner are influences on them. They say they specifically took the phrase Warthog from hell from Flannery O'Connor. Preston Sturgis.

• 45:41Griffin Newman?

  And then Pumba took it from them.

• 45:42David Sims?

  Preston Sturgis is obviously an influence on them. They say Palm Beach story in particular, the manic energy of that film, a masterpiece in every single way.

• 45:51Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 45:52David Sims?

  And you guys might not have realized this, but because you haven't mentioned it all, neither have I, cartoons.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  Cartoons.

• 45:58David Sims?

  Ethan Cohen says, "We thought about those characters who rebound and collide. Simply their speed of movement, we tried to refine the spirit of animation you find in pinball machines."

• 46:08Griffin Newman?

  He's got the Woody Woodpecker tattoo. The hairstyle is a very deliberate Woody Woodpecker homage. Cage was very, very disciplined, focused, intense about the idea that his hair had to match the relationship to the character's energy in the scene. That there's a direct correlation between hair height and, right, how cartoonish he becomes.

• 46:32Speaker 04

  And yet, I mean, like, even though he identifies as the outlaw, right? And he's like, isn't my son a little outlaw and I'm a little outlaw and everything else? He doesn't have it in him to be a Bugs Bunny. Or a Woody Woodpecker. No. He's too nice.

• 46:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  He's too decent ultimately.

• 46:48Griffin Newman?

  He's, well, they always.

• 46:49Speaker 04

  He can't say, "Am I a stinker?"

• 46:50Griffin Newman?

  It's funny that.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  "Or am I a stinker?"

• 46:51Griffin Newman?

  I feel like when they talk about this movie now, both the Cohens and Cage.

• 46:56Speaker 04

  I'm talking about the characters, yeah, it's not Cage.

• 46:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, yeah. I feel like they, they talk about Wile E. Coyote, right?

• 47:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:04Griffin Newman?

  And Wile E. Coyote is in pursuit of a thing.

• 47:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:08Griffin Newman?

  That much like them wanting to steal the baby. You're like, isn't this gonna harm other people when you do this? And yet the pursuit seems so pure and not malicious.

• 47:17Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:18Griffin Newman?

  And driven by these like unquenchable human needs. And also they're just constantly getting fucked with. Like even though Wile E. Coyote is the aggressor, he is the pitiful

• 47:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:29Griffin Newman?

  empathetic character because you're just like, this guy's getting it from all directions. And also much like Cage, there's just some kind of inherent sadness baked into the design of this character.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:39Griffin Newman?

  The saddest eyes in cinema.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  That's right. I was just gonna say, they really made a lot of those eyes.

• 47:44Griffin Newman?

  And then what?

• 47:44Speaker 04

  They really found the sadness in those eyes.

• 47:46Griffin Newman?

  What if Wile E. Coyote, who is silent, instead has the inner monologue of the fucking Flannery O'Connor? You know, like that is the brilliant characterization of this movie is like, this guy's got like a poet's soul.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you know, David, to your, as you were saying, like, people are like, well, how did they learn to do this? I don't know. They read books and saw movies.

• 48:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 04

  And interpreted it.

• 48:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 48:09Speaker 04

  Well, no, but you're like, that, that, you know, this is inspired by Preston Sturgis, it's inspired by Flannery O'Connor. It's like, you know.

• 48:16David Sims?

  I think the Coen Brothers have the juice. I'm gonna say it. This is their first film with Donna Isaacson, who is an early casting director that they work with, works with them on the next three films too. Also worked with Danny Boyle later on.

• 48:28Griffin Newman?

  She made some quite good discoveries in the casting of this film.

• 48:31David Sims?

  Oh, really? I didn't notice anyone in this movie that really had an enduring career. It's interesting. Donna Isaacson, this is a great quote, great quote from her. I will say, anytime I talk to a casting director, pretty much the greatest people on earth to talk to. If you like, care about movies, like in a certain way.

• 48:48David Sims?

  Thing about the Coen Brothers is they embrace a concept and a place in a world, and they're completely faithful to that world. If you don't hear the music of the script, you're not right for it. You have to hear it.

• 48:58Griffin Newman?

  That's dead on.

• 48:59David Sims?

  Nicolas Cage quickly takes the film's story and tone, not shockingly. Like truly not like, you know, real, like he, he heard it. He, he says, he understood where the humor was, what beats musically to hit. Other people considered Willem Dafoe.

• 49:14Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 49:15David Sims?

  Right off of like Platoon, essentially.

• 49:17Griffin Newman?

  Would have been too dark.

• 49:18David Sims?

  Probably.

• 49:19Griffin Newman?

  You think?

• 49:22Griffin Newman?

  Would have been a little too scary.

• 49:23David Sims?

  Yeah, I mean, even Willem in whimsy mode usually does have a hint of malevolence.

• 49:29Griffin Newman?

  Willem holding a baby, your immediate thought is, is he gonna eat that baby?

• 49:31David Sims?

  Yeah, I mean, it's like-

• 49:32Griffin Newman?

  And it doesn't matter the context the movie has built around the character.

• 49:35David Sims?

  It's like, instead of casting someone with the saddest eyes in cinema, what if we had H.I. McDonough have retractable jaws like Alien?

• 49:42Griffin Newman?

  The meanest teeth in cinema.

• 49:48David Sims?

  Kevin Costner and Nicolas Cage had the same agent at the time, Ed Lamont.

• 49:52Griffin Newman?

  This was a big discovery from JJ.

• 49:54David Sims?

  Of William Morris. And the agent was like, both of my guys are too big for this movie. Like, essentially, both of my guys are hitting right now. They're about to be big stars. They don't need to be doing a tiny movie like this.

• 50:05Griffin Newman?

  And they certainly don't want to audition for it.

• 50:07David Sims?

  Exactly. Kevin, Cage essentially, a junior agent convinces Lamont to let Cage meet the Coens, but not Reed. And I guess-

• 50:19Griffin Newman?

  It's a status thing.

• 50:21David Sims?

  So annoying. I guess that was sort of enough for the Coens. But then Costner is so determined, he agrees to read without telling his agent. He like surreptitiously reads for that.

• 50:31Griffin Newman?

  Costner really wanted this, which is fascinating.

• 50:34David Sims?

  He read opposite Holly Hunter, then Cage hears about this, so Cage is like, fine, I'll re- You know, like, they start to fight for it, and Cage gets the role. Obviously, a perfect, like, Cage must have this role.

• 50:47Griffin Newman?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 50:48David Sims?

  I don't, Costner getting this role, his entire career is probably different. He might be okay. I don't know.

• 50:55Griffin Newman?

  When we did our Costner series, we talked about the Silverado thing, right? And how much he loved playing that kind of Rapsgallian character. And basically, right after that, he is pushed, not against his will, but they're like, "Congratulations, you are the grand oak tree of America."

• 51:10David Sims?

  Yeah, you're the new Gary Cooper.

• 51:11Griffin Newman?

  Right. And I think that he was still in this point where he's like, can I play the fucking fun, dangerous guy?

• 51:16David Sims?

  Can I be, ha, ha, ha, ha, Woody Woodpecker?

• 51:18Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Now, I think Costner would have been-

• 51:23Griffin Newman?

  I don't want to say too sincere, but I think it's the thing that Cage gets.

• 51:27Speaker 04

  He would be too grounded.

• 51:29Griffin Newman?

  Yes, and the expression, I think Costner can be funny and I think he can be big, but he's best at sort of understated, you know, kind of off the shoulder kind of stuff.

• 51:37Speaker 04

  Look, Bull Durham.

• 51:40Griffin Newman?

  He's phenomenal.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  Okay, here's a movie where obviously he plays a different kind of, well, he's not a rap scout. Well, he's a rapscallion.

• 51:47Griffin Newman?

  He is.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  He's a rapscallion. A movie full of verbal dexterity like this movie?

• 51:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 04

  Like lines that are big meals?

• 51:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  And also featuring Nathan Arizona's in that movie too.

• 51:59Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 52:00Speaker 04

  Before he died at the age of 40.

• 52:01Griffin Newman?

  Incredible. That is the hardest 40 that anyone has ever lived to.

• 52:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, but you know, he-

• 52:08David Sims?

  Trey Wilson is the actor.

• 52:09Speaker 04

  But Bull Durham is a, even though it's a wackadoo film with some, some real funny parts to it. It's not a cartoon fantasy.

• 52:17Griffin Newman?

  It's also built around Costner's stoic magnetism, which this movie needs to be fucking propulsive. And I also think for how much Cage has been on the record talking about his theories and his principles on acting, right?

• 52:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:29Griffin Newman?

  And how he thinks that acting can be impressionistic, right?

• 52:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 52:38David Sims?

  And that is his approach.

• 52:39Griffin Newman?

  He thinks about rather than just like embodying a character in the reality honestly, that he's like, I'm, I'm a piece of equipment. I'm part of visual storytelling. It doesn't need to reflect reality. It needs to reflect a feeling or an idea.

• 52:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:53Griffin Newman?

  And I think that's the part of him that reads the script and not only gets the language of it, but understands visually what he needs to be in the movie.

• 53:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:01Griffin Newman?

  And how to manipulate his body and do things.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  He has a physical rubberiness.

• 53:06Griffin Newman?

  Because he's like-

• 53:06Speaker 04

  That matches the Looney Tunes tone.

• 53:09Griffin Newman?

  He's like, what I'm doing in relation to these fucking wide angle lenses is a big part of it. Rather than like, what is my motivation? My motivation is I know what this shock should look like.

• 53:20David Sims?

  Right. Now, the Coens, as you guys may or may not know, are not the kind of guys who are like, yeah, do whatever you want. They are like, read the lines. We have a pretty autocratic, you know, sense of this.

• 53:30Griffin Newman?

  Never work with Cage again.

• 53:32David Sims?

  Nope.

• 53:32Griffin Newman?

  And it's not like-

• 53:32David Sims?

  I don't think, they did not get along basically at all. They kind of talk about it in this way of, everyone's like happy now.

• 53:39Griffin Newman?

  Cage talks about it the same way, where he's like- You know, they have that meeting, they're like, hell yeah, this guy gets it. And then in classic Cage fashion, he shows up to set every day and it's like, here's 10 new ideas they had. And they're like, right, and what we want you to do is what we wrote and here are the storyboards. And he's like, but what if I did that upside down? And they're like, right, and what we wrote and the storyboards are what you should be doing. And they've talked a lot about, you know, they start out with $3 million, they end up with $6 million, whatever. The way they make this movie look this big and this great and this tight on that budget is they were just like obsessive meticulous planning.

• 54:16Speaker 04

  Which is their story of their success, like going forward.

• 54:19Griffin Newman?

  And as things go on, they're like, we build a perfect plan and then we're still open to things changing on the day if a better idea comes along. But at this early point, and with them getting such a big shot at like the studio big leagues, they're like, we've nailed this down. And the only way this movie is going to work is if we stick to our plan. And Cage coming in and being like, what about this dreadlock wig? I think they were just like, Nick? Stand there.

• 54:45Speaker 04

  Have you ever seen the movie Trading Places? I'd like to.

• 54:48Griffin Newman?

  Cause I.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  Dan Aykroyd on the Amtrak train.

• 54:51Griffin Newman?

  The frustrating part of it must have been to them that they're like, this guy gets it. We had the meeting, he's locked in, we're not having to trick him into this performance. We're just like, stop throwing out other stuff on top of this.

• 55:03Speaker 04

  People, look, it's really hard when someone says, I know better than you.

• 55:07Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 55:07Speaker 04

  And it's especially hard when they do.

• 55:09Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:10Speaker 04

  Like, everyone hates to know it all, especially when they know pretty much all.

• 55:14David Sims?

  Cage is the one who puts the Woody Woodpecker tattoo on because he's like, I think my character is Woody Woodpecker come to life.

• 55:21Griffin Newman?

  And you need the audience to understand, like.

• 55:23David Sims?

  Right.

• 55:24Griffin Newman?

  The movie's telling you how to watch it. This guy's a cartoon character.

• 55:28David Sims?

  The Coens probably tolerated that because they're like, if it's just going on your body and you're not going to, if you're going to say the lines as we wrote them, okay.

• 55:35Griffin Newman?

  But they also repurpose it into something that then thematically matters at the end of the movie.

• 55:38David Sims?

  When he tears, yeah.

• 55:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 55:40David Sims?

  Uh, Cage used to make little movies called Super, well, on Super 8 cameras.

• 55:45Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 55:45David Sims?

  And so did the Coens when they, you know, they had, and so Cage said. They had this thing called a super eight feeling. He, they would talk about together.

• 55:52Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 55:53David Sims?

  Like when they were doing something that they both were excited by, the Coens and Cage on this movie, they would say, I've been getting that super eight feeling.

• 55:59Griffin Newman?

  That's so linked also to the fucking like, uh, Raymi Brothers, Campbell. I mean, I, I wanna circle back to this, but there is like such a continuum, even just within the history of this show of like, Road Warrior, Evil Dead, and this movie, you know? Uh, or even you could say, Road Warrior, Evil Dead 2, and this movie, all feel like a thing that was happening through connection.

• 56:26David Sims?

  Right.

• 56:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 56:28David Sims?

  The one time they claimed that they maybe were gonna work together again.

• 56:32Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:33David Sims?

  Um, is this movie called 62 Skidoo, which was kinda like a hippie surfer movie that Coens would talk about sometime. That they would be like, we'd, we'd like, like, it's like a Cold War comedy with about like amnesia and it's like a funny Manchurian candidate and like, we want Cage to do that.

• 56:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 56:51David Sims?

  So like, they never were like, we'd absolutely, and this is in the 2000s that they're talking about this. You know what I mean? Like, they have the, the respect for Cage.

• 56:59Griffin Newman?

  Especially when the guy becomes like a fucking 20 million dollar movie star with an Oscar.

• 57:03David Sims?

  Right. But it never came together. And obviously Cage's career kind of sputters out in the mid 2000s.

• 57:08Griffin Newman?

  We'll talk about this.

• 57:09David Sims?

  Reviving, right.

• 57:10Griffin Newman?

  Uh, 2010 is really, late, late 2000s is when it really hits a wall, but, um.

• 57:14David Sims?

  Well, he really hated bees.

• 57:15Griffin Newman?

  He hated them.

• 57:16David Sims?

  Yeah, that was probably the problem. Had to work with bees.

• 57:19Griffin Newman?

  We'll talk about this in many weeks from now, but Ladykillers was originally set up as a Nicolas Cage vehicle directed by Barry Sonnenfeld.

• 57:28David Sims?

  Uh-huh.

• 57:29Griffin Newman?

  And it is when Cage, I forget what movie he ends up doing, instead of that drops out, that Sonnenfeld walks away and goes, I should ask my buddies, the Coens, if they wanna do this.

• 57:38David Sims?

  I've never seen that movie.

• 57:40Griffin Newman?

  I like it.

• 57:40David Sims?

  Holly Hunter calls it a very self-conscious movie.

• 57:44Griffin Newman?

  She's not wrong.

• 57:45David Sims?

  Uh, but not in a negative way.

• 57:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 57:49David Sims?

  She says Joel and Ethan function without their egos, or maybe their egos are so big, they're completely secure with anyone who disagrees with them. Either way.

• 57:55Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 57:56David Sims?

  Frances McDormand's take is, I can't imagine Joel ever making a movie where that was actor oriented. Like a Sophie's Choice, where you set up the camera and two actors work together. He sets up the mood, he talks about rhythm. Like, I, she means that, I think. She's talking about her husband, of course.

• 58:11Griffin Newman?

  She loves him and she's worked with him many, many times.

• 58:13David Sims?

  Right, but she means that in a sort of like, that's what he does, right? Like, you know, if you want this experience, you're not going to get it at the Coen Brothers shop.

• 58:19Speaker 04

  They're animators in a way. You know, we talked about this as a cartoon, they think of, they're, they're creating a visual and emotional landscape that has timing and performances that they have pre-vised.

• 58:31Griffin Newman?

  It's similar to Wes Anderson, where it's not like, hey, actors, what are you thinking? Let's do a blocking rehearsal and based on what you do, I will adjust and figure out how to film this. They're like, here's my movie and if I hired you because I trust you.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:44Griffin Newman?

  And I know you're going to figure out how to bring humanity to this, but that's your job.

• 58:48Speaker 04

  Uh, speaking of that.

• 58:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 04

  The, the big jolt of electricity that I had re-watching, I've seen this movie many times.

• 58:53Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 58:54Speaker 04

  And it is a movie that, one of the, my wife is a whole, you mean, and I both love movies. We share a lot of taste.

• 59:02Griffin Newman?

  Humble ground.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  But she doesn't like to watch movies a lot.

• 59:06Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 59:06Speaker 04

  Because they take time.

• 59:07Griffin Newman?

  You love watching them. You will text us once a week and go, guys, if I have three free hours, what should I see?

• 59:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:12Griffin Newman?

  This afternoon?

• 59:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:13Griffin Newman?

  Or what should I rent?

• 59:13Speaker 04

  And you know, like, it's just one of those things where it's like, do you want to watch something? I don't care to put anything on in the background, but there are a couple of movies where if I put it on, she'll tune right in. She's like, I think I've seen this movie 12 times and I'll watch it another 12.

• 59:24David Sims?

  It's, it's, uh, an easy, easy, easy movie to re-watch.

• 59:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:28David Sims?

  Yeah, like, right. You don't put this on and go like, oh, I'm so exhausted by racing.

• 59:33Griffin Newman?

  I had a long day yesterday. I got home late.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  It's invigorating.

• 59:37Griffin Newman?

  And I was just like, I'm thrilled to spool this movie up at 11:30 PM.

• 59:41Speaker 04

  But the jolt of electricity that, that, uh, hit me.

• 59:44Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 59:45Speaker 04

  This time watching was, oh, this is Wes Anderson before Wes Anderson.

• 59:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 59:51Speaker 04

  Uh, and I had never thought of that, but I'm sure this is very obvious to everybody. But this is a decade before Rushmore.

• 59:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 04

  And it's very, I mean, Wes Anderson has his own set of influences, his own set of preoccupations. Obviously, I don't want to take any agency away from Wes Anderson, but it's like, there is a shared DNA, obviously.

• 1:00:12Griffin Newman?

  Yes, and I think same to Shaun of the Dead. There is like, right, a generation of guys who are coming up like 10 years after who see this movie and it blows their mind.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  It's with them.

• 1:00:21Griffin Newman?

  And especially making a comedy that is this visual.

• 1:00:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Griffin Newman?

  I mean, that's the way Edgar Wright describes it, seeing it and going like, if you can make a comedy look like this, then why aren't all comedies like this? And then he said the first time he directed something, he was like, oh, I get why they're not all like this now. It's impossible and it requires you being a genius with the best collaborators in the world.

• 1:00:41Speaker 04

  And it also goes against, I mean, it is a completely different kind of comedy that was certainly now and certainly then as well. There is no, we're talking about it, there's no improvisation.

• 1:00:50Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:00:51Speaker 04

  There's no like, yeah, let's just take a fun, a fun run at this one.

• 1:00:54Griffin Newman?

  This movie does not have many conventional jokes, even in a way that later corn films do.

• 1:00:59David Sims?

  Stuff like the balloon line, that's kind of a conventional-ish joke, but yeah, it's not a setup punchline kind of movie by and large.

• 1:01:07Speaker 04

  It's a joke in the sense that it's a silly thing that's sad.

• 1:01:10Griffin Newman?

  It's moments.

• 1:01:10David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Griffin Newman?

  That, that aren't like about build up payoff, which so much of comedy is, you know?

• 1:01:17Speaker 04

  Wish I knew something about it.

• 1:01:20Griffin Newman?

  Join the club.

• 1:01:21Speaker 04

  Only build up, someday payoff.

• 1:01:23Griffin Newman?

  I think there is something, we've, we've been talking around this a little bit, right?

• 1:01:26Speaker 04

  Okay, here we go.

• 1:01:27Griffin Newman?

  But that, this is sort of like the first generation of filmmakers who grew up on Looney Tunes and such. Where it's impacting their work.

• 1:01:36Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:01:37Griffin Newman?

  There are people who are working simultaneously and people like Frank Tashlin, who started out as a Looney Tunes director and then became a live action director, who then works with Jerry Lewis, which then affects Jerry Lewis's directing style when he starts making stuff, which of course then radicalizes the French, like bleeds out in all this way, right? But here's like the first generation of directors who grew up watching this stuff and there's the bizarre visual language of like manic 40s, 50s, 60s theatrical short cartoons, baked into their brains.

• 1:02:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:02:09Griffin Newman?

  Now, those things could do anything because they used a fucking pencil, right? And you could draw anything you imagined, but traditional animation was very limited in terms of camera movement. It was almost impossible to do. Disney created the multiplane camera, which was to be able to replicate the idea of camera movement within animation. It was mostly used for establishing shots. Right. Wasn't really used for action or dialogue scenes, or anything that was really moving the plot forward.

• 1:02:34Griffin Newman?

  It feels like there are these three movies, like George Miller with Mad Max, Sam Raimi with Evil Dead, and Blood Simple with the Coens, that are all them trying to infuse a little bit of that sensibility into something that's a little more dramatic. And then on the second movies, they all, with the confidence under their wings heightened, and go like, "I'm gonna try to make a live-action cartoon. I wanna capture the way those Looney Tunes feel." And the big key to all three of them, and they talk about how influential Road Warrior was on them, and obviously watching Raimi do this stuff as their friend and working with him. Yeah. And seeing how it could be done.

• 1:03:14Griffin Newman?

  And this movie has so much fucking Road Warrior in it. Oh, Road Warrior, yeah, I was both, and Raimi too, obviously. But I think there's something to all three of these director-director teams. Cracking the code on, how do you use the camera, the thing that animation can't do, to convey the energy of what animation can do in character, right? And in reality. And like, those three movies unlock something in terms of like, this is how you can use the camera to make you feel action in a way that no one has before, horror in a way that no one has before, comedy in a way that no one has before. The magic of those movies is all three of them have elements of the other bleeding into them. Right.

• 1:03:58Griffin Newman?

  But you just watch this and you're like, some of the funniest jokes in this movie are just that this is shot that way. And they know that, it's not by accident. I get you, yeah, yeah. And a lot of that is Sonnenfeld, who like, you know, you look at the early part of his career, one of the few guys to have any level of actual high-level success, jumping from DP to director. Right. And the movies, at least the first five or six, that are so good that he directed and didn't shoot, you can see in execution, everything he kind of like, what he, the code he cracked with the Coens of, what's the funniest lens? What's the funniest place to put a camera in relation to an actor? What's the funniest camera movement? Right.

• 1:04:41Griffin Newman?

  And I think his innate sense of humor really helped them in that way, understand how to translate that into a language.

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:04:48Griffin Newman?

  That's my spiel.

• 1:04:49Speaker 04

  Put the camera under the bed, put the camera under the crib.

• 1:04:52Griffin Newman?

  Funny.

• 1:04:52Speaker 04

  Have a baby crawling towards the lens.

• 1:04:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 04

  It's baby Herman before baby Herman, or around the same time, actually, I think.

• 1:04:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:59Speaker 04

  Right?

• 1:04:59Griffin Newman?

  Baby Herman's the following year. Eighties were big for babies.

• 1:05:02Speaker 04

  And then, and then the, and then have, and then put the, the, the camera under the car and have Nicolas Cage crawl towards it like a baby.

• 1:05:08Griffin Newman?

  Like a baby.

• 1:05:08Speaker 04

  And be pulled back by his awful evil doppelganger.

• 1:05:11Griffin Newman?

  Good.

• 1:05:12David Sims?

  John Goodman.

• 1:05:13Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Speaker 04

  John Goodman. I'm gonna say this. He's a good, not just a good man, a good actor.

• 1:05:17Griffin Newman?

  John's a great man.

• 1:05:18David Sims?

  Great actor.

• 1:05:19Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:05:20David Sims?

  But.

• 1:05:20Speaker 04

  I'll hear your argument.

• 1:05:22David Sims?

  Obviously, he's in, you know, he's got small roles in movies.

• 1:05:26Griffin Newman?

  Revenge of the Nerds.

• 1:05:26David Sims?

  Eighty-three, like Revenge of the Nerds, whatever, but True Stories, which is the year before, which is a great, great movie. Obviously somewhat undersung at the time, I feel like.

• 1:05:34Griffin Newman?

  Astounding in that.

• 1:05:35Speaker 04

  And if it's sung at all, it's, it's sung with, with the lyrics of Meow Meow.

• 1:05:41Speaker 04

  Cause John Goodman did that in True Stories when he's trying to remember a song. He goes, meow, meow, meow, meow. And I've, that was another great moment in my life when I saw that happen.

• 1:05:50David Sims?

  Um, so True Stories is the year before Raising Arizona, but the Coens are very like definitive, like we chose him before True Stories was shot.

• 1:05:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58David Sims?

  Like, they are basically like, we truly discovered John Goodman. He came to our.

• 1:06:03Speaker 04

  Fuck you, David Byrne.

• 1:06:04Griffin Newman?

  Parallel thinking.

• 1:06:05David Sims?

  Right. He came to our set. And it is funny because, right, True Stories is, is Texas and this is Arizona, but both kind of tales of like lonely souls on the prairie. You know what I mean? Like that, they do have somewhat similar energies, even though True Stories is much less cartoony, I guess.

• 1:06:21Speaker 04

  Although.

• 1:06:21David Sims?

  More emo. Yeah.

• 1:06:23Griffin Newman?

  It is cartoony in a lot of ways. Yeah.

• 1:06:25Speaker 04

  True Stories is like based on a bunch of National Enquirer articles, I believe, was sort of the.

• 1:06:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and sort of the idea of those types of articles.

• 1:06:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Griffin Newman?

  As much as actual articles.

• 1:06:35Speaker 04

  But they both sat in a, a, a very established sort of cultural moment of kitschy southwestern Americana, which in, in, infected a lot of music and visuals and film at the time.

• 1:06:49Griffin Newman?

  We were talking about this.

• 1:06:50Speaker 04

  Fancy smarty pants, hipstery type stuff.

• 1:06:52Griffin Newman?

  Oh, very smart.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  Like, it was fun to exoticize, for, for big city folk to exoticize.

• 1:06:57David Sims?

  The American Southwest in particular.

• 1:06:59Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:07:00David Sims?

  And while it is not, in my opinion, offensive.

• 1:07:03Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:07:03David Sims?

  They are doing an invented dialect that does not exist.

• 1:07:06Griffin Newman?

  Yes, it's not.

• 1:07:07David Sims?

  It is a, it is a kind of funny exoticization.

• 1:07:11Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:07:11David Sims?

  Of a ki- it's a ki- it's a char- it's a cartoon. They're cartoon characters.

• 1:07:15Griffin Newman?

  And I even think, I could see people being like, this movie is making fun of, uh, did H.I. McDonough by saying, why is this idiot having these sort of like faux literary profound thoughts, right?

• 1:07:28David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:29Griffin Newman?

  That it's like a punching down of like, wouldn't it be funny if this dumb yokel?

• 1:07:33David Sims?

  Has this incredibly like.

• 1:07:35Griffin Newman?

  But I think it's the opposite where they're just like.

• 1:07:37David Sims?

  Way of speaking.

• 1:07:38Griffin Newman?

  The beauty of this guy having all of this.

• 1:07:40David Sims?

  Rocky, a barren place where my seed could find no purchase.

• 1:07:43Griffin Newman?

  Right, they're like, it is, it is an act of.

• 1:07:47David Sims?

  Yeah, because rural people can't be smart at all.

• 1:07:49Griffin Newman?

  Right, right. It's, I think the implication is they're making comedy out of how unlikely that is. Whereas I think their thing is, imagine a guy like this who no one takes seriously. And what if there's like a universe of emotion and thought inside of him?

• 1:08:00David Sims?

  I feel like Moonstruck, this, and Wild at Heart.

• 1:08:04Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:04David Sims?

  I know he's also got like Vampire's Kiss and Valley Girl. He's got other iconic movies of this year. But those three, which eighty-seven, eighty-seven, ninety.

• 1:08:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11David Sims?

  He's doing the same thing in all three where he's like, yeah. He's kind of got the gift of the gab in this weird supernatural way about it, right? He seems like salt to the earth or diamond in the rough or something, but then he'll, he'll monologue in this romantic sincere way that you can't believe it's coming out of this wackado's mouth.

• 1:08:27Griffin Newman?

  The wa- the waters run deep.

• 1:08:28David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, he's so good.

• 1:08:31David Sims?

  He is so good.

• 1:08:33Griffin Newman?

  Uh, here's a Goodman thing I want to say before we talk about Cage a little more. We were doing prep for the King Ralph Show. And you made a point that has stuck with me as we've been talking about Goodman for months now.

• 1:08:43David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:08:43Griffin Newman?

  A year of Goodman for us on this podcast.

• 1:08:46David Sims?

  Year of Goodman, right.

• 1:08:47Griffin Newman?

  Uh, that he so seamlessly, quietly, in such an unshowy way, uh, adjusts his dialect around wherever he's playing.

• 1:08:58David Sims?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:58Griffin Newman?

  That you always kind of when watching any movie go like, right, I guess John Goodman is from Arizona, right?

• 1:09:03David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 1:09:04Griffin Newman?

  Where you're like, he, for a guy you don't think of as being like, oh, he's like an accent guy. He's a guy who transforms. He does voices or whatever. He just like very, very subtly but accurately off the cuff adjusts to wherever the character he's playing is from.

• 1:09:20David Sims?

  Um, Missourin, of course, in, uh, by birth or whatever.

• 1:09:23Speaker 04

  But you can be from anywhere.

• 1:09:24Griffin Newman?

  You buy, you buy him in the bayou, you buy him in the Midwest.

• 1:09:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:28Griffin Newman?

  You buy him as a city guy, you know, a tough talker.

• 1:09:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. You, you, you, you buy him when he's eating fried chicken with you in a open field and he's about to beat you up.

• 1:09:37Griffin Newman?

  Smacks you with a big old branch.

• 1:09:38David Sims?

  What if he wanted to tell you to go fuck yourself, but kind of with like, you know, like adding in a little pun?

• 1:09:45Griffin Newman?

  I think he would need to cross-reference with a kind of brash, old-school New York Hollywood producer.

• 1:09:51David Sims?

  Old-school Hollywood.

• 1:09:52Griffin Newman?

  They'd have to build a room together, batting ideas back and forth.

• 1:09:55Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm at a complete loss as to what they're talking about in this. I mean, what if he was a king? What if? Of England? What if John Goodman was the king? Have you ever considered that?

• 1:10:04Griffin Newman?

  One of the most profound questions.

• 1:10:05Speaker 04

  By the way, Ben, nice to see you over there. It's great to see you. Yeah. Always a pleasure to have you on the pod. Thanks for the Friendly's hat, by the way. You're so welcome. I should have worn it today. I've, I, I forgot.

• 1:10:14Griffin Newman?

  It's okay. Arrival podcast.

• 1:10:16Speaker 04

  It's true.

• 1:10:16Griffin Newman?

  Hollywood hamper.

• 1:10:17Speaker 04

  But I'm just gonna say, I want to, I want to say to the listeners, uh, Ben, send me a Friendly's hat. And I'm gonna just say, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Jesus cock, that's a hot hat.

• 1:10:28David Sims?

  Hell, yeah. Damn it, I gotta, I gotta clip that, I gotta use that quote. I really do.

• 1:10:33Griffin Newman?

  You need it as a banner on top of the side.

• 1:10:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'd like to see it embroidered on the back over the ponytail hole in the back of the adjustable, uh, cap. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:10:41David Sims?

  I really like that.

• 1:10:42Speaker 04

  That's a hot hat.

• 1:10:43David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Speaker 04

  Sims, take it.

• 1:10:44Griffin Newman?

  What year is Valley Girl?

• 1:10:47David Sims?

  Valley Girl is pretty early in his career. It's, uh, eighty-three.

• 1:10:51Griffin Newman?

  Okay, and he's done, at this point, a couple of the Coppola movies.

• 1:10:54David Sims?

  He's in Rumble Fish and Cotton Club. He's in Birdie.

• 1:10:57Griffin Newman?

  Has Peggy Sue not happened yet?

• 1:10:58David Sims?

  Peggy Sue is the year before.

• 1:10:59Griffin Newman?

  She's not yet married.

• 1:11:00David Sims?

  Eighty-six, uh, which, uh, he is good in, in like a sort of broad, you know, role, but he's good.

• 1:11:06Griffin Newman?

  I think he is phenomenal in that movie.

• 1:11:09David Sims?

  I have not seen that movie since I was a teenager. I mostly remember Kathleen, obviously.

• 1:11:13Griffin Newman?

  I think he's truly phenomenal, but it's, it's the classic tale of like Coppola is like, Nick, I got great news for you. I've convinced the studio to hire you for this part. I've been giving you these little side showy character parts. But you're the romantic lead of this movie.

• 1:11:29David Sims?

  Nick, I got good news for you. Finally, in Hollywood, nepotism works.

• 1:11:32Griffin Newman?

  Yes, and he reads the script and is like, I find this character boring. I don't want to do it.

• 1:11:36David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:11:37Griffin Newman?

  And Coppola is like, what the fuck are you talking about? And he was like, okay.

• 1:11:41David Sims?

  I have like moved heaven and earth here.

• 1:11:42Griffin Newman?

  Right, let me go to the lab and see if I can come up with a good take. And he gets back to Coppola and he's like, I'm gonna play him like Poki from Gummy. And Coppola's like, the fuck are you talking about? But it works, it's genius. It's like one of the earliest examples of Cage in a sort of leading man role, taking the least conventional route to something that then ends up affecting in a genuine way.

• 1:12:03David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:03Griffin Newman?

  And hitting on real emotions and real thoughts, in my opinion. Uh, but I do think that's kind of a turnkey for him. I also think you talk about the super eight feeling, right?

• 1:12:11David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Griffin Newman?

  There is obviously the Coppola family dynasty, you know, the mountain of nepotism that is that family. But also, as he's always quick to call out, he was the son of the black sheep in the family.

• 1:12:23David Sims?

  True.

• 1:12:23Griffin Newman?

  Like, he was the son of the one guy who kinda didn't figure it out and had the same aspirations in the entertainment industry, as did his mother as well. And so obviously, he was close to the cousins who were going on to massive success.

• 1:12:37David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:12:37Griffin Newman?

  But he was like, there was always this energy of like, we're the fuck upside of the family. And they all almost treated me with a bit of pity.

• 1:12:44David Sims?

  It's like he had been placed in a cage.

• 1:12:46Griffin Newman?

  A Nicholas Cage.

• 1:12:49David Sims?

  Um, over to you, David. The film shot for 13 weeks, certainly wouldn't, a $6 million movie these days would not be getting a 13 week shoot, I don't think.

• 1:12:58Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 1:12:58David Sims?

  Uh, in Arizona, uh, Sonnenfeld, Barry Sonnenfeld, of course, the cinematographer here. I feel like, I mean, as great a job as he does on Blood Simple, this is his like a calling card movie.

• 1:13:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10David Sims?

  And as I was saying to my wife last night, who's seen it before, but I was just like, everything about this movie is good, but the what, the way the camera moves was so bananas. Like, people were just like, I don't understand how they did this.

• 1:13:20Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and Miller's Crossing is a beautiful looking movie, right? But it's him doing a much more kind of conventional.

• 1:13:26David Sims?

  Constrained.

• 1:13:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and he's doing other stuff.

• 1:13:29David Sims?

  Beautifully constrained.

• 1:13:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, great. Is there another stuff in this era, like when Harry Met Sally, that is also like gorgeously lensed? But this is the Colin Farrell movie that, yes, I think like makes people trust. He probably could direct as well. And his entire directing career is really built off of the language he establishes in this movie.

• 1:13:47David Sims?

  Uh, like, right, you see Addams Family and Men in Black in this movie much more than you do in.

• 1:13:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, sure, all of it, yeah.

• 1:13:55David Sims?

  They're all, Sonnenfeld says, like, they're all a little nervous. They got a real budget this time. Like, this is nerve wracking. Like, you don't want to fuck this up in the same way of Blood Simple, the different way Blood Simple's just like, eh. You know, we'll see if anyone likes this.

• 1:14:09David Sims?

  Big note, they got at the test screenings, uh, they didn't like the rabbit blowing up.

• 1:14:14Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 1:14:14Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:14:15David Sims?

  Uh, I think this is something that Coens run into once in a while where they're like, why do you guys care about us wounding animals?

• 1:14:20Griffin Newman?

  And it's like. Squeezing a frog.

• 1:14:21David Sims?

  That's the number one thing.

• 1:14:23Speaker 04

  They didn't care about the lizard being shot off the rock?

• 1:14:26David Sims?

  Maybe they cared about that, too.

• 1:14:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:28Speaker 04

  For all we know, that rabbit ran away as soon as that grenade hit the ground. We don't know.

• 1:14:32Griffin Newman?

  You're right, though. It is funny.

• 1:14:33Speaker 04

  It's a waskily rabbit.

• 1:14:34Griffin Newman?

  A waskily wabbit.

• 1:14:35David Sims?

  Uh, they, excuse me, you're right. They do work with Carter Burwell again, of course, you know, continuing, obviously, one of the greatest collaborators. But initially, they were like, this movie might not be groovy enough for you, which is, I don't know what that means exactly.

• 1:14:47Griffin Newman?

  He's a rock and roll guy.

• 1:14:48David Sims?

  Burwell said the score is improvised using household objects like peanut butter jars and vacuum cleaner hoses. That's fun.

• 1:14:54Griffin Newman?

  Fucking, yeah.

• 1:14:55David Sims?

  Ben? And then, of course, the yodeling.

• 1:14:57Griffin Newman?

  What?

• 1:14:58Speaker 04

  Improvised score using peanut butter jars? No reaction from you?

• 1:15:02Speaker 05

  I mean, I love it. I love the inventiveness.

• 1:15:05Griffin Newman?

  Sounds cool as hell.

• 1:15:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, it does.

• 1:15:07Speaker 04

  He's too busy ordering some hot hats.

• 1:15:09David Sims?

  And, uh. The, uh, an honest to goodness oaky named John Crowder did the yodeling.

• 1:15:16Speaker 04

  Honest to goodness, yeah.

• 1:15:19Griffin Newman?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:15:19Speaker 04

  I always thought that it was Pete Seeger, but it's not. Pete Seeger's on the soundtrack somewhere, but.

• 1:15:24David Sims?

  Yeah, I love Pete Seeger.

• 1:15:26Speaker 04

  But Carter Burwell, I mean. One of the only composers where I will just listen to the soundtrack. Uh, John Williams level, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of creating mood, tension, uh, world.

• 1:15:40Griffin Newman?

  They feel like wordless operas even listen to on their own. What is your ringtone?

• 1:15:45Speaker 04

  It's the theme from, uh, Tootsie. Peter Bishop, something's telling me it must be you.

• 1:15:49Griffin Newman?

  That is very funny and I can't believe I have never witnessed this go off.

• 1:15:55Speaker 04

  Well, that's because I only, it's only keyed to one person in my life.

• 1:15:59Griffin Newman?

  Your wife?

• 1:16:00Speaker 04

  Who is a whole human being gonna run right and she'll be, remain unnamed.

• 1:16:03Griffin Newman?

  A whole brag. You know what is really funny that I think about a tremendous amount? Weird that that movie's called Tootsie.

• 1:16:12Speaker 04

  Oh, uh, she said it was a pocket dial, by the way. So everything's fine.

• 1:16:15David Sims?

  We have talked about that a billion times.

• 1:16:16Griffin Newman?

  It's not a character name. It's one of like 40 nicknames they call her.

• 1:16:20Speaker 04

  I was just listening to this podcast and you, and you said that.

• 1:16:22Griffin Newman?

  Whatever, move on.

• 1:16:22David Sims?

  I just want to say also for the record that I was distracted, yes, but I was reading Randall Tex Cobb's Wikipedia.

• 1:16:30Speaker 04

  He's quite a character.

• 1:16:31David Sims?

  Here's the thing about him. He was a professional fighter.

• 1:16:34Speaker 04

  Well, he had a famous chin.

• 1:16:35Griffin Newman?

  Famous chin. In many ways.

• 1:16:37David Sims?

  And I could kind of tell by just his vibe.

• 1:16:40Speaker 04

  He was, he was a, a professional kickboxer in the seventies.

• 1:16:44David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Speaker 04

  And yeah, famous chin that often paradoxically overshadowed his incredible nose.

• 1:16:51Griffin Newman?

  He has quoted those.

• 1:16:52Speaker 04

  As though he were doing a headstand.

• 1:16:55Speaker 04

  Cause that's how the sun would cast a shadow. But you see what I mean? That nose.

• 1:16:58Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:16:58Speaker 04

  And I don't know, were you gonna talk about him later?

• 1:17:02Griffin Newman?

  I mean, we must talk about him.

• 1:17:03David Sims?

  I'm sure we'll talk about Randall Tex Cobb.

• 1:17:05Speaker 04

  Are we putting a pin in Randall Tex Cobb?

• 1:17:07David Sims?

  Or pulling a pin out?

• 1:17:09Speaker 04

  There we go. We're blowing up. We'll blow up this rabbit later.

• 1:17:12Griffin Newman?

  Incredible Joel quote about Randall Tex Cobb. He's less an actor than a force of nature. Dot, dot, dot. I don't know if I'd rush headlong into employing him for a future film.

• 1:17:23Speaker 04

  Weirdly, that's the only way you can employ him.

• 1:17:25David Sims?

  This does sound like a film.

• 1:17:26Speaker 04

  You have to headbutt him five times before he agrees to be in the movie.

• 1:17:29David Sims?

  This film has Holly Hunter and John Goodman and Frances McDormand.

• 1:17:32Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:17:32David Sims?

  Lifetime like Coen folk, right? But it also does have Nicolas Cage and Randall Tex Cobb where they're like, once was fine.

• 1:17:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:42David Sims?

  We let the genie out of the bottle and we did not try to recapture it.

• 1:17:45Griffin Newman?

  Well, even M M Walsh, who appears in this and it's his final.

• 1:17:48David Sims?

  A tiny role, yes.

• 1:17:50Griffin Newman?

  Where he always had this kind of chip on his shoulder of like, why didn't they keep hiring me?

• 1:17:53David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:17:54Griffin Newman?

  And their line was like, he was difficult.

• 1:17:55David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:17:56Griffin Newman?

  We found our people who are very simpatico. And when you find a Goodman or a Hunter, you hold on to them forever.

• 1:18:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, I mean, it really does. It would say something to you as an actor if you do not get invited back because so many people are getting invited back.

• 1:18:09Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:18:11Speaker 04

  And of course, as we alluded to, the wonderful Trey Wilson was not invited back because he died tragically at a young age. I would have hoped that they would use him again.

• 1:18:20Griffin Newman?

  Uh, yes. Uh, he was supposed to be the Albert Finney part in Miller's Crossing and died so shortly before production.

• 1:18:27David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:18:28Griffin Newman?

  That.

• 1:18:28David Sims?

  Finney replaces.

• 1:18:28Griffin Newman?

  Finney replaces him like a week before the movie starts.

• 1:18:31Speaker 04

  Oh, well, then I'm glad he died.

• 1:18:32Griffin Newman?

  That was supposed to be.

• 1:18:33David Sims?

  Sorry, I don't mean it that way.

• 1:18:33Griffin Newman?

  But also clearly that was them being like, we want to give this guy like a grand.

• 1:18:38David Sims?

  Didn't mean that the way it came out. That was a pretty brutal reaction.

• 1:18:43Griffin Newman?

  It was tough.

• 1:18:44David Sims?

  And Finney is incredible in Miller's Crossing.

• 1:18:46Speaker 04

  I knew what I was saying when I said it. And I think I've been appropriately respectful of the, of the talent of Trey Wilson, whose performance in this movie is outstanding.

• 1:18:56Griffin Newman?

  And that clearly.

• 1:18:57David Sims?

  He's very good.

• 1:18:57Griffin Newman?

  A reflection that they were like, you know what we should do? We should write like a fucking media ass role for Trey Wilson.

• 1:19:03David Sims?

  Because he really crushes the final scene of the film, which is very important to this film, like, sort of, I don't know. Feeling like more than a confection.

• 1:19:12Speaker 04

  Everyone at the time who said that they were not human, that they were.

• 1:19:18David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:19:18Speaker 04

  That they were arch.

• 1:19:19David Sims?

  They walk out a few minutes before the movie.

• 1:19:20Speaker 04

  That they were making a movie about movies or they're making an imitation Looney Tune.

• 1:19:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Speaker 04

  I mean, what they were making an imitation Looney Tune, but then they took their Yosemite Sam and made him the most heartfelt.

• 1:19:32Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:19:32Speaker 04

  Voice of morality in the film.

• 1:19:35Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:19:35Speaker 04

  That sets them on the proper path at the end of the movie, in those places.

• 1:19:38Griffin Newman?

  How could anyone who isn't a humanist land there, you know, and put that in your movie?

• 1:19:45Speaker 04

  And that, I mean, you know, when I think about, look, I, I am, I adore Wes Anderson. Very, very important movie maker to me. I love so many of those movies.

• 1:19:55Griffin Newman?

  A humble brag.

• 1:19:57Speaker 04

  That I like him.

• 1:19:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay, fair enough.

• 1:19:59Griffin Newman?

  And that he's his own person, his own right.

• 1:20:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Griffin Newman?

  A whole person.

• 1:20:02Speaker 04

  But I, but I, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about. You know, what are the differences between the Coens' sense of manner and style? And Wes Anderson's? Wes Anderson had a lot more, I mean, we're talking about directors that create very specific visual compositions.

• 1:20:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:22Speaker 04

  That sometimes they're, I mean, the Coens are, in a way, they initiated meta into cinema in the sense that they were making homages to other kinds of movies.

• 1:20:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And the type of movie that constantly reminds you that it is a movie.

• 1:20:38Speaker 04

  That it is a movie, that we're referencing Preston Sturges in the Looney Tunes, or we're gonna make a gangster film, or we're gonna make this Barton Fink movie, which is itself about movies, that aboutness that so many people take as being cold.

• 1:20:52Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:20:53Speaker 04

  And reserved.

• 1:20:54Griffin Newman?

  And even the camera joke in Blood Simple, where the camera is tracking along the bar and then has to jump up over the passed out patron.

• 1:21:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Griffin Newman?

  Is a joke that like, to some people goes like, holy shit, who the fuck are these guys? And to other people, you're like, why are you puncturing the reality of this movie?

• 1:21:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or you don't even see it.

• 1:21:12Griffin Newman?

  You're making a thriller.

• 1:21:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Griffin Newman?

  And now you're making a joke that's like, you guys know this is a movie, right? We're gonna make a joke about your understanding of how a camera moves.

• 1:21:20Speaker 04

  And you know, Wes Anderson movies have profound human emotion in them as well. And my favorite of his is Moonrise Kingdom, because I think so much of Wes Anderson's movies are preoccupations with lost childhood, obviously. But I don't, like, for me, this performance by Trey Wilson at the end really, like, it grounded and humanized everything that had been going on.

• 1:21:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:43Speaker 04

  It represented a theme of real emotion.

• 1:21:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Speaker 04

  But just to be able to take that moment and move so seamlessly and not, the word I'm looking for, like, they weren't creating a contradiction.

• 1:21:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Speaker 04

  Like, their movement between highly stylized and mannered and then highly human and naturalistic was so beautifully done there.

• 1:22:06Griffin Newman?

  Something's happening within the same frame, within the same scene.

• 1:22:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you know, and another reason people get a hard time getting a handle on them, it's like, by now, you know exactly what a Wes Anderson movie looks and feels like.

• 1:22:16Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:22:17Speaker 04

  But with a Coen Brothers movie, you never knew.

• 1:22:18Griffin Newman?

  They can mix it up a lot.

• 1:22:20Speaker 04

  And they would do it on purpose.

• 1:22:21Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:22:22Speaker 04

  And they'd be virtuosic at every level. This is, this sounds like I'm picking winners and losers, like the, like the federal government or something.

• 1:22:27Griffin Newman?

  Well, I know.

• 1:22:28Speaker 04

  But I mean, I just hadn't really appreciated. What they, what this movie and what the Coens did in terms of 90s cinema.

• 1:22:36Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:22:37Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? Like, first of all, making a movie that could be about,

• 1:22:42Speaker 04

  or could, could be imitating cartoons and Preston Sturgis and everything else. The, the stylistic or the narrative loop-de-loop that they do in this movie and in other movies. There's no pulp fiction without that. Yeah, you know?

• 1:22:55Griffin Newman?

  Agreed. Um, another movie that banks on you understanding this is a movie.

• 1:23:00Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:23:00Griffin Newman?

  And playing on your knowledge of how movies work and what they should or shouldn't be doing.

• 1:23:04Speaker 04

  And, you know, meta was my language in the 90s. And it's, and if you know anything about my work, mostly I'm just riffing on movies and television shows that I've seen. You know what I mean? And I, I hate to say that maybe the Coen brothers uh, uh, uh, uh, made that habit respectable for me for a period of time.

• 1:23:21Griffin Newman?

  Perhaps.

• 1:23:21Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? But I do think it's respectable. I mean, all we do is make things about the things that we love.

• 1:23:26Griffin Newman?

  I mean, the, the, look at the room we are in and the career that we have built for ourselves.

• 1:23:31Speaker 04

  The other thing is that while this movie has a lot of babies in it.

• 1:23:34Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:35Speaker 04

  It is not about lost childhood, it's about parenthood and the fear of becoming a parent.

• 1:23:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I also think there's something interesting to, like Wes Anderson doesn't talk about his childhood much. He doesn't talk about his relationship with his father when he's like doing press.

• 1:23:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:23:51Griffin Newman?

  Those things are kind of mysterious and yet you watch his movies and you're like, I understand that there is stuff that he is still working through, right?

• 1:23:59Speaker 04

  It's weird because you, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

• 1:24:01Griffin Newman?

  Even if I can't identify exactly what his experiences are in the same way that like everyone from the beginning knew. Spielberg's parents got divorced and he never got over it.

• 1:24:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:24:08Griffin Newman?

  And it took a while for us to get more, a fuller picture of what happened there.

• 1:24:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:24:12Griffin Newman?

  It was like, there's a thing here. I just like, I realized the other day, like, I know fucking nothing about Wes Anderson's dad. And yet we're all like, well, we understand the stuff that he's still fixated on and needing to push through.

• 1:24:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:24:26Griffin Newman?

  And the Coens, it is a lot more oblique of like, what made you want to make this now? And is this truly just you riffing on some other genre, a top, a type of movie you like? Or is there some, um, uh, animating ideal within this that came out of some personal feeling? Or experience? And especially because they're two separate people. It is even harder to identify that sometimes.

• 1:24:49Speaker 04

  Yes, their only real thing is they wanted to do something completely the opposite from Blood Simple.

• 1:24:58Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 1:24:58David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:59Griffin Newman?

  This episode is brought to you by XYZ Films and the acclaimed new documentary, Capturing Bigfoot.

• 1:25:04David Sims?

  Hmm.

• 1:25:05Griffin Newman?

  On October 20th, 1967, Roger Patterson captured 59 seconds of film showing a creature walking through the Northern California woods. I wonder if you can log that on Letterboxd?

• 1:25:15David Sims?

  It is an iconic video.

• 1:25:17Griffin Newman?

  Footage that became the most analyzed and debated in history. Fifty-nine years later, a reel of 16-millimeter film discovered in a safe changes everything.

• 1:25:26David Sims?

  Wow.

• 1:25:26Griffin Newman?

  Capturing Bigfoot reveals the untold story behind the world's greatest mystery, told for the first time by Patterson's own son and the people who were there. This is a story about family legacy, broken friendships, and how far people will go to protect a secret.

• 1:25:40David Sims?

  Of course, you got the classic, what they call Patterson Gimlin film everyone knows, of Bigfoot out in the woods, like the famous Bigfoot picture. This has other stuff shot by him that no one's ever seen. That's what makes this movie different.

• 1:25:51Griffin Newman?

  But we're also talking brand-new 4K scans of the original film taken from the Patterson family archives that some historians have called the best rendering of the footage ever seen.

• 1:26:00David Sims?

  I feel like we've all seen that footage as like grainy.

• 1:26:03Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:26:03David Sims?

  You know, that you see, you know, whatever, you see it in a documentary for two seconds. But this is restoring it and making it look much more clear.

• 1:26:10Griffin Newman?

  There's also a companion podcast, the Capturing Bigfoot Podcast, which goes deeper into the legend and lore of Bigfoot and the Patterson Gimlin film, featuring weekly episodes with experts in cryptozoology, urban legends, and filmmaking.

• 1:26:24David Sims?

  I'm something of an expert in cryptozoology.

• 1:26:26Griffin Newman?

  Well, of course, yes, but that's more of a hobby.

• 1:26:28David Sims?

  Yeah, this podcast, Capturing Bigfoot Podcast, is hosted by the director of the film, Mark Evans, and it's available for free on YouTube and Spotify with exclusive episodes and content available on Patreon to members of the Capturing Bigfoot Society.

• 1:26:44Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Capturing Bigfoot is now available to rent or own on Amazon Prime Video. Learn more about Capturing Bigfoot at capturingbigfoot.com.

• 1:27:02Speaker 06

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market. Love the crown molding. Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile. Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet. No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen. No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you. Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.

• 1:27:26Speaker 04

  Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.

• 1:27:34David Sims?

  This film is about H.I. Hi.

• 1:27:37Griffin Newman?

  McDonough.

• 1:27:38David Sims?

  Herbert I. McDonough. A convenience store robber by trade, I guess.

• 1:27:43Griffin Newman?

  A low level.

• 1:27:44Speaker 04

  They have a name for him, and it's recidivism.

• 1:27:47David Sims?

  Yes. Uh, who meets Ed, Edwina McDonough, when she takes his mugshot over and over again.

• 1:27:54Griffin Newman?

  Little firecracker.

• 1:27:55David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:27:56Griffin Newman?

  Ben. They basically have three meet-cutes.

• 1:27:58Speaker 04

  The plot of the movie they're talking about.

• 1:27:59Griffin Newman?

  Over the course of.

• 1:28:01David Sims?

  Okay, great.

• 1:28:02Griffin Newman?

  The three arrests you witnessed?

• 1:28:04David Sims?

  We got to it. It's an hour and 20 minutes.

• 1:28:13Griffin Newman?

  But the second time he's arrested, he sees her crying uncontrollably, right? Is that the second time?

• 1:28:20David Sims?

  Yeah, she, she, her fiance leaves her during the.

• 1:28:23Griffin Newman?

  Her fiance.

• 1:28:26Speaker 04

  I didn't like that.

• 1:28:28Griffin Newman?

  Really?

• 1:28:28Speaker 04

  That was one moment where I was like, you're not treating this character with respect. That was like, it was too funny to, it was too funny to not include.

• 1:28:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:37Speaker 04

  But that's the one. Joel and Ethan Cohen, I know you're listening.

• 1:28:40Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  Go back and make Raising Arizona the special edition.

• 1:28:45David Sims?

  I think it's funny.

• 1:28:46Speaker 04

  It's funny, of course, it's funny.

• 1:28:48Griffin Newman?

  I don't think it's a slight on her intelligence. I think it is more about how different IELTS process different words, which is a thing I've noticed comes up a lot in their films.

• 1:29:00Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:29:00Griffin Newman?

  Like even in fucking Hail Caesar.

• 1:29:04Speaker 04

  The original title.

• 1:29:05Griffin Newman?

  Yep. When, um, when, uh, Ray.

• 1:29:10Speaker 04

  Rare moment of studio interference.

• 1:29:12Griffin Newman?

  About Aldiner and Reich, uh, he goes, I, I work with actors, not rodeo clowns. And that's a joke about a guy being so pretentious, he says rodeo wrong, right? And I view.

• 1:29:24Speaker 04

  And rodeo drive.

• 1:29:25Griffin Newman?

  Yes. I view finance as the inverse of that joke.

• 1:29:30Speaker 04

  They love language and it's obvious from everything they ever do. And it's another reason why I got so, so such a, well, there's a literary term for it. I got a hard on.

• 1:29:42Griffin Newman?

  That is.

• 1:29:42Speaker 04

  For, for their work because, because of their love of language and dialect, even if the dialect is invented, you know?

• 1:29:49David Sims?

  Now, we spoke about this, um, you know.

• 1:29:53Speaker 04

  A hard on, I'm sorry. I should have said, I have a hard on.

• 1:29:57Griffin Newman?

  David's really happy right now.

• 1:29:58Speaker 04

  I can tell David.

• 1:29:59David Sims?

  Uh, this prologue, um.

• 1:30:02Speaker 04

  I'm just gonna turn away from Griffin. I'll just look at you now.

• 1:30:05Griffin Newman?

  We just.

• 1:30:06Speaker 04

  He pulls me down.

• 1:30:07Griffin Newman?

  We egg each other, Ron.

• 1:30:08David Sims?

  Yeah. Uh, this prologue that is, uh, breakneck and romantic.

• 1:30:14Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:15David Sims?

  And sweet and sad. And in my opinion, just, I don't know how you don't, how you watch this and you're not like so energized by like the rest of the, you know, like the whole arc of them falling in love and, you know, getting together and she can't, you know, her womb is barren and he is seed can find no purchase and they can't adopt and they, you know, like where you're just like, yes, they're going to be okay. These like twin fires, right? Like.

• 1:30:42Griffin Newman?

  Well, I like that there's just some connection that keeps like, being tested every time they have one interaction.

• 1:30:52Griffin Newman?

  In between sentences, right? It's like they have this moment and then he's like locked up for six months and then he comes back and the moment continues.

• 1:30:59David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:31:00Griffin Newman?

  And he has this moment of like lashing out in anger at the idea of her finance. Who would ever leave a woman like you? That sticks with her is that the next time he's out, she's ready to lock it down and he has a reason to not go back.

• 1:31:12David Sims?

  Right. Yes.

• 1:31:13Griffin Newman?

  And that is so sweet and so powerful and is conveyed so quickly and so meaningfully. So much through these performances, right? But then you have this thing, it is such a good setup for the movie of like their earnest belief that like, well, yes, he's a criminal, but she works in law enforcement, doesn't that?

• 1:31:33David Sims?

  Get that balance out.

• 1:31:33Griffin Newman?

  Does that neutralize each other?

• 1:31:35David Sims?

  Evens it out.

• 1:31:35Griffin Newman?

  Them adoptable, but you're like, from this setup, you're like, yeah, you're right. This is, this is an unsolvable premise. They are never going to get approved for illegal adoption.

• 1:31:43David Sims?

  Time to kidnap a quint.

• 1:31:45Griffin Newman?

  Something has to be done.

• 1:31:46David Sims?

  So local, regional, regional furniture magnet, Nathan, Arizona, played wonderfully by Trey Wilson.

• 1:31:53Griffin Newman?

  Thirty seven years old in this movie?

• 1:31:55David Sims?

  Yeah, and you're right. With the body of a fifty eight year old. He gives off older. I cannot deny this. I was shocked to learn that he died at the age of forty.

• 1:32:02Griffin Newman?

  I know he technically died.

• 1:32:04David Sims?

  Right this second.

• 1:32:05Griffin Newman?

  Of like a hemorrhage, but it does feel like he was the youngest person ever to die of old age.

• 1:32:11David Sims?

  He has had quintuplets. Well, you know how I feel about him. I'm glad he's dead.

• 1:32:15Griffin Newman?

  Damn, not his grave.

• 1:32:16David Sims?

  You went back to that one. I was gonna set you up and then I was like, ah, maybe that's too mean. You did it anyway. I did it for you, David. Thank you. So they kind of have the about as altruistic of baby kidnapping ideas, I guess you can have, which is like, well, they got a lot of babies on their hands. They got more than they can handle.

• 1:32:36Griffin Newman?

  I like that part of the rationalization is almost like, that's so many kids, we'd maybe be doing them a favor. They're probably stressed out with how many kids they have to handle.

• 1:32:45David Sims?

  Now, you are not actually allowed, you know, Ben's gesturing at me. You're not allowed to have all your, your multiple birth children in one crib, as this movie depicts. Some of the things in this movie are a little outside of reality. Let me ask you a question. Is it cool to put a loaded gun down in the crib? Dude, that is something that I think, I don't think I really clocked as heavily as I did on this rewatch where I'm like, he never picks the gun back up.

• 1:33:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:09David Sims?

  He just leaves it in the crib.

• 1:33:10Griffin Newman?

  He lives in.

• 1:33:11David Sims?

  Well, when he's bending over the crib. The hammer, but like, that's about it.

• 1:33:17David Sims?

  Like, I kept waiting for the beat of him, like, you know, like, I'm like, he does pick the gun back up, right? And he's like, and one more thing. And I'm like, oh, yeah. And then he talks to them some more, then he leaves the room.

• 1:33:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, he leaves these home invaders and kidnappers.

• 1:33:29David Sims?

  Where are the other babies in that scene, by the way? Cause it is nighttime.

• 1:33:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, they're probably going on some Rugrats style adventure.

• 1:33:35David Sims?

  That must be it, that's right.

• 1:33:37Speaker 04

  David.

• 1:33:37Griffin Newman?

  It's four babies, day's out.

• 1:33:39Speaker 04

  I can't.

• 1:33:39David Sims?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:33:40Griffin Newman?

  I can't remember if you said this on mic or off mic, but you were like, now anytime you just have one of your twin boys in your arms, you're like, I, this is so easy.

• 1:33:52David Sims?

  This shit is fucking child's play.

• 1:33:53Griffin Newman?

  I can't believe I ever complained about this with my daughter.

• 1:33:55David Sims?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:33:57Griffin Newman?

  I'm, I'm so used to the challenge of two.

• 1:33:57David Sims?

  Having a kid for the first time, to be clear, to be sympathetic to people who listen to my show, having a kid is very hard. And it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to downplay that it's very hard to have a kid.

• 1:34:08Griffin Newman?

  But you're saying the intensity doubled by having two more at the same time.

• 1:34:12David Sims?

  Well, they always say it's like more than doubles, right? Like, it's like, yeah, but yes.

• 1:34:16Griffin Newman?

  And so I, I think there is this sort of like perverse backwards altruism in the idea of their scheme, which is like.

• 1:34:25Speaker 04

  It's interesting that you are able to have these characters be kidnappers and you don't lose sympathy for them.

• 1:34:31Griffin Newman?

  They're sort of reacting to the imagined idea of someone like David being like, oh, my God, I can't believe I have to feed two kids at once. And assuming that means if you took one kid away, they would thank you, when in reality, of course, that's not the case.

• 1:34:43Speaker 04

  Cut, cut to Griffin and I on top of a ladder, looking in a window in David's apartment.

• 1:34:49David Sims?

  As whimsical.

• 1:34:50Griffin Newman?

  I take the left one, you take the right one. He'll thank us both.

• 1:34:53David Sims?

  As whimsical as this film is.

• 1:34:54Speaker 04

  He's got more than he can handle, Griffin.

• 1:34:56David Sims?

  I, I mean, I do feel like this is a film when even the first time you're watching it, you kind of know, like, no babies are gonna die and everything's gonna be okay.

• 1:35:05Speaker 04

  It has to.

• 1:35:05David Sims?

  The tone of the film just sort of suggests like. There will be no sort of horrifying, sort of, you know, content in this.

• 1:35:13Griffin Newman?

  And I feel like the thing the film identifies that makes it so powerful and is the beating heart at the center of it, what is actually the real source of narrative tension in this film, more so than the demon on the motorcycle, right? Or, you know, the idea of law enforcement catching up with them, the two breakout hooligans who are trying to rope him back into crime, is that they get this kid, they immediately form such a genuine emotional connection to him. Not just the idea of finally we're parents, but they really immediately connect with, oh my god, I'm looking in the eyes of this creature and I'm feeling love, right?

• 1:35:50David Sims?

  What are you kidding? We got a family here.

• 1:35:52Griffin Newman?

  And then they are hearing on the news, not just like, I'm angry that someone stole my kid, give him back, but like the actual kind of bereft, kind of, uh, uh, not bereft, the, um, the grieving, the public grieving of these parents where you see on both Ed and H I, like, fuck, we've done something wrong.

• 1:36:15David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:36:16Griffin Newman?

  That the level of love we immediately feel for this baby makes us understand the amount of pain that we're putting these two parents through, and how is this solvable? Because if we give this kid up, we're gonna be missing him for the rest of our lives. And yet, that is the exact thing we've done to these two other people.

• 1:36:32David Sims?

  Still, they had four more.

• 1:36:34Griffin Newman?

  More than enough.

• 1:36:35David Sims?

  So, pretty quickly, uh, I mean, the, the, the line you referenced a while back, John, where Holly, uh, you know, Ed just starts sobbing the second she's holding the baby, I think that's so brilliant, because you're like, both like, yes, she's somewhat cracked, like, you know, like, these people are crazy enough to be kidnapping a baby and like, the intensity, like, her emotions are so in turmoil.

• 1:36:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:59David Sims?

  And but then you're also like, but she's right, like, all babies are beautiful and she loves this baby. It's fully sincere.

• 1:37:04Griffin Newman?

  It's what it feels like when you have a baby. Like, this thing that you felt a little bit ambivalent about, maybe, or you're

• 1:37:10Speaker 04

  Looking forward to, or but you know, reasonably scared about too, what the change is gonna be. And then you see it and she's like, I love it so much.

• 1:37:16Griffin Newman?

  Who cries better in movies than Holly Hunter?

• 1:37:20David Sims?

  Oh, totally. Good question. Basically. I mean, this is the same year as Broadcast News, right? Crying duo.

• 1:37:27Speaker 04

  It is what is crazy. When she takes the unplugs the phone and just sits there and cries.

• 1:37:31Griffin Newman?

  They start filming Broadcast News before this has come out. Am I correct? We did that episode so many years ago.

• 1:37:37David Sims?

  I don't remember. I mean, obviously.

• 1:37:38Griffin Newman?

  That is the case. They're obviously both Fox films.

• 1:37:41David Sims?

  Right. And they're similar timeline.

• 1:37:42Griffin Newman?

  Broadcast News was supposed to be Deborah Winger. She gets pregnant, raising Arizona style, anti-raising Arizona style.

• 1:37:48David Sims?

  Anti-raising Arizona.

• 1:37:49Griffin Newman?

  Uh, and they need a last minute sub in, and I think Fox was like, the woman in this fucking Coen Brothers movie is unbelievable. Take a look at her.

• 1:37:57David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:37:58Griffin Newman?

  And we talked about in that episode that the, I'm forgetting her name, but the real, uh, news producer, who James L. Brooks worked with to help develop the character.

• 1:38:07David Sims?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:07Griffin Newman?

  Uh, said, I'll admit to you something really embarrassing. Sometimes I just break down crying. And he wrote that into the script.

• 1:38:15David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:15Griffin Newman?

  So building that into Broadcast News so much is like pure serendipitous magic that like, he had landed on that.

• 1:38:25Speaker 04

  That's another one of our marital movies that we could just put on like, like everybody.

• 1:38:29Griffin Newman?

  The best.

• 1:38:29Speaker 04

  And I could easily go down that road, but look at David.

• 1:38:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:32David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:38:33Speaker 04

  I don't.

• 1:38:33Griffin Newman?

  Look at David.

• 1:38:34Speaker 04

  You already did a whole episode on that.

• 1:38:35Griffin Newman?

  He's about to start crying, Holly Hunter.

• 1:38:37Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:38:38David Sims?

  Uh, yeah, maybe I need to just schedule a 10 a.m. cry or whatever it is she does in, uh, Broadcast.

• 1:38:44Speaker 04

  This podcast is too long.

• 1:38:48David Sims?

  Um, pretty quickly, uh, highs former cellmates, Gail and Evil Snoots.

• 1:38:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:56David Sims?

  Uh, so Gail is of course John Goodman and Evil is, uh, the great William Forsythe. Did he ever do another Coens?

• 1:39:02Speaker 04

  No, he was left behind. He was left off the train. Cause it's like.

• 1:39:06Griffin Newman?

  He's so great in this movie and I remember watching for him all the time.

• 1:39:09David Sims?

  Yeah. In the nineties, William Forsythe is one of those guys who starts, he's just in like eight movies a year, right? Like in like little roles and like straight to video movies and shit like, he has a long, busy career, but mostly doing like fun junk.

• 1:39:22Griffin Newman?

  But you're right, because he's standing next to John Goodman, who the Coens both immediately lock in on. And are like, this is the love of our life.

• 1:39:29David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:39:30Griffin Newman?

  We have uncovered.

• 1:39:33Griffin Newman?

  A natural element that we will use to power up the rest of our careers.

• 1:39:38Speaker 05

  I would say one of the great introductions to a character is how you meet these two.

• 1:39:44David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:44Griffin Newman?

  Well, you have the first.

• 1:39:46David Sims?

  It's amazing.

• 1:39:46Griffin Newman?

  You're saying in the opening.

• 1:39:47Speaker 05

  Oh, I guess you kind of see them in.

• 1:39:48David Sims?

  But I do think the introduction to basically every character in this movie is as good as your, you know what I mean?

• 1:39:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, true.

• 1:39:54David Sims?

  They're so good at delivering like a visual concept of a character to you where you're like, I think I get it.

• 1:39:59Griffin Newman?

  And also I will say like you're introduced to so many characters in that prologue like M M Walsh and all the people in the prisons.

• 1:40:06David Sims?

  No, you're talking about their true entrance.

• 1:40:08Griffin Newman?

  Who never repeat again. If you're seeing this movie in 87 or these are unknown actors, you have no reason to believe that those guys are going to come back.

• 1:40:14David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:40:14Speaker 04

  You might say their birth, because they are, this is a birth scene.

• 1:40:20Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:20Speaker 04

  When they crawl out of that hole.

• 1:40:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, out of, out of the shit.

• 1:40:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:40:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:40:23Speaker 04

  Like they're, they're, they're being born out of a hole, crying, screaming and crying.

• 1:40:29Griffin Newman?

  Covered in poop.

• 1:40:30Speaker 04

  And evil has to be, he's a breach birth. He has to be pulled out by his ankle.

• 1:40:35Speaker 05

  Uh, it might've been a little bit too like out of reality, but I would have loved if he pulled the map out and started trying to figure out which way to Albuquerque.

• 1:40:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. You're right. Even think about that connection. I'm so obsessed with the birth canal metaphor that I didn't even think about is like, what's up, doc?

• 1:40:52Griffin Newman?

  Which way to Albuquerque? Another one of the funniest things ever. That every time it's map out of hole, which way to Albuquerque? He's always trying to get to Albuquerque for no apparent reason.

• 1:41:04David Sims?

  It's just kind of like nearby big city, I guess, that's far enough away.

• 1:41:07Speaker 04

  He had a meth empire that he had to.

• 1:41:09David Sims?

  I.

• 1:41:10Griffin Newman?

  He was trying to break bad.

• 1:41:11David Sims?

  Uh, you know, uh, when, when she's like, you busted out of jail and he's like, we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us. I think it's so funny. Like I, they're very like, they're interesting characters in this movie in a way in that they don't really matter to the plot that extremely. I guess they sort of just represent high's recidivism, right? Like his, his high opportunity for like.

• 1:41:35Griffin Newman?

  They're like the equivalent of his frat brothers who are like, don't you want to crack open a six pack?

• 1:41:39David Sims?

  Right. It's like, right. She just got with this guy. Now they're trying to be responsible, right? And the guys from the past are returning to be silly.

• 1:41:45Speaker 04

  Also both hyperverbal in the same.

• 1:41:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:48Speaker 04

  I mean, it's all the characters are, but.

• 1:41:50David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:51Speaker 04

  I think there was somewhere that I read that they, they had this idea that. These characters read a lot of magazines.

• 1:41:57Griffin Newman?

  That's good.

• 1:41:58Speaker 04

  That they picked up a lot of, like, yeah.

• 1:42:01David Sims?

  Just like, yeah.

• 1:42:02Speaker 04

  Like, the whole, like, this is, this is our family unit. Sure. There were some, like, magazine, magazine-y catchphrases of the day that were coming through there.

• 1:42:10Griffin Newman?

  I think they're like, they're finding something interesting in the tension between the sort of, like, yokalism, that is, the primary language with which these types of people are expressed in movies, usually as, like, inessential punchline characters.

• 1:42:25Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:42:25Griffin Newman?

  Right? And also, the grand tradition of this, like, incredible mastery of language, southern literary, sort of giants.

• 1:42:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:42:35Griffin Newman?

  Right? Like, the most profoundly emotional, thoughtful, sort of, inner life work. And being like, why are these two things so apart when we're saying they're both from the same region?

• 1:42:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:42:46Griffin Newman?

  And we're compartmentalizing them in our culture.

• 1:42:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:42:49Griffin Newman?

  But I, the magazine thing is a really good take. Like, people end up in prison, what are they gonna fucking do? Lose their mind, get ripped, and read.

• 1:42:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely so.

• 1:42:59David Sims?

  Uh, I haven't thought about these two guys that is escaping me. Or, or, no, it's right, so, like, right, they're the trashy, like, why don't we go knock over some 7-11s again? And then you have, um, Sam McMurray and Frances McDormand, just as sort of repellent, in a way, as the, like, bougie, like, oh, no, have babies, like, enter the middle class, like, be like us.

• 1:43:23Griffin Newman?

  Swinger couple, racist jokes.

• 1:43:25David Sims?

  With, with, excuse me, Polish, Polish people are not a race, they are nationality, I guess.

• 1:43:31Griffin Newman?

  My race.

• 1:43:32Speaker 04

  Sam McMurray, bringing a lot of, uh, talking about cartoons, a physical goofy energy.

• 1:43:38David Sims?

  Sam McMurray is the best.

• 1:43:40Griffin Newman?

  Rolls.

• 1:43:40David Sims?

  We cannot ever, right, like, I mean, like, he's the greatest. Did he ever do another Coens? He did Adam's Family Values.

• 1:43:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:49David Sims?

  So, Sonnenfeld worked with him again.

• 1:43:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:51Speaker 04

  I don't think that he did, I was looking that up.

• 1:43:53David Sims?

  He never did.

• 1:43:54Griffin Newman?

  He, I-

• 1:43:54David Sims?

  Obviously, a huge TV guy, like, did a Zillion TV thing.

• 1:43:57Griffin Newman?

  Well, she was-

• 1:43:58David Sims?

  But he's lots of movies.

• 1:43:59Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, Neil's dad on, uh, Freaks and Geeks, he's so fucking good.

• 1:44:03Speaker 04

  Oh, God, I forgot about that.

• 1:44:04Griffin Newman?

  That arc. Um, I, I don't know if he's talked about this publicly, or other people have talked about this publicly.

• 1:44:10David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:44:10Griffin Newman?

  But he was part of the cast of The Tracy Ullman Show.

• 1:44:13David Sims?

  Yes, for, like, sixty epis, like, the whole thing.

• 1:44:15Griffin Newman?

  And most of those main cast members got thrown in to do voices on The Simpsons, and he didn't get a family member. And he has a couple of guest appearances in the first season, but I think it has always kind of rankled him that he was like an inch away from the Simpsons.

• 1:44:29Speaker 04

  He was left behind by both the Coens and the Simpsons.

• 1:44:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Speaker 04

  That's rough.

• 1:44:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:35David Sims?

  That is interesting.

• 1:44:36Griffin Newman?

  Cause that, that cast otherwise has Cavanagh, it has Castellaneta, Azariah they find from the outside, cause the original guy they hired was an asshole.

• 1:44:44David Sims?

  Who's the original guy?

• 1:44:45Griffin Newman?

  I always forget his name.

• 1:44:46David Sims?

  Harry Shearer.

• 1:44:47Griffin Newman?

  Mark Maron, Mark Maron talks about him. He was a standup comedian who then primarily became a voice actor, but was so bitter about it. And he was like on G.I. Joe and a lot of big children's shows. And he was originally Burns, Moe, like all of those. I guess some of the characters end up being Shearer, some of them end up being Azariah.

• 1:45:04David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:05Griffin Newman?

  But Azariah talks about this, when they hired him, it was in a recasting, and he went, what was the other guy doing wrong? And they said, you know what, his performance was actually great. He was just such an asshole that we couldn't imagine continuing to work with him. And Azariah is like, that's the greatest fucking lesson in show business I ever learned.

• 1:45:23Speaker 04

  I thought it was because the other guy couldn't do an Indian accent.

• 1:45:25Griffin Newman?

  Well, that, that was also the big part of it.

• 1:45:27Speaker 04

  I, can I just say something that I discovered though?

• 1:45:29David Sims?

  What's that?

• 1:45:29Speaker 04

  Well, so I was thinking about this dude, uh, what's his name, Sam McMurray?

• 1:45:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:34David Sims?

  Sam McMurray.

• 1:45:34Speaker 04

  Like, so they're the, like Cage is Woody Woodpecker.

• 1:45:38David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:38Speaker 04

  Uh, and a little bit wily Coyote, obviously set in the American Southwest, so it's got Road Runner vibes.

• 1:45:44Griffin Newman?

  Right. Nathan Arizona is Yosemite Sam.

• 1:45:47Speaker 04

  Yosemite Sam. This guy feels like goofy to me. Carter, Carter Burwell did the score for a goofy movie.

• 1:45:53David Sims?

  Wow.

• 1:45:54Griffin Newman?

  That score.

• 1:45:55David Sims?

  That is interesting.

• 1:45:55Griffin Newman?

  That score is so fucking good. It's another score that you can like.

• 1:45:58David Sims?

  Do you know this score?

• 1:45:59Speaker 04

  I only know it because I was listening to Carter Burwell.

• 1:46:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:02Speaker 04

  Uh, joints.

• 1:46:03David Sims?

  On Spotify.

• 1:46:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. And all of a sudden it popped up. I'm like, wow.

• 1:46:06Griffin Newman?

  It is also a score where.

• 1:46:07David Sims?

  Suddenly like your phone was a little goofy.

• 1:46:09Speaker 04

  Got a little goofy.

• 1:46:11Griffin Newman?

  It, it is a score where if you played it for someone without telling them what movie it was, they would never guess it was a goofy movie. If you extract that score from the movie it's in.

• 1:46:19David Sims?

  I gotta fire up this score.

• 1:46:20Griffin Newman?

  It sounds like just a fucking classic Carter Burwell score. I have a great Super Yaki shirt that is music by Carter Burwell, his opening credit in the goofy movie font, which is just so funny to see.

• 1:46:32David Sims?

  Uh, you know what else is a goofy movie?

• 1:46:34Griffin Newman?

  Raising Arizona.

• 1:46:35David Sims?

  There you go.

• 1:46:37Speaker 04

  Bringing it back around. Um, now on to the second half of act one.

• 1:46:41Griffin Newman?

  I like that so much of their justification and why they so desperately want to have a child. I'm, I'm gonna fucking paraphrase this and misquote it, but the notion that like, we were so happy in love that once we landed on the idea of having a child, depriving them even one potential day of the joy we were experiencing, felt cruel, right? That there was a sense of like, they have found such comfort in each other that they created a world that they felt like, we need to bring someone else into this. Which then hurts them so much when they can't.

• 1:47:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. But it's, it's coming from like a true place of like, we want to create a zone of love that can extend.

• 1:47:22Speaker 04

  It's beautiful and it's human and it's not arch and it's not mannered and it's not stylized.

• 1:47:26Griffin Newman?

  At all. Yeah. Uh, so what happens in the movie? Uh, they kidnap.

• 1:47:34Speaker 04

  They have the baby.

• 1:47:34Griffin Newman?

  Nathan Jr.

• 1:47:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. The kidnap and then, and then, uh, then the, the.

• 1:47:38Griffin Newman?

  The cellmates show up and they're hanging out.

• 1:47:40Speaker 04

  Show up.

• 1:47:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Um, I love, uh, something stuck in my mind forever. Uh, John Goodman using the hand soap in the bathroom as sort of like pomade to fix his hair.

• 1:47:52Speaker 04

  That's pomade.

• 1:47:52Griffin Newman?

  Really?

• 1:47:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:53Griffin Newman?

  It's just so white and foamy that I always think he's putting hand soap in there as well. It is.

• 1:47:59Speaker 04

  It's also public pomade, which is gnarly. In a fucking gas station bathroom. It's the third, it's the third most famous men's hair pomade in the Coen Brothers universe.

• 1:48:11Griffin Newman?

  Well, Dapper Dan number one.

• 1:48:12Speaker 04

  Dapper Dan and Fop. Fop, yeah. I don't want Fop, goddammit! I met the guy who designed the cans for Fop and Dapper Dan, and indeed, all of those products.

• 1:48:22Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 1:48:22Speaker 04

  Uh, I profiled him for the New York Times Magazine, not for that reason.

• 1:48:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:26Speaker 04

  His name is Ted Hay, and on, uh, cocktail bulletin boards in the early 2000s, he was known as Dr. Cocktail. And his hobby was, he's a, he's a production designer for films, but his hobby was going into. Was recreating pre prohibition cocktails.

• 1:48:42Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:43Speaker 04

  Ideally with pre prohibition liquor that he would source by going into the attics of old liquor stores in Chicago and finding stuff that was a hundred years old.

• 1:48:52Speaker 05

  Cool.

• 1:48:52Speaker 04

  Doesn't go bad.

• 1:48:53Speaker 05

  That fucking rules.

• 1:48:54Speaker 04

  Ted Haig.

• 1:48:56Griffin Newman?

  We've been close friends to nearing a decade now.

• 1:49:00Speaker 05

  All right.

• 1:49:00Speaker 04

  I dare say.

• 1:49:01Griffin Newman?

  I cannot believe I've never thought to ask you. Were you on high end cocktail message boards in the early 2000s?

• 1:49:07Speaker 04

  I was not. Then how did you know this? Because I befriended and was briefly the literary agent to Dale DeGroff, who was the bartender, the famous bartender at the Rainbow Room.

• 1:49:19Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:49:20Speaker 04

  Who, uh, really.

• 1:49:22David Sims?

  Here, I'm gonna do a picture of him quick from any like magazine he's probably ever been like featured in.

• 1:49:28Griffin Newman?

  David has perfectly affected the pose of a man shaking a drink.

• 1:49:31Speaker 04

  Shaking a drink. Anyway. Dale DeGroff was part of the big cocktail renaissance of the, of the early 2000s.

• 1:49:37Speaker 05

  Craft cocktails.

• 1:49:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. And then, uh, and in fact, his book that I represented, The Craft of the Cocktail, still in print.

• 1:49:42Griffin Newman?

  Well, look at that.

• 1:49:43Speaker 04

  Still available in hardcover.

• 1:49:44Griffin Newman?

  No paperback?

• 1:49:46Speaker 04

  Well, probably there's a paperback out there.

• 1:49:47Griffin Newman?

  I'll search.

• 1:49:48Speaker 04

  But he put me on to Ted Hay and David Wondrich, another big cocktail historian.

• 1:49:52Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. David Wondrich has some awesome books about the history of cocktails.

• 1:49:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. David Wondrich is a cool dude and he's a former punk rocker.

• 1:50:00Speaker 05

  Oh, really?

• 1:50:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50:01Speaker 05

  Oh, shit.

• 1:50:02Speaker 04

  Big time punk rocker.

• 1:50:03Speaker 05

  So cool. But Imbibe and Punch are two of his books that are excellent. Highly recommend.

• 1:50:08Speaker 04

  I don't know that Ted ever did a book, but you can read my profile of him in the New York Times Magazine.

• 1:50:13David Sims?

  I think I saw Fancy Cocktail Chat hitting the Raising Arizona episode. They don't really have a lot.

• 1:50:19Speaker 04

  I just had to talk about how.

• 1:50:20David Sims?

  I know.

• 1:50:21Speaker 04

  Excited I was when I learned that he designed the Fop and Dapper Dan cans. I don't know.

• 1:50:24David Sims?

  I don't want Fop, goddammit.

• 1:50:26Speaker 05

  Speaking of doctors, Dr. Spock, we gotta talk about it.

• 1:50:29David Sims?

  That's so funny that that's the instruction manual.

• 1:50:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, that is a good joke.

• 1:50:32David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:50:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34David Sims?

  Uh, my parents had that book. I, I, that book brings me back to the, you know.

• 1:50:40Griffin Newman?

  Our, our, our baby years.

• 1:50:41David Sims?

  Exactly. Um.

• 1:50:43Griffin Newman?

  Our own personal baby years.

• 1:50:44Speaker 05

  Are, is that still a tome?

• 1:50:46David Sims?

  Nope.

• 1:50:47Speaker 05

  Like, or has a lot of this stuff moved on?

• 1:50:49Griffin Newman?

  Completely discredited and thrown in the trash?

• 1:50:50David Sims?

  No, I wouldn't say that's true. It's more just like.

• 1:50:52Griffin Newman?

  Just outmoded.

• 1:50:53David Sims?

  Yeah, a lot of his stuff is still, he's not a bad, he's not bad. Like Dr. Spock is good. Like his, his ideas are largely good. He was.

• 1:51:01Griffin Newman?

  Well, he just wanted people to live long and prosper.

• 1:51:04David Sims?

  You know, he was, politically, he was on the left and he was on the right side of things and stuff, you know.

• 1:51:09Griffin Newman?

  Wait, I'm sorry, was he on the left or the right side of things?

• 1:51:13Speaker 04

  I have.

• 1:51:13Griffin Newman?

  You teed me up there. I know you're trying to get your point out.

• 1:51:16David Sims?

  Um, but.

• 1:51:17Speaker 04

  All I can say about Dr. Spock is I'm glad he's dead.

• 1:51:21Speaker 04

  Look, I have three points of personal connection.

• 1:51:25David Sims?

  When did he die?

• 1:51:26Speaker 04

  That I.

• 1:51:26David Sims?

  Nineteen ninety-eight, so he's still raising Arizona. I wonder if he thought it was funny to have his book in.

• 1:51:31Speaker 04

  I hope he was like, I hope he got a big fat check out of it.

• 1:51:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Speaker 04

  That's a very, very funny running gag.

• 1:51:36David Sims?

  I don't think anyone involved with this movie got a big fat check, just to be clear. I think the checks were fairly.

• 1:51:41Speaker 04

  What if Benjamin Spock, Dr. Benjamin Spock?

• 1:51:43David Sims?

  Six million dollar budget, five to Ben.

• 1:51:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, what if it was that? Alright, so I have three points of personal connection that I must raise before the podcast ends, and the podcast must end.

• 1:51:52Griffin Newman?

  Two hours.

• 1:51:53Speaker 04

  This episode, not the whole.

• 1:51:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:54David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:55Speaker 04

  One, regarding Dr. Spock, my wife was a whole human being in her own right.

• 1:52:01Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:52:01Speaker 04

  Her aunt was his assistant for years.

• 1:52:04Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 1:52:05Speaker 04

  And it is understood within the family that she was also his mistress. Sorry, Spock family, I'm dropping some bombs.

• 1:52:13Griffin Newman?

  Oh.

• 1:52:13Speaker 04

  Who knows? This could be the Fletcher family mythology, but.

• 1:52:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:18Speaker 04

  Anne Winter was her name.

• 1:52:19Griffin Newman?

  Anne Winter.

• 1:52:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Another piece of personal connection.

• 1:52:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:23Speaker 04

  I met Carter Burwell at the TED conference. That's all. Starstruck.

• 1:52:28Griffin Newman?

  Did he yodel that?

• 1:52:28Speaker 04

  No, he was a very sweet, down-to-earth dude. Actually, came to, uh, David Reese and I, years ago, worked on a thing for HBO that never went, and he came to the edit to look at it.

• 1:52:39Griffin Newman?

  He is able to, obviously, this score is not an example of this, but I think in some of his work, he is able to tap into, uh, a feeling, a musical feeling, that feels like it is touching such an intense darkness.

• 1:52:52Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:52:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. That I always wonder, like, is he one of these guys who is just like, ugh? And he seems very chill and like.

• 1:52:58Speaker 04

  No, you know what he seemed like to me?

• 1:53:00Griffin Newman?

  What?

• 1:53:00Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:53:00David Sims?

  A little goofy.

• 1:53:01Griffin Newman?

  It's a little goofy.

• 1:53:02David Sims?

  Sorry, sorry, David, I had.

• 1:53:03Griffin Newman?

  But you know what I'm saying? I'm like, I could listen to some of his scores and be like, is this man the Edgar Allan Poe of film composers?

• 1:53:10Speaker 04

  Oh, because he's so, because he's so dark and he was.

• 1:53:12Griffin Newman?

  That it feels like there's.

• 1:53:13Speaker 04

  In love with his fourteen-year-old cousin.

• 1:53:15Griffin Newman?

  Well, I would not, I would not.

• 1:53:16David Sims?

  I also don't get the Edgar Allan Poe thing.

• 1:53:19Griffin Newman?

  I think he, he is able to convey a darkness and music that I cannot think of another composer who is able to hit that consistently, where I'm like, is this a man who is spending all of his time wallowing in the deepest thoughts imaginable? And he does not seem to be that way.

• 1:53:34Speaker 04

  Not in the very brief time. The third point of personal connection, and I will not tell the story till we're ready to end.

• 1:53:39Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:53:40Speaker 04

  Not, not just because I want to keep moving.

• 1:53:42Griffin Newman?

  Pin.

• 1:53:42Speaker 04

  Was that I auditioned for Burn After Reading.

• 1:53:45David Sims?

  Oh, interesting. For what role?

• 1:53:47Speaker 04

  I'll tell you later.

• 1:53:48Griffin Newman?

  Pin.

• 1:53:49David Sims?

  Okay. So what else happens in the movie?

• 1:53:52Griffin Newman?

  Lack of conventional jokes, but Forsythe and Goodman showing up does have more of a kind of classic comedy vibe.

• 1:53:58David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:53:58Griffin Newman?

  Of them having to cover for their lies.

• 1:53:59David Sims?

  Silly conflict here.

• 1:54:01Griffin Newman?

  It's a welcome home sign for a baby, which is funny.

• 1:54:04David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:54:04Griffin Newman?

  So they have to explain the baby was visiting the grandparents, even though both the grandparents are dead and they're in different locations.

• 1:54:10David Sims?

  And but it's also the conflict of Hi being tempted back to criminal life.

• 1:54:14Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:54:14David Sims?

  Uh, this is where we, he has the, the nightmare about Leonard Smalls where we're sort of, I feel really introducing this concept of like, Hi is sort of connected to, you know, he has the sight in a strange sort of a way. In a way, the movie doesn't have to think about very hard.

• 1:54:31Griffin Newman?

  Well, here's the thing the co-ones have said in interviews. That the way they conceived of Leonard Smalls was not, what is the ultimate villain that could exist in this universe? But what is the ultimate villain that would exist in HI's imagination?

• 1:54:44David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:54:45Griffin Newman?

  If he had to fear someone coming and retrieving the baby, what is the worst thing he would think of?

• 1:54:51David Sims?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:54:52Speaker 04

  And it is almost a cartoon version of an evil biker.

• 1:54:56Griffin Newman?

  And it comes to him in his sleep.

• 1:54:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. And he looks like a monster. He looks like one of those Looney Tunes monsters.

• 1:55:00Griffin Newman?

  He does.

• 1:55:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:55:01Griffin Newman?

  Uh, there's a quote I want to read from him, from Tex.

• 1:55:05Speaker 04

  Randall Tex Cobb.

• 1:55:06Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Uh, he was on David Letterman, 1987, must've been for the promote the release of this movie perhaps?

• 1:55:13Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 1:55:13Griffin Newman?

  And, uh, Letterman says, how does your current job compare to your old job? And he said, in the last job I had, if you didn't do it just exactly right, you got hit in the mouth. In this kind of job, the worst thing that can happen, I mean, if everything in the whole world goes wrong, take two.

• 1:55:29Speaker 04

  Nice.

• 1:55:30Griffin Newman?

  It's really good.

• 1:55:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's really something to think about.

• 1:55:32Griffin Newman?

  It's really funny.

• 1:55:33Speaker 04

  I think he is magnificent.

• 1:55:36David Sims?

  Well, in the movie, he's so perfect, it's crazy.

• 1:55:38Speaker 04

  His voice and manner.

• 1:55:41David Sims?

  His little squinty face.

• 1:55:42Speaker 04

  The squinty face, the high pitched voice.

• 1:55:45Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:55:45David Sims?

  The stained teeth.

• 1:55:46Speaker 04

  The stained teeth, but it's like, you know, it is absurd that this monster has his voice like this. Like, it's totally like a Looney Tunes gag. That that nose that has been so mashed into his face that his breathing is wrong.

• 1:56:01Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:56:02Speaker 04

  The fact that his name is Leonard Smalls.

• 1:56:04Griffin Newman?

  His his nose is somehow two dimensional.

• 1:56:07David Sims?

  Lenny to his friends, but he doesn't have many friends.

• 1:56:09Speaker 04

  But he doesn't have any friends, right?

• 1:56:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:11David Sims?

  He wears the shit out of a grenade.

• 1:56:15Speaker 04

  Although it's ultimately his undoing. Until the grenade wears the shit out of him.

• 1:56:18David Sims?

  That's true. He's got the little booties.

• 1:56:20Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:20David Sims?

  What else? That I like that, you know, the.

• 1:56:24Speaker 04

  Well, he was trafficked as a child.

• 1:56:25Griffin Newman?

  Mama didn't love me is the tattoo, right?

• 1:56:27David Sims?

  Yeah, he's got the sort of different sized guns.

• 1:56:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:30David Sims?

  Um, which I think is very cool.

• 1:56:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, but that's what's smart about.

• 1:56:33David Sims?

  He's got weird fur on his boots.

• 1:56:35Griffin Newman?

  What's smart about the character is that the movie says, like, this is the end result of a child being taken out of its nature.

• 1:56:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:56:43Griffin Newman?

  Right? Like, in in a very silly heightened way.

• 1:56:48Speaker 04

  And, you know, the connection between the Woody Woodpecker tattoos.

• 1:56:51Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:51Speaker 04

  To jump ahead in the final confrontation. It's it's like a it's like a fighting Darth Vader in the tree moment.

• 1:56:58Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:56:58Speaker 04

  And Empire's, you know, Yoda's and shit.

• 1:57:00David Sims?

  We're not so different.

• 1:57:00Speaker 04

  Talking about Yoda's and shit here.

• 1:57:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, Yoda's and shit.

• 1:57:03Speaker 04

  We're not so different, you and I. It's like, so he peels back or, you know, they're they're in this big, very brutal fight.

• 1:57:09Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:10Speaker 04

  And Nicolas Cage peels back a layer of fur covered leather, fur covered leather or whatever. See, he's got the Woody Woodpecker.

• 1:57:18Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:20Speaker 04

  If and that connection has always, and I think to the movie's credit, remained a little bit ambiguous. Like, what it's not a very on the nose indication of sameness.

• 1:57:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:30Speaker 04

  It's like it invites you to wonder how they're the same, how they're linked, what it is. Now, it is Woody Woodpecker, but to be clear, that is a.

• 1:57:40Speaker 04

  Off-brand.

• 1:57:41Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:57:42Speaker 04

  Uh, appropriation of Woody Woodpecker for a muffler company from the sixties called Thrush Muffler.

• 1:57:47Griffin Newman?

  It's kind of the equivalent of Calvin pissing on shit.

• 1:57:50Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:57:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:51Speaker 04

  And it was a staple of like muscle car.

• 1:57:54Griffin Newman?

  Yup.

• 1:57:55Speaker 04

  Uh, iconography in the, in the sixties and seventies.

• 1:57:58Griffin Newman?

  Which then often became like biker gang iconography.

• 1:58:00Speaker 04

  And unfortunately, Woody Woodpecker, not that particular design, but in general, in prison as a tattoo is a white, is a white supremacist.

• 1:58:08David Sims?

  Oh, my boy. Cause it's guys got their paws on Woody.

• 1:58:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. Is Woody Woodpecker funny?

• 1:58:14Griffin Newman?

  It's a really good question.

• 1:58:15David Sims?

  Cause I never loved him. I definitely know who he is and I know the noise he makes.

• 1:58:20Speaker 04

  I don't ever remember.

• 1:58:21David Sims?

  In my brain.

• 1:58:23Speaker 04

  Woody Woodpecker would make the run on afternoon cartoons on WLVI, channel fifty-six in Boston.

• 1:58:28Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58:29Speaker 04

  But I, and I saw a lot of it, but I never remember ha, ha, ha, ha, ha-ing at it.

• 1:58:34Griffin Newman?

  I remember having a distinct sort of fondness for, oh, a Woody's coming on, right?

• 1:58:40Speaker 04

  Different.

• 1:58:41Griffin Newman?

  I'm watching these hours-long animation blocks and I'd be excited to see like, oh, it's a Chilly Willy, you know?

• 1:58:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:58:46Griffin Newman?

  Like Woody was not one I was dreading when a Woody Woodpecker cartoon came up in the rotation. And yet I watched Looney Tunes today. I laugh, I chuckle, I guffaw.

• 1:58:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:58:56Griffin Newman?

  I cannot imagine Woody Woodpecker doing anything that would make me.

• 1:58:59Speaker 04

  He's an imitation. I mean, a, a.

• 1:59:01Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:59:02Speaker 04

  Purposeful and considered imitation. And even if he was, I mean, Mel Blanc, uh, or blank, or I don't know if you say his name, right?

• 1:59:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:09Speaker 04

  I don't know. He's dead now and I'm glad of it.

• 1:59:11Griffin Newman?

  John?

• 1:59:12David Sims?

  Wait a second. Everyone's getting bodied here. All these twentieth century icons.

• 1:59:17Speaker 04

  Just acknowledging that we all are mortal. We don't, we don't live forever and I'm glad.

• 1:59:22Griffin Newman?

  You're glad that people are dead rather than being stuck on this myrtle coil long past their due date.

• 1:59:27David Sims?

  Do you think Mel Blanc had to die so that Mel B from the Spice Girls could emerge?

• 1:59:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, they're currently one.

• 1:59:32David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:59:34Speaker 04

  I forgot they were both Highlanders. Yeah, good point. But yeah, Woody Woodpecker was a, also ran an imitation.

• 1:59:40Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:59:41Speaker 04

  Sorry, sorry, the estate of Walter Lantz.

• 1:59:42David Sims?

  If Yoda told you to go into a cave of evil, would you do it?

• 1:59:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I'd do anything Yoda told me to.

• 1:59:48David Sims?

  Cause that might be when I'm piecing out. I guess he doesn't have the X-Wing out yet.

• 1:59:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:53David Sims?

  Now, X-Files, Tex Cobb's in one of those.

• 1:59:56Griffin Newman?

  Here's the difference. I would.

• 1:59:59David Sims?

  My brain, no worky, as the millennials say.

• 2:00:02Griffin Newman?

  You've been sick for 17 years, it seems like. You've had the endless cold. I, when I watch Empire Strikes Back, my thought is always, I don't know if I leave Dagobah.

• 2:00:13David Sims?

  Right, actually, kind of, sort of a chill vibe here.

• 2:00:15Griffin Newman?

  I think Yoda's kinda got it figured out, and I know Luke's like, I gotta go save my friends, and part of me is just sort of like, I don't know if anything you can do at this point's gonna make a difference.

• 2:00:24Speaker 04

  Well, look, I know that we like talking about Yoda's and shit.

• 2:00:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, we do.

• 2:00:28Speaker 04

  But we should not, because poor David.

• 2:00:30David Sims?

  No, I don't like talking about Yoda, kidding me?

• 2:00:32Speaker 04

  You wanna throw the rest of this movie away and just talk about Yoda's and shit?

• 2:00:35David Sims?

  No, no, no. Come on. Sure. What's up with Yoda?

• 2:00:39Speaker 04

  I'll tell you something about Yoda. He died pretty suddenly in Return of the Jedi, right, David?

• 2:00:43David Sims?

  Yeah, that was the point I made. You're taking my point.

• 2:00:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, but that was before we were on mic, I believe.

• 2:00:47David Sims?

  Oh, you want me to make it?

• 2:00:48Griffin Newman?

  Okay, we're making it on mic.

• 2:00:49David Sims?

  He's old the entire fucking saga.

• 2:00:51Griffin Newman?

  Why is he choosing that moment to tap on?

• 2:00:52David Sims?

  And then like in Jedi, Luke's like, hey, Yoda, what's up? It's been like a year max since I last saw you. Yoda's like, truly seconds from death. He's just like, Luke, I'm walking in that bed and let me tell you, I ain't getting out of it, okay?

• 2:01:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:06David Sims?

  Luke's like, oh, I have a bunch of questions for you. He's like, yeah, I think Leia's your sister or something. Check in with the Obi-Wan ghost. I am outta here.

• 2:01:12Griffin Newman?

  He's got a Marion Cutier, Dark Knight Rises death.

• 2:01:15David Sims?

  Look, it is actually hysterical that in Jedi, Yoda can't even give Luke a lot of the exposition. And fucking Ghost Obi-Wan then sits on a log and is like, FYI, yes, we knew Vader was your dad. Yes, Leia's your sister.

• 2:01:27Griffin Newman?

  Yoda didn't cover any of this? Are you fucking kidding me? The guy couldn't have held on for 10 more minutes?

• 2:01:31David Sims?

  And Luke's like, why didn't you tell me about the Vader thing? He's like, look, from a certain point of view. And Luke's like, just say George hadn't figured it out yet.

• 2:01:38Speaker 04

  All I remember from, even though, even though I was a-

• 2:01:41David Sims?

  Guinness is like, I can't believe I'm even in this one. I died two movies ago.

• 2:01:44Speaker 04

  Even though I was only 12 years old, maybe, when that movie came out, and I, and I think John Wolfe, convinced our teachers to let the whole class skip school.

• 2:01:55David Sims?

  Oh, let's like, go see it.

• 2:01:56Speaker 04

  To go see it as a field trip. And Brooks Ames was not allowed to come with us.

• 2:02:00David Sims?

  Like his parents?

• 2:02:01Speaker 04

  Cause his parents said no.

• 2:02:02Griffin Newman?

  Were Sith.

• 2:02:03Speaker 04

  Even though I was young, in that moment, when Yoda died, I thought to myself two things. One- That's how it is when a person gets old, if you're caretaking for an elder parent, they'll take a sudden turn for the worse. And the other thing I thought at the time was, I'm glad he's dead.

• 2:02:22Griffin Newman?

  I think, I think the smallest thing is, right, like, there is this fear of what feels like this incomprehensible, otherworldly, if not evil, at least scariness, right?

• 2:02:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:02:35Griffin Newman?

  Like, a man who exists just to be a monster. And yet, his motivating force is, I was taken away by my parents, and look at me now, and I have to stop it from happening, right? Which, more than him being able to solve the problem himself, I think it kind of scares H.I. and Ed enough, combined with seeing the actual sorrow of the Arizonas at the child being missing, of like, if we love this kid, we actually can't do this to him.

• 2:02:59Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:03:00Griffin Newman?

  This is like, creating a problem that's gonna hang over him for the rest of his life, whether he knows it or not.

• 2:03:04Speaker 04

  But the fact, yeah, sorry.

• 2:03:05Griffin Newman?

  And then the second part of it is, I think seeing the tattoo is less signaling that they're part of the same supremacist group, and more just like, oh, right, this guy was a person at some point.

• 2:03:16Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:03:16Griffin Newman?

  It's not that we're the same person.

• 2:03:18David Sims?

  There's emotion that's been kind of calcified, or like, you know, scarred over with this guy.

• 2:03:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, it is the raw, it is his raw flesh.

• 2:03:26David Sims?

  The last thing that H.I. says to him is, sorry. Like, H.I. has to destroy him because he's a villain, an obstacle, but H.I. doesn't feel great about blowing him up.

• 2:03:35Griffin Newman?

  Right, but like, every-

• 2:03:36Speaker 04

  But there's also ambiguity about what the apology is for. Like, it is that.

• 2:03:40Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:03:41Speaker 04

  But what else is he sorry for? And I love this ambiguity. Like, I, it, this is what I was thinking about before, with regard to trying to figure out what is the emotional core of the Coens that they're bringing to this. It doesn't matter. Then, I studied literary theory at Yale University, a four-year accredited college in Southern Cal, uh, Connecticut. And the first thing we were taught is, the author is dead. Authorial intention does not matter.

• 2:04:08Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:04:08Speaker 04

  What is left behind the text often reflects things that the author doesn't even think about on a conscious level.

• 2:04:15Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:04:15Speaker 04

  So even if they do have an intention, and state it, that does not mean that they themselves, if they are alive, they're reliable narrators, necessarily, about their own work. And so, and, and sometimes they're not allowed, they're not, they can't speak for their intention because they are dead. And you know what? I'm glad.

• 2:04:32Griffin Newman?

  I'm going to-

• 2:04:32Speaker 04

  But that said-

• 2:04:34Griffin Newman?

  Ten comedy points.

• 2:04:35Speaker 04

  The, the, the effort to try to humanize or find an emotional core for what the Coens are going through is, I think, ultimately a dead end for this reason.

• 2:04:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:49Speaker 04

  And I love the fact that they will put in these things that feel very meaningful, and yet they have no precise explanation.

• 2:04:58Griffin Newman?

  Well, the Hat and Miller's Crossing is probably the ultimate one. We'll talk about it next week. Sure. And we'll get to Sirius Man, which embraced the mysteries of them yelling that at the audience, right? At a point in time where I think audiences have finally come to understand how to build a relationship to their movies and not bang their head against a wall. But I also, I think a lot about, I believe it was on an episode of WTF where Patton Oswalt was on, and the two of them were talking about how much they both love the Coen Brothers. Sure. And Maren says something to the effect of like, "You, you know about like movies and shit, right? Why are the Coen Brothers so good? Explain to me why I think about their movies all the time."

• 2:05:32Speaker 04

  Honestly, that's why he's a master interviewer.

• 2:05:34Griffin Newman?

  I agree. Uh, and Oswald said something that I think about a lot in relation to their work, where I, I will probably paraphrase this in a way that is much worse than the way he put it, but something to the effect of, uh, the thing about the Coen Brothers is they're not interested in giving you answers. They just kind of casually open doors and let you decide whether or not you want to walk through them yourselves, right? And there is that feeling of, I know there is something behind this door. And now the door has been opened, but they're not guiding you through it, and they're not telling you you need to walk through that door.

• 2:06:08Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 2:06:09Griffin Newman?

  And that feeling of like, I might not have the answers, but I know there is an answer here.

• 2:06:13Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:06:14Griffin Newman?

  And part of the joy is knowing that you're never gonna land on it definitively, but that you can wonder about what's behind that door forever.

• 2:06:21Speaker 04

  I, I mean, you know, so much of, you know, movie quote unquote fandom on the internet these days is breaking it down and figuring it out.

• 2:06:28Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 2:06:29Speaker 04

  And getting to a final answer.

• 2:06:31Griffin Newman?

  And they don't design movies like puzzles of like, we're giving you the clues, and if you put them together right, you will have.

• 2:06:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:06:36Griffin Newman?

  Everything.

• 2:06:37Speaker 04

  They're not like Mr. Policeman, I gave you all the clues.

• 2:06:39Griffin Newman?

  They're not like.

• 2:06:39Speaker 04

  They're not snowmen's.

• 2:06:40Griffin Newman?

  They're not snowmen's. Um, and I think, you know, this movie has less of it than some of their later films.

• 2:06:46Speaker 04

  I want to be clear that I thought that was funny.

• 2:06:48Griffin Newman?

  I, that was very funny.

• 2:06:51Griffin Newman?

  You might have heard on the, uh, the audio, David laughing uproariously at that joke. Unless Ben chose to cut it out for some reason.

• 2:06:58Speaker 04

  Sick guy.

• 2:06:59Speaker 05

  Weird.

• 2:07:00Griffin Newman?

  But I think like.

• 2:07:02Speaker 04

  You know what? I love the ambiguity, you know? Just let it like, did David find it funny or not? It's, it's for you to interpret.

• 2:07:08Griffin Newman?

  It's hard to think of another like broad studio comedy of the 1980s. That would allow you to be like, and I don't know if I'll ever hear an answer for that. And I find that interesting.

• 2:07:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, obviously.

• 2:07:20Griffin Newman?

  In a way that doesn't feel like a plot hole.

• 2:07:22Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:07:23Griffin Newman?

  Uh, it, it's just fascinating that even in their movie, that's like, let's just try to make something that's fun. It still starts to like, scratch at these corners of mystery.

• 2:07:32Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 2:07:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:33Speaker 05

  Okay. So I think we kind of left off discussing somewhat the, the couple Glenn and Dot. Stop by, meet the new baby.

• 2:07:42Griffin Newman?

  I need to award five million comedy points to their son who just writes the word fart on the inside of their wall.

• 2:07:50Speaker 04

  That hits so hard.

• 2:07:51Griffin Newman?

  It is incredible.

• 2:07:52Speaker 04

  And then the callback to fart later is equally genius.

• 2:07:56Speaker 05

  And I like how they're signaling just like the chaos of this family and how they're not really disciplining the children at all.

• 2:08:04Speaker 04

  They're gently, they're gently signaling that the family is chaos.

• 2:08:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're not doing well.

• 2:08:08Speaker 04

  The kids are all bandaged and hitting everybody with sticks.

• 2:08:12Griffin Newman?

  But this basically leads directly.

• 2:08:13Speaker 05

  Like when they cut to that shot and they're just like hitting the fucking car.

• 2:08:17Griffin Newman?

  The girl's got the eye patch. Um, this leads like directly into the, the Huggies heist.

• 2:08:23Speaker 04

  Uh, yes, yes. Uh, things are, tension is building. They stop at a convenience store. I need some Huggies. I need some Huggies and all the cash. Yeah. I'll be back. I'll take these Huggies and, uh. And whatever cash you have.

• 2:08:36Griffin Newman?

  You and I agree, David, that the Coen Brothers are underrated as being some of the best action filmmakers on the planet because it's not their primary mode.

• 2:08:42Speaker 04

  But this movie.

• 2:08:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:44Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely. Again, I mean, like, it is hard. The, I don't really know how they did this camera stuff. I've watched special features where they, they sort of explain it.

• 2:08:54Griffin Newman?

  And some of its evolution of Raimi Cam shit.

• 2:08:56Speaker 04

  The way it rots around.

• 2:08:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:57Speaker 04

  Yes, it's so cool.

• 2:08:59Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:08:59Speaker 04

  Um, but yes, Hi knocks over a convenience store. He can't help it. He loves to knock over a convenience store.

• 2:09:04Griffin Newman?

  I think a lot of it's under cranking combined with like incredibly meticulously rehearsed and practiced runs on complicated dolly, dolly tracks and rigs and stuff.

• 2:09:14Speaker 04

  It was the adolescence of its day.

• 2:09:16Griffin Newman?

  I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

• 2:09:19Speaker 04

  I will never watch that shit.

• 2:09:21Griffin Newman?

  I will never watch it.

• 2:09:21Speaker 04

  In a billion years. You haven't seen it?

• 2:09:23Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:09:23Speaker 04

  Oh, you have to see it.

• 2:09:25Griffin Newman?

  Hmm, do I?

• 2:09:26Speaker 04

  Definitely don't. Oh, it's magnificent.

• 2:09:28Griffin Newman?

  I've been too busy rewatching Disney's Bonkers from the beginning, so that's gonna take up the next four months of my life.

• 2:09:33Speaker 04

  It is a. Are you okay?

• 2:09:38Griffin Newman?

  My.

• 2:09:38Speaker 04

  If you are not seeing it because of one of two reasons. One, that it is emotionally devastating.

• 2:09:44Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:09:44Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 2:09:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:45Speaker 04

  And two, that the gimmick of shooting each episode is a single one-shot.

• 2:09:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:51Speaker 04

  Is distracting and mannered.

• 2:09:53Griffin Newman?

  I don't, I don't believe that. I believe it is well executed, yet I'm just like, I simply don't want to watch that. Mostly because of point one.

• 2:10:00Speaker 04

  I, I would, I would say that both of those things are true and yet you forget about them.

• 2:10:05Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:10:05Speaker 04

  In a way that is astonishing. Both the technique that it was filmed and the fact that it is, I mean, you feel the emotional gut punch, but you are on a journey. It's great.

• 2:10:15Griffin Newman?

  Just to resolve this question, David, my girlfriend asked me, are there cartoon characters that you grew up having like early formative crushes on? And I was like, yeah, I feel like the obvious ones, you know, the generationally Spennelli and recess and whatever. And I said, what about you? And she went bonkers. And I went, well, that's very damning for me. It feels like there's a real straight line to you being activated by Bonkers as a child and dating me now.

• 2:10:41Speaker 04

  Sadly true.

• 2:10:41Griffin Newman?

  And then I was like, I think we need to watch Bonkers so I can solve this.

• 2:10:45Speaker 04

  Sixty one episodes and four special compilations.

• 2:10:47Griffin Newman?

  I think we're ten in.

• 2:10:49Speaker 04

  I feel profoundly older than you. I don't, this is a generational thing. I don't even know.

• 2:10:54Griffin Newman?

  Bonkers was like a rip off Roger Rabbit cartoon that clearly they deny it had been developed as the Roger Rabbit animated series and then realized we're gonna have Semecus and Spielberg baked into these contracts and too much approval. So it becomes about a different silly cartoon animal who is partners with a gruff, fat, real world style policeman.

• 2:11:13Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 2:11:13Griffin Newman?

  Who solved cases in Toontown.

• 2:11:16Speaker 04

  Oh, alright.

• 2:11:16Speaker 05

  What, what, what's next in Raising Arizona? What else we need to talk about?

• 2:11:19Speaker 04

  Huggies.

• 2:11:20Griffin Newman?

  Huggies. Heist, which is just like a Bavura fucking ten, twelve minute action sequence.

• 2:11:25Speaker 04

  The payoff when, when he gives her, he's giving her those directions.

• 2:11:29Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:11:29Speaker 04

  While they're having the monologue, you have a man for a husband, you're not a real man. All that convert, that subtext about what it means to be grown up. And then you realize that he's giving directions to the Huggies.

• 2:11:39Griffin Newman?

  To pick them up just casually while speeding. The dogs are so good. Uh, I do not have any children. Uh, you, you gentlemen both do.

• 2:11:48Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 2:11:49Griffin Newman?

  I do feel like, and tell me if my read on this is wrong. This is sort of metaphorically them being like, you become a parent and then suddenly everything in your life feels like this all the time.

• 2:12:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 2:12:01Griffin Newman?

  Fuck, how do we get diapers?

• 2:12:03Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:12:04Speaker 04

  Everything is really hard and high intensity. Yeah, yeah. You feel like you're being chased by a pack of dogs all the time.

• 2:12:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:11Speaker 04

  And there's also that big dog and then there's that little dog.

• 2:12:14Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:12:14Speaker 04

  Which I kind of felt was like a reference to that Looney Tune where the bulldog and the one that jumps and comes and hey Rex or whatever, you know, those guys I'm talking about?

• 2:12:21Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely. Then there's also two stupid dogs, which was kind of a rip off of that bunker style, which was another nineties.

• 2:12:26Speaker 04

  So we're getting out of this. Alright, so what's next? I thought, but here, I just thought John Goodman and, uh, and William Forsythe were a rip, a riff on the big dog and the little dog.

• 2:12:34Griffin Newman?

  No, I agree with you.

• 2:12:34Speaker 04

  That's all.

• 2:12:35Speaker 05

  Yeah. Okay, so next is his former boss, the foreman shows up with his broken nose and his neck in a brace. And he's now threatening because he's figured out.

• 2:12:45Griffin Newman?

  He's put it together.

• 2:12:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, and he, they want the baby.

• 2:12:48Griffin Newman?

  Right, which Goodman and Forsythe are also putting together.

• 2:12:51Speaker 04

  Cause they're hearing it.

• 2:12:52Griffin Newman?

  Everyone around them now realizes they've done something wrong and I can benefit from it.

• 2:12:58Speaker 04

  You know what's up, Doc? The gig. Gig is up.

• 2:13:01Griffin Newman?

  And no one knows how to get to Albuquerque.

• 2:13:03Speaker 04

  No one knows.

• 2:13:04Griffin Newman?

  The place of salvation.

• 2:13:05Speaker 04

  Everything's been found out.

• 2:13:06Speaker 05

  Very fun fight between Goodman and Cage in the house.

• 2:13:10Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:13:10Speaker 05

  And, and just the spinning.

• 2:13:12David Sims?

  And Goodman, and it's Three Stooges.

• 2:13:14Speaker 05

  Camera work.

• 2:13:15David Sims?

  Right. Goodman's such a, like a big beaver and like Cage is this weird string bean guy, like with just like such unpredictable energy.

• 2:13:23Griffin Newman?

  The, the other thing is that this is starting to severely strain their relationship.

• 2:13:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:13:30Griffin Newman?

  The guilt of this is.

• 2:13:32David Sims?

  Which is also parenting. Like, I, I get what you're saying. Like, right. It's about this strain of parenting, like, and what it does uh, to people, like, of course, to a new relationship or whatever. I, yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense.

• 2:13:44Griffin Newman?

  Within this movie, there's the sort of ends justify the means situation of this will make us so happy that maybe we have to do something wrong in order to give us the future that we want.

• 2:13:56David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:13:57Griffin Newman?

  And by doing it the wrong way, it like eats at their relationship.

• 2:14:01David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:02Griffin Newman?

  It starts to turn them against each other. Yeah. The guilt, I think, is really kind of getting to them.

• 2:14:07David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:14:08Griffin Newman?

  And this fear of, are we going to fuck up this kid?

• 2:14:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:14:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:13David Sims?

  Um.

• 2:14:14Speaker 05

  So they make good with the baby.

• 2:14:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. Goodman, Goodman and Forsyth steal the baby.

• 2:14:18David Sims?

  Steal the baby.

• 2:14:19Speaker 04

  Instantly fall in love. They love him so much.

• 2:14:22Speaker 05

  He is very charming.

• 2:14:23Speaker 04

  They become immediate surrogate parents.

• 2:14:26Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:26Speaker 04

  That's when he's got to go buy the Huggies from the old timer.

• 2:14:30Griffin Newman?

  It's kind of a magical baby.

• 2:14:31Speaker 04

  How do you put them on? Like, and he said, well, they have these tapets and it's fairly explanatory.

• 2:14:38Griffin Newman?

  So.

• 2:14:39Speaker 04

  It's also the balloon. Do these balloons blow up in any funny shapes?

• 2:14:43Speaker 05

  And then they do the whole like countdown thing and I'll be back in five minutes.

• 2:14:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:14:48Speaker 05

  I love that recurring.

• 2:14:49Speaker 04

  They go, they go rob the bank.

• 2:14:51Griffin Newman?

  They forget that they've left the baby carrier on top of the, under the car.

• 2:14:54Speaker 04

  Huge reaction in the theater when they put that. That was such a beautiful cinematic sleight of hand.

• 2:14:59David Sims?

  Just the very image of the baby in the seat.

• 2:15:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:15:02Griffin Newman?

  And there's, by making the baby a little precocious, the sort of like hiding the face kind of thing.

• 2:15:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:15:08Griffin Newman?

  It does, uh, I think it buffers. The actual like discomfort of, yeah, you know, you're like, I, I'm, I'm accepting that you're using the baby in a manipulative way. That are fun movie stakes.

• 2:15:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:22Griffin Newman?

  While also being like, this baby could fucking baby's day out if it wanted to. It's never really gonna get hurt.

• 2:15:27David Sims?

  Smarter than anyone in a way.

• 2:15:29Griffin Newman?

  Exactly.

• 2:15:29Speaker 04

  And when, when Goodman and Forsyth realize they left the baby on top of the car, they pop out their birthing screams again.

• 2:15:35David Sims?

  So good.

• 2:15:36Speaker 04

  Which is such a like, I remember, I, well, I don't remember what I remember, but it's such a, a clue to the movie. Like, we're dealing with very primal emotions here.

• 2:15:45Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:15:45David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:15:45Speaker 04

  Like, these are primal screams that these guys are embodying.

• 2:15:48Griffin Newman?

  And, and Edwina is like sobbing in the car.

• 2:15:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:15:52Griffin Newman?

  While, you know, H I has just kind of gone numb.

• 2:15:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:15:56Griffin Newman?

  As they're trying to chase after both the baby and the, the, the gel yard buddies.

• 2:16:01David Sims?

  Like, the same time Smalls appears, presents himself to, you know, um, Arizona.

• 2:16:08Speaker 04

  Nick in Arizona.

• 2:16:08David Sims?

  Who is basically like not interested and he's like, fine, I'll just do it anyway. I'll just steal the baby. And I guess sell the baby. I guess that's his plan. Like, just not even claiming the reward.

• 2:16:18Speaker 04

  Well, he's saying, I'll do it. I'll do it for what, what, what was the reward? $20,000?

• 2:16:23David Sims?

  $50,000.

• 2:16:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, but he demands $50,000.

• 2:16:26David Sims?

  Right. It's $25,000 and he demands.

• 2:16:28Speaker 04

  He demands more because that's what the market will bear. Cause he knows, cause he was trafficked as a child or whatever. And I guess he's got the receipts.

• 2:16:35Griffin Newman?

  But you also get to the, what is kind of the line of the movie for me, which is if I'm as bad as you, what good are we to each other?

• 2:16:41David Sims?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:16:42Griffin Newman?

  It's really starting.

• 2:16:43David Sims?

  Real Coen Brothers logic too.

• 2:16:45Griffin Newman?

  To weigh down on her that she feels like they're both activating something bad in each other.

• 2:16:49David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:16:49Griffin Newman?

  That has led to this whole situation and disregard our love. Clearly this doesn't work. Yeah.

• 2:16:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:16:58David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:59Speaker 04

  Um, okay. Then there's a fight and then there's the end.

• 2:17:03David Sims?

  Yeah. I mean, well, there's the, the dye pack exploding.

• 2:17:07Speaker 04

  Another primal scream.

• 2:17:08David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:17:09Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:17:10David Sims?

  Uh, there is the big fight.

• 2:17:11Griffin Newman?

  They do this sort of armed robbery with the baby.

• 2:17:14David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:17:15Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:17:16David Sims?

  I mean, there's so much fun shit. And it's also energizing and wonderful, but to, again, to me, it's the last 15 minutes that make the movie make sense.

• 2:17:27Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:17:27David Sims?

  Because you're watching this movie kind of being like, how can this end appropriately?

• 2:17:33Griffin Newman?

  Which I, I love a movie that's, that lays out a deck of cards where you're like, there is no way for you to get out of this, okay?

• 2:17:40David Sims?

  Right, right. Because like, you're like, you're, you're like, yes, possibly they're just gonna give the baby back. But isn't that just kind of like, does, doesn't that feel a little cheap or a little like, a bit of a bummer or whatever?

• 2:17:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:53David Sims?

  You know, like, okay, can we give the baby back? Yeah, no worries.

• 2:17:56Griffin Newman?

  Just to be clear.

• 2:17:57David Sims?

  Like, well, then what was the whole movie about?

• 2:17:58Griffin Newman?

  The double layer of, I don't know how the characters are going to untangle this situation, and I don't know how the filmmakers are gonna let that untangling feel like a satisfying conclusion to whatever I've been watching.

• 2:18:09Speaker 04

  I mean, one, one thing that Looney Tunes cartoons could do, or they were, they were never tasked with sticking the landing to a two hour long feature.

• 2:18:19Griffin Newman?

  They don't have to resolve any sense of an emotional narrative.

• 2:18:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, you just fall, like, the coyote falls off the cliff for the third time.

• 2:18:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and then Bugs Bunny looks at the camera and says, fuck that guy, right?

• 2:18:31Speaker 04

  That's the famous closing catchphrase of Looney Tunes, right?

• 2:18:34Griffin Newman?

  Fuck that guy, right?

• 2:18:35Speaker 04

  Biddy, biddy, biddy, biddy, fuck that guy.

• 2:18:40Speaker 04

  Um, the, the maturity, like, defeating, uh, Leonard for High.

• 2:18:48Griffin Newman?

  Small.

• 2:18:49Speaker 04

  Speaking about the difficulty of sticking the landing to a three hour long feature.

• 2:18:54Speaker 04

  It's hard to bring it home.

• 2:18:55Griffin Newman?

  It is.

• 2:18:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:18:56David Sims?

  Feels like some sort of, like, Siege Perilous that High passes through successfully.

• 2:19:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:19:02David Sims?

  And in the sort of magic realism, magical thinking of this movie, because obviously what happens, just to very quickly summarize, is they return the baby. Uh, Nathan Arizona is like, it's all good. I understand that you did this out of love, even though you're stupid.

• 2:19:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:17David Sims?

  And then High says that he had a dream of first of-

• 2:19:21Speaker 04

  Well, Nathan Arizona sees that they still have love, even though they have given up on their own love.

• 2:19:25David Sims?

  You guys shouldn't give up on each other either, right? And High dreams first of just watching Nathan Jr.'s life, you know, from afar, right? But then also dreams of being greeted by his own grandchildren.

• 2:19:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:37David Sims?

  In a sequence that makes me-

• 2:19:39Speaker 04

  Uh, water comes out of my eyes. And I'm like, what is this feeling?

• 2:19:42Griffin Newman?

  And Arizona has also said to them, like, he plays this so fucking well in the arcs of it, of him being like, who are you? We brought the baby back. Don't ask questions. Can we say goodbye? He from behind. He's not even looking at their faces.

• 2:19:59Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:19:59Griffin Newman?

  Sees the emotion in their body language, their relationship to each other, where he's like, you're the ones who took him. And he's not even angry, even though they had framed it as we saved the baby from Smalls originally.

• 2:20:10Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:20:11Griffin Newman?

  Where he's just like, something profound emotional has happened here, and I'm just grateful that you came around to doing the right thing. And then he is so quickly kind of bereft at the idea that they're about to torpedo the relationship.

• 2:20:22Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:20:23Griffin Newman?

  Where he's like, whatever's happened here is a sign of something honest.

• 2:20:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:20:27Griffin Newman?

  And they're sort of like, her infertility has driven us crazy. We don't understand how we have a future for this relationship.

• 2:20:33Speaker 04

  One of the, one of the things about this movie that a lot of stylized, mannered movies by different directors that came afterward that were primarily preoccupied with men's ambiguity about growing up. This movie is really about a woman genuinely wanting to be a mother.

• 2:20:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:50Speaker 04

  In a very sincere way.

• 2:20:52Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:20:52Speaker 04

  And it's a, it's a stark difference from some of the meta sort of crimey.

• 2:20:58Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:20:58Speaker 04

  Like wackadoo movies that would come out in the nineties in its wake to a degree.

• 2:21:02Griffin Newman?

  But Nathan says to them, like, you gotta just keep trying, which is what my wife and I did.

• 2:21:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:21:09Griffin Newman?

  Despite this character, this actor only being 37 years old, he reads like a fucking 70 year old man, right? And so him saying like, we kept trying and you hope that medical science catches up to you, and it caught up to us with a vengeance, which gives H I. The ability to dream of like, one way or another, we're gonna have a family.

• 2:21:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:21:27Griffin Newman?

  There is a way to make this happen.

• 2:21:28Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:21:29Griffin Newman?

  You know?

• 2:21:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:21:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:31Speaker 04

  And I do feel like the magical thinking of this movie is like, something has happened in defeating Leonard and saving this baby and making the like, like, it's maybe things can be different for them. We don't know how.

• 2:21:43Griffin Newman?

  The dragon and returning back to your village. Yeah.

• 2:21:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:21:47David Sims?

  Um.

• 2:21:48Speaker 05

  It's really funny that Gail and Evol returned to prison through the hole that they dug out.

• 2:21:53David Sims?

  So cute.

• 2:21:55Griffin Newman?

  They gotta go back through the poop.

• 2:21:56Speaker 04

  But that's in his, that's in his mind, but I believe that it happened, for sure.

• 2:22:00Speaker 05

  Same, same.

• 2:22:01Speaker 04

  They weren't ready to be born.

• 2:22:02Speaker 05

  Glenn gets arrested for being an asshole to Polish people.

• 2:22:06David Sims?

  An excellent bit of comeuppance for him.

• 2:22:07Griffin Newman?

  Sergeant Kowalski.

• 2:22:08Speaker 04

  Sergeant Kowalski.

• 2:22:10Griffin Newman?

  And I just, I like this idea it gets at, that like, in some way, this experience that could not be literally processed by a baby, will have some lasting effect on Nathan Jr. That sets him apart from his brothers and sisters.

• 2:22:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I, I think it's a valuable lesson for the baby, and I, I wasn't a parent when I saw it. I've seen, I've seen it many times since being a parent, and I realized, oh, that is why we drove around with our kids on top of the car so many times, because we wanted to give them that experience. And they don't remember it, but I think they benefit from it.

• 2:22:48David Sims?

  Absolutely. He's such a good parent.

• 2:22:50Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:22:50Griffin Newman?

  And the final line of-

• 2:22:51Speaker 04

  David, Utah, by the way.

• 2:22:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. The, the, the picturing-

• 2:22:56Speaker 04

  Let that horse in here.

• 2:22:57Griffin Newman?

  Being old, having the grandchildren, Thanksgiving table. It feels like home, if not Arizona, someplace far away. Right, where, where children and the parents are loved or whatever, and everything is warm. I don't know, maybe Utah.

• 2:23:12Speaker 04

  So great.

• 2:23:13Griffin Newman?

  It's just such a good final joke.

• 2:23:15David Sims?

  Absolutely. I mean, how do you not walk out of the movie just walking-

• 2:23:19Speaker 04

  On air.

• 2:23:20David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:23:20Griffin Newman?

  I did, like, basically 90 Minutes soaking wet.

• 2:23:23Speaker 04

  I walked, I walked out on air, and I was completely, as a creative, I mean, I was, I was, I was, I think I was turning 16 that year.

• 2:23:33Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 2:23:33Speaker 04

  But I mean, it's like, I, I don't think I've ever stopped thinking about that movie since I saw it. And it was incredible.

• 2:23:39Griffin Newman?

  You are such a, a dear friend of the show. And we often go like, fuck. We should ask Hodgman. It's been a little too long, right?

• 2:23:47Speaker 04

  About once a year. It's like, what's up with Hodgman?

• 2:23:50Griffin Newman?

  But there are, there are things like Dune where like the second Lynch one, March Madness, we were like, well, that it's, it's a no brainer. It's a non question. You're the first person I ask, right? There are things like Evil Dead 2 or struggling to find someone. We were like, wait a second, Hodgman. And you were like, absolutely.

• 2:24:04Speaker 04

  I don't know why that was a struggle, but okay.

• 2:24:06Griffin Newman?

  But there's also, there've been things like A Master Builder, which many people say is one of our best episodes. That was like, we cannot imagine anyone who would want to come on this episode.

• 2:24:14Speaker 04

  That was our, that was our Raising Arizona.

• 2:24:15David Sims?

  That is one of the greats.

• 2:24:17Speaker 04

  We went, we went weird hard and we did not care about any, any, there were no rules in that room.

• 2:24:22David Sims?

  Top of every Reddit thread that's like, you know, re-listenable.

• 2:24:27Griffin Newman?

  Do us the solid show up and we trust that with you in the room, we will figure out how to make this an episode that people will want to listen to without hearing this, right? Uh, uh, our friends from, uh, The Flophouse.

• 2:24:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:24:38Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Stuart Wellington in particular.

• 2:24:40Speaker 04

  Dan McCoy, Elliot Kalin, co-host of iPodius with John Hodgman. Go on.

• 2:24:43Griffin Newman?

  They had been trying to do some sort of New York movie podcaster and such meetup, which we'd done in past years and kind of fallen away by the pandemic.

• 2:24:52Speaker 04

  Stu's Bar on 12th Street and 5th Avenue.

• 2:24:55Griffin Newman?

  New wife, but the, the, uh, new bar with his wife. What am I saying? Not new wife.

• 2:24:59Speaker 04

  New bar, old wife.

• 2:25:00Griffin Newman?

  Longstanding wife. Um, but the, the we hate movies guys and Matt Singer and you.

• 2:25:05Speaker 04

  What are we doing here? What's?

• 2:25:06Griffin Newman?

  I know. We had been struggling to solve the Raising Arizona scheduling problem, even though this is such a big movie where we're like, it's weird. No one's asking for this one.

• 2:25:14Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 2:25:15Griffin Newman?

  And yet it's such a big film that it feels like we can't just wantonly throw someone on it without it being worthy, you know?

• 2:25:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:25:22Griffin Newman?

  And you're at the bar and you're heading out and I was like, by the way, we have to get you on. We haven't done since Dune. Coens? And you go like, I mean, Raising Arizona. And I was like, yeah, great. I text David. I'm like, we've solved it. Raising Arizona, right?

• 2:25:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:25:40Griffin Newman?

  And then I tell you like scheduling this and that. We figure out the puzzle. You get back, you land.

• 2:25:44Speaker 04

  Here, here we are.

• 2:25:45Griffin Newman?

  You send a long text and you're like, gentlemen, I just want you to know, I'm not trying to throw around my weight. I don't want to be greedy. I think of myself as a utility player in the, the, the, uh, tapestry of your show.

• 2:25:56Speaker 04

  I just figured people would be clamoring for all the Coen movies and that two or three of your regs. Uh, we're probably going for Raising Arizona anyway.

• 2:26:05Griffin Newman?

  I just thought it was such a gentleman's move that even after we said, yes, please, you went, I don't want to take it away from someone else, know that I would gladly go on any episode, whichever one you're having the hardest time booking. And I said, you are lucky that this is the one we are having the hardest time booking. And also that is one that you clearly have such a formative relationship.

• 2:26:24Speaker 04

  I guess it was meant to be.

• 2:26:25Griffin Newman?

  We just, we love you. We thank you.

• 2:26:27Speaker 04

  Let me say something. I love you all.

• 2:26:29Griffin Newman?

  You've always been of such great value to us as a friend.

• 2:26:31Speaker 04

  Thank you very much.

• 2:26:32Griffin Newman?

  As a person, a friend of the show.

• 2:26:33Speaker 04

  I'm very glad you're all alive.

• 2:26:36Griffin Newman?

  The ultimate compliment.

• 2:26:37Speaker 04

  Thanks, John.

• 2:26:37Griffin Newman?

  Decade of dreams.

• 2:26:38Speaker 04

  I hope it stays that way for a while.

• 2:26:39David Sims?

  Look, this film came out, uh, on, in February of 1987, but we're not doing that weekend. And let me tell you why.

• 2:26:48Speaker 04

  Why?

• 2:26:48David Sims?

  I'm sorry, March, uh, oh, no, that.

• 2:26:50Speaker 04

  Well, I think it opened small and then opened wide.

• 2:26:54David Sims?

  Yeah, it opened, uh, on one theater at March 13th, 1987. We're not doing that weekend because that is the weekend of Evil Dead 2, an episode that John literally was on.

• 2:27:02Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 2:27:03David Sims?

  So I'm going to do it.

• 2:27:04Speaker 04

  It was a big year for Hodgman.

• 2:27:06David Sims?

  It's big, wide weekend.

• 2:27:07Speaker 04

  In the world.

• 2:27:08David Sims?

  It's adding hundreds of theaters.

• 2:27:09Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:27:10David Sims?

  April 10th, 1987.

• 2:27:11Griffin Newman?

  Insane to think about these two movies being in theaters at the same time.

• 2:27:14David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:27:15David Sims?

  Where it.

• 2:27:15Speaker 04

  It was definitely April when I saw it. I'd not seen it in March.

• 2:27:18David Sims?

  Uh, it hits 2 million. The film ultimately ends up grossing $22 million, which is a lot of money.

• 2:27:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:25David Sims?

  Uh, and according to the numbers, 767 whole dollars internationally. My guess is they just don't have a lot of data.

• 2:27:31Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:27:32David Sims?

  Uh, but number one at the box, it's number seven.

• 2:27:34Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:27:35David Sims?

  So number one at the box office, Griffin, is a.

• 2:27:38Griffin Newman?

  April 87.

• 2:27:39David Sims?

  A comedy, uh, sort of a youthful comedy, I guess.

• 2:27:43Griffin Newman?

  But it's not a teen comedy.

• 2:27:45David Sims?

  Well, that's why I'm struggling to call this a teen. It's this actor who's kind of transitioning from teen to youngish, you know, adulty guy.

• 2:27:54Griffin Newman?

  Is it a frat packer? Is it a Hughes person?

• 2:27:56David Sims?

  No.

• 2:27:56Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:27:57David Sims?

  Who's the other one in that era who made, you know, who was like a star?

• 2:28:00Griffin Newman?

  Young star? Yeah. Yeah. It's not Cruz.

• 2:28:04David Sims?

  No, comedy.

• 2:28:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, comedy. It's not an outsider's boy. I'm trying to think of who's the other one who's making the transition in the eighties. He's mostly comedy, but he's trying to broaden?

• 2:28:16David Sims?

  This is a comedy. This movie is a comedy.

• 2:28:18Griffin Newman?

  This movie's a comedy.

• 2:28:18David Sims?

  He became a gigantic star, gigantic, gigantic star, two years ago with a huge hit movie. He's a big TV star.

• 2:28:25Griffin Newman?

  In eighty-five, you're saying. Oh, this is Michael J. Fox?

• 2:28:28David Sims?

  That's right, but what's the film?

• 2:28:29Griffin Newman?

  Is this Secret of My Success?

• 2:28:30David Sims?

  The Secret of My Success. I've never seen it. Neither have I. Herbert Ross, of course, is a sort of legendary director, but near the end of his career.

• 2:28:39Griffin Newman?

  It's kind of a largely forgotten movie that you look at, it's box office grosses, and you were just like, man, Michael J. Fox was just-

• 2:28:45David Sims?

  It was a giant hit.

• 2:28:46Griffin Newman?

  So beloved at the time that people were going to see anything he did.

• 2:28:50David Sims?

  And it had that Night Ranger song.

• 2:28:53Griffin Newman?

  Sister Christian?

• 2:28:54David Sims?

  No, The Secret of My Success.

• 2:28:55Griffin Newman?

  Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

• 2:29:00David Sims?

  Um, so that's opening to, it's new this week, seven million, seven point seven million dollars. Number four at the box office is a sequel, comedy sequel.

• 2:29:08Griffin Newman?

  Okay. In nineteen eighty-seven, comedy sequel.

• 2:29:12David Sims?

  Comedy sequel.

• 2:29:13Griffin Newman?

  Is it a two?

• 2:29:14David Sims?

  Nope. Is it a three? Nope.

• 2:29:16Griffin Newman?

  Is it a police academy?

• 2:29:17David Sims?

  It is.

• 2:29:17Griffin Newman?

  Is it a four?

• 2:29:18David Sims?

  That's right.

• 2:29:18Griffin Newman?

  Is it Mission Moscow?

• 2:29:19David Sims?

  Nope.

• 2:29:20Griffin Newman?

  I always get them wrong. Fuck. Is it Citizens on Patrol?

• 2:29:22David Sims?

  Citizens are on patrol today for the Police Academy four. I just realized Citizens on Patrol spells out C O P. There you go.

• 2:29:30Griffin Newman?

  Fuck. That is good.

• 2:29:36David Sims?

  There's a lot to unpack in this. I haven't seen that film. I've never seen a single police academy.

• 2:29:39Griffin Newman?

  Same. I've seen scenes.

• 2:29:41David Sims?

  Sure. I don't think I've-

• 2:29:42Griffin Newman?

  I'd flip through and catch a sequence in TNT.

• 2:29:44David Sims?

  One character who's a little bit of a, has the gift of the gab.

• 2:29:48Griffin Newman?

  Well, the gift of the gab or the gift of the-

• 2:29:50David Sims?

  Gift of the sound effects.

• 2:29:51Griffin Newman?

  Pew, pew, pew.

• 2:29:52David Sims?

  That guy.

• 2:29:53Griffin Newman?

  I'd say that's not gabbing. I'd say that's-

• 2:29:56David Sims?

  But it's like his mouth. Magic mouth. Meow, meow. Number three at the box office is- Michael Winslow's still alive, right?

• 2:30:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:05David Sims?

  Good, I'm glad.

• 2:30:06Griffin Newman?

  Thank God.

• 2:30:07David Sims?

  Is he?

• 2:30:07Griffin Newman?

  I am all but certain. And if not, I'm gonna have to come up with different evening plans.

• 2:30:12David Sims?

  He's alive as hell.

• 2:30:13Griffin Newman?

  Thank you.

• 2:30:14David Sims?

  This guy is so alive.

• 2:30:15Speaker 04

  I'm glad. I'm glad of that.

• 2:30:17David Sims?

  Nice, lovely Wikipedia picture, full color, looks great.

• 2:30:20Griffin Newman?

  I pray he doesn't die by the time this episode comes out.

• 2:30:22David Sims?

  Christ. Okay, number three at the box office, a romantic comedy.

• 2:30:25Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:30:25David Sims?

  From a legendary director.

• 2:30:27Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:30:27David Sims?

  With a legendary star, but at this point, he's a fairly new star.

• 2:30:30Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 2:30:31David Sims?

  Uh, this is a movie that got very bad reviews, but it did okay.

• 2:30:35Griffin Newman?

  Is this one of the Bruce Willis movies?

• 2:30:36David Sims?

  It is a Bruce Willis film.

• 2:30:37Griffin Newman?

  Is this Blind Date?

• 2:30:38David Sims?

  It's Blake Edwards's Blind Date.

• 2:30:40Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 2:30:41David Sims?

  With Bruce Willis and Kim Basinger.

• 2:30:42Griffin Newman?

  Blake Edwards did the two Bruce movies back to back that were meant to be the moonlighting transition to movie stardom, and they both don't work.

• 2:30:50David Sims?

  Sunset, of course, being the other one.

• 2:30:52Griffin Newman?

  Uh, which is sort of a crime, old timey crime comedy.

• 2:30:56David Sims?

  Yep.

• 2:30:57Griffin Newman?

  Uh, and then Blind Date, which was kind of a hit, but was just sort of like, I don't know if this guy's gonna go the distance.

• 2:31:02Speaker 04

  These were pre-Die Hard, both of them?

• 2:31:03Griffin Newman?

  And then the following year is Die Hard, and people go, holy shit.

• 2:31:06David Sims?

  Holy shit. Number four at the box office is the re-release of an animated film.

• 2:31:13Griffin Newman?

  I assume from the fine folks at Walt Disney, too?

• 2:31:15David Sims?

  That's correct.

• 2:31:16Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:31:17David Sims?

  I put this on for my daughter once, and she could not have been less interested in it.

• 2:31:20Griffin Newman?

  Interesting, okay.

• 2:31:22David Sims?

  Sort of confirmed my, me, what I remember about it, which is a, it was never a movie I liked very much, but I think it has its fans.

• 2:31:28Speaker 04

  Is it a classic, classic?

• 2:31:29David Sims?

  Seventies.

• 2:31:30Griffin Newman?

  Is it like The Aristocats?

• 2:31:31David Sims?

  It is not just like The Aristocats, but is The Aristocats.

• 2:31:34Griffin Newman?

  I would almost say that no movie is more like The Aristocats than The Aristocats.

• 2:31:39David Sims?

  Uh, yeah, a movie I put on, because those Reitherman movies are often interesting. I put it on, it has that sort of very shaggy, you know, animation style, but I would admit I too was always like, yeah, I never really loved this one.

• 2:31:51Griffin Newman?

  Reitherman era is my favorite Disney animation studios era, and yet, that is the one that I feel like I never revisit and have no inclination to. I remember being at a young age where I had learned, I'd started learning about how stories work, and my parents explained to me what morals were, especially when you're watching children's entertainment, and most movie try, movies try to give you a lesson.

• 2:32:13David Sims?

  You told this story before, but it's a really good story.

• 2:32:14Griffin Newman?

  And my older cousin walked in on me watching The Aristocats and I got to the end and I looked at him, I was like befuddled and I was like, "So what's the moral of this story?" And he went, "I don't know, everyone wants to be a cat."

• 2:32:24David Sims?

  He nailed it.

• 2:32:26Griffin Newman?

  Which is just the song they're singing at the end, where he was like my disaffected, older, like fucking 20-year-old cousin, I was like, "I don't know, everybody wants to be a cat." I don't think this movie's about anything.

• 2:32:36David Sims?

  101 Dalmatians, Sword in the Stone, Jungle Book, I feel like Robin Hood, those are the peaks of the rythm of the world. Uh, number five at the box office is a giant action hit, uh, first in a long-running series.

• 2:32:47Speaker 04

  Talk about crush-worthy animated characters, that Robin Hood fox, everyone goes hot for him.

• 2:32:52Griffin Newman?

  You might be surprised to hear that Maid Marian Fox and Robin Hood was what I cited to my girlfriend.

• 2:32:57Speaker 04

  Jesus cock, those are some hot foxes.

• 2:33:00Griffin Newman?

  Is it Predator?

• 2:33:01David Sims?

  No.

• 2:33:02Speaker 04

  What was it again?

• 2:33:03Griffin Newman?

  Is it Action Lethal Weapon?

• 2:33:05David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:33:05Griffin Newman?

  There we go.

• 2:33:06David Sims?

  Richard Donner's Lethal Weapon. You've also got Platoon, still in the top, uh, 10.

• 2:33:12Griffin Newman?

  From Winning Best Picture the year before.

• 2:33:13David Sims?

  From Winning Best Picture the year before. You've got a little film called Raising Arizona. You have Barry Levinson's Tin Men.

• 2:33:19Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 2:33:20David Sims?

  Uh, which is fun.

• 2:33:21Griffin Newman?

  Amanda Knox's dad's favorite movie?

• 2:33:24Griffin Newman?

  It's a runner on Big Picture as they're doing their 25 for 25, where he keeps saying, "Where have you ranked Tin Men?" And she keeps having to tell her dad.

• 2:33:33David Sims?

  You said Amanda Knox, you meant Amanda Dobbins. Amanda Knox, of course, is the woman who was accused of murdering someone in Italy.

• 2:33:39Griffin Newman?

  In a group text.

• 2:33:40David Sims?

  I was like, Amanda Knox's dad, I was, it's like I swang at a ball that was all the way over there.

• 2:33:46Griffin Newman?

  So sorry, in a group text containing Sean Fennessey, we were all joking about the fact that her middle name is Knox.

• 2:33:53David Sims?

  And, uh, and her son is named Knox for this reason.

• 2:33:56Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:33:56David Sims?

  Um, but you're like, Amanda Knox's dad's favorite movie?

• 2:34:00Griffin Newman?

  I'm sorry.

• 2:34:01David Sims?

  Huh?

• 2:34:03Griffin Newman?

  But also, maybe it is.

• 2:34:05David Sims?

  We'll have to check.

• 2:34:06Griffin Newman?

  The bit on Big Picture is he keeps going, "Where are you gonna rank Tin Men?" And she goes, "Nowhere, and also it came out in the 80s."

• 2:34:13David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:34:13Griffin Newman?

  The assignment is movies since 2000.

• 2:34:17Speaker 04

  Where are you gonna rank Tin Men?

• 2:34:18David Sims?

  Uh, yeah, a fun movie, a fun little movie.

• 2:34:21Griffin Newman?

  Never seen it.

• 2:34:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:23Speaker 04

  This is a really mixed bag.

• 2:34:25David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:26Speaker 04

  No wonder Charles and I went to see Raising Arizona, I wouldn't have seen any of these movies.

• 2:34:29David Sims?

  What, what, Lethal Weapon, not so good for you? Uh, never saw it. Okay, number nine at the box, it's pretty good. Number nine at the box office is Nightmare on Elm Street 3, Dream Warriors, great movie.

• 2:34:39Griffin Newman?

  Do we both agree the best one?

• 2:34:41David Sims?

  Uh, that's a very complicated question for me.

• 2:34:44Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:34:45David Sims?

  I think the first is the best one.

• 2:34:46Griffin Newman?

  The song from that one was a meow, meow, meow, meow.

• 2:34:50David Sims?

  Great song.

• 2:34:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:51David Sims?

  I think it's the best of the sequels. I think the first one has kind of crazy magic to it and is actually scary. I enjoy all other Freddy movies, but none of them are scary.

• 2:35:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:02David Sims?

  The first one is scary.

• 2:35:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:04David Sims?

  Like, it's really disturbing and the way he films the dreams are so cool.

• 2:35:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:07David Sims?

  Uh, the third one, though, is the best of the, hey, if these movies take place in the dream world, they should be wild and fantastic and weird.

• 2:35:15Griffin Newman?

  But you're right, it's starting to become almost a little more of an action movie.

• 2:35:17David Sims?

  Dream Warriors is where it, but the second movie's obviously so strange and such a weird object. And three is like, yeah, like, let's make a fantasy movie.

• 2:35:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it just fucking rolls. It's so cool.

• 2:35:27David Sims?

  It does roll. It does roll.

• 2:35:27Griffin Newman?

  It's so much fun.

• 2:35:28David Sims?

  Uh, number 10 is the Hugh Wilson comedy Burglar starring Whoopi Goldberg and Bobcat Goldthwait, a film I have never seen.

• 2:35:35Griffin Newman?

  This is a big weekend for Bobcat.

• 2:35:37Speaker 04

  I know, I was just gonna say, two in the top 10.

• 2:35:39Griffin Newman?

  Cause he's on patrol and he's burgling.

• 2:35:41David Sims?

  I, this is kind of Bobcat's peak, right? Or, I mean, like.

• 2:35:46Speaker 04

  Hot to Trot, I would say, was really the.

• 2:35:48Griffin Newman?

  But, but that's also.

• 2:35:50David Sims?

  Hot to Trot.

• 2:35:51Griffin Newman?

  We're going downhill.

• 2:35:52David Sims?

  Hot to Trot is a year later.

• 2:35:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:54Speaker 04

  I'm only saying that. I love Bobcat Goldthwait, obviously a wonderful guy, wonderful director.

• 2:35:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:59Speaker 04

  You know?

• 2:35:59David Sims?

  But he definitely is a guy where you're like, huh, when he was a movie star, things didn't always work out so good for Hot to Trot or Shake the Sky.

• 2:36:04Speaker 04

  People didn't know what to make of Bobcat Goldthwait.

• 2:36:07Griffin Newman?

  He's talked about that too, where he's like, you really think a whole movie of this is gonna work? And they were just like, money!

• 2:36:13Speaker 04

  I just saw a trailer for Hot to Trot at the Nighthawk, that's why it was on my mind. I'm not thinking about it all the time. I don't know why they were showing that trailer.

• 2:36:18Griffin Newman?

  I should go see Hot to Trot. David?

• 2:36:21David Sims?

  Uh, that's the 10. Uh, yeah, I gave you the 10. It's a pretty, pretty good 10, although John apparently is completely dissatisfied.

• 2:36:28Griffin Newman?

  He bodied the 10.

• 2:36:30David Sims?

  I guess Citizens on Patrol and Aristocats re-release is not the most thrilling.

• 2:36:35Griffin Newman?

  That's at times worst of times.

• 2:36:36David Sims?

  Right. Uh, and I've never seen Blind Date. Uh, this film obviously was a big hit. And well received, but we have, as we discussed, some critics still looking askance at the Coens for being a little slick and a little possibly patronizing, although I don't think they are.

• 2:36:51Griffin Newman?

  Here's my complaint about the Coens. Are they too good at making movies?

• 2:36:55David Sims?

  Well, honestly, that is what a lot of Coen reviews boil down to.

• 2:37:00Griffin Newman?

  It's a little suspicious.

• 2:37:01David Sims?

  Honestly, even post-success.

• 2:37:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:37:04David Sims?

  Like, once they're deep in their success, sometimes people are like, can they stop being so impressive?

• 2:37:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:10David Sims?

  Like, I want to actually watch the movie. And I'm like, why don't you just watch some?

• 2:37:13Griffin Newman?

  What are they up to making perfect movies?

• 2:37:15Speaker 04

  There are some perfectly executed movies, beyond perfectly executed, sort of like mind-bogglingly well-made and acted, that I can't, they're a barren place where my seed will find no purchase. Because I feel like they don't need a viewer, essentially.

• 2:37:32David Sims?

  Such as?

• 2:37:33Speaker 04

  Well, this is my very controversial hot take that I was reserving for off-mic later.

• 2:37:38Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:37:39Speaker 04

  But because of my love for you guys and the podcast, and many, many people loving these films that I had never seen, I've been watching the later Mission's Impossible.

• 2:37:50Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 2:37:51Speaker 04

  And they're absolutely glorious, but I'm, I just, they're just bouncing off my eyeballs. Because I just feel like there's no need-

• 2:37:59David Sims?

  That sounds like something Ethan Hunt should do.

• 2:38:00Speaker 04

  For anyone in this.

• 2:38:01David Sims?

  Bounce off the big eye.

• 2:38:02Griffin Newman?

  That'd be a good stunt. Hodgman, can you tell us the burn after reading?

• 2:38:06David Sims?

  Burn after reading, and then-

• 2:38:07Griffin Newman?

  Finish your point.

• 2:38:08Speaker 04

  Well, I was just gonna say, like, all of the Coen, even though they are virtuosic-

• 2:38:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:13Speaker 04

  And even though they are sometimes very cold, I feel like there's room for me in this movie.

• 2:38:18Griffin Newman?

  I watch all of their movies so much, and I find them very comforting, even the ones that are dark or intense.

• 2:38:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:38:23Griffin Newman?

  And I do think it's because there is a core humanism to them that I find comforting.

• 2:38:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:38:28Griffin Newman?

  Amidst the chaos.

• 2:38:30Speaker 04

  I, when I, my life was kidnapped by television and then by commercials for Apple.

• 2:38:36Griffin Newman?

  How rude.

• 2:38:38Speaker 04

  And all of a sudden, I, all of my dumb, pretentious dreams of watching movies suddenly became like, I could be in them.

• 2:38:49Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:38:50Speaker 04

  And I said, when I got representation, they're like, what do you want to do? Like, who do you want to? They were like, you know, you can do anything now. You're in an ad.

• 2:38:58Speaker 04

  It's a different. You were all over America. But they were like, they were like, you know, we can, we can try to make some things happen for you. What, what are your, and I was like, I'd like to be in Battlestar Galactica.

• 2:39:08Speaker 04

  And if I were to make any movie, it would be with the Coen brothers. Anything, I'll do anything. And I was, uh, uh, invited to audition for Burn After Reading. Makes perfect sense. Several roles in that I could see you fitting. There's a very small role at the beginning of the film where I. Jeffrey Damone is the doctor? No. Interesting. Honestly, I don't know that I've ever seen that movie because I was sad that I couldn't be in it. Wow. And that's, and there's, that's why I was able to be tricked later. Okay. So I auditioned for them. They were like, it was really a big deal. They were sitting right across from me. Wow. And I was playing some kind of Mormon FBI agent or something at the very beginning of the movie. Interesting. We will revisit soon.

• 2:39:53Speaker 04

  And I did not get the role. Sure. I don't know who got the role because I never saw it. Wow. A little scarred. Hurts too much. And I was telling this story on the set of the Apple ads.

• 2:40:06Speaker 04

  After it was clear I was not going to get the role, but I was like, I was excited about it. I was telling Justin about it. And the, yeah, Justin Long. And the guy who I get Jeff, who operated the boom mic. He was always getting on me. Jeff, like one thing I learned, and this is, you know, this is a big whistling movie, Raising Arizona. I would whistle on set.

• 2:40:30Speaker 04

  Just to keep myself company. And Jeff would always say, and I understand this because he's the boom operator. He's listening to everything. He said, you know, what's funny about whistling? The only person who enjoys whistling is the person who's whistling. Good line. I'm like, oh, Jeff. So he heard everything I said about this. And the next time I came into work, he said, yeah, I asked around and I found out who got that part. Maybe the movie was filming at that point, right? Hadn't even released. Cause I had previously told a story about this actor. Running into this or seeing this actor in, in a, in an airport. So Jeff was putting things together, a counter narrative. And he said, yeah, I found out who got that part. Lonnie Anderson.

• 2:41:10Speaker 04

  And then for a moment, I was like, oh, well, great. I mean, if they wanted Lonnie Anderson, that's no comment on my acting. Like, I understand they wanted to go in a different direction. So thanks a lot, Jeff. He's like, no, I'm just fucking with you. It's with Lonnie Anderson.

• 2:41:24David Sims?

  It was actually someone called Hamilton Clancy.

• 2:41:26Speaker 04

  Hamilton Clancy got the role. So I was one of those who was left off the Cohen train and I never even got on it.

• 2:41:33Griffin Newman?

  I had just for True Grit, but I didn't get to read for them.

• 2:41:36David Sims?

  Question about Hamilton Clancy, is he still with us?

• 2:41:39Speaker 04

  Oh, fuck, he better be.

• 2:41:42Griffin Newman?

  Hold on.

• 2:41:43Speaker 04

  Jesus, Cock, that's a hot setup.

• 2:41:45David Sims?

  It looks like he is.

• 2:41:46Speaker 04

  Oh, as far as I can tell.

• 2:41:47David Sims?

  He doesn't have like a Wikipedia page.

• 2:41:49Speaker 04

  I'm glad he's alive.

• 2:41:51David Sims?

  Great.

• 2:41:52Griffin Newman?

  John, thank you for being here. Thank you for being the ultimate utility man and serving our needs.

• 2:41:55Speaker 04

  What a stupid story to end on. I apologize.

• 2:41:57Griffin Newman?

  Is there anything additional you want to plug? You talked about your new podcast with Jennifer Arney.

• 2:42:01Speaker 04

  E Pluribus Motto, available at Maximum Fun, along with Judge John Hodgman, always available on Wednesdays on Maximum Fun. Uh, Dick Town is still available on Hulu. David Reese, a friend of the show.

• 2:42:12David Sims?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:42:12Speaker 04

  And I are working on a new secret project, but I can't say anything about it because maybe nothing will ever happen.

• 2:42:16David Sims?

  James Bond.

• 2:42:17Speaker 04

  Uh, could be.

• 2:42:19David Sims?

  They're gonna do it.

• 2:42:20Griffin Newman?

  Denis Villeneuve directing a script by John Hodgman and David Reese.

• 2:42:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm a.

• 2:42:25David Sims?

  Reese is gonna play Bond and John will be the villain.

• 2:42:27Speaker 04

  No, I'm a fresh new take on Money Penny.

• 2:42:29David Sims?

  Yeah, oh, yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

• 2:42:31Speaker 04

  Uh, Vacation Land and Medallion Stairs out in whatever. Hodgman.substack.com if you want to listen to me read aloud from Moby Dick. That's something that's happening. Hodgman.substack.com. Whatever you can find. If you go to there and you subscribe, it's free and you'll find out about all the dumb stuff I'm doing. Uh, if you want, and that's a good place to find out about it.

• 2:42:51Griffin Newman?

  Everyone should want. Uh, Ben has asked to do the end as always. As I wind this show down, Ben, I want to hand you something. It will have been a couple of months past by the time this episode comes out, but Ben recently celebrated a milestone birthday.

• 2:43:06Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, that's right.

• 2:43:07Griffin Newman?

  And I commissioned a present for him from friend of the podcast, Kell and Chat.

• 2:43:13Griffin Newman?

  Uh, worked on the Ninja Turtle Mute Mayhem movie and Spider-Verse and did a piece for our art show.

• 2:43:20Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 2:43:20Griffin Newman?

  And when we had the art show opening in March, he said, "You know what I thought would be kind of a good idea for a painting?" And I said, "Can you please do this for Ben's birthday?"

• 2:43:28Speaker 04

  And Ben is now getting a scissors, a pair of scissors?

• 2:43:32Griffin Newman?

  I think Ben will immediately be able to identify what he has done. But I want to just shout out Kell and Jet for having this notion, seeing it through.

• 2:43:42Speaker 05

  Sorry, it's well packaged?

• 2:43:44Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's to his credit, it's to his credit.

• 2:43:46Speaker 04

  And when you're editing, make sure to keep in all the awkward silence.

• 2:43:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:43:49Griffin Newman?

  Maybe mix in a little bit of David's cup of ice as well, the cover at the time.

• 2:43:53Speaker 04

  Cut my story out about auditions or whatever.

• 2:43:55Griffin Newman?

  Keep it in, do it like six times. Maybe layer it in while he's opening the package again, kind of as an echo.

• 2:44:06Speaker 04

  When I went into the audition, uh, I wore a suit.

• 2:44:11Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 2:44:12Speaker 04

  And, uh, cause I thought, that's what you did. And I can't remember what Joel or Ethan said.

• 2:44:16Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 2:44:16Speaker 04

  You dressed up for the audition.

• 2:44:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:18Speaker 05

  Oh my fucking god.

• 2:44:20Speaker 04

  Oh, here we are.

• 2:44:21Speaker 05

  Alright, so number one, we have...

• 2:44:23Griffin Newman?

  He included some bonus sketches, I think some test sketches.

• 2:44:26Speaker 05

  So...

• 2:44:26Griffin Newman?

  To land on the final product.

• 2:44:28Speaker 05

  It is, I pictured as the, uh, young man, who I believe kind of opens Gummo.

• 2:44:36Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:44:37Speaker 05

  Uh, it's the rabbit ear wearing young man.

• 2:44:40Griffin Newman?

  It is a painting of Ben.

• 2:44:42Speaker 05

  Wow, a painting of me.

• 2:44:43Griffin Newman?

  The kid from Gummo.

• 2:44:45Speaker 05

  Sitting, uh, on a highway overpass, smoking a cig. Wow, this is a really cherished thing. This is awesome. Thank you.

• 2:44:53Speaker 04

  Beautiful. Wow.

• 2:44:54Speaker 05

  Happy birthday.

• 2:44:55Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:44:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:44:56Griffin Newman?

  Uh...

• 2:44:57Speaker 04

  Glad you're alive.

• 2:44:57Griffin Newman?

  Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Miller's Crossing.

• 2:45:03Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Another movie that I love. Pretty good one.

• 2:45:06Griffin Newman?

  Ben, anything you want to say to end the episode?

• 2:45:08Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, um, and as always...

• 2:45:19Speaker 04

  Fuck that guy.

• 2:45:28Speaker 02

  Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hostly. Our creative producer is Marie Bardis Salinas, and our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lain Montgomery and The Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check Special Features

• 2:46:10Speaker 02

  for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social @BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.