Close Encounters of the Third Kind with J.D. Amato

Five curious tones. A mountain of mashed potatoes. Bob Balaban with a beard speaking french. After the industry-changing success of JAWS, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND feels like a classic “blank check.” But it’s a little more nuanced than that! JD Amato returns for his 10th mainfeed appearance this week, and we’re getting into all of the production drama, real nerdy practical effects shit (cloud boxing!), and the complicated feelings we have towards the behavior of the adults in this movie. Seems like young Stevie Spielberg has some divorce trauma he’s working through! Has anyone ever made that observation before? Decade of Dreams Theme and sound design composed by Alex Mitchell https://www.alexmitchellmusic.com/ Sign up for Check Book https://blankcheckpod.substack.com/welcome, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. http://www.patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter https://x.com/blankcheckpod?lang=en, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/blankcheckpod/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@blankcheckpod?xmt=AQGzctAh4mbWTwYzCV1pzNT6AMV9o99EOfymi8TLR5mTde0 and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/blankcheckpodcast/! Buy some real nerdy merch https://kinshipgoods.com/blankcheck Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/s/gpcOkQr8Sv or Discord https://discord.gg/Q6YGSR3JrA For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com https://www.blankcheckpod.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 0:03David Sims?

  Yep.

• 0:03Griffin Newman?

  We did a live show.

• 0:04David Sims?

  Yeah, remember?

• 0:05Griffin Newman?

  Ranking Scorsese at the Bell House in Brooklyn. We did the definitive power ranking of Martin Scorsese things.

• 0:12David Sims?

  Uh, it was so fun. Uh, it was very silly.

• 0:15Griffin Newman?

  Ben and Marie were with us and they're with us right now.

• 0:18David Sims?

  Yeah, hey.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  Hey, everyone, or should I say, oh?

• 0:20David Sims?

  Oh.

• 0:22Griffin Newman?

  And thanks to our friends at Dynasty Typewriter. It was livestreamed for the first time ever. But also, the replay is still up there, but only until October 30th.

• 0:31Speaker 03

  So just a few more days.

• 0:33David Sims?

  Yes.

• 0:33Speaker 03

  You can get it at dynasty.tv.

• 0:36David Sims?

  Dynasty.tv.

• 0:37Speaker 03

  It's $20. We had a blast and the Spreadmaster really got to work.

• 0:43David Sims?

  Oh, yeah. I was moving things around.

• 0:45Griffin Newman?

  Laptop was on.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  I don't know if I'd have seen you that happy.

• 0:48Griffin Newman?

  You were thrilled. You were like a pick and share.

• 0:50David Sims?

  I was locked in.

• 0:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, very locked in and you were funny.

• 0:53David Sims?

  Thank you. You were funny. You were also funny.

• 0:56Griffin Newman?

  Oh, thank you.

• 0:57David Sims?

  And if you want to see like, you know, Griffin's shine box on camera, it's the only way to see it.

• 1:02Griffin Newman?

  You might see me shine Marie's shoes.

• 1:04David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you're into that sort of content.

• 1:07Griffin Newman?

  If that gets you off.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10Speaker 03

  So once again, that's at dynasty.tv.

• 1:39Griffin Newman?

  Do.

• 1:42Griffin Newman?

  I have to get the, I have to harmonize. I have to get the right note.

• 1:45David Sims?

  Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

• 1:47Griffin Newman?

  Do, do, do, podcast.

• 1:50David Sims?

  All right. So here's my pitch.

• 1:51Griffin Newman?

  Do, do, do, podcast.

• 1:54David Sims?

  Obviously, that's great, but you know.

• 1:56Griffin Newman?

  You sound really enthusiastic.

• 1:58David Sims?

  The poster.

• 1:59Speaker 04

  That's not the voice of someone who's.

• 2:00David Sims?

  No, no, I think that's good. I think that's good. The poster, right? It is an iconic poster in its own right. I'm going to do the tagline. And so here's my, here's my pitch.

• 2:10David Sims?

  Close encounter of the first kind, sighting of a UFO. Close encounter of the second kind, physical evidence. Close encounter of the third kind, podcast.

• 2:21Griffin Newman?

  Well, you gotta put a little mustard on it.

• 2:24Speaker 04

  Would this be the first time that it's the, the tagline from the poster?

• 2:28David Sims?

  We often used to do, that used to be our way in.

• 2:31Griffin Newman?

  JD.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  I'm, I'm new to the.

• 2:34Griffin Newman?

  Well, no, here's what you're new to. You're new to your ten a decade of dreams. Blank check a decade of dreams. And this year, we're pointing back at all our, our history.

• 2:47Speaker 04

  Wait, I'm, the beautiful strings in the background.

• 2:50Griffin Newman?

  Do, do, do, decade.

• 2:53Speaker 04

  That's the theme? I'm on the episode?

• 2:57Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  That the theme comes from?

• 2:58Griffin Newman?

  The whole, the whole decade is a decade of dreams, or the whole year is commemorated.

• 3:03Speaker 04

  Is a decade of, what if you do this for the next 10 years?

• 3:06Griffin Newman?

  But we gotta.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  Is the decade of dreams.

• 3:07Griffin Newman?

  Gotta point back, remember when we used to do the tagline?

• 3:10David Sims?

  We used to, you know, focus on the movie poster tagline first. And then maybe I guess if there was nothing, we would try a quote.

• 3:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:17David Sims?

  It started to become.

• 3:18Speaker 04

  Quotes came out of desperation.

• 3:19Griffin Newman?

  Here's another thing, mini series names used to be riffing on the director's names.

• 3:23David Sims?

  Pod Night Shamacast.

• 3:25Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:25David Sims?

  Oh my god, you're right. And then we eventually were kind of like, eh, it's getting boring.

• 3:29Griffin Newman?

  Couldn't do it with Cameron Crowe.

• 3:30David Sims?

  Yeah, Pod Marin, it doesn't matter.

• 3:32Griffin Newman?

  Right. It does matter, because in another universe, we could be doing Steve Pod Spielcast right now.

• 3:39David Sims?

  Right. Which again, you know, there's a reason we moved on, because that's just kind of okay.

• 3:43Griffin Newman?

  A decade of dreams is a time to look back.

• 3:44David Sims?

  Yeah, that's fine. I mean, if you want me to look back, I just want to look back to the, you know, when we just did Star Wars movies, the prequels, right?

• 3:51Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 3:51David Sims?

  For our first year.

• 3:52Griffin Newman?

  10 years ago.

• 3:52David Sims?

  And so we didn't do quotes at all, usually.

• 3:55Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure.

• 3:56David Sims?

  Right? And there's one episode, I think a really bad one, where we just decided to do like the politics of Star Wars. I think that was for Attack of the Clones.

• 4:03Griffin Newman?

  That's our worst.

• 4:03Speaker 04

  Wait, did I show up to a clip show?

• 4:07Griffin Newman?

  Decade of Dreams.

• 4:08David Sims?

  What's in this, what's in this box in the attic? Oh, well, look at all these memories.

• 4:14Griffin Newman?

  It's even better than a clip show. It's two guys going, hey, remember when this happened? And not cutting back to the clip.

• 4:19Speaker 04

  Do you guys remember the first time that I was ever on Blank Check?

• 4:21David Sims?

  Yeah, it was for Star Wars episode two.

• 4:24Speaker 04

  We cut to the clip.

• 4:25David Sims?

  Yeah, no, Ben can do all that later.

• 4:27Griffin Newman?

  No, it's Decade of Dreams, so we don't do that.

• 4:28David Sims?

  I just want to say for the politics episode.

• 4:31Speaker 04

  Shooting daggers at me right now.

• 4:32David Sims?

  For the politics episode, this ill-begotten politics episode. I believe Griffin just opened the episode going, politics!

• 4:38Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 4:39David Sims?

  Just yelling that.

• 4:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and we, you know what? I'm gonna make a promise. I will do that again at some point within year 10, decade.

• 4:45David Sims?

  Ben, you didn't start the clock.

• 4:46Griffin Newman?

  Oh, David's in a great mood.

• 4:48David Sims?

  I'm in a normal, great mood. The greatest mood.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  I will say this.

• 4:51Griffin Newman?

  The greatest mood.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  To the average person who doesn't know David, they'd be like, David's not in a good mood. Because he was immediately talking about starting on time and wanting to get going.

• 5:01David Sims?

  Yeah, well, we're doing.

• 5:01Speaker 04

  Having known David for a really long time, David's actually in a really good mood today.

• 5:07David Sims?

  Why am I in a good mood? Or why do you think that?

• 5:10Speaker 04

  I just think you have a verve, you have an energy, you have a life to you that is exciting.

• 5:13David Sims?

  It's nice to see you.

• 5:14Griffin Newman?

  You heard that, that vervey sigh?

• 5:17Speaker 04

  The vervey sigh.

• 5:18Griffin Newman?

  You hear the pep in that.

• 5:20Speaker 04

  The types of work he had.

• 5:22David Sims?

  You know, nice to see you. I don't see a lot of like grownups right now. It's nice to see grownups.

• 5:26Griffin Newman?

  Well, this is where grownups live, in the Blank Check Studios. Entering year 10 of Decade of Dreams. This is where grownups live!

• 5:35David Sims?

  This is, that's the worst, like, you know, theme park, like my, this is where grownups, like, who would be drawn to that?

• 5:44Griffin Newman?

  Well, good thing.

• 5:45David Sims?

  I guess like a sex club, but even then it would be kind of like, yeah, I hope so.

• 5:48Griffin Newman?

  This isn't a theme park. This is a place of business. It's like a place of serious.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  The theme of this park is grownups.

• 5:53David Sims?

  I used to work at a chess shop, a zillion years ago.

• 5:56Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's where grownups.

• 5:57David Sims?

  My first job in New York, basically.

• 5:59Speaker 04

  Which one?

• 5:59David Sims?

  When I moved here. It was called Chess Shop. It doesn't exist anymore.

• 6:01Speaker 04

  Is it the two competing ones that were across the street from each other?

• 6:03David Sims?

  The Chess Forum was the, was the spinoff that, yeah, right, that employees at the chess shop had started. And I believe Chess Forum still exists.

• 6:10Griffin Newman?

  That was the Patsies?

• 6:12David Sims?

  Exactly. Yeah, chess form still exists. God bless him. Whereas Chess Shop finally has turned into a sort of different game store. I don't really know what happened there.

• 6:19Griffin Newman?

  There's that weird chain now that's called like Hex and Cross or some shit.

• 6:22David Sims?

  Yeah, I've seen those, yeah.

• 6:23Griffin Newman?

  That's like board game coffee shops.

• 6:25David Sims?

  Hex and Co. Yes. Anyway, when I worked at the Chess Shop, which was this sort of shambling institution from back in the day in the Village on Thompson Street, we had lots of chess sets for sale, many of them from India, because India is the home of chess sets. And the boxes would say, like, "Made with no child labor."

• 6:42Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure.

• 6:42David Sims?

  And you would be like, "That's great, but we have to, we have to announce that." Like, what does that mean for all the ones that don't say that, you know? So it's kind of like the sex club saying-

• 6:52Griffin Newman?

  The fairly difference, "Come with your kids, leave with your kids."

• 6:55David Sims?

  As I, I think I've told you that I waited on Gandalfini once because his son used to be really into chess, I think, at some point. Mike, I think Michael, right? I think his son, Michael Gandalf, now a good actor.

• 7:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:06David Sims?

  And James Gandalfini was an incredibly nice customer, like polite customer, but the act, that man standing and waiting-

• 7:15Griffin Newman?

  In the shop, yeah.

• 7:15David Sims?

  Just breathing and like maybe looking at his watch is one of the more stressful, like, work experiences where I'm like, "Yes, yes, your order is here." And I'm like rushing and he's just like-

• 7:26Griffin Newman?

  To be rude.

• 7:27David Sims?

  Just freaking me out.

• 7:28Griffin Newman?

  But I remember that being a pretty small, delicate, cramped store.

• 7:32David Sims?

  Not a big store, not a huge store.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  What year were you working there?

• 7:35David Sims?

  2008, 2008, the year I moved here.

• 7:38Griffin Newman?

  What are you doing, JD?

• 7:39David Sims?

  Like, could I have waited on you?

• 7:41Griffin Newman?

  JD's doing math, you did.

• 7:42David Sims?

  I mean, it's very possible.

• 7:43Griffin Newman?

  It's very possible.

• 7:44David Sims?

  I didn't work 24 hours a day.

• 7:45Griffin Newman?

  Do you think David sold you a rook?

• 7:46Speaker 04

  I think David sold me my first chess set that I ever bought.

• 7:50David Sims?

  Okay, what did you, do you remember what you bought? Did you buy like a mat in pieces?

• 7:52Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 7:53David Sims?

  I mean, because that was the thing, people would come in and say, "Hey, I just want, like, what, can I get a chess set for like the least amount of money, essentially?"

• 8:00Speaker 04

  This is probably a screen memory that I am inventing.

• 8:03David Sims?

  It's possible.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  But the person-

• 8:04David Sims?

  I mean, you probably hung out in the Village a lot back then, right?

• 8:07Speaker 04

  The person that I'm remembering who helped me on that day, now a long time ago, had David characteristics to the point that I'm like, "Was it David?"

• 8:15David Sims?

  I worked there. I mean, like, there's-

• 8:17Speaker 04

  That's so funny.

• 8:18Griffin Newman?

  You went, "Can I get a mat in pieces?" And he went, "Huh."

• 8:21David Sims?

  No, no, the whole thing was like, you knew when people came in, right?

• 8:24Speaker 04

  "Oh my God, wait, I'm remembering it now." The person went, "Huh." Boy, if someday I had a blank chat,

• 8:32Speaker 04

  I'd get out of here.

• 8:32David Sims?

  I'm pretty sure I was like logged into AIM on the, you know, computer and like

• 8:36Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say.

• 8:37David Sims?

  bored out of my mind.

• 8:38Griffin Newman?

  Furiously messaging. Hey, you know what? What a fun thing to look back on as we start our decade of dreams.

• 8:45David Sims?

  You're acting, Griffin, like this is the first episode of like 2025, which it's not.

• 8:51Griffin Newman?

  No, this is like the fifth episode of 2025.

• 8:53David Sims?

  Fourth, I think.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  Is this the first time that decade of dreams has been established?

• 8:56David Sims?

  He's starting this.

• 8:57Griffin Newman?

  No, I've seen it in a couple other episodes, but because of us recording in advance and slightly out of order, I didn't, I, I didn't have the foresight to launch it on the

• 9:05David Sims?

  On the dual episode, you probably.

• 9:06Griffin Newman?

  Episode, so I'm catching up now.

• 9:08David Sims?

  Well, this is a more nostalgic film anyway. This is a film about.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  You waited till you had a friend that would yes and you also?

• 9:13Griffin Newman?

  Maybe that's part of it.

• 9:14David Sims?

  People would come in and then we'll talk about Close Encounters. People would come in.

• 9:17Griffin Newman?

  We'll talk about a lot of things.

• 9:18David Sims?

  Well, we got our lot of things episode next. Is the whole, this is the whole, it's a backwards thing. It's like when we were listening, when there was that crunch of Doughboys episodes where they were getting ready for Mitch to work.

• 9:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, let's just call out that this episode is being recorded the week before Mitch has his colonoscopy.

• 9:35David Sims?

  But it's also.

• 9:36Griffin Newman?

  We have to bank up.

• 9:37David Sims?

  We're doing our silly episode next, but it'll have come out before this one.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  Oh, copy.

• 9:43David Sims?

  You know what I mean?

• 9:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 9:44David Sims?

  So like the sillies, like they'll are front loaded for the listener.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  They've gotten their sillies out, but we haven't.

• 9:51David Sims?

  But, um, yeah, we're like the Rashomon of Doughboys episodes where you're like, this is day after colonoscopy, day before. Anyway, people would come in and there'd be three kinds of people. One is a person who's just like, hi, I'm interested in chess. I have $30, you know, like what can I get for, and it's like, yeah, you just want a mat and some plastic pieces, right? Chess. People come in being like, hey, I would like a nice chess set. And you're like, great. You want a wooden chess set. It's going to cost you like $120 or whatever, right? Like you want like a nice wood, rosewood chess set.

• 10:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:19David Sims?

  And then some people come in.

• 10:20Griffin Newman?

  The Simpson set.

• 10:21David Sims?

  Well, that we did sell.

• 10:23Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say it was very popular.

• 10:24David Sims?

  Very nice set. But no, some people come in kind of with like, if you kind of pitch me enough, I'll drop like a lot of money on a slightly sort of absurdly expensive chess.

• 10:35Griffin Newman?

  But they're kind of testing you.

• 10:36David Sims?

  Right. They're like, so, you know, come on, make, make me believe that I need to spend like 400 bucks on this like really fancy wrought iron or there was the Bauhaus chess set.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  What did, I don't know what just happened.

• 10:50Griffin Newman?

  Ben just handed a phone to JD with something on.

• 10:52David Sims?

  I brought up the part in the movie that he wanted to read the quote from.

• 10:54Griffin Newman?

  Oh, great. Okay, now we can finally start the podcast.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  How do we do this, though, where?

• 10:59Griffin Newman?

  Okay, I'm, you press play, Sub tells her on, I'm gonna do it, and you do the, the feedback. Okay, ready?

• 11:06Speaker 04

  Okay, okay, this is suddenly a lot of pressure, but we're gonna try it.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know where we are in it, but we're gonna try this. Okay.

• 11:15Speaker 04

  Okay, start with the tone.

• 11:28David Sims?

  Why is it southern accent?

• 11:29Griffin Newman?

  I'm trying something.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  Up a full note.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  Down a major third.

• 11:41Speaker 04

  Now drop an octave.

• 11:47David Sims?

  Podcast.

• 11:50Speaker 04

  Cool, Blue, go.

• 11:56David Sims?

  Foghorn Leghorn. One, one of the guys is Foghorn Leghorn, like, with, like, glass, big, thick glasses.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  Give me a tone.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  Read to the second, up a full tone. Me to the third, down a major third. Do to the first, drop an octave. Do up perfect fifth, so to the fifth.

• 12:18Griffin Newman?

  Wasn't that worth it, David? David is now checking two devices.

• 12:23Griffin Newman?

  We're doing the podcast!

• 12:24David Sims?

  Yeah, we're doing the podcast.

• 12:25Griffin Newman?

  Hey, this is Blank-

• 12:25Speaker 04

  That also wasn't the section that I was imagining.

• 12:28David Sims?

  Whatever.

• 12:29Speaker 04

  Thank you for pulling that up, though.

• 12:30Griffin Newman?

  Thank you, man. Hey, Ben, 10 years from now, we're gonna be looking back on this moment. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

• 12:38David Sims?

  I'm David.

• 12:38Griffin Newman?

  It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers, and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want, and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby, this is a mini-series on the early works of Steven Spielberg, and you know it's serious because David has unzipped his hoodie.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  He's wearing a sleeveless shirt.

• 13:01Griffin Newman?

  He's wearing a dickie?

• 13:02David Sims?

  I'm wearing a Quince, Quince shirt.

• 13:03Griffin Newman?

  Oh, hey.

• 13:04David Sims?

  Uh, this is Steven Spielberg.

• 13:06Griffin Newman?

  That's a main series on the early works of Steven Spielberg.

• 13:09David Sims?

  Yes, the first half of his career.

• 13:10Griffin Newman?

  It's called Podrastic Cast.

• 13:12David Sims?

  Sure.

• 13:13Griffin Newman?

  Podrastic Cast.

• 13:15David Sims?

  I said, sure.

• 13:16Griffin Newman?

  JD's making a face that's like, mm, yummy, sounds good.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  That's a, of all the options, that's what you went with?

• 13:22Griffin Newman?

  Make a better pitch, because we went through it all. We went through it all, and you think, oh, there are a lot of options, but then you start working on them.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  What are you ending with?

• 13:31Griffin Newman?

  What are we ending with? Schindler's List.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  You've heard of that one? Oh, interesting.

• 13:34Griffin Newman?

  I would say not to riff on that title, maybe.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  No, I'm not.

• 13:38David Sims?

  Steer your riff truck away.

• 13:40Griffin Newman?

  But like Pod Encounters of the Third Cast.

• 13:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're right. Actually, you're right.

• 13:45Griffin Newman?

  Pod Encounters of the Cast Kind.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  It's not until later that he gets.

• 13:49David Sims?

  Which was fine, you know, but like, kind of like, eh.

• 13:52Griffin Newman?

  But you're like, there are the Indiana Jones titles, there's Close Encounters, and there's Jurassic Park. Otherwise, he has a lot of short, little punchy titles.

• 13:59David Sims?

  What are you gonna do with Hook, you know, what are you gonna do with the, the, the Poderland Cast Brass?

• 14:05Griffin Newman?

  We're not gonna do the Color Podcast.

• 14:07Speaker 04

  PC, the Podra Terrestrial?

• 14:10Griffin Newman?

  I pitched it. You better believe I pitched it.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're right. That's rough.

• 14:15Griffin Newman?

  PC, the Podcast Castarastial.

• 14:18David Sims?

  Indiana Jones and the Temple of Podcasts.

• 14:20Griffin Newman?

  Well, yeah, of course.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's probably it.

• 14:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 14:24David Sims?

  I think, I think Podrastic Cast is fun.

• 14:26Griffin Newman?

  Podrastic Cast is fun.

• 14:27David Sims?

  And we can maybe have, you know, art like the Al Yankovic album.

• 14:31Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 14:31Speaker 04

  You're right.

• 14:32Griffin Newman?

  It's time for our, yeah, Al Yankovic album.

• 14:34David Sims?

  Go on, what do you mean? Well, remember, he, he has the one album, it's called, uh, I can't remember what it's called even, but it's where it's-

• 14:41Griffin Newman?

  His song is just called Jurassic Park.

• 14:43David Sims?

  But the album cover is just like the Jurassic Park logo with, you know, Al instead of a dinosaur. I mean, you're laughing already.

• 14:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, you can hear all the laughs.

• 14:54David Sims?

  Ben turned off his mic because he was laughing so much.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  Ben's laughing too hard right now.

• 14:57David Sims?

  Uh, it's called, I mean, I, I, I won't, I won't spin.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  I'm scared, actually.

• 15:01David Sims?

  It's called Alapalooza.

• 15:02Griffin Newman?

  Alapalooza.

• 15:03David Sims?

  You know, it looks like, you know.

• 15:05Griffin Newman?

  I think we're all gonna have a great time.

• 15:06David Sims?

  It's fun. It's fun.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  It's fun.

• 15:09David Sims?

  I won't hear anything against Weird Al. I think Weird Al is like, one of the few pure-

• 15:14Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 15:15David Sims?

  Kind of, I know you agree.

• 15:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 15:16David Sims?

  I'm just saying it out loud, like- You know how like back in the day, people would be like, man, if Obama was whatever turned out to be like cheating on his wife, that would be such a bummer. Now everyone's like, oh, Obama's probably cheating. Everyone cheats on their wife or whatever. Now morals have shifted, I guess.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  I'm waiting to see where this is going.

• 15:32David Sims?

  If Ali Yankovic got canceled, that would, that would bump me out so much more than like 99.9% of celebrities, right? Like, that's one where I'm like, no, I, I, I have always heard what a great guy he is, and I refuse to believe otherwise. Most celebrities these days, I'm like, yeah, whatever. Hollywood is a pit of scum and they're all up to no good.

• 15:51Griffin Newman?

  He's one of the only good ones we got.

• 15:52David Sims?

  You know, if he was on Jay-Z's island, or Diddy's island, or whoever had an island. I don't like it.

• 15:59Griffin Newman?

  JD's doing swerve gestures. Hey, our guest today returned to the show. A legend across the decade of dreams that we've lived through.

• 16:09Griffin Newman?

  From after midnight.

• 16:11Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 16:11Griffin Newman?

  New credit since the last time.

• 16:13Speaker 04

  On CBS.

• 16:14Griffin Newman?

  On CBS.

• 16:15Speaker 04

  1230.

• 16:17Griffin Newman?

  Network television. JD Amato.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  I'm so glad to be here. I'm JD Amato, and I love movies.

• 16:23Griffin Newman?

  Blanket.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  Thank it.

• 16:24Griffin Newman?

  JD, I'm so happy to have you here.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  I'm so happy to be here. It's been.

• 16:31David Sims?

  Worse the more we say.

• 16:33Griffin Newman?

  We're gonna carve it into the door.

• 16:36Speaker 04

  It's been a minute.

• 16:37Griffin Newman?

  It's been a minute.

• 16:37David Sims?

  When, when was it last?

• 16:39Griffin Newman?

  It's, this has basically become a yearly event that tends to happen at the end of the year where we double up.

• 16:46David Sims?

  Yeah, cause I mean, it was last time this Boy and the Heron.

• 16:49Griffin Newman?

  And a Patreon episode where you have this sort of December slot, sort of for your choosing.

• 16:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I feel like the past three years, we've, we've tried to schedule something.

• 16:59Griffin Newman?

  We do more frequently.

• 17:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. And it hasn't happened. And so now it's turned into we just.

• 17:03Griffin Newman?

  Last year was, uh, we, we doubled a Patreon record with Boy and the Heron.

• 17:09Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 17:09Griffin Newman?

  Year before that, we doubled one with Coraline.

• 17:11Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 17:12Griffin Newman?

  And the year before, I'm trying to think what the last main feed appearance was before.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  The Walk?

• 17:18Griffin Newman?

  There was a bit of a gap.

• 17:19David Sims?

  Yeah, I mean, you did Talking the Moonwalk with us, and we ranked the Walks the year before that, you know, but you hadn't done a main feed since The Walk, but welcome, this is your one.

• 17:30David Sims?

  This is your 10th.

• 17:32Griffin Newman?

  Oh my god.

• 17:32David Sims?

  Feed episode, main feed.

• 17:34Griffin Newman?

  Look at this.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  A decade of dreams.

• 17:36Griffin Newman?

  It's all lighting up.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  It's a decade of dreams.

• 17:38David Sims?

  That's true, over.

• 17:39Griffin Newman?

  He's laughing, we love.

• 17:41David Sims?

  Over the decade, you're about to once see your guest.

• 17:43Speaker 04

  I'm hearing the strings come back.

• 17:45Griffin Newman?

  It's a hit.

• 17:47Speaker 04

  10th time for the decade of dreams.

• 17:49Griffin Newman?

  10th time for the decade of dreams, and a big, a big ass movie.

• 17:52Speaker 04

  Uh, and this, uh, um, a movie that I'm so delighted to talk about.

• 17:56David Sims?

  A big ass movie, I'm not denying this, right? Big movie at the time, big movie in the man's filmography.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:05David Sims?

  Is it the least remembered or discussed of his, like, totemic, top of the pile movies these days?

• 18:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, but I think that's weirdly only a last 10 years.

• 18:14David Sims?

  But 10 years is a long time. For example, all of Blank Check contained within it. The strings are back. Uh, I'm just like, I was just considering that because I watched this movie when I was young and I want to hear, obviously, because my dad showed it to me as this kind of like, I am now showing you a really big movie for me, right?

• 18:32Griffin Newman?

  Exact same experience with my mother as a child.

• 18:34David Sims?

  Yeah, you, you know, here we go. And, uh, we can talk about what I thought of it when I was a kid, but you know, whereas now I feel like it's like, whatever, you know, below your Jurassic Park, your Indiana Jones, your ET, and all that stuff.

• 18:47Griffin Newman?

  A parent who is vaguely interested in movies and trying to show their kids important things, puts like Indiana Jones, Jurassic, ET, they're even saying.

• 18:59David Sims?

  Lincoln, Bridges of Spies.

• 19:02Griffin Newman?

  No, but I think they're even saying like, hey, someday you'll be old enough to watch Jaws. Like they're calling the shot of Jaws, they're pointing off to Jaws in the distance.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Someday you'll be able to watch the Fableman's.

• 19:11Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's, you have to really grow up. You show a kid Fableman's too early, it might score him for life, turn him into a filmmaker.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:18David Sims?

  It's not like this is a forgotten film.

• 19:20Griffin Newman?

  No, no.

• 19:21David Sims?

  I just feel like it's a slightly less discussed film than its heyday, I guess, I don't know.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  And I, my experience on this watch of it is that weirdly, in school, I remember there being a lot of, learning a lot of information about this movie. And so when you.

• 19:40David Sims?

  Like in film school, you're saying, not in like elementary.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  No, no, no, in film school. And I was like, oh yeah, I've, I remember a lot about the, learning about the making of this film. And then I was like, wait. Are any of those things correct? And I sort of had sort of had this skepticism over my

• 19:55David Sims?

  True of a lot of Spielberg movies, just right. The lore gets

• 19:57Speaker 04

  Only

• 19:58David Sims?

  And I was like, it was Print the legend a little bit.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  And there was one professor that was the one that would talk a lot about it. And so I was sort of like, do I trust this guy? So then I was like, let me actually dive into. I read the making of book and I read the Balaban diaries.

• 20:12Griffin Newman?

  I'm eager to talk about.

• 20:14Speaker 04

  Um.

• 20:15David Sims?

  Do they always begin with like, wake up, comb beard?

• 20:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's most of it.

• 20:20Griffin Newman?

  The beard looks soft.

• 20:21David Sims?

  I'm, that's what I'm saying. I wanted to know, how is he maintaining that fucker?

• 20:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  But in reading about all of the development of this and what happened, it, I was struck by how actually important this film was in Spielberg's career. And what I, I guess, and to your point, I think it has fallen in the folds of an otherwise sterling career.

• 20:47David Sims?

  Maybe not all the way in the folds.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  But I think people don't, this is such an important movie in his.

• 20:52David Sims?

  It is.

• 20:53Speaker 04

  His launch.

• 20:54Griffin Newman?

  Well, also, look.

• 20:55David Sims?

  And his lunch.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  The smile that David gave after that.

• 21:00David Sims?

  Just really, really searching for some kind of sandwich joke I could make, but I couldn't, I couldn't.

• 21:05Griffin Newman?

  You look at like the first decade of Spielberg's directing career, right? Duel, Sugarland, okay, that's like developmental years, right?

• 21:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:14Griffin Newman?

  Then

• 21:15David Sims?

  Jaws.

• 21:15Griffin Newman?

  Just straight through Jaws, Close Encounters. Uh, 1941 is at least a big flashy bomb, right? And then E.T. Raiders.

• 21:25David Sims?

  No, Raiders, E.T.

• 21:26Griffin Newman?

  I'm sorry, yes. But like, those four movies, I think were held on vaguely equal, uh, uh, sort of esteem.

• 21:36David Sims?

  Jaws, Close Encounters, Raiders, E.T. is what you're saying.

• 21:39Griffin Newman?

  Right, this guy has made four blockbuster masterpieces. And it does feel like of those four. This one's fallen out a little bit where it feels like it's more the egghead pick.

• 21:49David Sims?

  It's more the egghead pick. It's got, it doesn't have action in it. It's, you know, it's in the best way cheesier or, you know, like not cheesy maybe, but like it's very sentimental. And so, you know.

• 22:00Griffin Newman?

  It's in a certain way, it's like, um, less emotional than a lot of, I don't know. It's funny how much this feels like a Key Spielberg text and you watch it now. And there are like parts of this movie that almost play like, like verite. You know, that feel very stripped down and a lot of the emotion is kind of like subtextual.

• 22:21Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 22:22Griffin Newman?

  It doesn't go for like, do you disagree on it?

• 22:25Speaker 04

  I kind of disagree.

• 22:27David Sims?

  I can hear both sides.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. But I also think based on what happened with Jaws and what a disaster the production was, but how successful the film.

• 22:34David Sims?

  Eaten.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, and to have cameras there to see it all.

• 22:38Griffin Newman?

  That's the worst part of it.

• 22:39David Sims?

  And not intervene.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  But if this didn't go well.

• 22:42David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 04

  That would have been who he was, is this sort of like.

• 22:46David Sims?

  I think then it would, if say, right, say this movie is some sort of giant bomb. It would be like, okay, buddy, back to, you know, make, make me a thriller, make me a creature feature. Make me, you know, not like, okay, anything you want. What do you want to do?

• 22:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I think the success of this, cause also I didn't realize what a huge, learning about where the industry was at the time was very interesting and also very comforting because we're in a dire industry place right now in film and television into.

• 23:10David Sims?

  Great. No problems at all.

• 23:11Griffin Newman?

  It's good for podcasting.

• 23:12David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 23:13Speaker 04

  But to learn.

• 23:14David Sims?

  Craven's out there hunting. Although by the time this came out, that movie is whatever.

• 23:21Griffin Newman?

  I have tickets for Craven tonight. Craven has been out for, I think, four days. I bought tickets for Craven in 4DX. It is playing in 4DX one time a day, 10:20 PM.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:30David Sims?

  In the first. Well, he hunts at night.

• 23:32Griffin Newman?

  This is true.

• 23:33Speaker 04

  I didn't know this was a movie.

• 23:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 23:36David Sims?

  Like you're saying, we're telling you it's a movie, but this is the first.

• 23:39Griffin Newman?

  You're familiar with the work.

• 23:40David Sims?

  There's like posters.

• 23:41Speaker 04

  I have not seen a single one.

• 23:42Griffin Newman?

  It's been pushed back so many times. This movie's basically been advertised for two years.

• 23:47Speaker 04

  I did not know about that.

• 23:48Griffin Newman?

  JD, uh, you're familiar with Craven the Hunter, his work?

• 23:50Speaker 04

  Uh, yes.

• 23:51Griffin Newman?

  Uh, you want to take a stab at who directed the Craven the Hunter movie?

• 23:54Speaker 04

  I have no idea. I, I don't even know who would be playing Craven the Hunter.

• 23:58Griffin Newman?

  Knowing nothing about it, just who would you think would direct a Craven the Hunter movie? A solo Craven the Hunter movie where they're legally not allowed to say Spider-Man?

• 24:07Speaker 04

  Uh, I can't even imagine.

• 24:09Griffin Newman?

  Of course, J C Chandor, director of Margin Call, A Most Violent Year and All Is Lost.

• 24:16David Sims?

  Triple Frontier.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  No way.

• 24:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 04

  Who's playing Craven the Hunter?

• 24:19David Sims?

  Aaron Taylor Johnson.

• 24:20Griffin Newman?

  Of course, your favorite star.

• 24:22David Sims?

  The most hunt, huntey, he's, he's, he's always on the hunt.

• 24:26Griffin Newman?

  Audiences are on the hunt for his next great picture.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  Fascinating.

• 24:30David Sims?

  Audiences are on the hunt for a different ticket.

• 24:32Griffin Newman?

  Well, yeah, that's what actually happened. Seeing Wicked a fair time.

• 24:35David Sims?

  Right, like, they're like, they see the Craven the Hunter ticket and they're like, they turn right. Um, anyway, industry's going great now and in 1977, also going great, is what you're saying?

• 24:45Griffin Newman?

  Jay, not, to your point, he had a blank check in a way that I would argue to a certain degree, 70s new Hollywood is a little bit more directors carving out control of their own career, rather than just, you're slotted into the studio system, you're assigned movies, right? He's like, in the early days of like, Jaws is undeniable, what do you want to do?

• 25:09Speaker 04

  Well.

• 25:09Griffin Newman?

  And we'll get into the development of it.

• 25:10David Sims?

  I'll, I'll crack the dossier.

• 25:12Griffin Newman?

  But it does feel like this movie is him being like, what if I'm not trying to make Jaws again? What if I'm trying to do something else? And it working is the thing that kind of is like, okay, he expanded, he showed us.

• 25:24David Sims?

  He can do what he wants.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  So I read, I read the, the Ray Morton, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the making of Steven Spielberg's classic film book. And what I, based on that, what I gleaned is it wasn't a blank check. It was.

• 25:39David Sims?

  No, no, not quite.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  He sold paramount on this being a $2.8 million movie and then just kept being like, we need more. And eventually it was like, kind of this like.

• 25:48David Sims?

  20 million.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  Sunk cost thing where they were like, all right, we think this is going to be good. So we'll keep writing the check, but like.

• 25:55David Sims?

  If it doesn't work out.

• 25:56Speaker 04

  Right, we're fucked. Like, we have put so much into this in a way that I'm like, I think it was a weird bet that they kept raising, raising the stakes on.

• 26:05Griffin Newman?

  I, yes, I agree with you. I do think they wouldn't have. They wouldn't have stood by for that if he hadn't made Jaws.

• 26:12David Sims?

  Like, it's like-

• 26:13Griffin Newman?

  That's the way in which it's a blank check.

• 26:15David Sims?

  Now, obviously, he eventually becomes, it's funny that his early career is defined by these movies that went over budget and schedule and stuff because he became this very like, no, I don't do that. I'm on time. I, I, I go under budget.

• 26:27Griffin Newman?

  But that's Raiders is what-

• 26:28David Sims?

  Right.

• 26:29Griffin Newman?

  He was also very young.

• 26:30David Sims?

  He was quite young. Only seven. Seven years old. No, he was very, but like, early in his career, it's like, Jesus, this Spielberg guy, this better fucking work. Like, and then 1941 is the one where it doesn't, and Spielberg himself is like, okay, I need to storyboard everything like really closely. I need to get my budget under control. I cannot become the guy who always goes over budget over time.

• 26:53Griffin Newman?

  Cause he did it three times, but two of those times, it was so wildly successful that people were fine with it. I mean, fine with it. Let's, they tolerated it because the bet would pay off. The first time that bet doesn't pay off, people are like, ready to shut you down.

• 27:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was fascinating.

• 27:15Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 27:15David Sims?

  Yes.

• 27:19David Sims?

  Is that the Cine's cow?

• 27:20Griffin Newman?

  The Cine's cow is back.

• 27:21David Sims?

  Haven't heard from her in a while.

• 27:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, she's reactivated because she's horny for chicken fingers.

• 27:28David Sims?

  Okay.

• 27:28Griffin Newman?

  And she's excited for the streaming debut of Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma.

• 27:33David Sims?

  Wow.

• 27:33Griffin Newman?

  The cow likes chicken.

• 27:36David Sims?

  Remember cow and chicken? Let's look it up. While, while you, while you tell the, the great listeners about the great stuff on movie.

• 27:42Griffin Newman?

  Well, MUBI is a global film company bringing great cinema to the world and to you, curating and elevating visionary filmmaking, all handpicked, always. That's what MUBI does. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, one of my favorite movies of the year.

• 27:55David Sims?

  Absolutely.

• 27:56Griffin Newman?

  You can feel the rush now at home. There's a hole at the bottom of the lake where the movies come from.

• 28:02David Sims?

  That is a line in the movie.

• 28:04Griffin Newman?

  In the new movie from Jane Schomburg, Past and Future Guest.

• 28:06David Sims?

  Past and Future Guest, a great filmmaker, a great podcast guest, great friend.

• 28:11Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 28:11David Sims?

  Um, this movie rocks. It's got, of course, it stars Hannah Einbinder and Gillian Anderson.

• 28:17Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 28:18David Sims?

  Legends, and I tip my cap, but Zach Cherry.

• 28:20Griffin Newman?

  Performances, friend of the show.

• 28:21David Sims?

  Friend of the show, Zach Cherry.

• 28:23Griffin Newman?

  Zach Cherry.

• 28:23David Sims?

  Also in it.

• 28:24Griffin Newman?

  This is true.

• 28:26David Sims?

  Such a cool movie. One of the queer Paul McCann. If you haven't heard about this movie, I don't know what's going on with you, but like, it obviously has, it was out in theaters this summer and now it's on movie.

• 28:36Griffin Newman?

  Hannah Einbinder plays the filmmaker attempting to reboot the Camp Miasma franchise, trying to track down the original final girl from the first movie to, to make some sort of legacy sequel, who's played by Gillian Anderson, who lives at the summer camp.

• 28:50David Sims?

  Yes. And you know, and then they hang out and it's regular.

• 28:54Griffin Newman?

  What happens? It's, it's one of those Hollywood's out of ideas. No, it's very much a movie about Hollywood being out of ideas while being an example of there still being new stories to tell.

• 29:06David Sims?

  It's now streaming exclusively on movie and you can try movie free for 30 days at movie.com slash blank check. That's M U B I dot com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

• 29:19Griffin Newman?

  They got so many great movies on there to watch, but worth it for 30 days for Miasma.

• 29:29Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 29:29David Sims?

  Yes.

• 29:30Griffin Newman?

  He lurks in shadow. He slips into dreams. He casts no reflection. Audible presents Bram Stoker's Dracula, a new full cast audio thriller starring Ella Purnell as Mina Harker, Jonathan Bailey as Dracula, and an A-list cast, including Maggie Gyllenhaal as Van Helsing, Amy Lou Wood as Lucy, David Johnson as Dr. Seward, and many more. That is an all-star cast.

• 29:51David Sims?

  Yeah, this new full cast thriller locks Mina Harker in a battle of minds with the Count. When Mina's fiance Jonathan Harker, Louis Partridge, vanishes in Transylvania, Mina pieces together letters, diary entries, and chilling testimony to hunt the predator stalking those she loves, only to discover Dracula's already hunting her.

• 30:10Griffin Newman?

  Joined by the enigmatic Van Helsing, Mina and a small fearless band race against time to stop this ancient terror. Using her intellect, her resolve, and a gift for drawing the unseen lines between clues, Mina may just hold the key to bring down the Count if he hasn't already found his way inside her mind.

• 30:26David Sims?

  Featuring a haunting original score by Elon Eschery and a spatial dolby Atmos sound design, Audible's Dracula invites you to welcome literature's most shadowy figure into your home. Feel the terror of being hunted and the thrill of the hunt. Don't miss this year's best new audio thriller, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Audible's new full cast original adaptation, written by Robin Ahern, now on Audible. Listen to the darkness. Go to audible.com/listen to Dracula.

• 31:01Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 31:02David Sims?

  Yes?

• 31:02Griffin Newman?

  Oh.

• 31:03David Sims?

  Uh oh.

• 31:04Griffin Newman?

  It's November.

• 31:05David Sims?

  Ah.

• 31:06Griffin Newman?

  And you know what that means, the old stereotype about November?

• 31:09David Sims?

  Turkeys?

• 31:10Griffin Newman?

  One long sprint to the finish line.

• 31:12David Sims?

  Oh, of course.

• 31:13Griffin Newman?

  Packed schedule, questionable food choices, and somehow a social calendar that got way fuller than you planned. And I ain't talking about Sam Fuller. We're not covering him yet in the podcast.

• 31:21David Sims?

  No, although maybe we should.

• 31:23Griffin Newman?

  We might get there eventually.

• 31:24David Sims?

  I can't remember. Big red one. We call it the Big Red Podcast.

• 31:27Griffin Newman?

  Listen, when things get complicated, not when life is easy, when you got time for a whole routine, right now, when everything is full and something has to give one scoop cold water every morning before anything else, as I like to say, scoop there it is.

• 31:41David Sims?

  You do like to say that every morning you text me, scoop there it is. And that means I now know that you had your AG1.

• 31:47Griffin Newman?

  And I'm awake.

• 31:48David Sims?

  Uh, but yeah, you're, I know you're, you're a daily AG1 user and it's basically the, uh, the glue that holds your internal organs together at this point.

• 31:57Griffin Newman?

  It's not just marketing. AG1 Next Gen is backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials, not weekend a study.

• 32:04David Sims?

  Thank you for that.

• 32:05Griffin Newman?

  Four independent studies with key nutrient levels improved within three months of consistent use. This is the thing I like about AG1. They're not resting on their laurels. They constantly work to better themselves.

• 32:16David Sims?

  Um, yes, AG1. They've got now AG1 Pro.

• 32:21Griffin Newman?

  For the professionals.

• 32:21David Sims?

  Same daily drink now with a performance and recovery layer built in. So you've got five grams of Cre vitalis, a premium German made creatine monohydrate, and one of the most studied compounds in sports science, plus CAHMB for muscle protection and zinc carnosine for gut support.

• 32:40Griffin Newman?

  Thank God.

• 32:40David Sims?

  Next gen is the foundation pro adds what your body needs to recover.

• 32:44Griffin Newman?

  You might be having some big meals this November. AG1 is what you need to keep your gut in check. Keep things, as I like to put it, regular.

• 32:52David Sims?

  Yes. So for a limited time, visit drink AG1.com slash check and get a free immune support bundle, including omega three, fish oil and vitamin D three plus K2 with your first subscription of AG1 next gen or AG1 Pro. That's drink AG1.com slash check. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Belank check send you.

• 33:23David Sims?

  When did you first see, before I crack the dossier? When did you first see Close Encounters? If you have a memory of that, or what's your experience with the movie?

• 33:29Speaker 04

  So strangely, I can't even pinpoint how or why. This is one of my earliest movie memories.

• 33:36David Sims?

  I can believe it again, again, generationally for us, the parents, this was a big movie. Maybe I don't know.

• 33:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I remember watching it with my parents when I was, I think, too young to see it and it, it felt like a very serious horror movie in a way.

• 33:53David Sims?

  Yeah, that was my memory of it too.

• 33:55Speaker 04

  Like I, of course I have memories of seeing Disney movies and things like before. This is the first sort of like adult movie that I can like remember seeing. And I, I had a lot of fears around it. It felt scary to me.

• 34:08David Sims?

  Fear, like it sort of scarred you slightly or whatever.

• 34:11Speaker 04

  I think it might have, well, not scarred me, but I think it, it, it.

• 34:16David Sims?

  It had an impact on me.

• 34:17Griffin Newman?

  It's also like a sad grown up movie.

• 34:19David Sims?

  This is the thing, because this is, my dad showed me this movie probably way too young for the exact same reason of like, well, I really, I want you to see this one. And then I think I remember him kind of being like, yeah, I guess we gotta ride out a lot of stuff you're not gonna care about or understand before we get to the end, which I think you'll like, you know, like, of like, all the grown up feelings.

• 34:39Griffin Newman?

  The wild thing for me is, I think, I was like, five or six, maybe seven at the oldest. I remember it playing on the Disney Channel, my mom being like, oh my god, Close Encounters. We need to watch this, right? And sitting there and watching it with her, I remember being totally locked in the whole time. I bring this up only because I feel like within that same year, if not the year before, my mother rented Star Wars and was like, you should watch Star Wars, and I tapped out in the first five minutes. I was like, yawn. She might have even done the same thing with Indiana Jones.

• 35:10David Sims?

  When you're a kid, you never know when, like, something will grab you or not.

• 35:13Griffin Newman?

  It was weird, but she was like, you're not paying attention that this is Star Wars? And it was just like, playing in the background, I didn't really watch it until the re-release. I'd certainly seen E.T., and I think was all in on E.T., but this was, I believe, my mom framing it to me as like, oh my god, that's on TV tonight? This is the other alien movie by the E.T. guy, you need to see this, this is important. And, and the child abduction sequence is the thing that always, like, lived in my brain very large, but I remember sitting through the whole movie, being engaged, like, I don't, I don't present this as some sign of maturity. I almost was more looking back on it and being like, right, in an era where only Disney makes children's films in the 1970s, where there are not a lot of movies made explicitly

• 35:58Griffin Newman?

  for children or families, period, this was like seen by small children.

• 36:02David Sims?

  Absolutely, this is a, right, a PG movie or whatever, I mean, yeah. Maybe even a G, I don't know.

• 36:08Speaker 04

  My flashbulb memories of movies as a kid, I remember coming down, um, from my room, and my parents were watching Return of the Jedi, and Jabba the Hutt was on the screen, and it freaked me out.

• 36:21David Sims?

  Yeah, well, he's no good.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  He's no good.

• 36:23David Sims?

  He's a gangster.

• 36:25Griffin Newman?

  Excuse me, he's a businessman.

• 36:26David Sims?

  And he is the father of Johnny Allen White, thank god, so.

• 36:29Speaker 04

  What scared me about Jabba was not that he was a gangster, it was not, it wasn't his crime.

• 36:34David Sims?

  Oh, I guess you love criminality, then.

• 36:36Griffin Newman?

  Oh, so you wanna tax him less?

• 36:38David Sims?

  I guess you love racketeering. Desert racketeering.

• 36:42Speaker 04

  And then I have this flashbulb memory of sitting on the couch next to my parents during the child abduction scene of Close Encounters. And it's funny because I don't think I, I think I watched it then. It had a big impact. And then the next time I watched it was I.

• 36:58Griffin Newman?

  My same experience. We went and saw it when they re-released it for the 40th anniversary. I checked, so that was 2017, two years into our decade of dreams. And yes, I had the same thing where I was like, the movie lived really large in my mind. I was eager to see it again because I was like, this is one of the Spielberg masterpieces. I haven't revisited since leaving this huge impression. I think both of us walked out of that screening being a little like, that movie's weird.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  It's different than the movie I remember.

• 37:25Griffin Newman?

  That was the thing.

• 37:26David Sims?

  Because everyone just remembers the kid abduction in the last 20 minutes.

• 37:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 37:30David Sims?

  And I really think that's what most people, and I guess mashed potatoes.

• 37:33Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say, all the obsession stuff.

• 37:35David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 37:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  And when you're a kid, your perception of the characters and how they're behaving is different than your perception of it as an adult.

• 37:42Griffin Newman?

  The big thing.

• 37:43Speaker 04

  Which is, my opinion of these characters as an adult is, I would say, I'm, I'm much more critical of the adult characters in this movie than when I'm a kid. I'm just like, oh, the adults must be doing the right thing. And now I look at it and I understand more of the complexity there.

• 38:00David Sims?

  And it's not a movie about them doing the right thing, to be clear. But when you're a kid, you're just not.

• 38:02Griffin Newman?

  Spike Lee made a great film about that. If you want, if that's what you're looking for in your movie going experience?

• 38:07Speaker 04

  About people doing the right thing.

• 38:09Griffin Newman?

  Spike Lee made one of the best films on that subject.

• 38:10David Sims?

  Always do the right thing.

• 38:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Well, not always Spielberg made, do the right thing Spike Lee made.

• 38:15David Sims?

  Right. Yeah, that's a good point.

• 38:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 38:17David Sims?

  Steven Spielberg, I'm gonna take you all the way back to his childhood, something he's never discussed.

• 38:22Griffin Newman?

  So I ask one thing before.

• 38:23David Sims?

  Yeah, what is it?

• 38:24Griffin Newman?

  We dig into the dossier. Which version did all of you watch for this episode?

• 38:27David Sims?

  For this episode, I watched the director's cut.

• 38:29Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 38:30David Sims?

  I guess the most recent cut. My dad definitely showed me, I guess, what was the, the special edition or whatever, the sort of like, I think that's what he showed me back in the day.

• 38:39Griffin Newman?

  Have you not seen it at all between childhood and?

• 38:41David Sims?

  I think I've seen it one more time in between. It's, it's, it's definitely not one of my movies, but it's also, it is quite lodged in the brain, I guess, for the same sort of childhood reasons. But no, I have the 4K. It's been sitting on the shelf.

• 38:56Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:56David Sims?

  And I.

• 38:57Griffin Newman?

  Did you get the box that plays the music or the steel?

• 38:59David Sims?

  No, I didn't get, I have the steel, you know, like.

• 39:02Griffin Newman?

  It's one where you push the button and you'll never believe what sound comes out of it.

• 39:07David Sims?

  Red X's Cotton Eye Joe.

• 39:12David Sims?

  And, uh, wait, I can't even, oh, uh, this time I watched the director's cut, which I don't think I'd ever seen before, probably. The one that's sort of like, sort of like the special edition with a little stuff out.

• 39:22Griffin Newman?

  Well, we'll get into the differences, but my, my belief is that, cause the special edition, what was, was what was in circulation for a long time.

• 39:31David Sims?

  Right. That was the one he wanted out there for a long time.

• 39:33Griffin Newman?

  Well, I think even when he regretted, it took a while for him to be able to do the new version. So I think I must've seen the special edition originally. We saw the director's cut at the re-release, so I watched theatrical last night.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  I watched whatever Apple had.

• 39:48Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 39:49David Sims?

  Probably the theatric, I don't, honestly, I don't know.

• 39:53Speaker 04

  Couldn't tell you.

• 39:54David Sims?

  Couldn't tell you, but listen, what's important is that when Steven Spielberg was a child, one day, uh, this is in his Arizona era, so I guess he's a young teen. His dad woke him up in the middle of the night, rushed him out of the car in his pajamas, and they drove, you know, for like an hour, half an hour, uh, to the desert. And then there's a lot of people on the side of the road laying down and they lay down too, and they watch a meteor shower. And it's, you know, his dad, obviously this big nerd, sort of a Paul Dano type, uh, kind of haunted, sort of feels like Seth Rogen cucked him at some point in his life.

• 40:29Griffin Newman?

  And how would you describe his mom?

• 40:31David Sims?

  Uh, you know, kind of just like this, like willowy, energetic, pixie cut, Michelle Williams.

• 40:37Griffin Newman?

  Cut it. Okay.

• 40:39David Sims?

  And like one of his sisters definitely is like a Julia Butters type.

• 40:43Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure. That gives me a lot to go off of.

• 40:45David Sims?

  Yeah. An indelible memory for Spielberg. Both, both his dad kind of behaving in this maniacal way, I think, like, which I think was not what his dad was usually like.

• 40:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, right.

• 40:55David Sims?

  But then obviously the majesty of the night sky and, you know, the other worlds. And of course, I think what then happens is his dad starts being like, so what's happening? There's meteors or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and Spielberg's like, shh, like, the majesty of the night sky is what I'm taking away from this. His dad was a nerd. Kind of a Paul Dano type.

• 41:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I saw the movie.

• 41:14David Sims?

  So when, uh, he's 17 years old, Steven Spielberg makes a movie called Firelight, which you cannot watch, but is like a two and a half hour amateur science fiction epic.

• 41:25Griffin Newman?

  Scoring in his town, pay tickets.

• 41:27David Sims?

  Right. It's the last thing he makes before he, you know, gets his bindle and goes off to California to make real movies.

• 41:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 41:34David Sims?

  Yeah. It's like the end of his sort of teenage amateur.

• 41:37Griffin Newman?

  Amblin is the first thing that he's like showing to studios to try to get hired.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  And his dad helps him make Firelight, I believe.

• 41:43David Sims?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, again, in the Fableman's, I mean, sorry, that's not a movie that exists. In reality, you can see like, you know, how the community would pitch in his friends and all that shit, right?

• 41:55Griffin Newman?

  The dreams, are we doing a bit where we pretend the Fableman's doesn't exist?

• 41:59Speaker 04

  I was like, are you going back to the Star Wars era where you're like, well?

• 42:02David Sims?

  His dad was like a Paul Dino type. I'm not saying Paul Dino or whatever player.

• 42:06Griffin Newman?

  Of course not.

• 42:08David Sims?

  And in 1970, apparently Spielberg wrote a short story called Experiences. Do you guys know about this?

• 42:14Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 42:14David Sims?

  Uh, which was sort of like a Lover's Lane set, you know, it's like a small midwestern town and it's kids at Lover's Lane watching a meteor shower. So he's plucking memories, okay? And then post Sugarland Express Spielberg's thinking about UFOs again, and maybe it's like, should I do a UFO movie? Should I, he wanted to maybe do a documentary about UFO, like, you know, abductee type people? You know, people who, you know, 50s, 60s said they were abducted, realizes quickly like, I'm gonna need some money. Right? I can't just fucking firelight.

• 42:47Griffin Newman?

  Well, the thing I read was that he, he sort of goes to Columbia. They're interested in the idea of him doing a UFO film. He has that in development. And then he's sort of like, the vision I have in my head would require so much money. I couldn't do it for $2 million, say, which is maybe what they would give me now. So then he starts reconceiving it as like, do I do it as a fake documentary? Do I do it in the style of newsreel footage? Like, he's trying to figure out a Cloverfield approach almost.

• 43:15David Sims?

  Probably to save money as well as anything else.

• 43:17Griffin Newman?

  Money. Yes. He's like, I, no one's gonna give me the resources to make the vision I have in my head.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Connoisseur, may I add some context? He also told the story on a Tom Snyder interview that I watched last night.

• 43:29Griffin Newman?

  Well, well, well.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  He was a, uh, Boy Scout.

• 43:33David Sims?

  And he was like, very into it, would go every single weekend to go camping. And the one time he was sick and missed it, they had a UFO experience.

• 43:45Speaker 03

  Fuck.

• 43:45David Sims?

  So he

• 43:46Speaker 03

  The troop.

• 43:47David Sims?

  Or at least they're all like, we saw this.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  They witnessed some kind of weird light.

• 43:50David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  And there were like 30 witnesses and that always really stuck with him.

• 43:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. And the, the book, it references that, that, um, he has several instances throughout his life where other people saw UFOs and he was supposed to be there.

• 44:03David Sims?

  Right. He was snoozing.

• 44:05Speaker 04

  Including during the making of this film.

• 44:07David Sims?

  Well, he, when he's making this film, he's stirring it up in people's brains too. Right. He's suggesting it to people. Okay. So he throws the alien idea vaguely at Gloria Katz and Willard Hayek, Hayek, who wrote American Graffiti. They're like, eh, we don't care. Throws it to Paul Schrader, very young Paul Schrader at that point. Paul Schrader, I think, did, you know, was somewhat involved in the crafting of this script. Uh, and in 1973, he signs a development deal with Columbia for a movie called Watch the Skies.

• 44:37Griffin Newman?

  Which is larger than the strength of duel.

• 44:39David Sims?

  Uh, right. And, uh, right. It wasn't at Fox, um, which I guess, I don't know why Fox would have been the first choice, but whatever. Um, Michael Phillips and Julia Phillips, who had just made The Sting, uh, really liked duel. And so they come on as producers. They're obviously hot producers. Julia Phillips wrote the famous book, You'll Never Eat Lunch in This Town Again. She's a legendary Hollywood figure, uh, exposed the fact that some people do cocaine in Hollywood. Crazy stuff.

• 45:08Griffin Newman?

  And some people eat lunch.

• 45:10David Sims?

  And some people will never.

• 45:11Griffin Newman?

  Some people are banned.

• 45:13David Sims?

  And it's set to be made in 1974, but then Spielberg gets put on Jaws. The script is seen as sort of not done.

• 45:21Griffin Newman?

  Universal deal. If they wanna put him on something, he's gotta do it.

• 45:24David Sims?

  And I think they're, both Spielberg and the Phillipses are like, this script needs to bake. It's not, we're not quite ready.

• 45:30Griffin Newman?

  But also at that time, it was much more like, he wanted to make a movie about like the government hiding evidence of UFOs.

• 45:36David Sims?

  More of a Watergate style conspiracy thriller. Yes.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  So what I had read about was that the original premise was that it was about a guy who worked for Project Blue Book. And his job was to discredit people who had seen UFOs.

• 45:51David Sims?

  Someone would say, I've seen UFO and this guy comes in to debunk.

• 45:54Speaker 04

  Yes. And then he sees a UFO and then his whole life is turned topsy turvy and he has to figure it out. They wrote a draft of it and then were like, this is boring.

• 46:06David Sims?

  I think they were like.

• 46:07Speaker 04

  And then had Schrader do a version.

• 46:08David Sims?

  Yes.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  And apparently Schrader's, oh, sorry.

• 46:10David Sims?

  Well, it's okay. No, you go ahead.

• 46:13Speaker 04

  Sorry, I thought you were done with the script section.

• 46:14David Sims?

  I'm never done.

• 46:15Speaker 04

  Keep going.

• 46:16David Sims?

  I mean, well, I will be done, but the boy, uh-oh, the bar is pretty small on this one. JJ.

• 46:22David Sims?

  No, you're like, that's the original script and they decide that, I guess that Watergate's passe. Like it's that quickly. They're kind of like, eh. There's been a lot of conspiracy.

• 46:33Speaker 04

  The Schrader version apparently is just like hyper religious pseudo.

• 46:37David Sims?

  I can tell you that it was called Kingdom Come and Spielberg says it was one of the most embarrassing screenplays ever professionally turned into a major studio.

• 46:46Griffin Newman?

  You might be surprised to hear that it was a film about a man struggling with guilt.

• 46:50David Sims?

  Yes, it was a Schrader was like, uh, I don't think the script is good, but I, I deserve credit for changing Spielberg's mind on like, it shouldn't be a Watergate thriller essentially. It should be about someone having a spiritual experience, which is what the movie is, you know, definitely on that track.

• 47:08Griffin Newman?

  I feel like in Schrader's draft, it was a cop, like Spielberg after that, he, he doesn't want to write the film. He's bringing so many other writers in. It's shortly after that that he's like, let me just fucking try it. But the other thing that's happening is these earlier drafts are coming through. He's like, that's not right. That feels too rote. What am I like trying to get at that I can't express here? But also every draft he's getting is like, they're never going to make, give me the money to make this at the level I want. Cause I think what he's very aware of is not wanting to make something that feels like a sci-fi B picture. Like his whole vision for this, before he can even figure out what the story is, is like, can you make something that feels tangible and real and feels like kind of a quote unquote accurate representation of what a UFO encounter would feel like.

• 47:52David Sims?

  Schrader.

• 47:53Griffin Newman?

  Rather than saucer men from Mars.

• 47:54David Sims?

  Paul Schrader, there is no point in Paul Schrader's life where he is a particularly commercially minded writer, obviously, or director.

• 48:01Griffin Newman?

  Master Gardner.

• 48:04David Sims?

  Right? Like, and Schrader is like, I mean, like the epitome, of course, being Schrader's Exorcist movie where he's like, "Studio, do you like what I made?" This like very quiet throw. And they're like, "Is anyone even gonna get exorcised? Are there demons? Where's the blood?"

• 48:17Griffin Newman?

  Not only that, they're like, "We need to establish a new way of telling you we don't like your movie."

• 48:21Speaker 04

  I also feel like for-

• 48:23Griffin Newman?

  The first movie to unexist.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  For Schrader, I feel like he made that weird move towards the mainstream when-

• 48:30David Sims?

  Oh, boy.

• 48:32Speaker 04

  No, this is serious.

• 48:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 48:33David Sims?

  He made that-

• 48:35Griffin Newman?

  This is very serious.

• 48:36David Sims?

  When he was fighting the turtles under the dock.

• 48:39Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 48:39David Sims?

  And then the dock fell on him and the moose fell on him.

• 48:42Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 48:42David Sims?

  And then he became super-

• 48:43Griffin Newman?

  Super Schrader? Yeah. That was a, that was a pretty mainstream sellout move to become super Schrader.

• 48:49David Sims?

  That's, what if the turtles had said that? Like, "You're, you're selling out." Like, "Super Schrader's coming out." And like, "This is so mainstream of you."

• 48:58Speaker 04

  The movies was like, "Yeah, the Ninja Turtles were good, but why are they fighting Paul Schrader?" He's just like, "God is real! God is dead!" He's just screaming about God.

• 49:09Griffin Newman?

  But look, Paul Schrader's had a lot of ups and downs in his career, right?

• 49:12David Sims?

  Sure.

• 49:12Griffin Newman?

  There was like, you know, the kind of like 90s period where he wasn't like financeable and he went back in time to feudal Japan.

• 49:25Griffin Newman?

  Which wasn't a great decision. That cost him.

• 49:27David Sims?

  And then eventually, you know, he goes back in the shadows. But then he came out of the shadows.

• 49:30Griffin Newman?

  He came out of the shadows.

• 49:31David Sims?

  Look, Schrader says that his idea was for a modern day Saint Paul named Saint Paul Van Owen, who is the debunker. He's still got that concept, but then he has his own encounter. And basically Schrader says like, "The only thing, like the idea of the mountain, like the sort of, like that was in my idea." So like that, Spielberg used that. But then he says, "What I had done was write a character with the resonances of Lear, a Shakespearean tragic hero, and Stephen couldn't get behind that. I said to him, 'I refuse to send off to another world as the first example of Earth's intelligence, a man who wants to go and set up a McDonald's franchise.'" And Spielberg said, "That's exactly who I want to send."

• 50:10Griffin Newman?

  But that's

• 50:11David Sims?

  And Schrader's like, we had this instructive ideological disagreement where Schrader's like, no, it should be a, a modern Lear. And Spielberg's like, no, it should be like a guy in a flannel shirt. Like, this is a Frank Capra thing. I want an everyman.

• 50:23Griffin Newman?

  Two big things that come out of that, right? One is Schrader makes this film where it's like a man's looking for meaning in like the response from the guys and the aliens. And then he finds that he has to come in to terms with the spiritual crisis inside himself, that that's the answer. Spielberg's like, I don't want to make that, but you're right. This should be more of a spiritual thing. Like, I want it to actually be about the aliens and not the guy, but

• 50:44David Sims?

  That's the advance that gets made, right?

• 50:47Griffin Newman?

  And then the second advance is he's making these films, he's going through these scripts and these story ideas where it's someone who has a role that is integral to the interaction between humans and UFOs, someone who works for the government in some capacity or this or that. And he's like, no, it should just be some guy. There's this sort of like contagion like thing of this where it's just like, make the movie about just people experiencing this.

• 51:14Speaker 04

  I also feel like

• 51:15David Sims?

  Conspiracy stuff on the edges, like the missing planes.

• 51:18Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's the contagion part of it.

• 51:19David Sims?

  Exactly, right, right, right.

• 51:21Speaker 04

  To me, I feel like this is also the first, this is a total just me, my own taste here, but I think it's the first Spielberg that we see Spielberg diving into the self to make a movie. And it's not a capital M movie. It's him being like, there's, I mean, we can get into all of it.

• 51:42Griffin Newman?

  But you know, the three screenplay credits he has on his own films?

• 51:46Speaker 04

  What are they?

• 51:47Griffin Newman?

  Close Encounters, AI and Fableman's.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  Right.

• 51:50Griffin Newman?

  Like, something's very instructive about those being the three.

• 51:53Speaker 04

  Well, I also, later I want to go over, I have a whole Spielberg theory of

• 51:57David Sims?

  Look,

• 51:58Speaker 04

  types of movies.

• 51:58David Sims?

  The thing about those three credits is with Close Encounters, he says, look, I only wrote it because I couldn't find anyone who would wanted to write it the way I wanted to write it. So I had to do it myself. But no, there is no doubt that many, many people worked on this script. Hal Barwood and Matthew Robins from Sugarland Express, John Hill, David Geiler, Jerry Belson, Schrader, like, and Schrader. And Julie Phillips in her memoir says that she kind of put pressure on people to back off re-arbitration. Schrader says, I withdrew from credit arbitration, which I regret because like, I would have made a lot of fucking money if I had my name on that thing. Um, but it is Spielberg's script. Like, I think everyone who worked on it will still say, like, it's his script.

• 52:36Griffin Newman?

  And everyone who worked on it kind of helped him get there.

• 52:40David Sims?

  Right, exactly. Right. AI, it's like, well, that's kind of Kubrick's movie and Spielberg, like, puts it together, makes it work, and that's why he gets the credit, I guess. Fabelman's, he wrote it with Eric Roth, right?

• 52:50Griffin Newman?

  With Tony Kushner.

• 52:51David Sims?

  Tony Kushner.

• 52:52Griffin Newman?

  That dank ass Kush. But I think the commonality between those three films is it feels like with all three of them, even though AI is starting with someone else's material, it's like, there's a feeling of what I want to capture here that I cannot figure out.

• 53:04David Sims?

  And I can't tell someone how to get there.

• 53:06Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 53:06David Sims?

  Usually I can, but.

• 53:08Griffin Newman?

  Usually I can hire someone and give them a very clear, like, marching order. Those, Close Encounters in AI feel like there's some form of therapy of him just needing to, like, pull something out to get it there. And then Fabelman's is him, like, hiring Tony Kushner to be like, this one's so painful, I need you to literally sit on the other.

• 53:25David Sims?

  I'll tell you the stories.

• 53:27Griffin Newman?

  Right, and help me, like, get this out.

• 53:29David Sims?

  Distill it, right.

• 53:30Speaker 04

  I feel like it is no secret that Steven Spielberg's divorce that he experienced as a child.

• 53:39Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm. He got divorced young, like, five, six?

• 53:41Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, had an impact on the types of stories he was telling, and I think you can go through and pick out the films in Spielberg's careers that are in some way reckoning with that element of his life.

• 53:53David Sims?

  What are the ones you would pick?

• 53:54Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 53:55David Sims?

  Go ahead.

• 53:56Speaker 04

  I made my list.

• 53:56David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 04

  Um, I have to look at it.

• 53:58David Sims?

  I want to see if I agree.

• 53:59Speaker 04

  Okay. I think Close Encounters is the first obvious one.

• 54:02David Sims?

  Right.

• 54:02Speaker 04

  E.T.

• 54:04David Sims?

  Oh, yeah? Is that one, is that one present in that one?

• 54:06Speaker 04

  Poltergeist.

• 54:07David Sims?

  Sure. I mean, not.

• 54:09Speaker 04

  Goonies.

• 54:10David Sims?

  Boo.

• 54:11Speaker 04

  Empire of the Sun.

• 54:12David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah, a little bit at least.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  Last Crusade.

• 54:15David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 54:15Speaker 04

  Hook. Jurassic Park.

• 54:18David Sims?

  To some extent.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  Saving Private Ryan.

• 54:21David Sims?

  Where's that one? Where's the divorce in that one?

• 54:24Speaker 04

  I think, I think there is a-

• 54:25David Sims?

  A lot of people get divorced from their lives on Omaha Beach.

• 54:28Speaker 04

  And I think, I think that is the, the melding of the two versions of, because it's about this feeling of sense of self and family and being alone and that, that, the fantasy of, of rescue.

• 54:42David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, it's a movie I love to think about in that way.

• 54:45Griffin Newman?

  The amount of his films that in some way deal with the separation of parent and child.

• 54:49David Sims?

  Or like, yeah, creation of new family units, things like that.

• 54:52Griffin Newman?

  But Saving Private Ryan has that thing of like, the government intervening and being like, we can't-

• 54:57David Sims?

  This family cannot be destroyed.

• 54:59Griffin Newman?

  -give bad news to his mother a fourth time.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  AI.

• 55:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 55:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. War of the Worlds.

• 55:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 04

  And The Fableman's.

• 55:05David Sims?

  Yeah, he kind of takes a divorce break after War of the Worlds. Maybe he's even like, Jesus, enough with this.

• 55:10Speaker 04

  But also, I want to be clear.

• 55:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 04

  That is not a criticism.

• 55:13Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  I think I, I am someone that believes that when-

• 55:17David Sims?

  It's a little bit in Lincoln. A little bit of that in Lincoln.

• 55:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I could, yes. I think when artists tell the same stories or have the same themes recurring in their work, it's often that's levied as a criticism of it. And I'm like, that's what I think is interesting because it means there was something there, like, in, in the-

• 55:34David Sims?

  It's the thing that annoys me about like YouTube accounts that are like, um, he kind of redoes the same stuff. And I'm like, yeah, you're talking about an artist, like-

• 55:41Griffin Newman?

  But also, it's even Spielberg, like, he's done it in such wildly different ways.

• 55:45David Sims?

  And it's been seen by so many people, so it's the first example.

• 55:48Griffin Newman?

  He's not just making like autobiography every time.

• 55:51Speaker 04

  Right. And that's what I think is interesting is it's like, oh, he's going to make his Peter Pan movie. And it's like, well, it actually ends up being about this theme. He's going to make his movie about rope. Well, it's, and it, it all gets pulled back towards the magnetic core of these things that he's trying to work out unconsciously.

• 56:05Griffin Newman?

  But also, like-

• 56:06Speaker 04

  You know, in my assumptions.

• 56:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, yeah. Analysis of his work in like the seventies, eighties, even through the nineties is just like, man, this guy really never got over his parents getting divorced, which I think was a, a very fun thing for people to try to like, to notice. Yes, but also it's just like, I guess, you know, in the same way that he was like the first generation of filmmakers who were raised on TV and shit like this, you know, that he represents- To these cultural shifts. It's like divorce was becoming more commonplace. He's one of the first major filmmakers who was able to make personal films, go through an experience like that. It felt sort of novel, whereas today you'd be like, yeah, a lot of people get divorced. What are you, what are you talking about? But, but we now look back on it and you're like, over the years, more and more details came out where it's like,

• 56:50Griffin Newman?

  it's not like what fucking shook him to his core is just that like his mom and dad stopped being married. Like all the weird wrinkles and the things that I think you see in like Close Encounters, him trying to work through, which is like, why did my dad like leave and kind of never reengage with us? You know, which he ultimately comes to realize as an adult was like a combination of shame and protectiveness and whatever.

• 57:14David Sims?

  Reputation for the kids.

• 57:15Griffin Newman?

  But at the time, the shit like in Close Encounters where he's just like, I would never make that movie that way today. I'd never have him just leave his fucking kids behind. I think that's what's so interesting about this movie. And that comes from a place in his journey with all of that, where he's just like, this is what it looked like to me. Like my dad just got fucking like walked onto a spaceship and I don't fucking know what was driving him. It made no sense what was pulling him out of the house.

• 57:39Speaker 04

  I also think there's a universality to that feeling beyond.

• 57:42David Sims?

  The, the studio is called Universal.

• 57:44Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And this is a Columbia picture.

• 57:46David Sims?

  Columbia picture. So there's more of a Columbia-ality to this one.

• 57:49Griffin Newman?

  It's actually pretty foolish of you to say when you've read two books on the movie.

• 57:52Speaker 04

  I think there's a Columbia-ality to, to these films though, where it's not just about.

• 57:58David Sims?

  What if I did that as a critic where I'm like, this is a foxy movie. He's like, you mean it was released by Fox? Yeah, this is foxy.

• 58:04Speaker 04

  This thing is, this thing's foxying it up out here.

• 58:06Griffin Newman?

  It's not too late to start doing that.

• 58:08David Sims?

  That could.

• 58:08Griffin Newman?

  You're just going back to work now, ending your paternity.

• 58:11David Sims?

  I'll do that with the two Fox movies a year or whatever, whatever we're going to get new.

• 58:14Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, you just call it a complete unknown. Through the lion's gates.

• 58:19Griffin Newman?

  Um, locks shattered.

• 58:22Speaker 04

  Locks shattered in the lion's gate. The lions are out. There's a universality to it. Beyond it being his personal experience, these movies all touch the zeitgeist in a major way because these feelings of.

• 58:36Speaker 04

  Child parent dynamics and feeling alone or the world feeling out of control and feeling small and large at the same time are things that are universal. So even if it's coming from a place that is a specific core feeling of his, I think, what?

• 58:51Griffin Newman?

  David said Columbia again.

• 58:52David Sims?

  It's such an easy joke.

• 58:54Speaker 04

  It's not, it's barely a joke.

• 58:56David Sims?

  That's why it's easy.

• 58:57Griffin Newman?

  I think it's gonna get really funny if we say it a couple more times. No, I think you're right. And there's something interesting. I don't know. This like really worked for me on this rewatch.

• 59:06David Sims?

  It's a great movie for like melancholy people in their 30s as well. And also people who are dealing with, uh, who think too much about the state of the modern blockbuster. Not that this movie was a traditional blockbuster, but you watch it and you're like, this was a gigantic movie, right? Imagine, huh? What the sting was.

• 59:26Speaker 04

  The state of the modern blockbuster. I think, David, I think they're in most states.

• 59:33David Sims?

  It's not bad. And I appreciate you trying to jab me back. But I don't know. I think we could do better.

• 59:40Griffin Newman?

  Is it Cravens one playing in Oklahoma? It's playing all 50 nifty United States.

• 59:45David Sims?

  You know, you're just watching it, this contemplative movie that's mostly kind of a bummer. And, you know, it's so boring to say, but they wouldn't make it like this anymore.

• 59:56Griffin Newman?

  But this is what's so fascinating about, I mean, like blank, maybe the check wasn't blank, right? But like, he has a certain control of the checkbook at this point. He's going through this development process in a wonderkin state of just like, this kid's got a lot of potential. We're willing to hear him out. He's got these two producers supporting him who then immediately win best picture. So that gives him extra force, right? But in this pre-Jaws era, he's like, ah, fuck, can't put my finger on what it is, revolving door of writers, my vision's too big for the budget. I don't know. I'm frustrated. They hand me Jaws. Jaws is a blockbuster. Then he goes back and it's like, I'm ready to make, this is my next movie.

• 1:00:32David Sims?

  I now have all the juice.

• 1:00:33Griffin Newman?

  Columbia is like wetting their lips. They're like, fuck, we lucked out.

• 1:00:36David Sims?

  We have him. We already signed the deal. Right.

• 1:00:38Griffin Newman?

  We get the next Spielberg blockbuster. And he's like, I don't want to make it like a kind of blockbuster-y thing. And they're like, please make Jaws with aliens.

• 1:00:45David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:45Griffin Newman?

  And he then like has this new confidence to be like, I'm really gonna get into my feelings.

• 1:00:50David Sims?

  Well, so let me get back to the dossier. So he meets this guy, director Jay Allen Heink, Heineck?

• 1:00:56Speaker 04

  From Northwestern.

• 1:00:57David Sims?

  Hey, Chicago boy.

• 1:00:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00David Sims?

  Abbotston, but still, you know, who I guess is sort of an inspiration for like this kind of debunker character they were originally gonna do. He's the one who has the three kinds of encounters, right? The first kind, second kind, third kind that Spielberg uses for the title.

• 1:01:19Griffin Newman?

  Good title, because up until that point, it was still Watch the Skies.

• 1:01:21David Sims?

  Yeah, which is fine. Or Schrader's movie that was called whatever, like St. Paul Reborn, or like, you know, jerking off onto the cross, or whatever Schrader had submitted.

• 1:01:30Griffin Newman?

  Close Encounters of the Third Kind is just such an evocative title that also is so mysterious, like, explain that to me. And the tagline is, what you read, where it's just like, a tagline being like, let me tell you what this is, is kind of intriguing.

• 1:01:45Speaker 04

  I also read that they had to, it was Watch the Skies, then Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and then the Northwestern guy was like, that's my thing. Close Encounters of the Third Kind, you can't use it. And that's when Spielberg and the press were like, well, what if we pay for the rights to your book, and then you come work on the thing? And he's like, okay, I'll do that.

• 1:02:07David Sims?

  Right. Classic Hollywood style.

• 1:02:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09David Sims?

  So, obviously, Steven Spielberg is like, well, I had such a good time working with my friend Richard Dreyfuss, he'll be the lead of my movie. Not at all.

• 1:02:18Griffin Newman?

  Easy.

• 1:02:19David Sims?

  He had told Richard Dreyfuss on the set of Jaws, like, here's a movie I'm, you know, working on.

• 1:02:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:02:24David Sims?

  And Richard Dreyfuss spends the whole time on Jaws when he's not, I guess, being like, I'm sunburnt, and this sucks, and fuck you. He's like, I want to do that movie, I'm your guy for that movie.

• 1:02:33Griffin Newman?

  The woke.

• 1:02:34David Sims?

  But Spielberg is like, no, you're Hooper in Jaws. Like, so I can't think of you as fucking another, you know, another character.

• 1:02:41Griffin Newman?

  Which we'll talk about this in the Raiders episode, but like, Lucas had the same thing of like, I don't want to be reusing the same guys. I think part of that is probably, once again, this sort of new kind of O'Turris generation, as much as they adored people like John Ford and Howard Hawks and whatever, were probably like a little weary of being like. We don't want to be in a factory line where we're making four movies a year and working with the same star and some of them mush together.

• 1:03:09David Sims?

  No, but I think the other thing is Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, et cetera. And because Steven Spielberg's first choice of the part was Steve McQueen. I think he's like, I want to work with the movie stars that I fucking love. Like, I'm hot stuff.

• 1:03:21Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:03:21David Sims?

  Can I have Steve McQueen, please?

• 1:03:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23David Sims?

  And Steve McQueen.

• 1:03:24Griffin Newman?

  Richard Dreyfuss at home, literally. He's on my couch, he won't leave.

• 1:03:27David Sims?

  Exactly. Yeah. Steve McQueen reads the screenplay and then agrees to meet with him and they meet at a bar called The Dune Room. And there was a fistfight, apparently, and Steve wanted to break it up. And I assume Steve had like a kind of a cool coat on and maybe smoked some grass and was like, hey, your script's cool, man.

• 1:03:43Griffin Newman?

  Which Steve? You're saying Spielberg had a cool coat on with smoking grass?

• 1:03:46David Sims?

  I'm sure Spielberg was at a door.

• 1:03:47Griffin Newman?

  Tried to break up a fight?

• 1:03:49David Sims?

  I mean, and like, it's so fat, you know, and McQueen is basically like, I can't cry, like, on film.

• 1:03:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56David Sims?

  I just am not going to be able to play this character. Like, I'm, there's a, you know, there's a self-awareness with McQueen, I think, which is always true, where he's just like, I can really just do what I do. You're not going to, you know, chisel away at me and somehow get me to turn into a new kind of actor.

• 1:04:14Griffin Newman?

  What's interesting is also, 1977, this same year, Sorcerer, which is William Friedkin's Blank Check movie, coming off a big Best Picture win and such, that studio really wanted Steve McQueen for that. And he put his foot down and was like, fucking star of Jaws, Roy Scheider. And Friedkin always says that he regretted it, that he was just like, I thought Scheider was the right guy for the role.

• 1:04:40David Sims?

  And Scheider is awesome in that movie.

• 1:04:42Griffin Newman?

  Incredible in that movie.

• 1:04:42David Sims?

  But it is, it's interesting to imagine McQueen making a movie like that, be it Close Encounters or Sorcerer.

• 1:04:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:04:48David Sims?

  Like a new Hollywood movie.

• 1:04:49Griffin Newman?

  Because here's the thing, like, Sorcerer is a new Hollywood movie that his type fits into. That's not asking McQueen to do something outside of his movie star persona, whereas Close Encounters wouldn't work. It would be a calamity if he were in it.

• 1:05:05David Sims?

  It probably wouldn't work unless, what if it worked? Wow, cool to imagine. But yeah, it probably wouldn't.

• 1:05:09Griffin Newman?

  Sure. But I think that's an entirely different character. The script would have to be rewritten so thoroughly.

• 1:05:15David Sims?

  Yeah, and also, like, why are there talking cars in this universe would be the big question.

• 1:05:20Griffin Newman?

  Great point. Kachow.

• 1:05:22David Sims?

  So Spielberg then goes to Dustin Hoffman, he goes to Al Pacino, he goes to Gene Hackman, he goes to a lot of like, the new Hollywood people. Makes sense. They all turn him down. So finally with his tail between his legs, he's like, you know what? Richard Dreyfuss is the modern Spencer Tracy and I'll just hire him.

• 1:05:38Griffin Newman?

  Cause Dreyfuss his whole time is like ringing his doorbell. Please, Steven.

• 1:05:43David Sims?

  And, uh, you know, Richard Dreyfuss is really good in this movie.

• 1:05:47Griffin Newman?

  He is phenomenal.

• 1:05:48David Sims?

  Like, and obviously he wins the Academy Award this year for The Goodbye Girl, but it's a combo award.

• 1:05:52Griffin Newman?

  I, I never put that together somehow. It makes his best actor win make a lot more sense when you consider this movie comes out in the same year and is such a blockbuster. The other thing that I, in looking at the Oscar year, couldn't believe was that this wasn't nominated for Best Picture.

• 1:06:09David Sims?

  It wasn't. They gave the sci-fi spot to, uh, Star Wars. I really feel like that was it.

• 1:06:13Speaker 04

  Fascinating.

• 1:06:14David Sims?

  Like, it was enough of a stretch for the Oscars to recognize one sci-fi movie as Best Picture, and it's gonna be Star Wars. That thing is the global phenomenon of the year.

• 1:06:21Griffin Newman?

  That's what's wild is like in any-

• 1:06:22David Sims?

  Spielberg gets the directing nod.

• 1:06:24Griffin Newman?

  Right. Whereas Jaws, they did the opposite. Jaws, they gave him like the blockbuster, look, your film was so big, we have to give it a Best Picture nomination, but you're not serious enough for Best Director. And then this time they flip it.

• 1:06:35David Sims?

  They, they, um, don't give The Goodbye Girl, which got a Best Picture nom, they don't give Herbert Ross, you know, Spielberg comes in for Herbert Ross in director.

• 1:06:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:06:44David Sims?

  But it's- But Herbert Ross was nominated for The Turning Point. He made two Best Picture movies that year. That's why, that's why.

• 1:06:50Griffin Newman?

  That's why. No, it's, it's very bizarre to me. There's a certain part of me that's like, you know, Annie Hall wins this year. People are like, Star Wars should have won. Not just because of modern cultural reappraisal of Woody Allen, but because-

• 1:07:05David Sims?

  But Annie Hall winning, oh, sorry, go on.

• 1:07:06Griffin Newman?

  No, but a lot of people go like, Star Wars was so transformative for the industry. There'd been no movie like that before, not just because of its success and what it pioneered technology, but that film is so culturally important, that feels like the more meaningful Best Picture win. I rewatched this last night, I'm like, this would have made sense as a Best Picture winner.

• 1:07:23Speaker 04

  It's also interesting that there's two sort of seminal sci-fi films that happen in the same year.

• 1:07:28David Sims?

  The same year.

• 1:07:28Speaker 04

  But that fork, the genre, and totally different directors.

• 1:07:31Griffin Newman?

  Right. Like, one of them is just like, we're going total space opera, like childhood fantasy, mythic, and the other one is like, this is the first real alien. In movie, you know, in its approach, they famously like wanted to swap their backend points on the movies because each guy was convinced that their movie was gonna flop and the other guy had a hit. And they both had the feeling of like, they're not both gonna work. Audiences are gonna want one or the other. And it's insane that they both worked and you're like, if Star Wars hadn't come out this year, Close Encounters would have been the highest grossing movie of all time.

• 1:08:07David Sims?

  Uh, is that right?

• 1:08:08Griffin Newman?

  Maybe, I mean, I think it outgrossed Jaws at the time.

• 1:08:11David Sims?

  Uh, I don't think so, but it was a big hit. It made a hundred and sixteen million dollars. Jaws definitely made more than that. And like Exorcist and uh, Godfather had as well, I think, right?

• 1:08:20Griffin Newman?

  Well, Close Encounters was humongous.

• 1:08:22David Sims?

  It was a big movie. It was a big hit. I just want to say about Annie Hall. Yeah, I, you know, not to say, but like that movie was also revolutionary. And like it's winning for the exact same reason. It's a revolutionary movie.

• 1:08:32Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:08:32David Sims?

  And it's being recognized as such.

• 1:08:34Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:08:35David Sims?

  And it, movies like that also didn't really win Best Picture. It's a crazy year.

• 1:08:39Speaker 04

  What were all the nominees that year?

• 1:08:41Griffin Newman?

  This is what's weird is it's like a couple seismic things and then a couple of things that are so forgotten.

• 1:08:45David Sims?

  Annie Hall.

• 1:08:46Griffin Newman?

  Star Wars.

• 1:08:48David Sims?

  Um, and then three, I, the Goodbye Girl, which is a bit of a stretch as a Best Picture nominee, in my opinion, but was a huge hit. Comedy. Uh, Julia, which is like, you know, a solid Fred Zinneman, serious, you know, based on a true story movie, World War II movie. You know, like that's, that's a, and then The Turning Point, the ballet movie with Anne Bancroft and Mikhail Baryshnikov, which got a ton of noms and no wins, you know, not as well remembered.

• 1:09:16Griffin Newman?

  But Julia, like a classic kind of seventies Oscar movie that just has disappeared a little bit. A lot of it's

• 1:09:22David Sims?

  Forgotten. I think it's kind of hard to

• 1:09:24Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say.

• 1:09:24David Sims?

  These days, um, but it wins Best Supporting Actress and Best Supporting Actor.

• 1:09:28Griffin Newman?

  Turning Point and Goodbye Girl feel like the classic. You look at seventies Best Picture lineups and you're like, three like Maverick, exciting, totemic movies. And then like this shit, you know, not to be dismissive of things where you're like

• 1:09:39David Sims?

  Because Goodbye Girl is like, you get it. You're like, yeah, it's a fun comedy that made a lot of money.

• 1:09:43Griffin Newman?

  But you'll see these things that are so exciting and feel like revolutionary in the industry is like finding itself anew. And then there's stuff that feels like kind of middlebrow, even if it's good.

• 1:09:54David Sims?

  Um, but anyway, Close Encounters, anyway, but uh, He hires Dreyfus to finish that point. And then, of course, he had written the part of Claude, Claude Lencomm for François Truffaut, one of his heroes.

• 1:10:08Speaker 04

  Yes. I don't know if it's a hypocritical, but the story I had always heard was that Spielberg saw The Wild Child.

• 1:10:15David Sims?

  Correct.

• 1:10:16Speaker 04

  And was like-

• 1:10:17David Sims?

  Which is one of the only movies that Truffaut had acted in before.

• 1:10:20Speaker 04

  Right. And was like, this actor is great. Writes a letter to Truffaut and is like, I have a part for a Frenchman in my movie. Who is that guy? And he was like, that, that's me.

• 1:10:27David Sims?

  That's not, well, uh-

• 1:10:30Speaker 04

  I've heard Spielberg tell that story, but Spielberg loves to kind of create hemiter versions of stories. Yes.

• 1:10:36David Sims?

  He figured, he was a little too scared to ask Truffaut is what he says here in the dossier at least. And so he writes it sort of thinking of Truffaut, then he goes to Paris, he meets like Gerard Depardieu and Philippe Norre and Jean-Louis Trintingon, you know, all these, you know, guys. And before he's gonna offer it to Trentinon. And he's like, let me just, I'll just fucking do the Hail Mary. I'll just ask. And he sends Truffaut the script. And three days later, he gets a telegram that says, Dear Mr. Spielberg, I read the script. Where do I report for costume fitting? Sincerely, François Truffaut.

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  Cool.

• 1:11:09David Sims?

  It is cool.

• 1:11:11Speaker 04

  It is cool.

• 1:11:11David Sims?

  I love François Truffaut very much. One of the first directors I ever had a meaningful relationship with.

• 1:11:18Speaker 04

  And it's very interesting, having read the Bob Balaban diaries and hearing all this, like, for everyone, having Truffaut on set was like this. In a way, I also think what I was gleaning was that like Spielberg felt he had to be on top of his game because Truffaut was there.

• 1:11:37David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:11:37Speaker 04

  Everyone was like-

• 1:11:38David Sims?

  Keeping him correct.

• 1:11:39Speaker 04

  Everyone was like, we have to really do good because Truffaut is here. And I was trying to think, is there a modern- Director, who would be the modern director that isn't an actor, but that would act in something and people would be like, oh my God, can you believe?

• 1:11:55David Sims?

  Scorsese, I mean, there's also like Sidney Pollack when he was sort of in his grand old man face. He's less of a totemic director, but like, but I think having him on set.

• 1:12:06Griffin Newman?

  I think he is, has more, had more of his own integrity as an actor and a little bit less as a director.

• 1:12:13David Sims?

  Something like Michael Clayton, like I'm sure people are like, fuck, Sidney Pollack's here.

• 1:12:16Griffin Newman?

  I agree, but I think to some degree, he's showing up and people are like, Sidney Pollack, God, he's a good fucking actor. Like, he's a great director, but this guy's got an incredible resume just as a supporting actor. Versus Scorsese, if he's on set, you're like, this is fucking Scorsese, the king of movies. Seth Rogen, there was a piece in Vanity Fair about the Apple Plus show that I guess will probably have come out by the time. Yes, that's about the collapse of the entertainment industry with Seth Rogen playing a studio executive. And they got a lot of people to play themselves in and Scorsese's in it. And he was just talking about that feeling of like, we wrote a part for Scorsese. He agreed to do it. We're thrilled. He shows up on set. We were like, fuck. Now we have Scorsese on our set. Like, he's gonna be judging us. We have to do this correctly. And he was like, at one point I saw him in the corner and he was muttering to himself.

• 1:13:02Griffin Newman?

  And I was like, is everything okay? And he was like, yeah, you were doing the wrong thing. And I didn't want to say it because I thought it might like infantilize you. So I just like held back and said to myself, and then you guys came around and you figured it out and you started doing the right thing. But like that exact experience of him just sitting there and being like, I'm just here to act. I'm not gonna like weigh in, but they're like, we know he knows the answers. He's got it figured out. Um, this movie has, just because we're billing boys, some of the weirdest billing of all time. In the opening credits, it is starring Richard Dreyfuss with Francois Truffaut as Le Calme and.

• 1:13:38David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:13:39Griffin Newman?

  Those are the two names.

• 1:13:40Speaker 04

  Fascinating.

• 1:13:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, which you just don't see that structure ever. And then on the poster, it's only marginally different, which is starring Richard Dreyfuss, also starring Terry Garr and Melinda Dillon with Francois Truffaut as Lacombe.

• 1:13:57David Sims?

  Terry Garr.

• 1:13:58Griffin Newman?

  But the billing of this movie is like Richard Dreyfuss, one of the stars of Jaws, the man who's gonna win best actor this year, and Francois Truffaut, we're putting multiple circles around his name.

• 1:14:08David Sims?

  He's, he's a weird kind of get. He's interesting. Terry Garr, Spielberg loved her in a coffee commercial. Melinda Dillon, they were like close to production and hadn't cast that role. And Hal Ashby had just worked with her on Bound for Glory and recommended her. And, uh, you know, uh, she turned out to be the perfect choice. She gets an Oscar nomination. Balaban, uh, Spielberg liked in Midnight Cowboy.

• 1:14:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, he's great in that.

• 1:14:34David Sims?

  And he liked the idea of him with Truffaut. He was like, that's a funny team, like looks wise.

• 1:14:39Griffin Newman?

  Also, he spoke French, right?

• 1:14:41David Sims?

  But, yeah. Of course Bob Balaban speaks French. He speaks every romance like.

• 1:14:45Griffin Newman?

  Well, there's, JD's been referencing it, but Balaban kept diaries while he was filming, largely about his experience just with Truffaut, but also being part of this major movie. And then those were published in the wake of this movie being a seismic blockbuster, which you write for this episode.

• 1:14:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:15:00David Sims?

  And then, to be clear, they have a $2.7 million budget. And as you mentioned, it went up to five and a half, and then seven, and then nine, and then 11 and a half, and it ends up at 19. And Columbia was basically like, if we had started at 19, the movie never would have been made.

• 1:15:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:15:17David Sims?

  Right? Like, we didn't have the money for that kind of movie. Like, that wasn't.

• 1:15:20Griffin Newman?

  But also Columbia was in a bad place, and this movie's so successful that it's credited with saving Columbia from the brink.

• 1:15:25David Sims?

  Right. A very interesting studio that's like had weird peaks and valleys over the years. That was like, kind of like a trashy studio back in the day, and you know, then there's, yeah. Anyway.

• 1:15:34Griffin Newman?

  Want to call out as well, uh, there's a great Douglas Trumbull quote talking about how overblown the budget got in this movie, where he's like, we had a $3 million budget just for special effects. You could make a whole movie with just that. And I'm like, I did the math on adjusting for inflation in $1977, three million today would be $15 million. The notion of him saying like, it's insane how much we're spending on special effects.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  Well, since you've invoked him.

• 1:16:03Griffin Newman?

  Comedies have $15 million special effects budgets now.

• 1:16:06Speaker 04

  That Doug Trumbull at all.

• 1:16:07Griffin Newman?

  On the low end, yes.

• 1:16:09Speaker 04

  Is fascinating. So one thing on that that was funny is that reading this, this one book, they're talking about how, um, when they're figuring out the budget for the special effects, they're like, how much will this cost? And he was like, I think it'll be like $6 million of special effects.

• 1:16:24Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:16:24Speaker 04

  And the producer was like, she was like, no, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna tell them it's $1 million because otherwise they won't approve it. And then later you're gonna tell them, oops, it costs more and we'll keep upping it.

• 1:16:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Speaker 04

  And apparently she was like, this could end my career right now, but like, otherwise we won't get this done.

• 1:16:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:16:42Speaker 04

  So the fascinating thing also is Douglas Trumbull didn't want, he wanted to be doing his own stuff. He didn't want to be working on other people's films is what I, I glean from reading these books.

• 1:16:52Griffin Newman?

  This was always.

• 1:16:53David Sims?

  Every Douglas Trumbull quote has that energy to it.

• 1:16:57Speaker 04

  But do you know why he ended up doing this movie?

• 1:17:00Griffin Newman?

  Why?

• 1:17:00Speaker 04

  It gets back to some blank check lore that is very wonderful that of course we're going full circle here.

• 1:17:06Griffin Newman?

  To fun show scam?

• 1:17:07Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:17:07Griffin Newman?

  Hell yeah.

• 1:17:08Speaker 04

  So.

• 1:17:09Griffin Newman?

  High frame rate shit, Ben.

• 1:17:15Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 1:17:15David Sims?

  Yes?

• 1:17:16Griffin Newman?

  Uh, uh, who are you wearing?

• 1:17:18David Sims?

  Uh, who am I wearing?

• 1:17:19Griffin Newman?

  I'm doing like an impression of a red carpet correspondent, asking who you're wearing right now.

• 1:17:23David Sims?

  Well, I am wearing Quince.

• 1:17:26Griffin Newman?

  Well, well, well, what a Quince, Quince, Quincy dance.

• 1:17:30David Sims?

  It's a Mongolian cashmere zip sweater.

• 1:17:35Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:17:35David Sims?

  It's a sort of a brown. Would you agree?

• 1:17:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's like, maybe like a, what would you, a chocolate?

• 1:17:40David Sims?

  Sure. I have been seated next to people wearing this item of clothing and they have brushed against me, not to brag, and gone like, so soft.

• 1:17:48Griffin Newman?

  Oh, a soft boy. But listen, the best pieces in your closet are the ones that you can count on whether you're heading to work, going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where I'm shopping for myself and everyone on my list.

• 1:18:04David Sims?

  Quince does rock. It's got high quality staples made with these, uh, premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere.

• 1:18:11Griffin Newman?

  14 karat gold?

• 1:18:14David Sims?

  Italian leather.

• 1:18:16Griffin Newman?

  Mama mia.

• 1:18:16David Sims?

  All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays. These cashmere sweaters, like the one I'm wearing, start at just $60. Lineup doesn't stop there. You've got premium down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories, everything your loved ones need to stay warm and look put together all season long.

• 1:18:36Griffin Newman?

  And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 1:18:49David Sims?

  Um, so yeah, obviously I'm wearing Quince sweater right now. I've got Quince bedding at home. Ooh, they've got Christmas stockings.

• 1:18:56Griffin Newman?

  Oh, well, well, well.

• 1:18:57David Sims?

  They got tree skirts. They got garlands if you want to go Christmas mode.

• 1:19:01Griffin Newman?

  Your tree deserves to be dressed in Quince as well. And when it comes to gifting, Quince has a lot more than clothing. Think fine jewelry, leather bags, the aforementioned hotel quality bedding, chef grade cookware, and five star luggage. Basically, plenty of ways to find something special for everyone on your list. If you want to give the gift of quality this holiday season, download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's a year. Now available in Canada and the UK too. Ding dong. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was blank check. It's the best way to support the show.

• 1:19:46Speaker 04

  So Lucas wanted Trumbull to do Star Wars.

• 1:19:50Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:19:50Speaker 04

  He was like, no, I'm all in on show scan, baby.

• 1:19:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Speaker 04

  Then Spielberg reached out and was like, hey, can you help? And he was like, no, I'm all in on show scan, baby. And then they were like, Spielberg was like, but we're shooting the film, the effects in 65 millimeter, which Trumbull was like, I need 65 millimeter equipment. I'll do your movie if I can keep the 65 millimeter stuff. And Spielberg's like, done. And so he was like, fine, I'll do it. So I can steal that stuff for show scan. Show scan, Ben, is Douglas Trumbull's vision for.

• 1:20:24David Sims?

  We definitely discussed on our funeral for frames.

• 1:20:26Speaker 04

  I'm sure we did.

• 1:20:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, but this is a decade of dreams. So it's time to look back.

• 1:20:29Speaker 04

  Decade of dreams.

• 1:20:30David Sims?

  Just saying, people want to listen to more.

• 1:20:32Speaker 04

  Um, it was his, he had.

• 1:20:36Speaker 04

  Done studies and found that the audience's emotional reaction to film peaked when it was 60 frames a second. And he was like, at 24 frames a second, the audience's subconscious is aware that it's a movie and it distanced itself. And at 60 frames a second, they are most emotionally overwhelmed by cinema. And so he's like cinema needs to be 65 millimeter, like IMAX, a little sort of an IMAX and high frame rate. And this is his thing in the seventies. He is like all in on this. This is like the most important thing.

• 1:21:10David Sims?

  Because it's really what he's saying is like, it should hurt your head to watch a movie. It's not emotions. Cause this is what, you know, Ang Lee or whatever, they're like, yes, yes, yes. And people are watching and they're just like, ah, it's too much.

• 1:21:23Speaker 04

  I just love like throughout the history of cinema, there was these like Hellraiser ass freaks.

• 1:21:29David Sims?

  There's at least one guy every decade.

• 1:21:30Speaker 04

  Unlock the puzzle box of high frame rate. And everyone's like, no, we don't want this. And everyone's like, these people are like, we have to try.

• 1:21:38David Sims?

  It always ends the same way, too.

• 1:21:39Griffin Newman?

  But this is what I love it. It's great. Oh, it's incredible. What's fascinating about it is that like when high frame rate does finally have its moment of experimentation in popular cinema, that is because of the digital conversion, right? Like high frame rate film never becomes a fucking thing. There are like testings that Douglas Trumbull does that are screened like occasionally. You know, there are times it's used in like theme parks or whatever, but it like never works for narrative film, like distribution and exhibition. He spends decades on this. Even when things are starting to go digital, he's like, I've come up with show scan digital. I'm going to be the guy who cracks it. He never ever cracks it. Douglas Trumbull is like the greatest special effects artist

• 1:22:24Griffin Newman?

  in history, maybe, or at least in the conversation. Basically anytime he does something for hire for other people, it is like historic. He wins multiple Oscars. His career spans from like 2001 to the tree of life. He's like deeply like knowledgeable in every single form of how you could possibly approach visual effects. And yet anytime he's like offered a job, it's like, I don't want to be doing this. I have my own shit to work on. And his shit, nobody wants. No one wants his technology. And when he directs his own movies, people die. Like the balance between his career where he's just like, ah, these jobs taking me away from my work and the jobs are 2001 Star Wars Close Encounters.

• 1:23:07Griffin Newman?

  And then his work is always like nonstarter.

• 1:23:11Speaker 04

  It's wild. It's a wild career. Uh, we love Douglas Trumbull.

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  If there was something I should check out of, of his work.

• 1:23:19Speaker 04

  I mean, most famously 2001 Space Odyssey.

• 1:23:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. I mean, it's like of his own work.

• 1:23:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:23:24Griffin Newman?

  None of it.

• 1:23:25Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:23:26Griffin Newman?

  Really? I mean, not to be rude, but it's like, it's experimentations. It's like odds and ends.

• 1:23:31Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, well, he is a, he is a great mind in problem solving and creative ways to do things. And I think his legacy is marked in the things that he helped make amazing. And not necessarily his own, his own works.

• 1:23:46David Sims?

  Um, so, uh, the only thing about production that I want to emphasize that is kind of funny is like, Spielberg's like, this would have been a really tough and hard shoot, except I just made Jaws. So it seemed a lot easier.

• 1:23:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, right.

• 1:23:58David Sims?

  Cause the set didn't move around like on the water, you know, like, it's like, I had already gone through Jaws.

• 1:24:04Speaker 04

  But there's this audacity to Spielberg that I really respect, that I think he holds on to for a lot of his career, which is he's this young filmmaker who is like, no, we're going to build the biggest set that's ever been built. No, no, no, no, we're going to use effects that have never been done before. That is an audacious way to craft a career is to be like, I'm going to jump into the deep end on things that budgetarily and scale wise haven't been done before. And I'm just going to like, assume it'll all work itself out.

• 1:24:34Griffin Newman?

  There's that. And I guess, you know, if it's not a blank check status, it's at least him sort of, I think, operating under the assumption that like, I made Jaws, however poorly this goes, someone will hire me to do something after this, you know, like maybe they never give me this level of freedom again.

• 1:24:51David Sims?

  But let me take this one.

• 1:24:52Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:24:52David Sims?

  Absolutely.

• 1:24:53Speaker 04

  And there's like that, that new Hollywood sort of like, part of it is this sort of like, hey, I'm just going to take this big old swing and I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to do this thing over like, those guys all sort of trying to one up each other in terms of how audacious they can be.

• 1:25:08David Sims?

  Another thing apparently Spielberg would do relatable King is that him and Vilma Jigmond, the cinematographer.

• 1:25:15Griffin Newman?

  This movie's only Oscar or won an honorary?

• 1:25:18David Sims?

  It won a sound effects editing honorary award back before they would like officially have that category.

• 1:25:22Griffin Newman?

  Right, and cinematography is only competitive.

• 1:25:25David Sims?

  Spielberg every night would see like one or two movies a night and like write down more ideas and sketch stuff and stuff and.

• 1:25:32Griffin Newman?

  Interesting. I did notice that the UFOs look like the Letterboxd logo.

• 1:25:36David Sims?

  Um, and.

• 1:25:38Griffin Newman?

  He was doing the original analog Letterboxd.

• 1:25:40David Sims?

  Spielberg is complaining about the schedule or something and again, the old gaffer, Earl Gilbert, like a, you know, old hand was like Spielberg, if you stop watching those fucking movies every night, we'd be on schedule. They shot in Mobile, Alabama, uh, which I guess is, uh, they needed to control the weather and use this giant hangar. They had this giant like security detail and this massive set and these giant, I mean.

• 1:26:08Speaker 04

  There's no space big enough.

• 1:26:09David Sims?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:26:10Speaker 04

  And then they're originally just gonna shoot that stuff in Mobile and then they're like, well, if we're doing all these parts, why don't we just shoot the whole thing here?

• 1:26:18David Sims?

  Um, but then they, uh, do find Devil's Tower Wyoming for the, uh, big location shoot outside that they realized they're like, we should do that on location. Um, so it's weird that they found that late in a way. And then they like build the, you know, sculpturing and stuff around Devil's Tower, like having discovered it as location.

• 1:26:37Speaker 04

  There is, I mean, there's a lot of fascinating aspects to this production, but another one is this, I mean, and I, it still exists to this day, but these movies where people are sort of like making it up while they're in production.

• 1:26:49David Sims?

  Right. Like they didn't know what the mothership was gonna look like and they had a lot of different ideas. And then Spielberg sees this big like refinery in the San Drupan Endo Valley and it's like that, like, you know, big spokes and stuff.

• 1:27:01Speaker 04

  Or the refinery, I think was when they were shooting the stuff in India.

• 1:27:06David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:27:08David Sims?

  Well, I guess, yeah, he saw a refinery.

• 1:27:11Griffin Newman?

  But it's India only.

• 1:27:12David Sims?

  And then he sees the San Fernando Valley and he like, superimposes like, what if we had this structure on this structure? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:19Griffin Newman?

  But like, I mean, the ILM documentary gets into a lot of this, but like, in this era, these guys, these directors would go to Trumbull, where people like Trumbull and go like, here's what I'm thinking. After everyone else had said, that's impossible. I don't understand what you're saying. I don't know how I'd begin to approach that. And Trumbull's a guy who's kind of activated by like, I'm going to pioneer something new here. And, and they're figuring it out in real time. So there's like, the whole process where like, let's hope this works. But no one has a concrete idea of how they're going to get there until it actually happens.

• 1:27:54Speaker 04

  Well, that's a part of this that I think is very interesting is, I mean, we, I, sorry, I don't want to interrupt.

• 1:28:00David Sims?

  No, no, go ahead. No, no, no.

• 1:28:02Speaker 04

  We've talked about how the, the core of this movie feels like it is about the childhood feeling of divorce and loss and confusion and all.

• 1:28:13David Sims?

  Family members acting rationally, you know, like, yeah.

• 1:28:17Speaker 04

  And watching the film now as an adult, right? I have a low opinion of our main characters.

• 1:28:25David Sims?

  Especially Dreyfus.

• 1:28:26Speaker 04

  Especially Dreyfus, but also it's funny, rewatching the scene of, um, the, the, um, abduction, the kidnapping of the child. I have this feeling where I'm like, she kind of gives up. There's like, there's a, there's not really a resiliency there. Like, like she, it's, as a kid, it felt like this scary thing where these aliens were stealing this boy. And then watching it as an adult, you're kind of like, wait, she's kind of letting them, like, it's, it's, the dynamic is different.

• 1:28:57Griffin Newman?

  It's, yes, I agree. It's fascinating also that when she's reunited with her son at the end, I think the first thing she says to him is something like, oh my God, I looked everywhere for you. Do you remember that? Do you, did you see me looking for you?

• 1:29:09Speaker 04

  And so there's this like,

• 1:29:10Griffin Newman?

  She's like needing him to validate, like, I didn't give up.

• 1:29:14Speaker 04

  Did you see mommy running after you? There's this like strange energy of these sort of delinquent or not resilient parents. That is like this theme of the film. And when you watch the movie through that lens, it's sort of like the first. You know, 70% of the movie feels like it is like what a divorce feels like, or what a, a, a family schism feels like from the POV of a child, where it's like adults acting strange, the home becoming an unstable place, yelling, arguing, people doing things I don't understand why. The home is no longer this like clean, safe place. Now it's infected with all of these things and ideas. And obviously, the movie is this buildup to this like, you know,

• 1:29:57Speaker 04

  25 minute super sequence that takes place at the top of Devil's Tower. And that's the showpiece of this whole movie. It all builds up to that and that has to work. But what's so fascinating is that reading about the making of and like the diaries and all of this stuff, as a viewer, that big finale on Devil's Tower, that is the film. That is what makes it, right? If that wasn't there, that whole first part of the movie, it would be not remembered as this great film.

• 1:30:23David Sims?

  Not to diss this movie in comparison to Close Encounters. Close Encounters is tough, but Midnight Special, the Jeff Nichols movie, which is a very Close Encounters-y movie, right? Like, it's also about disparate characters being linked to this weird and, you know.

• 1:30:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I also, I, I rewatched Super 8 last week.

• 1:30:40David Sims?

  Obviously, very Spielbergian.

• 1:30:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes, and I feel like that movie gets compared a lot to E.T. in particular, and, and more of the Amblin Produce films and things like that.

• 1:30:48David Sims?

  It's got the child adventure side.

• 1:30:50Griffin Newman?

  Right, but there's like a lot of Close Encounters in the structure of that movie, even if it's pushing more towards the nakedly child perspective emotional stuff.

• 1:30:58David Sims?

  But like Midnight Special is a movie where the, in my opinion, the ending is not spectacular enough. Or arresting enough or whatever. And that's why you exit kind of being like, I don't know if I'm gonna remember that movie. Like, interesting, uh.

• 1:31:11Griffin Newman?

  Close Encounters absolutely delivers on the finale. You want to leave feeling ecstatic.

• 1:31:17Speaker 04

  But here's what's fascinating. Throughout the production of the film. Spielberg seemed not to have a vision.

• 1:31:24David Sims?

  Right. What will that be?

• 1:31:25Speaker 04

  For that ending.

• 1:31:26David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:31:26Speaker 04

  Like, the joke is throughout the thing, Dreyfus and Balbin and Truffaut are like, what are we looking at? Spielberg's like, I don't know. I have no idea what the aliens look like, what the spaceships look like. There's all these things in the production of it where they change what the alien looks like like four different times, which is why in the final cut, there are like four different types of aliens, because every time Spielberg's like, ah.

• 1:31:47David Sims?

  Which I kind of like.

• 1:31:48Speaker 04

  Which I think is great.

• 1:31:49David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:50Speaker 04

  It's funny because there's a making of documentary where he, I think it's a retcon, this is just my theory, where he's like, well, you know, the, on Earth, we have all different types of races of people. And so I wanted to have the aliens, and I'm like, based on the production diaries.

• 1:32:05Griffin Newman?

  That's a stall.

• 1:32:05Speaker 04

  You kept changing what it was.

• 1:32:07Griffin Newman?

  That's a good justification delay.

• 1:32:09Speaker 04

  But I think it's so fascinating then, that he is so dead set on this film and has such a clear vision for it. Except for the thing that he seems to actually care least about is the aliens, the spaceships, what that all is, how that works, because the core of it to him is.

• 1:32:26David Sims?

  But the thing is.

• 1:32:26Speaker 04

  This human experience.

• 1:32:28David Sims?

  The ending rocks, but the ending is not plot heavy or like, it's, nothing really happens in the ending. That's like, and now everyone's, everything's been totally explained.

• 1:32:39Speaker 04

  Cause I don't think he was.

• 1:32:39David Sims?

  The ending is just like, the aliens are real, here they are, and they had abducted the guys, and good news, they're nice. They seem pretty nice.

• 1:32:47Griffin Newman?

  This movie is better.

• 1:32:47David Sims?

  It's kind of it.

• 1:32:48Griffin Newman?

  For Spielberg not having gone through therapy at this point in his life. Like, everything that's interesting about this movie is him like trying to translate something that he can't even totally justify.

• 1:32:59Speaker 04

  Well, that's, that's my scorching hot take here is that based on everything that I've read and seen of this, I don't think he was compelled, ultimately not compelled by the aliens or any of the stuff. He was compelled by all of the buildup to that. And that was the story that he wanted to tell. And this was kind of like. What he knew as a storyteller, he had to deliver on, but it didn't feel like it actually, that didn't come from his heart and soul, the same way the rest of it felt so specific and natural to him.

• 1:33:24Griffin Newman?

  Well, okay, so the movie, the, you know, the real like incubation point for this as an idea is the meteor shower experience with his father, right?

• 1:33:32David Sims?

  Sure, that's the first.

• 1:33:32Griffin Newman?

  And like capturing something that felt the way that felt to him as a child on screen, which part of that is like, could I make this happen visually? Could I, you know, whatever? So there, it starts there, right? And then he goes through so much wrestling of like, what is the story around this? And then the story he lands on that only he ultimately can like really wrestle into a script is something that then means more to him to the end than the ending. Ben, just to clarify, wishful Ben, Hozley, decade of dreams. That's the nickname we're going for with for this episode. Just to jump ahead, uh, this movie comes out in 1977. It's a huge hit. Columbia Pictures really wants a sequel. He does not want to do it. He plays around with it. He's just like, leave it where it is, right? But he was like, I still have some regrets about the movie.

• 1:34:17Griffin Newman?

  And there's some shit I didn't film that I wish we could have because of schedule and budget. And there's some changes I'd want to make in editing and some things with the characters I dislike now. Would you give me money to do a special edition and you can re-release it? Which was the first time that ever happened.

• 1:34:32David Sims?

  It's the sort of invention of that notion.

• 1:34:33Griffin Newman?

  He created the thing, right? So they give him money. He goes back, does additional shooting like two years later, a year later. I think it comes out in 1980, right?

• 1:34:42David Sims?

  He kind of says like, I really wasn't finished with the movie. It is 1980.

• 1:34:45Griffin Newman?

  Right. And the trade off is we'll give you the money to do this and we'll put it back in theaters and all of that. Allow you to recut it. But part of it is you have to use some of this budget to do more crazy effect shit. We want to go inside the spaceship. And that's like the marching orders from Columbia.

• 1:35:02David Sims?

  Interesting.

• 1:35:03Griffin Newman?

  So then they shoot this new footage that's even crazier effect shit, right? They put that in theaters. It makes a lot more money. It gets good reviews. That's the version circulation for a while.

• 1:35:12David Sims?

  For a long time.

• 1:35:13Griffin Newman?

  Then over time.

• 1:35:14Speaker 03

  I didn't see this version.

• 1:35:14Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:35:15Speaker 03

  I must've just saw the original cut.

• 1:35:16Griffin Newman?

  The main one now is the director's cut. So then over time Spielberg is like, I regret that. I wish we hadn't gone inside the spaceship. It removes some of the mystery for me. And then in the nineties.

• 1:35:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, what does he do in the ship?

• 1:35:28David Sims?

  He just stands there and you just see cool set stuff. It's.

• 1:35:32Griffin Newman?

  I'll pull it up for you.

• 1:35:33David Sims?

  Fine.

• 1:35:33Griffin Newman?

  The effects are incredible.

• 1:35:34David Sims?

  It looks good.

• 1:35:35Griffin Newman?

  It looks amazing.

• 1:35:36Speaker 03

  I've, I've been on the record saying I want to get abducted.

• 1:35:39Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 1:35:40Speaker 03

  Like I'm dying to.

• 1:35:41David Sims?

  But you're not gonna, because you're putting it out there. You know what I mean?

• 1:35:44Speaker 03

  You want it.

• 1:35:44David Sims?

  You gotta play hard to get.

• 1:35:45Speaker 03

  I want it too bad.

• 1:35:46Griffin Newman?

  You want it too bad.

• 1:35:47Speaker 03

  But it is the thing where I'm like, then what happens when you get on the ship? What do you do? Do they serve you lunch? I don't think so.

• 1:35:52David Sims?

  Probably.

• 1:35:53Speaker 03

  I think you're.

• 1:35:53David Sims?

  They might.

• 1:35:55Griffin Newman?

  So Ben, in the 90s, he's like, I'm still not happy with it. Going inside the ship was a mistake. Some of my reshoots were a mistake. There are things I cut out I wish I could put back in. And he gets Sony for an anniversary to let him do his final director's cut. That is a mashup of the two. He resets some things back from the theatrical. He takes out some of the extra stuff, notably the inside of the spaceship. That is the version that mostly exists in circulation now.

• 1:36:23David Sims?

  And he says like, that's as close to a finished version as I.

• 1:36:26Griffin Newman?

  The 4K, I think maybe the Blu-ray has this feature as well. I know the iTunes version has this. If you buy it, they have a feature called a view from above, where you can actually compare the three versions through branching timelines. And it like makes an interactive thing of like explaining to you, this shot's shorter, this here, you can just watch the clips, compare them all, whatever. The point of all of this is, there's this part of Spielberg that was just like, fuck, I didn't, what is, I can't, like for decades after this movie, still being like, what's the thing I didn't quite get at? Right? And a lot of these changes go back and forth of like, I think I didn't make this guy likeable enough. I didn't justify his obsession or the dissolution of the family, or why he leaves, or all this stuff.

• 1:37:10Griffin Newman?

  The big scene he adds in the special edition that is then is carried over, is this fight that he, Terry Gar and Richard Dreyfuss have in the shower, where she comes in, he's like muttering to himself, and she's trying to break through to him and the kids are screaming. Because he was like, it was too abrupt before that he's just building the thing in the home. And she's just like, I'm fucking out of here. And he doesn't chase after them really, you know? He's like freaking out, but he lets it happen and doesn't follow up with them ever again. And he was like, I need this scene where Terry Gar's trying to break through. And he's sort of transparently saying like, I don't know, I don't know what's going on with me. He felt the need to explain to make this guy more likeable. And I'm like, the whole thing that's interesting about this movie is that this guy's annoying. But also that I think.

• 1:37:56Griffin Newman?

  I viewed this film the same way as a child. This is a movie about the anxiety of the family falling apart, right? Being taken away, all of this sort of shit. Now I think this movie is about being a grown up and not knowing how to be a grown up. Like, that is the commonality between these characters. That is the thing that Spielberg is commenting on. And he's talked about that it wasn't until E.T. and his experience working with the kids on E.T. that he was like, huh, I actually think I could maybe be a parent. But up until that point, he was like, I will never have kids. And part of that is, I think he's like, my parents fucked me up.

• 1:38:28David Sims?

  It's the divorce kid thing.

• 1:38:29Griffin Newman?

  I don't want responsibility. I just wanna like-

• 1:38:32David Sims?

  And I don't wanna fuck my kids up, my imaginary kids up.

• 1:38:35Griffin Newman?

  There's that, but the other part of it is, he's like, I wanna be part of the circus. I wanna make movies. I wanna go around. And I don't wanna be tied down to shit, right? Uh, that part of Spielberg is like, really big in this movie. This kind of like sad, lonely kid, who isn't over like what happened to his family when he was young, but also doesn't know how to be a grown up at the present tense. And it's just like, let me just like fucking make stuff. And like go on adventures and just sort of like follow the light and see what happens. That part of it's really interesting to me. And the other thing that kept coming up, I was reading, I don't know if you came upon this in either of the books you read, J.D., but that he talked about when he was trying to find this movie to people, he kept citing When You Wish Upon a Star.

• 1:39:20David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:20Griffin Newman?

  And he was like, I wanna make a movie that is the way that song feels.

• 1:39:25David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:39:25Griffin Newman?

  That he was just like, I'm not literally trying to interpret anything from that, but there is like a feeling of like there's something magical, but something also deeply sad and wistful in that song. And I want the entire movie to have this tone. And in the three cuts, he's like changing how much he directly points at When You Wish Upon a Star. And a theatrical cut, like Nuri is introduced with a music box of Pinocchio, playing the song. And then he's arguing with his kids that we should go see Pinocchio, because Pinocchio is being re-released.

• 1:39:54David Sims?

  It'll be magical.

• 1:39:55Griffin Newman?

  Right. And in that first version, the test screening, the end credits played over When You Wish Upon a Star. And the audience laughed and he was like, ah, turn it back.

• 1:40:04David Sims?

  Too cheesy, too cheesy.

• 1:40:05Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:40:06David Sims?

  It's just funny that AI, the next movie he writes.

• 1:40:08Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 1:40:09David Sims?

  You know.

• 1:40:09Griffin Newman?

  Blue Fairy.

• 1:40:10David Sims?

  Okay.

• 1:40:10Griffin Newman?

  But then the special edition, the footage when he's inside the ship is orchestrated with John Williams' version of When You Wish Upon a Star. Like, there was this thing of him looking back to this, what was clearly like a seismic movie for him as a child, that activated something in him emotionally that he could not quite process and that he's just telling everyone, make a movie the way this song feels. And they're like, the way it feels to you, bro.

• 1:40:36David Sims?

  I hate the mothership sequence.

• 1:40:39Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 1:40:39David Sims?

  I hate it because I really.

• 1:40:41Griffin Newman?

  Wait, the sequence inside the ship?

• 1:40:42David Sims?

  Oh, sorry. Because I really, yeah, what if I was like, I hate the end of this movie.

• 1:40:45Griffin Newman?

  I was like, I was like, that's a wild.

• 1:40:46David Sims?

  Uh, no, him going in because to me it is like, he makes an incredibly selfish decision. It's the kind of, this is kind of an ultimate boomer movie in that way of like the fantasy of like, what if I just fucking did get in the spaceship and left?

• 1:41:01Griffin Newman?

  And what if the military gave me permission?

• 1:41:03David Sims?

  Yeah, and what, right, I get permission. What if it's triumphant that I do this?

• 1:41:06Griffin Newman?

  What if, what if the government says it's good that I go away from my family?

• 1:41:09David Sims?

  Which is.

• 1:41:09Griffin Newman?

  Truffaut saying, I envy you.

• 1:41:11David Sims?

  Exactly, telling about.

• 1:41:12Griffin Newman?

  What if Francois Truffaut gives me permission to leave my family forever?

• 1:41:16David Sims?

  Yeah, like, it's, it's, it's so telling of his mindset at the time. Yeah, exactly. Of like, kind of forgiving a person for doing that or trying to understand why they would do it. Um, and then like just seeing Dreyfus in the ship going like, oh, you know, while you see a bunch of cool shit. I'm like, no, he needs to vanish. And it's like, we just don't know.

• 1:41:35Griffin Newman?

  His line was always, it takes away the mystery.

• 1:41:38David Sims?

  It does. He's right. Good, good eventual realiz- this is the thing with Spielberg. This is the one movie he fucks with a lot. And then when he fucks.

• 1:41:44Griffin Newman?

  The only one.

• 1:41:45David Sims?

  No, E.T., when he fucks with E.T., which is when George Lucas is sitting in the bathroom with his special edition, you know, pills, being like, come on, Steve, do some special editions. And he does the E.T. special edition is like, worst mistake I ever made.

• 1:41:59Griffin Newman?

  But this.

• 1:41:59David Sims?

  Why did I fuck with that movie?

• 1:42:00Griffin Newman?

  The weird scene where E.T. says, my clunky, and then shoots.

• 1:42:06David Sims?

  Like the ET special edition stinks and Spielberg to his credit is like, I never should have done it and I'll never do shit like that again.

• 1:42:12Griffin Newman?

  I agree, but what I'm saying is-

• 1:42:13Speaker 04

  Don't they have like ET like running and stuff and like-

• 1:42:15David Sims?

  Yeah, and like there's an extra sequence with CGI and of course he changes the guns to flashlights and all this shit where it's like, no, don't mess with your movie.

• 1:42:24Griffin Newman?

  But that's like Close Encounters, he kept going back to because he felt unsettled, right? The difference with ET was he was sort of like, I guess this is the thing to do now.

• 1:42:32David Sims?

  Yes, that's what I'm saying. And then- Lucas is like, do it, do it!

• 1:42:35Griffin Newman?

  Right, and then immediately is like, wrong.

• 1:42:36David Sims?

  No.

• 1:42:37Griffin Newman?

  Whereas Close Encounters, I, there is a part of him where he talks about today where he's like-

• 1:42:41David Sims?

  It's unfinished.

• 1:42:42Griffin Newman?

  You know what?

• 1:42:42David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:43Griffin Newman?

  I'm not gonna futz with it anymore. The director's cut is probably the closest I'll ever get, but there are parts of this movie that still irk me.

• 1:42:49David Sims?

  What if you do it, reshoot now with Dreyfus now and Dreyfus gets to just kinda talk about issues?

• 1:42:56Speaker 04

  What if it's a-

• 1:42:56David Sims?

  Five minutes of Dreyfus to the camera.

• 1:42:58Speaker 04

  It's just, it's just a bunch of these aliens sitting in little, a little like alien theater, like sitting in their seats. They're kinda like, you can tell they've been like here for a while and they don't want to and just Dreyfus monologuing to all of them and there's on the ship and he's just been-

• 1:43:12Griffin Newman?

  About world culture.

• 1:43:13Speaker 04

  He's just been going on and on. You can tell all the aliens are comfortable.

• 1:43:16Griffin Newman?

  He's wearing a dress.

• 1:43:17David Sims?

  Right, and then Spielberg is like dragged on stage uncomfortably and Dreyfus is like, the shark didn't work, right?

• 1:43:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:22David Sims?

  I don't know why I'm doing this.

• 1:43:24Griffin Newman?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:43:24Speaker 04

  I don't know why I'm in the spaceship now.

• 1:44:04David Sims?

  Close Encounters of the Third Kind, though. We're talking so much about the big sequences. And I love this movie. I think it's a five star movie.

• 1:44:13Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 1:44:13David Sims?

  It's a great movie.

• 1:44:14Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 1:44:15David Sims?

  But it is one of those movies where when you watch it again, you're like, oh yeah, this scene, right? We're setting up an air of mystery. Oh, and there's another one of these. Oh, and then there's another one where it's like, there's nothing wrong with those scenes. But once you've seen the movie and you know where it's going, you're kind of like, yeah, I get it. The plane is missing. Yeah, you know, okay, you know?

• 1:44:34Speaker 04

  I see. I felt differently. And I had this experience. This is going to be the wildest comparison of movies is that, uh, me and my friend recently rewatched Eight Mile.

• 1:44:46David Sims?

  Okay. A movie I had probably haven't seen in 20 years.

• 1:44:49Griffin Newman?

  Haven't seen since it came out.

• 1:44:50Speaker 04

  Okay. The funny thing about Eight Mile is there's like two or three scenes that you remember. And then there was like 80% of the movie that you're like, oh.

• 1:44:57David Sims?

  Isn't most of the movie just kind of them hanging out like?

• 1:45:00Speaker 04

  Well, it's like.

• 1:45:01David Sims?

  Blasting each other's balls and stuff.

• 1:45:02Speaker 04

  It's a weird, um, local politics kind of like class struggle.

• 1:45:11David Sims?

  In my memory, it's a good movie.

• 1:45:13Speaker 04

  I love movies. I think movies are great. But it's so funny because I had that feeling watching this a little bit where it was like, oh, right. This scene. Oh, I forgot that there's all of this.

• 1:45:23Griffin Newman?

  Eight Mile is kind of like Saturday Night Fever where you're like, oh, it's remembers this iconic thing that was triumphant. We all loved it. We had a great time. There are three scenes and images that get replayed all the time and parodied. And then you're like, all the movie in between, everyone forgets how, what it actually is.

• 1:45:40David Sims?

  It's just like people arguing with each other and shit.

• 1:45:41Speaker 04

  Here's what I'll say though, because I don't, I, my, my opinion is not that Close Encounters is Eight Mile. I actually, all of the scenes that I was like, oh, right. I really like in Close Encounters. I like the buildup. I think the buildup is interesting.

• 1:45:55David Sims?

  I like it too.

• 1:45:56Speaker 04

  And I found myself recognizing in the buildup of Close Encounters, what a wonderful, amazing filmmaker Steven Spielberg is. And he does specific things so well that no one else does at all. And I say, I think a lot of them are on display in Close Encounters in a really amazing way.

• 1:46:16David Sims?

  What are some moments? That are you're thinking of for I like when this spaceship goes.

• 1:46:21Griffin Newman?

  That's a good part.

• 1:46:21David Sims?

  Mention that part.

• 1:46:22Speaker 04

  I've heard of that part.

• 1:46:24Griffin Newman?

  I heard hell.

• 1:46:25Speaker 04

  And that's what I'm thinking of.

• 1:46:26David Sims?

  I like when Truffaut eats a big plate of snails and he doesn't do that. Be funny if he did, though. I'm just trying to think of a French thing for him.

• 1:46:34Speaker 04

  I like when Truffaut and Dreyfus touch fingers and they glow. Okay, so I think here I had some some notes written down that I'll pop open.

• 1:46:44Speaker 04

  There's some very, there's things that I love about Spielberg and the things that are like very Spielberg-y things. So number one is the opening sort of like prologue scenes are very Spielberg and I like them a lot where it's like you're you're learning about the the lore of extraterrestrials.

• 1:47:01David Sims?

  Missing flights and the bombers and in the Bermuda Triangle and stuff.

• 1:47:06Speaker 04

  And it's done in a very Spielberg-y way that it's these tricks that he does over and over again, like he does the thing where it's someone speaking in a foreign language and like they're clearly like worked up about something than like the translator turns and is like, he says that they come from this, you know, whatever.

• 1:47:21David Sims?

  That seems really cool.

• 1:47:23Griffin Newman?

  No selling.

• 1:47:24Speaker 04

  But that's a trick. That's a trick that Spielberg does constantly.

• 1:47:27Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:47:27Speaker 04

  Where it's like someone's explaining something and someone like very dramatically like sums up what they're saying.

• 1:47:32David Sims?

  Not just is it not, not, not only is it a trick he does, it's a trick that people then copy.

• 1:47:37Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:47:37David Sims?

  So much.

• 1:47:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:38David Sims?

  Like over the years.

• 1:47:40Griffin Newman?

  And even just like, I feel like people still try to replicate the feeling of Spielberg family scenes in this era. Where he gets like the chaos of a house full of handfuls and like beleaguered, stressed out parents, like the second you get into the Neary household. And it's just like everyone yelling at the same time.

• 1:47:59David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:00Griffin Newman?

  You know?

• 1:48:00David Sims?

  Which ET is like that too. And I remember as a kid being kind of, again, kind of disturbed by it being a little too real, like because I'm watching these movies because I'm a kid and kids are allowed to watch these movies, right? Because it's like, well, Steven Spielberg. You know, but mostly the movies I watch do not have that sort of, sort of close to realism to, you know, the Disney movies.

• 1:48:19Griffin Newman?

  Can I read something from the sight and sound? When I was talking earlier about this movie, almost at times feeling like sort of verite.

• 1:48:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:48:25Griffin Newman?

  And obviously there is the Spielberg like big. Emotionality, but the moments like Truffaut with the plane out in the desert, you know, like shit like that feels like classically Spielberg, what we see for the rest of his career. And then there are other parts of it in like the human drama of this movie that feel very different. His quote from Sight and Sound, the year this movie came out, the months leading up to its release. This movie is more like the French Connection. As brutally realistic within a dramatic storytelling structure. I think our film does to UFOs what the French Connection said about crime in the streets and narcotics in New York City. It's more of a movie than it is a film, really. It's quite entertaining. It's about people and not events. But it's about people who are innocent until they are ensnared by the event and then have to rise above it.

• 1:49:07David Sims?

  I don't think that's an apt, you know, I don't think, I think he's maybe wrong in a way.

• 1:49:13Griffin Newman?

  Still wasn't quite clear on what the movie was. That's Spielberg.

• 1:49:17David Sims?

  But I also think what Spielberg is trying to do there a little bit probably is trying to be like, this FYI, this is not going to be an adventure movie, like guys, guys, I'm warning you.

• 1:49:27Griffin Newman?

  It's not gonna end with the alien coming out and giving a monologue on humanity's purpose, you know, like.

• 1:49:32David Sims?

  He's just trying, I guess, to be like, no, no, it's more grounded. It's more grounded now. Saying that and then being like, it's like one of the most grounded, you know, like then that's maybe a mistake.

• 1:49:41Griffin Newman?

  But I was watching it and I was like, aside from the key, obviously like incredibly Spielberg-y movements. I was like, what, what is the movie this is reminding me of watching it? And I was like, oh, the answer is it feels at times like an Alan Pacula movie.

• 1:49:54David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:49:55Griffin Newman?

  Like there are elements of it being a sort of like just the facts, process, this is how it played out. Where it does almost feel like this movie is a like dramatic retelling of how things really happened, right? Like this is a ripped from the headlines movie four years after there was a UFO encounter like this.

• 1:50:13David Sims?

  The Spielberg thing is like that he's like, well, no, that, but also that it's like, so what happened? It's like, what happened was the aliens were so nice and we had this moment of transcendent, beautiful communication with them and it was great. Goodbye. Like, you know, it's like, you're like, wait, what?

• 1:50:32Speaker 03

  It's so weird. There's no guns. It's like weird.

• 1:50:35David Sims?

  But it's kind of cool.

• 1:50:37Speaker 03

  No, it's super cool, but it's like, it's like crazy.

• 1:50:40David Sims?

  But to see it.

• 1:50:41Speaker 03

  Yes. I had never seen this movie before.

• 1:50:43Speaker 04

  Did you watch it last night?

• 1:50:44David Sims?

  You've never seen it before. I guess I would have thought maybe just because I know your dad's kind of like a sci fi head or whatever.

• 1:50:50Griffin Newman?

  You love UFOs.

• 1:50:50Speaker 03

  I don't think my parents want to encourage the abduction.

• 1:50:53David Sims?

  To your point, Ben.

• 1:50:54Speaker 04

  Running around in cornfields.

• 1:50:56Griffin Newman?

  A lifelong obsession of being abducted? To your point, Ben, there is a quote in the dossier from Spielberg talking about how miffed he is that he's never had a UFO encounter. And much like you, where he's just like, can you believe I'm the one guy who's never had?

• 1:51:13Speaker 03

  I really deserve it.

• 1:51:14Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. He said, I deserve it.

• 1:51:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:16David Sims?

  You know, he does. He deserves it.

• 1:51:18Griffin Newman?

  Wait, so Ben, what did you think? Yeah.

• 1:51:20Speaker 03

  There's no guns. There's no threat. They're not like planning to like somehow use the technology like to kill people and cause harm. It's like.

• 1:51:30David Sims?

  They just want to play the piano.

• 1:51:31Speaker 03

  No, I know.

• 1:51:32Speaker 04

  How much did you know about it going into watching it?

• 1:51:35Speaker 03

  Not very much at all.

• 1:51:36David Sims?

  But did you know, like the music?

• 1:51:38Speaker 04

  Did you know like the?

• 1:51:40Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:51:40Speaker 04

  Fascinating.

• 1:51:42David Sims?

  I do think this movie has a little less cultural hook, you know, than it did 20 years ago.

• 1:51:48Griffin Newman?

  But it did for, yeah, it did for 25, 30 years.

• 1:51:51Speaker 04

  Hook than hook.

• 1:51:53Griffin Newman?

  Well, certainly.

• 1:51:54David Sims?

  Good point.

• 1:51:55Griffin Newman?

  I'm trying to find.

• 1:51:55David Sims?

  Which is the other movie you wanted to do on this show. We said Spielberg and you said, well, Close Encounters are Hook.

• 1:52:00Griffin Newman?

  You, you got bumped for.

• 1:52:02David Sims?

  Well, you didn't get bumped. You said, you said two movies.

• 1:52:04Griffin Newman?

  Well, you texted us and said, I can't believe I'm being bumped.

• 1:52:07Speaker 04

  I wasn't gonna bring any of this up.

• 1:52:09David Sims?

  No, it's fine.

• 1:52:09Speaker 04

  This is y'all bringing this up.

• 1:52:11David Sims?

  Because Hook is being discussed on episodes before we get to Hook and you're a Hook. You're pro Hook, right?

• 1:52:16Speaker 04

  I'm pro Hook. I, Hook was a, there was a few movies that I watched a lot as a kid.

• 1:52:21David Sims?

  Right. You're, you're, it's, you're the perfect age for Hook.

• 1:52:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. Labyrinth is a movie that I watched like, you know, every week, I would say.

• 1:52:27David Sims?

  I don't see that movie in your current like interests or obsessions at all. That's weird. Yeah.

• 1:52:32Griffin Newman?

  And then Hook was another one that I watched.

• 1:52:35Speaker 04

  A ton of times and I loved and I still have a fondness for and it's, it was only as an adult that I realized that people are like, Hook is a bad movie. And that was like a shocker to me.

• 1:52:44David Sims?

  I mean, I think for you, it's like when we had Emma Stefanski on about Treasure Planet and she was like, I didn't realize this movie was a bomb, right? Like, you know, it's like there's generations where they're just like, oh, I just grew up watching that movie. It was fun. It was great. And then I'm a grown up and people are like, you know, that movie was of disappointment, right?

• 1:52:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so Hook was near and dear to me and it's something that I think is often maligned.

• 1:53:04David Sims?

  But now more beloved.

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  It's, is it?

• 1:53:06David Sims?

  I think so. I think your generation, our generation has dredged it higher.

• 1:53:12Griffin Newman?

  Throwing out the Spielberg spreadsheet to people, possible guest ideas. Like four or five people lined up and were like, blank or Hook. I love Hook.

• 1:53:21David Sims?

  Give me the hook.

• 1:53:22Griffin Newman?

  I'm ready to defend Hook. Maybe partially knowing that Dave and I dislike it.

• 1:53:26David Sims?

  We certainly talked over the years about how we're not as pro Hook. Now, I'm not pro Hook because he's a dread pirate. Okay? And I don't support that kind of behavior.

• 1:53:37Speaker 04

  I'm pro Hook because I think kids need to be kidnapped.

• 1:53:41David Sims?

  Yeah, he's a really, Hook's not a cool dude. He kidnaps children.

• 1:53:45Speaker 04

  He kidnaps children and then like basically becomes their parent. Yeah, I was excited to talk about Hook. I think because you guys, I know canonically you are anti Hook. And so I wanted to defend it.

• 1:53:55David Sims?

  I'm like, like, but.

• 1:53:56Speaker 04

  Also, I have an.

• 1:53:57David Sims?

  I'm anti Hook, but I've seen it 20 times.

• 1:54:00Speaker 04

  Also, I have an obsession with an aspect of Hook that I, my one request was that you would talk about this during the Hook episode.

• 1:54:07Griffin Newman?

  Do you want to put it out to us now to make sure we talk about it in the episode?

• 1:54:11Speaker 04

  Okay, there is a trend in Hook that I'm, if I, if I had to go to grad school, it would be about trying to unearth the sort of like the, this, this trend and where it came from and, and track it and where it's gone now, which is the clubhouse for kids with skate ramps.

• 1:54:29Griffin Newman?

  Great. Yep. We'll talk about this.

• 1:54:30David Sims?

  We'll talk about it for sure. Hot Turtles being another.

• 1:54:33Speaker 04

  Ninja Turtles being one of them, Double Dragon.

• 1:54:36Griffin Newman?

  Paul Krater has one in his layer.

• 1:54:37David Sims?

  Every kid's fantasy, right?

• 1:54:38Speaker 04

  Hackers, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of them. And there was a period of time where they came and then they went away. And I'm fascinated with where they started, where they came from and where they went.

• 1:54:50Griffin Newman?

  We will discuss this. I found a quote I wanted to throw out because it goes back to the like, this movie not setting the aliens up as a conflict at all, right? Like the movie is entirely about the way these human beings process the idea of the existence, the proof coming closer, right? Like the wake of it, the sort of yearning towards it.

• 1:55:12David Sims?

  The aliens don't come out and then say, oh, by the way, here's what we're interested in.

• 1:55:16Griffin Newman?

  Right. There's no explanation.

• 1:55:18David Sims?

  We just know they exist.

• 1:55:18Griffin Newman?

  There's no antagonism. There's never even really a feeling of antagonism. It's just about the idea of can we make that connection? There is a review, I think it was from the time by Charlene Engel. Or no, I'm sorry. This was in a book she wrote called The Films of Steven Spielberg. She said, "Close Encounters suggests that humankind has reached the point where it is ready to enter the community of the cosmos. While it is a computer which makes the final musical conversation with the extraterrestrial guest possible, the characteristics bringing Niri to make his way to Devil's Tower have little to do with technical expertise or computer literacy. These are virtues taught in schools that will be evolved in the 21st century." I think there's this feeling in that movie that speaks to like culturally what was going on in the 1970s,

• 1:56:01Griffin Newman?

  which is just like, reality is getting overwhelming and people kind of almost wanted some sense of divine intervention like that, where it's like, you know what, maybe it would make more sense if suddenly our like, understanding of the universe was expanded with concrete proof. Because we're suddenly getting inundated with too much news and like, you know, everything was just like, all the things that we are now like, fucking drowning in today, were really starting to rear their head at that point in time. And this is people who like, in that sort of way, what was going on in that moment of people who dreamt of like, dropping out of society. It's like, there has to be something more. There has to be a better explanation. And this movie's tension is just, can we like, touch that membrane?

• 1:56:45Griffin Newman?

  Can we just get there?

• 1:56:47Speaker 04

  Piggybacking on that, but then also about the hook versus Close Encounters. To be clear, Close Encounters wasn't like, I don't know, I guess I'll do that. This is a, Close Encounters is a movie that is very near and dear to me. Like I said, it's one of my first adult, my grown up film memories.

• 1:57:07Speaker 04

  Simultaneously, I'm currently working on a project that has very similar themes that has caused me to dive very deep into this world. And a big aspect of my childhood was centered around a fascination with extraterrestrials and aliens and reckoning with those ideas.

• 1:57:27David Sims?

  It was also just a time, the X-Files, and you know, like, it was a time of fascination with that stuff.

• 1:57:32Speaker 04

  And so I think if we're talking about the sort of like symbolism and sort of like cultural semiotics of extraterrestrials and aliens and what those represent, I think there's a really interesting, there's a lot of interesting patterns in the evolution of extraterrestrials throughout art and cinema, especially movies, because movies become this vessel for them. And when you think about alien stories, so much of it is about seeing, hearing, experiencing that, which is like, movies are a perfect place for that. But Close Encounters is a slight pivot in that culturally, from what had been going on before that. But tying back to the whole point of it, and it's, I don't know if you

• 1:58:13Speaker 04

  are like this, Ben, I was obsessed with aliens as a kid. I remember one of my, it was probably fourth or fifth grade, we were assigned that we have to do our first big report paper.

• 1:58:23David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:58:23Speaker 04

  Where we have to do a project on something scientific or whatever. We're like, you have to have a thesis statement and a this, and you have to have sources. And I was like, clearly, I'm gonna do mine about aliens, a real scientific thing of which there's going to be.

• 1:58:39David Sims?

  You're gonna, you're gonna.

• 1:58:39Speaker 04

  I'm gonna research this, and I'm gonna figure it all out.

• 1:58:42David Sims?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:42Speaker 04

  Because as a kid, I was like, why would I, you know?

• 1:58:47David Sims?

  You're not gonna do it about like, gravity?

• 1:58:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:58:49David Sims?

  Boring.

• 1:58:50Speaker 04

  Rebecca over there is doing a thing about the blue whales.

• 1:58:53David Sims?

  Drag her.

• 1:58:54Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:58:54David Sims?

  Sounds kinda cool, actually.

• 1:58:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And Will is doing a thing about, you know, how Canada's government is different than the United States, whatever. And I'm like.

• 1:59:03David Sims?

  That sounds a little dry.

• 1:59:05Speaker 04

  I'm like, these dumb-dums don't realize you could be doing something about aliens here.

• 1:59:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:09Speaker 04

  And I'm gonna get to the truth of it.

• 1:59:10Griffin Newman?

  You're gonna crack the case.

• 1:59:12Speaker 04

  And I remember our, our school library had a little section that was like, maybe like, four books wide about aliens and extraterrestrials. And I remember being very excited to read all of these, because I was a kid that wanted to learn about ghosts and monsters and aliens and magic and all this stuff. And I had this. I would say a repeating experience where I would dive into something and then be sort of disappointed. I remember as a kid being like, I want to learn how to do magic, like how to have magical powers. And then reading books on how magic works. I'm like, these are all like-

• 1:59:43David Sims?

  Mostly just tricking people.

• 1:59:44Speaker 04

  This is like tricking people. And I was like, oh, no, I want to learn how to like-

• 1:59:48David Sims?

  The book is like, here is how to become a wizard.

• 1:59:51Speaker 04

  Yes. Here is the spell that you say that makes the coin disappear. It was like, no, you just put it in your pocket when they're not looking. And I was like-

• 1:59:57David Sims?

  Fucking asshole.

• 1:59:58Speaker 04

  What the? And then, you know, you read these stories about Bigfoot and this and that. And then you're, you sort of, even as a kid, start seeing the sort of, I don't know that this is all lining up.

• 2:00:08David Sims?

  Uh huh. Okay.

• 2:00:09Speaker 04

  And my experience with extraterrestrials doing this report was, and me and my friend Dale, we, we both chose the same topic and we were doing this research together and we were reading all of these now that are very famous.

• 2:00:21David Sims?

  The classic post-war encounters.

• 2:00:23Speaker 04

  The classic ones. Yeah.

• 2:00:24David Sims?

  Abducting stories and all that. Right.

• 2:00:26Speaker 04

  And throughout my life, the more, starting at that moment, I gleaned this and only more now have I sort of come to understand aspects or make my own assumptions about it. But a thing that I noticed even back then was I was like, interesting. A lot of these people who had these experiences also had very deep trauma in their lives.

• 2:00:48David Sims?

  Benny and Barney Hill, right? The most famous abduction story of all time where it's like, they, right? They were an interracial couple, like they'd experienced so much discriminating, right? Like there's all this, right? When you learn about them, you're like, right? This was like an incredibly complicated story.

• 2:01:00Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:01:01David Sims?

  Outside of we got abducted by aliens.

• 2:01:02Speaker 04

  And there's a lot of these-

• 2:01:03Griffin Newman?

  The mysterious skin thing. Yeah.

• 2:01:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. And there's a lot of these stories where you hear these amazing experiences they have with aliens, reductions, and then secondary to that, that you also weaved into those stories is also, oh, this incredible trauma that this person went through in their life. And that, that pattern sort of repeated itself. And so I have this sense that oftentimes extraterrestrials or those experiences end up being ciphers for these sort of traumas that we can't, in the same way that a lot of other worldly things become these projections of these aspects of ourselves or our experiences that we don't know how to reckon with. And so to what you're saying about what's going on culturally at the time, there is something

• 2:01:43Speaker 04

  interesting about the fact that Spielberg makes a film where there is all of this complicated, difficult stuff happening. With families in, you know, in the, the, the, the world of Close Encounters. But the result is it's, oh, it's these benevolent aliens that are just there to be our friends.

• 2:02:05David Sims?

  Right. This is a movie that is scary and foreboding for 75% of its running time. But then the answer in this sort of, people later sort of decry kind of Spielberg-y way is like, no, it's all good.

• 2:02:17Speaker 04

  Which is a, a, a cultural relief.

• 2:02:19David Sims?

  It is.

• 2:02:20Speaker 04

  To be like, all of these scary, foreboding things happening, both in your personal life and globally, are actually part of something that's benevolent and ultimately good.

• 2:02:29Griffin Newman?

  You could cut every visual effect shot out of this movie and it would read as a pretty, I think, thorough and like accurate portrayal of someone having a psychotic break and someone dealing with a fallout of trauma of losing a child. Right? If you remove any proof of the supernatural.

• 2:02:48David Sims?

  It's like a collective hysteria.

• 2:02:49Griffin Newman?

  Their behavior makes sense as that. And like Terry Gar believes him, right? And is like accompanying him to these like, sort of trying to get acknowledgement, you know, in the wake of this event that happened to him. But then what really causes the family to like unravel, isn't that she thinks, it's, it's almost not played as he's getting so obsessed with this thing and she has to leave in revolt. It's like, it's scary that he can't function anymore. It is like living with someone with like a borderline personality.

• 2:03:24David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 2:03:24Griffin Newman?

  And you're just like, their behavior is now inexplicable and extreme. And I don't think he can watch the kid safely.

• 2:03:32David Sims?

  And like, the movie is them, of course, the military is like, yeah, we'll create this cover story of like, people can't come here because there's a toxic leak. But then all, they're all saying like, but there will be people who come because there always are. And again, if it's a movie where there are no aliens, it's a movie about how the military is like, don't go there. It's dangerous. And some people are going to go to the thing because of that, like out of interest, right? Like, no, no, you're hiding something from me. Anyway.

• 2:03:55Griffin Newman?

  But this is like a cultural thing that maybe wasn't depicted in films up until this point. Like this notion of our relationship to you, like.

• 2:04:03David Sims?

  Obviously there have been alien. Movies and Alien Invasion movies and stuff like, yeah, had there really been like

• 2:04:08Griffin Newman?

  What JD's talking about though, like movies about the phenomenon of people saying they've had an experience with UFOs. Like that feels kind of new.

• 2:04:18David Sims?

  I think so. I'm not, I'm, I always wish I could build a sort of, um, you know, a timeline before one of these episodes being like, where had there, cause there's things like Slaughterhouse Five that has like aliens in them, right? Like, and there's a movie of that. Um, but yeah, I don't think there's much.

• 2:04:34Griffin Newman?

  But like, this is the first movie that's basically, let me say, I, it feels to me like this is the first movie that is in conversation with the culture of like folklore of UFO abduction and like encounters and this being a thing that like the fringe press is starting to report on.

• 2:04:53David Sims?

  Well, yeah, it's right. Yeah.

• 2:04:54Speaker 04

  An interesting aspect to it.

• 2:04:56David Sims?

  Stuff. Yes.

• 2:04:56Speaker 04

  That I don't know if that was intentional or not, is that there are aspects to the, um, finale of this that Spielberg intended, or he had wrote of his own ideas of, oh, we'll have this happen and this happen. And maybe the aliens can do this and that. And there's a lot more complicated aspects to the aliens. Like there is a whole section where there is these tiny glowing cubes that went and attached themselves to everyone and then went inside everyone's bloodstream. And the, there was a whole zero gravity thing and different kinds of aliens and all this stuff going on. But ultimately it felt like he ended up, he kept deferring back to whatever there was,

• 2:05:37Speaker 04

  whatever aspects were part of the collective storytelling of actual ET encounters.

• 2:05:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:43Speaker 04

  Or people's, you know, um, believed experiences with those, which I think is actually very interesting because that means that that ties in more, I think with that sort of emotional experience of what aliens represented versus if he had invented his own thing.

• 2:05:58David Sims?

  That's very well said.

• 2:05:58David Sims?

  Then you're getting into lore and you're getting into a specific creation.

• 2:06:01Speaker 04

  And it might not connect. It might not be as everlasting as it is now because that's, it's, it's based on whatever was going on in the cultural zeitgeist.

• 2:06:09David Sims?

  James Lipton, the greatest moment in the history of Inside the Actor's Studio. I mean, you know what I'm talking about, right? Where, where Lipton's talking to Spielberg and he says, like your dad was.

• 2:06:16Speaker 04

  I have the exact.

• 2:06:17David Sims?

  I haven't. I haven't.

• 2:06:18Speaker 04

  Okay. Well.

• 2:06:18David Sims?

  Your father was a computer scientist. Your mother was a musician. When the spaceship lands, how do they communicate? And Spielberg, I mean, you gotta watch it really to watch it dawn on Spielberg.

• 2:06:27Speaker 04

  It's incredible.

• 2:06:28David Sims?

  Like, I can't replicate him realizing something he's always known is like, I'm melding my parents, right?

• 2:06:34Griffin Newman?

  But he literally says, like, I've never thought about that before.

• 2:06:37David Sims?

  Thank you for that.

• 2:06:38Griffin Newman?

  Thank you.

• 2:06:38David Sims?

  Like, it's a great moment.

• 2:06:39Griffin Newman?

  But it's, it's this being the unresolved man movie, right? It's why it's always gonna sit weirdly with him, because this is the movie that comes out of him not having figured out all this shit in his life. Like, he's like, speaking things that are so unsettled in his mind and in his heart. I also, you know, how much of this is, once again, like, sort of Spielberg myth-making? But he says, I think, especially when it was the, the earlier versions, the like, sort of Project Blue Book-y versions of the script, and he was reaching out to the government and trying to get, like, you know, I wanna make this accurate, like, what is your own, what is the government's sort of protocol for dealing with these types of claims and things like that? And they kept on being like, don't make this movie.

• 2:07:21Griffin Newman?

  And like, NASA wrote him letters, and they were like, if you make this, we think it will have, like, a damaging effect on the public. And he was like, that was the thing that made me feel like I was on to something good, and made me double down twice as hard as, like, I have to make this. I don't read the implication of that being, hey, Steven, you're getting too close to the truth.

• 2:07:39David Sims?

  No, it's like, we don't want kids Naruto running at, uh, Area 51.

• 2:07:42Griffin Newman?

  That's the thing.

• 2:07:42David Sims?

  It'll be a hassle.

• 2:07:43Griffin Newman?

  Right. Making the movie in this sense feels like it's validating to people who want to believe.

• 2:07:50David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:07:50Griffin Newman?

  More than it's revealing a truth. It's like, this movie is sort of saying, like, maybe if you, like, feel it, if, if the mashed potatoes are, like, telling you, go out to the desert and see what happens.

• 2:08:01Speaker 04

  But then what I think is good is that he ended up not piling, I mean, this is silly to say, because of this whole special effects finale and all this stuff, but to me, there's not enough artifice piled onto it to snuff out the, what I think lasts about this film, which is those very human, very relatable, sort of traumas and experiences that the story is actually telling. The fact that we don't have answers to any of these things, the fact that they're, the aliens don't really communicate, the fact that we don't get answers to those questions, I think makes this film work really, really well.

• 2:08:34David Sims?

  They don't show up and say, hi, here's why we took all those people, we're so sorry. They just show up and say, we are here, and we... Hear you and respond in kind. Like, that's pretty much it. And come with us.

• 2:08:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:08:47David Sims?

  You know.

• 2:08:47Griffin Newman?

  But they also literally say none of that.

• 2:08:49David Sims?

  They don't say words.

• 2:08:51Griffin Newman?

  It is what is so profound is like you have this, I mean, to jump all the way to the end, but like.

• 2:08:55David Sims?

  All the way to the end. It's the whole.

• 2:08:57Griffin Newman?

  Hey, we're gonna go through some of the film scene by scene, but you have.

• 2:09:00David Sims?

  Okay.

• 2:09:00Griffin Newman?

  The ramp come down and the first reveal of the alien is like this bizarre spider like, like it looks like a marionette. It's moving very strangely and then it like kind of slowly unfurls itself and looks like the most classical like.

• 2:09:14Speaker 04

  Gray.

• 2:09:14Griffin Newman?

  Gray saucerite alien.

• 2:09:16David Sims?

  Rambaldi creation, right? Like he was involved.

• 2:09:18Speaker 04

  Yes, and they also hired Bob Baker to help try to figure this out.

• 2:09:21David Sims?

  Um, but not Bob Barker.

• 2:09:23Griffin Newman?

  No, Bob Baker, the famous marionette.

• 2:09:25Speaker 04

  Bob Baker Marionette Theater in Eastern Los Angeles.

• 2:09:28Griffin Newman?

  David doesn't know from Bob Baker Marionette Theater. No, this is important.

• 2:09:32Speaker 04

  David.

• 2:09:33Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 2:09:33David Sims?

  I'm going to the bathroom.

• 2:09:34Griffin Newman?

  No, you're not.

• 2:09:36Speaker 04

  You're gonna stay here and learn who Bob Baker is.

• 2:09:38Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 2:09:41Griffin Newman?

  This is unbelievable. Every fucking time he does it. And he's acting like this is some shit we do to him. Or are you guys doing this thing where you team up?

• 2:09:50Speaker 04

  And we act like, no, David.

• 2:09:52Griffin Newman?

  These are important artists.

• 2:09:54Speaker 04

  David, if the, if the Atlantic.

• 2:09:56Griffin Newman?

  If the Atlantic.

• 2:09:56Speaker 04

  If the Atlantic.

• 2:09:57Griffin Newman?

  If the Atlantic.

• 2:09:58Speaker 04

  It's not, it's not of, of the ilk enough to respect Bob Baker.

• 2:10:04Griffin Newman?

  Disregard entire art forms? You're disregarding entire methods?

• 2:10:08David Sims?

  Who's Bob Baker? I'll bite.

• 2:10:09Griffin Newman?

  What a good question.

• 2:10:10Speaker 04

  He's a puppeteer guy who did a lot of marionettes.

• 2:10:13Griffin Newman?

  Did like cool puppet shit.

• 2:10:14Speaker 04

  And he did a lot of cool puppet shit for movies and TV show. And then eventually opened up a little theater in Los Angeles where you can go see marionette shows all the time.

• 2:10:23David Sims?

  Like, uh, and kinda in Highland Park?

• 2:10:25Speaker 04

  Yes, in Highland Park.

• 2:10:26Griffin Newman?

  Theater was in.

• 2:10:27David Sims?

  A friend of mine who I stay with when I'm in LA lives very close by.

• 2:10:31Griffin Newman?

  Theater was at risk of closing and there was a big fundraising effort. Now it's had this like incredible second life and all the shows sell out.

• 2:10:37Speaker 04

  And it's.

• 2:10:37Griffin Newman?

  A lot of celebrities who like sort of support it financially and it feels pretty sad. And it's like this beautiful, like here we study and refine this one very particular ancient art form.

• 2:10:50Speaker 04

  I resent the toilet noises happen in the background.

• 2:10:52Griffin Newman?

  That's the worst thing.

• 2:10:54Speaker 04

  We're talking about the beautiful career of Bob Baker.

• 2:10:58Griffin Newman?

  Bob Baker.

• 2:10:59Speaker 04

  And as Griffin, as Griffin was, the jazz was hitting in the, like, poetry, the, it was off his tongue as he's getting into the, the, the life and the career of Bob Baker. We hear the toilet flush in the background.

• 2:11:12Griffin Newman?

  Flush, some stinky dookie going down the pipe.

• 2:11:15David Sims?

  There's no stinky dookie.

• 2:11:16Griffin Newman?

  And then that's the smelliest pee I've ever come across.

• 2:11:19Speaker 04

  Okay, now Griffin's taking this to a weird place.

• 2:11:21Griffin Newman?

  I'm sorry.

• 2:11:22Speaker 04

  Bob Baker, but anyways, it's a great little marionette theater that they have these shows that are, it feel like you're being time traveled back to, you know, the 1960s.

• 2:11:31Griffin Newman?

  But that makes sense, because it does feel like when he first comes out, it looks puppeteered like a marionette. Then he unfurls into this sort of like animatronic state. Then you have these small children, you know, in these costumes fixed, just clearly, just kind of like waddling out with these heads, right? And then you go back to the main alien and he has like one non-verbal sort of like hand signal.

• 2:11:55David Sims?

  He's doing the music.

• 2:11:57Griffin Newman?

  Smile exchange, of course.

• 2:11:58David Sims?

  Do, do, do.

• 2:11:59Griffin Newman?

  But I'm saying, like, there's no dialogue, there's no monologue. It is all just like these two species, like, observing and acknowledging each other. And you're still like, I don't really understand the relationship between this one tall one and the munchkin ones. You know, I, I have no idea what their intent are. They're returning some people to us, they're taking some new people aboard. Everyone's just kind of like nodding and like, then ramp goes up into the sky, movie over.

• 2:12:26David Sims?

  Well, the kid says bye.

• 2:12:27Griffin Newman?

  The kid says bye.

• 2:12:28David Sims?

  And also, the one thing that I might not do if I'm a spoiler, is that the tall alien kind of smiles, which you love, but you're almost like, I don't think I need him to smile. I already get that it's benevolent.

• 2:12:37Griffin Newman?

  I'm so impressed by the effect.

• 2:12:38David Sims?

  It's a cool effect.

• 2:12:39Speaker 04

  It's a cool effect.

• 2:12:39David Sims?

  But it is kind of like, yep, get that they're, you know.

• 2:12:42Speaker 04

  Among those aliens, uh, kind of like dogs, smiling is actually really aggressive. That, that's an aggressive facial.

• 2:12:49David Sims?

  So you think it's like a Mars attacks thing where it's like, that's actually them communicating, like, we're about to nuke you. We're gonna take up from space and obliterate this fucking planet.

• 2:12:57Speaker 04

  When those aliens show their teeth, it's a sign of aggression.

• 2:12:59David Sims?

  What are some other scenes we haven't touched on? Because obviously Close Encounters, I feel like everyone is like mashed potatoes, abduction of the child, the ending. Those are the big three remembered scenes.

• 2:13:11Speaker 03

  Him building the devil's tower.

• 2:13:14David Sims?

  Yeah, the mashed potatoes.

• 2:13:15Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:13:15David Sims?

  Oh, and also the clay sculpture.

• 2:13:17Speaker 03

  That, that whole.

• 2:13:18David Sims?

  It's freaky.

• 2:13:19Speaker 03

  The pillows.

• 2:13:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I will say that, that the early scene of the, that we're talking about with the foreign language and it's like, what'd he say? He said.

• 2:13:26David Sims?

  That seems really provocative.

• 2:13:27Speaker 04

  Came out and it spoke to.

• 2:13:28David Sims?

  The sun came out at night and sang to him.

• 2:13:31Griffin Newman?

  I have a, I have a very distinct memory of us going the 40th screening and after he has the like sunburn on half of his face from the ship, you going, really good Halloween costume idea.

• 2:13:43Speaker 04

  It is.

• 2:13:43David Sims?

  But no one remembered anymore.

• 2:13:45Griffin Newman?

  Red shirt, half burned face.

• 2:13:47Speaker 04

  Um, I'll also say Spielberg is, I think, one of the best directors at showing people listening. So one of, one of the great.

• 2:13:56David Sims?

  Watching but also listening.

• 2:13:57Speaker 04

  Oh. Uh, at FAMU, a film school in Prague, there is a professor that I, that was where I did my study abroad. Um, Mark Jika, a cinematographer, cinematography professor, who gave me a very harsh note because the script that I was working on had a moment where, uh, you see a character have a, a feeling or an idea. And he was like, never show someone have an idea. Only show the actions that are a result of the idea. And I was like eviscerated in front of the class for that. And it was funny because I was watching Close Encounters and I'm like Spielberg's always showing people have that.

• 2:14:33David Sims?

  It's also one of the things he's best at. I don't understand film school. Not that I think it's like stupid. I just have never been, because I don't understand people being like, you cannot do that. I'm like, there's always an example of someone doing whatever, breaking whatever rule, right?

• 2:14:46Speaker 04

  Well, FAMU was fascinating because this sort of the, the Czech cinema universe, they had a lot of rules that, because for them. What was taught to us was that cinema was a, a, a, both a political and a social tool that as artists you had to use responsibly. And because of that, here's the, here's the ways that you do it.

• 2:15:07David Sims?

  I mean, I love-

• 2:15:08Speaker 04

  Which was a completely different-

• 2:15:09David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:15:09Speaker 04

  Cause NYU was like, well, you know, do it, you know, be an artist and going to FOMO. And they were like, no, this is what films are about. This is how you do them. This is how you shoot them. Um, it was very fascinating.

• 2:15:20David Sims?

  It's a good, right. It's a good other perspective.

• 2:15:22Griffin Newman?

  But that like, I mean, the, the main three adult characters in this film, right? Like the three main threads that converge by the end are Truffaut, Melinda Dillon and Richard Dreyfuss. One of those three-

• 2:15:34David Sims?

  Three amazing performances.

• 2:15:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes. And I want to talk about Melinda Dillon a bit in particular, but, um, Truffaut doesn't speak English, right? Has like five lines where he may be like, cobbles together some English. That is in the dramatic setup of the movie, a performance that is mostly going to be about listening. It's mostly going to be, he's going to blather things in an excitable tone in French without subtitles, have a very calm man just kind of like flatly relay them. And most of this performance is going to play out on watching his face process them and react to it.

• 2:16:08David Sims?

  He's so good.

• 2:16:09Griffin Newman?

  But this is my point. It's like Spielberg's like just showing off at how good he is at doing this.

• 2:16:15Speaker 04

  Truffaut was writing a, a book about acting, he claimed. And that's why he took the part is that he could, he could explain the experience of being an actor.

• 2:16:25Griffin Newman?

  There was also an abandoned film. He wrote The Man Who Loved Women while he was filming this.

• 2:16:31David Sims?

  That makes sense. Cause it comes out around the same-

• 2:16:32Griffin Newman?

  Another movie that he never ended up making that I want to say was about acting.

• 2:16:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:16:38Griffin Newman?

  Maybe some of which ends up going into the soup in Last Metro.

• 2:16:41Speaker 04

  But it's funny, cause in all these interviews, people are like, I think he just wanted to do it, but he had to like come up with an excuse for like why he was doing it.

• 2:16:45David Sims?

  A little bit of that. Yeah. But I think this movie was well liked in France, partly because Truffaut was involved, partly because France was like early on Spielberg in a way. Like, and like Jean Renoir was like, he's, I think he is very talented, you know?

• 2:17:00Speaker 04

  That is-

• 2:17:00Griffin Newman?

  Jean Renoir was like-

• 2:17:01Speaker 04

  Is that what they would say?

• 2:17:02David Sims?

  Yes, he's very good.

• 2:17:03Griffin Newman?

  He's like- The best of his kind since Millier.

• 2:17:06David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 2:17:06Griffin Newman?

  He was like ecstatic.

• 2:17:08David Sims?

  And then eventually, of course, whatever. I'm sure France got sick of Spielberg, but now they're probably back in on him.

• 2:17:12Griffin Newman?

  Exactly. No, that's the thing. Like now they're back in. Fucking, single-handedly, only in their countries, made Fableman's and drew number two blockbusters. And it's like, our most beloved American auteurs are being like vaguely disregarded by the studios and audiences in France. They're like, we'll take them. And Jerry Lewis, of course, he's the third one.

• 2:17:32Speaker 04

  I also love that this movie, the, the beginning part of it is this parallel cutting between these sort of like disconnected UFO experiences and the family drama, because it builds this tension where you're like, I know these things are going to collide and resolve together.

• 2:17:47David Sims?

  Whatever happened before will happen again. Sure, yeah.

• 2:17:50Speaker 04

  Right now, we're in India, and now we're in Mobile, Alabama. And now we're in the military base and we're in Mobile, and you're like, something's about to happen.

• 2:17:59David Sims?

  The movie is set in Indiana. It's set in Muncie.

• 2:18:01Speaker 04

  Oh, sorry. Yes, it's set in Muncie, Indiana. Sorry about that.

• 2:18:03David Sims?

  They shot in Muncie.

• 2:18:04Griffin Newman?

  Um, go Muncie.

• 2:18:05Speaker 04

  Uh, Spielberg, um, works out a lot of stuff that he ends up doing in Poltergeist. A lot of toys going crazy.

• 2:18:11Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:18:12Speaker 04

  A lot of houses.

• 2:18:14Griffin Newman?

  All those simple effects.

• 2:18:15Speaker 04

  Being weird suburbs. He knows how to do that.

• 2:18:17Griffin Newman?

  Line of mailboxes, Wild and Out, where you're just like, this is so simple and so effective. Shit like that of just like the, the cupboards clacking. Like, there's the great sort of first Melinda Dillon and Sons sequence. We're re-watching it. I'm like, does the kid get abducted this early on? And you're like, no, there's a fake out one. And it goes on really long.

• 2:18:37Speaker 04

  When he runs out into the field.

• 2:18:38David Sims?

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:40Griffin Newman?

  But all, all the stuff that's happening around the house, or even just the timing of the lights going out, like, he's so good at making a scene feel really organic and lived in, not staged, not expository, even if like info dumps are happening. And then when something that's just like a little bit supernatural happens, especially when it's like a very unflashy practical effect, it feels so profound in the middle of that.

• 2:19:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. I've got a big bone to pick with the film.

• 2:19:08David Sims?

  What's that? Not enough bones?

• 2:19:10Speaker 04

  There's not enough bones, but also there's a scene where, um, Dreyfus's son complains that he doesn't understand how fractions work.

• 2:19:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:19Speaker 04

  And Dreyfus has this toy train set.

• 2:19:21Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:19:21Speaker 04

  And the son has to do like, I think it's, um, two-thirds of 60 is what he needs to learn the fraction of. The toy train comes around and Dreyfus picks it up and it's three cars. He picks up the three cars and then puts two of them down and goes, imagine this car is 60 feet long, how much the car would have to be.

• 2:19:44David Sims?

  You're saying he had the perfect example.

• 2:19:46Speaker 04

  He had the perfect example.

• 2:19:48David Sims?

  Well, he's not that good a dad.

• 2:19:49Speaker 04

  No, in his hand. And then instead makes it way more complicated.

• 2:19:54Griffin Newman?

  This goes back to my, the movie's about, I don't know how to be a grown up. Like the movie is not from this perspective of the kid. E T's the one where like, for how much the abduction is so iconic.

• 2:20:03David Sims?

  Dreyfus is only like 29 when he's making this movie. Again, he always reads older, like because he's got an old fucker face, but like, yeah, like his kids are pretty old for him to be like not even 30.

• 2:20:15Speaker 04

  How did he respond with that?

• 2:20:17David Sims?

  How would Richard Dreyfus respond to me saying that?

• 2:20:19Speaker 04

  In that one-on-one interview you did with him?

• 2:20:22Griffin Newman?

  No, but it makes sense that he was like leaning towards fucking Hackman or whoever, you know, that like the other guys he was considering were all.

• 2:20:29David Sims?

  Or Hoffman, like, yeah, or ornery, older.

• 2:20:32Griffin Newman?

  But it works that he's like an old child, right? Like it works, the weirdness of Dreyfus being like a young dude who has old man energy and doesn't seem settled in either. And just from that first scene, his response to his son is like, these are your problems. You solve your problems. I don't want to solve your problems. Like he, he just seems so unhappy in all aspects of his life.

• 2:20:53David Sims?

  Hoffman is 10 years older, by the way. 10 years older. Um, that's how quote unquote young Dreyfus is in a weird way.

• 2:21:00Speaker 04

  The argument about goofy golf versus going to the movies? What would you guys have chosen? When you were a kid?

• 2:21:09David Sims?

  Goofy golf. When I was a kid, I did enjoy a mini golf type thing, but I probably preferred going to the movies. Um. Ben, Ben's thinking about it.

• 2:21:18Speaker 03

  What's goofy?

• 2:21:20Griffin Newman?

  How goofy we get.

• 2:21:21David Sims?

  Warning, it probably won't be as goofy as you want.

• 2:21:25Speaker 04

  What you're imagining, it's not that.

• 2:21:26David Sims?

  Like goofy means like there's a windmill.

• 2:21:28Griffin Newman?

  It's not gonna be like goofy jail with the zigzag bars. Melinda Dillon.

• 2:21:34David Sims?

  Why do I feel like we talked about her?

• 2:21:36Griffin Newman?

  We talked, there was a recent movie.

• 2:21:38David Sims?

  What was it though? Cause I'm looking at her filmography.

• 2:21:40Griffin Newman?

  In the last year that we covered, I'm gonna figure out what it is. But um, I feel like she's, she passed away recently. I feel like she's weirdly a kind of overlooked actress for this era. Despite the fact that if you just reduce her to her top ballot work, you're like, she is in a handful of movies that are evergreen.

• 2:22:00David Sims?

  She's in great movies, some. She didn't make enough.

• 2:22:03Griffin Newman?

  She didn't make a ton of movies. Prince of Tides.

• 2:22:06David Sims?

  Oh, that's what it is. That's right. And she's good in that. I mean, obviously. She's amazing in Bound for Glory in this like, and then like I slapshot, she rocks in Close Encounters, I think, you know.

• 2:22:19Griffin Newman?

  Christmas Story is one of the most watched movies of all time.

• 2:22:22David Sims?

  But that's the, that's the thing. I've never seen it.

• 2:22:24Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure.

• 2:22:25David Sims?

  That's the one where I always forget about Christmas Story because I've never seen it, but I know it's a big movie for lots of people.

• 2:22:30Griffin Newman?

  She got an Oscar nomination for this, right?

• 2:22:32David Sims?

  And for Absence of Malice.

• 2:22:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Christmas Story is the most like, one of the most replayed, rewatched.

• 2:22:38Speaker 04

  I completely disconnected.

• 2:22:40David Sims?

  She's one of the Hendersons, right? She's a mom Henderson.

• 2:22:43Griffin Newman?

  Yes. John Lithgow's wife. But I'm just like, if you just reduce her to.

• 2:22:47David Sims?

  Oh my gosh.

• 2:22:48Griffin Newman?

  Slapshot, Close Encounters, Magnolia.

• 2:22:51David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:22:52Griffin Newman?

  Christmas Story. Right? You're like, those are like, and even Harry and the Hendersons, like one step below that. You're like, those are four of the like most rewatched movies.

• 2:23:02David Sims?

  Yeah, she's in big movies, but she obviously in supporting roles.

• 2:23:06Griffin Newman?

  But pivotal supporting roles in all four.

• 2:23:08David Sims?

  I'm pro Melinda Dillon. I'm just saying, there's a reason she's undersung maybe, I guess.

• 2:23:12Griffin Newman?

  But it's maybe the exact effect of you never putting together, that's the same person.

• 2:23:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, right.

• 2:23:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:16David Sims?

  She's so good in that.

• 2:23:17Speaker 04

  Fascinating. I didn't piece that together.

• 2:23:19David Sims?

  Have you seen Slapshot Grove?

• 2:23:21Griffin Newman?

  Yes, Slapshot Grove.

• 2:23:22David Sims?

  So good.

• 2:23:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:25David Sims?

  Melinda Dillon, yeah, but she's amazing in this. I mean, she lost the Oscar to, it's Vanessa Redgrave. I think this is the famous where Vanessa Redgrave maybe didn't accept and

• 2:23:36Griffin Newman?

  No, except if she said incendiary.

• 2:23:38David Sims?

  Palestine, right? Is that, yeah.

• 2:23:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, incendiary. Her statements were

• 2:23:42David Sims?

  It was incendiary at the time.

• 2:23:43Griffin Newman?

  As incendiary at the time.

• 2:23:44David Sims?

  And unfortunately, probably would be considered incendiary.

• 2:23:46Griffin Newman?

  Unfortunately.

• 2:23:47David Sims?

  But, uh, you know, um, that's one of those things where you're like, oh, who, oh, Julia. Well, I haven't seen that, so I can't really weigh in. Uh, I still haven't seen Julia. Maybe I need to watch Julia, just to have a better perspective on the 1977 Oscars.

• 2:24:02Griffin Newman?

  I feel like the, the big picture in their 77 draft, it sounded like both of them watched it for the first time and kind of a little

• 2:24:09David Sims?

  War drama.

• 2:24:10Griffin Newman?

  Flummoxed by it.

• 2:24:11David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:24:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, but one of those movies that just, like, you look at the Oscar year and you're like, I guess this was a juggernaut.

• 2:24:17David Sims?

  I mean, it won those two Oscars and it got a bunch of other noms. It won best screenplay as well, best adapted screenplay. I don't know. I mean, but it's, you know, it's the Oscars of where it's like, yeah, there was, there was acknowledgement of new stuff and excitement. But also I'm sure there were lots of ordinary old voters who liked, uh, you know, sturdy, true story movie about this.

• 2:24:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:39David Sims?

  World War II.

• 2:24:40Griffin Newman?

  I don't know. I just like, think this was him trying to make something more serious and consciously like, or if nothing else, make something certainly deeply personal. Right? And like all of his kind of, um, lamp shading of, lamp shading is the right word, but, uh, the pre-framing of like, I'm not making Jaws again. This isn't a blockbuster. This is something spiritual. This is about ideas and feelings and whatever. I look at it now from the modern perspective and I'm like, I can't believe they weren't doing fucking cartwheels and like tripping over themselves to give him the Oscar for this. But there was this feeling of like fucking whiz kid Spielberg, slow your roll. Like, we're not going to give you everything.

• 2:25:20David Sims?

  Who hosted? Those Oscars.

• 2:25:21Griffin Newman?

  Bob Hope? Yeah.

• 2:25:22David Sims?

  You know, so it's like, you've still got plenty of old fashions.

• 2:25:26Griffin Newman?

  This just feels like such a perfect mashup of like, everything new Hollywood was exploring and a kind of like, old fashioned movie wonder.

• 2:25:34David Sims?

  Frank Capra-esque. That's Spielberg for you.

• 2:25:36Griffin Newman?

  But I'm like, if he gets, as much as this movie was a wild success, huge reviews, huge box office, if he had won the Oscar for this, the rest of his career probably would have been less interesting.

• 2:25:47David Sims?

  That might be true.

• 2:25:48Griffin Newman?

  There's something kind of interesting about him after this, needing to like, sharpen his blade as just like, a commercial entertainer. Then he goes through his weird period of like, how do I make grown up movies? And then he finally figures out how to bring the two together.

• 2:26:02David Sims?

  It's a BFG.

• 2:26:03Griffin Newman?

  Finally, we got there. But there's like, the interesting 1977 to 2001 space, where it feels like he's not trying to make something this overtly, I want to say, personal, but in a certain way, it feels like revealing again. You know, like, E.T., he's like, hey, I'm hiring someone to write the script. I'm adding in a lot of elements that aren't about me. I'm trying to tell a story.

• 2:26:32David Sims?

  I would say E.T.'s pretty revealing. We'll talk about E.T.

• 2:26:35Griffin Newman?

  Oh, we'll talk about it.

• 2:26:36David Sims?

  Actually, we're gonna skip that one.

• 2:26:38Speaker 04

  Pronounced "et."

• 2:26:40Griffin Newman?

  The thing you said, your first comment when you saw The Fableman's, and I asked you how it was, and you said, it's like watching your dad cry. AI, Close Encounters, and Fableman's all have that feeling to me, where it's just like, there's something a little bit uncomfortable here about what he's saying to me. This feels like a little too intimate, rather than personal. That I think is a unique power to this one, that he then maybe avoids a little bit for the next, for the following two decades.

• 2:27:07Speaker 04

  I feel like for Close Encounters, it's almost like, I don't know that, what it comes off as, is that I don't know that he realizes how revealing that is.

• 2:27:17Griffin Newman?

  Exactly. That's what's uncomfortable about it.

• 2:27:19David Sims?

  Maybe at the time he doesn't. I think he does.

• 2:27:20Speaker 04

  Yes, I'm sure he does.

• 2:27:22Griffin Newman?

  That's the intimacy for me. Whereas E.T., it's like, it's perfectly packaged, and the other thing is, the part of him that's like, oh, fuck, I never quite cracked that Neary character, his motivation doesn't make sense to me, he's a bad father, I can't get over this. By the time he gets to E.T., it's like, I know how to characterize everyone. Everyone's arcs are clean and digestible.

• 2:27:42David Sims?

  It's from the point of view of children, and this movie is not from the point of view of children.

• 2:27:47Speaker 04

  Although, a part of me...

• 2:27:51Speaker 04

  Feels like, I was just talking with a mutual friend Connor Ratliff about this. Weirdly, I think Close Encounters kind of is from the POV of children. Like, I almost feel like all of the family stuff feels more from the POV of a child.

• 2:28:07Speaker 03

  Especially.

• 2:28:07Speaker 04

  And then it almost, it almost comes off as how a child would view and understand divorce. And then like, when they drive away is when the fantasy begins of like, oh, and then like, dad's gone because like, there's like this.

• 2:28:23Speaker 03

  He had to go.

• 2:28:24Speaker 04

  He had to go because there's this like really important benevolent thing that he's doing. That's what, that's what's going on.

• 2:28:30Griffin Newman?

  Kiss the lady who is like stirred by the same demons that stir him, you know? It's sort of, that's a really heartbreaking moment in the movie is when he comes home and he's like trying to scrub the burn off. And he's like, Tara, you have to come with me right now. And she's like, what? I'm, I'm in my sleeping gown. And he's like, you're always saying we don't go enough places. Come on, go. And it like gets her in the truck, brings her to the site where Robert's blossom is, right? And.

• 2:28:54Speaker 03

  Her and the kids.

• 2:28:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:28:56Speaker 03

  They don't leave the kids.

• 2:28:57Griffin Newman?

  Right. And she's trying to provoke him with the like, remember when we used to do spontaneous things like this? Like you take me to a spot like this and you'd kiss me? And she just in real time has to work through like, oh.

• 2:29:09Speaker 03

  That's how they got into this mess in the first place.

• 2:29:11Griffin Newman?

  He's gone, right? Like the feeling of there used to be passion in this relationship. Now they're kind of just like worn down. She briefly thinks he's trying to reignite that. And then she's like, oh, he's even further away than I thought he was before.

• 2:29:25Speaker 03

  It's his new obsession.

• 2:29:26Griffin Newman?

  Yes. And from that moment, it almost feels like she's a little bit, not resigned, but that she's like, I've fucking lost him. Things haven't been good and now they've become untenable.

• 2:29:37Speaker 03

  Can we talk about the fucking ships? I want to speak.

• 2:29:40Speaker 04

  I want to talk about the ships. These ships are fucking great.

• 2:29:43Speaker 03

  Three little ass ships.

• 2:29:45Speaker 04

  And then the baby one?

• 2:29:46Speaker 03

  The baby one's the best one.

• 2:29:49David Sims?

  Truly, they look fun.

• 2:29:50Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:51David Sims?

  They look fun to drive.

• 2:29:52Griffin Newman?

  They're such good designs.

• 2:29:53David Sims?

  Griffin, would you, you're not a car driver.

• 2:29:55Griffin Newman?

  Would I drive a spaceship? Absolutely.

• 2:29:57Speaker 03

  And they like tumble.

• 2:29:57Griffin Newman?

  I don't like roads. I love the sky.

• 2:30:00David Sims?

  It's interesting, cause right, there's, there's definitely, I don't know. When you're in the sky, you know, you don't wanna go down.

• 2:30:07Speaker 03

  There's like a whole other.

• 2:30:08David Sims?

  There is a whole other axis. That is absolutely right.

• 2:30:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:11Speaker 04

  And what I like about these spaceships is they, they tumble through the air. They don't seem to have an upward, they sort of.

• 2:30:18David Sims?

  There's a spitty guy.

• 2:30:19Speaker 04

  They just go, so whatever direction they want. Do you know, originally Spielberg's idea for the ships was that, um, the ships would present in ways that they thought people would like, like that, that like, that like humans would feel comforted. And so it was the McDonald's arches.

• 2:30:36David Sims?

  Really?

• 2:30:37Speaker 04

  And the Chevron logo. And like, they made these ships that were like, oh, it's the McDonald's arches going through the sky and all this stuff. And then he was like, no, this is too.

• 2:30:44David Sims?

  That's goofy.

• 2:30:44Speaker 04

  This is too. But they are great ships.

• 2:30:46David Sims?

  They're cool ships. I mean, I think the mother ship's amazing. It's in, you can see it, right? Like the model is viewable somewhere, some museum or something.

• 2:30:53Griffin Newman?

  It's a Smithsonian, I think.

• 2:30:54David Sims?

  Yeah, right. It's very cool.

• 2:30:55Speaker 03

  It's just lights. It's just darkness and light.

• 2:30:58Griffin Newman?

  But it's also a very intricate.

• 2:31:00David Sims?

  Yeah. It's like, there's all these like spokes and skyscrapers on it that you can.

• 2:31:04Griffin Newman?

  You saw the fucking, I just showed you the footage from the special edition, but that's like, when you're inside the ship, you don't see aliens any further. You just see that it's basically like a city inside.

• 2:31:15David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:31:16Griffin Newman?

  Right? Um, it's just crazy to think that Trumble worked on this and Star Wars and John Williams.

• 2:31:21David Sims?

  He didn't work on Star Wars.

• 2:31:23Griffin Newman?

  Why did I see that he worked on Star Wars?

• 2:31:24David Sims?

  No, he turned down Star Wars.

• 2:31:26Griffin Newman?

  But did he not do any work on it?

• 2:31:27Speaker 04

  He probably, uh, maybe he gets like a thank you for some.

• 2:31:31Griffin Newman?

  He jumped in. He wasn't, he obviously didn't lead the team.

• 2:31:33Speaker 04

  Famously, he said no to Star Wars.

• 2:31:35Griffin Newman?

  I know that.

• 2:31:36David Sims?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 2:31:37Griffin Newman?

  The thing I know is that he put R2D2.

• 2:31:39Speaker 04

  Cause Dykstrud did it.

• 2:31:40Griffin Newman?

  Right. But I think he fucking did some pitch hitting.

• 2:31:43Speaker 04

  I have no idea.

• 2:31:44Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Trumble put R2D2 and the X-Wing on the model.

• 2:31:48David Sims?

  No, it's a tie fighter, I believe.

• 2:31:50Griffin Newman?

  I'm sorry, you're right.

• 2:31:50Speaker 04

  Well, R2D2 is on the model.

• 2:31:52David Sims?

  Yes, he just said that.

• 2:31:53Griffin Newman?

  And a tie fighter.

• 2:31:54David Sims?

  He literally said that two seconds ago.

• 2:31:55Speaker 04

  Yes, and I thought you corrected him and said no.

• 2:31:57David Sims?

  No, he said an X-Wing, it's a tie fighter.

• 2:31:59Griffin Newman?

  On X-Wing, it was a tie fighter.

• 2:32:00David Sims?

  Okay? Twin ion engines.

• 2:32:02Speaker 03

  A decade of dreams. I don't like how the alien spaceship is like, spotless.

• 2:32:10Speaker 03

  It bothers me.

• 2:32:11Speaker 04

  The inside of it?

• 2:32:12David Sims?

  We're talking about the inside, which is right. It's like, get rid of that.

• 2:32:15Griffin Newman?

  But that's what Star Wars is for. Star Wars is dirty space.

• 2:32:18David Sims?

  Yeah, anyway, Star Trek: The Motion Picture is what Trumbull then works on because they're like, we want 2001 vibes, which that movie has.

• 2:32:24Griffin Newman?

  So was it just him being friends with the Star Wars team?

• 2:32:26David Sims?

  Yeah, I think it's just a little joke.

• 2:32:28Griffin Newman?

  Him putting them on the ship is when they're in production.

• 2:32:31David Sims?

  I know.

• 2:32:32Griffin Newman?

  Like it's these two convers-

• 2:32:33David Sims?

  But he's also like, no one's telling him like, hey, years later, there'll be discs and people can go frame by frame and see your little joke.

• 2:32:40Speaker 04

  And I think-

• 2:32:40David Sims?

  You know, he's meaning it is like, ah, no one will ever catch that.

• 2:32:43Speaker 04

  I think it was more the, um, Miniaturist guy worked on Star Wars.

• 2:32:47David Sims?

  I think you might be right.

• 2:32:48Griffin Newman?

  I think you're right.

• 2:32:49Speaker 04

  And then, so something that I want to talk about is cloud boxes.

• 2:32:54Griffin Newman?

  Let's do it.

• 2:32:56Speaker 04

  This film is one of the, um, innovations in cloud boxes, which is an effect that Spielberg uses a lot. And that branches off from here. So this film has these amazing effect shots where the clouds billow out from the sky.

• 2:33:14David Sims?

  Right. They sort of, their first clouds, then ships.

• 2:33:17Speaker 04

  Yes. And this is a film, this is a film with no CGI in it. It is all practical VFX done through optical tricks. And the cloud box was this really cool effect that, um, basically Spielberg had this thing where he's like, I want clap, I want the ships to be hidden in clouds and for clouds to sort of like form to continue to hide the ships. Cause originally the mothership was supposed to be a lack of light. It was going to be a big, black-

• 2:33:41David Sims?

  A pie plate.

• 2:33:42Speaker 04

  Yes. It was good. It was gonna be like, oh, the stars go away. And that's what the mothership is. Which is why when you watch the finale scene, it's very interesting. When you learn about the production of stuff and you watch the finale, you realize what kind of a mishmash, because it was such a crazy production.

• 2:33:57Griffin Newman?

  Well, the backlighting of the aliens is like maybe the single smartest filmmaking decision you make in the entire film.

• 2:34:03David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:34:03Griffin Newman?

  Where every time you see a glimpse, you're like, I can't believe how good that looks. But you're like, if the shot lasted a second longer, the angle was like one degree off.

• 2:34:11Speaker 04

  The only shot that really show you of the face is like a boop-

• 2:34:14Griffin Newman?

  I know.

• 2:34:14Speaker 04

  Shot where it cuts between the kid Barry's face and the alien face really quick. And it's like, there it is.

• 2:34:20Griffin Newman?

  It's why the smile is effective for me because it's the one kind of sustained thing along with the hand dresser where you're like, I can't believe this works.

• 2:34:27Speaker 04

  But there's like-

• 2:34:27Griffin Newman?

  He's very dark. He's mostly silhouetted, like-

• 2:34:29Speaker 04

  There's a lot of lack of- Continuity in the finale, that's very fascinating where it's like, um, they shot some stuff where it's like, oh, the mothership comes down. And when it was supposed to be a black void, you see a big shadow go over everybody. And it's like this really great shot where a shadow goes over everyone. But then in the final thing, it's this bright glowing thing and other shots, it's glowing everything up. And you're like, wait, what? But what I love is Spielberg, just like, whatever. It's more the feeling of it all.

• 2:34:54Griffin Newman?

  Yes. This is also his first movie with Michael Khan.

• 2:34:57Speaker 04

  It is.

• 2:34:57Griffin Newman?

  Who then becomes one of his closest and most important collaborators.

• 2:35:00David Sims?

  I think their, their relationship has always just been defined as like, they can finish each other's sentences or whatever. It's just like very, very, very tight collaboration.

• 2:35:07Griffin Newman?

  But that also that Michael Khan is like, this is an emotional art form for me. I do not care about like maintaining continuity or like a sort of cleanness or a precision. It is about like cutting to emotion and story.

• 2:35:21Speaker 04

  Like the big one they talk about is like when the mothership rises from above. It starts low and then comes up over the horizon. But then you see the wide shot and it's larger than the entire mountain. And you're like, well, then where was it to come up from? And Spielberg's like, it doesn't make sense, but who cares? It's better than it lowering. It's rising is better than lowering.

• 2:35:40Griffin Newman?

  But then you get to like Jurassic Park and Jurassic Park has the thing where like the, the T Rex in the rain sequence. You can clearly see the other side of the fence is like forest where the T Rex is coming from. And then like five minutes later, they're hanging over a cliff in that exact same spot. And all that forest has disappeared. And like by 20 years later, Spielberg is consciously designing sequences and building sets to ignore continuity. Because he's basically learned it doesn't matter. If you're making the audience focus on the right things and you're carrying them along in the story, who gives a shit?

• 2:36:14Speaker 04

  Yes. So back to cloud boxes. It's this effect that I think defines the eighties. Uh, we got it, we get it in Ghostbuster, we get it in Poltergeist, we get in Close Encounters, we get it in Indiana Jones. We get it in Never Ending Story. We get it in tons of stuff. They even use it in Tree of Life and all these things. And it's that amazing effect where it's like clouds are like appearing out of the sky and like billowing forward.

• 2:36:35David Sims?

  It's like fast motion clouds is what it looks like.

• 2:36:37Speaker 04

  It's unbelievable. But when you think about it, you're like, how did they do that without CGI?

• 2:36:42David Sims?

  Put a bunch of shit in a box?

• 2:36:43Speaker 04

  So what they did, so it, it came because, um, I guess Douglas Trumbull was like making coffee and he put cream in his coffee and saw that it like billowed. And he's like, hmm. And then. His assistant at times, this guy Scott Squires and was like, hey, go like, buy stuff at the grocery store and like experiment and figure some stuff out. What's cool is this guy Scott Squires now has a blog. It's like an old blog spot where he just tells stories about like the old days of VFX and he has a whole thing about the cloud box and how it came to be. And so what they ended up doing is they had a, a tank that was like seven foot by like, whatever, like 16 feet or something.

• 2:37:24Speaker 04

  This giant tank that, and like three feet deep and they filled it with filtered water with salt in it, salt water filtered. And then they put a thin layer of plastic over it and then carefully poured non-salt water over it. So at the top, because of density, the salt water stayed at the bottom and the regular water stayed at the top. And they very carefully removed the plastic so that you had this tank that had one layer of regular water and then beneath it, a layer of salt water. And then they got like tempera paints, you know, like the type of paint that you might use to do like an art project. And they used a syringe and they put it in the water and because it, it billows out in the regular water.

• 2:38:09Speaker 04

  But the salt water is dense enough, but you can still see through it. It doesn't go to the salt water. It just stays at the top and they put the camera beneath it and it looks like it, this cloud thing and it stops at the salt water and it keeps building forth. So it looks, and it's just like a beautiful effect and it's such a practical, cool thing. And this was where they sort of figured it out and started really doing that. And similar types of effects have been used with ink and water and stuff like that. But this cloud box was like the beginning of this effect that then they started using in all these, you know, famous movies. And it's such a beautiful, haunting effect. Ah, it's so good.

• 2:38:42David Sims?

  I prefer CG though.

• 2:38:44Speaker 04

  I know you do.

• 2:38:44David Sims?

  Regular ass CG.

• 2:38:45Speaker 04

  I know.

• 2:38:46David Sims?

  Like a talking polar bear with the rock.

• 2:38:48Speaker 04

  Your favorite part of Star Wars has been like the, before the scene starts, a robot bonks another robot in the head.

• 2:38:53David Sims?

  Yeah, I like to pull out and see more of Mos Eisley and it's like, there's like one creature there.

• 2:38:57Speaker 04

  You like when ET runs. You like when ET runs.

• 2:39:01David Sims?

  Yeah. God, I fucking love that.

• 2:39:02Speaker 04

  I make that fucker run. Yeah. Um, okay. One thing, the most seventies part of this movie, because it was a movie that I didn't really remember was a seventies movie.

• 2:39:11David Sims?

  Sorry, which is seventies?

• 2:39:13Speaker 04

  For some reason in my head, it's like lodged in the eighties. Cause like, that's, you know.

• 2:39:17David Sims?

  Carry on.

• 2:39:17Speaker 04

  More the.

• 2:39:18David Sims?

  Spielberg, the eighties movie.

• 2:39:19Speaker 04

  The most seventies thing in this movie is that in the middle of it, they have a shot where a police car falls off a cliff, which is like, that's like the timestamp.

• 2:39:27David Sims?

  The preloaded stunt of the era.

• 2:39:29Speaker 04

  Where it's like, well, it's a movie, so we have to have a car go off a cliff at some point. The other thing that I think is very funny that, well, okay, another thing is Spielberg, we love Spielberg. I love Spielberg. I think he's great. He's wonderful.

• 2:39:43David Sims?

  It would be weird if two and a half hours in, you're like Spielberg.

• 2:39:46Griffin Newman?

  This guy's in my opinion, a hack.

• 2:39:47Speaker 04

  This is not, this is not me trying to get on Spielberg. He's not great with foreign cultures.

• 2:39:53David Sims?

  Well, I think also the era is not great.

• 2:39:55Speaker 04

  The era is not great, but like, there is a couple of things in this where it's like, some weird stuff. And I'm like, okay.

• 2:40:01David Sims?

  But you look at Independence Day 20 years later, 20ish years later, where they're like, America defeats the aliens. Let's, um, can we cut to like a, I don't know, Africa for five seconds where there's some like tribesmen also being like, yay, the aliens died. You're like, and that's enough of that.

• 2:40:16Griffin Newman?

  That was the third major new thing film for the special edition. It's the shower conversation between Niri and his wife. It's the end inside the spaceship and it's the Gobi Desert thing with the ship, with the ocean liner.

• 2:40:30Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:40:30Griffin Newman?

  Which that was the big one where he's like, I had this idea in my head. No one would give me more money at this point to do an even bigger effect. And you get the sense that he wanted maybe more of a structure of like, the first half of the movie, we're watching Truffaut and Balaban follow different strange occurrences before the threads finally converge. But that becomes like, to your point, David, the way that like all Roland Emmerich movies are structured after this, which is like every 20 minutes, there's a new inexplicable event happening in some other country.

• 2:40:59David Sims?

  Right, but the other events are usually like, yeah, Hong Kong, it gets obliterated, moving on back to, you know, like, you know, you're like, okay, sure, great. I get that this is global now. Anyway.

• 2:41:07Speaker 04

  And then the last thing that was making me laugh was, um, that made this like very clearly a seventies movie is that the whole idea is that there's this project Mayflower, which is these like group of people that have been like selected to like, go like.

• 2:41:20David Sims?

  Right, be the initial.

• 2:41:21Speaker 04

  Continue the.

• 2:41:21David Sims?

  Right, yes.

• 2:41:22Speaker 04

  Number one, my question, I think is so funny is that they accept all the humans back from the aliens, right? Like all the like people that have gone.

• 2:41:30David Sims?

  It's a straight trade.

• 2:41:31Speaker 04

  They don't look okay. And no one asked them like, hey, what happened to you before they send a bunch of humans back in the thing?

• 2:41:39David Sims?

  No, they also-

• 2:41:40Speaker 04

  They take these like traumatized looking people back.

• 2:41:42David Sims?

  Yeah, but they're not coming out being like, don't go in there.

• 2:41:45Speaker 04

  But don't, but don't you think you, you'd be like, hey, before we send a bunch of new people on a, like, is everything okay in there? Like, did something bad happen? But instead there's like, welcome, well, no questions. Then, and then the Project Mayflower people that they select to be the representatives of the human race on this ship. It's like 13 people, 10 of them are white dudes. There's two women and then one black guy.

• 2:42:10David Sims?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a 70s comedy writer room.

• 2:42:13Speaker 04

  That's the representative of the human race.

• 2:42:15David Sims?

  Right. You know, it's like, oh, we had the best writing staff on our sitcom, 11 white guys and the lady. And maybe a black guy came in once in a while.

• 2:42:21Griffin Newman?

  The wildest thing is that's also like the writing staff of the Richard Pryor show.

• 2:42:24Speaker 04

  Right, exactly. But it was like, I'm like-

• 2:42:26Griffin Newman?

  You're like 10 white guys named Melvin, Sandra Bernhard, and Paul Mooney.

• 2:42:30David Sims?

  Bob Jim was so funny. You got to this guy like eating a sandwich.

• 2:42:36Speaker 04

  But it's like, they're like, this is gonna be the representative of all of you. And it's, it's like 10 of the same dude.

• 2:42:44Griffin Newman?

  I love those red jumpsuits, though.

• 2:42:45Speaker 04

  The one addition, the last thing, like, we need to add another one. And it's Richard Dreyfuss. And you're like, guys, come on.

• 2:42:52Griffin Newman?

  Can we get, add one more white dude with really bad energy?

• 2:42:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Let's add a guy who's here who does not seem okay on earth. And let's, because also if you're the aliens, you're probably like, who is this guy? Who's this like sunburnt guy?

• 2:43:08Griffin Newman?

  A little too eager. Yeah.

• 2:43:11Speaker 03

  The film was released in November 16th, 1977. It was a huge hit.

• 2:43:16Griffin Newman?

  Delayed, was originally supposed to be a summer release?

• 2:43:18Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 2:43:18Speaker 04

  Wait, I was, I, I was seeing that it was released on December 14th.

• 2:43:23Speaker 03

  You are wrong.

• 2:43:25Griffin Newman?

  It's December 14th when it went wide, possibly?

• 2:43:27Speaker 03

  I think it had some exclusive runs, but uh-

• 2:43:31Speaker 04

  I was being sent a text from someone saying, what, that, people were saying like this week. Oh, it's the, the anniversary of when it's- It's, I-

• 2:43:39David Sims?

  I don't know what to tell you.

• 2:43:40Griffin Newman?

  I don't.

• 2:43:41David Sims?

  They wanted it to be a summer movie.

• 2:43:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:44David Sims?

  And instead they platformed it and did exclusive runs, which is maybe what you're thinking of.

• 2:43:49Griffin Newman?

  I mean, absolutely to this movie's benefit that it didn't come out in the same summer as Star Wars.

• 2:43:53David Sims?

  Exactly. Six months later, it is the second biggest hit of the year after Star Wars. The other big hits being Saturday Night Fever, Smokey and the Bandit, and The Goodbye Girl. Worth mentioning, what a big hit.

• 2:44:04Griffin Newman?

  Five.

• 2:44:05David Sims?

  Dreyfus is in two of the five, you know? But it's opening number nine at the box office because, you know, that's how it is back in the day. So what's number one at the box office? A movie that screams number one?

• 2:44:18Griffin Newman?

  The Goodbye Girl?

• 2:44:19David Sims?

  No.

• 2:44:20Griffin Newman?

  Okay, but it's in that zone?

• 2:44:21David Sims?

  No.

• 2:44:22Griffin Newman?

  No?

• 2:44:22David Sims?

  Very dark movie, based on a bestseller.

• 2:44:24Griffin Newman?

  Okay, opposite zone. Um, in 1977, it's based on a bestseller. Is it based on, is it a nonfiction bestseller?

• 2:44:33David Sims?

  No, uh, it's sort of, no, it's based on.

• 2:44:35Griffin Newman?

  Is it looking for Mr. Goodbar?

• 2:44:36David Sims?

  It's looking for Mr. Goodbar.

• 2:44:38Griffin Newman?

  There we go.

• 2:44:39David Sims?

  Uh, the movie about a schoolteacher who, played by Dan Keaton, who has something of a sexual awakening, starts having random sex with people and gets, spoiler alert, moided.

• 2:44:48Griffin Newman?

  It is kind of funny that it's like 1977, it feels like the two big stars of the year are Dreyfus and Keaton for the combined, like Goodbye Girl, Close Encounters, Annie Hall, Looking for Mr. Goodbar, which is kind of like a perfect four square of where commercial cinema was in the 1970s.

• 2:45:07David Sims?

  Well, here's another square for you, though. Number two at the box office. It's the, it's a franchise starter. We'll do this franchise one day.

• 2:45:14Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:45:15David Sims?

  Comedy.

• 2:45:16Griffin Newman?

  It's a comedy. Is it, uh, Any Which Way?

• 2:45:19David Sims?

  No.

• 2:45:19Griffin Newman?

  No, okay. It's not Smokey and the Bandit.

• 2:45:21David Sims?

  No.

• 2:45:22Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:45:22Speaker 04

  Is it Austin Powers one?

• 2:45:24Griffin Newman?

  What was that reaction? You were getting ready to say something.

• 2:45:26David Sims?

  No, I was just, I would, no, I was, I was just like, oh, he's gonna do a joke. And then he did that joke. And I was like, do I, how do I respond to that?

• 2:45:33Griffin Newman?

  I thought it was funny. It was off the laugh, with a kind laugh, a chuckle, a smile to a friend.

• 2:45:37David Sims?

  Fair enough.

• 2:45:37Griffin Newman?

  Uh, is it Oh God?

• 2:45:39David Sims?

  There you go.

• 2:45:39Griffin Newman?

  Okay, we've been long threatening.

• 2:45:41David Sims?

  In Oh God.

• 2:45:42Griffin Newman?

  Have you seen any of the Oh God trilogy?

• 2:45:44David Sims?

  I have not.

• 2:45:45Griffin Newman?

  We, we just feel like we will find them funny, but I think we have. Avoid it actually.

• 2:45:50David Sims?

  I think we might find the first one funny.

• 2:45:52Griffin Newman?

  Cause we're worried that will happen.

• 2:45:53David Sims?

  Cause there are two sequels.

• 2:45:54Griffin Newman?

  That it might be a bit of a jelly trilogy.

• 2:45:56David Sims?

  Oh, God Book Two and Oh, God, You Devil.

• 2:45:59Speaker 04

  Okay, I don't know these movies.

• 2:46:00David Sims?

  It's about George Burns is like, I, I've, I'm God.

• 2:46:04Griffin Newman?

  Here's the pitch. In 1977, they said, what if George Burns was God and America like screamed in joy?

• 2:46:11David Sims?

  They did.

• 2:46:11Griffin Newman?

  More, more, more, more.

• 2:46:13David Sims?

  Number three, and it's 26th week in the box office, is the biggest movie of the year.

• 2:46:18Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Star Wars.

• 2:46:19Speaker 04

  Star Wars.

• 2:46:20Griffin Newman?

  Star Wars.

• 2:46:21David Sims?

  Number four, wait, good movie.

• 2:46:22Griffin Newman?

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:46:23David Sims?

  Is, um, the first movie that Harrison Ford is.

• 2:46:28Griffin Newman?

  Frisco Kid?

• 2:46:29David Sims?

  After Star Wars. It's not the Frisco Kid.

• 2:46:32Griffin Newman?

  Heroes?

• 2:46:32David Sims?

  He had made it before Star Wars. The film is called Heroes.

• 2:46:35Griffin Newman?

  Henry Winkler.

• 2:46:35David Sims?

  With Winkler with like a fright wig. Winkler's got this crazy hair and Sally Field. It's like a Vietnam sort of coming home type movie.

• 2:46:45Griffin Newman?

  And Ford's kind of key supporting.

• 2:46:47David Sims?

  Is it? Have you seen it?

• 2:46:49Griffin Newman?

  I have. Yeah, it's okay.

• 2:46:50David Sims?

  Fair enough.

• 2:46:51Griffin Newman?

  It's okay.

• 2:46:52David Sims?

  Um, Heroes, uh, number four. Yeah, I don't know it very well. And number five is, uh, largely forgotten. It's sort of like a sports movie. It's from a big director with a big star. Uh, I've seen it. It's not bad.

• 2:47:07Griffin Newman?

  But it's largely forgotten.

• 2:47:08David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:47:08Griffin Newman?

  In 1977. It's not bad news bears.

• 2:47:12David Sims?

  No, that's not largely forgotten.

• 2:47:13Griffin Newman?

  I know. That's why I'm trying to think of what is largely forgotten, but you've seen it and it's a big director and a big star.

• 2:47:19David Sims?

  Yeah, but it's like a flop for both of them.

• 2:47:21Griffin Newman?

  Is telling me what sport it is, would that give it away?

• 2:47:24David Sims?

  I'll tell you. Racing.

• 2:47:26Griffin Newman?

  It's a racing movie.

• 2:47:27David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:47:28Griffin Newman?

  Um, and is it, is it a McQueen?

• 2:47:31David Sims?

  Nope.

• 2:47:32Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 2:47:33David Sims?

  But it is a star that Spielberg went out to for Close Encounters.

• 2:47:36Griffin Newman?

  Is it, uh, fuck.

• 2:47:40David Sims?

  Yeah, you, you probably know what it is, but can't even remember the name.

• 2:47:42Griffin Newman?

  Is it the Robert Redford one?

• 2:47:44David Sims?

  Nope.

• 2:47:44Griffin Newman?

  No, okay. And it's not Paul Newman.

• 2:47:46David Sims?

  Nope.

• 2:47:46Griffin Newman?

  I'm trying to think of stars who did car racing movies. It's, Grand Prix is obviously much earlier. Um, well, that's what I said. I'm working through it. Uh, big star, big director.

• 2:47:59David Sims?

  Big star, big director.

• 2:48:00Griffin Newman?

  Big director.

• 2:48:01David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:02Griffin Newman?

  Um, it's racing, car racing.

• 2:48:05David Sims?

  Yep, Formula One.

• 2:48:06Griffin Newman?

  It's Formula One.

• 2:48:07David Sims?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:48:08Griffin Newman?

  Huh. Do you have any idea what this is right now?

• 2:48:12David Sims?

  Well, I'll tell you then, do you know?

• 2:48:14Speaker 04

  I was not paying attention.

• 2:48:15David Sims?

  Uh, that it's an Al Pacino movie. And if you don't know after that, then you probably just don't know the name of the movie.

• 2:48:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, what is this?

• 2:48:22David Sims?

  The movie is Sidney Pollack's Bobby Deerfield.

• 2:48:24Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say, I didn't.

• 2:48:26David Sims?

  You didn't know that was a racing movie?

• 2:48:27Griffin Newman?

  I didn't know it was a racing.

• 2:48:28David Sims?

  You just know like the poster.

• 2:48:29Griffin Newman?

  I know the poster of him with like a scarf.

• 2:48:31David Sims?

  And you know, that's like a classic bad Al Pacino, like Al Pacino movie that didn't work.

• 2:48:35Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:48:35David Sims?

  In between all the ones that did.

• 2:48:36Griffin Newman?

  I've seen that poster, which is like, I feel like black and white, him with a scarf, Sidney Pollack movie. And I was just like, that's probably about like a poet or something.

• 2:48:44David Sims?

  Bobby Deerfield.

• 2:48:45Griffin Newman?

  Okay, I was almost gonna guess that and I was like, that will sound silly that I thought that was a racing movie.

• 2:48:50David Sims?

  Um, other movies in the top 10, uh, you've got a Burt Reynolds movie called Semi Tough.

• 2:48:57Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:48:57David Sims?

  Uh, sports movie, Michael Ritchie movie where, uh, is it, it's a football movie with.

• 2:49:02Griffin Newman?

  It's him going back to the football, well.

• 2:49:04David Sims?

  Jill Clayberg is like a love triangle or something. Uh, never seen it. Uh, you've got First Love, which is a, uh, romantic movie, if that, that might surprise you.

• 2:49:15Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:49:16David Sims?

  With William Cat.

• 2:49:17Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure.

• 2:49:18David Sims?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 2:49:20Griffin Newman?

  You seem excited by this box office.

• 2:49:21David Sims?

  It's got some, some Cat Stevens songs in it.

• 2:49:24Griffin Newman?

  Oh, well.

• 2:49:25David Sims?

  I don't know.

• 2:49:25Griffin Newman?

  That must've been novel.

• 2:49:29Griffin Newman?

  What's a young man works through his feelings while Cat Stevens plays?

• 2:49:33Speaker 04

  I feel like you can sort, I feel like especially this era, I mean, I guess it happens all the time. But like, you can sort movies into like, are they part of the future or the past?

• 2:49:42David Sims?

  I think this is trying to be part of the future, but it's just not a very good movie.

• 2:49:45Griffin Newman?

  And then there are like movies that are in.

• 2:49:47David Sims?

  It's trying to be a sensitive sex drama, you know?

• 2:49:49Speaker 04

  As you list these movies, I'm like, oh, these movies are from the seventies and these movies are about to be the eighties.

• 2:49:55Griffin Newman?

  But you have movies like that almost that are like, movies from the past that are trying to dress up like movies from the future? Where they're like, look, he's got long hair and Cat Stevens is playing.

• 2:50:06David Sims?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 2:50:06Griffin Newman?

  And you're like, this movie could have been made in 1925.

• 2:50:10David Sims?

  The, you've also got the Richard Pryor comedy, Which Way Is Up? Uh, which is like, uh, it's a remake of The Seduction of Beemy. Um, I've never seen it, but it's like Pryor playing multiple roles.

• 2:50:20Griffin Newman?

  Right, yeah.

• 2:50:21David Sims?

  Never seen it. Uh, and then you've got Julia, the aforementioned, you know, Lily and Helman drama.

• 2:50:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, right. The prequel to Julie and Julia.

• 2:50:29David Sims?

  Uh.

• 2:50:32Griffin Newman?

  Decade of Dreams, I'm just calling out other movies we've covered in the past.

• 2:50:34David Sims?

  Absolutely. Um, hilariously enough, guess what goes to number one the next week?

• 2:50:39Griffin Newman?

  Hilarious? It's hilarious what goes to number one? It's making you laugh.

• 2:50:44David Sims?

  Not really, I mean, it's just funny.

• 2:50:45Speaker 04

  David's on the floor cracking up.

• 2:50:47David Sims?

  Number one, The Weekend After, which I guess is basically Thanksgiving weekend. Star Wars. People are just like, let's just go see it again.

• 2:50:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:54David Sims?

  You know, it's been like six months of people like Thanksgiving. I'm feeling Star Wars then.

• 2:50:58Griffin Newman?

  You were right, David, that is coming.

• 2:51:00David Sims?

  Star Wars.

• 2:51:00Griffin Newman?

  They probably also, like, that was an era where movies would play for so long that they would refresh the newspaper ads.

• 2:51:06David Sims?

  By Christmas, to speak to your point, by like the weekend of mid-December, Close Encounters has jumped to number one. So I assume by then it's gone quite wide.

• 2:51:14Griffin Newman?

  But they probably bought a bunch of newspaper ads where it's like Chewbacca with a turkey. And then people were like, you're right, I should go again.

• 2:51:20Speaker 04

  The Christmas special drop and people are like, ah.

• 2:51:22David Sims?

  And then Close Encounters is number one through February. Like, you know, because that's how it was back in the day. It's like you would have these, right, you know, these giant hits that just played and there's no, well, you know, people want to see them go over and over.

• 2:51:34Speaker 04

  I mean, people are big Bob Balaban fans.

• 2:51:36David Sims?

  Uh, anyway, Spielberg on reflecting on the movie says, uh, it's a piece of shit and I don't like it very much.

• 2:51:40Griffin Newman?

  That's not.

• 2:51:41David Sims?

  He says what you said, what, you know, the thing you said near the start of the episode, which is like, I was a kid when I made that movie. I didn't have a family. I didn't have kids, so I could understand following your obsession at all costs. And now I wouldn't, but hey, that speaks to Spielberg's life as a filmmaker.

• 2:51:55Griffin Newman?

  I think this is part of what I find compelling about this movie and it exists a lot in Sugar Land as well. And then I'd say he sort of goes away is like, he becomes such an incredible kind of technician of emotion on top of everything else. Like he just figures out the codex of like the perfect narrative arcs for characters and how to express that visually and how to get that performance and all of that. That I like, what I think irks him about this film is that it's like, I didn't make this character work. And I like that it sort of feels like his last kind of deeply unresolved ambiguous character. You know, that like, even when he's making movies about moral ambiguity from this moment on,

• 2:52:39Griffin Newman?

  you always feel the sense of how Spielberg wants you to feel in that scene or that shot.

• 2:52:45Speaker 04

  I also think we've talked about this before, that. When directors are starting their, around the time when they get their blank checks, or just starting their careers, oftentimes the movie is bigger than them and they're trying to rein it in and wrangle this thing that seems impossible.

• 2:53:01Griffin Newman?

  Trying to rein it in, maestro, decade of dreams.

• 2:53:04Speaker 04

  Yes, and oftentimes I find that in those moments of stress while making something that feels like this is impossible, I'm not gonna be able to pull this off, is when the only thing you can rely on is truth.

• 2:53:17Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:53:17Speaker 04

  And just like, what, what is inside you? And that makes movies really special, interesting. And when movies are being like, sort of like, broken apart at the seams, is when the only thing that can fill that is either the thing's gonna not work, or you have to fill it with truth, and that's the only thing you got.

• 2:53:31Griffin Newman?

  And I think he finds some of that unbecoming to re-watch.

• 2:53:35Speaker 04

  Yes, because also in learning about the making of this, the production was crazy. The set was insane.

• 2:53:41Griffin Newman?

  Balaban was fucking jot down shit in a diary.

• 2:53:44Speaker 04

  I mean, one of the things they talked about is how the, the, the, the weather and how hot and horrible it was, and they had hundreds of extras they needed to have. And one of the things I think is wonderful about this movie is that they cast locals to be all of the extras, and eventually just were like, giving people parts because they're just losing people left and right. So when you watch this film now, it's not, you've got some really good faces. There's some really good faces of people who are just like, real people that are not movie stars that will never be in a movie again, and this energy that comes through that's very, there is an unrefinement to it, that I think is, that mixed with the refinement of Douglas Trumbull and Spielberg, mixed with the unrefinement of this giant, huge

• 2:54:27Speaker 04

  budget thing that's sort of like falling apart at the seams in some places, makes it really amazing.

• 2:54:32Griffin Newman?

  And in a movie that's sort of about the inexplicable and the unresolvable.

• 2:54:36Speaker 04

  And that's one of the, one of the, the Balaban moments that's really funny, is he's talking about the aliens, and so. Spielberg wanted the aliens to be played by like 12 year old girls, like dancers. He's like, he's like, just people that are like small, lithe and will be able to like move with some sort of a femininity that isn't stunt people or whatever. And so they cast a bunch of like local dancer girls to be all of the aliens. And they're like, I think like nine and 10 year old girls. But because of that, Balaban tells us like really funny story about shooting that scene and how the, the, the girls were really well behaved, but they're still kids. And so like, there was a bunch of takes where it's like, first, the idea was that they're going to have them all on roller skates

• 2:55:21Speaker 04

  and have them roller skate down so that it felt like they're gliding. But the, the ramp was too steep. And so instead they, all the girls just sort of like tumble and slide down the thing. And inside that, the spaceship was so dangerously hot that they could only put them in there for a couple of minutes and then have to open it and then do the scene. So when it opens up, you just see all these kids sort of like sliding down and like rolling down this thing sort of very unceremoniously. And then they can't really see, so they're all sort of like moving around. And then he tells a story where like the kids would get bored. So in the middle of the take, aliens would just start dancing and like doing like disco moves and stuff. Cause they're just like bored and like, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Okay, guys, you can't dance in the middle of it.

• 2:56:03Speaker 04

  And there's a story where one of the girls pulled off the other one's hand, started hitting her with it. And it became this like, but when you watch it now, you see that it's not this like refined choreographed. It's like a mess of kids that they're just like using the takes where it's like, they're not dancing and hitting each other and being kids. And so it feels like a bunch of like anxious kid energy. And I think those, those rough edges are what make this really beautiful. And, um, you know, I think we talked about this with Burton and other people where it's like, once you get enough control and power and budget, those rough edges get sanded away and it just becomes whatever you want it to be, which is usually within your comfort zone as a creator. And a lot of really great art and great films.

• 2:56:44Speaker 04

  And it's, it's a bummer to say, but it comes from when these things sort of feel like they can barely hold together. And from those rough edges is where like interesting stuff happens.

• 2:56:53Griffin Newman?

  Spielberg is though, I feel like one of the rare examples of someone who got access to everything and all the acclaim and success in the world and still found ways to stay vital and connected. And I think part of that is him being smart about knowing how to challenge himself. The challenge isn't going to come from the limitations of me not knowing what I'm doing or no one believing in me. But can I go into a genre I don't know? Can I try to make the film fast? Like, I mean, I do think much like Soderbergh, a lot of it for him is like, go in and try to game it out on the day and challenge myself to see how quickly I can get through pages. Not because I'm lazy, but I need that sort of pressure and struggle. Yeah. But it is true. This is one of the last times that

• 2:57:37Griffin Newman?

  he has that. Even on Raiders where he's like, I'm trying to be on rails. I need to come in under budget, under schedule. That's self-discipline. He's, Lucas is fucking giving him the money for it. Paramount, they got like a sweetheart deal. He doesn't need to do that. He's proving that to himself. That changes the rest of his career. But basically, he gets to do whatever he wants from Raiders.

• 2:57:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. And here are the budgets blowing up, the sets falling down. He has no idea what he wants the ending to be, what the aliens look like. And from that, you get this really personal film that comes out that has these elements of truth. And I think that's, I think those are really beautiful films when that happens.

• 2:58:12Griffin Newman?

  I agree. Beautifully said. JD, after midnight?

• 2:58:14Speaker 04

  After midnight, CBS.

• 2:58:16Griffin Newman?

  People love it. The people are talking.

• 2:58:19David Sims?

  I see clips. I don't watch it live. I'm sorry.

• 2:58:21Speaker 04

  We're trying to do fun stuff. We're trying to do cool stuff.

• 2:58:23Griffin Newman?

  I walk into the office, everyone's red eyed, they're bleary eyed. Oh, they haven't shaved. Their shirts miss buttoned. I go, what happened to you last night? They went, I stayed up after midnight. Oh, it couldn't turn off the TV. I was watching the show. I didn't get no sleep.

• 2:58:37Speaker 04

  Taylor Tomlinson, one of the best comedians working right now.

• 2:58:40Griffin Newman?

  She's great.

• 2:58:40Speaker 04

  Wonderful.

• 2:58:41David Sims?

  She's great. So funny.

• 2:58:42Speaker 04

  A fun part of that job is that we're on the Paramount lot.

• 2:58:45Griffin Newman?

  Hey.

• 2:58:46Speaker 04

  And it's very fun.

• 2:58:48David Sims?

  Movie lot.

• 2:58:48Speaker 04

  I get to drive in past the Paramount arches.

• 2:58:51Griffin Newman?

  You walk past that, uh, Ten Commandments tank?

• 2:58:54Speaker 04

  My parking spot is in the Ten Commandments.

• 2:58:56Griffin Newman?

  The tank.

• 2:58:57Speaker 04

  It's in the tank.

• 2:58:58Griffin Newman?

  The tank!

• 2:58:59David Sims?

  Very cool.

• 2:58:59Speaker 04

  The Truman, and then I have to wake, walk through fake New York City to get to my office. And then our stage is the Godfather stage.

• 2:59:06Griffin Newman?

  Thank you for being here, JD.

• 2:59:07Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be back. Uh, I love Close to Town a third time.

• 2:59:11David Sims?

  You're, you're excited to be back six weeks before.

• 2:59:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, uh, this is, this is for the real people, the working class, the people who, not the Patreon elites. These, this is for-

• 2:59:21David Sims?

  The episode just has to end.

• 2:59:22Griffin Newman?

  JD hates being paywall, the motto. He's, he's gotta play both sides.

• 2:59:26David Sims?

  Yes, I get the-

• 2:59:27Griffin Newman?

  Ben is rubbing his temples. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for 1941.

• 2:59:35David Sims?

  Yeah, right?

• 2:59:36Griffin Newman?

  Calamity, bounce!

• 2:59:37David Sims?

  Yes, yes, 1941.

• 2:59:39Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:59:40David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:40Griffin Newman?

  When are the blinkies happening?

• 2:59:42David Sims?

  Uh, a couple, end of Feb.

• 2:59:43Griffin Newman?

  Later. Okay, so yeah, tune in next week for 1941.

• 2:59:47David Sims?

  Yes. Which hopefully will be a good episode. We're, we're working on it.

• 2:59:52Griffin Newman?

  I'm, I'm promising.

• 2:59:53David Sims?

  That's the, we're working on it.

• 2:59:54Griffin Newman?

  I'm promising it'll be a great episode. You know why? Because, and as always, this is a decade of dreams!