“I Don’t Trust Them” - Branding Expert Camille Moore on Arrae’s Dishonest Protein Marketing

Here’s a run down of what we discussed in today’s episode: Introduction Why Wellness Marketing Hits Different AG1 and the Power of Strategy Over Substance TikTok Green Flags and Red Flags What Gen Z and Millennials Really Want From Brands When Transparency Becomes a Superpower Arrae Protein and Other Marketing Fails Other Sneaky Tactics Wellness Brands Use Crisis Mode: How (Not) to Handle a PR Disaster Influencer Partnerships That Make or Break a Brand Hot Seat: Camille Reviews Neue Theory Three Red Flags to Watch For in Wellness Marketing How to Spot Hype vs. Truth Check in with today’s amazing guest: Camille Moore Website: camille-moore.com Podcast: The Art of the Brand Company: Third Eye Insights Instagram: @Camillemoore Disclaimer: The content in this episode is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is never a substitute for medical advice. If you’re struggling with with your mental or physical health, please work one on one with a health care provider. If you have heard yourself in our discussion today, and are looking for support, contact the free NEDIC helpline at 1-866-NEDIC-20 or go to eatingdisorderhope.com. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✨ Reach Your Weight & Health Goals — Without Dieting! Pre-order The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, Abbey’s revolutionary additive approach to eating well. Learn how to boost satiety, stabilize blood sugars, reduce disease risk, and improve your relationship with food — all while getting the best nutrient bang for your caloric buck. With 400+ research citations, cheat sheets, evidence-based actionable tips, meal plans, and adaptable recipes, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method is the only nutrition bible you’ll ever need. 👉 Pre-order today! 🛒 Where to Purchase: Amazon Barnes & Noble Amazon Kindle Apple Books Google Play Kobo Apple Books (Audiobook) Audible abbeyskitchen.com/hunger-crushing-combo • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✉️ Subscribe to My Newsletters: Abbey’s Kitchen Newsletter 📘 Check out my FREE E-Books: Hunger Crushing Combo™ E-Book Protein 101 E-Book 👋 Follow me! Instagram: @abbeyskitchen TikTok: @abbeyskitchen YouTube: @AbbeysKitchen Blog: abbeyskitchen.com Book: The Mindful Glow Cookbook • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen — and leave us a review! It really helps support the show ❤️ 💬 If you liked this podcast, please like, follow, and leave a review — and let me know who you’d love to hear about next! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐ ⭐ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  I don't trust them. And for them to have on their video a beautiful husband and wife couple that have launched this small business talking about they wanted to enter into the protein space but do it differently. It's all a lie.

• 0:47Abbey Sharp?

  Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abbey Sharp, where I dismantle die culture rules, call out the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good. Today, we are diving deep into the world of wellness marketing, where the lines between health, hype, and hustle can get really blurry, really fast. From supplements that promise miracles to campaigns that prey on our insecurities, the wellness industry is full of bold claims and beautiful packaging, but not always a lot of trustworthiness and truth. And to help us make sense of it all, I'm joined by Camille Moore,

• 1:30Abbey Sharp?

  a branding expert and founder of Third Eye Insights, a full-service marketing agency that helps brands connect with their audience without compromising on integrity. Today, Camille and I are going to be talking about some of the biggest marketing fails in the wellness space. And yes, we are naming names. We are going to talk about the shady tactics that brands use to build trust and then break your trust. We're going to chat about how not to work with celebrities and influencers and why transparency is not just a buzzword, but a true form of currency for millennial and Gen Z consumers. Very quickly, if you are not Subscribed, I would love if you would hit that subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts,

• 2:15Abbey Sharp?

  because it really does help me out as a new podcast. And if you would also leave us a little comment on this episode and a five star review if you're enjoying the show. So folks, if you have ever stood in the health food aisle staring down a wall of options, wondering which brand to trust, this episode is for you. Let's get into it.

• 2:41Abbey Sharp?

  All right, Camille, I am so excited about this interview. I don't know how this has not happened before, because you were friends with my sister-in-law and I've known her since she was like a little 10-year-old. So I'm very excited to make this happen.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  I actually bought your first cookbook.

• 2:56Abbey Sharp?

  That's crazy.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Because we were so, we were so proud of Alana's brother's sister's wife being this famous. So I have Abbey's Kitchen in my kitchen. How long ago was that?

• 3:06Abbey Sharp?

  That was like seven years ago.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is a full circle moment. I'm very excited.

• 3:12Abbey Sharp?

  Very excited. Okay, okay, we've got lots to talk about. And obviously you work with a wide range of categories of clients. But we're obviously going to focus on wellness, because this is the Bite Back with Addie Sharp podcast. So just to kind of start us off here, you know, obviously, good branding, good marketing is important for any brand. Why is it so critical in the wellness category?

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Cool, because there's just so much snake oil.

• 3:39Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Right? Like it's, it's really fascinating. There's a bunch of, there's a bunch of reasons. The first is anything health and wellness is historically has been like the magic pill. Like it has been the snake oil, because people don't, you know, just want to eat their broccoli and like just want to do, they want to do like this, drink the water, you know, like they want to get.

• 3:58Abbey Sharp?

  Drink the AG1 and you know, everything's.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  It'll be healthy. No problem. You talk about three times, you know, worries. If you drink AG1, you're good. But that's kind of the first thing. The second, the second reason is. Politically, it's never been more relevant. So with the last US election cycle, it really turned on Make America Healthy Again. And it's been really fascinating from the role that I sit in, what I need to study from what's happening within the psychology of gen pop, where you're really seeing a massive shift towards monies being invested in anything health and wellness and organic. And it's why podcasts and platforms like yours are so important because the consumers are becoming more educated.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  So previously, the target market persona of health and wellness tended to be upper-middle-class, educated, when women have children. That's when that buying decision, because it's no longer about you, it's about you now have other people you're bringing into the world. But after Trump winning and really how that election cycle changed, the idea of health and wellness and making healthy decisions has now entered into an entirely different economical class. And for that reason, the market cap of health and wellness is much bigger. So it's so much more important that not only is the messaging accurate, but if you're

• 5:23Speaker 01

  a business that's in the space, understanding how to break through, because your conception of how to communicate is often very different than what the consumer is looking for.

• 5:32Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. That is, I never really thought about the political implications of this, but you're absolutely right. It really does affect everyone. And, you know, from my perspective as a brand owner and also a dietitian, like, there's just so much competition. Like, there's just so many products out there. Every single day, I'm seeing, you know, new products on my TikTok feed, new things pop up in my mailbox. And so it is very hard for the layperson to make sense of, you know, what is worth trying and what is not.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Especially when everybody wants to be healthy now, of course.

• 6:11Abbey Sharp?

  Right? Like, and which is a great thing, but...

• 6:14Speaker 01

  People want to be healthy without really the most important piece, which is education.

• 6:19Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Like, to be healthy without being educated allows you to buy these products that say like, gluten free when there was never gluten in them. You know, like, and, and that's where you're seeing really this like wellness washing of trying to dupe people to making, because it's, it becomes a treat, right? We're in a treat economy. You feel like you're treating yourself if you do something that's healthy. But like, it tastes good and like, it tastes sweet. And like, and again, we're not talking about a very niche, specific audience that is like, I know what sugar tastes like. We're talking about really everybody entering into wanting to make healthier, very much with air quote, choices.

• 6:56Abbey Sharp?

  And that's actually interesting that you brought that up. What, for those who've never heard this term, what is wellness washing?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Really, the idea of making anything and everything seem healthy.

• 7:09Abbey Sharp?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Like, literally drinks that are like thirty or forty percent juice in them be a healthier alternative, which, don't get me wrong, like, it's better than a hundred percent juice, but, but it's not healthy.

• 7:21Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:22Abbey Sharp?

  It, it's, we often call this like a health halo where, you know, you're taking one attribute of a food and extrapolating it to the rest of the food. So, for example, we saw this for many years with like organic or, um, you know,

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Bamboo.

• 7:37Abbey Sharp?

  Bamboo, yeah, vegan or gluten free. And it's like, we would see the gluten free on the package and people would automatically think, oh, that's a good choice.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  It's healthy.

• 7:45Abbey Sharp?

  It's healthy. So they were eating gluten free cookies, being like, yeah, I can eat more of these gluten free cookies because they're gluten free and therefore healthy, when really they had just as much sugar and fat and, you know, preservatives as the regular cookies did.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 8:01Abbey Sharp?

  Um, okay, speaking, I just want to talk about like virality and obviously like, I get served ads on TikTok and Instagram. You get served ads on these things all the time. When it comes to these wellness products, um, what is it like? What are some green flags and red flags in a wellness products marketing that says, okay, I, that's a good one that I want to try or that one's worth me looking more into?

• 8:25Speaker 01

  It's actually a really sad and complicated time. This, this answer is not going to be simple. At the scariest end, you're seeing AI and the ability to take creators who you respect, take their image and their voice and create a fake ad, which is a huge issue.

• 8:45Abbey Sharp?

  It's happened to me many, many times where, you know, these, these crazy weird brands are fly by night brands.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Pop up.

• 8:55Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, pop up using my, my, basically, yeah, my name and likeness. They're just AI changing my voice slightly to say the words about their product. It's horrible, horrible. And, and the platforms won't do anything about it.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  No, because they're, they literally have no one to speak to. It's, it is, so that's the thing that sucks because the true answer, where this conversation is going is a lot of the brands that are screaming the loudest, that are doing such a great job of branding and marketing from like a messaging, from a branding, from a positioning, aren't that good of products. And that's what makes this so complicated is that really the default is knowing, like knowing, being able to be educated in the space. And then two, people that you can trust. But it becomes very difficult on that second point when your likeness, your name, your voice can be stolen and you can be running ads.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  So the kind of the best way is to be informed that this industry specifically is one that's very, like, beauty and wellness are two where everyone wants to look younger. Everyone wants to look better. Everyone wants to feel healthier, live longer, be skinnier, whatever, whatever the adjective de jour is. But if you're only doing it based on ads you're being served late night, you're probably going to be duped.

• 10:17Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  So you, you just need to reinforce. And you just, I think it really comes down to research and education, which is what's so beautiful about the internet of things is. You can decide if you want to wear clean clothing or not and make clean food choices. You can decide if you want to have clean cleaning products, but you want to do Botox. Like you should be an informed consumer that is making your decisions of, because that's the other thing too, is you'll get a range of opinions. They're yours to decide and they're also yours to try.

• 10:48Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's super helpful. And, and you know, so as a, as a brand owner, we look at marketing data and we see consistently that, you know, Gen Z and millennials were all very much attracted to transparency and trustworthiness, candid storytelling. Are you seeing, maybe you can give us some examples of brands who are doing like a really good job at that? And why is that even important at this point?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  The brands that are doing it right are the brands that are messaging simply. And this is the paradox that hurts well-intentioned, well-informed business owners is that it becomes very difficult for them to communicate their art and passion in a simple way. So I'd say like Aura Ring is doing a fantastic job where they're really messaging and speaking at like a grade three, grade five level. But if you're, and that's the piece is like, if you want more information, it exists and it's there for you. But what Aura Ring does right is that it's, it, it simply satisfies my rat brain. And that's what most wellness brands or well-intended, well-intended people that really know their shit

• 11:59Speaker 01

  get wrong is that they're speaking at like a high school level when even though we're both university plus educated, when I'm scrolling online, that brain ain't on.

• 12:11Abbey Sharp?

  No, stop.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Bye. No, if it takes more calories to consume, you've lost my attention. So Aura Ring does a great job. I think Other Ship does a great job.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  The Usual Suspects do a great job. Like, I think symbiotica does a good job. You know, the question is, like, do a lot of their, are all of their products great? But from the, is there stuff? It comes back to, like, steal like an artist. Because we're also going to talk about Array, and like, there's definitely stuff that you can steal like an artist. When you were saying millennials love storytelling, that's why UGC blew up.

• 12:41Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  We were sick of Kim Kardashian posting about stuff that she wasn't using and she was getting paid to use, or not use, but post about. And UGC was like real, so like, what most business owners, when they get into this space, like, this is a revolutionary product. No one has ever seen anything like this. And therefore, everything we should do has never been done before. I'm like, no. Like, steal like an artist. Don't copyright, but adapt to your brand. Like, take a concept, figure out, analyze what is working, what posts work the best for them, what get the most comments, what gets most views? What can you learn from that? What is the hook? What is the background? Is it lo-fi? Is it shot on an iPhone? Is it hi-fi? Is it produced in a studio? What is it that you can take from that?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  And then that's where I would say, like, what to kind of redo? Because there's a ton of brands doing right, but there's also brands that you can take from that aren't. Like, what can you learn from Apple? What can you learn from the top influencers and creators that have, that have brands? Like, what, what can you learn and take to adapt to your brand?

• 13:42Abbey Sharp?

  I love that. Wow, I'm, my wheels are turning right now about like, you know, all the great content and all the bad content that I've seen on that. So let's talk about the flip side, because you just brought up Array. And you actually posted a video recently, kind of talking about feeling duped and disappointed by Array's marketing for their, with their recent clear protein product. And for those who didn't see your hot take or my kind of duet of it, do you want to kind of explain what went down there?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it, it- I'm prepared to say the things that people aren't. Yeah. Cause I branding and marketing like I'm, I'm really, there's such an art to it. It's so powerful. Branding is really everything. The brands that we wear, the brands that we buy, they dictate our lives, the stories we tell. Like it is really one of the most important industries from how humans connect and signal. But it, there's just so much money being wasted in like bullshittery that like it's not being talked about. And Array is, is, it was hard for me to do, and I use that intro because I'm,

• 14:58Speaker 01

  I have no qualms showing up and being like, that was a shitty campaign. That was dumb. That was a cash barbecue. But Array made me sad.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Because I use them a lot as a case study for business owners. And I really have praised how Sif Hater built a CPG brand by leaning into her personal brand. And that is often the hardest thing for business owners that don't have a massive capital or backing to be like, how do I enter into a saturated space? And leaning into your personhood is often the best way of doing that because you get to like, show the behind the scenes. So I've used Sif Hater and Array as really like my go-to example of when I'm speaking to small and medium-sized business owners of like, this is how a millennial broke through an extremely saturated industry and I'm so impressed by what she's doing. And I bought the product.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yep. So I bought, uh, with my own money, the Clear Protein product. I've bought a ton of products from them and I was pumped that it was coming. I was excited. I'm so on this protein train. I, I'm, I felt so informed and I'm like, I'm like, I'm just, I'm such an informed buyer. I'm buying my clear protein. I'm going to drink all this water all day with my protein in it. And I was really excited and I was sitting down with a client that I deeply respect. And she's like, haven't you seen all the comments? And I'm like, no, cause like, I'm not a comment reader. And I was blown away by, I was duped by the marketing. Yep. And I'm an informed, educated, uh, I think.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  At the, not at your level, but at, you know, at the above average level of

• 16:46Abbey Sharp?

  Of course.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Gen pop and educated consumer. And I actually, I felt really stupid and I felt really sad because I'm looking at a hundred and thirty dollar box of single serving sticks that I truly, it's like sitting on the floor of my pantry because I'm like, it, I just feel due. So let's go into it. So basically what happens is they launched this revolutionary product. So clear, clean protein has been out there, but it hasn't really been marketed within like the, I would say like elite premium healthcare space.

• 17:17Abbey Sharp?

  A hundred percent agree. I, like, I've done a lot of sampling of clear proteins and they're all from like,

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Sugary.

• 17:23Abbey Sharp?

  They're very, they're gross, to be honest. I haven't found one that I can tolerate. Um, but they also are just like really sketchy brands from like, I don't know where they're coming from. I don't know what's in them.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  There's no owner.

• 17:33Abbey Sharp?

  Right. Yeah, it's not mainstream yet.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  There's no, um, there's no one putting their name to it with whey where I'm like, I'm gonna try it.

• 17:42Abbey Sharp?

  Right. Until array.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Till array. And I was like, damn straight. So anyways, so basically the point is, is that their marketing is it, and you have to fact check me, is it thirty grams of protein they're marketing?

• 17:52Abbey Sharp?

  Fifteen grams per stick.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  So what's the, the real amount?

• 17:56Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, the real amount.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Like, what are they marketing it as? Is it fifteen grams per stick?

• 18:00Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, the first, the, yeah, the, the front of the label says fifteen grams of protein per stick of whey and collagen protein.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Protein. No, it just says, it says fifteen grams of protein per stick.

• 18:11Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Anyways. Fast forward. The number one ingredient is collagen, which is not a complete source of protein. So the digestibility score of it is like so low that you're maybe getting three grams of protein and whey doesn't taste good and whey doesn't dissolve well. So there's like, I'm being a little bit dramatic, but pretty much trace amounts of whey protein.

• 18:37Abbey Sharp?

  Correct. Uh, you know, I have to say that I also was duped by the marketing. And again, like, If anyone's going to be educated in this, it's a, it's a brand owner of a protein powder company and a dietitian. I bought it because I, again, I'm on the hunt for a good, clear protein, um, just personally, but also just, you know, for market research. And because the front of label packaging-

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 19:01Abbey Sharp?

  It's beautiful. All their marketing says whey and collagen, whey and collagen. It always lists whey first, which makes you feel like, okay, this is mainly whey protein. And maybe there's like, you know, maybe five grams of, of, of collagen to get a clinical dose of collagen or whatever. And when I turned it around to look closely at the nutrition label, it actually said collagen first. And for those who don't know, um, ingredients are listed on labels in terms of weight, which is the highest in weight. So if collagen comes first, it means there's more collagen than whey. That was my first red flag because I was like, hmm, I wonder how much whey is actually in this. And when you said it, I had a member of my team reach out to them and ask, okay, how much is actually collagen?

• 19:46Abbey Sharp?

  How much is whey? And they were told in the email, this is a collagen supplement fortified with whey, which like you said, could mean there is a sprinkle of whey in there.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Literally like-

• 20:00Abbey Sharp?

  Literally, just exactly like a pinch. I could like whey could fart on it and they could say that it has whey. Um, and so, and that makes sense to me because it weighs way more expensive than collagen.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Doesn't-

• 20:13Abbey Sharp?

  Doesn't dissolve nicely.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Doesn't taste good.

• 20:15Abbey Sharp?

  Correct.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  And it's, but it's so, uh, it's, it speaks to like the disappointment of the industry that there really is no regulations. All of that stuff is obvious. You know, like it's obvious how sketchy the industry is. To me, the larger issue with branding at present is this idea of like perpetual capitalism, that businesses have to always have bigger quarters. And you can tell that they are gunning towards evaluation to IPO because they're losing the integrity of their brand and they're prepared to sell out their lists and their weight for a dollar. That isn't the art of branding. And to me, why it makes

• 20:58Speaker 01

  me sad is that was an intentional decision that the brand made. This isn't a, this wasn't a PR mistake. And it becomes actually complicated to talk about like, what should they have done? Because really- I don't trust them.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  And for them to have on their video, a beautiful husband and wife couple that have launched this small business, talking about they wanted to enter into the protein space, but do it differently. It's all a lie. And it's, business owners need to be careful of doing that because we are going into a down economy. We are, we are in a time of AI is effing horrifying. And we are seeking brands that have trust and credibility. And we're moving away from this guise of like, we're all wearing like polyester and like it's, it speaks to like the larger issue and that brand doesn't have legs. It's not going to be around.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  And it, I just, it's almost like I don't even want to give them more airtime because they intentionally made a decision that is like the worst thing they should have done for their brand when they were doing so many things right. And it makes me sad.

• 22:23Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah. I, and that's not their first offense. It's kind of been a series of disappointments from my perspective, like the creatine gummies saying, you know, 90 gummies, there's five grams of creatine. It's not until you look very, very carefully at this like little area on the website that you see that you need four gummies to get those five grams of creatine, which means you've got a supplement that costs five times what it should. And then calling their, their fat burning supplement, Fozempic was infuriating to me to, to insinuate that a supplement could be as, as effective as a powerful pharmaceutical like Fozempic. Exactly.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, like they rewires the protein.

• 23:01Abbey Sharp?

  Right. It's just such deceptive marketing. And I don't want to only throw like ARA under the bus because there's so many brands who are making these kinds of mistakes.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  I do think it's different.

• 23:11Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  I do think Fozempic is different than going to market with 15 grams of protein when there's like, it's like a one fifth digestive.

• 23:24Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, it's like, there'll be three to five grams max essentially in terms of what you can utilize for muscle protein synthesis. Because like you said, collagen is just so poorly bioavailable.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  It's just, it's just like, to me, that's a different box because like Fozempic, if you're looking for a natural solution to a pharmaceutical drug, like it.

• 23:42Abbey Sharp?

  It's a cute word.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:43Abbey Sharp?

  I guess.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  It's it's cute, but it's also like it's you're you're you're choosing to not go with the the powerful thing that works. It's like saying like fake Adderall, like the whole point is like it it's releasing chemicals in your brain to like it to stop you from eating. It's like so to call it the fake Ozempic is is in the the territory of I respect that from a marketing ploy than actually truly deceiving people, saying that there's something there that it is not.

• 24:13Abbey Sharp?

  Intentionally deceptive.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  And that to me is like a box that the average person listening to this, your problem, if you're a business owner, if you're wanting to launch a business, is and that's the issue is that the spectrum is so large that people are aren't prepared to say like the honest things because they're so deep in their work, like being a dietitian, like there's things that are like gray to say like they're not wrong, they're not right, that you won't do that could sacrifice the simplicity of that rap brand and that simple message to the extreme of like full-blown lying on a package. And that's the issue that I face. It's like I need to move the average business owner like 15% into the gray zone in order for you to be super effective. But then the people who are like that operate in the like.

• 24:58Abbey Sharp?

  Wild West.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  In the absolute wild west.

• 25:01Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Are the ones that ruin it for everyone because your brain goes to like you're in your brain, that association is so close, even though in reality, it's it's so far apart. Does that make sense?

• 25:12Abbey Sharp?

  Hundred percent. Yeah. And and that's why I always say, you know, as a dietitian myself, like, I can't fight magic. Like, you know, when I'm up against all these influencers who are making these extraordinary sensationalized claims and, you know, you know, statements they're trying to sell you witchcraft, basically, like, I can't fight that. I can't, I'm never going to be able to, you know, go up against that with as a fair fight because I'm not going to be able to to to say something that is as dishonest as that or dishonest at all.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Like the castor oil, like.

• 25:49Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Patches, like, no, it's like, it's like, really? Like, do we need to have a conversation on this? But but that's the thing that makes me sad is that like I. I didn't expect. It's like, you know, it's like when you get duped by these like scammy telephone calls, you're like, I feel too smart for this, but, but it, but it happened and it's, I, it's not cool.

• 26:10Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah. I'm, I'm glad you brought it up. And so you mentioned, you just briefly said, like, I don't even know what they would have done. So, but I'm curious, like whether it's a Ray or, or any other company, like when you're in a PR crisis like that, like what should a Ray have done or any other brand in that situation when people were coming out in the comments being like, oh, this is not 15 grams of protein. What, how do you come back from that? Or like, did they, what do you do? Do people care? Should people care? Right. They're just like, well, hopefully people won't notice.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  That's the stance they took. You know, it's, it's complicated because I'm not privy to the decisions that happen behind the scenes. So, strategy is just so tied to the business's goals. And it's so abundantly clear to me that the goal is increasing subscriptions, you know, to get a stock, to, to IPO. And Skims is doing the same thing. Skims is gonna IPO. So, like, I, I'm now getting good enough to like, read the signs. So, it's hard for me to, to do that because by kind of, by doing the right thing, you're walking into territory of, you know, there's a lot of people that they can dupe because it's become this like, it's almost like a road. You

• 27:29Speaker 01

  know, it's just like this it cool girl, pretty girl brand, you know, where it's like, I, I, you know, I feel good ripping open a $7 bag at, you know, while I'm out drinking with my girlfriends in university. And there's this discretionary income where there's like, there's, there's no ramification to your decision-making. It's a, it's a treat. I think what they, I think what they should have done, notwithstanding the reality that they're probably IPO-ing, they are operating under, you know, they, they want out of their company. They're not looking to build longevity in their brand. They should have had a discussion as to here's why we chose this formulation. Here's why we chose collagen over way.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  I think having a conversation, talking about, you know, it it's just, it's so tough because you literally are putting 15 grams on the bag and that's a lie. You don't like, it's just, it's, I just, I wouldn't do it. Yeah. But I also feel like she's really heavily retreated. Um, I think that their next, I would be really interested to see, I get data from a company called Particle. Have you heard of Particle? No. Um, and Particle is a really cool brand that it allows you to basically go in and see all of the sales off of other people's Shopify websites. And you can track the data actually at like a, at a pretty like

• 28:54Speaker 01

  cool level, like it's, you can see like by SKU, like what's their most successful SKUs, like sales to date, sales by month. You have to have a certain threshold of sales. So like, if it's like, you know, your cousin's Shopify that she launched a week ago, it, you know, it has to be like a legit brand. But my interest is tracking where, how their next few launches start to track because there's a tipping point to success and to failure. And that's what most people miss is that they, they look for proverbial like Bud Light or Cracker Barrel moments and those happen very rarely. It's often, I call it brand death by a thousand cuts. You start to make a series of wrong decisions that slowly starts to take the brand off track.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  And by the time the brand can really realize it at a measurable level, it's going to cost way too much time, money and effort to bring the brand back. And I think that that was one of their, like a huge gash over a cut that will.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Create further ramifications down the line that I anticipate and hope because I feel like it should have ramifications that will derail the brand.

• 30:06Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, yeah, that's very helpful. I want to touch on influencer marketing for a moment because I mean, we were just talking about like, you know, the movement away from like mega influencer marketing and things like that. But obviously, working with influencers or content creators, it really can make or break your brand campaign, just depending on how that goes. Any examples of what to do and what not to do in 2025? Because this is always changing.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  It is always changing. It also, so it's influencers play a role in the larger funnel. It depends how much money you have, what your goals are. And I think that's a big thing is a lot of this stuff, it comes across as like table stakes or boxes to check when you can have very different goals and be in a very different place financially. So you don't have to have influencers to be successful. You should have a person of influence, whether that's yourself as a founder and you lean into thoughtful thought leadership, whether you use customers that are honest and truthful and can, it comes down to like, who are your shared values in your customers? Like, what do they care about? What do they look to?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  If you're launching and starting out, you do not need a macro influencer. You don't need a celebrity. In fact, even like UGC, like if you just get five friends of yours to like record videos and you, you don't need to pay for a platform like Billa or a platform like Skepers.

• 31:34Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, it's changed so much.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  So much.

• 31:36Abbey Sharp?

  10 years, yeah. And from my, I kind of occupy this interesting space because I'm a brand owner myself, but I also have spent the last 15 years working with brands as a content creator.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 31:48Abbey Sharp?

  And, you know, back to that, that piece that we were talking about earlier about the importance of trust and transparency. It's like the biggest mistake that I have seen, at least from my perspective, is just these dishonest influencer campaigns where.

• 32:05Abbey Sharp?

  You know, I can't tell you how many times that brands have said to me, we don't want you to disclose. We don't want you to put the hashtag AD in there. We don't want anyone to know that this is an ad. And so from my, you know, I'm, I'm like, uh, no, this is FTC, you know, rules. This is my college rules. This is, this is not good for anyone. It's not good for my brand to be dishonest about this. And it's certainly not good for the, the, the brand itself to be coming across as like paying off celebrities or influencers without actually having any, you know, disclosure there. So, um, I, I think that it's, it's an interesting dichotomy because at, on the one hand,

• 32:47Abbey Sharp?

  you know, millennials and Gen Z are tired of seeing quote unquote ads, but they're still looking for that honesty and that transparency.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  The thing that's interesting though, on the influencer front is that there's, there's a lot of delusion. Like people have to really understand the role that it plays and it's, and, and what is that worth to your brand? Because if, at the end of the day, you're, you're constantly fighting for a position. And one of my favorite books I recommend business owners to read is called Play Bigger. And the idea is like, you shouldn't go into a market unless you could be the category king, which is owning 76% because otherwise you exist in that mushy middle. And that's what Target's kind of facing right now is like, there's no clear position for the brand. And people don't know where to place it. And then because you're in the mushy middle, it's the worst place to be because you've done,

• 33:36Speaker 01

  done all of this credibility of all of this money, but you can't own a place in the market. So the issue with influencers is that influencers give your brand credibility. They, they, they hold a real estate in people's minds so that you're considered. So to go back to the point on like all the sketchy clear protein brands, they don't hold real estate in my mind. There's no brand weight. So a lot of what influencers do is like, yes, they can sell, but there's more of a randomness to where someone is in the funnel. So you have to really understand the consumer funnel, right? Awareness, consideration, um, intention and then con- and conversion. And that's why when I create a controversial video, like, so clear protein actually wasn't an awareness piece.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Like the video I did recently was like Happy Gilmore too. That one is right now is like half a million. And it's like everyone commenting on it is like, you're an idiot. That's the best movie ever. Oh, it was so bad. It's like construction workers in Iowa. I'm like, and you're not my customers. No. Oh, this is a great response. But like the clear protein is actually more of like a middle of the funnel because you have to like be more of like a business owner that like understands what I'm like. It's not actually like a top of funnel piece of content. So the point is, is that influencers, they can be the difference if you were already considering part and you're already in the funnel. But more often than not, it reinforces trust and credibility, which gives your, which gives your brand a brand, which moves you through those three different levels.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  And one of the things that we were just talking about is the rules changing in the United States and enforcing influencers to disclose the hashtag ad. And the reason why that happened was because consumers were being duped. Mm hmm. It was a huge issue. Huge. But it's like kind of one of those like laws that like every few years, you know, some, it's always on political cycles. Yep. Somebody comes in and they crack down and someone is the sacrificial lamb. And right now it's actually is it's a class action ALO lawsuit. Oh, interesting. And there's, there's two lawsuits that are happening right now.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  The first one is basically ALO's like making all of these like banner ads and like social ads, saying that there's a sale and the sale is ending in 24 hours. But there like really wasn't a sale, like it's just their clearance items. So like they're just generating all this traffic and urgency and desire. And the question is, you know, like how many people are harmed in that? But because there's so much digital proof, because you can like take screenshots, there's a huge class action lawsuit on that. So that's number one.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  But number two is ALO is notorious for really having like the most money to buy the like, the it people. So like Kendall Jenner wearing her products or like all of Victoria's Secret Angels and Rosie Huntington included, they're all paid and Phillip and my, my co-host on my podcast, Art of the Brand, we got into like actually a full-blown discussion on this because like, he comes from the camp as like a Gen X of like, that's wrong, that's bad, you know, they should be punished. And he's a lawyer as well. So like he was reading the law really black and white. And I'm like, I hear you. I think that FTC is here for a good reason and I think that a lot of like, we need it because people are like buying medication that like- Right. Doesn't work. A hundred percent.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  But ALO Yoga has, has become what it's become because of who is paid to wear their product. And there's sometimes there's this, I think, and ALO is the example of this now, this is not a case, a case you can make in law, like they broke the law, but it's an interesting conversation. Is that they, we, we have a mutual contract that we've both bought into the delusion. That Rosie Huntington Whiteley is- She loves her ALO. She loves her ALO and always like curated five post swipe throughs. It's obvious that she's paid. It's obvious that Kendall Jenner is like in these like high fidelity, like on the tennis

• 37:52Speaker 01

  court shot, you know, like this, wearing her- That was just like paparazzi taking those photos, like- Totally natural. Totally. And it's like, it's, it's the, it's the, it's that mutual contract of delusion that we bought into and it's why ALO is a leading lifestyle fitness brand because- They have those names and like that's why Road was sold for a billion dollars is that girls could spend fifty to a hundred dollars and they could buy into the belief that they will look like Hailey Bieber. And that's a big part of aspirational branding and marketing. This isn't a strategy for everyone, but it is a strategy for mediocre at best, you know, spandex activewear.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  That's not that different from Lululemon, but it has a different logo slapped on it. And that's how you differentiate to get out of that mushy middle when you have money. And that's like it. So that's a different strategy, but I thought that was an interesting.

• 38:48Abbey Sharp?

  Super, super interesting. And I just want to kind of, we've had so many great conversations and I didn't tell you I was going to do this, but for those who don't know, I also own a supplement company, a wellness company called New Theory. We sent you some products.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Got my bra with me.

• 39:06Abbey Sharp?

  I love it. I love the represent. Okay, so if I could get some free branding advice, what could we be doing better? What could, what are we doing well? If anything, what can we improve on? I'm sure there's a lot of things because we are really just fumbling through with just me and my co-founder, just learning what to do. But I would love to kind of, any of your thoughts on, on what we should be focusing on?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  I haven't seen any ads.

• 39:36Abbey Sharp?

  Okay.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  I haven't seen, nothing has come across my, nothing truly to date. I am really your target customer.

• 39:44Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  And I haven't seen anything since you launched.

• 39:48Abbey Sharp?

  Okay.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  And the only reason why I'd seen stuff since I launched is because I have Ginger and I have some other people on my socials that like I saw the content, but I haven't seen anything come across my, my table of like, this is a brand for me to consider. And I find the protein industry is, it's the, it's the best because it lacks the most loyalty. Like people aren't, aren't often loyal to a, to a protein brand. But it also makes it, it makes it difficult for me to decide why to choose when there's so many of them. So the advice that I would give you is to simplify the message and to think of like, really, one of the books I recommend is called Microscripts.

• 40:32Abbey Sharp?

  Okay.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  And you should really develop your microscript. It's by Bill Shley. Microscripts is a great book because it talks about like, you need to develop a microscript. And a microscript is in a tagline. A microscript is a three to five word sentence that is a descriptor to your brand. So Bounty, the quicker picker upper is a microscript. Buckley's, it tastes awful, but it works, is a microscript.

• 40:56Abbey Sharp?

  Got it.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  So it's giving you something that actually like, it's more than a tagline. It's something that gives people the permission to buy an idea to buy into, which is also like the Donald Miller, how to build a story brand. To me, your positioning really speaks to a, you're definitely millennial skewed. There's no Gen Z to it. It really says to me like, I'm a mom, taking my protein consumption seriously. I think it more skews to your audience.

• 41:22Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  So I would be really going through your comments, your language, your feedback, and using your customer's language, your customer's pain point, and then basically rebuilding a marketing strategy from that. And that's what most people miss is that anything you do in marketing and branding, it should only be focused on the problems your customer has. Everything you do is giving that, they are the hero.

• 41:47Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  You are the guide. How can you position what this is to guide them on what their, what their issues are? So if yours is combating, like, I know dairy is a big thing.

• 41:57Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, well, it's really a kind of a gut friendly line. So because both my, my business partner and I have IBS and we were really, had a loss for supplements that actually weren't irritating to our guts and causing bloating. So that's really our focus. But, but yeah.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Stop bloating.

• 42:13Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Like, stop bloating, but like have a photo of like a woman on the hockey rink.

• 42:16Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Like have a, like, it's like, talk about where they're embarrassed, right? Like, stop cutting meals, right? Like, we know how busy it is. You know, like, you need to like, what are their issues? And then I'd be just be creating marketing campaigns purely based on that. But then there's the other thing too, is have no ego, right? Like, identify on a whiteboard.

• 42:36Abbey Sharp?

  Fifteen angles.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Utilize ChatGPT.

• 42:39Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Right?

• 42:40Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Fifteen angles. Develop fifteen and test them. Like, we're, we just relaunched my masterclass because I launched a, a social media branding masterclass. And I am the queen of like, get paid to try. You know, like, I've got no ego on failing because it's, it's worked for me so far. You know, like, just keep going, just keep going. I'm from Scarborough, just keep going. So, so my point is, like, I literally just launched of like the same ad. We do like eighteen different versions of the text above and below.

• 43:10Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  And like, we'll test them out. And like, two of them will work. We cut the rest. The two of them work. Okay, what, based on that, how could I keep iterating it? So that's what I would say to you is like, your packaging is fantastic. The product is amazing. I love the taste of it. I need to try the, the digestive bloating pills or staring at me on my desk. Because I've been eating so much protein, I actually really haven't been.

• 43:29Abbey Sharp?

  Well, that's bloated. That's because our protein also has anti-bloated probiotics and it's helpful for that.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  It's amazing to not be bloated. Think about how does it feel to not be bloated?

• 43:38Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Like, queen of the world.

• 43:40Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Like, I could tackle anything if I'm not bloated. Like, I'm ready to go. Like, bloating makes you feel gross.

• 43:47Abbey Sharp?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Makes you feel like down on yourself. You're like, kind of, you're like, thinking about yourself. Your shoulders go in. Think about like, showing the women bloated, not bloated. Like, those are the things to touch on. And it's like, our brain overcomplicates. Like, we overcomplicate it.

• 44:03Abbey Sharp?

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  But like, most people, just, they will, they're prepared to spend a hundred dollars to get something that tastes way, but you have to speak to their like, soul, their core, their problem.

• 44:16Abbey Sharp?

  Hmm, this is so helpful. I can just, I can hear my, my co-founder Ginger. She's just like, oh, my God, that was so amazing. That was amazing. So I'm so, so grateful that you were able to come out and chat with me. We had a blast. We will do it again. Hopefully, I'll see you at the next family party. Um, and, um, do you want to let us, let everyone know where they can find all your amazing content?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yes, I, so my name is Camille Moore. That's like where you can get most of like the branding, social content. All of the handles are my name. The podcast is called Art of the Brand. Um, that's where we break down every week.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Branding stuff, small business advice. My heart is with the small business owner. I think it's for most people who own businesses, they really love case studies. So I use the bigger businesses as case studies to help smaller businesses break it down for what they can learn from it.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  My agency is called Third Eye Insights, which is a strategic branding agency. We see things that people don't. And lastly, I have an amazing social media masterclass that it's like, it kind of is below to say even it's social media. Because like to do socials, right? You actually have a really good brand foundation. So my whole thing is like, people, people think about the outcome. They don't think about the foundation. So if you're struggling with your message, with your positioning, and this course is really for you because it breaks down my signature approach. But, but more than that, I'm in a really cool spot because I get to work with really like the biggest brands in the world.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  But then also small businesses because like, I love the joy of life more than I love a dollar. Oh, you like them. You know, we balance both. We keep the lights on with the big brands, but like I keep my heart in place with the small businesses. But almost every single time, like nine out of 10, these big brands reach out to me and they think they have a social problem. It's always a brand problem. So if you're struggling with socials, it's because you're struggling with your brand. And this is even for myself, this is like a good wrap up point if you're still listening. I have to keep going through this even myself, the level that I do it. Cause when I, my engagement starts petering off and it's not hitting and I'm putting so much, we put so much time and effort into creating content. It's often because I've lost sight of what my audience is struggling with.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  And it's so easy to chuck along and for me to hear things, but for me to put it through a perspective that I care about versus what they care about. So this is a great way to like recompense. So really that is, and I post multiple times per day to give you value. So that is my goal. Follow me. It was just so much fun.

• 46:56Abbey Sharp?

  Okay, this was really so helpful for me personally. But also, I do hope it was really insightful for you if you're looking to learn to be more savvy wellness content and product consumers. You know, part of the reason why I wanted to start my own wellness line was because it was such a hotbed for misleading marketing and distrustful products. Largely because, as Camille said, this industry is so unregulated. The competition is high. People are always looking for a fast, dramatic fix. And sensationalism, even if it's not always grounded in actual truth, tends to sell pretty well. But the next time you are moved by marketing online to buy a new supplement,

• 47:41Abbey Sharp?

  an influencer's wellness program, or a new healthy snack, I want you to ask yourself if they're using any of these three deceptive tactics before you buy. The first is pseudo-scientific buzzwords. Think about terms like cellular detoxification, or adrenal reset, or quantum healing. They sound super-science-y, but without any clinical definition or measurable criteria to back them up, they are a massive red flag. Number two is borrowed legitimacy. A lot of brands will try to piggyback on legitimate experts and institutions without full transparency of their involvement.

• 48:24Abbey Sharp?

  For example, calling a product "doctor-formulated" lends itself immediate legitimacy. But a term like that could mean virtually nothing without further clarification. Was the doctor actually in the lab testing the formulation? Or did they just make an appearance on a conference call after the fact? Does the doctor work in a relevant area of practice? Or like, are they a radiologist trying to sell skincare? And is the "doctor" even a medical doctor at all? Or are they a chiropractor or have a PhD in astrology? Transparency of the details makes a massive difference here.

• 49:10Abbey Sharp?

  And number three, are they engaging in dishonest testimonial abuse? In an age of AI, it is becoming increasingly challenging to weed out what is real and what is fake. But if a brand is using obviously altered before and after photos with filters and editing and manipulated timelines, if you are seeing dozens of glowing reviews the moment a product is launched, or if you're seeing obvious paid influencer testimonials without disclosure, it is a red flag that they are likely being dishonest in other aspects of their business as well.

• 49:48Abbey Sharp?

  Trying to separate a good product from good marketing often feels like it requires FBI-like investigative skills. So don't feel bad if you've fallen victim to scam artists with broken promises more than once. This is literally my job, and even I get duped by good wellness product marketing and influencer campaigns. But hopefully this episode gave you a little bit of food for thought on how to interpret the ads that you see in your feed. Thank you again to Camille Moore for helping me bite back against misinformation and diet culture. A quick reminder to please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and again, leave me a five star review if you're enjoying the podcast.

• 50:33Abbey Sharp?

  But that's all for me today. Signing off with Science and SaaS, I'm Abby Sharp. Thanks for listening.

• 50:51Speaker 00

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