Fuelling for Running & Endurance Sports: Everything Diet Culture Got Wrong with Kylee Van Horn and Zoe Rom

Here’s a run down of what we discussed in today’s episode: Biggest Nutrition Mistakes Runners Make Why Carbs Are Essential for Endurance Running Carb Loading: How to Do It Properly Sugar & Running: Fuel vs Fear When to Use Gels and Sports Fuel Fiber Timing: Avoiding GI Issues While Running Protein Needs for Runners (and Timing It Right) What a Day of Eating for Runners Looks Like Fasted vs Fed Running: What’s Best? When “Healthy” Running Becomes Unhealthy Check in with today’s amazing guests: Kylee Van Horn & Zoë Rom Podcast: Your Diet Sucks Kylee Van Horn Website: https://flynutrition.org/about Instagram: instagram.com/flynutrition3 Book: Practical Fueling for Endurance Athletes: Your Nutrition Guide for Optimal Performance Zoë Rom Website: zoerom.com Book: Becoming A Sustainable Runner Disclaimer: The content in this episode is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is never a substitute for medical advice. If you’re struggling with with your mental or physical health, please work one on one with a health care provider. If you have heard yourself in our discussion today, and are looking for support, contact the free NEDIC helpline at 1-866-NEDIC-20 or go to eatingdisorderhope.com. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✨ Reach Your Weight & Health Goals — Without Dieting! Pre-order The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, Abbey’s revolutionary additive approach to eating well. Learn how to boost satiety, stabilize blood sugars, reduce disease risk, and improve your relationship with food — all while getting the best nutrient bang for your caloric buck. With 400+ research citations, cheat sheets, evidence-based actionable tips, meal plans, and adaptable recipes, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method is the only nutrition bible you’ll ever need. 👉 Pre-order today! 🛒 Where to Purchase: Amazon Barnes & Noble Amazon Kindle Apple Books Google Play Kobo Apple Books (Audiobook) Audible abbeyskitchen.com/hunger-crushing-combo • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✉️ Subscribe to My Newsletters: Abbey’s Kitchen Newsletter 📘 Check out my FREE E-Books: Hunger Crushing Combo™ E-Book Protein 101 E-Book 👋 Follow me! Instagram: @abbeyskitchen TikTok: @abbeyskitchen YouTube: @AbbeysKitchen Blog: abbeyskitchen.com Book: The Mindful Glow Cookbook • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen — and leave us a review! It really helps support the show ❤️ 💬 If you liked this podcast, please like, follow, and leave a review — and let me know who you’d love to hear about next! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐ ⭐ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  The reason that you see so many people gravitating towards the fasted training or dipping breakfast is because we like the story that it kicks into gear, some obscure scientific process that you can only access if you have the willpower and discipline. And that is not how the body works. And there are going to be certain parts of the population that are going to suffer.

• 0:52Abbey Sharp?

  Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abbey Sharp, where I dismantle diet culture rules, call out the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good. Today's guests, dietitian Kylee Van Horn and writer Zoe Rahm, are avid runners, coaches, and the hosts of one of my favorite podcasts, Your Diet Sucks. If you've ever heard me talk about my tragic pelvic floor, you maybe know that running and I aren't exactly BFFs. So I am absolutely thrilled to have some pros in today to help me unpack all of the myths, misconceptions, and the sneaky diet culture narratives

• 1:37Abbey Sharp?

  that show up in endurance sports. So whether you're training for your first marathon or just trying to incorporate a little extra time on the treadmill to help you get in some movement, this episode is going to be key. If you already have a copy of my brand new book, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, you maybe have seen that I've got a whole chapter on how to apply the method for endurance training, sports, and goals. And if you haven't, friends, please get at it. This book is now available in stores. And online in hard copy, digital and audiobook varieties. And I don't know if you've heard, but it is a best seller and has been trailing the one and only Oprah

• 2:21Abbey Sharp?

  in the number two slot for weeks, which is honestly wild to me. So if you want to support keeping me there, or perhaps maybe, I don't know, beating her, that would be wild. But I would love if you would check out the links in the show notes for where you can order. And if you already have a copy, a five star review on Amazon or Goodreads, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. I mean, heck, anywhere. Like if you want to spend a whole day just writing me a bunch of lovely reviews, I would love that. Just kidding. I mean, a minute out of your day is more than enough. All right, folks, I am very excited to get into it. Let's do it.

• 3:03Abbey Sharp?

  All right, ladies, I am so excited to chat with you guys. I love your podcast. So I'm very excited to have you on today. So thank you so much for joining me.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  So pumped to be here. Thanks for having us.

• 3:15Abbey Sharp?

  So I have a lot of questions to ask you because unfortunately, you know, diet culture is just so loud that it feels like a lot of the most prominent messages that we see making the rounds are kind of like opposite to what we might suggest for, you know, endurance athletes or recreational runners. So I have to first kind of like ask to set the stage. What is the biggest myth or misconception or mistake that you see runners making? Because they have been misled by diet culture messages for the masses.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  The biggest thing I see, and Kylie will have a different perspective as someone that works one on one with athletes. But I think the idea of a racing weight in general, or thinking that weight loss is the best way to optimize performance. So often people really over index on it because it's easy to see, it's easy to measure. It feels pretty simple, but it's just one of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of factors that goes into athletic performance. But because many of us grew up swimming in the water, that is American diet culture. It's the thing that so many folks tend to gravitate. Towards is like, man, I'm not running as fast as I want. I'm not getting the, you know, Boston qualifying time or I'm not able to finish ultras in the time I want. And the number one thing between me and my next best performance is weight.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Whereas it's just one of many, many factors. And in fact, when you look at the evidence, it's pretty much impossible to both optimize performance and lose weight at the same time. Because inherently, if you're functioning in a caloric restriction, your body doesn't have the resources that it needs to adapt to the training stimulus you're giving it. So even though many of us were sort of raised to believe that exercise is the best way to lose weight, training is not a great way to lose weight. And these things sort of exist in conflict with one another, which sits counter to the narrative. I think a lot of us were fed as younger people.

• 5:08Abbey Sharp?

  No, absolutely. And I kind of want to talk about carbs because this is, this is also really important. Because unfortunately, like we still live in this anti-carb era, thanks to this, you know, ongoing popularity of keto and like carnivore diets now. And I'm, I'm sure there are a lot of folks who, you know, run for fun or enjoyment. But like you said, like, you know, a lot of people think about running as a form of kind of weight management. Um, and that's where a lot of this low carb messaging tends to come in. So can you kind of talk about how important carbs are for endurance sports?

• 5:40Speaker 03

  So carbohydrates are, I would say, the preferred source of energy production for our cells when we're out and going and exercising. And I think the biggest thing I see in practice is people will justify that just because they're going out for a run and they don't consider themselves an athlete, that they don't need those carbohydrates for energy production. They're like, I have enough resources on my body to kind of power myself through. And, and they start doing like a low carb diet. And down the line is where we start to see like physiological changes. So I oftentimes will see like reduced down thyroid hormone production.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  In general, just hormones getting out of whack. People end up With bone stress injuries. So a lot of things that people I don't think think about initially end up affecting them like as they get it into the low carb kind of keto lifestyle and our training. And how do I, I feel like I have conversation at least once a day with client that's like just explaining to them that even if they don't consider themselves an athlete, they still need to have carbohydrates to help them like run the body properly and help the body feel safe.

• 7:02Abbey Sharp?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Your metabolism tends to not care if you have imposter syndrome or hangups around your own athletic performance. It's still going to be a metabolism.

• 7:10Abbey Sharp?

  Yes. Oh, I love that. Absolutely. You know, and I talk about this in detail. I've got a whole endurance exercise chapter in my new book, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method. And you know, best practice could be, you know, 45 to 65% of total calories from carbs. And that could be as much as like 600 grams of carbs for, you know, 135 pound woman. Which again, when we're stuck in this low carb, like, you know, cutting carbs as low as possible, that seems outrageous for people. And yet I see folks too scared to eat a whole banana because diet culture has taught us that a whole banana is quote, quote, too much carbs.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  I think the interesting thing too, people will say, you know, I love carbs. I have no problems with them. And then we start chatting and it's like, we talk about how many grams of carbs they need or like just visual portions or something. And they're like, wait, I don't need that much. Like, there's no way I need that much. And then it's kind of like this fear kicks in. So it starts as like, I love carbs. Then they learn how much they need to support their training. And they're like, wait, maybe I don't love carbs as much as I, as I thought. Or I'm a little nervous to like actually eat what I need.

• 8:19Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, there's definitely so much unlearning that has to be done here. And I think, you know, often when we think about carbs and running, a lot of folks' minds go to this concept of kind of carb loading. And like, they think of having this mountain of noodles, like right the night before a marathon to fill our glycogen stores so that we don't hit a wall in the middle of the run. First of all, what should optimized carb loading look like? Like, how much are we talking about? And like, what kind of foods do you typically recommend?

• 8:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I call it a carb increase. I feel like some people get intimidated by the word carb load and their brain goes to like 10 plates of pasta from like when they were in high school before a cross-country meet or something. So yeah, I try to call it an increase. And then we look at a gradual increase like in the couple of days before an actual event. And I usually say, depending on what event someone's doing, that's how I help them determine what kind of carb increase they're going to do. So if it's a shorter event, like half marathon or less, they might do a one to two day carb increase. If it's a marathon, 50K, longer, maybe a three day carb increase.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  I do throw out numbers for people just so that they can kind of get a sense of where they need to be. And then oftentimes I will pair that with a visual for them. So seven to 12 grams per kilogram body weight for carbs. That can range, again, depending on body frame size, typically between like 400 and 700 grams of carbs, which might, when we look at like, I don't know, I use the example of like cups of rice or cups of cereal, that could be like 10 to 16 cups of carbohydrate. And people start to get a little freaked out by that. But we tend to talk then about like, oh, you know, liquid carbohydrates could be a really good source

• 10:11Speaker 03

  for you to be able to get in enough carbohydrate for your carb increase, gummy candy, fun cereals, things also mixing in maybe like some savory pretzels, pretzels, et cetera. People will say like, I got so sick of sweets when I was doing my carb increase. So, so trying to kind of like parse through like, oh, what are some like things I would be excited about to have in my carb increase? And it might not be the same thing that you're eating every day, like on a daily basis. But, you know, trying to think more in the way of like keeping the fiber low, having some like just things that you're excited about so that you don't get sick of those things. And then I also give the tip of like thinking about where your race is going to be and what your lodging situation is going to be like. So.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  You know, if you're traveling, thinking about what I could get in the airport, when I'm at my like hotel or my Airbnb, like, are there grocery stores around? What can I access? Do I need to bring anything from home? So really trying to think about that ahead of the target event that someone's doing. And then even going as far as like practicing singular days of that before key long runs to kind of help see what it feels like to do a carb increase. And then can also bonus feel good on the long run day.

• 11:29Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 11:42Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, I want to talk more about sugar. Because again, you know, we've just seen this growing interest in blood sugar management, not just for folks with diabetes or insulin resistance, but for healthy folks wearing, you know, CGMs to track their blood sugars and swearing off all carbs because it can quote unquote spike blood sugars. How does this fear of sugar persist even in a sport that literally runs on glucose?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  And I feel like we see so many folks try to, A, think that glucose and fructose are meaningfully different, other than that like fructose is processed in the liver and will start to fuel their, try to fuel exercise entirely with fruit. Because if it comes from a fruit inherently, it must be more pure, more morally okay, better for you, healthier for you, because it's a fruit. Whereas like, no, your body kind of doesn't really care. Your liver cares because it has to do a little more homework. But, you know, that's sort of beside the point. And I think that people try to get fuel from alternative sources. But glucose is glucose and that's what your body needs. And so people are sort of carrying this baggage of inherently thinking that sugar is bad or the narrative that like sugar is addictive.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  So they try to restrict it, which is actually what makes that even more magnetic or sticky for people because they don't allow themselves to have access for it. And that changes their whole psychological experience of, of different. Foods. And so, so often it's just like trying to restrict things in this attempt to control where their fuel comes from, trying to get it from these like obscure sources or these just like less preferred sources, like trying to fuel a marathon entirely off of avocados and dates, because that's, that's like morally superior, because it doesn't come out of the package, rather than just getting really specific and intentional and asking like individually, what are my needs? What are the needs of my event? And what actually works better for me?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Rather than like, what did some influencer tell me is, is better? Or like, what did I read in some like BS clean eating cookbook is better for me?

• 13:45Speaker 03

  I'll even ask people like, you know, so why do you think that dates are better? Like, what, what are they doing for you during exercise? And just like getting them to answer the question? Because it's similar with like, the fear of weight gain, I think, when, when I'm chatting with people, they'll be, they'll say like, I'm just so hesitant to do this or that, or make these changes. And then you start asking why, a lot of times gets down to the fear of weight gain, or the fear of, um, I heard this thing, uh, that sugar was bad, and it's going to cause some kind of health condition or something. And so helping them like, answer their own question, sometimes it's actually a

• 14:27Speaker 03

  really effective way to, to get the kind of point across, or get to the bottom of what's going on.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  I also think the like fixation, I'll say, with like, the blood sugar control. And like, that's not to say that's something that no one should take into consideration, obviously, amount of individual variability, and that might be something that some folks want to keep an eye trained on. However, it's kind of this bizarre attempt to make something pretty, like a normal bodily process, to render it even more sciency, and to slap a device on it, and then to make a chart out of it. And that's a totally a scientific understanding of like, the difference in how your blood sugar operates when you're at rest versus during exercise. And people are applying these, not wrong principles about how blood sugar works and how it responds to food at rest.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  They're applying that same thing to exercise, which the process is significantly meaningfully different. And so it becomes this sort of fear mongering of like trying to avoid these dips and these spikes, decontextualizing that dips and spikes are a normal part of human processes. Right? And that's not to say that we should always ignore them in every scenario and that it's never helpful to look at, but extrapolating from like extrapolating how you should fuel during a marathon from something that someone said on Instagram about, you know, eating Sour Patch Kids on your couch is just not a correct way to inform your hydration and or your marathon fueling plan.

• 15:58Abbey Sharp?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, no, I think one thing that's really important for for our listeners to understand, because this is a common misconception, carbohydrates, even refined sugary carbs, they do not in isolation cause diabetes. They do not in isolation cause obesity. And if some of the most fit and lean individuals in the world who like have the most optimal insulin sensitivity, AKA like professional athletes, they consume enormous amounts of refined sugars and carbohydrates. You know, for the layperson, sugar is just typically easier to overeat. So it's more likely to create a calorie surplus, which then increases the risk of visceral fat

• 16:39Abbey Sharp?

  gain, which then may increase the risk of insulin resistance. But if your body is utilizing those carbs and those calories to fuel your activity, they are not in danger to your health. And we've got tons of evidence to support that. So yeah, I think with the unlearning of this sugar is bad, carbs are bad, is so such an important piece to be able to, you know, really get the the best bang for your buck when it comes to fueling your activity.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:08Abbey Sharp?

  You had mentioned earlier about fiber and choosing kind of lower fiber carbs. And I want to talk about the place for fiber rich carbs, because we know 95% of North Americans are not getting enough fiber. Fiber is so important for overall health. But of course, with runners, we have to be really strategic about fiber, since it can slow down the absorption of carbs, which we need as fuel and can cause GI distress when consumed too close to your run, for example. What do runners need to know to help them meet their 25 to 38 grams without interfering with their performance?

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I try to think about it, looking at a training schedule sometimes and looking at, you know, when does somebody have a hard workout day? When does somebody have a long run day? And, and you also have to consider on those days where you might be going like at a higher intensity workout or a long run day, you might have reduced appetite on those days. So considering like those days, you might just have to kind of like do what you can as far as like you want to get your, I always say the most important thing is to try and meet the nutrient needs. So try and get in the carbohydrate needs for that day if possible. And then on the other days of training, then you may be focusing more on those fiber-rich

• 18:27Speaker 03

  carb sources when your appetite might return, when you might not have to worry about like, oh, I'm going out for this hard workout. So, so really paying attention to like maybe the structure of your training week and then kind of figuring out, okay, where am I going to really focus more on the fiber-rich things? That doesn't mean that like on a long run day or workout day, you can't have fruits and vegetables and oats and things like that. It's just you had to maybe be a little bit more cautious in the way you structure things. Or I'll even say like, if you want to have, you know, your fruit, maybe you have more of a smoothie on a long run day because that's going to be a little bit blended up and easier

• 19:11Speaker 03

  to digest. And then always being cautious if you do have fiber on those days, trying not to have like a giant salad before you go and do like a workout or a long run.

• 19:22Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, you're asking for some, some, some GI distress on, on that front for sure. I also want to talk about protein because I know, you know, again, we always think protein is for weight training, carbs is for, you know, cardio, but protein is also very important for endurance sports as well. Can, can we talk about, you know, how much we recommend for runners and just how to ideally space or time it in with those workouts?

• 19:46Speaker 03

  I always like to explain it as like when you're training for endurance sports, your body's under a lot of breakdown and stress. Especially, you know, if you're training for an ultra marathon or something like that, like your ball, your training volume might be pretty high. And the needs that you have might even be higher than somebody that's lifting weights. So I will explain, there's kind of a range for people. I'll throw out numbers, don't try not to people to think that it needs to be like super prescriptive and like gram counting. But 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram body weight is what I typically go off of for endurance athletes.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  And just base that on, you know, the training volume and intensity of training. And then someone's, you know, situation that they're in, if they're trying to build muscle, et cetera. I think where people get hung up actually is like they'll hear in the fitness space, I need one gram per, one gram per pound of body weight for protein. And that's the 2.2 grams per kilogram body weight, which is like the high end of protein needs for people. So you don't necessarily need that every day. And people will hear that. Some people get freaked out by it. They're like, there's no way I'm ever going to achieve that. And then they start to get stressed about it and then, or they start to really focus on it.

• 21:10Speaker 03

  And then they leave out like their carbohydrate sources, you know? It's kind of this thing where you had to have a bit of an understanding of like what your needs are and how do I adjust that based on my needs, my goals, et cetera? And then figuring out what makes sense for you based on like dietary restraints and considerations. Timing wise, there's this idea that you have to like the perfectly spaced protein throughout the day. You know, current research suggests like maybe more important to actually just get in the amount of protein for the day versus like obsessing over having it evenly spread out throughout the day. So I'll usually help people by thinking about like dividing their day up into windows,

• 21:54Speaker 03

  like thirds of the day and then trying to get like. Some protein in these windows. So at least it can help with, you know, kind of keeping you satiated and keeping your, not that I'm saying you have to be perfectly balanced on the blood sugar, but it can help kind of keep your energy levels more stable throughout the day.

• 22:13Abbey Sharp?

  Uh huh.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  And I even find that like, if somebody does tend to skew their protein towards the end of the day, they might have, they might feel like more cravings and things at the end of the day, if they don't have protein at all earlier in the day. So, so really just trying to help someone navigate that and kind of think about the getting in their protein in the boxes throughout the day.

• 22:36Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, no, that's incredibly, very helpful.

• 22:50Abbey Sharp?

  And I want to quickly chat about breakfast because again, this is one of those age old diet culture. And unfortunately now it's, it's big with intermittent fasting coming back into vote. But you know, there's one of the longest debates in the nutrition and fitness world is around fasted versus fed state training with, you know, again, people claiming, oh, if you exercise or run on an empty stomach, you'll burn fat, uh, which will be beneficial for folks who are using running as a weight loss aid. And then others saying, oh no, this is going to impede your session. So you end up pushing like less hard. Um, where are we on this debate when it comes to, you know, best practices for running specifically?

• 23:28Speaker 03

  Well, we just actually like recorded an episode about intermittent fasting for our podcast. And, um, they're really, I would say like, from my perspective, the risks are not worth any potential benefit. And when we look at especially female athletes, like it might be kind of a downside to be doing a fasted training sessions with like increasing cortisol levels and increasing bone, uh, resorption factors that might occur during exercise. Um, and, and really like, I would say, uh, as far as Best practice, what I recommend, I think it makes it more difficult if you're, if you're waiting

• 24:11Speaker 03

  and doing the fasting practices to try and actually get your nutrition, like all of the nutrition you need in throughout the day in a smaller window, like especially if you're doing like the 16 hour fast and then the eight hour window and you're training for a marathon. You know, your nutrition needs can be pretty high. That's gonna, without breakfast, that really reduces things down to a very narrow window and it, um, and then when I typically the, the epiphany happens when I go over with people like, what are their needs? And then how are you going to get this in, in that window? And they're like, oh, wow, this is going to be really

• 24:50Speaker 03

  hard. Maybe, maybe I really shouldn't be doing this, you know? So, so, uh, I'm, I'm not really a proponent of fasted training. Doing your training is actually a great way. Like people say like, you know, I want to increase my fat oxidation for being able to power myself through my marathon or my ultra. Doing the actual training is a good way to increase fat oxidation rates. And we don't need too fasted training to do that.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think getting curious about where, like what an athlete is trying to achieve with that, because if we know that you can, you know, improve substrate utilization, improve your body's ability to oxidize fat just by doing the actual training, and you can still eat the way that you want, you can still fuel your training, then the risk benefit really doesn't favor fasted training. I think that people do tend to latch on to that because of maybe the, the storytelling, right? Because our culture inherently sort of tends to prioritize these narratives of restriction. Like that tends to be something that like we lift up as being a model of discipline, of restraint, um, or, you know, of like optimization, biohacking. It's like you're being smart, you're outsmarting

• 26:03Speaker 01

  your body by forcing it to burn fat. And it's like, well, no, if you just kind of jog regularly, you can make it do that as well. You don't need to, you don't need to biohack it. And looking at the risks particularly for female athletes or For a population that in general is at risk of under fueling and or of eating disorders and disordered eating, really, the reason that you see so many people gravitating towards the fasted training or towards the skipping breakfast is because like not because of the actual science, because the science is pretty mixed on fasting as that mechanism for amateur athletes and improving your fat oxidation rates when, again, you could just jog and not fast to get the same outcome.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  It's because we like the story that it like kicks into, you know, it kicks into gear some like obscure scientific process that you can only access if you have the willpower and discipline. And that is not really how the body works. And in fact, there are going to be certain parts of the population that are going to suffer from trying to do that.

• 27:04Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, yeah, that's super helpful. And I think that leads into kind of my last question here. And I want to bring this conversation back to diet culture because, you know, often engaging in a sport like running marathons or training for 10 Ks, like it often just the act of this carries a health halo. And because we know that exercise is good for the body. So, you know, running a marathon is automatically seen as this like ultra healthy behavior. But this mentality can make it hard for us to recognize burnout or injury or disordered eating or disordered exercise patterns. So what are some red flags that you might see where, you know, somebody's kind of quote, quote, healthy running habits

• 27:43Abbey Sharp?

  or training goals are kind of forming some kind of self harm properties over coming from a place of self care?

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like the the big one is like the inability to take a rest day. And it just power through. And like, even if, so Zoe and I are both also running coaches. And I feel like I have athletes that were like, I'll put a rest day on their schedule, but like, they literally cannot rest. Like, they have to like, be doing something or like, walking, you know, five miles or 10 miles with their dog or something. So it's like this inability to maybe take a breather, take a step back, allow your body to just kind of have like some time without without doing that cardio. And it's like this obsession Maybe the calorie burn, you know?

• 28:34Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  Or like that feeling of wanting to control things. And then, yeah, I mean, I guess I would also say just like the, the exercise component, like earning your food mentality too, is something that I see a lot. And it's like, well, I can't have this fuel unless I do this much exercise or I do like more, more, more. And so that's, that's also a huge red flag when I will see that with people and their ability to like allow themselves to consume certain foods or food in general.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think on the surface, like I, I love running ultras. Like my specialty is the 100 mile distance. And so adequate preparation for 100 milers superficially can look pretty similar to exercise dependency. If you don't know what's going on in the mind of the person participating. And I think that, you know, so like exercise can be a really powerful way for people to take care of them, their mental health. However, if you can't step off the treadmill, if that's the only tool in your toolbox and you literally aren't okay, and you have no other way of managing or mitigating stress outside of exercise, outside of going to the gym, outside of using movement as your sole permission structure for taking care of yourself, taking care of your mental health, taking in food, then that's a problem.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  When it's like the only thing you have and when you don't feel okay with yourself, when you can't do it, that's when it really becomes a problem. But I think it's really hard for our culture to recognize that again, because we tend to sort of over prioritize this like stay hard mentality of like it's admirable and praiseworthy to push through injury, to push through illness, that running or exercising to the point of breakdown is somehow admirable, which like, I mean, no. And also just from like an exercise physiology standpoint, that's not, that's not what productive training looks like. Productive training necessarily includes periods of rest so that you can actually adapt to the training stimulus.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  And so I think that it can be tough to tell, but if you have no other way of allowing yourself to eat food, no other way of managing or mitigating stress, like your body doesn't care if you're doing it for your mental health, like.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Gravity still exists. Your muscles are still going to be tearing on a microscopic level. Your bones still breaking down on a microscopic level. You're it's it's offensive to me frankly, that gravity continues to exist regardless of how I feel about it. But it does. And so I think that getting curious about like, where is this coming from? What am I trying to achieve? Can I not achieve it through any other way? And just because our culture tends to superficially endorse something doesn't mean it's okay and doesn't mean it's healthy. And I think that folks inherently need to widen the lens on like, what health is because like, literally not being able to like, be around your family because you have to run, that's not healthy.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  You know, like really not being able to like, go to a, you know, like a relatives, like anniversary party or a child's birthday party because you have to do your meal prepping and you have to get your like workout of the day in, that's not healthy.

• 31:38Abbey Sharp?

  Right. Yeah, no, I think that's a really great place to end here and a really important reminder for everybody listening who, you know, whether they are kind of beginning their kind of training or or running journey, or are already kind of in the thick of things and and running at a professional level. I really appreciate both of you coming on to chat about this. I'm sure so many folks are going to find this incredibly useful. And if you like Fight Back for all of my listeners, I highly recommend checking out Your Diet Sucks. It's such an amazing podcast. I'm absolutely obsessed. So thank you again so much for joining me.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Thanks for having us. Your videos always pop up when I'm fact checking our episodes. So you're doing, you're doing the Lord's work out there.

• 32:24Abbey Sharp?

  Thank you, guys.

• 32:27Abbey Sharp?

  Ah, I loved this episode. They are so fun, so smart. And as I alluded to at the top of the show, you know, running and I and me and running, we're not exactly bosom buddies. That said, I am so jealous of my friends who have found purpose in their running groups and challenging their personal best times. It really is such an incredible sport because, you know, running can be done virtually anywhere that is safe. That said, Any healthy behavior can become unhealthy when it's driven by control instead of care, when one's worth gets tied to performance or restriction,

• 33:08Abbey Sharp?

  or when ignoring your body signals is framed as a strength rather than a red flag. As Zoe, Kylie and I mentioned earlier in the show, running, no different than eating plant-based or limiting added sugar, has a powerful cultural health halo because we know that exercise is good for us. So doing as much as we possibly can often reads as a sign of discipline and virtue. But the problem is, health halos tend to hide disordered thought processes underneath them, like rigid food rules, the anxiety around rest days, the compulsive need to earn fuel, or the slow slide into low energy availability.

• 33:52Abbey Sharp?

  And unfortunately, the research does back this up. Research suggests that even recreational runners tend to display higher rates of eating disorder symptoms and elevated risk of low energy availability, which is the very state that can compromise both our health and our performance. This risk often gets compounded by the social pressure of the running community. Because when you're surrounded by like-minded people who love the grind and who pride themselves on a no pain, no gain mentality, certain red flags can get reframed as badges of honor. Pushing through injury becomes mental toughness.

• 34:37Abbey Sharp?

  Training while underfueled becomes willpower. Skipping recovery becomes commitment. Underfueling and overtraining is not just a mindset issue. It shows up physically in injury and hormonal and metabolic disruptions. So if you love running or any other endurance sport and you want to continue to enjoy it long into later adulthood, which I absolutely hope you do, we need to adopt a kinder abundance mindset around fueling our runs. So I strongly recommend working with a registered dietitian like Kylie to help you craft a gentle, flexible plan

• 35:20Abbey Sharp?

  that fuels your workouts without taking over your life. And again, this is exactly what we teach in the Hunger Question Combo Method. So I would love if you would check out the links in the show notes on where you can order. And also, please leave me a five-star review on this episode if you enjoyed it. Signing off with Science and SaaS, I'm Abby Sharp. Thanks for listening.

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