IVF, Miscarriage & Surrogacy: The Emotional Toll (and Big Business) of Infertility with journalist Kathryn Blaze Baum

Here’s a run down of what we discussed in today’s episode: Kathryn’s Infertility Story: IVF, Surrogacy & Two Pregnancies The “I’ll Do Anything” Mindset in Infertility Suffering, Worthiness & the Martyrdom of Motherhood Secondary Infertility: Grief, Guilt & Emotional Paradox Timeline Pressure: “2 Under 2” and Cultural Expectations Letting Go of Control: Releasing the Perfect Plan Surrogacy Ethics: Autonomy vs Commodification How Infertility Impacts Relationships & Support Systems What to Say (and Not Say) to Someone Facing Infertility Fertility, Control & Letting Go of Perfectionism Check in with today’s amazing guest: Kathryn Blaze Baum Website: kathrynblazebaum.com Journalism: theglobeandmail.com/authors/kathryn-blaze-baum Instagram: instagram.com/kblazebaum Book: In Fertility: The Story of a Miracle and the Big Business Behind It Disclaimer: The content in this episode is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is never a substitute for medical advice. If you’re struggling with with your mental or physical health, please work one on one with a health care provider. If you have heard yourself in our discussion today, and are looking for support, contact the free NEDIC helpline at 1-866-NEDIC-20 or go to eatingdisorderhope.com. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✨ Reach Your Weight & Health Goals — Without Dieting! Pre-order The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, Abbey’s revolutionary additive approach to eating well. Learn how to boost satiety, stabilize blood sugars, reduce disease risk, and improve your relationship with food — all while getting the best nutrient bang for your caloric buck. With 400+ research citations, cheat sheets, evidence-based actionable tips, meal plans, and adaptable recipes, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method is the only nutrition bible you’ll ever need. 👉 Pre-order today! 🛒 Where to Purchase: Amazon Barnes & Noble Amazon Kindle Apple Books Google Play Kobo Apple Books (Audiobook) Audible abbeyskitchen.com/hunger-crushing-combo • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✉️ Subscribe to My Newsletters: Abbey’s Kitchen Newsletter 📘 Check out my FREE E-Books: Hunger Crushing Combo™ E-Book Protein 101 E-Book 👋 Follow me! Instagram: @abbeyskitchen TikTok: @abbeyskitchen YouTube: @AbbeysKitchen Blog: abbeyskitchen.com Book: The Mindful Glow Cookbook • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen — and leave us a review! It really helps support the show ❤️ 💬 If you liked this podcast, please like, follow, and leave a review — and let me know who you’d love to hear about next! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐ ⭐ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  It's like the fight of your life, right? Like, it is so existential. It is so consuming. It completely takes over your body, your mind, your soul, your calendar, your relationships. You can't sleep. It's all that you think about. It's the white noise. It's the white noise of your life.

• 0:49Abbey Sharp?

  Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abbey Sharp, where I dismantle die culture rules, call out the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good. I am so excited for today's episode, which is probably going to be one of the more emotional and like raw episodes that we've recorded here for Bite Back. Because as a fertility patient and IVF mom myself, this one really hits close to home. You know, infertility has this way of completely shrinking your world. Even if you have a beautiful life, you know, a partner you love, a meaningful career,

• 1:33Abbey Sharp?

  maybe even a current earthside child that you love. When you are in the infertility grind, it is all-consuming. Your brain becomes a calculator. Your body becomes a battleground. Your calendar revolves around cycles, blood work, shots, and phone calls, breaking your heart again and again. Hope becomes both your lifeline and your daily tormentor. And today's guest, Catherine Blazebom, understands that terrain intimately. Catherine is... An award-winning journalist and an investigative reporter for The Globe and Mail, a fellow IVF mom with a wild infertility story,

• 2:17Abbey Sharp?

  the author of the brand-new book out today, Infertility: The Story of a Miracle and the Big Business Behind It. And, most important to me, she's someone I am very proud to call a close friend. In Infertility, Catherine shares the harrowing and miraculous story of secondary infertility, four miscarriages, five egg retrievals, seven failed transfers, 200 retrieved eggs, one ER visit, two fainting spells, 11 stitches, and two surrogates. And ultimately, not one, but two pregnancies three months apart.

• 2:59Abbey Sharp?

  But this conversation isn't just about one woman's wild and wonderful journey. It's about the psychological grip of infertility, the relentless "I'll do anything" mindset, the quiet shame or grieving of a child that doesn't exist while feeling like you should be grateful for the one you have, the cultural pressure to build the "perfect two-kid" family on the right timeline, and the messy ethical terrain of surrogacy. This is a story about desire, suffering, love, and what it costs to try to control something that, at its core, is uncontrollable. If you or someone you love has been through a miscarriage,

• 3:44Abbey Sharp?

  infertility, or are embarking on your own journey with assisted reproductive technology, or you just want to be more prepared for what a future may hold for you, this episode is absolutely a must. A quick reminder, if you haven't already, I would really love if you would subscribe to this podcast and leave me a five-star review and a comment on your favorite episodes. Also, check out the links in the description to my new book, The Hunger-Crushing Combo Method, as well as Catherine's book, Infertility. All right, friends, let's get into it.

• 4:25Abbey Sharp?

  All right. Catherine, thank you so much for coming in. I am super excited to chat today. And like, we're friends in real life, so I kind of knew your story going into this. But I have to tell you, like, I cried through most of your book. Like, it was just, just hearing it in your own words with the, like, with your retrospective lens, like, it was just so moving to read those words.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 4:52Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah. And now you've got, like, you've got an eight-year-old daughter who was kind of conceived the old-fashioned way. And then you've got two, like, three-ish-year-old boys, four months apart. For anyone who's like, kind of scratching their head, figure out, like, how is that even, like, possible? Do you want to just kind of quickly go over that last leg of the journey and like, how that came to fruition?

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Sure. It is. It's the crazy plot twist.

• 5:18Abbey Sharp?

  It is.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. So, we do have an eight-year-old daughter named Sydney, and she was conceived naturally, you know, the old-fashioned way, straightforward journey. I did have a miscarriage before her, but overall, you know, she was easy to make. And then giving her a sibling was damn near impossible. And that is where sort of we entered into this years-long infertility journey, multiple miscarriages, surgeries, IVF rounds, surrogacy. And so what ended up happening was, several years into the journey, we had done a transfer into our second surrogate, and it took. And so when our surrogate was around 20 weeks pregnant, I was like, I don't feel right. I don't, if I didn't know better, I'd think

• 6:03Speaker 01

  I was pregnant, which seemed completely inconceivable at the time for many reasons. And it turned out I was. So I was seven weeks pregnant. And we assumed that I would lose the pregnancy. That was my, I think, fifth or sixth pregnancy. And I didn't. And so we had these due dates. Our surrogate was due in, you know, February of 2023, and I was due at the end of May in 2023. And then in the end, Oliver came a bit early, Ben came a bit early too. So they're around four months apart. But I have these two boys that are born four months apart. I was like, heavily pregnant with a newborn. And it so they're like, I didn't know this, but there's like a word for it. They're twibblings.

• 6:41Abbey Sharp?

  Twibblings.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  They're not twins.

• 6:43Abbey Sharp?

  It's so cute.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  It's like twins-ish.

• 6:45Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  It's cute. It's and they think they are twins. They act like it.

• 6:49Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  And look like it. It's very strange.

• 6:51Abbey Sharp?

  No, I often forget that they're not twins when I see them because you're right. Like, they just seem like two little peas in a pod.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  They really are.

• 6:59Abbey Sharp?

  So sweet.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  It's really sweet.

• 7:00Abbey Sharp?

  Um, yeah, your story really kept me on the edge of my seat. Like, all the, you know, because again, like, I went through this, all the miscarriages and the ER visits and the and the fainting, the split lip. It was just like, you would be, you would fall down and you would say, I can't do this anymore. And you would get yourself back up and you would do it again. And I often think about this because it's like, there's, there's often this like warrior-like mentality during the IVF process and when in, you know, infertility circles, when, when folks are talking about what they're going through, where we are kind of telling ourselves, like, we will do anything to get that baby in arms, like, especially when we've put forward, like, so much money and time into that process.

• 7:45Abbey Sharp?

  What is it that, like, what causes this relentless drive? I'm just like, is this maternal, like, drive? Is this like, you know, is this fear? Is this personality? Is this social, you know, expectation?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I think it's a combination of all of those things. And it's so interesting because in doing the book, infertility, I was confronted with all these questions that I never really explored. Like, I just sort of took for granted that I wanted to become a mother or that I wanted another kid. And I never really, truly paused to like, do I really? And why do I? And why do I want another child? And is it just because I'm a child, like, one of five kids and I had siblings? Like, what is it? And so I found it so interesting when I sat down to do research for the book. I expected there to be some neat and tidy answer around this, like, baby fever or this biological urge. And there is, it's sort of like an open question, I think. I think there's no doubt that there is a biological primal desire that women especially

• 8:44Speaker 01

  feel, that it is hormonal, right? And it, our bodies are synced up for this symphony of insanity to go on within us and create these beings. Like, that is the point of estrogen and progesterone and the uterine lining and a period and, you know, the luteal phase, all of it is for this reproduction. But then in addition to that, I do think there is this personality aspect of people who are type A or people who are determined, who identi- whose identity is wrapped up in if I just work hard enough, I can get there and I can achieve. And I admit that that is 100% me. Same, same, same, same. And my husband, he is a Taurus and like the sign of the bull, like stubborn. Like,

• 9:29Speaker 01

  if we are going after something, like we will get it. Yeah. And, and then in addition, there is this like social pressure where, you know, if you don't have children, people are, you feel like anyways. People are wondering, well, why don't you? And are you trying? And if you don't have a second, it's like, well, are you only having one? And is it just one? And so there is this social pressure. And there was a time when I think Dan and I actually had to sit down and look at each other and have a conversation about, do we want this anymore? Like, and actually ask ourselves that question because, or were we just fighting because we wanted to win this battle? You had in your head that this is what you have to do. And I do believe that there is this kind of like warrior construct when it comes

• 10:12Speaker 01

  to infertility, especially around women, that this is what we are supposed to do. This is what our bodies are meant to do. And for a lot of us, myself included, it's like the fight of your life, right? Like, it is so existential. It is so consuming. It completely takes over your body, your mind, your soul, your calendar, your relationships. You can't sleep. It's all that you think about. It's the white noise. Yeah. It's, it's the white noise of your life. And so you fight and you keep fighting and you keep fighting and you might draw these lines where you say, okay, I'll do this one more. Or, but in my experience, we tend to draw those lines when we're at like a hopeful place. So we feel like we, we won't actually have to make that choice because we're gonna get there. Right.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  And it's only when you've come through that line that you think, oh my God, I think I have to push that line again. Right. And again, and again. And you're just, the goalposts keep moving and the lines that you draw for yourself in the sand are completely movable. Oh my gosh. So I can totally relate to that, like IVF warrior mentality. And I do think that sometimes it can take. More mental fortitude and more strength to actually stop than to keep going.

• 11:24Abbey Sharp?

  Yep. Yeah, I can relate to everything that you just said. I think, you know, for me also, again, you know, very perfectionistic, type A, I don't lose. And, and I feel like there was also this part of me that felt like, and this is such a like horrifying thought to then reflect back on that, like, if I wasn't suffering enough, I wasn't worthy. And I think that like comes back to this like martyrdom of motherhood that is just, and womanhood that is so like deeply ingrained in, in women's bodies and brains. And, you know, in my teens, I had an eating disorder. So my whole twenties, I was trying to fight this message of like, you know, from diet culture that my

• 12:05Abbey Sharp?

  suffering was virtuous. And then, you know, we get to motherhood, we're fighting for that. I did it again in breastfeeding where I felt like if I just drive myself into the ground hard enough, I will succeed. How do you think we can responsibly kind of like tell these stories about our IVF success stories without it then just kind of communicating again to women that as long as you, you know, suffer enough and you, you know, experience enough trauma, then you will eventually get that what you want, that baby in arms?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  It's such an interesting question, and I think so relatable to so many women, whether they're going through, you know, their teenage years, like you described, or a pregnancy journey, or conception, or, you know, menopause, like it's all, we're all just, all, we're one after the other. Like, it's just, it's par for the course. And I found it really interesting, actually, being introspective when I was writing the book and thinking about this idea of pain and suffering and, you know, what was it all for? And what was I meant to endure? And I think, you know, we're also supposed to feel, if we can afford to do an IVF journey, and if you have access to a clinic, I didn't feel like I should complain. Yep. About anything. Yep.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Especially when I was somebody who had like a boatload of eggs. So I was somebody who had, you know, 53 follicles to drain and dozens of eggs removed from my body. And that's a good problem to have in IVF. It means that your success, your, your success rate is supposed to be higher. And so I just felt like I should suffer in silence, that there's just some amount of discomfort and pain that is par for the course in an IVF journey. And so I didn't complain when, you know, the probe is up there and it's angling for all the like measurements of these eggs and you're lying there staring at the ceiling and you're just like, this fucking, sorry, this hurts. No, you say, girl. You know, like this fucking hurts. Yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  And, or when you become so bloated from the follicles eking out fluid after the retrieval that you can't wear pants for weeks. Yep. Or, you know, you're dizzy and your blood pressure's dropping and all of it, you're just supposed to muscle through it. And I think that is the thing that I really am hopeful that my book will help people with. That is managing expectations around this idea of pain and discomfort. I think we go into IVF, we think it's a panacea, we think it will work and we think it won't be that bad. Yep. And for a lot of women, maybe that's the case. Right. For many women, it is not. And I really want women and men to go into this journey with measured expectations about success rates.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  It doesn't usually work the first time. Right. And I don't think people know that. And so you find yourself not only in pain, not only, you know, having this kind of like martyrdom complex, not only being an IVF warrior, but having your expectations not met. Because you think that you are going to end up with a baby after the first retrieval, after the first transfer, and that's just usually not the case. And so I do think that there's a way to tell the story, I think, of these successes, as you said, in a way that also elucidates for people, the struggle. And it's not just the nursery reveal or like the black and white photo of, of the baby. I, you know, there's also everything behind that. There's the IVs, there's the injections.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  And I think being transparent about that is meaningful. I also think decoupling, you know, success with the baby, like, yes, I ended up with what I wanted. I ended up with a bigger family. But do I feel like it was like successful? Like, I don't know. It was horrible.

• 15:46Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  And so, and I don't think that the measure of like a good fertility journey is necessarily if you come out with it.

• 15:51Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just gonna.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  It's complicated.

• 15:53Abbey Sharp?

  It's so complicated because, and this is just, you know, to do with IVF, but I think in in so many situations that women put themselves in because we feel like we should be suffering and just the way we talk about that kind of suffering as being kind of, again, something virtuous, something to respect. I think about the way that, and I don't want to throw men under the bus because I know what they're saying is like, is it a sign of like gratitude? When men talk about their wives during labor and they're like, oh yeah, she labored for two days unmedicated, or it was an 18 hour labor, she breastfed for 18 months. You know, I wonder, I often think about how much healthier and happier women would be if we saw success

• 16:36Abbey Sharp?

  as quitting or, you know, stepping, stepping backs and saying, I gotta do something different for myself.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 16:43Abbey Sharp?

  For my own mental health, for my own physical health, rather than success only being if you end up with baby in arms.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And there's so much tangled up in even the word like quitting or stopping.

• 16:53Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Like, could we reframe it so that it's, you know, taking care of yourself?

• 16:58Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Whatever that looks like, you know? And I definitely struggled with that in my own journey. There were times that I think people around me would look at me and think, please stop. Like, you are going to hurt yourself. You know, I woke up on the bathroom floor in the middle of the night with a pool of blood on the floor, you know, in severe agony. My ovaries felt like there were like daggers and I had fainted from medications and I needed 11 stitches in my face. And that somehow wasn't a rock bottom. Like, I did it again.

• 17:30Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  You know?

• 17:31Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 17:45Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, and, and I want to talk a little bit more about that, that drive and in with secondary infertility specifically because I feel like it is this kind of impossible emotional paradox where on the one hand, and you've kind of described this well, on the one hand, you are grieving that child that you don't have, you're fighting for it. And on the other hand, you feel guilty or you're made to feel guilty that you should just be grateful, you know, you're not feeling just grateful for the one that you already have. And, and, and I didn't go through secondary infertility myself, that wasn't exactly my diagnosis because I did IVF from the start, but I had a harder go with the second one. So I do feel that, that, that, that is a complicated emotion to have to kind of grapple

• 18:30Abbey Sharp?

  with. Why do you think we, we struggle so much to empathize with women who, you know, love the child that they have, but still yearn for another?

• 18:39Speaker 01

  I think it's probably because we tend to like things to be neat and tidy and, you know, black and white, like either you're lucky, you should be lucky that you have a child, or oh my God, like the pain of not becoming a mother yet. And I write in the book that, you know, it's not a misery competition. That being said, like the compassion that I feel for people who are in the trenches, trying to get to their first child, like could not be more deeply felt. And while I did not have that experience, I think that I can imagine what that would be like and relate to it. I did, I did even have some feelings about like writing a book when, you know, I am somebody who already had a

• 19:20Speaker 01

  child and might people, you know, view me as being greedy for wanting a second child? Or might the woman, or the man, or the person who is struggling to get to their first child, not find me a relatable, you know, person because?

• 19:37Speaker 01

  I don't know what they're going through, you know, specifically. I think, though, that so much of the emotion and feeling of secondary infertility is is very similar to, I think, primary infertility. The existential like crisis, the deep longing, the the relentless bad news, the need to compartmentalize, the toll that it takes on your relationships, your marriage, your friendships, the consuming nature of it all, it's very parallel. And so that doesn't mean, though, that there weren't times when I was trying to talk myself out of my own sadness or my own longing and just be like, why can't you just be happy with what you have?

• 20:20Speaker 01

  You already have this beautiful daughter that you can hug when you get these, you know, bouts of bad news. But for me, this desire for a second child wasn't so much for me, I don't think. And it wasn't even so much for my husband. For me, it was for Sid, for my daughter. I was really committed to giving her a sibling. I, like I said earlier, am a one of five kids. Right. And I'm really close with my siblings. And so it was always part of my my vision for my future to have siblings for her. And it took a lot for me to go through the mental gymnastics of kind of talking myself

• 21:01Speaker 01

  out of that and being okay, because I did reach a point in the journey where I was okay, the three of us. And I'm very careful with the way I say that. It's not only child or only one child or just the three of us. I think we need to remove the justs and the onlies and, you know, reframe it like it's the three of when people ask you, how many kids do you have? One. It's the three of us. Yeah. It's okay to just end it there. Right. And I did reach that place and I was happy and I almost resented myself for being not able to be present with the child that I did have. And I got mad at myself and I was like, stop it, you know? And at the same time, I wanted to honor my own feelings of like wanting to grow my family. It's so complicated. So complicated.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Um, and I do think that it's something that we need to sort of work on in terms of supporting each other because. You know, we're all in it together, one way or another.

• 21:54Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, no, you said that so well. It is so complicated and holding space to have both of those emotions non-judgmentally, I think is so important because it's just adding another burden on yourself when you are also having to feel guilty like for not being present or feeling guilty for not being grateful and and you know, you're already kind of in the trenches of your own emotions and it's just adding to it.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  There's another layer.

• 22:18Abbey Sharp?

  Exactly. And one of the things I loved in the book was how you talked about your almost like obsession loop with like having two under two. And you know, this idea that like, that's the perfect family and that's, you know, so every single time you'd have a setback, whether it was like a canceled cycle or miscarriage, it was like, oh, my gosh, that, that, that, that goal is getting further and further away. Like, I'm not going to make that two, two hundred and two. And then, of course, that, that timeline just gets away from you.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Very much so.

• 22:49Abbey Sharp?

  Very much so. Yeah. And so I'm curious, were you able to just put that timeline to bed? And if so, like, what happened in your body when you were able to just, just stop?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  It took so long for me to let go of timelines. Like, I was so obsessed, and I think a lot of people can relate to this, with this time next year, I'll have a bump, or at this friend's like wedding, I'll, you know, be pregnant and secretly having a mocktail or at this family reunion or whatever it is, like you have these landmarks in your mind of what it's going to look like. And it just gets further and further and further away. And I will never forget, like, our daughter, it was the eve of her, like, third birthday, and we were so far from two under two at this point. And like, I felt myself kind of like sad that she was turning three. Not that she was like getting older, but that

• 23:42Speaker 01

  like, we still hadn't achieved our goal yet, and that there was going to be this widening gap between them. And would they even like, relate to each other? And what kind of relationship would they have? Which I explore this as well, is so unbelievable to think about because, you know, I, there's four other kids in my family, and I am so close with all of them. And there's massive age gaps between us. Like, my only sister is six years younger than me, and she's my closest friend. And it's like, I don't know why I was so obsessed with that. I actually think it was I got a goal that I sort of like took for granted. I didn't actually really think about whether it mattered to me. And I will, I will never forget like the moment when it kind of

• 24:22Speaker 01

  fell away for me. It was right around Sid's third birthday and we were out for a walk after dinner and she looked up at the stars and she was into like wishing on a star. And so she looked up at it and she was like, mommy, will you wish on a star with me? You know, I wish I may, I wish I might wish upon a star tonight. And for years I had wished that I would get pregnant and that I would have a healthy viable pregnancy and that we would have a baby. And I will never forget looking up at that star and thinking to myself, I wish for a happy, healthy and safe family. And the goal just changed and it like lifted off of me and I realized like, that's actually what I wanted. Like more than a baby, I wanted a healthy family and a safe family. And from then

• 25:06Speaker 01

  on, I felt less kind of married to these landmarks and goals and goalposts. And I felt a little bit freed up from the weight of this timeline that you absolutely cannot control.

• 25:19Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  And I realized, you know, now I've got these kids and like the age difference like doesn't like really matter. And I'm so happy when I get to speak with people who are in the trenches of trying to grow their family and communicate to them that it will, it's okay. It's okay if it's a bigger gap than you thought. Like, please take this off of your plate. Like, please focus on the goal at hand, which is baby in arms, one way or another. You know, it's not within a certain amount of time. And even for the person who's struggling for their first child, like, yes, your friends' kids are going to be older than yours, but you're going to have friends who are going to have kids at the same time as you. You're going to have cousins that are going to have, you know, it's like, it's not what you envisioned, but I hope and pray that you will

• 26:05Speaker 01

  get there. And again, there are those people who don't get there. And that's so hard. And, you know, I, I speak with these people and they have to change their whole vision for their life. And it's a reframing of, you know, not being childless, but you know, maybe being child, child free by choice, like sort of finding a new community to be part of that can help you get through that.

• 26:28Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Abbey Sharp?

  As you're talking about this, I'm reminded of like how important it is to sometimes like interrogate some of these expectations that we have and like why we have them. Whether that is like, you know, having a boy first and then a girl or like same sex or different sex or three or, you know, all of these things. Because like you said, like, once you're in the infertility world, you realize that so much has to go right.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  It's crazy. Like, so much has to go right.

• 27:11Abbey Sharp?

  You think you just have sex and then a baby comes nine months and it's like,

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Sometimes and sometimes not. And like, the idea that I ever thought about whether it would be a boy or a girl is so laughable. Like, I would have taken,

• 27:22Abbey Sharp?

  Or like a zodiac sign.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Like, or time of year. Like, oh, they can share clothes if it's the same. Like, let it go. Let it go. Let it go.

• 27:31Abbey Sharp?

  Let it go. Yeah. I, wow. Well, speaking of having kids, you know, same time as the year, I want to talk about gestational surrogacy because this is, you know, it is still a bit of like a messy, controversial topic. And, you know, there are some feminists who, who claim that this is commodifying women's bodies, others claiming this is an active bodily autonomy. And then, of course, it gets complicated by the fact that we have different laws in Canada versus the United States when it comes to surrogacy. So, you know, here in Canada, where we are, it's an active altruism. It's, you know, you can't pay a surrogate to provide that service. And in the States, it is a more paid for service. In, in all the research you did, both while going through it, and then I'm sure, like, even more so afterwards

• 28:16Abbey Sharp?

  for the book, where did you kind of net out on that conversation? And, you know, what do you think is the best method?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  There's so much that surprised me about the surrogacy space, you know, going through the journey and then after, you know, interviewing surrogates and intended parents for the book. And so I think the, the number one thing that people are quite shocked by is that surrogates in Canada aren't paid. Like, people are so, they're, wait, what? Why would somebody ever do this? Especially people who had difficult pregnancies. They're like, why would you sign up? To go through this and put your body through this and like it's it can be dangerous, right? Like pregnancy can be complicated. And so that's, you know, a surprising thing to a lot of people because yes, in Canada, for the past 20 or so years, under what's called the Assisted Human Reproduction Act, surrogates cannot be paid. You can only reimburse them for expenses that they incur that are associated with the journey.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  And so what that does, you know, in contrast to the United States is create a situation where the supply demand dynamic is like very off. And I hate to speak about it in those kind of like market terms, but for simplicity's sake, like there are far fewer surrogates than there are intended parents looking for help to grow or start their families. And so that puts people in a really challenging position, right? Where there's like these very long wait lists and we're not talking about necessarily only people who it's not working the old fashioned way. We're talking about like gay men who like they can't do it without a surrogate, right? Yeah, like they think they it's not happening for them that way. And so the Canadian Fertility and Andrology Society has put out, you know, its position, which is

• 29:51Speaker 01

  they long for and would desire a change to Canadian law that would allow surrogates to be reasonably compensated. That's kind of in contrast, or in some ways similar to the United States where yeah, you can pay surrogates, but you can pay them like enormous sums of money, like half a million dollars. Like there's it's kind of a lot less regulated in terms of the amounts that you can pay. But one could argue that at least by paying a surrogate for their literal labor, that it's actually less exploitative than not paying them. And so it's this conversation around the commodification of women's bodies and body autonomy is is very wrapped up in in surrogacy. And what I found really interesting was when I was

• 30:32Speaker 01

  talking to surrogates, you know, for the book or talking to researchers, a lot of the women in Canada aren't doing this like for money because they can't. They they put their number one reason is like they want to help people. And even the two surrogates that I had journeys with, both of them said that they didn't want to be compensated. Like when I asked them, do you wish that this was more like the United States? Like they said no. So I found that really interesting. I think what would be good is just a clearer, more transparent regulatory system for surrogacy where it's just a lot more

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Clear about what you can pay surrogates for.

• 31:08Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  What they're considered to be, you know, reasonable expenses.

• 31:11Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  That sort of thing. And I do think that we could benefit for a structure where there is some amount of compensation for surrogates. I think that there are experts like far beyond my pay grade, who would wade into like what that would look like.

• 31:24Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  But I do think that the current system could be better.

• 31:28Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  And it's also just so interesting because in Canada and the United States, like surrogacy is legal.

• 31:34Abbey Sharp?

  Right?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And like, I kind of took for granted that it would be in most places. And actually, it's the opposite. So there are these countries where not only can you not pay a surrogate, but like you actually can't be a surrogate and you can't use a surrogate. Like Italy recently passed a law where, you know, you can't even go abroad for surrogacy and bring your kid back to Italy. Like, so it's, it's really interesting because a lot of the world's surrogacy needs are actually, you know, carried on the back of North America. And so it creates this, these long wait lists and this desire among Canadians who have these long wait lists to then go find surrogates in places like Mexico, you know, where it's a lot less regulated or where there's just a lot more unknowns. And so what's better? Like, it's kind of an open question.

• 32:18Abbey Sharp?

  I, yeah, I was shocked to read in your book about the other, other countries not allowing surrogacy. And I'm thinking like, well, what, then what do, you know, queer couples do?

• 32:28Speaker 01

  I would imagine that they would have to move.

• 32:30Abbey Sharp?

  Right. That, that again adds a whole other layer and stress to folks who are dealing with infertility or, you know, who, who cannot have a baby the traditional way.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Cause there's all kinds of access, right? Questions about access. Is it financial access?

• 32:44Abbey Sharp?

  Right.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Is it like legal access?

• 32:45Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Is it proximity? Like there's provinces in Canada and territories in Canada that don't have an IVF clinic. Like, you know, you think about this person who has to go for treatment, they have to get on a plane.

• 32:56Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  And they have to pay for that. And yes, there are some forms of subsidies that, you know, different provinces and territories might have, but. The question around access is like a very big one. And, you know, it's not lost on me, the privilege that I have by living in Ontario by being able to afford this.

• 33:12Abbey Sharp?

  By being able to walk to my fertility clinic every morning. As, you know, as much as I hated it, that was one thing I took for.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Those early morning walks.

• 33:20Abbey Sharp?

  I was like, you know, I did realize that that was something not to take for granted, that I met women who were driving in three hours at six in the morning for those blood draws. So to imagine you'd have to get on a plane and take time off work is just, again, adding a huge other burden to, to the process. And I want to kind of finish by talking a little bit about relationships because, you know, something that I've thought about, and you've mentioned in the book, is that infertility doesn't just affect the couple. It really can affect everyone else in the vicinity who, you know, you interact with, whether it's your surrogate who's feeling frustrated and emotional at that she's not falling pregnant with your embryos.

• 34:00Abbey Sharp?

  Or your siblings who feel like nervous to tell you about their own kind of family journeys and growing their family or pregnancy announcements. And in a lot of cases, at least in my experience, like I found that people will, will just pull back because they don't know how to talk to you about what's going on. They don't know how to tell you that they're pregnant or whatever the news may be. They don't know if they can invite you to the baby showers and things like that. In your experience, and I'm sure everybody's, you know, what their needs are is going to be different. But what do you feel was like helpful in terms of support and words? And what perhaps was like, it made the pain worse?

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there, there's lots on both like sides of the column. And unfortunately, people do a lot of like the things that I wish people wouldn't say.

• 34:50Abbey Sharp?

  Please tell us those because I'm sure people will need to know.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Like if you'd only just relax.

• 34:55Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Or like, maybe you could just go on like a trip and like.

• 34:58Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Meditate or, you know, like people, and people actually say these things, right?

• 35:02Abbey Sharp?

  I got, I got the same.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  If you just didn't put so much pressure on yourself. It's like, oh, okay. So like, I'm going to force myself to relax and that's going to make everything better.

• 35:09Abbey Sharp?

  After spending all this money and having.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Time and, right? And so that's not so helpful. Or.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  You know, just I think there's also this like, yeah, this fear of like telling people like the person telling you that they're pregnant or or whatnot. I found it was easier for me when people, it was easier for me when people would tell me in like a text message. Yes. Or they would tell my husband or something where there was a buffer where like I didn't have to have like an immediate reaction. And I felt so like icky needing that space because you want to be joyful for your friends and your family. And you are like, you are 100% happy for them and you are 100% sad for yourself. Like, those are true at the same time. And I think like just being sensitive about those kinds of like announcements. And also,

• 35:59Speaker 01

  like, I found it really hard when, and I explore this in the book, too. I found it really hard when people would like, friends would almost like complain to me about like the struggles of the newborn or the struggles of like the two kids so much. And I would be thinking to myself, like, I would give my right arm to like, have a newborn baby cry, or have like my kid hit my kid. Like, I would love for some sibling rivalry. Like, and so I think just like being really mindful of what the other person is going through is helpful in terms of like what not to say. And then in terms of what to say, the things that I found most like supportive were just like, almost like commiserating, where it's like,

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I know it's unfair. Like, I hate this for you. I wish that it wasn't this way. Like, those actually made me feel like very validated and like supported. And it wasn't that I wanted like misery loves company. It wasn't that I wanted this person to like be negative with me. It was just that I didn't want someone to be optimistic for me until I was ready to be like optimistic for myself. So, like, I think the idea of like, oh, at least you know you can get pregnant. Like, that's great. And intellectually, it makes sense. But you can only really feel that in your bones when you're like, ready to feel that in your bones, you know? Yeah. And so I think just, you know, asking questions like, do you want to, like, do you want to be distracted? Or do you want to like, talk about it? Do you want to go

• 37:25Speaker 01

  for a walk? Or do you want to go and like get drinks? Like, you know, like, just trying to ask questions about what they need is, I think, also really helpful. And I found That sometimes it wasn't the case that people were pulling away from me. It was like I was pulling away.

• 37:40Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  And I noticed that in myself that like I retreated from certain relationships in kind of like a self preservation kind of way. And I think it's okay to do that.

• 37:48Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Like, protect yourself and it's okay to be a bit selfish. It's okay to draw a boundary. And if someone isn't being sensitive, or if being around someone is really hard for you, it's okay to pull back and protect yourself. Like you're going through enough.

• 38:05Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, yeah. I, I think that's so important. I was just thinking like, you know, if that means you don't go to that baby shower, then don't go to that baby shower and, and don't feel bad about it. Because I think a lot of the times, part of what's again, adding extra burden is like us feeling like, oh, my friend needs to tiptoe around my emotions.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so hard. It's such a terrible feeling, feeling pity. Like there's like, you already feel bad and then you have to take on the feeling of feeling pitied.

• 38:33Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  And that's not really their fault because like they just feel sad for you and like you can't blame them for that. But that feeling of, of being this like wounded bird that people have to be careful around is, is horrible feeling.

• 38:46Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah. I think giving yourself the grace to make the choices that, that serve you rather than like you said, again, muscling it, muscling through or this kind of martyrdom, like, oh, I need to do this for my friend. I need to like, you know, put on a happy face.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  And your good friends will understand.

• 39:02Abbey Sharp?

  They will understand. You don't need to put on a happy face if, if that's not gonna, you know, feel good to you. So, Catherine, I'm so grateful that you were able to come and chat about the book. The book is amazing. I highly recommend everybody, you know, friends, if really whether you're going through infertility or not, you want to, you have people in your life who are going through infertility. This book is a must read. It's so beautifully written. Catherine, thank you so much for, for coming in.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

• 39:32Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, I really, really, really loved this episode. I mean, this was a conversation that I so badly wish I had nine years ago when I was sitting in that fertility office waiting room every single morning for my 6:00 AM blood draw, reading every thread in like the 15 Facebook infertility Facebook support groups that I was actively posting in. You know, when you are trying to get pregnant and it's not happening, the shame that you have over your body's apparent failure is so soul shattering and the uncertainty of everything is just, just brutal.

• 40:17Abbey Sharp?

  Like suddenly, every bite, every pill, every quirky little habit feels incredibly high stakes. And you're not chasing perfection because you are vain. You are chasing the self reassurance that you've left no stone unturned. And that desperation creates the perfect conditions for diet culture, wellness misinformation, and snake oil grifters to very loudly enter the chat. And I mean, I remember eating like copious amounts of pineapple to potentially help with implantation, even though I knew damn well that this was not going to be the reason

• 41:00Abbey Sharp?

  I got a positive pregnancy test. But you are just so desperate to feel like you are prioritizing this hypothetical pregnancy and sacrificing your own physical and mental well-being in order to quote, quote, "earn" yourself the title of being a mom. What I wish more people said out loud is that doing more isn't always doing better. Like fertility doesn't improve just because we restrict harder, or optimize deeper, or micromanage our bodies into submission. In fact, a lot of these protocols, like those that suggest cutting out entire food groups, or

• 41:41Abbey Sharp?

  Eating low carb or doing so-called hormone detoxes or overhauling your exercise outline can actually contribute to physical and emotional stress and send the opposite signal to the body, one that potentially says it's not safe to reproduce. I mean, in my own personal experience, going through several failed IVF cycles, I actually found that the two successful rounds that resulted in live pregnancies weren't the cycles preceded by months of fertility diet hacks. They were actually the months where I ate the sugar and drank the wine and eased up on my perfect quote, quote fertility hacks and habits.

• 42:26Abbey Sharp?

  And while I'm not suggesting that adding alcohol is going to like help anyone's pregnancy outcomes, it speaks to what letting go of control can often do for our mental and physical health. So if you are listening to this and feeling like you need to earn pregnancy by being perfectly disciplined, I want to maybe just offer a gentler truth. You know, wanting answers doesn't mean you have to punish your body to get them. So in addition to, of course, working with an evidence-based care team, I think that focusing on adequate nourishment, supportive care, stress management, and perhaps most importantly, self-kindness,

• 43:10Abbey Sharp?

  are so essential to supporting you in your journey, regardless of what that outcome becomes. And I think I'm going to wrap it up right there. So again, I'm so grateful to Catherine Blaisbaum for joining me today to share her story. It is such an incredible book. I highly recommend checking it out. So hit up the show notes for where you can purchase Infertility, along with my bestselling book, The Hunger Crush and Combo Method. Signing off with Science and SaaS, I'm Abbey Sharp. Thanks for listening.

• 43:49Speaker 03

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