Is Big Ag the BAD Guy? Debunking a Crop of Food Misinformation with Farmer Michelle Miller

Here’s a run down of what we discussed in today’s episode: Quick-Fire Big Ag Myth-Busting Can Regenerative Agriculture Scale? How Big Ag Uses Tech to Improve Sustainability GMOs, Organics, and the Real Public Health Risk Pesticides 101: What Actually Happens on Farms Glyphosate Fearmongering and the Truth About Risk Inside Factory Farms: Separating Reality from Viral Content When AI and Social Media Distort Farm Animal Welfare What Food Labels Like “Organic” and “Pasture-Raised” Really Mean How to Make Safe, Budget-Friendly Food Choices Without Fear Why Our Food Beliefs Come From Feelings, Not Farms Check in with today’s amazing guest: Michelle Miller Website: thefarmbabe.com Tiktok: tiktok.com/@thefarmbabe Instagram: @thefarmbabe Disclaimer: The content in this episode is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is never a substitute for medical advice. If you’re struggling with with your mental or physical health, please work one on one with a health care provider. If you have heard yourself in our discussion today, and are looking for support, contact the free NEDIC helpline at 1-866-NEDIC-20 or go to eatingdisorderhope.com. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✨ Reach Your Weight & Health Goals — Without Dieting! Pre-order The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, Abbey’s revolutionary additive approach to eating well. Learn how to boost satiety, stabilize blood sugars, reduce disease risk, and improve your relationship with food — all while getting the best nutrient bang for your caloric buck. With 400+ research citations, cheat sheets, evidence-based actionable tips, meal plans, and adaptable recipes, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method is the only nutrition bible you’ll ever need. 👉 Pre-order today! 🛒 Where to Purchase: Amazon Barnes & Noble Amazon Kindle Apple Books Google Play Kobo Apple Books (Audiobook) Audible abbeyskitchen.com/hunger-crushing-combo • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✉️ Subscribe to My Newsletters: Abbey’s Kitchen Newsletter 📘 Check out my FREE E-Books: Hunger Crushing Combo™ E-Book Protein 101 E-Book 👋 Follow me! Instagram: @abbeyskitchen TikTok: @abbeyskitchen YouTube: @AbbeysKitchen Blog: abbeyskitchen.com Book: The Mindful Glow Cookbook • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen — and leave us a review! It really helps support the show ❤️ 💬 If you liked this podcast, please like, follow, and leave a review — and let me know who you’d love to hear about next! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐ ⭐ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  I don't like the misleading claims. Like, there's a million ways that you can sell why your product is better without having to say, "Down with factory farms, buy our product."

• 0:42Abbey Sharp?

  Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abbey Sharp, where I dismantle diet culture rules, call out the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good. Today, we are diving into one of the most polarizing topics in food media: big egg. We've all seen the documentaries, the fear-based headlines, and the viral podcast interviews telling us that large-scale agriculture is destroying our planet and poisoning our food. But is that the full picture? To help us unpack this, I'm thrilled to be joined by Michelle Miller, aka "The Farm Babe",

• 1:25Abbey Sharp?

  one of the nation's most influential voices working to bridge the gap between consumers and the people who grow their food. Michelle and I will talk about what is actually going on in those big, scary factory farms, the truth about pesticides, and the potential use of regenerative practices in big egg farms. Before we get into it, we are weeks away from the launch of my new book, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method. If you've been on the diet roller coaster all of your life and are looking for a more sustainable approach that has helped thousands of people already, this is going to be your bible. There are specific chapters on how to

• 2:10Abbey Sharp?

  Apply this method for your unique goals and situations, including achieving a healthy body weight, blood sugar balance, menopause and perimenopause, and so much more. I would really love if you would preorder, as preorders make a massive difference in the success of a book. So it really, really, really would mean so much to me. And as a thank you, I am giving away a free Hunger Crush and Combo Holiday Survival Guide. So please check out the description on how to redeem that today. All right, friends, let's dive in.

• 2:49Abbey Sharp?

  Okay, Michelle, I am super excited to chat today. I mean, farming is something that I am very passionate about. I actually married into a farming family, and I'm, you know, all about finding ways to, you know, break down barriers to getting nutritious foods in more families' homes. So I love this. So thank you for being here.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. Now I understand why you're so factually accurate when it comes to agriculture. I didn't realize that you married into it.

• 3:16Abbey Sharp?

  Yes, yes, no, absolutely. And, and you know, to start off here, I, you know, I often love to do like a little quick fire myth busting, just to kind of like warm us up. And, and, and we'll go into more details on these soon. So really quick fact fiction. Uh, are you ready?

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:31Abbey Sharp?

  Let's do it. Okay. So first, big egg means giant corporations own all of the farms.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  No, false. Uh, 97% of farms are family owned. And yes, sometimes some of them contract grow for larger scale agriculture, but big does not necessarily mean bad.

• 3:49Abbey Sharp?

  Whoa, I love that. Okay. Okay, so here's another one. Pesticides in industrial farms are poisoning our food.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I hate that one.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  First of all, how do they, how are they defining industrial? Like, I feel like it's always like these adjectives that want to, again, paint it out like it's some sort of bad thing. And farms continue to grow. Farmers are 1% of the population of North America. So yes, a lot of them are becoming big to feed us all. Equipment's getting bigger. Pesticides are very well regulated. We're using safer pesticides than ever before. Softer in a more specific dose for more specific problem. And the dose makes the poison.

• 4:29Abbey Sharp?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. And we'll talk more about that soon. Okay, here's another one. Big egg farmers are rolling in cash.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I wish.

• 4:38Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, no.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  There, as the price of operating a farm continues to rise and dealing with different types of political pressures and tariffs and monopolies and different types of agriculture, a lot of farmers are struggling to make ends meet lately with the low commodity price.

• 4:57Abbey Sharp?

  Awesome. Okay, here's another one. Big egg is destroying the planet.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Hmm, one of my favorites to bust. Again, we're doing more with less. We are reducing our chemical use. We are reducing things that we don't like. And that is the farmer's number one goal is to save money, be more profitable. And to do that, you must eliminate or reduce your input costs. So we're trying to maximize our yields by reducing what we're putting on the field. So yeah, we've got a lot to bust today.

• 5:30Abbey Sharp?

  Lots to unpack. Okay, two more, two more. Okay, all industrial farms are cruel and abusive towards animals.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  It's like you can't grow your business if you don't understand animals. Like, it's just like any other business. So yeah, some of the larger scale farms are the ones that have the most understanding of animal health because they've done it thousands and thousands of times over decades worth of experts and usually decades worth of experience and usually have the best experts on staff because some of the biggest farms have the means and the resources to hire full-time veterinarians, full-time staff, like some of the best people and animal handling experts, or they've got more oversight or regulations because they're selling into some of the bigger corporations that require additional steps to ensure animal health and welfare.

• 6:17Abbey Sharp?

  Okay, amazing. And the last one here. Industrial agriculture and regenerative agriculture cannot coexist.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  They absolutely can coexist. But again, what is the definition of industrial egg? It's like people trying to say that big is like this blank, faceless industrial corporation. Like you just picture, you picture like a factory or something. And it's like, family farmers' values haven't changed. Like, yes, there, some of their farms have changed, but um, yeah.

• 6:48Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, okay. So let's break some of this down now. So you you mentioned that regenerative practices and kind of quote, quote, big egg are not mutually exclusive. Can you talk a little bit about some of the potential environmental benefits of scale?

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like you just have more tools in the toolbox. So maybe you have more precise equipment, like, let's just say a sprayer, for example, like if you are using a sprayer to spray pesticides or like crop protection products to protect your plants, maybe you can afford one that's bigger and better, that has better spray technology. Like nowadays, a modern sprayer will have sensors on it that can tell, oh, you already sprayed there, or it'll automatically shut off. So you're not doing the same area twice. You have more access to precision agriculture, like GPS systems, you know exactly what's going where, and you can really control that variable rate of different products that you're using at a certain area at a certain time. So maybe like

• 7:47Speaker 01

  a smaller scale farm that's doing things more by hand, or maybe doesn't know the technology, or they don't have access to those data points. You know, you could argue, hey, like, because we're a larger scale farm, we have the best technology, we are utilizing the best terraces, the buffer zones from waterways. You have, maybe your pesticides are going to spray, your spray is going to drift less. You know, there's, there's so many things. I mean, there's, there's just so many ways. That's just one example.

• 8:14Abbey Sharp?

  No, I was reading about that as well, that we have better precision agriculture tools, right, that can, you know, apply those, the compost, the bio fertilizers of the water exactly where it needs. And we, you know, we've got drones and satellite data to track soil carbon and plant diversity and all that. I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface like here, like you mentioned. But, you know, another one that I want to talk about is that, you know, from my channels, I've talked a lot about GMOs versus conventional crops, and I've been very vocal about their safety. And also the fact that there's virtually, you know, that conventionally grown products are virtually no less nutritious than organic non-GMOs. And, you know, personally, I don't really care if people want to choose organic over conventional produce, but I do care

• 8:58Abbey Sharp?

  Information. And if that misinformation results in people eating less produce out of fear because they just cannot afford to buy organic. So obviously, as a dietitian, I'm focused and worrying about public health. But as a farmer, you know, what, what are you most worried about when it comes to GMO and organic misinformation?

• 9:18Speaker 01

  I couldn't have said that better myself, Abbey. Now, okay, organic and natural is a $350 billion industry. So for them to be like big ag GMOs, it's kind of like, hey, you're profiting off of fear. Like, let's not, let's be real here. And so when they're shutting down GMOs or they're shutting down technology or things that could really help everybody, they're essentially shutting down some of the world's poorest farmers and the world's poorest people and the people around the world that need access to the best technology. And when policy doesn't understand that and when perception doesn't understand that, it hurts the entire world and it reduces yield and it's worse for the planet. And like, we need to have access to these tools that are proven safe and effective

• 9:59Speaker 01

  to maximize our yield as we lose three acres of farmland every minute to urban development.

• 10:05Abbey Sharp?

  Whoa, I did not know that stat. That's pretty scary.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yes, it is. Yeah. I mean, we're losing farms at alarming rates. I'm in South Florida today and I've been interviewing a lot of farms down here and just talking about like what it used to be and the threat of urban sprawl. This is just one example that's happening everywhere.

• 10:23Abbey Sharp?

  Wow. And, and, you know, building on this, I want to talk about pesticides because the, you know, there's always so much fear mongering about pesticides, especially, you know, things like glyphosate, which all these anti-science activist groups like the EWG are like, they love to conjure up these images of like you serving your kids a bowl of cereal while you're spraying it with a chemical bottle by somebody in a hazmat suit. Like, you know, it's terrifying for parents to see that kind of stuff. And, and so for those who have never, you know, for people who have never been on a farm, can you explain how pesticides are applied in conventional versus organic farms? And maybe the benefits of some of these demonized pesticides like glyphosate?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So as a larger scale commercial or a larger commercial scale farmer myself, I mean, we were spraying glyphosate sometimes, which is how my blog and platform really took off was through the myth busting of like, yes, we grow GMOs. Like, yes, sometimes we spray glyphosate, but it is at a rate of 22 ounces per acre. So you're looking at like, you know, like less than two beer cans on an area of land the size of a football field. So when people see these sprayers, they just, they think that this is all these chemicals and we're just spraying all the time. And first of all, in order for us to spray, you know, we've got to have licenses, certifications, trainings, ongoing education, proper handling. And then it's always the dose makes the poison. So it's because of GMOs that we're only spraying,

• 11:51Speaker 01

  you know, glyphosate or maybe different, a mixture of a couple of different herbicides. And we only spray like one or two days out of the entire year at the very beginning part of the growing season. So the misinformation train, like as a mythbuster in agriculture, like I've got a lot of we've got a lot of, uh, with sort of looking for, um, job security. Because fear sells. And so they're out there painting these pictures, but the people that are demonizing this perfectly safe and healthy food want people to pay more for their groceries. And that fear mongering is sponsored by the organic and natural 350 billion dollar a year industry there. Make no mistake, like big wellness is a trillion dollar industry. And so organic uses pesticides. Like I was actually just on a farm here in South Florida

• 12:36Speaker 01

  the other day where they were spraying an organic fungicide directly on organic kale. And so that's what really drives me crazy is the misinformation where people say, oh, organic is so pure and great, but like it's not. So even for the consumer that thinks, oh, I gotta pay for this. It's better. They're getting, they're, they're getting lied to. Like the key word for organic is no synthetic pesticides, but natural means nothing in terms of toxicity. So organic can sometimes spray more than non-organic. It's just a naturally derived chemical. But again, it's like the dose makes the poison. You'd have to eat like thousands of servings in a single setting or single sitting in order to negatively impact you. So it's, it's like very

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Very minimal, a very fine mist. We're washing our produce. Eat more produce.

• 13:22Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, eat more produce regardless of how it's grown. I mean, and like you said, some organic pesticides may not even be as effective as the, you know, the, the non-organic. So farmers need to use more of them. And also synthetic pesticides actually have a lot more safety data than organic in a lot of cases. Like glyphosate, for example, has over 1,500 studies to support its safety and efficacy. And we've got research that shows that it has a lower acute toxicity level than 94% of all herbicides, including those kind of quote, quote, "natural" herbicides that are being used for organics. And I mean, I just feel like I'm constantly having to debunk this whole glyphosate causes cancer narrative.

• 14:06Abbey Sharp?

  And, you know, just for people's background knowledge, this is all based on very kind of faulty IARC system that really only evaluates whether a substance can cause cancer under certain conditions, which is what we call a hazard, but it doesn't tell you the likelihood or the dose or the level of exposure that would be required to do so, which is the actual risk. And when we look at all these like smear campaigns that we've seen recently, like, you know, Cheerios or Bonza having these high levels of glyphosate, they fail to mention that you would have to consume over 200 bowls of pasta every single day of your life to get anywhere close

• 14:46Abbey Sharp?

  to the already very conservative ADI for glyphosate. Like you would die from iron toxicity or like you'd blow up from fiber before the glyphosate ever had a chance to harm you.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I was just gonna say like, there's a reason though, why glyphosate is so popular is because if you look at what we used to use before we transitioned into that, it was much, much worse. And so farmers are swinging their praises when stuff like GMOs and glyphosate comes out because it's phased out some of the older skull and crossbone products that we're no longer using. If you look back to pesticides like 100 years ago, like I think arsenic was the most popular one, right? So it's like, do we, we can't keep going backwards. This is why it's so important to get the facts out there to help people understand chemistry. The dose makes the poison and how we continue to, continue to keep going. Like I bet 50 years from now, we'll look back and say, oh, thank God, we no longer have to use that glyphosate stuff.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  But as of right now, like it's one of the best tools in the toolbox we have, which is why it's so popular.

• 15:47Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah. And, and just so people know, like there have been organic pesticides that were being used because they thought, oh, it's natural. It's safer. And they, then we found out that they actually, like they were heavily toxic and had to be pulled from the system. So natural doesn't always mean healthier, doesn't always mean better. This is all part of this appeal to nature's fallacy that unfortunately wellness culture loves to just drill into us that, you know, that natural is always, you know, safer, healthier, better, when that actually is absolutely not the case. Because like, there's a lot of natural substances out there that are very, very, very toxic. Asbestos, for example, and arsenic and, you know, lead and all these things that are just naturally found in the earth.

• 16:30Abbey Sharp?

  You don't want to be consuming those in heavy doses, right?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Very true.

• 16:48Abbey Sharp?

  Now there's one kind of last area that I want to touch on, and it may be even more controversial than everything else we've already touched on. So I of course want to lead with some sensitivity, especially to my friends who for various, you know, moral, religious, environmental health, or other reasons, choose not to consume animal products. But this idea of like factory farms, like they're consistently characterized by animal cruelty and inhumane living conditions and environments and poor sanitation. And, and I'm not a vegetarian, but it is even hard for me to watch these videos that pop up on social media of like hundreds of birds, like, you know, trembling on top of each other and like a small pen.

• 17:31Abbey Sharp?

  And, you know, these things pop in my feed and guaranteed, you know, now that I'm talking about it, I'm going to be served a bunch more of these videos. So that's always tough, but. I'm not suggesting that this is fake news. I'm sure there are factory farms out there who are acting inhumanely if, you know, the economic model favors practices like that that compromise animal welfare. But do all large poultry or cattle farms work this way? Can you talk about that?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  No, the absolute opposite is true. And this is one of my favorite myths to bust. I have been to hundreds of some of the largest so-called factory farms, especially here in North America. And wow, like, this is the one thing that I just wish I could bring everybody to is the technology behind some of the largest feedlots, whether it's beef, pork, poultry, whatever, are doing an incredible job. Like, I would say maybe back in like, the 90s, like 80s, 90s, when they were still trying to figure it out, maybe it wasn't that good. But nowadays, there's ventilation, there's better housing, there's biosecurity, there's better genetics, there's better transport, care, watering systems, feeders, I mean, the list goes on.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  And they've really studied this stuff to a science where they know what's called stocking density, which is how they know exactly, here's how many cattle we can put in this pen to maximize that rate of gain, because it is still a business, like, you still have to, you know, or poultry, like, you want to know, like, hey, we have to spend this much to raise the chicken to be this big. There's no such thing as added hormones in poultry or pork. It's not even a thing. It hasn't been a thing in almost 80 years. And so food corporations are capitalizing on this. No, absolutely not. Like, the bigger the farm, the more I am impressed. Like, it's, it's shocking. Like, to know that we can raise millions of animals with no antibiotics ever nowadays is very commonplace. You'd be

• 19:23Speaker 01

  hard pressed, like, especially places like Purdue, like, the big chicken company. I was just, I just did a whole animal welfare summit with them. And they showed me and took me around. And they actually invited some of these animal rights activists to be like, hey, we're transparent. Like, we care about animals, too. Like, we don't have to, we can agree to disagree on whether or not we want to eat them. But rest assured, if you are buying, like, the cheapest in the store, or whatever label you want, I mean, I always encourage people to buy local, direct from the local family farm is great. But like, if you are in the grocery store and you want to purchase the cheapest, that doesn't mean you're making a bad decision, I promise you.

• 20:01Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, and wow. And I can imagine this is becoming even harder for people to make sense of now with AI. Like, obviously, I'm not suggesting that abuse does not happen. I'm sure it does, but there will always be, you know, a financial agenda for any position or message that you can imagine, whether that's anti-meat, or pro-meat, or pro-organic, or whatever. You know, a lot of what we are seeing now online might not even be real. And as a science communicator, that is really scary for me.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  And so they do this, and they portray it, or they're trying to sell a different meat product by saying, "Factory farms are bad. You better buy our pasture-raised, grass-fed, organic, non-GMO for only three times the price." And so they get you like that. And so, you know, I don't buy any of the expensive label stuff personally, because I don't like the misleading claims. Like, there's a million ways that you can sell why your product is better without having to say, "Down with factory farms. Buy our product." It's like, say, "Buy our product, because we do this differently, and this is what makes us great." And you don't have to spread disinformation or fear-mongering to sell, and that's why I won't buy into those labels.

• 21:10Abbey Sharp?

  Okay, AI aside, you know, I also think it's just really hard for people to know what's going on behind the curtain, because there's generally just a lot of greenwashing with, you know, all of these different terms that ultimately, people just don't really understand, whether that's like free-range, or pasture-range, or organic. In some cases, these terms don't even mean a whole lot. Like, by law, organic animals, they need to have "outdoor access," but this isn't necessarily that well-defined, and it could literally mean a small dirt lawn. And then, you know, something like pasture-raised, that's not even a legal term. So it's basically just like self-defined by the producers. So if you're not able to actually, like, visit the farm in question, it's very hard

• 21:53Abbey Sharp?

  for people to really get a sense of what's happening and what's actually going on. But just to clarify, because I think this, you know, is something that people don't realize, that a lot of these certifications cost farmers money. So, you know, not having an organic label does- Doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't upholding organic like standards, right?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. I know a ton of farms that choose to not be organic certified because of the additional paperwork and expense and nonsense that they have to go through to get that certification. So yeah, I mean, I know tons of farms that are like, we're not certified. I mean, like I was a livestock farmer and I sold meat directly to the consumer. And I mean, yeah, just because we don't have a fancy label doesn't mean, I mean, there's still, we're raised on pasture, still had tons of room to run around. I mean, very, very proud of what we're doing. And but yeah, I don't, there's definitely a lot of truth to that.

• 22:48Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, I, I feel like bottom line, you know, while our food system is certainly not perfect, it is still remarkably safe. And ultimately, I hope people are making choices based mostly on, you know, their budget predominantly rather than, you know, label claims, which can mean multiple things, or definitely not some fear mongering headline in their social feed.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:11Abbey Sharp?

  But thank you so much, Michelle. This was really, really fascinating. And I will be leaving links to where people can find all of your content because I always learn so much from you.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And vice versa. I love learning from you too. Thank you so much for everything you do and for having me today.

• 23:27Abbey Sharp?

  Okay, I don't know about you guys, but I feel like this conversation with Michelle has absolutely challenged some of my own assumptions. And I feel like it just really made me realize that so much of what we believe about food and farming isn't actually about facts, it's about feelings. You know, when we consider our society's collective relationship with food, you can appreciate how far removed most of us have become from the places and people who grow it. For most people, food now arrives just neatly packaged and pre-washed and algorithmically recommended. And our understanding of agriculture is shaped less by firsthand

• 24:11Abbey Sharp?

  experience and just more by the stories we consume online. That distance leaves a gap. And whenever there's a gap, there's an Opportunity for oversimplified narratives to slip in. Suddenly, we are told that there are good farmers and they are bad ones. There's clean food and there's dirty food. And the industrial scale that feeds billions is reduced to a villain in a black hat. But the truth is, as Michelle reminds us, it is so much more complex. And the same technologies and efficiencies that make Big Egg a target of suspicion

• 24:53Abbey Sharp?

  are also what keeps grocery shelves stocked and food prices relatively stable in a fragile global system. It is very easy, from an urban lens, to romanticize the small factory farm and demonize the large one. But ultimately, that just oversimplifies both. There is privilege embedded in rejecting industrial food when it's actually precisely that infrastructure that allows parents the ability to buy their kids fruits and vegetables without being late on rent. If we truly want a food system that is sustainable, ethical, and equitable, we have to start by closing that empathy gap.

• 25:38Abbey Sharp?

  Not just between eaters and farmers, but between perception and reality. And that means being willing to be curious rather than automatically cynical. To look past the aesthetics of "natural" and "homegrown" and ask harder questions about what actually works on a large and long-term scale. But on that note, a big thank you again to Michelle for helping me to bite back against misinformation. And if you're looking for a no BS, simple and evidence-based approach for building balanced meals and snacks without drama, my brand new book, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, is coming out in January,

• 26:22Abbey Sharp?

  just a few short weeks away. And I would be so appreciative if you would preorder, because honestly, pre-orders make such a big difference in the success. Success of a book. And if you preorder today, you're going to get my free Hunger Crushing Combo Holiday Survival Guide ebook. So definitely check out the link in the description to claim your freebie. And on that note, signing off with Science and SaaS, I'm Abbey Sharp. Thanks for listening.