Google's AI Narrative Is Flipping, Microsoft Hedges Its OpenAI Bet, AI Clones Are Here

Ranjan Roy from Margins is back for our weekly discussion of the latest tech news. We cover 1) The Solar Eclipse! 2) AI Music generation software Suno 3) Google flipping of its AI narrative 4) Ranjan's reflections from Google Cloud Next 5) Is Google's AI enterprise bet the right strategy 6) Microsoft hedging its OpenAI bet 7) Implications of Mustafa Suleyman's remit within Microsoft 8) OpenAI fires leakers 9) Eliezer Yudkowsky refuses interview and his reps won't pick up the phone 10) AI model training running out of data 11) Prospects of synthetic data for AI training 12) The Humane AI pin flops 13) Can Sam Altman and Jony Ive build an AI device 14) Cloning ourselves with AI. ---- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack? Here’s 40% off for the first year: https://tinyurl.com/bigtechnology Questions? Feedback? Write to: [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  Is Google flipping its AI narrative? And how seriously is Microsoft hedging its OpenAI bet? Are humane AI pin flops? And are AI clones the next big thing? All that more coming up on an AI-focused edition of the Big Technology Podcast Friday Show, all after this. This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put Agentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis Chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, Head of Enterprise Business Solutions at Voya Financial,

• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  to go inside a large-scale Agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions, trade-offs, and lessons along the way. You can watch both conversations now on my YouTube channel today. It's never been more challenging to get frontier compute. How do you know where to look? Who to trust? Or how much to pay? Akash is an open cloud that provides easy access, flexibility, and peace of mind. That's how companies like Razor were able to cut their inference cost by 15 times. Visit akash.network/alex for a free consultation. That's akash.network/alex for a free consultation. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond.

• 1:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  We're doing this Friday style. We got Ronjohn Roy and I, one-on-one for the first time in a month. An AI-heavy show. Ronjohn, welcome to the show.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  This week, or today, I'm in New York, but I am just back from Las Vegas at Google Cloud Next and excited to talk about AI, Google, humane, all these things.

• 1:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  We have so much AI to talk about, which is great. Right off the back of the Jack Clark, Anthropic co-founder interview. So that's coming up. First of all, last week, we talked right in the wake of earthquake. This week, in the wake of the eclipse. Pretty cool thing. I drove up with my father to go see the eclipse. We're both kind of astronomy nerds. And just to be there as the sun disappeared behind the moon was was pretty special. So I, you know, I know we have a global audience and a lot of people who listen are on the West Coast, but and I'm sure you're all sick of hearing it at this point. But definitely worth seeing once in your life, for sure.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Well, I'm even more sick of hearing it, Alex, because I was flying to Las Vegas for this conference and I had Wi-Fi on the flight and Delta Wi-Fi actually worked pretty good. So shout out to Delta and all I did was see nonstop messages about how life-changing this was from every single person I knew. And I live in New York all the time and everyone enjoyed it. So, so I'm glad it was, uh, it was that good.

• 2:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  There was this, listen, there was this Vanity Fair reporter, Delia Kai, who was actually in jury duty during the eclipse and tweeted about how annoyed she was that she was serving on a murder trial while the eclipse was taking place. And then she tweeted, but I'm glad I got a chance to look at the hot FBI agent among us. They threw her off the case.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Jury duty.

• 3:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Pretty amazing. That's one of my favorite stories of the week. One more thing before we dive into the heavy tech stuff. I tried Suno, this AI song generator, and it's incredible. It is so, so good. It blew my mind how good it actually is.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I told you, I would put, and actually there's Sonato last week when we were talking with Zeke about it, Suno, but I've tried now both. They're both pretty equivalent. For me, I'm gonna put it, I'm gonna put it out here. Chat GPT, then Mid Journey, and now Suno slash Sonato and Musical Creation. These are the three most magical moments with generative AI I've experienced. Text, then images, and now music. It reached that same level of just, wow, I can't believe this is happening and how very, very good this is.

• 4:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  I couldn't believe how good it was. And I actually asked it to write a little jingle about our Friday shows with a very generic prompt, and it made this great song called Tech Talk Showdown. Let me see if I can.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Us here. Alex is surprising me with this one.

• 5:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  This thing is amazing.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  It's nuts. No, I mean, even the the ability of it to get that kind of like momentum into the chorus and the buildup in the chorus. And even when you specify that kind of stuff, it still blows my mind. My one note that I've already learned after playing with this stuff is I have to now, my name is spelled R A N J A N, but I have to spell it R O N J O H N to get it to, uh, to get it to do it right. Yeah, no, I'm starting to-

• 5:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  I had to play with it a couple of times to get it to do your name right as well.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  It's all about the prompting. It's all about the prompting. But this stuff, I cannot believe how good it is already.

• 5:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's incredible. You know, one of the things that's amazing to me is that I'm still amazed by tech breakthroughs in like a world where like you'd think you would just get numb to them. But this stuff is still just, it blows your mind how good it how good it is in so many different disciplines. You're right. Chat, image generation, now song creation. And we're eventually going to see video creation, which is going to be nuts.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  We'll see it when it comes. Again, this it almost made me more. And I'm sure when we start talking about Google Cloud Next and other other events like this or other news, it makes me more wish we don't get demos and we just get the real thing and we get to play with it. Because even Sora now, we've talked about it. And it looks amazing. And I think it probably will be very good. But, but I just want to start playing with this stuff as soon as possible.

• 6:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Totally. So I definitely want to get into your experience at Google Cloud Next. But I also want to frame it in a way that it kind of maybe you'll be able to give your reflections through a question, right? So here's the question that I have. Do you think Google is flipping its AI narrative around? And I wrote about it this week in Big Technology Podcast. I'll just say the night of the big cloud keynote on Tuesday, I was at a dinner with a bunch of reporters and three public tech company CEOs, including Aaron Levy from Box and the CEOs of MongoDB and Datadog. And Google came up in like the context of like, well, they didn't lock Anthropic down the same way that Microsoft did, and Anthropic is working with Amazon now. And the overriding feeling among the CEOs was, we're going to look back and be

• 7:14Alex Kantrowitz?

  confused at how Google has been so written off in this narrative. And they have the computing power, the personnel and the resources to be able to build the key foundational model that's going to effectively come into line or even exceed what's out there currently. And that will help power their business there. Now, again, like, I think even the conversations that we've had in the in the past few weeks about this are totally not invalid. Like, all the challenges still exist. But I do sort of think that it's starting to become accepted now that this is, this is going to be an area where Google is going to catch up in, and it's only a matter of time. So with that being said, I'm curious to hear

• 7:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  your perspective on it. And tell us a little bit about the event.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we have talked about this a lot on the show. And I definitely believe that generative AI that lives where you already are always has an inherent advantage. So Gemini existing in docs and sheets and slides in the workspace context is going to be an advantage. They did a lot, they showed a lot around Gemini in BigQuery and other areas of Google Cloud and coding assistance and data and analysis assistance. And I think that's going to be an advantage. So always the companies that have, you know, delivered the tools that you already work in will have a head start in this. But I think for me more, I went to the last Cloud Next Edition and it was only about 10 months ago.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Then they rushed this one up and or they got back to the regular schedule and now are doing it again in the spring. The last edition felt like demos and promises and this one felt like actual tools. And already I've been using Gemini in Workspace and I can talk about it and it's pretty exciting. I tested Gemini in BigQuery to try to have write SQL queries for me and it actually works. So I think this it was really good to see that it's for real. It's actually happening. What they're delivering, you can actually use and is no longer a demo. If we even think about it, nine months ago, it was Duet AI and Bard. And now we have one nice term that we can all talk about and it's Gemini. So I think Google is getting their stuff together.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  It's a it they definitely showed that they are they're delivering. I do think I but I did walk away thinking more the talk around size of foundation models, quality of foundation models, even in your Jack Clark episode, it really still did feel like there was this talk around arms race and the hunt tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in compute spend to create these foundation models. I really think is not as relevant as the productization of these tools. And I think that's what was exciting for me is to see the productization is moving pretty quickly, especially at that scale.

• 10:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, it is all about how you put it into production, right? And I even wrote about this today in Big Technology that that's going to be the big challenge for Google, right? Is it can it will definitely reach this parity of models and the question is going to be whether it can actually put that into play on products. So and by the way, we should also note that Google is at an all time high as we record in the stock market. And Ben Thompson, who writes Strategry, who we've talked about, he had called for Sundar Pichai's job a couple of weeks ago and now he's praising Sundar's, basically Google's play at Cloud Next, talking about how it's going to rely on its infrastructure to push this AI.

• 10:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  So but let me go back then to our discussions around Gemini and the slow start. Do you think this was an inflection point where we now see that they're turning around? Or? And this is pretty interesting. Is it just that they're better at executing for enterprise than they are for consumer? It's gonna be a very interesting shift for Google. But one of the stories that I saw was that people have a lot more control. For instance, with image generator for enterprise, the Gemini image generator, and they've never had an issue like they had before. And this this might be the case. I'm curious to hear your perspective on on how this all shakes out and where the company stands on that front.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Wait, that that's a really interesting point because, again, I was at Cloud Next and Google Cloud still, which includes Google Workspace. So all the, you know, docs and sheets and slides, tools and everything else is essentially the enterprise division of Google Cloud of Google. And to me, they are rolling out Gemini and generative AI in a pretty strategic, methodical way and an effective way versus we saw the Gemini consumer facing image rollout and all the chaos that kind of, you know, went along with it. So so maybe it is affected and it would be good for them both from a stock market perspective and just, I think, overall

• 12:13Speaker 01

  as a direction of the company. Because I've always believed enterprise is where the real money is, or the only viable business models are in generative AI. So that if they are actually shifting more towards an enterprise focused company, which the revenue of the Google Cloud division, I mean, it went from $5 billion to $36 billion in just, I think, four or five years, would also show. I think that could be that could be the real direction Google is because we always thought of them as a consumer company for years while Microsoft was the enterprise giant. And now it looks like maybe they are shifting to at least more of an enterprise company.

• 12:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, it definitely is impressive that they've been able. Last year was their first profitable year on cloud. And they've definitely now they're now forced, like they're not an afterthought. There was people that were telling me they should be selling off cloud and it was a failure. Now it's profitable. They had record quarter in the fourth quarter. They beat expectations. And we actually spoke about this again at this dinner that I was at on Tuesday. I asked this question. I was like, Google Cloud has been known to not be really good at sales. And if this is going to be, if AI is going to be, the value of AI is going to be unlocked in enterprise. Then why would they be better off, even if they had a better model, right? Than Amazon or Microsoft, because those companies are used to, especially Microsoft, are used to selling this technology into enterprises.

• 13:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Is there something that's shifting within Google that's like making you think that they have a better chance? Or of being able to sell in cloud? I mean, or something that's powering? The fact that they've had this cloud turnaround, like what is happening on that? Because this is on that front, this is the most important thing. They're gonna face a margin decrease in search, no matter what. Like even if Google search remains dominant, they're gonna not make, you know, the margins that they were making before, so they need to make it up in cloud. So, so tell us a little bit about what's going on with that division of the company.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so as we have talked about Sundar's future many times in this podcast, and as you mentioned, Ben Thompson, and among many others questioning it. If they very strategically, and there's no reporting around this and total speculation, but I mean, if they actually did forecast the decline of search or the unpredictable future of search, which I think we all agree, none of us know what search will look like a year or two from now. Already, you know, for me, I've moved much more towards generative chatbots for any kind of search type query.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  So if you really recognize, if Sundar is driving the idea that it's unpredictable, we don't know what the search business model is going to be. So let's start diversifying more towards enterprise and cloud. That's pretty amazing, because it looks like that's what they're doing. So, so in terms of flipping the script and the narrative, if, if like, you know, six to 12 months, we find out from now, we find out that this was all a very clear strategic push. I think Sundar will be sitting okay for a while and pretty confidently.

• 15:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  But how many tech giants can eat off of the move to cloud, right? Because Microsoft did it, now that's Microsoft's business. Amazon did it, now that's Amazon's business. Is cloud a big enough business to sustain? Three tech giants?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  No, but cloud, so that there's, you know, the actual cloud services and kind of like, you know, data storage and processing and just more general cloud service type revenue. But to me, it's the entry point to every other enterprise service. Again, even the, you know, the more business consumer facing segment of workspace or Microsoft Office 365, you know, that's just one extension of cloud or the enterprise. So to me, it's less, the name cloud is almost a misnomer versus it's more Google enterprise. So I think there's any type of enterprise service can then go live in that division. And to me, there's no shortage. In fact, I mean, you could even imagine, again, total speculation here, but like, I was just

• 16:17Speaker 01

  seeing in Accenture's numbers, I think they reported that they had $600 million in services for generative AI. So just imagine like the amount of business needs that are growing as companies try to have some kind of AI transformation and any kind of service you can provide around guiding companies, whether it's actual products or services or consulting or knowledge, whatever it is, if you become that kind of guiding force for every large enterprise towards the AI transformation, it's, it's a pretty interesting proposition.

• 16:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  So give your one to 10 rating of where you thought Google was coming into this week and where you think they are now, one being in real trouble and 10 being in amazing shape.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  I would put it going in around a four and a half to five and coming out maybe a six to seven. I really did, it flipped the script for me. I, I mean, one thing, and just to kind of like bring folks into Vegas, it is still somewhat, I almost want to say disarming where you're in like the keynote, you're in Allegiant Stadium. You walk in, I think there's like maybe There's like fifteen, sixteen thousand people in there. It's so loud. It feels like, like a Tiesto concert or something like that. Just it's kind of, it's almost comical how over the top the production value is. And then they cut like Thomas Curry and the CEO of

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Google Cloud walks out, Sundar's on the screen. Again, this is not Google, Google. This is Google Cloud. And then, you know, like, it's still funny to me, too. They announced their new ARM-based processor chip and two guys next to me actually high-fived. They were so excited.

• 18:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  That is weird.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, and one guy actually said, this is fire. I will never forget that moment. It was amazing. People were very excited. And, and to me, again, the most important transition, because I had a direct reference point from nine months ago, it was all demos. And now it's actual stuff. Again, and I said, Gemini workspace, already, this is all I wanted. And now I actually have used it and it's happening. Now, if I'm in the, the beta testing group of Gemini workspace, you have a right panel, you can click on it in a slide deck, say, okay, you know, summarize this deck for me,

• 18:44Speaker 01

  even pull numbers out of charts that are in the deck, or even be like, you know, based on this marketing deck, create me 10 taglines, and it, marketing campaign taglines, and it will do it directly from unstructured data that you have. You can do the same in docs. Like, so, so being able to connect all these different tools they have and pieces is going to be their advantage. Even another thing they showed was, within, you can be in Google Docs, and let's say all of your company's data lives in Google Cloud or Big Query, you can directly, you know, pull data from your company's actual databases into your presentations and docs. That is something that no other, I mean, other than a Microsoft, almost no other company will be able to do.

• 19:30Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, there was also some other cool stuff like you could write, you can kind of do like a scratch pad where you would like write the type of email that you'd want to write and it would just produce if you, I guess it's like a prompt thing, but you would like write an email like you would write a text and it would turn that into a formal email, which I thought was was interesting. But yeah, lots of interesting things. I would say I started the week out kind of a little bit more optimistic than you. Five point five, it's like five to six on Google and now I think I'm at a six, seven. It was an impressive week without a doubt.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  It's all they can ask for. They, both of the big technology folks, they moved up the scale.

• 20:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  Gemini guys now, I guess.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Gemini. I'm still a bard boy at heart.

• 20:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  Bard boy. Well, yeah, you could keep living that dream.

• 20:14Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm surprised they didn't have it in the sphere, by the way. Did you get a chance to go to the sphere?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  I saw it from the outside. I wanted to, I was, I wish actually now that I went in, they have apparently this like Darren Aronofsky film. I did not go in, but Google actually for one of the day, one of the nights had the sphere and had this whole Google cloud visual on the sphere. And, and I went with a group of people and we like looked at it. It's, it's pretty visually stunning. Yeah, I want to go to, did you go in?

• 20:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  I went to U2 there.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Oh, wait, you went to U2?

• 20:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Exactly. Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool watching it.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to go back, go to a concert there. Definitely. That's on the agenda now.

• 20:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  When we have the big, big technology next, we can get tickets for a show, you know, we're gonna.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  We should, we should host a Friday show at the sphere.

• 21:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  At the sphere, without a doubt.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Only way to do it.

• 21:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Jim Dolan, if you're listening, and I know you are, let's speak after this, whatever theater is, I'm sure we can cover it.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  But, but I will say midweek Las Vegas was kind of depressing. It was pretty empty. It was, I, this, if anyone from Google's listening, my only feedback would be, I don't think Vegas is the place for cloud next. It was a, there's no one in the casinos other than the 30,000 people attending cloud and cloud next. And, and I don't think any of these people gamble or play the tables or walk around the casino. So.

• 21:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  And you were there on your, on your DraftKings app being like, man, I'm just gonna keep playing till they ban this prop bets on college players.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  I it was it was actually interesting in terms of the the MGM sportsbook. They, when you walk in, there's like 10 people as you walk in that are trying to get you to download the app. So even like rather than placing a bet directly at the sportsbook.

• 22:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, that's fascinating.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, they everywhere in the entire physical sportsbook, there's someone with like a T shirt and a sign on that's trying to get you to download the MGM sportsbook app, which I did. And you get 25 free bucks or whatever. Yeah.

• 22:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's how they get you, Ron John.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 22:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  This is all again, it's Chris Christie thing. So thanks, Chris Christie.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Thanks, Chris Christie.

• 22:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  We gotta have our Chris Christie shout out every show. Let's talk about this very interesting news coming out of Microsoft. Speaking of Google's AI play, Microsoft's AI play is actually quite getting quite interesting. So they obviously brought in Mustafa Suleyman, who was a DeepMind co-founder to run consumer AI there. But it also really kind of caps off the series of different moves that Google's made to try to, what I would say is hedge its bet on OpenAI. I would say last year this time, they were all in on OpenAI. Now, if you look at where the dots are going and try to connect them, it looks like the hedge is coming. And I'm curious how big of a hedge. So by the way, this is just from the information. So they

• 23:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  say, while Microsoft remains staunchly committed to its partnership with OpenAI, which exclusively powers Microsoft's first party AI apps such as Copilot, it has also ramped up its own small model development, and it continues to expand the catalog of models available through its Azure cloud platform. This week, Microsoft made Cohere's large language model available in Azure. And last month, the company made headlines with a splashy deal with French AI company Mistral. Okay, so.

• 23:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Everywhere you look, Microsoft seems to, I think, and I would argue smartly, be hedging the OpenAI bet and saying, no matter what happens to OpenAI, we're going to be in good shape. And Satya talked about how like during the Sam Altman crisis, that they were fine, but I don't think they were as fine as he wanted them to be. And I think he's trying to get them there with these moves. You add all this to the fact that Suliman is in there and we're going to go a little bit deeper into what his remit is inside Microsoft and you're left with like a very clear picture. I would say that they're, they're trying very hard to hedge that OpenAI bet. What would you say?

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's both hedging, but it's also, this is what enterprise generative AI will look like going forward. Cause another thing that, I mean, kept coming up at the cloud next, but also is relevant for Microsoft is these models can be very expensive and costing is going to become a much, much bigger deal as companies actually operationalize this. So being able to, and actually Mistral, the French company, they've already made a big deal that supposedly they've discovered or some new way of processing data or whatever that makes their models cheaper. So they're already using cost as a direct advantage or a competitive differentiation. So I think if you're Microsoft, if you're Google,

• 25:11Speaker 01

  you have to offer tons in every single possible model because for different use cases, as companies actually bring this to scale, the cost is going to become such a big issues that they're going to, you know, want to use different models for different purposes. Even within OpenAI, you know, or any other of these big foundation model companies, they have plenty of different models that solve different problems at different costs. So, so I think it's no question that betting all their chips on one company, OpenAI, especially one that's had some very interesting corporate governance affairs over the last six to 12 months. I mean, they have to do this.

• 25:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And then you look at what Suliman is. So we're getting some more information about what Suliman is tasked with inside Microsoft. And we spoke about it a little bit when Jessica Lessin was here, when the, right when the deal first happened. But now the information is published in the same story, a little bit more specific. So. This is from the story Microsoft historically has struggled to turn its own AI research into commercial products. That has prompted Nadel to make a bold bet on OpenAI to supply state of the art technology for enterprise apps like Office. Suliman's arrival provides Microsoft with an opportunity to go after another large market AI services for consumers, a moment when it faces intense pressure from Google, OpenAI, and other

• 26:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  leading rivals to win over everyday users. So that's interesting that they would even include OpenAI as a rival there. And, and this is really it. So you have OpenAI for enterprise, Microsoft and inflection for consumer. And they're sitting, and this is from the story, they're sitting among search, advertising, news, edge, and MSN teams. There's 60 inflection employees that have come along, including Suliman. Now, of course, it was a failed company, right? For all intents and purposes, it was failed. But again, like, if you're thinking about like where OpenAI was positioned when it comes to Microsoft, yeah, of course, they're doing enterprise and that left open for, you know, room for

• 27:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  consumer, but it really just seems like this might pigeonhole them. It's a very significant amount of responsibility that they're giving to the inflection team. And even people within Microsoft are looking at Suliman and being like, wait, we thought we had competent leaders. Why did you have to aquihire effectively this guy and his company in order to make this consumer push? What do you think about all that?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Well, that, that's a very, I hadn't thought about before, the idea that 60 to 70 inflection employees are now going to across search and advertising and the browser and MSN, which I always forget that there is a whole team around that. I mean, that

• 27:59Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm not doing an MSN episode, just a Yahoo episode.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  No MSN episodes. Sorry, people. Sorry, listeners. I think, like, if you think about organizationally, so yeah, Microsoft has gotten to such a place of like competent leadership, at least in terms of perception, that from the outside, all of us are like, the way they've executed strategically over the last decade has just been incredible. So but then if you are bringing in a team and you have to assume everyone from Inflection who's coming over is friendly with each other, trusts each other. Anytime you bring in a team like this. So to actually disperse them across other teams feels like you are trying to shake things up and disrupt things a little bit and give

• 28:45Speaker 01

  influence to Suliman, as you said. So, so I think it's a that that actually makes it feel like an even bigger bet than if they just Aqua hired them, kind of put them in the corner somewhere and said, do some AI stuff. This really feels like they're actually trying to shake the trees of the organization. Yeah.

• 29:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, which is interesting. It's like, well, and I think people from Microsoft are rightfully wondering, why, why do we need this? You know, they're the most valuable company in the world and everything seemed to be pointing up. But clearly, leadership there felt that it was a need. And then, you know, there we even talked about a few few months ago about how or a few weeks ago about how OpenAI, you know, would still, first of all, OpenAI, we talk a lot about the instability in OpenAI because it's important. It's still the leading AI research house. Like, don't get me wrong on that front. And I wouldn't make the argument otherwise. But it does have this just ongoing risk. And it showed itself again today. Anyone who said this stuff was over with Altman, well, they just fired two researchers for

• 29:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  leaking information. And that includes, let's see, it includes someone who was closely tied to effective altruism, Leopold Aschenbrenner. And apparently, what happened is that there was a disagreement within OpenAI about whether the company was developing AI safety, AI safely enough. And these two researchers leaked. And they are very close to effective altruism, of course, right? And

• 30:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  And now they're out and they're also sorry, they're also close to Ilya Sutskever. That's the key point. They are Ilya Sutskever allies. Ilya is the chief scientist at OpenAI. We haven't heard anything from him pretty much since the fall. So he remains kind of hidden. We don't really know what he's going to do there. He's obviously a core part of OpenAI, although OpenAI will be fine, I think, without him. But it would be a blow if he ended up leaving. I still predict that he's going to leave. But it's interesting to see that his allies are getting tossed over leaking.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  But we haven't, we haven't even heard. One thing that's disappointing to me is this whole drama apparently took place. And this is again, a reminder that Leopold Aschenbrenner and the other guy, you know, Pavel Ismailov, who were fired, you know, worked on AI safety. The entire drama was around the idea that Sam Altman was pushing too hard. And apparently Q Star and other discoveries presented such, you know, grievous risk to humanity's future that people felt they had to take action. I still want to know what's going on there. Like, what do they have that caused people to react that strongly? There's a bit of reporting, I think, when it first came out around Q Star.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  But is OpenAI sitting on the next, I don't know what kind of AI knowledge or terrifying things? I mean, because I feel it's pretty important. I would like to know if humanity is truly threatened and they actually already cracked AGI and we should all be terrified or if it was all just a bit of drama.

• 31:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, let's be honest, like humanity is not threatened at this point. We haven't cracked AGI. There's no way that that would have been kept a secret. But it does seem like this was about the Q Star thing. And I don't know for certain. I have no, this is complete speculation. But in the middle of the Altman firing weekend, or right at the end, actually, this Q Star news leaked and Reuters had the story. And I bet that this is still fallout from that. So. But the reasoning, the idea that this stuff is doing reasoning is very interesting. I mean, this is something that OpenAI, you know, no one really has talked about. I think Mistral apparently might have, or Meta, might have come out with something. And hopefully we'll get to that on a future show. But, um, but you're right.

• 32:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  We don't know anything about it because despite the open name, and again, we go back to that. They are not being very open about it. In fact, the people that want more discussion have been fired. But maybe that's, you know, for in terms of the public conversation, maybe that'll end up being a benefit. Because, you know, as soon as that happens, I'm sure, including myself, a lot of reporters try to connect with these people. Trying to get them to say a little bit more about what was concerning them inside the company and they'll definitely speak.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Well, that idea around like, are we really close to AGI? One thing from your Jack Clark episode that really stuck out to me is, is the, how, I'm going to say dualistic in nature of this technology is. But, but it is the idea that, well, he made this point. And I think anyone who's ever like researching L L Ms or just thinking about them, especially from the layperson's side. It's actually kind of an un-amazing, not an amazing intellectual discovery. Next token prediction, just trying to predict the next letter or the next pixel. And that's why, and, and even at Cloud Next, when I was talking to more traditional machine learning people.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  You do see this kind of like scoffing at L L M technology because it's actually not that intellectually interesting. It's actually like a really, and the fact that it works. And when, and when he was saying this, both it struck, it stuck out to me both because I see that attitude from traditional machine learning people. But also because in a way that does make it maybe a little bit scarier because it's not supposed to work this well. And people are still kind of confused at how well it works and how, even though just predicting the next token seems so basic and not interesting. It does, it created, created us this jingle to start the show.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  So, so I think it both made me like, it brought a more grounding to the technology. But it also made me more, I don't want to say scared, but at least curious about what makes it so good.

• 34:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And look, I think, here's what I will say. I think that the skeptics here and the critics here would have more credibility if they would be open to speaking with people outside of their bubble and taking some tough questions because they do do a tremendous amount of speculation like these these thought exercises like Eliezer Yudkowsky, for instance, right? Who's like this high priest of AI doom, you know, keeps talking about these like really fanciful, you know, I would say almost delusional ideas of how the AI is going to kill us. Meanwhile, I can't get a sentence right, right now. And although it is getting better. And I've tried real hard to get in touch with funders of people

• 35:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  behind this, like, for instance, the AI research pause that Jack and I spoke about. And to get in touch with Eliezer Yudkowsky himself to try to say, hey, listen, like, I've been skeptical of this stuff. Obviously, I've written about it. I've talked about it on the show. But I have an open mind. And I want to, like, that's the job is to speak with people who I'm kind of skeptical of and say, all right, let's, let's talk about what's going on. And because we have had some comments like, hey, try to take this seriously. And all right, I'll take it seriously. But I want to hear from those people. So again, strike out just to get on the phone, basically, with someone who was funding, I think Dustin Moskowitz, we tried to get him on the show. He was funding a lot of this AI fear stuff, and he obviously didn't come on.

• 36:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  And then I reached out to Yudkowsky. He gave me the email address to his, his media team. This all happened this week. They turned down the interview request. Okay, no problem. And they said, we'll talk on background with you if you want. So I said, all right, I'd welcome a call. Right? That's the job. They refuse to pick up the phone. They won't pick up the phone there. I'm not kidding. It's insane. They will say, they said, we're, I'm not a, you know, we were not talking. If you have any questions, send us an email. I mean, like, if you're, if your whole thing is these intellectual arguments, like,

• 36:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Pick up the phone. You know, you're even this sort of thing, even critics today want to save space and critics that want to save space. I just can't take them that seriously. And you know what? Credit to Sam Altman, by the way, he was in Congress this week, walks out of some senator's office, CNBC camera and a microphone in his face. Totally, I don't think he was waiting for it to come. And he walked down the hall with them and took like three minutes of questions about what he was up to, what he's been doing in the Middle East, his desire for regulation. Like to me, if you, I think that's admirable. Hiding behind, you know, comms people who won't pick up the phone to me is, is sort of, I would say, I wouldn't call it definitive proof, but circumstantial

• 37:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  proof that the ideas behind these, these, you know, ultimate doom. And I'm not talking about Jack Clark, I'm talking about the doomer movement. The ideas behind them are thin.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Well, also, if you genuinely believe you have some hidden or insider insight that potentially threatens the future of humanity, you would think you would want to talk to everyone about it and not, not Yeah, pick up the phone. If someone's interested in learning more and you are the one who can potentially save humanity, pick up the phone. That's

• 37:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Unserious. It's totally unserious. And I'm sure the book deals will be nice for them and whatever they'll keep getting money from, from billionaires who like, you know, want to do something with their time. But ultimately, like, look, it's not like the leaders of the companies, whether it's, you know, Jack Clark, or, you know, whoever it is, are afraid to come on the show. They'll take the questions. It's amazing to me how the critics have become so difficult to get on the line. And, you know, let's talk about something that's going to happen, which is, you know, potentially, you know, limiting the momentum here, and really gives you a problem if you're saying that these LLMs are, you know, the next step to blowing up the world. And that is that these companies are

• 38:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  seeming to run out of data. There was a great, great New York Times story this week about all the different moves that every single AI research house has made. To to try to get more data because they're effectively running out. And there's an amazing quote from this guy, Si Dammel, who was a lawyer that represented or represents Andreessen Horowitz. He goes, "The only practical way for these tools to exist is if they can be trained on massive amounts of data without having to license that data. That data needed is so massive that even collective licensing really can't work. And you're starting to see that in action, whether that's OpenAI building this tool

• 39:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  called Whisper, which has been used to transcribe YouTube videos and feed that into the models and help train them. Meta, for instance, thought about buying the publishing house, Simon & Schuster, to have long works, like books, that they could use to train. And even Google has broadened the terms of its service. And this is this is from the Times. "One motivation for that change was to allow Google to be able to tap publicly available Google Docs, restaurant reviews on Google Maps and other material for more of its AI products." So it is interesting. Hold the horses on AI, dude. We might not even have enough data to train the next iteration of these models.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Well, this is where it's so tough for me because on one side, again, general purpose, consumer-facing AI has to answer everything for everyone. So it does essentially need all the data. And I mean, this is going to get more interesting for especially us watching from the sidelines, you know, for the New York Times versus OpenAI or, I mean, anyone else, even again, like, does Google, is Google allowed to scrape YouTube transcripts but not OpenAI? What's public, what's not public is going to get even more interesting. But but I also think, in the end, to me, and from what I've seen in practice, for most use cases, small data sets that are trained on small models will solve problems. And I sound like a broken record on it, but...

• 40:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, it's good. Keep hammering that home.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's a lot less interesting than... My favorite part of this story was Justine Bateman.

• 40:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, yes.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  If people, anyone who's of age, including myself, who was, she was Mallory on Family Ties, if I remember correctly. So I'm going to have to look that one up to confirm it, but has now become a kind of anti-AI copyright.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Activist influencer type. And it's always weird to me how certain people get involved in certain things, but she's coming out against it. And yeah, it's going to become more of a topic and it will need to be resolved. And there's going to need to be some rules and legislation, regulation around it. And I think it still presents a major threat, especially to OpenAI, where that's their entire business. And they probably are more aggressive than anyone in getting here. But I still think in the medium term, let's say, this is not going to be the problem that a lot of people think it is.

• 41:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  And what do you think about synthetic data, basically data that the AI creates that will be used to train? Do you think there's potential there?

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've done it myself. And like, if you're fine tuning a model, coming up with writing, handwriting 10 outputs that are the ideal output, and then saying, using this, generate me another 50 outputs, and then tweaking those a little bit, and then doing another 100 outputs and like, using that, it works. It works well. If it's done in a very, you know, thoughtful, careful way. So I think it's going to become even more of a of a thing, you know, like, and it and it can have very valuable uses. So I think, and again, and it will not violate any kind of copyright or anything else. So I think that's going to be a really interesting space. And companies who kind of do that

• 42:41Speaker 01

  well for other companies, that could be, that's, that's my next, maybe the 2024, 2025 hot company area, the synthetic data creators.

• 42:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, no, that that will definitely, I think they'll be able to solve a problem there. And the Times article had Sam Altman saying, you know, we'll figure it out. And kind of like, frame that as like, we'll figure it out because we'll be able to like, steal the data and somehow, I mean, maybe that was part of it. But also, the other side of it was, we'll figure it out technically. And that's why I think the synthetic data, AI created data, could end up solving these problems. One thing that will assuredly not destroy the world is this Yumene AI pin, which we've talked about on the show in the past. And I almost skipped over this week, but we have to talk about. So the Yumene AI pin is this wearable, if you're, if you pay attention to tech, you've probably seen the terrible reviews of it this week. But basically,

• 43:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's an AI pin. You pin it on your shirt. You can take photos. You can talk to it. You can ask it what you're looking at. You can ask it for information, et cetera, et cetera. And it was roundly derided by reviewers. Here's the Verge. The humane AI pin review, not even close. Should you buy this thing? That's easy. Nope. Nuh-uh. No way. The AI pin is an interesting idea that is so thoroughly unfinished and so totally broken in so many unacceptable ways that I can't think of anyone to whom I'd recommend spending the $699 for the device and the $24 monthly subscription. Ouch.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we had talked about this before and we were even a bit at least hopeful for it, but the reviews are not good. And I do think it's again, it's a, it's a, to get this right, you need to have general purpose LLMs being able to answer all types of queries and questions. Like if you're not giving the user any really clear guidance on what does this do exactly and what should you do with it? And instead, promise it does everything. It's a problem to start. But again, in the reviews, just technologically, the like wireless connection or the data transfer and the answer of times was very slow and laggy and didn't even work a lot of the time. So getting that basic infrastructure,

• 44:56Speaker 01

  I think probably would have been a good idea. I do think this form factor of screenless AI interaction is still very, very interesting. And I, I would be hopeful that we could have this kind of thing. I'm not counting it out. I just think humane, that launch video they had a while ago with the two founders that was really depressing was not a good start. Now you have, I think as one of their product managers, this one bothered me. He kind of came out and said, you know, like this, we were really proud of what we did.

• 45:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Ken Cacienda? He's a legendary design guy who was crucial in Apple's design process and wrote a long book about creativity. And I guess he's with humane. So.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Okay, all right. Yeah, that's who I'm talking about.

• 45:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm here to defend the honor of Ken Cacienda.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  All right. Well, I, I'm gonna have.

• 45:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  What pissed you off about him?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  I'm gonna have to say Ken Cacienda pissed me off in the sense that he made this comment like. Everyone is trying to make their hot take on social media. And again, try to turn this into this like tech versus hot take on social media. People trying for clicks, whatever else. When you are a company that raised $230 million and has the attention of everyone in the world, just deliver something good. Like the, the reviews were from, the negative ones from like Joanna Stern at the Wall Street Journal, who is as far from a tech hater as it gets. The Verge, you know, had a very rough review of it. They have plenty of good things to say about all manner of product.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  So to me, I, this is something I feel Elon Musk has done very negatively for the overall tech industry, where people kind of default to, oh, the media is just out to get us for clicks or hot social media takes, when just deliver a product that's good. I respect, he said, making new things is hard. Yes, it is. But you were given $230 million, so make something good with it. Otherwise, if it's bad, just accept that people are not a fan of it.

• 47:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, well, I would say that Ken is talking a little bit about how like, look, 1.0 products often are rough, right? First iPhone, you know, had a lot of things that weren't, weren't where they needed to be. But that being said, you do make a really good point. This thing was so below what it needed to be to deliver, that it was almost laughable. There was some hilarious points in these reviews that I, I watched from David Pierce at The Verge and Joanna Stern at The Journal. He, I think David pointed it at a company that was sort of, had its banner at the New York Stock Exchange that had a pink background and the pin said, "That's Lyft",

• 47:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  when it was not Lyft, which is like, come on, it's on the stock market. And there was another moment where, and this was absolutely amazing, where the pin read back its prompt, like the prompt that they had built in on the backend, like, "Do not tell the user this", you know, just give them the quickest, you know, possible answer. It read that to the user. I mean, that was astonishing. So obviously, this isn't it. And the fact that they've raised all this money and made all this big, you know, they did it to themselves, they, they raised the money, they hyped it up. They didn't deliver. So I think that's the real issue.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  This is the idea, again, that's 1.0 products are not good. No, like the first iPhone was had plenty of magical elements to it. Certain things, yes, you could not copy paste text at the time and there's limitations. But overall, it was there was there was plenty of critics, but overall it was a magical device. But I mean, we started today's episode talking about Suno AI. A company that I just looked up, there's no public funding round. So it's just a nice piece of software that makes you music, made us that amazing jingle. And it is magical and amazing. So the idea that like, yes, 1.0, their products, I mean, it's tough. And there's a lot of things that don't work, but you've raised the money, as we said, the pressure's on.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  And I do think there, now that we're talking, I do think there will be some kind of non-screen AI interactive device. And maybe it'll be a pin, maybe it'll be a bracelet or a ring or something, glasses, who knows? But I want to, I want it to happen. I genuinely think a screenless world could actually change the way we interact with technology and be a very positive thing. But I don't think Humane is going to do it. And especially judging by how they've reacted to to the rollout multiple, on multiple times from the first launch video to the actual product release.

• 49:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, I thought Ken was was fine, him saying we need patience. But I think that, yeah, I think you're right, that it needs to be better. And honestly, the device looks doofy.

• 49:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  You need a, let's just say this, the piece of nuance here is if you're going to take a swing at hardware, you need to raise a lot of money. But you know, there's a chance that you end up as a magic leap as opposed to ending up as something else. So they, I mean, they've been at it since, I think, 2017. So they were just early. But let's talk about, there's another hardware, very interesting hardware initiative that's worth bringing up, which is that Johnny Ivey from Apple and Sam Altman, they are talking to VC companies about money. And this is again, all the information, I mean, kudos to them, they're doing great work. A mysterious company started by former Apple designer Johnny Ivey and OpenAI CEO Sam Altman

• 50:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  to launch an artificial intelligence powered personal device has started funding talks with some of the biggest names in venture capital. And they say, okay, building the AI device would add a dizzying array of products, projects Altman is pursuing beyond OpenAI. They include a separate company that would develop manufactured chips. And he's also said privately that OpenAI would likely own a piece of the firm and be a customer of it. You know, one of the things, so first of all, I would say I would bet on Altman and Ivy for sure. As the group that could do this way more than you may, at least, and I think you're right. There is definitely going to be a need for this. That being said, like, let's, let's think about it, right? Because why, I'm just thinking about this from the Altman perspective.

• 51:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Why do this, all this outside of OpenAI? Is that the structure? Like, you would think that it would actually be better for OpenAI if this was all built within OpenAI and not as a separate customer. So what do you think about the initiative, first of all? And then, second of all, what about that question of where this lives?

• 51:34Speaker 01

  I'm going to take the second question first. I think Sam Altman, one thing I go back and forth on is great entrepreneurs understand momentum. Like, when you have the wind at your back, you go do more and more and more. And that's the, the great ones are the ones who understand that and, you know, like, do things that were completely unimaginable and unexpected and really drive with what they have. With Sam Altman is now going to raise, remember the trillion dollar raise from a few months ago?

• 52:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  Dude, seven trillion, come on.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Seven trillion, sorry, sorry. Or was that the valuation or was that the raise?

• 52:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  That was the raise.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Oh, that was the raise. He was, he's in the Middle East talking about chips. He's with Johnny, I'm talking about raising, and they're talking with Masayoshi Son of SoftBank, of course, of all people, about hardware. At a certain point, maybe you want to focus a little bit on which direction you're going. And all the momentum and you are the world's greatest AI celebrity and salesperson right now. But maybe I think slowing down a little bit would make sense. But in terms of being outside of OpenAI. He won like last time around, he started going outside of OpenAI and he's still CEO.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  So I think if there was any concern, he's already quashed it and he's going to do whatever he wants right now. And you can argue whether that's a good or a bad thing, but in terms of their corporate governance, he's been given not just the green light, but you know, it's like, go for it. Do whatever you think can raise and make money and you know, I think that's good. I think in a bit again, the hardware question, you're right. It takes a lot of money to deliver hardware. This is a pretty good dream team of the type of people that could, but I still want to believe that you remember Rabbit, the device that uh

• 53:30Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, that's starting to ship, I think, or the demo is ready.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I'm hoping still the next wave of a, this kind of AI form factor hardware is from some new, some new people, new minds, new, uh, new creative forces rather than the ones we've all seen. And I think it will be because it's just so different. So like, if you built, you know, like helped design the iPhone and the iPad and these screen based devices. I, I'm not sure if you're going to be able to completely rethink how people interact with non-screen devices. So maybe we need new, new blood here, new minds.

• 54:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, well, I, I don't know. The way that this stuff has been going, it always seems like the old guard gets unlimited hacks at it because of the resources needed. So I would bet on Altman, but we'll see. I mean, it's definitely, you're right. This stuff can come out of nowhere and it does take people envisioning new things. So it'll be fun to watch. All right. Speaking of stuff coming out of nowhere, people envisioning new things. I think we got to talk about AI clones just to end this. So um, there's this Sarah, uh, sorry, there's this San Francisco based entrepreneur. His name is Dara Lage. I think that's his, that's his full name. He just says Dara on Twitter, but he says, he's an entrepreneur and he says,

• 54:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  "So I met a girl in the marina last weekend and gave her the number to my dating clone. It successfully closed the first date for Saturday at 6:00 PM. Should I tell her that she was talking with my clone or see how long I can get away with it?" So basically I looked at this guy's company and You can actually like go to, hold on, I should find out what this company is called. But you could

• 55:16Speaker 01

  I think it's called the cloning company.

• 55:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  That is a great name.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  That's what's on his LinkedIn at least.

• 55:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  So basically what it does is create AI clones of of you and of other experts. And they basically just like can talk as you so they can give business advice. But I guess they can also like do the dating stuff and you look through the conversation. His clone is having with this woman and it's actually like fairly convincing. So I think here's how I feel about it ethically. I think ethically it's compromised, but I think the idea is interesting. Well, I would say interesting maybe outside of dating situations. And I think the tech has gotten to the point where it's good enough. Where we're going to start to see more and more of these AI clones out there. What do you think?

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Oh, so first of all, I just did check it. The company is called Delphi, the cloning company. But so Delphi, I, and it does appear that it exists and is a real company. Good for Dara on his marketing here of telling this story. And leading all of us to thinking about cloning and leading us to his company. I think it's a tough one because from a customer service perspective. We are all going to be talking to generative AI chatbots very soon. And I'm actually excited about that and hopeful for it. And I think it'll make things life easier and faster where there are all these set rules around what you can and cannot do. And then you just get to where you need to go in the customer service journey.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  It's weird because that's actually the exact kind of same corollary to this dating conversation. Because both of you have set expectations and rules. The two of them met out at a bar. Both of them have already decided whether or not they want to see the other person. At that point, it's just a logistics game. If you read, neither of them are saying anything particularly interesting. So it's all about getting to the point of having a plan. So is this conversation that ethically compromised? I don't know, maybe for you both have your organizational chatbot and you just connect the two of them together and it makes your plan for you. It's kind of like calendly on steroids.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  But, but of course, when it gets from here to the actual, you know, you've already gone on a couple of dates and you're talking about life and dreams and passions and you're talking to the clone, then it definitely starts to get kind of terrifying.

• 57:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, this is my point, that this stuff is just gonna start showing up all over the place. And, and you know, one thing I'll say is that his clone committed him to getting there early. This is great. I'll get there early and get a table or seats at the bar. Let's plan on 6pm.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  I, I, I am waiting for a viral TikTok of like two girls talking and one of them being like, when they find out that she's been talking to the clone and out the guy and then the guy goes, the video goes viral because you know that that's going to be a conversation.

• 58:30Alex Kantrowitz?

  Definitely.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  A couple of years from now, I can't believe it. I was talking to his clone the entire time.

• 58:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Not to mention, this guy is like a startup CEO and his AI just booked him 6pm dinner and he has to get there early. So you're telling me you're clocking out at, you know, in the five o'clock hour as a startup CEO? The fact that he would post that.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  That's not how you do it.

• 58:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's not blue flame, man. That is not blue flame. We don't like that.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  That's not 10x. That's not 10x.

• 58:59Alex Kantrowitz?

  Certainly not, but.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Derek, you got some work to do, but good for you on the marketing side.

• 59:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Talk about AI for good. Maybe that's the AI showing that you should have work-life balance and, you know, maybe he'll have a family and not a company. It could all end up picking up well for Derek.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good signaling mechanism.

• 59:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Derek's got an advanced foundation model there.

• 59:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  I dig it. All right, well, Raja, great week. We, we got, definitely got back to all the AI topics and we appreciate everybody hanging out with us again and we'll do it again next week. How does that sound?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Let's do it again.

• 59:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, everybody, thank you so much. We'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.

• 59:39Speaker 02

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  We're not worthy!

• 1:00:31Speaker 04

  The best things on TV really are free. You just have to know where to look. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.