How Gen Z Dates Online — With Tinder CEO Jim Lanzone

Jim Lanzone is the CEO of Tinder. He took over the world’s most popular dating app last summer, in the heart of the pandemic, and is starting to evolve its product to give people new ways to connect. Lanzone joins Big Technology Podcast to discuss how Gen Z wants to date online, how their behavior differs from millennials, and how that factors into his product vision. We also talk about the business of Tinder, whether Lanzone lets his kids use the app, and where its next challenger might come from. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 1:14Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hello and welcome to the Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. Our guest today is Jim Lanzone. He's the CEO of Tinder and someone who I've known for quite some time, dating back to his days running CBS Interactive. Jim, welcome to the show.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  It's great to be here.

• 1:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Great having you. You've made quite a move going from a content company to a dating app. Your personal story is interesting, but I first want to ask you, who are your users when it comes to Tinder? Is it Gen Z? Is it millennials? Is it older folks? Who's using this app? Because it originally started, you know, it started my generation with millennials, but you know, I imagine the young kids want to date as well. So who's using it?

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Well, there's definitely been a generational shift. I mean Tinder started in August 2012. Uh, and so that was right in the heart of millennials. There's definitely been generational shift where Gen Z has made it their own over the past couple of years. Uh, and so, you know, about half the user base is probably Gen Z at this point. But, you know, one of, and I'm still relatively new, so I, you know, don't take credit for this, but Tinder is pretty much number one in every age group. Um, and, you know, even, even Gen X and older. Uh, it, it also depends by country because we're, you know, we operate in 190 countries. We're number one, I think in over 115 countries and

• 2:45Speaker 01

  in some of those, like India, Japan, it's big, but there's a little bit of a nuanced, you know, difference. It's a little more matrimony driven, uh, whereas the trend in many, in many other places is, is less so. So it kind of depends.

• 3:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  You guys are in 190 countries?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we basically operate everywhere except, I mean, not, not with like an office, but like we're available everywhere except like North Korea and Iran and.

• 3:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  I was gonna ask, where are you banned? So those two countries? I see.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  I think we were banned, we were banned in Pakistan too, actually.

• 3:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  Are people in those three countries still using Tinder, but just like having a VPN?

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Like contraband?

• 3:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, like.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  I think there are people in various countries like that who do try to sneak in.

• 3:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  I see. People are gonna wanna date, you know, that's just how it goes.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  That's right. Food, shelter, and I think we're next.

• 3:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes, that's right. So when it comes to generations, I mean, obviously all generations date a little bit differently. But from my understanding, the breakdown between the way that millennials date and Gen Z dates or even uses your platform is pretty interesting. So can you share a little bit in terms of the distinctions between millennial and Gen Z? And, and I imagine those two are your, your biggest group of users. I think I heard you on a previous podcast where like Gen Z is what 50% of your user base or something like that. So, um, yeah, if you could give us like a little sense as to like what the numbers are and the differences in behaviors.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I mean, ex- exact numbers are always secondary research, so it's it's a little hard to understand um percentage of that generation, but the, I mean, I actually answered in two ways. One is Gen Z has these fundamental differences, but what we're seeing is that everyone is starting to share those differences coming out of COVID, or they actually started to happen during COVID.

• 4:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  Ah, I see.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Which is kind of best explained as what I would call less transactional, less of a hurry to kind of get to the date and figure out, you know, what's happening there and making a little bit more about the journey than the destination is how how I would put it. Uh, that's definitely been a generational shift pre-COVID for Gen Z, where it's more about getting to know somebody uh first before deciding if there is that spark. Uh, and and then, you know, again, what happened with COVID was at first, nobody could go anywhere. And so you were forced into this virtual world. Things like video chat became important during that time where prior to COVID, kind of like Zoom or, you know, WebEx or BlueJeans,

• 5:27Speaker 01

  like, nope, we had them, but people weren't using them. And it was kind of true of video chat as well on on dating apps.

• 5:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that if somebody asked somebody else to video chat before the pandemic that they met on a dating app, they would be viewed as a creep or a weirdo.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  I don't know about creepy. I just think people were like, what?

• 5:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Why would I do that?

• 5:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  And it was true in the work world. I mean, we would do phone calls. We would do video calls with like six people in a room. You would do anything except do a video, you know, like we wound up all doing.

• 6:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  COVID. So so that became um, I think, a trend for almost every age group. And what we would see is You know, remember last summer, things opened up a little bit. But instead of kind of going back to, hey, let's go meet for a drink and let's get to this. It was like, hey, let's go hiking. Or we saw, you know, I think you've heard me say, we did, we had a three X increase in mentions of roller skating. And people, people just want to do activities together to get to know each other.

• 6:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hmm. Yeah, I, I've heard a lot about roller skating. I feel like roller skating has had the biggest unheralded pandemic boom out of any recreational activity.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  If you go to Santa Monica Beach, it's amazing to see the roller skating is still a thing.

• 6:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, yeah. I recently, after a long time now, after being vaccinated, went to the Church of Eight Wheels in San Francisco. Have you heard of it?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's an old church that's been converted into a disco roller derby. I, I think that's a topic for another, uh, disco roller skating rink. So.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  First of all, yeah, my wife would be all over that.

• 7:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's pretty cool. I had a disco bag, disco ball in the middle of the church and, you know, stained glass windows. But obviously it's no longer in use. It was a true like, oh, this is a real San Francisco experience.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:14Alex Kantrowitz?

  Totally radical. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Put roller skating aside for a moment. So they went more activity based.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So look, so that I think those are the, those are the, the two major trends there. And, you know, that dovetail with me coming in here and, and everything I love to do is product innovation and product development. And, and getting to know the user base right away, it definitely led to a lot of the things that we're starting to launch on Tinder.

• 7:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yep. So, oh, what are you starting to launch? Maybe we go there.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Well, I'll give you the quick version. The quick version is the, the big one is, uh, we're launching video.

• 7:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  So video and profiles.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Video and profiles. And, and I do think that's an important nuance because we're not, uh, some people said, oh, is that to compete with social media? Absolutely not. I think it's a 180 from social media. The point on Tinder is not to broadcast yourself or to attract followers or for us to attract attention to monetize through advertising. You know, we're a subscription based service trying to provide value, but you know, people are three dimensional. They're not one dimensional. It's not just about a photo and a little bio. And definitely is about is is time that we gave people the tools to do that. And so, yeah, the way we're doing it is letting people upload video straight out of their photo library. We have an editing tool that lets you edit it down. And it will show up in the Tinder cart stack, uh, which is how you swipe through Tinder

• 8:38Speaker 01

  for those who don't use it. And it'll, you know, videos will show up seamlessly right alongside, uh, photos.

• 8:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yep. So you're not going to make it mandatory that someone puts a video, but if they want to use Vindi a video as their profile picture, they can.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  That's right. And that way it's also seamless by generation, right? You would imagine Z is going to do a lot of it and older people may be more hesitant to, uh, to do so, but either way they'll see it and that will kind of advertise it to other users within, within the app.

• 9:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. What else do you have cooking?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Uh, so down that pathway of roller skating and, and video chat and get to know you. Uh, you know, we saw that it wasn't just about swipe left, swipe right. What they're really saying is swipe maybe or swipe possibly. And people want to, want to find out more about other people and they want to share experiences with them as a way to do that. But they're, they're very open to doing that virtually, uh, and not just offline. So we're doing is we're launching an explore tab or hub within the app that will be the home to all kinds of different activities to do together, icebreakers to participate in together, uh, and will become this very robust part of Tinder.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Again, getting beyond the, the, you know, the one dimensional swipe left, swipe right, chat and meet, uh, and giving people all these, you know, richer ways to authentically express who they are and then get to know other people. Um, and so one example of that is another thing we're launching. This one's called hot takes, which is a pre-match, uh, it's almost speed dating, but in a way, but it's, there are questions that we will present to you and then we're going to match you with somebody else who chose that same topic. And then, uh, for someone who chose the same answer as you, throw you then into a chat. You have a 30 second countdown to see if there's a match and then you decide whether to match or not.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  And that's on the back of one we did last month called Vibes, which is kind of similar, which over 10 million people use. It was appointment viewing. It was actually, you had to, you know, go online at that time of that event. 10 million people did it. And then last year, we had Swipe Night, which over 20 million people viewed, which was like a choose your own adventure TV show essentially within Tinder that increased matches 26%. So people were really into this idea of having some activity to do together to figure out whether there's a spark, not just do it based on a photo and a bio.

• 11:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  So, and I've been wrong about tech product decisions a lot throughout my career, as you could probably attest if you've read stuff that I've written. I'm a little skeptical of the fact that this is going to be something that lasts outside of the pandemic. I think that when people can worry about getting, you know, getting the coronavirus from others in real life, then, you know, going on all these adventures sounds pretty appealing. But when life returns to quote unquote "normal", and you are able to just go meet somebody at a bar because they're open and you don't need to go in with a mask, then potentially, and yeah, and you don't have to wait for warm weather to meet someone, then potentially, things just revert back to normal. So I'm curious from your perspective, you know,

• 11:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  these are obviously big changes to the product. What about people's behavior? And you said this starts with Gen Z, so maybe we can think about them. What about people's behavior leads you to believe that this is going to be a permanent change and not just something that, you know, felt like a fun thing to do during the pandemic, but no one really wants to spend time trying to meet people in the digital world and hang out with them when they can actually go out and be outside or inside in a bar or restaurant together?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Well, there's a reason that Tinder, I mean, if you think about the history of the internet, it's very rare that you've had product market fit at a level that Tinder had. Uber, I mean, there's very few that were at that level. And one of the reasons is-

• 12:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Jim, let me tell you, my, I remember hearing the first time about Tinder. My roommate, I was living in Brooklyn at the time. My roommate, I'd never seen his eyes light up about this. Cause he came out, he's like, dude, you know, this guy from Brooklyn, dude, there's this app, you gotta hear about it, you know? And it's just like, all you do is swipe. It was a revolution and it quickly picked up and turned, I think probably into the world's most prominent dating app. But, okay, sorry to interrupt you.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Definitely turned into that. But if you think about-

• 13:04Speaker 01

  You know, what happened over those, the last 10 years is you've gone from online dating being 5% of, creating 5% of relationships to it's now, pre-pandemic, was already over 40% of relationships were being started online. And it's by far the number one way. The second way, the, you know, most common way people meet is through friends. We know the work world's going away as a place that people should be meeting people to date. And you think about all the different places in life. I mean, a bar was one of the most inefficient ways to meet somebody. You know, unless you're the guy, your friend with that accent, it sounds like he's somebody who would.

• 13:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, he'd have many problems. That's right.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  But, um, but you know, look, online dating had already replaced that. So if you talk about what was normal before the pandemic, online dating was already number one. And it's not just for relationships, it's also for marriages, right? And there's actually, it's one of the most unsung thing about Tinder is there's a chance it's the number one source of marriages, which is odd. It's not always how people think about Tinder. But I think one of the great things about Tinder is it's not judgmental about the outcome. It could be for the person who wants to meet someone in the bar, it could be someone who wants to get married. Our job is to match you with the right person. And, uh, and so that is what we do now. People, especially Gen Z, as we talked about, what's normal for them pre-pandemic was already slowing things down, getting to know people

• 14:31Speaker 01

  and virtual relationships being extremely authentic to them. And, and, you know, different than what millennials.

• 14:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  That can be in a, a gaming environment, for instance, where they'll hang out. Well, I'd heard a stat recently where in Fortnite, people actually spend more time in their own development area where they can just kind of chill with their friends as their avatars. And actually in the battle Royale mode. And so if you think about that, actually, when it comes to Tinder, if you guys can build an experience that resembles that where people feel normal meeting each other online and hanging out, then potentially you take advantage of that trend. Is that, is that where you're going with this?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Hundred per, that's a hundred percent where we're going. But again, I think it's super important to draw the distinction that unlike. Probably any other type of app, our job is not to keep them here. We're building those experiences in service of connecting you with the right person. And again, not just to go play tennis, like not for friendship. There are other apps for that. Ours is for that spark, right? That Tinder gets its name from and, you know, that's why we're doing it. And so I do think that's extremely valid and it was already headed that way. Like with a lot of things, I came out of streaming most, most recently. Streaming was already the trend. Covid accelerated it, right?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Remote work was probably the trend and Covid accelerated it. So, you know, again, I don't think we're going back. But Tinder, like, like, let's say like Uber where you're connecting, you get a ride in the real world. You know, Tinder has a real world component where we leave you at the, you know, the time at which you're going to decide to go meet up in real life. And we've done our job up to that point in many ways. So, uh, so I don't think the real world coming back slows dating down or online dating down. I think that they work together and that has just changed a little bit.

• 16:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. So I go back to my question that I asked earlier, which is if coming back to normal doesn't slow anything down, uh, then, you know, and I, I understand there's a need to do product innovation and keep people engaged in the app. But why do you think, because it seems like the experiences that you're talking about, especially, um, you know, these, uh, hot, what are they called? Hot takes or?

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  It seems like those will actually keep people in the app longer. And I guess like, I'm curious, like,

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  I just want to just finish this thought. Why does it, you know, why is that gonna, um, why do you think that will take off as opposed to the, you know, excuse the expression, but like quick and, and dirty way that people would use Tinder beforehand?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Well, work backwards. I think the majority of people have a hard time. I mean, I think there's more than more than one thing. What is to your point?

• 17:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Um, you uh may feel very comfortable talking to strangers. A lot of other people aren't. And then they would love, especially young people, they would love to have a way to have icebreakers or to have an activity. Think about it another way. Uh, in real life, going to a movie or a concert and then going to get a drink versus just going to get a drink. You're like, hey, who are you? Right? You have something to talk about. But in in the case of Swipe Night, going back, you know, a year plus. Uh, it was, hey, we both chose the same pathway through.

• 17:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  And Swipe Night is this choose your adventure game?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for anyone, you know, I don't know how many people listening saw the Bandersnatch episode of Black Mirror. Where it was the choose your adventure episode.

• 18:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  This was a, I say this coming out of the TV industry, a way better version of that. They should have been studying what Tinder did. Uh, and I wasn't here for it, so I'm not taking credit for it, but it it was really cool. And you would wind up with a series of decisions that you made along your decision tree. And then you'd wind up with a certain ending. And so you would get matched up with people who chose some of those same pathways. And it would make people pissed. They'd be like, how would you defend Zane on that, you know, thing that he did? Or, you know, you wind up in this same outcome. And that drew, that that caused a 26%. That's huge increase in matches.

• 18:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know, it can, it's interesting because, um, you know, we talk about the pandemic. What's the pandemic? How's pandemic going to change behavior? I don't know if this is going to fade away, but I've definitely heard from lots of people that they're going to be more selective in terms of who they spend their time with after this. And I think before there was a feeling that life is just going to be unlimited. Especially among young people. I think people have a much better sense of their own mortality now and don't want to, you know, just go out on a date with anyone. And if these experiences can create deeper interactions with people, then potentially you get to a place where you're then serving that need. Does that sound right to you?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 19:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  So I won't just restate what you said, but to add to it, I also think what's important to people is, you know, the, the idea that, or the hope that they find somebody awesome who is unexpected. And dating apps have been pushing this. I mean, you know, if you look at the increase in interracial marriages that have happened because of dating apps and people just getting outside of their normal social circle or bar scene in Brooklyn or their friends, you know, to meet someone new and different from a different culture or just who they didn't, you know, know before. And another version of that is if you really get to know somebody, could be within our app and different experiences

• 20:08Speaker 01

  we give you or, you know, later, you're going to increase your chances of, of finding the right person, you know, instead of just going off your assumptions at the beginning. So I think that's another reason people are, are really leaning into that, that part of these things. And we need to give, you know, again, we're not creating these in the hopes that people use them. We're doing it to respond to what we're seeing, what they, what they need.

• 20:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yep. All right. Let's take a quick break. I want to come back and ask you a few more questions about people on Tinder's behavior and then maybe we go to the business side of this thing. Uh, so let's take a break. We'll be back right here on Big Technology Podcast with Jim Lanzon. He's the CEO of Tinder. This episode is brought to you by App Point. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now. Copilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data and most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what App Point does. For 25 years, they've been the trusted layer beneath the world's most demanding data,

• 21:16Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 21:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  And we're back here on the Big Technology Podcast with Jim Lanzone, good guy, CEO of Tinder. He and I know each other for a while. Jim, I think the first time we met was at a, was at Levi's Stadium where the 49ers play. There was a panel about, I don't know what it was, like fantasy football or something like that.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  I think, was it?

• 22:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  Do you remember this?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Super Bowl was coming, maybe?

• 22:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, Super Bowl was in the Bay Area. And there was a fun discussion. It's actually interesting, real life and virtual life and how they blend. That was part of the discussion. And there was a moment where I asked the group, is esports the same as in real life sports? And everyone had their, what would, do you remember what your answer to that is or what would you say today?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

• 22:39Alex Kantrowitz?

  In the middle. Yeah. So we had, we had.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Where, where, because I remember talking to, you know, like, I think one of the differences from a spectator point of view, right? And I don't think there's a huge difference from a gamer point of view. The athlete is the athlete. And I would say that about chess, you know, as well.

• 22:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Gone crazy during the pandemic because it's probably because of Queen's Gambit.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  I think the spectator side is, is, is different, you know, and it's, it's not quite as broad, probably.

• 23:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, the thing that I think that's interesting, we had like the head of operations at EA up there, who was talking about how, you know, the audience is growing and eventually will exceed that of regular sports. And I thought that was interesting. But anyway, so I.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  A niche though, probably. I mean, yeah, meaning like you get there in a different way, I would assume.

• 23:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. And so my perspective is that esports isn't, isn't anything close to the actual game. And we had a, a younger former 49er player who was up there, who was like, esports is sports. No difference between the person playing a video game and what I do professionally. And then Lynn Swan, the Hall of Fame wide receiver. Right. Okay. Yeah. He was in the audience. And I was like, I wonder what Lynn Swan has to say. And Lynn gave me this look and then walked out of the room. And I was like, I just pissed off Lynn Swan, future Hall of Fame, or not even future Hall of Fame wide receiver. He comes back in the room with a folding chair and I'm like, oh, it's about to get interesting.

• 24:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  He puts the chair on the stage and he goes, they're not athletes.

• 24:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  I was like, oh, we have an answer. So anyway, that was a fun first interaction. I uh, I'm glad we, I'm glad I made it through. I thought I was in some trouble there. Okay. So I want to ask you, um, let's get back to Tinder.

• 24:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  Interesting hearing about these experiences. I like the term swipe, maybe, uh, or people trying to get to know each other beforehand. You mentioned, I think you've mentioned before, 10% of marriages in the US might be traced back to Tinder. You know, I had a conversation with your predecessor, who after years of having Tinder deny the fact that it was a hookup app, had basically said, this is a hookup app. So I'm kind of curious, like what your perspective is on, you know, is it a hookup app? Is it a relationship app? Is it something in the middle?

• 25:04Speaker 01

  I have some like maybe sociological or

• 25:10Speaker 01

  views of that where I actually think this goes back to the product market fit. I think when Tinder hit the scene, you know, which I remember I knew the founders, I'd worked at IC, I pretty much knew everybody involved in the creation of Tinder. And, you know, I'm close to the people at Benchmark and who had gotten involved later too.

• 25:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  The VC firm that funded.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  You know, I think that the, the innovation, um, the innovations of, uh, of double opt-in and swiping and all these things were so powerful and, and that there was, there was more to glean from that. And I don't think it was purely superficial. I just think it was another form of hitting the senses than what had been for 50 years before that of, of, you know, singles ads and newspapers leading up to match.com and all the others, which is, I like to go for long walks on the beach.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Descriptive yourself and so. And it was geolocated. And so that, um, so what happened in my view is that I just think the product market fit was so significant, it led to hookups because that's totally valid that, oh, I like this person, I'm gonna go meet them and then that would happen. Um, and you know, so I think at its core, what Tinder is great at is matching people. And, uh, what's interesting is that's now led to it being also number one for creating relationships. I think we hit the entire spectrum. And by the way, you know, people who are really into each other on night one could wind up getting married. I mean, it's, it's, it's the whole

• 26:46Speaker 01

  thing. That's our job. So I actually think, believe it or not, I actually think the hookup thing is more of a titillating question to people, um, especially older people. I don't think that that's, uh, thought of as much by Gen Z. And they just like to giggle around that subject matter. But the truth is, and if you think about it another way, like, why is it even relevant? Connecting people is what's relevant. They take it where they want to take it. And everything can happen. I mean, there was an article last week in BuzzFeed, the woman reviewed for hook, what she called hookup apps, which included us, Bumble, Hinge, I think plenty of fish. The comment section was filled with people saying

• 27:27Speaker 01

  that they'd met their significant other partner on Tinder. Michelle Obama last year said, don't, if you want to find, you know, get married, get off Tinder. And she got, you know, I love Michelle Obama, but she got hammered with the world reacting to that. So I, I think either way, our business model stays the same. And our job is to make a great connection and you take it where you want to take it.

• 27:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I, I've always thought that people who call Tinder a hookup app, um, are off base. And that, you're right, like, I mean, most relationships in general, you know, they don't start with someone saying, this is going to be the person I marry. And they develop. And so why not online as well? It seems like it mirrors the behavior that we have. And you, it's interesting that you, uh, point out that like, you know, this is something that comes from, you know, potentially older people. Uh, and I'm curious what you make of there's like a whole generation of folks and this was just on a podcast that you did with Howard Lindsay and folks who are like, yo, if I was on Tinder, I would have crushed it.

• 28:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know, and they talk about there's maybe there's a little bit of jealousy of, you know, from people who have who are beyond, you know, the age or whatever, the life state, life station where they would use the app who are who want to denigrate it and just call it a hookup app. So.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  It's just more efficient and effective. It is.

• 28:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  You know, maybe the difference between having the ability to have groceries delivered right to your house or a car brought right to you versus just hoping you wave your hand out and see what happens. Um, it's just, uh, it really works. At the end of the day, it really just works.

• 29:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Okay. I want to ask you a little bit about, um, behavior and makeup on that, uh, makeup of the, the demographics. So, I've heard you say that, um, there's far more men than women on the app. Are you able to share that breakdown?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  On all dating apps.

• 29:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Every, every single one?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, I mean, even, you know, Bumble, my understanding is that there, the percentage of women is, is still in the 30%. Not, it's not 30, but it's in the 30s.

• 29:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  So it's maybe, it's probably a bit higher than ours. Um, but, um, you know, there's obviously just by law of numbers, there are more women on, on Tinder. They just have a higher percentage, but, um,

• 29:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Either way, it's a lower percentage than you would think. It's no, it's not 50 50. Um, and yeah, I mean, I'm still diving in all the reasons for that. And I, I think it's a big opportunity for us in terms of, how do you solve this for, for women in a really good way? And same way that I think there are, there's a lot we can do for LGBTQ plus. And there's, you know, the different demographics.

• 30:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Another thing that I've heard is that, so wait, just to confirm, so your numbers are like 30%.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  No, no, it's, it's.

• 30:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Women are 30, in the 30s. Men are in the 60%.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Basically true for almost every app. No, that's not true. That's United States. Like if you, you know, if you go to Scandinavia, it's closer to 50 50. If you go to India, it's lower than, than 65, 35 or whatever the actual number is. I don't, I don't, I can't remember the exact number, but let's call it in that range. And also true in Asia where, you know, which are our largest growth markets right now are in Asia. Um, and yeah, I just think that's a societal thing and it's, it's being solved by the younger generation just has fewer hangups about this, but.

• 30:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, generally speaking.

• 30:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, that was an interesting thing to me that kind of jumped out and I was like, God, curious what Jim thinks about this. Another thing that I've heard, this didn't come from you guys, or maybe it did, I don't really remember, is that like five or 10% of the men on the platform get like 90% of the attention or the interest.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  I don't think that's anywhere close to true. And I think that sounds like it's an old data point.

• 31:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  So yeah, I don't believe that that's true.

• 31:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  So you, so it's fairly evenly spread out people's interest in each other. So the, the marketplace is working essentially.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  If, if you think about it, we have a hundred marketplaces. You have, um, you know what I mean? Like just every, every different same-sex community, um, where, um, by the way, even a way higher percentage than for, uh, hetero couples met online. It's, that's more like 70%.

• 31:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  By the way, now I also think it's interesting, you've probably seen this stat too, that people who meet through these apps, uh, generally speaking, have longer and happier relationships. And I, I actually think the more I'm, I spend more time I spend with it, the more I understand why, you know, which is it's not just some happenstance meeting or a meeting of convenience from your, you know, your job or your school.

• 32:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's a pretty, pretty intentional.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Match with somebody.

• 32:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, definitely. Are, are, are, are Gen Z and millennials dating each other or do they generally stick to their demographic?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it depends what age range people said. I mean, I would say for the most part, people are probably within their age, age range.

• 32:30Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, one thing that I heard is that Gen Z is, um, the millennials put, and this I think came from your team, millennials put a lot of care into their profiles and make sure they have the perfect shot where a Gen Z is. Less intentional.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  That is, again, I'm generalizing here, obviously, you know what I mean?

• 32:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, of course.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  I would say, I would argue that that is very far from true.

• 32:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Really? Okay.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Meaning, everybody puts a ton of work into that profile.

• 32:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, yeah.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Which if you think about is one reason why we need to expand the number of things that you're able to do to express yourself versus just have the bio and just have a few photos, right?

• 33:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  Totally.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  We, by the way, just to tell us what, we're also launching, which I didn't mention earlier, within our Explore uh tab, the ability to basically take the steering wheel a little bit and decide, um, you know, uh, which category you want to, um, you know, essentially swipe through at any given time. So you can go into pet mode and just go for people who also like dogs. You can go through just your university, you can go through people just who are also thrill seekers like you are. If you're in the, you know, certain activities, um, there's actually a lot of those that are going to be launched uh with that part of the uh the app. Now, once you get in there, it's still lean back and we're gonna still, you know, use our technology to match you.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  But it just gives, gives people a little bit more control uh over the Tinder experience, which they've said they want as well.

• 34:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  It matters to them, I think, is what the underlying thing is here.

• 34:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  For sure. So, okay, so I was off on that one. We had a question uh on Twitter, actually, along these lines. Someone asked, um, oh, what is the percentage of people that end up having a conversation after matching? I don't know if you can share this, I'm sure it's proprietary, but I'm gonna ask you anyways. They said that they, they've heard from a competitor that only seven percent of people actually chat after matching. Is that close to true?

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Sounds like, sounds like that's a competitor.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  No, obviously the number is way higher and what?

• 34:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  I, I will give you a couple of interesting stats, which is that during COVID, uh, the number of messages increased by twenty percentage points higher than baseline. Like, so not just in terms of going with the user growth, but twenty points over that. The number of messages within, or the length of those conversations increased thirty-two percent.

• 34:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  So basically, the trend has been longer, more, and that continued even during the first Summer of Love, which was last summer.

• 35:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Uh, it wasn't just during, during shutdown.

• 35:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, we'll see what happens in, in this Summer of Love. It should be interesting. But it makes sense. Yeah.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, Fred Wilson just called it analog summer today.

• 35:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  And I like that.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  He was thinking everything's going back analog.

• 35:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I think there will be some things that will, will, will stay.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  We had another question. Do you think the addition of, uh, face, face-to-face video messaging? So people going on FaceTime either through your app or on, you know, Facebook Messenger or Apple, is that going to change the likelihood that they're going to meet offline? Do you have any thoughts on that one?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Increase the likelihood they'll meet offline because you video chatted?

• 35:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  I guess the question is, are people gonna be, um, less eager to meet offline if they're, if they video chat?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Again, I, I would actually argue that this question is likely generational because if you talk to any younger, younger Gen Z especially.

• 36:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  They don't use the phone.

• 36:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  What?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  They use FaceTime only.

• 36:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Ah, okay. So they're not, oh, they're not like talking. They're using the phone, but they're using it to video chat.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Ah, okay.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  So this is the trend no matter what.

• 36:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  And, and, and again, they, it's also the trend that, that these kids have entire relationships virtually over FaceTime before they even meet in real life with not just romantically, like with friends.

• 36:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  And that happened during lockdown too, that, that, that really like mushroomed as a trend. So yeah, I mean, I, I think that essentially what I look at is the ultimate thing is always going to be able to meet in person. I mean, I'm sure as we head towards this VR world and, you know, an avatar world.

• 36:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  Not even VR, like even in the gaming world, like I was talking about with the, with the Fortnite stuff.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  In the gaming world, there's gonna be real relationships. I mean, my friend's son was telling me that his two best friends, and this kid's 14, are 19 and 25, and he's only ever talked to them on Discord.

• 37:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Holy.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  And those are his best friends.

• 37:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's wild.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  And I think it's totally the trend that you're gonna have virtual relationships too. At the end of the day. There's gonna be the offline component. We do the baton pass.

• 37:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. So you have said that you've learned a lot from your kids' friends about what's going on.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  So one of the things I love to ask people who work as tech executives is whether they allow their kids to use the products that they work on.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  Have you thought about whether you're gonna let your kids use Tinder?

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Well, see, that's a compliment because you're assuming my kids are younger than they are. I have a, I have a 20 year old who just finished sophomore year of college and I have

• 37:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  18 year old daughter and my son is straight, my daughter is gay and they are both on Tinder using it. Absolutely. And, and to be honest, A, it's inspirational to me to, to make it better in all kinds of ways, better, safer, just all these things.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  And then also it really, you know, again, I think for people who don't have kids or didn't meet that way, it's why people are defending that they met this way.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  I actually feel great about them using it at this point, you know?

• 38:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  And I see my, my, my kids' friends on it as well.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  You know, my son's friend just took a girl on to, he met, he matched with her and she wanted to take him to an Oakland A's baseball game and she almost got in a fight at the game.

• 38:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  Nice. It's a great first day.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Other fans, like, wow. Interesting match. That's not this guy's. Uh, he's not a fighter.

• 38:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. Well, sometimes it's good to have one person in the relationship throw the punches. So.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  So yes, I'm absolutely having them use it. It was a lot easier when I was doing streaming and they were just watching Star Trek, you know?

• 39:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Did you have to sit them down and be like, all right, kids, I gotta tell you about this company that I'm thinking about working at?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Oh, you don't think that kids that age know what Tinder is?

• 39:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, I'm sure they knew what it was, but like when you say, hey, this is the company that I'm thinking about running. What was that discussion like?

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, they think it's super cool.

• 39:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  That was cool. Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  So does my, my wife thinks it's super cool. You know, I've been married 23 years and we, I.

• 39:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  And you know, look, and there's been a few, yeah, so my wife is super supportive. My kids think it's awesome. Their friends think it's even more awesome.

• 39:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Yeah. You became the cool dad pretty quick.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  It's just one of those iconic internet, internet brands, you know, and it's, it means something. It's not a boring old brand. At the same time, there's so much that hadn't been done with Tinder. You know, just from you, you've been, you know, you've used it in the past. Like, you know, it's not,

• 39:57Speaker 01

  you know, it's still in many ways resembles the same product it was years ago.

• 40:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  There's a, but what I've found, and it's been a little surprising is there's been way more ability to innovate than I even expected coming in. And that really accelerated the past few months to where I now have a multi-year product roadmap. We're going to have to make some Sophie's choices if we have any more good ideas.

• 40:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Wow. Okay.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Uh, so we're already at that, at that stage.

• 40:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  Great. Share, share the roadmap with us.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  By the way, I'll tell you, the, uh, the employees of Tinder, most of whom are young, um, you know, their twenties and early thirties and live in LA and Palo Alto, uh, are just so passionate about the mission, you know, to them, there's, there's also no giggling about Tinder. It's, it's real. And, uh, whether they're on the, the user experience team, or they're on the trust and safety team, I mean, they, they're in it to win it. They, they, they really

• 40:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  passionate about it.

• 40:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, I've covered the company for many years at this point, uh, because I came into BuzzFeed writing about, uh, social media and communications, Tinder, and the dating apps fell right into that bucket. And I've spent time with the employees and you're right, no joke, uh, a lot of them have become very successful by working so hard and, and turning it into what it is today. So, all right, when we come back, let's talk, not we, we just segued into it kind of perfectly. Let's talk about the business, if that's cool with you. Uh, so why don't we do that when we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Jim Lenzel, CEO of Tinder.

• 41:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  And we're back here for one last, final segment of the Big Technology Podcast. Where's the time gone? Where was Tinder CEO Jim Lanzon? Jim, it's great to have you. Thanks again for making the time for me. I appreciate you joining on the show.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 42:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  So business-wise, I'm curious, from your perspective, what is the competitive landscape that Tinder plays in? Who are your main competitors?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting. Um, look, I'd say that there's been interesting segmentation of the market, right?

• 42:31Speaker 01

  In one way, you know, Bumble, obviously, the team there came out of Tinder, really has been around almost as long. They've been around only 18 months less time than Tinder. So we've always been competing with Bumble's positioning, which is its own interesting carve-off of Tinder, because we also have always let women make the first move. They don't only get to make the first move. And, uh, and that's become their, their marketing positioning. But from a, from a product point of view, uh, you know, I just objectively come into this category and say, there's, there's a lot in common between the two apps. Probably more room to differentiate in the future. Um, you know, Hinge, which, which Matt Jones. really great up-and-comer and Justin's a great entrepreneur and we've become close because we're both part of Matt's group.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Uh, super talented and, you know, theirs is designed to be deleted, is absolutely focused on, you know, I like to say that we're, we're for any kind of relationship and very fluid and non-judgmental about what that could mean. Uh, you know, they're very dedicated towards a much more, uh, you know, serious

• 43:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Serious relationship.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Is, is what they're, they're for. Which, you know, Bumble actually has moved the other way and they have advertising in Europe now that says, if just for one night or a lifetime.

• 43:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Ah, okay.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Little app.

• 43:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  Interesting.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  We've never done, um.

• 43:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  And, you know, and then there's also, uh, you know, by, by country, you know, Bumble also owns Badoo, which actually has more subscribers than Bumble does.

• 43:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Bumble proper does, um, and, uh, and then, you know, within Matchroom, you see, uh, different ones for different, um, demographics or, uh, you know, uh, like BLK for the black community, just for the Hispanic community.

• 44:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  So it's been interesting to see kind of how that, how that happens.

• 44:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Is there one that's gonna, is there one that's gonna win? Or is it, do you, so obviously Tinder's the top right now, but do you see, um, you know, this, do you see one coming out on top and staying there? Or is it gonna be just sort of how much of the market can you chop off? And if there is gonna be one that's gonna win or even not, what is it that it's gonna take to win in, in the online dating game?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I really hate cliched answers, but I have to give you one, which is, I mean, Tinder is by far number one today.

• 44:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  I walked into that. I didn't do that.

• 44:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Um, and again, I think largely on the basis of incredible original innovation and product market fit. And then they created the great business model with Tinder Plus and Gold, um, in 2016, 2017, uh, that created the business that it is today. The product market fit is so strong, it has skipped generations and now becomes something that everybody's using. It's number one in over a hundred countries for every generation. Like with anything, right? If Nike hadn't kept innovating, I'm sure somebody else would be Nike today, but they kept innovating and they weren't, right?

• 45:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Um, we, you and I have seen that in many different categories. Spotify with Apple Music, um, Facebook and MySpace, Google, which.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  I mean, there literally, if you go back to the Yahoo designs on that homepage, it was

• 45:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  They put a Google search box next to it with a link to Google.

• 45:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Brilliant move. Yeah.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if we don't listen to customers and deliver for them and innovate on their behalf, then you can lose. If we can do that, then and listen to them, especially as people change and generations change or coming out of COVID. And I really do think that one of the things that I can bring to the table was taking the governors off and actually just pushing the envelope of innovating better and faster. You know, that's what I want to do. And there's just a lot more that we can do. And I think you're going to see it from us.

• 46:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  The thing that usually takes out an incumbent is a threat they saw not from right in front of them, but that's something that comes out of nowhere.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  And so

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Great. Yeah, as talked about.

• 46:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. So I wonder for you what that could be. And I'm starting to think maybe it is like these little universes that people hang out in. Mentioned the Fortnite thing a couple of time, a couple of times. Another thing, I'm curious if you've heard this, that Scott Galloway, friend of the podcast, has brought up is maybe Peloton creates a dating app where you're already using the product and you have, you know, an affinity for like working out and being fit. And maybe you want to meet other people who are in the same area as that. So or same mindset as that. So I'm curious what you think about those versus like saying, oh, how are we going to beat Bumble?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, I first of all, Peloton's awesome. I have one. I go back to I C days of John Foley, who's the founder. We both worked there together.

• 47:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it'd be very hard for a company that's first of all, I heard this great Steve Jobs quote that he said to Jeff Ralston one time after they had bought their company is like, whatever it was, they wanted to add all these things. And he goes, you people. Think you can do everything, like you have to choose. And look at Facebook Dating, I mean theoretically that could take off, but like it's it's not so easy to focus and deliver something dedicated. That is, even if it's related but different than what you do. Like and even go back to Google, I mean, they've they've pretty much have gone after almost every vertical in the history of the internet and tried to do it. The things that work best for Google are utilities, right?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Even Maps is a utility, like that is what they're great at. They can do that, do it at scale. Machines can go to work. But they really haven't directly threatened other than owning the traffic flow to people in in verticals. And I think, I think our expertise and our in our history and experience taken together, we can't do everything either and we won't.

• 48:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  But connecting people for that spark is something that we do better than anybody else. It's not easy, it's expensive and history matters and and understanding how to do it really well. And I think brands matter, right? So if we take our eye off the ball from a branding point of view, and I do, I also have a new CMO, by the way, which we're not going to do, then people can come in that way, too. So anyway, look, I really believe in only the paranoid survive like big time.

• 48:56Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  So we will, we are not going to ever relax and we'll keep our eye on everything. But if we listen to this user base, we'll be fine. And if we don't listen to them, we're host. I mean, I think it's pretty, I think it comes down to that.

• 49:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  Totally. When it comes to listening to the user base, do you have to think about the trade off that you're going to make between user experience and making money? So Tinder, I think, used to be like a fairly simple interface. Now you mentioned, I think Tinder Plus and Gold. There's all these different things that you can end up, you know, paying for. Sometimes, you know, companies go down that route and. It takes like a free product and you know, gloats it with all these, you know, pay type of things. I think that's especially happened in the online dating world and ends up, you know, diluting the user experience to the point where it opens the door for someone else.

• 49:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  So do you think about that? And how do you consider the trade offs between making money and user experience? I mean, I'm thinking that also with the big technology, how many ads do I put in before people start tuning out? So, but sorry, go ahead.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Well, the way, so I drew this a long time ago because in the search industry, I remember this was at a time when you would shade the ads and the FTC would get involved. If you didn't call it out a certain way, now the ads have no shading and you don't know what's what.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  But we always knew that there was a difference between maximizing and optimizing revenue, right? And then, and those lines would cross at a certain point. If you just made as much money as possible, there's an impact to the user experience. And then people don't come back and you have no one to monetize. It's the same thing for, you know, however many minutes of a half an hour that you'll monetize in streaming for the ad based model. Uh, and then you know that in freemium, and that's how we invented CBS access was freemium. We had 40 million users a month watching the last five episodes for free. We're like, well, wouldn't you know, 10% or 20% of those people pay us a monthly subscription to get more? And, you know, not have ads would be a part of that. So, you know, we, we run a very, at Tinder, a very simple, uh, freemium model.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  I think three tiers of subscriptions and you get more of each tier. Similar to I had an ad free tier and a tier with ads and, and streaming. Freemium subscription models, I think are some of the easiest, the most straightforward models on online.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  And the good news is you actually don't change what you do to deliver it, right? You just have to try and create more value and, and, and it works itself out. So I actually feel pretty good about being in this model.

• 51:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Has anything, so it's interesting coming from your position, you were working in content, moving now to subscription dating. Has anything changed, uh, has anything surprised you about making that move over?

• 51:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Like in terms of like the types of decisions you make or what it's like to even run a company doing something like this, or does it have lots of parallels?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Believe it or not, I would argue, I look, I've only done consumer internet for, you know, for 20 plus years. You know, the only major transition that happened was web to mobile, right? That changed a lot. And then for me, it was that to OTT, which became 80%, you know, 80% of our, almost 90% of our volume started coming straight back from the TV. But other than those shifts, what I would say is, believe it or not, consumer apps have way more in common than they do different. And at the edges, it's dating, at the edges, it's streaming, it's Star Trek, you know, it's NCIS or the Super Bowl. On the back, on the backend,

• 52:45Speaker 01

  there's a lot that goes into it that maybe is different. Operating at scale, though, is the same. And then I actually think, if you think about, you know, managing a consumer base, user acquisition, user retention, these are all pretty similar. Running a subscription product, pretty similar. The nuances, though, in that last 5 to 10% are very unique in terms of actually what makes this market different from others. So that's been my learning curve. And just everything from the jargon to actually all of your assumptions coming in. But that's, that's what's made it fun, I'd say.

• 53:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, there's some, there's some truth to the fact that like, at the, I think, what did you say, at the extremes, like the internet ends up turning into dating and content. And you've been at the top of the heap with content, now you're working at the top of the heap in dating and working to bring some content in. So I think it's fascinating. Jim, you seem energized and excited to be doing this work. And I appreciate you stopping by and helping, or letting me pick your mind and helping our listeners here a little bit about what, what goes on inside Tinder HQ. So thank you for joining.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Awesome, buddy. That was fun.

• 53:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Super fun. Thanks to everybody for listening. As we record, we're now the number five podcast in tech news in the US. So appreciate you rating and sharing the podcast. If you, if you enjoyed this one, maybe you can share and rate it. That'll be great. If it's your first time listening, you want to subscribe. We do these conversations every Wednesday. And I think that's about it. Thank you to Nate Gwatney for doing the editing, Red Circle, for hosting and selling the ads. And thanks again to all of you for listening. We will see you next Wednesday.

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