New Release at Big Technology, AI Bubble Looms, Apple's Next Event — With Brian McCullough

Brian McCullough is the host of Techmeme Ride Home and general partner of the Ride Home Fund. He joins Big Technology Podcast for a deep dive into the week's news and a fresh announcement from Big Technology. We cover: 1) Big Technology Premium 2) The state of Big Tech at the end of a year-end that started with layoffs 3) Is self-driving tech's biggest story this year? 4) Who is winning the AI battle among the incumbents? 5) What happened to crypto 6) Apple's new Super Scary event on 10/30 You can subscribe to Big Technology Premium for 25% off at https://bit.ly/bigtechnology or at bigtechnology.com -- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Questions? Feedback? Write to: [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Big Technology is launching a new premium edition with a new monthly podcast. We also take a look at the state of tech as the year draws to a close and then we sort fact and fiction from AI and crypto and maybe we throw in a little bit of Apple's big news coming up right after this. This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put a Gentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis Chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, Head of Enterprise Business Solutions at Voya Financial,

• 0:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  to go inside a large-scale Agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions, trade-offs, and lessons along the way. You can watch both conversations now on my YouTube channel today. It's never been more challenging to get frontier compute. How do you know where to look, who to trust, or how much to pay? Akash is an open cloud that provides easy access, flexibility, and peace of mind. That's how companies like Razer were able to cut their inference cost by 15 times. Visit akash.network/alex for a free consultation. That's akash.network/alex for a free consultation. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool, nuanced conversation of the tech

• 1:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  world and beyond. We have a special double feature episode today because we're running this both on the Big Technology feed and on the Tech Meme Ride Home feed, which means that none other than Brian McCullough is joining us live. Welcome, Brian.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Hey, Alex. Welcome, Tech Meme Ride Home listeners, to another weekend bonus episode with our buddy Alex. I think you've been on like five or six times at this point.

• 1:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  That sounds right. It's always a pleasure to talk, Brian.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, no intros needed on my side, but... Given that this is news for your audience and for mine too, what is this new big technology premium thing, Alex?

• 2:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, thanks for teeing me up perfectly there. So this is great. This is an opportunity for me to introduce it both to our listeners on Big Technology Podcast and to Tech Meme Ride Home listeners. So Big Technology has been free for three years and the free edition will remain after this, but I'm introducing this new premium edition that's just going to give more of what we've been doing in new forms and new formats with new features and even a new podcast. So I'll start with the podcast first because I feel like it's pretty exciting for podcast listeners. It's called Big Tech War Stories. It's going to run once a month for Big Technology Premium subscribers. And it's going to be a conversation with people who have been in the weeds,

• 2:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  inside big tech companies and have either built a product that people love or one that was never released. And we're going to speak with them about what exactly happened. I think I have a clip from it that I can play here. This is with, so our first episode, which is going to be running next week is with Gav Memada, who is the first product manager on Google's Lambda Chatbot. What are some lessons learned for Google, looking in the rearview mirror? Like, how should Google change?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  They need to go back to the experimental roots, I feel, like over the years. Google has become more and more conservative about doing things. They care a lot about PR, like public relations. They care a lot about how their image is shown in the media. And I feel that, at least in my experience, that played so many projects inside of Google. It was like the PR was always top of mind for leaders. And on the other side, like OpenAI, like they don't give a shit about PR or like for the most part, they don't.

• 3:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  So that's a bit of a clip of the news show. I'm stoked about it. Again, coming next Monday. And then in addition to that, with this premium edition, we have this new thing called the panel, which you're on, which is, we already have about 20 tech experts. We're talking about analysts, VCs, journalists, and technologists that are going to weigh in on news as it's happening. So let's say the Silicon Valley bank is in the middle of collapsing. I'm going to email the panel. The panel will all, or when it's relevant, email one to two sentence replies about how to think about the news and we'll be able to contextualize it for readers. And then finally, we have a new Amazon column coming from Christy Coulter, who's a recent guest of the show. She spent 11 years at Amazon and has like a really good insight into how the company works. So that's it. Basically,

• 4:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  big technology premium. You can find it on bigtechnology.com. And the launch special will still be going on. So that's 30% off the annual price, which is already a good amount off of the monthly price. So you can get annual subscription for $90. And that's it.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Two, two comments on this. First of all, thank you, Alex, for asking me to be involved in this panel thing. I actually saw Alex in person this weekend and I was like, oh, you should have this person on the panel. You should have this person on the panel. And everyone I said, he was like, they're on. So believe me when I say this is a blue ribbon panel, because everyone that I was suggesting to him, they have already agreed to be on the panel. So that's, that's great. And then number two, I have a suggestion for the podcast. Years ago, I did an interview with one of the people on the team at DIG. If you know the history that like DIG was the big thing

• 5:36Speaker 01

  before Reddit and they did a site redesign that destroyed DIG and Reddit came to the fore. So that would be a sort of behind the scenes story if I can, I'll have to dig into my archives and see.

• 5:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, that would be great.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  That would, that's, it's a good story. Yes. Okay.

• 5:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  That would be great.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  We'll see if we can make that happen.

• 5:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Yeah. So I just got it off the ground. We're recording on Tuesday. This show is going live on my feed Wednesday and then yours on the weekend. But this is, this thing is fresh off, fresh and hot off the presses. And I've been like thinking about the right formula for many years. I want to be able to keep the free product for those who want, but also offer more for people who are interested in a premium subscription, something that can help them do their jobs better. You know, give themselves an edge in their career, give their companies an edge against the competition. I think that this sort of insight, insight in terms of being able to read tech events as they happen and learn about how the best do it is the best possible offering. And I'm really excited to roll it out today.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Well, everyone go check it out because as you know, big technology is one of the best sources out there for really in-depth sort of stuff in terms of analyzing the tech landscape deeper than I can do in my 15 minute show. However, and I'm going to grab the reins slightly because one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you this week is because you are the big technology guy. And it's sort of that time of year when a young man's fancy turns to thoughts of year end recaps.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  And so this is me teeing into our first topic, which is, I wanted to ask you, seeing as how you follow closer than I do, all of the big tech platforms. This year started out with tech in turmoil, with layoffs, with, you know, some people questioning, you know, the business models of something like was Meta in trouble and stock down whatever percent it was or whatever.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  I feel like it's not that much in turmoil. So if you'll allow me to pose the question to you, but then we can go back and forth on this.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  What happened to big tech this year? I feel like they've recovered. Is that, is that the correct sense or what happened?

• 7:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, they've definitely recovered and you know, you just have to look at Meta's stock price, right?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:56Alex Kantrowitz?

  Up 150% over the year to know that all that doomsaying towards the end of last year was misplaced and that these companies were always already, sorry, they were always going to respond to the demands of the market and boy, did they do it. So what you had is Mark Zuckerberg, basically, you know, he came in flat footed, but then immediately realized that it was going to have to be a year of efficiency, as he put it, right? Big cuts and a focus more on inventing versus maintaining. And I think you've seen that Meta has done the cost cutting. It's very tough for them, right? They had to cut a large percentage of their staff, but it also changed the culture internally where they started, you know, started acting less like a big company and more like a company

• 8:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  with some urgency. And you've seen that manifested with big moments where they've shipped, you know, their open source AI model, Llama, they've opened, they've shipped chatbots, this whole new slew of purpose-built chatbots that you can now get in WhatsApp and Messenger. Honestly, like, you know, been among the biggest skeptics of what this metaverse thing was going to be for consumers, but I just got a chance to try the Oculus 3, Quest 3, and I thought it was very impressive. It has great pass-throughs, so you basically can wear it, walk around and see everything going on in the room with you. And it's not quite where it needs to be. Obviously, it needs to be much thinner than what it looks like now as opposed to these

• 9:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  big goggles, but I mean, is it getting there? Absolutely, especially because Apple's bringing it forward. And so, so I think that Meta is emblematic of the type of movement you've seen through the entire big tech echelon, where there's been, you know, cuts that they had to make and they've made them, however painful they were. And then innovation and I mean, AI, which we're going to talk about later, has underpinned a lot of that.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  So I attended a Meta event sometime in the summer, June or July, and they were talking about all the AI stuff they were going to bring into their ads products and things like that, but they constantly made the point that like, we're still committed to the metaverse. Is it, is it just that? Maybe it's, they still are committed and they're still spending money on it. But is it also a thing where it's like, if we just don't shout it from the rooftops, that keeps Wall Street happy? Like, it's not like they're walking away from it or doing a mea culpa, saying, well, that was a, that was a cul-de-sac. They're just not talking about the metaverse as, you know, forthrightly as they were, say, a year ago.

• 10:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Absolutely. I mean, don't you think that when they said year of efficiency, I mean, how much of Wall Street thought that meant not investing, you know, billions of dollars into the metaverse every year, not losing billions of dollars? That's actually not what happened. They didn't cut spend at all. They in fact increased spend on the metaverse. I mean, they, they are not taking their foot off the gas pedal there and they've just tried to trim elsewhere within the company. And not only that, their, their ad product has recovered nicely from Apple's anti-tracking moves. So you put it all together and it is sort of, it's almost just, you know, business as usual in a way that the strategy hasn't changed. Maybe they've added more AI into it, but they're just trying to do it in a way that's,

• 11:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  again, you know, a method of building with more urgency and slightly, although not dramatically less people.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Well, so I was going to ask, again, like you go on the like Compound and Friends, like you're closer to like the stock market end of this or whatever. Was it ever a case that like in the early part of the year, were, were, like, was EPS down for any of these companies? Were like, were profits significantly hit and they've come back? Or was it more that they were being cautious in terms of like forecasting? And also, so then when they do cuts to especially personnel, that looks better to the bottom line to Wall Street? What I'm asking is, Were their businesses significantly hit? You just mentioned Meta's ad business recovering from the ATT thing.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Were they hit and they've recovered? Or is it just the vibe, which all of Wall Street is to a certain extent, where Wall Street likes the narrative better now?

• 12:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Part of both. I mean, there was a real hit, especially with Apple's anti-tracking moves. We're talking about a $10 billion loss coming in, or a contraction of revenue coming in. And in particular, because Apple didn't let them track what was going on.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  And so, and so for Meta specifically, that has come back in the sense that like, are we back to where we were before ATT?

• 12:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Not 100%, but there's two things that have happened. One is that people have taken their money and they've brought it to Snapchat and they've brought it to Twitter and they've brought it elsewhere. And then, you know, even though they weren't getting the same returns that they were on Facebook, they've just been like, oh, shucks. You know, the best place we have to put our money is Facebook. So they've actually like come back from that worldwide tour and be like, all right, Facebook, you know, take it. Then Facebook has built a lot of technical tools that have enabled these advertisers to start to get maybe not back to where they were, but to a point where they are pretty comfortable now spending money with this company. So you're at a point where you also had some pretty hard comps against COVID because people all, you know, every company that we're talking about

• 13:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  and did in big tech just had massive increases in revenue during COVID because they were basically the economy. So that tails off a little bit, but now, I mean, it's definitely evened out at this point and everything is pointing up for these companies.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  So if we have time, can I ask you for two other specific companies? We'll save Google slash Alphabet for the AI conversation later. But you're talking about COVID times and cutting back the workforce. That's Amazon, right? Amazon was also dealing with the sort of the transition to a new regime. You know, Andy Jassy taking over. So what's your take on Amazon's year this year?

• 14:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, in some ways, good. They really were slow on the AI front, but they positioned themselves a lot better with their big investment in Anthropic, right? Already 1.25 billion in Anthropic, potentially up to 4 billion investment in Anthropic, which is like this counterweight to OpenAI. So now they have a research house similar to the way that Microsoft has a research house. And while doing this, they've sort of, and Matt Wood was this VP from AWS was on the show a few months back, talking about this, where they've kind of created AWS as this clearinghouse for AI models. So no matter what model you want to build, they're not going to favor necessarily the ones that are developed within Amazon or the ones that are developed within Anthropic.

• 14:44Alex Kantrowitz?

  They have access to the builders and they're like, all right, builders, like come use our tools and build. So I think they're in good shape there. The one, you know, concern for Amazon is that AWS growth has really been slowing in a way that, you know, you see Google, Google, I mean, Google Cloud, right? It's not anywhere close, but it's starting to at least put, put up some formidable competition. And there's still a shine around Azure, Microsoft's cloud offering. And so you put it all together and at Amazon, you know, you're, you're, you're still dealing with the fallout of the pandemic, right? Because you overbuilt your infrastructure. You kind of were caught flat footed on AI, but you're starting to make up for that.

• 15:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  And you came into this year and it was probably like an, oh my God, what are we going to do? Scenario, people talking about Jeff Bezos coming back. And now the ship seems to be riding there as well. And they're up about 40% on the year. So.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  One thing that I have been hearing, which might be related to the AWS thing, I don't know if you've been hearing this too, but the, the idea that there are these new startups that have access to the Nvidia chips that are creating sort of, sort of new cloud offerings. I've been hearing from a lot of people that like, this could provide the opening for people to get a wedge against the traditional, because essentially running a. Sort of a cloud instance or a, you know, a set of racks for doing AI stuff is different. You have to design it differently than how a traditional cloud service does. And so I think maybe that's some of the concerns around AWS is I've been hearing people say

• 16:26Speaker 01

  a bunch of these startups that now are getting multi-billion dollar valuations just because they have access to A100 chips. If people get like, sort of acclimated to using these people to do their AI stuff, well, then it's easy to be like, well, here we'll add on this cloud thing or whatever. Anyway, the point being this might be an opportunity for people to create alternatives to AWS and the traditional cloud providers.

• 16:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And don't you think it's a huge opportunity for Nvidia? I mean, they are starting to license some of their computing.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Well, and isn't, I mean, today they were talking about also getting to the GPUs, which is different, but Nvidia is investing in all those like Cohere and what's the one in Jersey or whatever? Right. Or maybe that's the one in Jersey. Anyway, the point being is that yes, all those ones that are having these multi-billion dollar valuations, you're seeing that the lead investor is Nvidia. So, yeah.

• 17:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Covering their bases.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Nvidia has an interest in powering cloud stuff. So, yeah.

• 17:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  Exactly. Don't you love the fact that like, one of the more important companies in this space is in Jersey? It's like such a Jersey thing. It's like, yo, you need some chips.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I love that company because I, you know, I think I did it, the story a couple of months ago. They just had a bunch of GPUs left over because they were experimenting with crypto. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, we're not doing crypto anymore, but we still have these. And everyone's like, please, please give me, give me. There's, there's plenty of startups right now that are plowing that field FYI. So.

• 18:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. Maybe that's what Web 3 was all along where Reb 2, Web 1 was read, Reb 2 was write and Web 3 was stockpile Nvidia chips and sell them for the AI boom.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Hey, I always say that the whole reason Web 2 happened was because it was all of the infrastructure left over from Web 1, like all of the blow up of, you know, global crossing and all those that left all the dark fiber in the ground. Real quick, last one that I want to do here. Apple's story this year is essentially just a global macro story that global growth slowed and they couldn't sell as many phones and that's it? Or is there any other larger story to the Apple story?

• 18:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, there's like a few angles. So like, yes, growth slowed. The number two thing is that people, by and large, upgraded everything they needed during the pandemic, right? So you had a two-year super, super, super cycle. And then like, people just don't need to replace. So and by the way, like, this is obvious at this point, but an Apple, you know, an iPhone 12 or 13 is fine for five years, really. If you had the 10, you needed the 15. But if you have something 12, 13, you can probably, I mean, there's not a massive difference. So the compelling event to upgrade is no longer there in the same way that it

• 19:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  was. And then, I mean, honestly, like, there is some, some worry from China where you've, and this is something that has been overlooked, but I think is really important. We've talked about it in the show in the past, where the Chinese government said, if you're in public service in China, no iPhones. And not only is that a decent sized amount of the market there, but it's also a signal to people in China that says, hey, if you have national pride, don't use the iPhone. We make great phones here. You know, okay, we might be reading your data on them, but if you love China, use a Huawei. And now Huawei is the number one phone in China. So there's a lot of different currents riding against Apple. The comps

• 20:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  to COVID definitely don't help, but we have like four straight quarters of revenue growth decline. And we're going to talk about their new laptops and, you know, towards the end of the show. But, but geez, you know, not only they have revenue decline, but they have serious geopolitical risk. That's a rough spot to be in if you're Apple.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Indeed, and in terms of like, like we said, you know, maybe everyone recognizes that they don't need a new phone as often as every two years. You had Google acknowledging that with the Pixel. What is their, they're supporting out to eight years or something crazy like that now, but.

• 20:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, it's a very long time.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Which you would imagine that some people will have to match at some point, but we'll see. Okay, that's my, that's my trip around.

• 20:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Let me tell you, Brian.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, to me, the thing, the real big story. So first of all, like, I think we know that these tech companies are, they're in good shape. And you mentioned the compound and friends. I think one of the things that Josh Brown, who is the co-host of that show, has talked about is that AI saved the market in 2023. I really think that's true. We're going to get into that in the next segment. But one thing that I, I think is super important to touch on is to me, the underrated, unheralded story of the year, and listeners of Big Technology Podcast probably know how I feel about this because we've talked so much about it, is that self-driving cars took a huge leap, a tremendous leap, and are growing, they're,

• 21:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  they're finally at the point where the driving is good enough that they are, you know, able to operate functionally on large, in large, large portions of cities 24/7. We're going to have Waymo CEO Takeijiro Mawakana on next week on Big Technology Podcast. And one of the things listeners are going to hear in that conversation is that Waymo since 2021 has gone from 50 square miles of operation within Phoenix, which was already a decent amount of size, to more than 200 square miles in Phoenix. Not only that, operating in San Francisco, testing in LA, and, and we have crews testing on the freeways. So the speed and, and success at which this wave is coming is, is truly fascinating. And, you know, while

• 22:14Alex Kantrowitz?

  it's kind of interesting, like, while we all talked about crypto, AI was quietly the biggest story in tech. And now as, maybe while we're all talking about AI, the rise of self-driving is quietly the biggest story in tech.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  To that degree, I mean, I know that obviously there's different ways to answer this, but I, I, I agree that it's a big story in, in terms of a technology that. We were promised, promised, promised, and it kept not coming. And I had the famous, "Will we get self-driving by 2020?" As everyone promised, and it never came true. But is that a big tech story in the sense that, I mean, Waymo and Cruise could become big companies, but is that going to be, that's almost ancillary to tech in the same way that Uber, in a sense, is ancillary? Like, do you see what I'm saying? Like, is this, when we tend to think of big tech in terms of like the platforms, it's like, well, Google

• 23:11Speaker 01

  can do X, Y, and Z, or why can't you also do a music service? Why can't you also do movies? And is, I know that Waymo comes out of Alphabet, but is this, if it's a success, 10 years from now, is it a story of like, well, yes, I don't own a car anymore because I have a Waymo or a Cruise subscription, but that's sort of walled off from the larger tech story?

• 23:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  I think it's a great tech story. And I think that like, we sometimes can judge the, the impact of tech in terms of the way that it rearranges our world, right? And for, for better or worse. I think this is mostly a better situation. And, you know, despite the fact that everybody tags me when a Cruise falls into a puddle of cement in San Francisco, which like, not great, but come on. You know, we, anyway, we're going to talk about it more on Wednesday, about all these, these headlines about the Cruise hating a purse, or someone being critically injured under a Cruise. It turns out it was a human driver that slammed into them and they just landed under the Cruise. But, but I think that this could really reorient the way, and not to get too deep into this because

• 24:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  it's going to take a while, and these promises have been made and, and delayed. But it will reorient the way that our cities work. It will change, you know, you know, if you don't, if nobody owns these cars and you're just hailing them, then you don't really need space for parking. I think it will create a much better world and, and will probably be. I mean, I put it up there with iPhone, ChatGPT, and Waymo Car as the three most amazing experiences I've had with tech in my lifetime.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  You know, the other, I don't know if you've been aware of this, but simultaneously to all of a sudden, six months ago, oh, wait, there are way more self-driving cars out there than I anticipated. Are you aware that like the drone delivery thing is actually becoming a reality too? And it's not necessarily Amazon, though apparently they've they've made some more moves recently. But like, the FAA has officially like given the okay for like real actual drone delivery for stuff in the US. And so like, I feel like that's another one where it was a promise for the last decade that has never come true. But while everyone is looking elsewhere, I feel like drones are suddenly becoming closer to being a reality, sort of like self-driving cars are.

• 25:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's pretty exciting. I'm pro drone. I like the idea. I mean, as long as you're not like flying your drone and looking into my window with the camera like, I think that we really benefit from the ability for drones to deliver things. I mean, it's also good, I'd imagine, better for the environment than having a car drive around to do that. I think that drone photography and footage is exceptional to watch. I've been, when I was at BuzzFeed, I flew the drones and captured some wild footage inside some of the wildfire impacted areas in California. So I didn't realize it was it was that close to being approved in terms of delivery, but are we that far away from seeing this stuff hit?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, this is what I'm saying is that the two stories rhyme to me in the same way that like, the promise was self-driving and then it never came, never came. And now all of a sudden, like a switch has been flipped and that is that has been true. I think Walmart is whoever's doing it with Walmart, I don't have any of my notes in front of me, is the furthest along. But even this week, I saw movement from Amazon Air or whatever they call it, for them doing more than than they had been doing too. So what if we look back on 2023 as the year that self-driving and drone delivery passed a threshold and started to get real?

• 26:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting, right? Because in the middle of this AI moment, the thing that everybody looks at is that attention is all you need paper outside of Google, which is the transformer model. And that was in 2017. And, you know, I mean, it comes to a moment where there are these breakthroughs, they're quiet, and then people build on them. And the fact that these drivers have become generalizable and are able to apply the same stuff they know city to city, road to road is extremely underrated, and I think extremely cool. So I know we're both in New York, it's going to take a while for this stuff to hit the streets in New York. Like, man, get a robot to drive on ice, it's not as easy. I mean, humans can't do it either. But, but who knows? I'm now hopeful that we'll see the day.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm more hopeful than I was in 2020 when I declared my bet null and void, because I couldn't, I couldn't take a self-driving car into work or whatever. But,

• 27:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Soon enough. Why don't, can we take a quick break and then come back here and talk about AI, crypto, and Apple on the other side of this?

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Please.

• 27:56Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, we're here on Big Technology Podcast with Brian McCullough of the Ride Home Podcast. We're also on the Ride Home Podcast, it's pretty cool, Tech Meme Ride Home Podcast, which is, which is awesome, great daily update on what's going on in the tech world, and also talking about premium edition of big technology. I'll throw out the URL one more, one more time, it's bigtechnology.com. If you go to the launch post, which is going to be the second, or first or second from the top, big technology is going paid with deeper coverage and new features. You can get a $90 for the year subscription, as opposed to our typical $15 a month, or 120 for the year deal. All right, we'll be back right after this. This episode is brought to you by App Point. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now.

• 28:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  Co-pilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data, and most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what App Point does. For 25 years, they've been the trusted layer beneath the world's most demanding data. Now, Across your entire AI estate, your data, your cloud, and the agents acting on your behalf. It's how more than 28,000 organizations deploy AI with confidence. So innovation scales without scaling risk. AV Point, the unifying trust layer for AI. Head to avpoint.com to see how enterprises deploy AI with confidence.

• 29:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  Learn more at avpt.co slash big technology podcast. That's avpt.co slash big technology podcast. Violent threats against executives are growing at an alarming rate. When a company experiences backlash, executives are the first people blamed. When their address and other personal details are sitting online, this backlash can lead right to their front door. The team at Ironwell knows this better than anyone. They've protected some of the most targeted executives and individuals on the planet for almost two decades. As a wide glove enterprise security service, they protect your people with continuous personal data removal, proactive prevention tools, and human-led emergency support.

• 30:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  So when someone goes looking for your executives, Ironwell ensures they hit a dead end. So here's what to do. Go to ironwell.com slash big technology, fill in the quick form and request your free risk assessment. Their team will show you just how exposed your executives are and how to lock it down before a threat reaches their front door. That's ironwell.com slash big technology. Learn how to stop online threats before they become real world attacks. The link's in the show notes.

• 30:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Brian McCullough, host of the Tech Meme Ride Home Podcast, CEO of Ride Home Media. Brian, let's talk about, and actually, you know, now we're going through your titles. You're also partner in the Ride Home Fund, which is focused all about, wait, is it the Ride Home Fund?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Well, there's, there is.

• 30:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  This new fund that you came on.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  There is a Ride Home Fund and then there's a Ride Home AI Fund.

• 30:59Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  So there's two flavors, original flavor and AI flavor.

• 31:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  So AI flavors. So let me just read. So I, you know, obviously, we've been, we've been in a year of exceptional promise and lots of questions now about AI, right? I think that people have, we'll talk about crypto in the next segment, but people have a little bit of maybe PTSD from the crypto movement where a lot of people said this could change at all and it didn't change at all. And or at least yet. And they were like, okay, well, now we're hearing the same thing about artificial intelligence. And yeah, I can chat with chat GPT, but is that really going to amount to a new web? Let me read to you something from Tanya Dua's newsletter

• 31:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  on LinkedIn. And it's talking about whether AI has been overhyped. This is a quote that she puts in from Matt Turk from First Mark. You've started to see the cracks in the whole generative AI hype train in the past few months. It's a clear case of Amara's law where people have overestimated what a specific technology can do in the short term and underestimated what it can do in the long term. Brian, where do you stand on that?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  That we're over, we're underestimating what it can do in the long term. Listen, any, any technology wave, there's, you know, the, the curve, you know, trough of delusion, you know, anything that gets hyped at first, the first couple of years, there's a lot of things that will not work. By the way, chat GPT is not even a year old yet, right? So like, we're so, we thought of this year as like the big AI year, but it's the equivalent of if I, if you and I were having a conversation about e-commerce on the world wide web at the end of 1994. Right? So this before Google or Amazon or anything like,

• 32:54Speaker 01

  The reason that I say that in the long term, we're underestimating it. I'm not even one of these people necessarily that believes true artificial intelligence, like self-aware computers are, you know, maybe, might not even be here in our lifetime. But the thing that I think that this represents is the true promise of computing. And that's why I say that this is underestimated. What I believe and the reason why I raised the fund to go after this stuff is I believe that what, the simplest way to put it is what I think is being promised right now is the computer from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Where, you know, all of computing has been about sort of abstracting away the complexity of making a computer work. There once was the command line and you basically had to know how to code to make a computer work. Then came the GUI and so now it's easier. You click on icons or whatever, but you still have file menus and pulldown menus. On Star Trek: The Next Generation, Picard just says, you know, "Computer, do X, Y, or Z. Computer enhance, computer, you know, assess the makeup of that star," whatever. And you don't have to know all of the things that go behind it to get the computer to work to you, for you. When computers first came out after World War II, they called them electronic brains.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Because again, we've always thought of robots and computing primally as humans in the same way, "Well, this is a, this is a tool that will do my work for me." I think that that, the fact that we have spent at least the last 50 years bringing computers into our lives, but they were still difficult tools that you had to master. If we can abstract away all of the things that are complex about computing and just say, "Computer, book me the flight." Computer, respond to Alex and tell him I can record the show at 2:00 today instead of 4:00. Like, then essentially, this is a different paradigm where we don't necessarily have to look at screens.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  I'm not saying it's all going to be voice commanded or whatever. But I think that we're underestimating the ability of the true promise of computing to be manifest within our lives, normal people's lives, within less than five years. This doesn't even get into how it could transform medicine, you know, change how different professions work and things like that. I think that we're underestimating the fact that the true promise of computing as a tool that normal people use and rely on in their everyday lives to make it better, is it's here, it's now, it's a paradigm shift that I've been waiting for my whole life.

• 35:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  And so, let's talk about, I mean, he talks about how it's overestimated in the short term. Are we going to go through a year or two where like, people are going to be like, where's that cream filling on this stuff?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%, which is scary to be investing in a space like that.

• 35:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Can ask about that, yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  But also, at the same time, if you gave me the choice of investing in a sort of greenfield, wide open, new, this is a new paradigm, I would take that all day long. Like, there are other, you know, investing in SaaS companies for the last decade at least has almost been a spreadsheet-like thing. Like, you see how much users grow and like, sort of how the revenue grows. You can plot it on a graph and see like, okay, here's the valuation of this thing. It's more interesting to me to invest in a space where it's like,

• 36:33Speaker 01

  think of how crazy it was that the mobile phone came around and the things that got disrupted were taxis and hotel rentals, right? Like, that's, there's no way that you can plot for that. It's more interesting to me to invest in a space that is greenfield. Having said that,

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Chris and I started the fund just at the beginning of the summer. By the way, it's still open. If anyone is interested in investing in the fund, you can find out at ridehomefund.com. Our thesis has been to go after the privatization of stuff. So like, what is the Airbnb or the Uber of this paradigm shift? I would say by our definition, we've only made one of those types of investments and all of the other investments right now have sort of been infrastructure plays, by which I mean, who is creating the scaffolding around what this new level of compute is? We've kicked the tires on dozens and dozens of these products, you know, AI for architecture,

• 37:29Speaker 01

  AI for law, or whatever, and they don't seem defensible. And so I will tell you, if I'm being quite honest, we haven't found the Airbnb of this moment yet. What we are investing in is, hey, if you're Ford or American Airlines and you're, you want to deploy a chatbot or a large language model, you've got to be able to do it safely. Or if you're on Wall Street, you've got to make sure that your proprietary data is here. So that's what I mean by infrastructure. There's a lot of plays right now around allowing this moment to flourish. And so again, that's kind of like investing in 1994. Like, if you invested in every website at the time, you might not have done well. But if you

• 38:13Speaker 01

  invested in the underlying tech, you might have done it.

• 38:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  You did great. Okay, so I have a question for you about that. What do you think about, and I'm writing about this this week, so for listeners, if you're a journalist, don't take this idea. But what do you think about this emerging fight between Facebook and OpenAI? I mean, you have OpenAI, super open, no, sorry, not, no, open in the name, pretty closed in the technology. You have Meta pumping out these open source algorithms. By the way, like, not signing on to any of these, we need to stop AI progress while OpenAI seems to want to shut others out of it. And then you have OpenAI with this big impressive generalizable bot, ChatGPT, and you have Meta in this moment with all these personalized,

• 39:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  more, more specific use case style bots that they're releasing.

• 39:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  Talk me through this fight like and is it like it's kind of like an underrated conflict point between the two, don't you think?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Alex, if it's almost like you and I are more professional and more organized and we had thought about because I thought of this as a topic, but we never we didn't coordinate on this, but I'm glad you brought it up because I have some serious thoughts on this. Here's what you got to understand. In a sense, OpenAI is already the incumbent. Okay. Because if if you think of these large language models as a new sort of, as I'm saying, computing paradigm, the the key behind them is the secret sauce of what the data is trained on, what the large language models are trained on. But also, the key is is what they call like temperature. And basically, imagine you have to you you train a large language model and you're like,

• 39:54Speaker 01

  well, it's it doesn't work that well, so turn this knob three points and turn and slide that dial 70% or whatever. It's fine tuning. Okay. That's the secret sauce for for making things work. And and you can it's not just for accuracy, but it's also for making it cheaper and and and stuff like that. Okay. So OpenAI, in previous models, they released what the models were trained on and like how the the inputs worked and how, like I'm saying, they fiddled with the knobs and the dials to to get the secret sauce. They're not doing that anymore. And so the reason is, is essentially because they had the first big win on this, right? And so if you're a meta or someone coming from behind, OpenAI or ChatGPT is the the

• 40:39Speaker 01

  fastest product to become successful of all time, 100 million users, until threads.

• 40:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  Until threads. Yeah, I can't count out threads, but who knows, maybe they're both lost users, but sorry, go ahead.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  So what you have to understand is that anyone else now is like, well, there's a scenario where the biggest model will always win because it's the got the most data behind it, it's the best trained. And so either everyone can just follow in OpenAI's wake and be like, ours is just as good. It's sort of like a Google versus Bing thing. Or they have to differentiate and not just in the market, but in terms of developers. So Meta does what Google always used to do, which was open source anything that they did. And the reason that they're doing that is there's a scenario where

• 41:33Speaker 01

  If you can let a thousand flowers bloom and a thousand different, Chris and I, I think, talked about this on your show, like the AI varietals thing. Like if you, if you have a thousand different models and this one is trained slightly differently than that one, it gets different outputs, like that's the sort of way that you can differentiate. Meta has, has obviously an incentive to do that because OpenAI got ahead of them. You could argue that Google will have similar incentives. But one of, I was at an AI conference two weeks ago and it was all discussion about open source. And the, let me, let me give you the negatives about open source first is people are concerned about, well, you know, you throw a large language model out there that anyone can get off of GitHub

• 42:15Speaker 01

  or Hugging Face or whatever, and then, you know, terrorists can use it to do bad things. People can use it to create misinformation and or X, Y, and Z. But the, the sense is, is that the open source stuff is, we're never going to be able to innovate and create the Airbnb of this moment. If the, the actual models are behind this firewall of OpenAI and they don't tell you how it works. Because then all you're left with is a scenario where people can build businesses that are just thin wrappers based off of OpenAI APIs. Okay, so if people are excited about this moment and they want to grab hold of the, the future of it,

• 42:57Speaker 01

  they feel like they need, they need it to be open source so that they can own the models. Okay, and one of the things that I said to a lot of the startups that I talked to at this conference is you have to understand that not only does Meta want this to work that way, the VC class of which, obviously I'm a part, wants it to work this way too. Because that's, again, if you're the biggest VC firms in the world, your Sequoias or your Andreessen Horowitzes or whomever, even if they're already invested in OpenAI. They need an ecosystem to grow up around this stuff. Otherwise, again, OpenAI or just the biggest model wins. And so I said to a lot of the startups that I met there is I'm glad that everybody is

• 43:42Speaker 01

  exploring open source for this technology. But if you're being pushed to do it, keep in mind that the incentives by the people that are pushing you to do it are their own. Meta wants to unseat OpenAI. The VC class wants to create a bunch of startups that will be the next OpenAI. So I think that people are excited about open source being the the the the future of AI. But I would caution a lot of people to understand why a lot of people are shouting that right now.

• 44:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, let's okay, so let's go then one level deeper. Why does Meta want to unseat OpenAI in your opinion?

• 44:20Speaker 01

  I mean, everybody's going to want to in the sense that if you believe like I do that this is a this is a new compute paradigm in the sense of how you're going to interact with compute, that works for.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  What is what does Meta do? Their social network, essentially, I mean, really, their business is selling ads, but you can throw AI into that. But so Meta needs to control the fact that what if five years from now, social networks are really maybe you don't talk to your friends as much as you talk to your favorite bot? That you've maybe created their personality, you've trained it on everything that you've got on your phone or your computer, and so it knows you. And so the bot becomes your friend. Or what if five years from now, social networking is all of our bots interacting with each other on social media or in VR or in AR? Meta does not want to be in a position where the only way they can do that with a high degree of of accuracy and efficacy is to have to ping somebody else's APIs.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Because again, they'll be in the position that they have been with with like the iPhone and Android all these years is they don't own the platform that their service fundamentally sits on. That's why Meta needs it.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  But also, one of the things that I've said on my show is that Meta's looking at what OpenAI is doing and is thinking, how did OpenAI create these products? They trained it on the internet. They trained it on users' content. Who has more user content than Meta from their family of apps? There is a scenario where, within two years, Meta has the best LLM because it has access to more. Meta will shut off OpenAI's ability to be trained. Like, you're already seeing Reddit shut off OpenAI from training on their content.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Like, who's in a better position to be the dethroner of OpenAI than Meta is? They've got the PhDs, they've got the science, they've got the patents, and they have the content that you can train this next generation of technology on.

• 46:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  Think there's any level of envy in terms of how Zuckerberg feels about Sam Altman?

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Zuckerberg, to my sense of him, has envy for anybody that... I mean, Bill Gates had this too. Anybody that's successful in a field that he thinks he could be successful in. Yeah, he's like, why not me? But I also think that he's in a better position now because, you know, the phrase is that the leaders often end up with a bunch of arrows in their back. Because the two companies that are best positioned, in my mind, to challenge OpenAI are Meta and Google. I mean, Google created the technology that allows the current attention-based generative AI,

• 47:18Speaker 01

  transformer-based AI to happen. But Facebook has been... had a decade of the best AI minds under their roof as well. And then, like I said, they have the content that they can train this stuff on. So if someone's gonna dethrone... If OpenAI is and also ran within three years, I bet it'll be Meta. My money would be on Meta that would dethrone them and then maybe Google slash Alphabet.

• 47:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay, great. So let's just do, um, let's go lightning round through our next two topics, crypto and Apple, uh, Apple's new, new launch event. Uh, one of the things that you wrote to me while we were talking, discussing about what we're going to talk is, is wither crypto. I mean, to me, it seems pretty obvious. I mean, crypto is, is, is disgraced in many ways. And maybe there's going to be something emerged from the rubble.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  I have to point out that today on October 24th, Bitcoin just surged to $35,000 a coin.

• 48:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  No.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  You didn't know that? Yes. Because apparently, um, everyone believes that the first Bitcoin ETF is, is, uh, about to be announced. Um, so yeah, for the Bitcoin hit a high, the highest it's been, um, in 18 months. Um, now Bitcoin, you can make the argument that Bitcoin is almost a separate story than the larger crypto ecosystem. I don't know that Solana has come back to its highs of 18 months ago or whatever, or Ethereum. But, um, so having said that, and so if we look like idiots, if you're listening to this three months from now, because crypto all of a sudden is a hundred thousand dollars a coin, or Bitcoin is, um, what we're talking about is two years ago, when we were on like the Twitter spaces and the clubhouse rooms

• 49:04Speaker 01

  or whatever, we were all talking about crypto and NFTs and all the web three goodness and stuff. And I think that you're alluding to the, the sense that I get as well, which is like the energy has gone out of that. They're still the same people that are in the space. I'm not saying they've evaporated, but the overall energy.

• 49:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, some of them are in jail.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  That, that's true. Uh, do you agree with me that you feel like that the energy or at least the chatter that was there around crypto, um, this year sort of dimmed like it, we felt like it was starting to do at the beginning of the year?

• 49:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh yeah. I mean, if you think about pandemic, like zero interest rate crypto versus now, like that was a fully inflated balloon and this is a sad piece of bursted rubber.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Well, let me, let me, let me again caveat this by saying, if you think Alex and I are just talking about price, that's not what we're talking about because again, two years ago, three years ago, there were new ideas. And as much as people did and still do laugh at things like NFTs or fintech around, like, again, the things that blew up and people went to jail for, which is like all of these crypto lending things that were giving you 18% returns and turned out to be Ponzi schemes or whatever. But there was a period of time where there was this flowering of a ton of new ideas. And I don't see like a new idea around lending or, you know, putting

• 50:37Speaker 01

  your mortgage on the blockchain and stuff like that. Like, there was a time when that was every day and like, I don't hear that. No, maybe I'm not listening in the right spaces.

• 50:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's because people like their houses and they don't want to lose them. Sorry. I don't know. I feel, I guess I'm just getting out of these SBF trial hearings and I'm feeling salty.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, all right. I get it. And one of the things is, is that the people that used to yell at me on my show when I would do two stories or three stories of crypto in a day and they're like, what is this? The crypto ride home? And I was like, listen, it was for a time the biggest story in tech.

• 51:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  No doubt. Absolutely.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  And I mean, I can go entire weeks without mentioning a crypto story now. So to the degree that Alex or I are a barometer of this sort of stuff for the broader tech thing, I think that, yeah, right now, it's a, it's another lull. I mean, maybe it'll come back for all we know.

• 51:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  I don't discount the idea that blockchain technology might end up being, I mean, it is being used in many different places and there's going to be some innovation that comes out of it. But whether it reinvents the web or reinvents the way that we do things, it seems questionable at best. Okay, last, last story. Apple just announced, or if you're listening on Saturday, earlier this week announced, they have a new event happening Halloween Eve called Scary Fast. And the idea is that they're going to announce a new Max and

• 52:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Mac has been one of those products that have been troubled for them. I'm curious, speaking of things that used to be exciting and now are seemingly not, do you think there's going to be any buzz at all? I mean, it's interesting that they're even announcing it's like seven days before this event.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Well, also, it's interesting, I work with the editors at TechMeme and we were trying to look, they've never, the event's at 5pm on Monday. They usually do Tuesday events. They never do events in the evening that we couldn't find, at least in the history of TechMeme, when they had done a 5pm Eastern Time at Night event. And then you're saying Macs. What we've been speculating in the Slack is, is Scary Fast means that we think that it's gonna be about the M3 chip. Because if you think about it, even if they were just gonna upgrade, even if they were gonna upgrade the Mac Pro line or whatever, and the rumors initially were, oh, they're gonna upgrade the iMac line,

• 53:11Speaker 01

  because the iMac line, as it exists right now, is two and a half years old, I think. They could do that just by doing a press release and like, you know, updating the store. The fact that they're doing a special event at a special time and it's called Scary Fast, says to me that they are excited to tell us about the M3 and they must have something that they think is significant to tell us about how those chips perform. Now, they'll probably also announce putting them into new Macs as well. But I think that what we're gonna see, and this is claim shouter for, you know, if you listen to this after Monday, I think it's all about the M3.

• 53:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, I would be stoked for that. I mean, even though the juice has come out of these events a little bit, I'm on like a five-year-old desktop at this point. And having that compared to the Apple, the MacBook Pro with the M2 chip, it's just, it feels so slow. Like, I have a great setup with the desktop and I just find myself wanting to work on the laptop all the time. So, I don't know, man, if this is what's coming down, then I guess sign me up for these new machines. M3, here we go, baby.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote from our resident Mac expert inside the Tech Meme Slack. I won't name him, however. Uh, I don't think they'd have a weird event time like this if there were just big chassis form factor changes. It also feels weird if it's just M3 refreshes across the board. So I really don't know what to expect, but something tells me either it's something bigger than those two things, or those two things combined will be bigger than what we're all expecting.

• 54:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  Scare me, Tim Cook. Hmm. Scare me. I'm ready for it. All right, Brian, thank you so much for the time. This was great. Always great to speak with you.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Thank you, Alex, and congratulations on Big Technology Premium. Everyone, go check it out. If you want to see my immediate takes on the big news in the, in the roundtable, you gotta subscribe to Big Technology Premium.

• 55:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, thanks again for being a part of the panel. Again, it's bigtechnology.com. You can get it there. 30% off. No, 25% off for our launch special. It's a great deal. I hope you go check it out. And, uh, and if you're not on the free list, then try the free list and see if you want to upgrade. Again, we'll have a story about this meta open AI fight up there on Friday. So, also, one last thing to our listeners. If you don't subscribe to Tech Meme Right Home now, I recommend it. It's a great listen. Gets you up to date on everything going on in the tech world every day, hosted by none other than Brian. So.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Me. Thank you, Alex.

• 55:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, everybody. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you, Big Technology listeners. Thank you, Tech Meme Right Home listeners. Thank you, LinkedIn, for having me as part of your podcast network. Thanks to everybody who's willing to go give this Big Technology Premium a try. And, uh, and, uh, again, it's a pleasure bringing you this show. Stay tuned. Friday, Ron John Roy will be on. We're going to talk about the latest in tech, especially tech earnings this week. Big week of earnings. I'm preparing to go on CNBC to talk about Amazon and others on Thursday, so we'll break that down. And then next Wednesday, an interview with Tekejra Mawakana, the co-CEO of Waymo, more self-driving car talk. Plenty of new details, really fun conversation. Hope you stay tuned for that, and we will see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.

• 56:54Speaker 03

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  In this life, you can't win.

• 57:26Speaker 05

  When the world gets you down.

• 57:27Speaker 04

  No!

• 57:28Speaker 05

  Escape to Pluto TV.

• 57:29Speaker 04

  This is objectively fantastic.

• 57:31Speaker 05

  Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free.

• 57:35Speaker 04

  Shwing!

• 57:36Speaker 05

  Even our news is uplifting.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  You stay classy, San Diego.

• 57:39Speaker 05

  Watch School of Rock, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more.

• 57:44Speaker 04

  We're not worthy!

• 57:46Speaker 05

  The best things on TV really are free. You just have to know where to look. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.