Will Apple (Finally) Get AI Right At WWDC?, Anthropic’s Worry, Microsoft vs. OpenAI

Ranjan Roy from Margins is back for our weekly discussion of the latest tech news. We cover: 1) Does WWDC matter, or is it all about iPhones? 2) Apple's plan to build AI into the operating system 3) Apple finally seems to be building to the technology's capabilities 4) But... Apple may still waitlist people for forthcoming features 5) Anthropic says AI might be close to being able to improve itself 6) Is that marketing? 7) Can Anthropic stay ethical as a public company? 8) Microsoft and OpenAI are now in direct competition 9) Microsoft is building models, is OpenAI building a cloud? 10) Let's go Knicks Join us for the Big Technology AI Summit: https://summit.bigtechnology.com --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack + Discord? Here’s 25% off for the first year: https://www.bigtechnology.com/subscribe?coupon=0843016b Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Will Apple finally get AI right at WWDC? Anthropic is worried about runaway AI improvement, and Microsoft and OpenAI, once partners, are in head-on competition. That's coming up on a Big Technology Podcast Friday edition right after this. This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put Agentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, head of enterprise business solutions at Voya Financial, to go inside a large-scale Agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions,

• 0:44Speaker 00

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• 1:18Speaker 00

  Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday edition, where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. We have a lot of news to break down for you this week, including a full preview of seemingly everything that's going to happen at WWDC, Apple's big cornerstone event coming on Monday. We also have news that Anthropic is worried about runaway AI improvement. I'm sure Ronjohn is going to buy that hook, line, and sinker. And then we're also going to talk about Microsoft and OpenAI, once partners now competing head-on. Joining us as always on Fridays to do it is Ronjohn Roy of Margins. Ronjohn, good to see you.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  You already got me there. Hook, line, and sinker.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  I was pasting that story into our document, and I was with every paragraph, like anticipating your reaction, saying that it's marketing. So we'll have an interesting segment coming up.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Our prep doc is just one long opportunity for you to trigger me, Alex.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Starting with Siri.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Starting with Siri today.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Then go to Anthropic and then, I don't know where you stand on Microsoft. Open AI. All right, but let's build some tension here. It's gonna be an exciting final segment.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Let's, let's build the tension here.

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Legendary debate. Okay, but seriously, should talk about the Siri thing. I'm actually so, so I'm about to fly out to San Francisco for, well, I thought it was gonna be WWDC. It looks like I am on the banned list this year, but anyway.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Wait, really?

• 2:41Speaker 00

  I'll be in proximity if, if, if nothing else.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, hold on. I'm trying to remember. Did you go last year where you were already disinvited?

• 2:49Speaker 00

  I have been. Yes, I've been to WWDC at least the last two years. So this year, no luck.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  No?

• 2:58Speaker 00

  No luck, but I'm gonna, I am gonna, it's not Tim anymore, it's John.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Tarnus, Tarnus.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  All right, I'm gonna cross my fingers and maybe I'll get in and have a report from you, for you from the ground then. But you know what? Maybe you don't even need to be in Cupertino to get the WWDC rundown. Cause it looks like Mark Gurman has like every detail of what Apple is about to announce. And we're gonna run through all the big announcements that Apple's gonna make at WWDC. Uh, and give you our perspective on it. And I'll start off saying that I read this and, um, left immediately extremely optimistic about where Apple is heading. It seems like the company is finally understanding the way that it can use artificial intelligence uh, in its products, uh, and the fact that it doesn't need to build everything.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  And let me start with, before we get into the actual announcements, Rajan, if you will, let me start just with the context here for Apple. Because, you know, while we've said that WWDC and the AI work that they're doing is the most important thing the company can do. At this moment, at least in the near term, it hasn't been the case, right? Company is surging right now on the back of iPhone 17 sales. It did 140 plus billion, uh, in the first quarter, which is sort of the traditional Q4 for everybody else. 111 billion in the most recent quarter. Its stock is up 56% over the past year, and this is all pre-AI. There's no AI competitor device. So before we get into this Siri announcement, because we will spend a lot of time on that.

• 4:30Speaker 00

  Let's just talk about the big framing here. Am I right in thinking that we shouldn't get too crazily concerned for Apple, thinking, speaking specifically about the company and the business about AI? Because up until now, it hasn't factored.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  No, I think Apple still is an iPhone selling machine, even though myself and plenty of others have questioned whether this is actually a sustainable business model. And I have not upgraded since the 15, even though I bought every new iPhone for like a 10-year period. I mean, it's clear the business is healthy, at least on a relative basis. The core business is, I mean, it's when I say healthy, it's still just generating ungodly amounts of revenue on a continued basis. So we have to give them that separate from all the entire AI conversation. And to their credit, they're doing it without any genuine innovation on the actual product side either in a number of years.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  So Apple, congratulations on just having us all locked into your ecosystem and continuing to sell us products. My left AirPod keeps buzzing and I'm probably just going to go out and buy the AirPods 3 Pro. So they got us. Do you think it's healthy?

• 5:46Speaker 00

  What, the business?

• 5:47Speaker 01

  The business. Let's start there.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely it is. And by the way, I think you're underrating the 17. I think the 17 is a crazy machine and it's much better than any phone to come before. So I'm happy to have it.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  But okay. Hold on, sorry. You are saying, do you believe there's been genuine product innovation from Apple? Are you going to stand by that statement that the iPhone 17 is truly a revolutionary product?

• 6:11Speaker 00

  No, it's, no, I've always said that they're refiners, not revolutionaries under Tim Cook, and that's been the case. But they have refined, they've made the camera better, they've made the battery life better, the computing more powerful. And through refining all this, they've made a, yeah, a great device. And by the way, the revolutionary devices, no one's built them. Despite OpenAI trying to do it, despite Meta trying to do it, despite Google trying to do it, despite Amazon trying to do it, we don't have any revolutionary AI computing device yet. It's not here.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  I still, the Meta, the Meta glasses, I genuinely, I consider, okay, it's not like, maybe it's not as magical as when the first iPhone came out, but there's devices out there. I'm gonna put, let me think, Meta glasses, certainly. The Apple Watch, I will give credit, was in its time revolutionary as well. AirPods when they first came out, foldable phones right now. There are, it's happening, just now.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Let me reframe this for both of us, right?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Maybe the revolutionary AI device is going to be the iPhone. And, and when you look through the announcements, you start to see a different strategy from Apple. The first was, you know, the Apple Intelligence rollout two years ago was this big rollout, like, let us dream up what AI could do and sort of put together this visionary, ambitious plan. This is a much more scaled back version of that, but it seems to be at least in accordance with what the technology can do. So let me give you a couple of examples of what's gonna happen. This is from the German story. There's a new Siri. It was known as Project Campo internally. It sits at the center of Apple's renewed AI strategy.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  The idea is to transform the assistant from a voice control system to a do-it-all companion, letting users handle tasks across iOS, iPadOS, and macOS through the day. It will also be easier to control both in-house and outside apps using Siri. To power this new assistant, Apple is relying on a Gemini model from Google, the company that is both a rival and a longtime partner. In addition to using Google's underlying technology as part of a billion-dollar agreement, the company is hosting much of the new Siri on Google servers. Apple has long touted its ability to safeguard user data, so the arrangement may spark privacy question. Okay, there's, they are expanding Siri beyond this sort of...

• 8:32Speaker 00

  Weird magic trick to actually interface with devices. But now here's the thing, let me say this one last thing and then turn it over to you. What I am impressed by with Apple is they are realizing that they have an interface advantage. They own the mobile operating system, at least for iPhone users. And they're going to use that to flex and say, all right, AI device, you own AI device. We'll build you an AI device. We'll build it right within our operating system. From the German story. Apple plans to let users swipe down from the top center of the iPhone to launch a new search or ask interface. The new command will open a revamped experience designed for getting things done or searching by typing through voice, though voice control remains an option in the search or ask page.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Users can launch apps, start text messages, ask about the weather, add calendar appointments, sift through notes, trigger shortcuts within apps, or search the web using AI. That to me seems the right way to do it.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  I think, all right, let me try to be not political here, but let me try to be nuanced. This is the most basic AI stuff imaginable. This is even, this is like the most basic user experience stuff imaginable. Like, yes, we are all able to dictate to our phones. I know Apple's native dictation is bad and I use Whisper Flow. I do most of my search via AI as well. Again, but I do recognize, as you said, the iPhone could be the AI kind of like interaction layer. And there's still a lot of people who don't use AI like really in an integrated manner

• 10:13Speaker 01

  in their day and Apple still has that opportunity. But none, and maybe it's good. None of this feels, all of this stuff feels like stuff that is so basic to me that it's kind of shocking that this feels like an announcement. But maybe that's actually good because that they can actually get it done rather than just having Bella Ramsey on an ad two years early.

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Okay, so I know it sounds underwhelming. And, you know, as the guy who just got disinvited from WWDC, you know, I'm far not the first one to take Apple's side on this one. But let me explain to you why I think that this makes sense. Okay? Alexander Wang, the guy who's running Meta Superintelligence Labs, was at the Bloomberg Tech Conference this week, whatever it was. He said, this is a quote from him, "Ultimately, what we're really excited to build for the world are the best personal agents." Right? The thing is, to get to Meta's agent, you have to open up your iPhone and tap on some agent functionality. We've talked in this conversation already

• 11:19Speaker 00

  about a swipe down in the operating system being something that will immediately take you to Apple's AI experience where you can search and ask. That's going to be powered, by the way, they're going to bring in lots of different models. So there's going to be a model switcher that will enable you to pick the model you want. And at the top, I talked about how, what is Siri going to be? A do-it-all companion, letting users handle tasks across iOS and control in-house and outside apps using Siri. This is the vision of the personal agent lived out within iOS. Even if Meta's is better, even if OpenAI's is better, they're not going to have access to the operating system.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  And that gives Apple a chance, building on top of Google technology, which isn't shabby, to sort of use the force of its advantage and maybe if not win, at least factor heavily into this AI race.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  All right, I'll give you that. I mean, just the value of inertia, the value of being where customers already and users already are. There is tremendous value, especially at like a mass scale and the general population with AI. I think, I think there is a huge opportunity there. And actually, I'll admit, I have started using Google's follow-on AI mode, where you do a Google search and then you ask questions after. And I almost feel like dirty doing it. It feels like the most like, kind of just hacky, clunky. It's just not a good-looking interface. It's, but it's, I actually have started using it more just because I still will, every now and then, go into Google search to quickly search something.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  So, so the value of being there, I think, is, is good. Where I would still caution, and actually back to that example around Meta and personal agents, where Apple, I think, is potentially getting into trouble. Is even, and I honestly hated this paragraph where it's like customers will be able to do more advanced tasks like telling Siri to write an email by giving it topics and information and asking it to pull the message together. Like, come on, that is ever, that's GPT 3.5 right there. But

• 13:30Speaker 00

  I'm not picked into the operating system.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  No, but here's where it's going to get technologically challenging. Having spent the last year and a half building agentic systems at Writer, I know where things can like break and where things are more stable and easier. The idea that you're going to be able to access any app on your phone and data across all these various systems is actually a very technologically challenging thing. I think that's probably what's held Apple back so far. Like, if they just limited it to, like, it can't even be email, because then does Gmail, Gmail owns your email side of it. They keep talking about, they're like, for the first time, users can

• 14:15Speaker 01

  ask Siri when they're available for appointments before scheduling something. Does that have to make, mean that your iCal is connected to your Google Calendar if you're a Google Calendar customer? Just managing that data, knowing which app to call related to a specific task, is a lot easier when it's a small universe of options. If they're really going to kind of own those kind of data routing systems across your entire phone, that's actually a hard technological problem to solve and can get, adds a lot of unpredictability. So, do you think they're going to pull it off? Or, or how do you, how do you think they roll it out? Do you think they do it, we're just going to have email and calendar appointments

• 14:57Speaker 01

  on day one? Do you think I can pull up a YouTube video?

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Via prompt, via voice prompt, how do you think they're gonna do it?

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Okay, so those are two separate questions, and I think they're both worth answering separately. So, you know, the question is whether they can, the first question is whether they can pull this off. And, you know, it's interesting because I was reading through the announcement. Here's another one that they have in, well, it's not the announcement, it's just German, but German's that good. Here's another one. The company is planning to allow users to throw multiple commands at Siri at once. The feature will let people combine requests. For example, asking Siri to check the weather, creating a calendar appointment, and send a message all within a single prompt. And I read that and I was like, this type of things that they're, these things that they're talking about, they're catching up to where the technology is, right?

• 15:47Speaker 00

  When you're in ChatGPT, it does have an understanding, or in Claude, it does have an understanding of like, it can handle multiple prompts at once, it kind of knows where to go. So if Apple can mirror that, then that makes a lot of sense. The question is, will they be able to? So before we get to how they're rolling it out, I think you're really keen to hit on this because, or really, really incisive to hit on this. Because ultimately, it seems like the ambition is not at a step with where the technology is. The question is, can they execute? Do you think they can?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  I, what do you think first?

• 16:25Speaker 00

  The only answer I have is they haven't shown us they can.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Okay, I think that was a good answer, that was a good one.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  But the vision is not ridiculous.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  It's not, I agree, it's not ridiculous. It's not ridiculous. Any company within reason of their scale and like history should execute on this. But I like how you put that. They haven't shown us yet that they can.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  So then, what's your gut check in terms of whether they can or they can't? You're the one that's been asking for better Siri for forever.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  I want them to, that's why, it's like, I don't want to say an abusive relationship, but I, it's been so many times I've wanted to believe in them. So many times, starting with Bella Ramsey, kind of like ignoring, not listening to her dinner companion, but still, I think. Writing an email to them or whatever that ad was two years, two years ago. I mean, the fact that they actually position themselves as being able to provide this as a service two years ago, I think actually now, now it's even making me think how fundamentally they misunderstood the actual technology back then. I just hope, I want them to, I don't think they can.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  I don't think they're going to.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  So the question is, so the question isn't, this is progress for Apple. This is what I'm kind of saying.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  They have made progress. They understand the technology. They're actually showing us a vision that aligns with the technology's capabilities. And they probably have Google, whether it's, you know, forward deployed engineers or whatever you want to call them, or Demis himself, they sure have Google in there working with them to ensure that this is deployed successfully because it's Google's reputation on the line as well. All right, Google doesn't want to be part of a failure here. So the execution part is a big question, but you know, at least this is something that's a target that is reachable.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Wait, actually, how do you think that Google Apple relationship works? And the reason I ask is, I have a Pixel 9, just, it's not a burner phone. I just got it at some point, I think relatively inexpensively, and I wanted to like have an Android phone as well for testing. Like, the way Google Assistant is integrated into the overall phone is all of this. It's done all of this for the last year and it does it well. Even Alexa Plus on the Echo show does all of this really well. So it should be table stakes. It's where the technology is today, but is Google incentivized to make this work?

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Well, I don't even, not even looking at the agreement, you would imagine they were, they would be because it's Gemini's name that's going to be there.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Well, and it's consumption at a massive scale. Like, actually, is Apple going to pay Google on a consumption basis? The more people use it, the...

• 19:17Speaker 00

  No, no, the, sorry, the, the stories seem to indicate that they basically distilled their version of Siri from Gemini.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, but then, the better this gets, the worse it is for Google's hardware business. Like, this still represents, again, I had not thought about moving from Apple and I get so frustrated with Siri that I've... Looked up the Pixel Fold a number of times and I'm not ready to drop 1,800 bucks and completely remove myself of the Apple ecosystem, but like, that is a threat to them. And that is an opening for Google. But I guess they're basically, they just signed away the model kind of adaptation rights to Apple. But beyond that, they don't really care, is what we're saying.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, ultimately, if you're Google, right, and this becomes, are you asking if this becomes a defining feature of the phone? Is Google hurting themselves by selling this to Apple?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  Yes and no. I mean, yes, they're gonna power like they're, they're, they're our rivals, right? It's like number one and number two in terms of phone makers. But they also have great power over Apple, right? Because they're gonna make another more powerful model, and Apple's gonna wanna distill that. And they're gonna make another more powerful model.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  No, that's true.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  And Apple's gonna wanna distill that. And at a certain point, if they see that, oh, we have a chance to like decimate the iPhone, I don't think they're gonna be making all these deals. So it's great power in the hands of Google.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Okay, I like that. I like that.

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Okay, so now that I've made the case that Apple is thinking the right way and has a good chance of being able to execute this, even though we haven't seen them do it before, so we're gonna, you know, hold our praise until we see it. There is a disconcerting line in German's report that I'm gonna read to you, because you asked about the rollout, and then get your reaction. "Apple has labeled the new Siri as a beta and preview internally, suggesting that the assistant won't be marketed as a fully finished software when it's released later this year. The original Siri held the same description for two years. There is also the possibility of a waitlist or some sort of people who wanna, of some sort of

• 21:29Speaker 00

  people, of some sort, for people who want to try new features and approach, an approach used with the initial launch of Apple, the Apple Intelligence platform in 2024." Your reaction?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Oh, God. I was just getting excited. And this, okay, hold on.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  The upside, I would prefer they actually more strongly take this approach rather than having a heavy glossy marketing campaign that indicates that everything is perfect. But this is just giving me PTSD of that first Apple Intelligence launch. Again, I think nearly two years ago. I remember sitting there and like enabling Apple Intelligence on my phone, thinking it was going to do something. And it really is one of the worst kind of product rollouts. I don't want to say in history, but it's been pretty bad. So I was just starting to get excited that maybe they had a really coherent strategy and were believing in the execution. But I'm going to wait and see. I'm going to wait and see and hope.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  But that just made me a little more uncertain. Do you, do you think, does this make you more or less excited?

• 22:40Speaker 00

  Less excited. I mean, I definitely held that out, you know, caveat at the end. I would say if I were to sum up this, my perspective on this, it is three things. One, AI doesn't matter as much to Apple as, you know, the narrative makes it seems like, at least in the short term. We're really going to have to wait for a AI device to really matter for Apple to start to say that their failures on AI are going to really stack up and add to anything. Now, that's not, that doesn't mean they're going to be safe forever, but they're at least safer now. So that's point one. Point two is, I think that the positive sign, like I said before, is that they are actually building to the technology's capabilities

• 23:24Speaker 00

  as opposed to like something they dreamed up, you know, in a conference room in Cupertino together. But then there's the worry. And the worry is the execution. And while they should be in a better position to execute this time. That line about the waitlist worries me, worries me for sure.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Do you think the failure of execution has been, what's the term? Is it Dutch disease where like it's where you have oil or oh man.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  Natural resource curse?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Okay, it is Dutch disease and originally it was around the massive influx of foreign currency. But yeah, the idea, it's like a resource curse that when you have some specific resource, it kind of distorts your ability to kind of develop other parts of the economy within a nation.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  It shouldn't be because, oh, go ahead, go ahead.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Well, no, I mean, those iPhones are still selling. They haven't, I mean, maybe you believe they have dramatically approved. I would tend to argue that it's been, yeah, at least you said refining, not revolutionizing. But again, when you're selling iPhones at that clip and everyone keeps buying them and I'm about to go spend 250 bucks to replace an AirPod, like you just don't have the internal energy and incentive to actually build these kinds of things.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  If you look throughout big tech, you will see companies with natural resources and the ones that these tech giants have been able to stay on top because they haven't sat on their laurels and they've realized they have a natural resource, but they still need to innovate. That goes to everyone, like Google, for instance.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Greatest natural monopoly of all time.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  And you can see that they're, I mean, they've been big on AI for the last decade. So to me, it's not, you know, maybe it's part natural resource curse for Apple, but I shouldn't, we shouldn't, I don't think we should wave it away as saying it's just a natural resource curse. I think it is a cultural issue and I've been on record about this for a long time. The culture of Apple is very high on its own supply and they believe that the culture that they've built is responsible for the creation of the iPhone. And while it was, that also came from Steve Jobs. And so they've remained this refined Jobs idea culture, even though they don't have jobs anymore and they are sort of so.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Happy about the way that they do things or proud of the way they do things that they will not try any other model. That's why.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're, I mean, yeah, Google completely disproves my point, but I still my, one of my favorite hot takes is that Google's entire AI transformation success can be traced back to the fact that Sundar was a McKinsey alum and looks at everything in terms of like organizational design and change management. So basically if Tim Cook was McKinsey, they'd be fine. I stand by it. This is a pro McKinsey podcast now.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  It is interesting because the McKinsey model of like, like we talked about the engine room and farming it out to the product areas. I just spoke about this with MG on Monday. It might help make the specific products better, but the question is, can you build a unified assistant with, with that model? Because you still have this centralized division working with the product areas within Google like Gmail and Maps and Search. But if we're going to move towards a quote unquote, super app, you know, you're going to need these product areas to subcede their egos to sort of make that centralized app work, right? Again, like you were talking previously, what's the cutting edge now? It's learning

• 27:19Speaker 00

  what to call, right? It's learning what systems to tap into. And if you have a lot of systems that, you know, sort of prefer that people spend time within them or prefer priority over others, it's going to be tough in the centralized assistant world.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  On the topic of super app, in a bit, we're going to get to one of the other stories where we'll discuss it more. And I have some gripes, but I, one of the most interesting parts of this was one of the biggest additions this year is a dedicated Siri app for holding conversations and continuing past chats. Users can jump into the Siri app by pulling down on a result. So basically, Dedicated Siri app, running conversations, basically your ChatGPT-ish style assistant. Do you think Siri is going to become the super app one to two years from now?

• 28:10Speaker 00

  I think that's Apple's ambition. I mean, that's part of the ambition, for sure.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Do you think there was a slide deck Siri, the super app?

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Super app.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Somewhere, some super app Siri.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Probably. I mean, if you, I mean, the truth is iOS is a super app, right? So these apps become operating systems of their own, right? That, to me, is like the real, the real question in terms of the viability of Apple's business model moving forward. It's if the chatbot and the AI becomes the operating system, what's your answer to it? So you would imagine that they're thinking about that exactly the way that you said.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Super app Siri.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Okay, so we'll, we'll obviously watch and come back next week and talk a little bit about what we've seen. In the meantime, we should definitely talk about, about Anthropic telling us that AI may be close to recursive self-improvement, and maybe it's time to slow it all down. And then, of course, Microsoft and OpenAI, once partners, now starting to battle it out for the crown. That's coming up right after this. This episode is brought to you by App Point. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now. Co-pilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data, and most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what App Point does.

• 29:28Speaker 00

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• 30:08Speaker 00

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• 30:53Speaker 00

  and how to lock it down before a threat reaches their front door. That's ironwell.com/bigtechnology. Learn how to stop online threats before they become real-world attacks. The link's in the show notes.

• 31:07Speaker 00

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• 31:51Speaker 00

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com/bigtech. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/bigtech. And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition with Ron John Roy of Margins, as we do every Friday. Ron John, I thought of you when I saw the headline of Anthropic's latest blog post, or really, an article. The headline is "When AI Builds Itself Our Progress Towards Recursive Self-improvement."

• 32:26Speaker 00

  And its implication. This is from the story. Anthropic engineers on average ship eight times as much code per quarter as they did from 2021 to 2025. That is, of course, with the assistance of AI models like Mythos. The rare occurrences of misalignment present in today's models could compound as the models build their successors, growing more frequent but less understood until we lose control of them. The argument is basically AI has made engineers much more productive than they were previously. They're still a human in the loop. There may not need to be. And if there doesn't need to be, there could be some problems. What did you think when

• 33:07Speaker 00

  you saw this and the numbers, the posts, the ideas? What was your reaction?

• 33:12Speaker 01

  I can't even right now. I actually, I think one of the things that it is funny, I feel we're at the point of the market cycle where I'm like gonna be citing Ed Zitron more, who has been quite a bear. And I still vehemently disagree with him on the potential of the technology itself. But I liked he had said after this announcement is like, get some fucking new material, please. And like, I mean, it's just, like, we have heard this over and over again. We I talked a lot about this a few weeks ago when like the Mythos announcement was so and developer eating a sandwich in the park and receiving

• 33:54Speaker 01

  a message that had broken out of containment was a very clear kind of PR coordinated message push. It's my question to Anthropic is, as they are steamrolling ahead and obviously like to me, the one of the most interesting stories of the next two to three months is who gets out first and when SpaceX Anthropic OpenAI? How do they get out? It's this rush to get out to the public markets. If you want to slow things down, you can. You don't need to raise another $65 billion at a $950 valuation and then start kind of leaking

• 34:34Speaker 01

  that your S1 or I guess actually filing your S1. And like, if this is truly a risk to humanity that can pose significant societal risks and like, wouldn't you stop? Why wouldn't you like, what do you think it is? Do you think it's just? Do you think Dario believes this? Do you think there's a large group of people that do believe this, but then the marketers and business folks and growth folks override them? Do you think this? I know, I mean, we go over this a lot, but where's your head right now as we get closer to the Anthropic IPO of what really is behind this messaging? And what do people really believe?

• 35:18Speaker 00

  All right. First of all, I think that we should sort of tackle the core message here. And would you, before we go into what's going on within the company, would you agree at least that the AI coding tools from Anthropic have gotten way better and enabled people to do much more?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Six months ago, yes. I think the 4.8 was actually like, kind of like a pretty big dud.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Okay, but the line is pointing upward.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  No, no, of course, but none of that, if whatever exists in the last one month existed in their line of sight six to eight months ago. If that was truly the case, one would hope that decent people would be like, let's, let's figure this out. Let's, let's actually slow things down. Again, one to two months before your actual IPO, to continue this, maybe we should have, like, again, in terms of the actual qualification of risk of overall AI, I think it's just a separate conversation from this.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  For the sake of argument, you could argue,

• 36:30Speaker 00

  you could argue, double argue, anyway.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  But one day I'll learn. Any statement that starts with that, I'm excited for.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  That they did slow down to a degree by deciding not to release Mythos to everybody. And a lot of this coding improvement has happened because of Mythos internally.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  You're saying?

• 36:51Speaker 01

  That, okay, so you're still, for the sake of argument, you are arguing that that was the official slowdown. I don't know, like, is it still raising this much money, pushing ahead with this intensity, like, organizationally, like, one decision, maybe Mithos is this be-all, end-all god model that, like, will destroy humanity and they have

• 37:20Speaker 00

  No, no one's saying that.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  No, okay, no, no, I mean, we'll break the fabric of society by

• 37:25Speaker 00

  Maybe it's not, like, you know, so special. Maybe some of the latest OpenAI models can do similar things, but what it's trying to do is set this tone that's like, you know, if, if you can use this model to hack through things, we should be careful about the way we roll it out.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  No, I, I appreciate that idea, but still, then you don't roll it out, as we had to discuss, like, then you don't have a big press announcement with named partners, and then now there's reporting that they're apparently working with the NSA, and, like, again, they have the greatest PR and comms team in the world in terms of, like, understanding which stories can actually make it into the press. Like, you wouldn't do that. You would actually, in the background, coordinate and kind of work with everyone who is needed to, to try to actually solve this problem. It wouldn't be a PR release with a large consortium named.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  That's, that's why even that, if it were real, I still think it, it would be handled in a more, in a different way. Like, if it was real, like, I, I would not, how would you handle it? You have

• 38:35Speaker 00

  Only because, go ahead, go ahead.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  No, no, let's say you got a new model. You suddenly, Alex is sitting there in a Brooklyn apartment, has a bunch of, uh, has your own colossus set up, and suddenly you train, uh, can't, or it's 5.7, suddenly you're like, oh my God, this could, has the potential to

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Post significant societal risks. What do you do next?

• 39:03Speaker 00

  First of all, if I had a colossus set up in my Brooklyn apartment, I guarantee you the morning after I set it up, my wife would have every single one of those servers on the curb. We would finally have space in our apartment. So I promised you the next day, there would be racks and racks of Vera Rubens on the curb in Brooklyn. I promise you, doesn't matter how much they're worth. Okay, so now, what would I do? And this is what I was gonna say, only because you're so myopic about this, wouldn't you do exactly what they're doing? So this is the, this is the argument, right? The argument is, if you are, why keep pushing forward if you feel the technology is potentially

• 39:46Speaker 00

  dangerous? You keep pushing forward because you feel the technology, while you feel the technology is dangerous, because if you are building the leading models, you actually have a say in the way that the deployment works. People will listen to you. If Anthropic was GRO, was like meta right now, and had like, you know, whatever their, their, their latest, you know, model is that they're delaying, by the way, and they said, hey, you know, guys in the front, maybe slow it down, no one would listen to them. You, the argument is, you only really have influence on the way this works if you are leading, and the way that you do that is, you're loud about it.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  So you are taking the I alone can fix it approach?

• 40:30Speaker 00

  I'm not, I'm not, first of all, I'm not taking-

• 40:32Speaker 01

  This is you, this is you and your colossus, and you have just made a significant breakthrough.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Don't put this on me. I'm just trying to talk you through the other side of this argument.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  I like how in this thought experiment, you have just turned into this world, like, this James Bondian villain, but continue.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  No, I promise you, my real world experience with, of this would be waking up in a Tony Soprano bathrobe and walking out, getting the newspaper and seeing like-

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Seeing your colossus on the Brooklyn curb.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Black walls next to the fire hydrant. I promise you, okay?

• 41:03Speaker 01

  And that was actually, that slows down the destruction of humanity, and that's why she did it for you.

• 41:09Speaker 00

  That's right. So thank you for that.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  But no, but seriously, yeah, I mean, what is your, I just want to get your response to that argument that you you stay in the lead so people listen to you and you're loud because you want to have influence over the process.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  My response would be they have been saying this since the beginning. And I do, I do think there was a moment that they might have believed it, but no matter who is in the lead, OpenAI and Anthropic, Sam and Dario, but now the entire organizations, actually, OpenAI has pulled back from it, you can see, like, pretty purposefully. But this idea that this technology is so incredibly dangerous, yet I will continue to push ahead at full steam, has always been kind of the narrative, and it's helped them tremendously. I mean, what, have you ever heard Sundar say that? He said, it's fire. But, uh, which would be funny hearing.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  No, you haven't. But obviously Sundar's perspective is going to be different than theirs.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Why? Why?

• 42:16Speaker 00

  Well, I guess maybe obviously is the wrong word, but it, Google has always been more capitalistic, wouldn't you say? I mean, they removed Don't Be Evil, right? Like, they started that way, they became a normal company.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Oh, you're buying into it, Alex. You're buying into it. Raising $65 billion at a $950 billion valuation is about as capitalistic as it gets.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  No, okay. No, you're right. You're right. And, and let me now, I was saving this, but you've now sort of forced me to spit it out.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Speaking of Google, the most, okay, I learned a lot from Jeff Hinton when we sat down in that interview is on the feed from, uh, on, on, from the Wednesday show. The thing that will probably stay with me the longest from Hinton is not him saying AI is conscious, although I thought that was really interesting. It was our discussion about safety, and particularly whether Anthropic would be able to pursue its safety mission while on the public market. And as Hinton points out, when you IPO.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  You have a legal obligation to your shareholders to maximize profit and not to maximize AI safety. And I just don't see how it adds up where Anthropic continues to pursue the safety mission while it's legally required to maximize profit for shareholders.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you also have a legal obligation to not destroy humanity. I mean, again, my God, that's a hyperbolic statement, but like, I mean.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  Which side are you on, Roy?

• 43:42Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, but it's, it's like, again, if you can be Philip Morris turned Altria is a public company, but still has to abide by, you know, I guess those are actual regulations and they're not self-imposed, but like, still, we are, in 2026, the whole corporations is good. Everyone kind of moved past that. But like, still, I think if you have a fundamental technology that can pose significant societal risks, investors aren't, shouldn't like that if that were true.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Okay, let's just.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  That presents a risk. That presents.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  Let's give an example. Let's talk through an example. All right. Anthropic is public. It has Mythos. OpenAI has just released like a dynamic coding model, right? And, you know, yes, there's a cost benefit analysis. Yes, it might lead to more hacks, but it also will end up, you know, providing Anthropic with the ability to grow faster than OpenAI and head off this threat. Couldn't there be shareholder lawsuits if it, you know, decides to hold back Mythos because there's, you know, it's not an end of the world situation. It's okay, there's a few more cyber hacks that we want to be mindful about. It becomes much more difficult to do that when you're on the public market.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Are you saying that OpenAI presented the risks of Mythos as just a few more cyber hacks?

• 45:10Speaker 00

  No, you're saying Anthropic?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Sorry, Anthropic, Anthropic, yeah. Is just a few more cyber hacks, not a big deal. Maybe your Squarespace site goes down a couple of times.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  It's up to, first of all, it's up to the shareholders. And second, it becomes, wouldn't you agree it becomes much harder to hold something like that back if you're on the public market? That's all I'm saying.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I, I think it brings a lot more attention to it. And actually, the good thing is it would actually force more transparency around the reality of the situation.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  You just took my side. That's what I was trying to say the whole show.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  No, but, but I don't think it forces them. It adds, I don't think the legality of a shareholder lawsuit, because Anthropic in a competitive battle does not release the model that actually they have marketed themselves, presents significant risks and had to, like, national security, like, at every level. I think shareholders, the idea that they would sue that you did not release that to the general public when a competitor was being careless and callous, I don't think would happen. I don't know.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  All right.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  And nowadays, anything's possible in the financial markets, but...

• 46:28Speaker 00

  So, let me see if I can, I think there is consistency to your position here. And I think I reacted to something different in terms of your transparency is the transparency from the company, not transparency in the industry. Fair enough. Is your position that, right now, Anthropic telling us about all these, you know, models, and by the way, I mean, we've sort of, kind of, talked over it, but they did then, after saying that the models could recursively self-improve, say it might be a good idea for Frontier Building to pause for a bit. Okay? So is your position that them doing this, building and saying this, is actually marketing?

• 47:11Speaker 00

  And actually, they are a capitalist company, you know, as everybody else?

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  And don't, don't believe that stuff, it's marketing? And when they go public?

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Being public will still, you know, even though they are, you know, this, a company that does good marketing and is trying to maximize profit share, maximize shareholder value and doesn't have a special thing about privacy, a special thing about safety, they'll still be required to act with safety in mind. So it's not inconsistent.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Yes, I think so. I think, I think we've, we've aligned again.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  Well, I'm just repeating your, your point. I will, I will say it's a valid argument.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Are you agree? Okay, okay.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  I'm not ready to agree just yet, but I think it's a valid argument.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  But I want to bring it back to the beginning. Do you think the average anthropic employee is genuinely believes they own and like operate technology and in their own words that pose unprecedented cybersecurity risks severe enough to cause widespread disruption to the global financial system and critical infrastructure? A little more dramatic than a few cyber hacks.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  Okay, I have this, I, I, let's end with this. I have this actually from the Wall Street Journal story, a quote from one of our favorite sources, friend of the program, I guess, he's been on once, Ethan Malik, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School and an influential scholar on AI transformation. Here's what he told the Wall Street Journal. While some anthropic critics see fluff and marketing in their safety pronouncements, many within the company are true believers. AI labs are a mix of things, said Malik. There is a trillion dollar company with all the normal trillion dollar company stuff like marketing teams and lawyers. There is a core of researchers who are just building the next models. And then there is a set of people who are philosopher kings

• 49:04Speaker 00

  and concerned about the future and what comes next. And they're all in conflict with each other at times. I think that's about as good of an explanation as you're gonna get.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  We just talked about this. We've been talking about this for months. Ethan just, he just made it all make sense to me. Is, is this coexistence book gonna be about this concept, this idea?

• 49:27Speaker 00

  Oh, so he has a book, AI Coexistence, coming out in the fall, according to the story. I don't think it's gonna be about how these people coexist within anthropic. I think it's gonna be about us coexisting with AI, but hopefully we can bring him on the show and get him to talk about it.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Just coexistence. Let's, let's coexist together.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  We shall. Oh, speaking of coexistence, wow, that was a beautiful segue. Can Microsoft and OpenAI coexist? Microsoft has been on like the weirdest press tour this week. I don't know if you've paid attention to it, but they had this build event where they announced a bunch of their AI announcements. And the core thing was like, hey, look, you know, we are, we're not wedded to OpenAI anymore. So we can just go do our stuff and we're going to build like the best AI models. But a lot of it was like them talking about like how like we know, I mean, I guess you want to acknowledge that you're behind, just like Google did recently with the coding apps. But they really got taken to the cleaners in a couple of these pieces. My favorite line was one in The Verge. Let's see.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  For years, Microsoft AI business leaned hard on its early and exclusive partnership with OpenAI, but the drama-filled marriage slowly devolved into a situationship, and the pair effectively separated in late April. Though Microsoft is still OpenAI's primary cloud partner for now. This year's build had the vibe of a freshly single divorcee posting a thirst trap on Instagram. "It's always fun to be at developer conferences and great times have changed," Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella said on stage Tuesday, adding that events like this are about, are about coming to grips with the new opportunity. And to do that, Microsoft has basically said, all right, we are ready to go and compete head to head with OpenAI. The goal is to prove that we can

• 51:09Speaker 00

  become one of the top four labs in the world, Mustafa Suleyman, the head of one of Microsoft's AI divisions, told The Verge. He said, "There's three labs that matter: Google DeepMind, OpenAI, and Anthropic. We are not one of them at the moment, and that's always been my intention."

• 51:26Speaker 01

  I just love that Meta is not on there, even though, I mean, we kind of know it, but still, it's always interesting to see it placed that definitively. I've been thinking about this so...

• 51:39Speaker 01

  The same way Apple solely by owning the end user real estate with the iPhone has an opportunity, Microsoft certainly, I mean, we hear about this all the time. Everyone has Copilot, the tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people, whatever it is. Like, if they figure it out, it's interesting. Do you think there's a world where Microsoft and Apple a year from now are interesting in this? I'm not even gonna say are winning, but even the way Google, within a year, the span of a year, became a player, do you think Microsoft has a chance? Do you think Microsoft?

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  Sure. Why not? I mean, they have, like you said, they have Office, they have access to OpenAI's IP. I don't think they're like, well, here's a better question. I mean, like, first of all, okay, let me answer your question, then I'll ask my question to sort of end this. So I think there's a chance, and they have the, like you said, the products. I think there's a chance for Apple, they have the products. If you're Microsoft, why do you care about building foundational AI models? I seriously don't get it.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  I think it's because of Suleiman. I think it's like, this is one of those things organizationally, like, he's there. He's not there to like, build a new Copilot product feature. And my favorite still is in the most Microsoft way, which kind of Google seems to have moved past. Like, they have this new thing, Microsoft IQ, but there's also Work IQ, then there's Fabric IQ, then there's Foundry IQ, then there's Web IQ. Like, just their way they kind of roll out and name products is comical at times. But I think they, like, that's the stuff that, that layer is not interesting. Like, he was brought on and he has power within the organization, too. Be a player.

• 53:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  I think it's that simple.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  But I want to, I want to dig a level deeper on this. Um, all right. So he was brought on to do this. Why strategically is there a reason for Microsoft to do this?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  I don't think there is. I, in fact, I think the Apple, so I can tell you model routing has become like so dominant in conversations in my world now. Like it went from, you know, like just there's, you have to have the latest frontier model and they're all encompassing. And within the span of two months, everyone is like, find the right model for the right problem, model cost optimization, tokenomics. So, so if I'm Microsoft, I actually agree. I don't think that's the right approach. I think like, you know what? Let them all battle it out. Apple over there is going to suddenly make Siri a powerhouse because it's going to be

• 54:30Speaker 01

  called the best model at the time. And we're all going to forget about Bella Ramsey's ad. And maybe Microsoft has a, has a chance to.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Okay. Let me give one, one reason why they might do it. Satya Nadella is speaking to Ben Thompson in Strategery. So Ben Thompson tells Satya Nadella that OpenAI is a major tenant on Azure. He goes, they're a major tenant, but let's face it, face it. Anthropic over time or OpenAI over time will build their own. It makes sense. Pretty sure that's talking about a cloud service. And OpenAI has talked about building its own cloud service. And so ultimately, if you're Microsoft, you're going to compete with OpenAI. So OpenAI can build the servers, which you have for Azure and then put the AI model on top of them. The only way to compete with that is to have your own foundational models. Maybe that's the reason.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Okay, I mean, I still don't buy it, though, but.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 55:31Speaker 01

  I don't know, like.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  If OpenAI Cloud, OpenAI makes OpenAI AI Cloud and you can't answer that, right, then maybe you do want to build your own models.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  That's a big if.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  That is a big if.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  There's a lot of ambition.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  It is actually.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Satya Nadella believes it's a possibility.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Wait, that is actually interesting because it's funny, like, heading into IPO season, like, hot IPO summer with Anthropic, OpenAI and everybody, SpaceX. No one has actually talked about the AI Cloud in terms of OpenAI's potential business model. That was like a passing comment from Sam. Like, do you think Satya really believes that? Or has some information? I don't know, like, the fact that he's even addressing that is kind of shocking to me.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Very interesting. Yeah, so sorry, I had that, I put that in the duck and forgot about it, but that to me is what you might.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  That's the story. That's the story.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  Funny enough, none of the report, I don't, I didn't see any reporters outside and, you know, bring that up and make that connection. I mean, I guess Thompson was the best at getting it out, but still, like, the conversation.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  What does Satya know? What does Satya, I mean, he's got to know something. He's got to know something.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  He has all their IP till 2032, so.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  All right, well, uh, well, folks, forgive my voice this week. I just completely blew it out at the Beer Authority, uh, next to Port Authority on 42nd Street in New York on Wednesday night, watching the Knicks beat the Spurs. And, uh, we're about to head into Friday night and I think I'm going to let what's left, what's left of it go. So maybe it's a good thing I'm not going to be on site at WWDC, I won't be able to speak.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  I, uh, I'm sitting here looking down at Madison Square Garden from the 18th floor of, uh, Penn Plaza and it's, uh, it's, there's a lot of people out there, even though they're not playing here. There's people blue and, uh, orange as far as the eye can see.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  Are you, you're a Celtics fan?

• 57:26Speaker 01

  I am. I'm rooting for the Knicks right now. I'm out of New York sports teams. Like, there's no part of me that could ever come around to the Yankees, Giants, or Jets. But I don't know, the Knicks, especially this team, I mean, you can't hate. And, and, and I'm, I've, they've, I'm not saying I'm bandwagoning fully, but I'm certainly rooting for them. But as a general fan of the NBA, I mean, these are the, I can't root against either of these teams. And it's just good to watch. So I'm enjoying it.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Such a fun story.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:00Speaker 00

  Yes. That's, that's, I don't know about you. That's my weekend. Tonight, yell at the TV for three hours straight. Tomorrow, wake up, get the newspaper and see a whole stack of data center servers on the curb. Sunday, fly to San Francisco, only to not be let into WWDC. I'm excited.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  I think, uh, wait, did you, hold on. I'm just gonna, there was that story that Nvidia is gonna pay people to like build data centers in their house or something.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  I saw that.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Sign us up, Jensen. We're ready. We're ready. Actually, no, Alex is not ready.

• 58:31Speaker 00

  I would, you would find my cold body on the sidewalk in the morning. Put one of those in the backyard that we don't have.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think New York apartment owners are probably last on that list with Nvidia.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  We can pass on the backyard server. All right, Ranjan. Have a great weekend, man.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  See you next week.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  And folks, Ranjan and I are gonna be doing the show live at the Big Technology Summit on June 18th. I think it's probably the last time I'll mention it until you hear some of the episodes because we're gonna post them on the feed. It's gonna be in San Francisco at the Commonwealth Club Summit, bigtechnology.com. We're just about sold out. Thank you to everybody who signed up. It's been pretty overwhelming, the response that we've gotten. And we're gonna have one hell of a day out there in San Francisco. So stoked to be doing that with you, Ranjan.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Excited.

• 59:18Speaker 00

  And yeah, it's gonna be great. And I think we'll leave it there. So thanks, everybody, for listening and watching, and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 59:59Speaker 03

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