Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society What Made You Ugly In Medieval Times? About this episode Beauty fads come and go - remember super low-rise jeans in the 90s? IYKYK.
What was considered cool and beautiful in the medieval period? What skincare routines were medieval people doing? And how did the Black Death affect how people dressed and presented themselves?
In this new mini-series, we'll be exploring the beauty standards - and ideas of ugliness - throughout time periods in history.
In this second episode Kate is joined by historian and author Dr. Eleanor Janega, co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval, to find out why wearing make-up was a crime.
This episode was edited by Tim Arstall. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.
Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.
You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK.
All music from Epidemic Sounds.
Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast.
Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript 9,711 words · 15 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:37 Speaker 01 Standard-sized rugs shouldn't be the standard. Get a custom-sized rug that actually fits with Ernesta. In as little as two weeks, Ernesta cuts, finishes and delivers your rug straight to your door. No more awkward sizing, just a designer-quality rug made to work within your space perfectly the first time. Visit ernesta.com to explore Ernesta's full range of custom-sized rugs and get $50 towards any style when you order five samples for only $10.
1:07 Speaker 02 The Quarter Pounder with Cheese is made with 100% fresh beef, cooked when you order it. Then comes the melted cheese, the slivered onions, the pickles, the ketchup and the mustard. Add hot crispy fries and an ice-cold Coke, all for $8. And if things go well, one loose fry at the bottom of the bag. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese meal, now $8. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.
1:37 Speaker 03 Hi, this is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. Cheers to fall savings at Whole Foods Market, home of the higher ingredient standards. This Halloween, share chocolates and candies made without that spooky high-fructose corn syrup. Throwing a party? Make it easy with a Berry Chantilly cake. Ready-to-cook pizza? No antibiotics ever chicken wings? And sushi made fresh daily? Fall gatherings never tasted better. Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market.
2:14 Kate Lister? Hello my lovely Betwixters, it's me Kate Lister and you are listening to Betwixt the Sheets and I'm so glad that you are. But before we can continue together, I have to protect you from me, quite frankly, and my guest this time, absolutely, there's no doubt about that. And we do that by giving you the fair dues warning. So here it is. This is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. Oh, well, I feel safer. Do you feel safer? Let's do it.
2:45 Kate Lister? Village life as a medieval peasant wasn't all bad, you know. I mean, as long as you don't mind a steady stream of root vegetables in your diet and living in the same room as your livestock and, well, I can't get this mud out of my hair for love nor money. But if you can put that to one side, there are some very pretty things to be found. There are lots of theories out there about how life looked and smelled during the medieval period and most of it tells us it looked and smelt grim. Let's be completely honest. These visual stereotypes present us with quite a hard world and a filthy one at that. So, how did medieval people maintain beauty standards? And what did they have to do to be considered ugly?
3:31 Speaker 04 What do you require, madam?
3:32 Speaker 05 Oh, money, of course.
3:34 Speaker 06 You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
3:36 Speaker 05 I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button.
3:48 Speaker 04 Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
3:51 Speaker 07 Goodness, I feel for them. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.
4:00 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Welcome to the latest episode in our mini-series on historical beauty standards and today we are getting medieval. They have a lot of things in common with the ancient Romans, they all loved a pale face, but they do have some very interesting quirks all of their own, such as Christianity, which really takes off in the medieval period and had notions of beauty linked to original sin. Turns out, all that sinning can have a pretty damning effect on a girl's beauty regime. How did they navigate this complete minefield? How were people of colour viewed in the medieval period?
4:43 Kate Lister? And what would a good skincare routine look like back then? Joining us today is the completely beautiful and brilliant author and historian Eleanor Janiger, co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval, and we love her very much. Tweezers are ready, everybody, let's do this.
5:04 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's Eleanor Janiger, how are you doing?
5:10 Speaker 08 I'm very well, Kate, I live here now.
5:12 Kate Lister? This is my house.
5:13 Speaker 08 Yeah.
5:14 Kate Lister? That's not true.
5:16 Speaker 08 Well, you know, it's about to be mine.
5:18 Kate Lister? It's, well, yeah, we can just live here now. This, this is the Betwixt the Sheets slash medievally speaking crossover pad. Thank you for dropping by, though. We are here to talk about medieval beauty standards.
5:31 Speaker 08 Oh, there's a one.
5:35 Speaker 08 I think it's kind of annoying, though, when you talk about medieval beauty standards is it's kind of like,
5:39 Kate Lister? yes.
5:40 Speaker 08 All right, I'm going to talk about medieval things because you can't stop me.
5:43 Kate Lister? Yep.
5:43 Speaker 08 No, can't stop, won't stop.
5:44 Kate Lister? Nope.
5:45 Speaker 08 But fundamentally, these standards within Europe, and you know, more particularly kind of in the Mediterranean, literal, are pretty much ossified for a really long time. So, you know, yeah, I could be talking about, I don't know, France in the 1300s, but it's also kind of true of like Morocco in like the 10th century, you know?
6:06 Kate Lister? There are some consistent things, what I'm learning, I've, I've been done this little mini-series and doing little time-travelling trips to different places, is there are some constants that like wherever you go, that was an attractive thing. Clear skin, I have yet to find anybody going, actually, we kind of want you to fuck it up a bit. That, that doesn't happen.
6:27 Speaker 08 No.
6:28 Kate Lister? Um, healthy, that's like a really big one with maybe a few detours. Remember heroin chic in the 90s?
6:34 Speaker 08 Oh, yeah.
6:35 Kate Lister? Remember that one?
6:36 Speaker 08 Well, it's back, baby, because the 90s are back, so.
6:39 Kate Lister? No, keep it away.
6:40 Speaker 08 Oh.
6:41 Kate Lister? No, I want my high-waisted jeans.
6:45 Kate Lister? But I was also thinking, like, not only there are some constants of, like, healthy, young, that's another one. Again, I have yet to find anyone that thinks as you get older and older, you get more attractive. That doesn't happen. But even if we just think about our lifetimes, how much beauty trends come and go, like in the nineties, right? And I was thinking, because I know it's going to come and torture, and I was making a mental list of beauty fads that have come and gone in our lifetime. Number one, concealer lips.
7:14 Speaker 08 Oh, god.
7:14 Kate Lister? Remember them.
7:15 Speaker 08 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. And then with, like, the dark liner around.
7:19 Kate Lister? Yes.
7:20 Speaker 08 That showgirl's liner, girl, that showgirl's liner.
7:22 Kate Lister? Um, super low-rise jeans.
7:25 Speaker 08 Girl, what a horrible time to live through my twenties.
7:28 Kate Lister? You had to shave to put those on.
7:30 Speaker 08 It was just, you know, I've emerged into the world, this is what, and they were like, put these on. Oh, by the way, your fly is like two inches long. I mean, it's just like, it was kind of like a notion at that point.
7:41 Kate Lister? And the thong hanging out the back. So we don't do any, and like, the height of sophistication on the red carpet was jeans and a nice top.
7:48 Speaker 08 Okay, do you remember, though, at the same time, uh, the jeans under the dress thing?
7:51 Kate Lister? Oh, my god, yes.
7:53 Speaker 08 Hideous.
7:53 Kate Lister? Oh, no.
7:54 Speaker 08 Sat, oh, yeah.
7:55 Kate Lister? But like, we could do this for a while. But my point is, is that look how much these things come and go in, within a few years. So even though things are constant when it comes to beauty standards, there must have been things coming in and things going out. Because the medieval period, as I've learned from you, is a thousand years of history.
8:13 Speaker 08 Mm-hmm, absolutely. And so there are things that we, we don't necessarily know about what's going on at certain periods of time. So like, the early Middle Ages, when we have fewer sources for them, because fifteen hundred years is a really long time ago, you know, and it's hard, it's hard to get sources for that. And also culturally, they just kind of don't write things down, uh, in terms of what descriptions are. So we don't know that much about what's going on in, say, the year six fifty, because no one was like, hey, she is really hot and she looks like this. The thing that they'll do is they'll write down that someone is really beautiful.
8:52 Kate Lister? Yeah.
8:53 Speaker 08 And, and you're like, helpful, thanks, you know, and, and, and that isn't really expanded upon. And this is super common, though, because even if you go back to, for example, the ancient Greeks, and they're like, Helen of Troy, you're like, oh, yeah, okay, the most beautiful woman on earth, and they're like, she's blonde.
9:10 Kate Lister? And that's it.
9:11 Speaker 08 And they're like, anything else, they're like, absolutely not. That's just, that's, that's all it takes, baby. And then, you know, even within that, when you're looking at a classical women that are portrayed as beautiful, you know, again, like from things like the Trojan Wars, you'll have like Polysena, and they'll be like, oh yeah, she's not, not too tall.
9:32 Kate Lister? And that's, yeah.
9:33 Speaker 08 Yeah, and like.
9:34 Kate Lister? It's not giving you much to work with, is it?
9:35 Speaker 08 There's absolutely nothing. So, you know, this isn't a particularly medieval thing. And so, you know, even when we are looking at ancient standards of beauty, we gotta go look at like statues. Right? You know, you, what you need to go find like Aphrodite bathing and things like that. And, you know, these are, these are pretty uniform and, you know, medieval people saw those statues, right? Those are, those are things that they saw with their eyes because it wasn't like they were underground or something. So, you know, that, that must have persisted in some places, but what we definitely know about early medieval beauty standards is they're like, to be beautiful is kind of like to be righteous.
10:12 Kate Lister? I'm sensing that as developing as a theme, you know, this sort of pretty privilege, but on a, on an epic scale of like, if you're beautiful, then you're just a good person.
10:23 Speaker 08 Mm hmm, mm hmm. And it's like, these are the things you have all this time, like where this is a legitimate cause for philosophical debate. So people are like, why is it that the chick I really wanna bang uh is also so holy and good? And, and they're like, well, it's because, it's because
10:43 Speaker 08 God created the world, right? God created nature. And, you know, God created the Garden of Eden. He created everything that exists. And when we were still in the Garden of Eden, you know, we were, we were close by God. We were just like, woo, in his image, right? And, you know, then things went south.
11:00 Speaker 08 Eva ate the pomegranate or the apple or whatever it is you want it to be. We got kicked out, bada bing bada boom. But naturally, things are close to God because God made the physical world. So therefore, things that naturally are beautiful are close to God. And then that's how you kind of get spiritual perfection.
11:22 Kate Lister? That is some mental gymnastics, isn't it? That is a hell of a way of saying we always think that the people we wanna shag are amazing.
11:30 Speaker 08 And they are.
11:31 Kate Lister? For a bit.
11:32 Speaker 08 I've never, ever wanted to shag some man who was terrible. No.
11:37 Kate Lister? That you learn that later.
11:38 Speaker 08 Yeah, put that on record. Always right.
11:42 Kate Lister? Right? That's what happens later and you realize, damn it, the pretty man did it again.
11:48 Speaker 08 Curses.
11:49 Kate Lister? The medieval people now, this is, this is thrown a bit of a conundrum my way because what I know from you and your work is that they didn't like pretty women.
11:58 Speaker 08 Okay, look, so you can be more than one thing.
12:01 Kate Lister? Okay.
12:02 Speaker 08 You can be massively horny and also angry about it. Like since time in a memorial, men have been mad that chicks are pretty.
12:09 Kate Lister? There we go.
12:09 Speaker 08 Right?
12:10 Kate Lister? Okay.
12:10 Speaker 08 And then it goes back to Eve in like these theological conceptions because like one of the things about Eve and pictures that you see of Eve, absolute stone cold baddie. Right? Like just a dime piece, like always, always upholding the beauty standards of the time because of course she does because she's in the Garden of Eden.
12:29 Kate Lister? And they have makeup counters.
12:30 Speaker 08 Yes. Just picking the lip gloss off of the trees. Um, so it's, uh, but it is like one of these things where of course she's a spiritual perfection at the time. And then also this is, you know, the opportunity that you have to paint a hot naked chick. So like, let, let us not.
12:48 Kate Lister? Yeah.
12:49 Speaker 08 You know, forget that, that there are, there are ways to just kind of like have some fun with this, right? So she is always going to be portrayed as like really, really beautiful, but she's also the vector for which sin came into the world.
13:02 Kate Lister? Yeah.
13:03 Speaker 08 You know, she's also the reason why we have death. She's, you know, she's the cause of original sins. So very particularly a hot chick did all this.
13:13 Kate Lister? Yeah. You wouldn't have had a five doing this, would you?
13:17 Speaker 08 No, absolutely no mids. It's just like, this is, this is hot chick behavior.
13:21 Kate Lister? This is, this is hot chick.
13:23 Speaker 08 Yeah, like, you know, the, you know, all her friends are like, honestly, girl, work, you know, like, ooh, she's so dramatic. She is the drama, et cetera. But I mean, fundamentally, this also is linked to the fact that.
13:37 Speaker 08 The beauty then becomes sexual.
13:39 Kate Lister? Yeah.
13:40 Speaker 08 Because part of the fall of man isn't just that Adam and Eve realize they're naked, right? It's that they realize they're naked and they're turned on by it.
13:48 Kate Lister? Okay.
13:49 Speaker 08 So because, you know, like they just didn't know to be turned on before. So like this being attracted, that's kind of like the next step. That's, that's the issue, right?
14:00 Kate Lister? And you get this weird cognitive distance that arrives. It's not just in the medieval period that you see this is that they want women to be beautiful, but not aware that they're beautiful because then that's bad. They want them to be sexually attractive, but not too much. And they can't flaunt that at any point. Uh, they need to be unbelievably beautiful, but also innocent. What we would now call the no makeup makeup.
14:24 Speaker 08 Mm hmm.
14:25 Kate Lister? Look, just completely natural, like long tresses of blonde hair, not made up. I think a really good example of that is in the Canterbury Tales.
14:35 Speaker 08 Mm hmm.
14:36 Kate Lister? When you've got, so you've got the Miller's Tale and he describes this eighteen year old girl called Alison.
14:41 Speaker 08 They're all Alison.
14:42 Kate Lister? They're all, there's so many Alison to know. It's like, trust them, pick another name. Um, and she is kinda slutty and she's like really heavily made up. And he really goes to town describing her like, like slow eyebrows and like her hair's pulled back. And she's got like, like loads of pleats on her and stuff. And then, and then there's the knight's tale where another girl is described. And she is described as like also very beautiful, but it's a very different type.
15:10 Speaker 08 Hmm.
15:10 Kate Lister? Of beauty. It's not made up. It's just like not like doves and bluebirds follow her around singing songs. And she's, she literally skips through gardens singing, doesn't she?
15:21 Speaker 08 Yeah. And I mean, this is what medieval people would tell you is true beauty.
15:24 Kate Lister? Okay.
15:25 Speaker 08 So it is a hundred percent that you're just supposed to be beautiful. Just be beautiful. Just be, there is an ossified beauty archetype.
15:33 Kate Lister? Yeah.
15:33 Speaker 08 And by the way, if you don't live up to this, we think you're sinful and evil. But I swear to God, girl, if you pluck your eyebrows.
15:41 Kate Lister? Trouble. No, then you're a bad woman.
15:43 Speaker 08 Which also I think it's really funny because medieval people are constantly talking about like chicks. Eyebrows and how hot their eyebrows are. And I remember it did like a few years ago. Do you remember when there was like the really like
15:53 Kate Lister? Really heavy brows.
15:54 Speaker 08 And there would be videos from men being like, no man has ever been attracted to eyebrows. I'm like, baby, actually, we got a hundred years of history where men are like, oh, you see the eyebrows on that one.
16:05 Kate Lister? Eyebrow trends do come and go.
16:07 Speaker 08 Oh, yeah, yeah.
16:08 Kate Lister? And definitely Alison in The Miller's Tale, she get her eyebrows get a mention.
16:12 Speaker 08 Mm hmm. And so eyebrows become this particular sight of worry for men, obviously. Because they're like, I go, I hope that her arch, they have to be arched and hopefully black. Right. You're supposed to be blonde with black eyebrows, you know, that thing.
16:29 Kate Lister? That that happens.
16:30 Speaker 08 That thing that exists without makeup.
16:31 Kate Lister? Right.
16:32 Speaker 08 Um, yeah, absolutely. And so this, there's a particular story about this where there's a guy who he's very in love with his wife. Uh, and she was so beautiful and like wonderful, but she dies, you know, in the way that people do. So he pays this monk who can have ecstatic visions to like, go check in on his wife in the afterlife and tell him how he's doing. So Monk takes the money, has ecstatic vision and comes back. He's like, yeah, your wife is in hell. And your wife is in hell and demons are gnawing at her eyebrows and at her hairline. Because you thought she was beautiful, but actually she plucked her eyebrows and her hairline.
17:12 Speaker 08 And so now the her ironic punishment in the afterlife is that demons gnaw the places that she used to pluck. And it's like, so, but your wife kind of sucked, actually, I think you'll find it. But it's like, not only is there this real pressure to have these specific eyebrows, but if you do anything about it, you're going to hell. And it's because makeup or any kind of intervention.
17:38 Speaker 08 Is seen as a form of trickery.
17:41 Kate Lister? Right.
17:42 Speaker 08 Like to the point where there are laws on the books, like here in London, where if you find out that a sex worker that you frequented was using makeup, that's fraud and you can go ask for your money back.
17:51 Kate Lister? Wow.
17:52 Speaker 08 I mean, granted, you're gonna be laughed out of the stews, but.
17:54 Kate Lister? Holy hell, yes, yeah. You, uh, did anyone ever enforce that?
17:59 Speaker 08 I mean, good luck, right? You know, but, but it's on the books, right? So like in, in theory, that's in there. And so the idea is like, well, this is false advertising. You're not really beautiful because to.
18:09 Kate Lister? So would you want me to come home and meet your mother? Jesus, like, what do you mean? Like, it's, you're paying for a quick shag up against the wall.
18:14 Speaker 08 I know. And it's just like, oh my God, like, I'm, I'm sorry. Like, were you writing love poetry to this woman? She does not care. Right? Like, this is a businesswoman. Thank you very much. But it's, it's wild.
18:24 Kate Lister? And you're no six foot two either, partner.
18:25 Speaker 08 I know. Hmm. I mean, like, and to the point where, you know, when you have poor Alison in The Miller's Tale, they're like, and she thinks she's really hot. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, you're still kind of like literarily wanking over her.
18:36 Kate Lister? Like, really quite intensely as well.
18:38 Speaker 08 Yeah. And so it's, it's sort of like you are making her into a figure of fun, but you still think she's hot.
18:44 Kate Lister? Yes.
18:44 Speaker 08 But she's the wrong kind of hot.
18:45 Kate Lister? But don't we do that today? That's still, still a bind that, that women are in today. Point in case, Kardashians.
18:52 Speaker 08 Hmm.
18:52 Kate Lister? I love to return to them again and again.
18:54 Speaker 08 Always.
18:54 Kate Lister? But they occupy that same space of like, they're judged for how they look, but they also influence how people look. We also hate them for what they do and how they're made up and artificial, but they're also adored for it and they make them. And it becomes really weird and complex. And it's that same artifice that people in the medieval period got angry about.
19:14 Speaker 08 Oh yeah, absolutely. Where the, the trouble here is that these people are aware.
19:20 Kate Lister? Yeah.
19:20 Speaker 08 And that, and that's a big part of it. As you mentioned, it's like, you're not supposed, you know, to, to quote One Direction. You don't know you're beautiful, right? Like, that's the thing that you're supposed to be doing is that you're just supposed to meet this standard and also be blithely unaware of.
19:34 Kate Lister? Yeah.
19:35 Speaker 08 All of society.
19:36 Kate Lister? Am I really beautiful?
19:38 Speaker 08 Oh, wow. I didn't, I didn't notice that I looked like every single statue in the church.
19:42 Kate Lister? Right.
19:43 Speaker 08 Like every painting I've ever seen. And also no one's ever mentioned this to me, like in a society completely obsessed with the way that women look.
19:51 Kate Lister? And if you can be unsexual as well, that's a help. Just going back against the counter, because Emily. A really beautiful one with the bluebirds tweeted. Uh, she wanted to be a virgin all her life. She wanted to be a priestess of someone or other, some virgin goddess. So like the idea as well that you're, you're not even supposed to be sexual. You're just this.
20:09 Speaker 08 Hmm.
20:09 Kate Lister? Beautiful Disney princess wandering around.
20:12 Speaker 08 Well, like we see this, for example, um, in the pearl poem as well. So, you know, in the pearl poem, the like little girl dies and she's like two. And then her dad sees her in heaven and she's like a sixteen year old hottie.
20:24 Kate Lister? Uncomfortable.
20:25 Speaker 08 Yeah. And it's, and he's like, oh, isn't it great that she's so hot? And it's because, you know, she's kept the spiritual perfection. Because she was a virgin and she died and da, da, da, and she never did anything wrong. And so there's this idea that our souls, when they go to heaven. And indeed, like when we rise from the grave on judgment day, our bodies are going to be at the height of their powers. Like we're going to be. We're going to be as good as we are. And so hilariously for women, this is like, yeah, sixteen, like, you know, you're supposed to be a maiden. Which means like you've achieved sexual maturity, but you haven't had sex yet.
20:55 Kate Lister? Right.
20:56 Speaker 08 And for men, it's middle age.
20:58 Kate Lister? Oh, for fuck's sake.
20:59 Speaker 08 I know, right? So like, go look at, go look at any, uh, you know, picture of the last judgment and everyone, all the little naked souls getting up out of their graves. It's a bunch of baddies and then like middle aged dudes.
21:10 Kate Lister? Do you wanna be sixteen again? What an awful idea that is.
21:12 Speaker 08 Oh my God. It's like, have you ever spoken to a sixteen year old girl also?
21:16 Kate Lister? Never want to go through that nonsense again.
21:18 Speaker 08 You know, like it is horrifying times.
21:21 Kate Lister? That is not judgment day shit. Let me be sixteen in my swamp witch era.
21:26 Speaker 08 I mean, look, let me tell you also, like, as you know, a noted elder millennial, we definitely lived through that with like Britney Spears. For example, where it was like, look at her and then they would like parade her around and be like, say you're a virgin, say it, do it. It's like while they're like, and also take all your clothes off and please gyrate, you know, and, and, and it was like a really weird time to be alive. Where you're just like, huh, this thing of kind of simultaneously commodifying women who haven't had sex yet. Um, but sexualizing them. So it's like, they can't be sexual, but you're going to be sexual at them. And so.
22:01 Kate Lister? You're gonna creep all over them.
22:02 Speaker 08 Yeah, exactly. And then like every woman who like notices that this is happening, it's like your fault for noticing. You're just supposed to be blithely unaware.
22:10 Kate Lister? So this is a kind of why they have this link of if you're beautiful, you must be spiritually pure somehow. Because the ideal beauty is somehow unaware and innocent. What the fuck happens when you get older? You're only sixteen for one year. That's all you get at being sixteen. You've got a long way to go after that.
22:31 Speaker 08 Well, luckily you'll be a mommy soon. And then all your worries are over.
22:36 Kate Lister? And then you don't need to be attracted.
22:37 Speaker 08 That you don't need to be attracted because now you're a mommy.
22:39 Kate Lister? Ooh.
22:39 Speaker 08 It's not your mommy. And like, and this is, although, you know, obviously there are cases where this doesn't happen. So, you know, very famously Eleanor of Aquitaine is incredibly hot. And everyone is like stupid sexy Eleanor of Aquitaine. Like, and they're so angry about it. Because like she's like really, really hot and doesn't behave like they want her to behave. And you know, there's constantly rumors swirling as a result. They're like, oh, she's shagging her uncle. You know, she's dead and two hundred years later, they're like, she was shagging Saladin. It's like, homie, how? Literally, how did that happen? You know, and, and like, these are things that even the Victorians are repeating later. So there are women who continue to meet the beauty standard later. And when they enter the record, people are furious.
23:24 Speaker 08 They're like, no, you're not supposed to be doing that anymore because you're supposed to kind of like transcend. You're supposed to get into motherhood and then this is going to be like a moot point. And, you know, then people will say you were an excellent wife, you were an excellent mother. But still, having said that, it's like medieval literary tradition is absolutely full of people's really hot wives. Who are like cuckolding them or not.
23:46 Kate Lister? Wife of Bath?
23:46 Speaker 08 Wife of Bath.
23:47 Kate Lister? Is she hot? I'm just, she has a very detailed description. She's another Alison.
23:52 Speaker 08 Yeah.
23:52 Kate Lister? She's forty, all of forty years old. And, oh my god, oh my god.
23:59 Speaker 08 Uh, couldn't you imagine?
24:00 Kate Lister? And she, um, she's got a gap between her teeth. I remember that.
24:03 Speaker 08 Yeah.
24:04 Kate Lister? She is slightly red in the face.
24:06 Speaker 08 Mm hmm. Which is good.
24:07 Kate Lister? Which is, that, that's good?
24:08 Speaker 08 So, so what you want is you want white skin, but rosy cheeks. And oftentimes in literary sources, it's referred to as a complexion of snow and roses.
24:19 Kate Lister? Oh, wow.
24:19 Speaker 08 Which is very.
24:20 Kate Lister? Okay, okay.
24:21 Speaker 08 Yeah.
24:22 Kate Lister? So she's got that the gap tooth, I remember that, that she's got a gap between her teeth. I can't remember what her eyebrows were like. Is she a sexy figure? She talks about sex all the time.
24:32 Speaker 08 It's really difficult to say because she's sexualized.
24:35 Kate Lister? Yeah.
24:36 Speaker 08 Certainly, and I think that it's very difficult to not then kind of like put her in sexy situations as a result. But she's kind of representing people's worry about widows, more particularly even though, you know, she's a wife at this per- this point in her life. But this idea that, you know, older women are sexually aware of what they want, their experience, and they have money.
24:57 Kate Lister? Right.
24:57 Speaker 08 So they can kind of pick and choose what they want to do. They can marry men for whatever reason they wish to. Or not, you know, so they then you get into this kind of like limbo where there's this specific worry about widows. Where it's like, oh, these widows are out here being hot and, you know, like they they are out of control. You know, they don't have fathers to shove them in one way or another, or brothers, you know, like maybe your sons can be like, mom, knock it off. But, you know, they're they're just gonna do what they do. So there is also this kind of like moral gray area that they fall into.
25:32 Kate Lister? Okay, all right, that's that's interesting, but not they're not regarded as beautiful in the same way as.
25:38 Speaker 08 No, I mean, because it like to be young is to be beautiful within a lot of these things. I mean, if you look at the Decameron, for example, there's just endless stories of cuckolding. It's just like, that's that's all there is. And, you know, also stories of like a really beautiful women who are kind of younger. So, you know, for example, you got the story of it's the it's the king of Babylon, which is Egypt. To like, do not look, I can't explain it to you. And she's really hot and is supposed to get married off to the king of the Algarve. And gets set on a boat and like the boat shipwrecks. And then there's like a series of stories where every man who comes into contact with her is like, oh, like, you know, they they don't talk on the floor.
26:20 Speaker 08 It it becomes a cartoon world. And they like are all killing each other and kidnapping her. And then like the minute you show her a dick, she's like, oh, well. Well, I guess this is fine. You know, and it's like, it's absolutely incredible. Right. And so she kind of gets past like from hand to hand through like, I think, eight different dudes.
26:38 Kate Lister? Wow.
26:39 Speaker 08 Um, and then like eventually finds her way home to her father and makes up this great story about how she was, uh, uh, actually, uh, the whole time, like, do not worry, Dad, virginity intact, because I was hanging out at the nunnery of Saint Crescent in the hole.
26:55 Kate Lister? Of course you were.
26:56 Speaker 08 Yeah. Uh, great, great little euphemism there. Um, and you know, like, we are Muslim, but you know, these Christians safeguarded me in any way I can marry the prince of the Algarve. And he's like, you sure can. And this is a story of a woman who's kind of like in her teens to twenties. And they're like, she maintains her beauty and her sexuality all throughout these subsequent changes of sexual partners. And to the point where she's like married off with all honors in the end. And it's kind of like a happily ever after. So what we learn is that there are these sort of conceits where it's like, oh, you're supposed to be holy in order to be beautiful. You've got to be a 16 year old. You need to be a virgin in theory. In practice, if we're seeing what people actually do and what's going on with their lives, there's a lot more room for interpretation about
27:40 Speaker 08 where beauty lies and whether or not, you know, sexual women are indeed sexy. Uh, because in this case, yes, absolutely.
27:52 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.
28:05 Kate Lister? Autumn is underway at last, which means the nights are closing in and everything in nature feels like it's just slowing down, except us, of course. For most of us, me included, the world still has a lot of demands on us that can feel like a lot to deal with. There will be a time in all of our lives when we could use therapy. But often, when you try to do that, it's still way harder than it should be. Finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance? That's where most online therapy platforms fall short. Many don't work with insurance at all, which means you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription.
28:49 Kate Lister? Rula does things differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, making the average co-pay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com/sheets to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com forward slash S-H-E-E-T-S, sheets. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
29:28 Speaker 02 The Quarter Pounder with Cheese is made with 100% fresh beef, cooked when you order it. Add hot crispy fries and an ice cold Coke, and hopefully, a lot of napkins. All for $8. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.
29:42 Speaker 09 Get under a blanket and get comfy. This message is sponsored by ADT. It's back to school, back to work, back to cozy nights at home season, and ADT is here for every moment of it. They handle your home security so you can focus on spending time with the people who matter. They make it easy with professionally-installed systems you can access right from the ADT Plus app. If you need help, their reps are on-call 24/7 at the most company-operated monitoring centers in the industry. You deserve some cozy back-to-home time. ADT will keep an eye out. When every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com today.
30:22 Speaker 10 This message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University. Set a course for change. Now is the time to make a real change in your life, career, and community. At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W. Walden's online programs are designed for working professionals like you. You'll gain hands-on skills to take on real-world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting, and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Take the first step to make your impact. Visit waldenu.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV.
31:11 Kate Lister? I feel like we should finish up by talking about men being attractive. Because this conversation always focuses on women because they're the ones that have had the pressure put on them to look a certain way. But men feel the pressure too. What was a medieval male hottie?
31:27 Speaker 08 Oh, well, so the medieval male hottie, as a general rule of thumb, a little bit muscular, but a little bit of meat on the bones. You know, they go for, they go for like, ooh, there's food in the house.
31:39 Kate Lister? Yeah.
31:39 Speaker 08 Right? You know, like that's hot. So if you've got like a little bit of a belly, that like, that's, that's no problem. Do not worry about that. And there is like a lot of like men kind of like exercising to exercise and like, you know, to maintain their figure. So it's like quite cute, like there is, do you even lift, bro? In the medieval period, but they're just like picking up big rocks. Like, it's a lot more like a strong man competition. It's very amazing. So there'll be like exercise regimens and things like that. And the other big one is like being clean.
32:07 Kate Lister? Clean, that's a constant.
32:08 Speaker 08 Yeah, everybody likes it when you're clean. So there's like rather a lot of that. You got to like comb your hair, brush your teeth.
32:13 Kate Lister? Yeah.
32:14 Speaker 08 All of those things.
32:14 Kate Lister? Don't stink.
32:15 Speaker 08 Yeah, exactly. So that, you know, there's rather a lot of that. And then dress is a big one.
32:19 Kate Lister? Yeah.
32:20 Speaker 08 So one big difference, I think, between now and with medieval men is medieval men be showing it off, right? Like, it becomes a huge issue in the 14th century when the Black Death is going on. Because a lot of men are like, look, if I'm gonna die tomorrow. I'm wearing hose, right? And they're like, they got it out, like, they're like, wearing super, super pointy shoes. And the bishops in England are furious and they're writing about this. They're like, God, it's punishing us with the Black Death because these men are wearing tights. And, and like, everything that we see has them like, wearing tights. And then, but then there's kind of like this, these equivalent of women shouldn't wear makeup is you shouldn't go too crazy on the clothes.
33:01 Kate Lister? Okay.
33:01 Speaker 08 So like, if your tights are party colored, so like, they are green and purple or something like that. I mean, well, probably not purple. Only kings can wear purple. But I don't know, green and red, right? Like, that is like, really pushing the button. That's too much. And it's like, everyone agrees it's sexy, but it's like, gauche.
33:18 Kate Lister? I've noticed that there's a lot of discussion around men's legs. That's
33:22 Speaker 08 Oh, yeah.
33:23 Kate Lister? That's one of the things. You don't say that as much. It'd be a bit weird if you did say that. Nice legs on a guy. Like, it wouldn't be like, you know, institutionable behavior. But like, you just don't say that about them today.
33:34 Speaker 08 I mean, people would go, I mean, I suppose. But like, yeah, like, medieval men do not skip leg day.
33:39 Kate Lister? No, they, big thing about legs.
33:40 Speaker 08 Yeah. And because they're wearing tights and things, right? And so it's, it's one of these things that's interesting with clothes theory, where it's kind of like, chicken or the egg situation is like, dude, we find legs sexy and so men were wearing tights. Or were men, you know, like, did the finding men's legs sexy come out of the wearing tights thing?
34:00 Kate Lister? Yeah.
34:00 Speaker 08 So, and I mean, then, especially in the later medieval period and into the early modern period, could throw a codpiece on that.
34:06 Kate Lister? Yes. Yeah, that was a weird
34:08 Speaker 08 Uh huh.
34:09 Kate Lister? moment in fashion history, that one.
34:11 Speaker 08 You know?
34:12 Kate Lister? Remember the first time I saw a codpiece? I thought it would just be like, like a cup that, you know, rugby players wear. It's just full on penis. You can hang things off that.
34:20 Speaker 08 Absolutely. And, you know, it goes to show that medieval people and early modern people are a lot less prudish than we are. They're just like, I know you're looking at it, so I'm gonna make it look like that. That's that's what's going on, you know, and so there are a lot, a lot more comfort around the genital area. But then there are kind of, I guess, some surprising things that medieval people do, like, uh, bald men are kind of sexy.
34:41 Kate Lister? Really?
34:41 Speaker 08 For example, it's because they're very manly, they're very masculine. The idea is they are so hot and dry, which makes them very masculine, that their hair is burnt off. So it's like a humorily, there's kind of like nothing wrong with being bald, like unless you're bald because you're old. Like it's like, it's like a young bald guy thing. It's like, you know, if you've got the
35:01 Kate Lister? Like a Jason Statham.
35:03 Speaker 08 Jason Statham. Call me.
35:05 Kate Lister? If you want to sponsor this
35:06 Speaker 08 It's fine. It'll be fine. Um, so, you know, like this, this is a thing that universally is kind of like agreed is pretty hot, but it's interestingly like scientific. You know, now when like weirdo evoc psychologists will be like, well, we've always found exactly the same thing attractive about women, which is hour glasses. And I'm like, no, dude, like absolutely not. No, it was hair shapes for Europeans. Anyway, like they were like, well, scientifically bald men are hot because uh, the humors. And it means basically exactly the same thing as evoc psychologists going off on one now. So, you know, like you can treat it with as much respect, right?
35:43 Kate Lister? So if you're a medieval person and you wanna, you want a decent skincare routine, very important, still important to everybody today, cleanse, tone, moisturize, but you didn't have that so much if you're in a medieval person, what would be your go-to routine?
35:59 Speaker 08 Well, we actually have recipes and routines that are left to us from a couple of different sources. One of which is our girl Hildegard von Bingen.
36:07 Kate Lister? I like her.
36:08 Speaker 08 She was a skincare girlie.
36:10 Kate Lister? I love that.
36:11 Speaker 08 Yeah, like she leaves us like toner recipes. She's like, girl, this is how you make barley water, which uh, to me was always kind of just like a Mary Poppins, the musical reference. But it's like a toner thing. So you know, in the way where we'll use kind of like colloidal oatmeal now, like in order to like moisturize. So you can do the same thing with barley. So she would be like, this is what you do, girl. Take the barley, boil it up, put the water on your skin, it'll soften it and it will, you know, and, and this is something that's really available uh, to most women.
36:37 Kate Lister? I've seen barley skincare scrubs and things available in shops.
36:41 Speaker 08 Yeah, exactly. So that a hundred percent existed at the time. We also have like, if you have a little bit more money, a lot more skincare recipes that survived to us in the trotula. And so this is kind of like, you know, it starts out as an OBGYN manual and then people are like, and also.
36:57 Speaker 08 Makeup tips. You know, so this has lots and lots of different recipes for all sorts of things. Um, how to treat sunburn, um, good moisturizers to use after you're out in the sun, um, softer cleansers for your face, because there is kind of some acknowledgement of the fact that your skin might get a little bit rough if you're just using sort of like the soap that you're using on the rest of your body. So they will be like, oh, you know, add rose petals, add honey. There's rather a lot of adding honey to things in order to put it on your skin. There's also more extreme things. So for example, there's rather a lot of stuff that is like, want to bleach your skin? Bleach your skin tonight, queen? Bleaching your skin?
37:35 Kate Lister? No.
37:36 Speaker 08 And it's like a big concern for medieval women, because especially like within the Mediterranean and European context, eh, pale skin is a really big beauty standard.
37:48 Kate Lister? They love pale skin. Everyone seems to have been absolutely nuts for that until like the nineteen fifties.
37:53 Speaker 08 Oh, yeah, absolutely. And essentially what it boils down to is that is a preference for rich ladies.
37:59 Kate Lister? Yeah.
37:59 Speaker 08 Right? Because like if you're a peasant and you're out working in the field all the time, your skin's gonna get messed up because they don't have SPF, right? And they know the sun will burn you and they're like, mm, or whatever. So being tan is a sign that you were like some poor peasant.
38:12 Kate Lister? Right.
38:13 Speaker 08 Who works outside, right? Whereas being very, very pale is a sign that you got the kind of money where you don't have a job outside.
38:18 Kate Lister? Yeah.
38:18 Speaker 08 Right? So that's very attractive. And that's across the board. Like, you know, you see that as much in Arabic poetry about beautiful women as you do French poetry about the same thing. So that as a result creates a demand in skincare routines for skin whitening products, um, some of which look pretty horrible. Like you'll see examples in the trachular where they're like, yeah, put some quick lime in there, girl. And I'm like, do not put quick lime on your face.
38:44 Kate Lister? No.
38:44 Speaker 08 Right? So, but it does kind of show us how there are some things that would absolutely work in terms of skincare. And then there are some where it's just like, you are so off piece right now. But it's to try to live up to this really difficult standard where, you know, most people are outside all the time and they want to be pale.
39:02 Kate Lister? I think that this could be one of the periods in history where actually to be skint means that you'd probably have the better. Beauty products because you couldn't afford
39:11 Speaker 08 Yeah.
39:11 Kate Lister? Lye or whatever the hell it was that you had to put on your face. You'd probably be better off with some barley and something you found in a bush.
39:17 Speaker 08 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're bang on there where that stuff is kind of universally available. It's going to be more about like whether or not you've got the time to do it because like they're not the ones who are attempting to make blonde hair dye.
39:29 Kate Lister? Yeah.
39:30 Speaker 08 Right? You know, which, you know, exists absolutely. Like they've figured out ways to bleach your hair and that kind of a thing. Uh, but you know, it's rough.
39:37 Kate Lister? What about smelling good? Cause one of the persistent myths about folk from the Middle Ages, as you are well aware, is that they were all dirty and that they all stunk and no one had any teeth.
39:48 Speaker 08 Yeah, well, uh, no. So hundred percent actually. Teeth is one of the big ones where medieval people probably had better teeth than we do now.
39:56 Kate Lister? About teeth a lot.
39:57 Speaker 08 Yeah, they do. And it's like, one of the things we have to keep in mind is that they don't really have access to sugar.
40:03 Kate Lister? Yeah.
40:03 Speaker 08 In the way that we do now. So most of our sugar is now coming from like sugarcane and stuff like that. And it certainly existed in medieval Europe, but it's coming to you in much smaller amounts. And it comes from very far away and it's mad expensive. So you're just not eating sugar in every single thing in the way that we are now, which is the stuff that makes your teeth go wild, right? And they brush their teeth. Uh, so they've got toothbrushes or they'll use kind of like little like licorice roots, things like that in order to like brush the stuff. And to be fair, toothpaste didn't work until the 1950s, until we invented fluoride. Whatever you were brushing your teeth with, it's like, well, I hope you're having fun. Like it makes your breath smell nice, but that's all it does.
40:46 Speaker 08 So honestly, if you compared the teeth of a medieval person with a person in the 1930s, probably the person in the medieval period is going to have better teeth because they have fewer things that are going to mess their teeth up.
41:03 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Eleanor after a short break.
41:20 Speaker 11 At Lowe's, this Veterans Day and every day, military members, veterans and their spouses get automatic MyLowe's Rewards Silver Status Benefits. Plus, 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honor and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more and verify now at Lowe's.com/military. 10% discount can't be combined with another offer. Exclusions, terms and conditions apply. Loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details at Lowe's.com/terms. Subject to change.
41:48 Speaker 12 There are two types of business owners: those who are busy and those who want to be busy. Toast is designed for both, with tools to keep you humming and help turn grind into growth. That's how you turn busy into business. Toast: Built for Busy.
42:16 Kate Lister? What about being ugly, then? Like, we've been spoken a lot about being beautiful. Ugly seems to be another one of those consistent things, like disfigurement scar. They must have had a fair bit of disfigurement wandering around in the Middle Ages.
42:31 Speaker 08 Oh, yeah, you know, you have issues, for example, like with leprosy, for example, is fairly endemic and common across Europe at the time, which can be pretty disfiguring. You know, if you come down with any diseases where you might end up with like pox marks. We don't have smallpox or things like that yet, but, you know, if you've got like chickenpox or something like that, that can really mess you up. Or, you know, even if you just end up having acne, you know, and your skin gets scarred. These are all things that are going to count against you. And certainly... It is a specific thing where ugliness will be associated with evil, right? Like where if you're not hot, well, then you must be evil.
43:12 Speaker 08 And then that gives me a reason why I'm allowed to kind of exclude you from society. So we see this in particular with people who have leprosy because they will be like, well, they kind of were asking for it, right? So there is this way of talking about people with leprosy as though they brought it on themselves because they were lustful, they were gluttonous, they are garrulous. They're just like shagging and fighting all the time and that's how you end up with leprosy. So the idea is that they were sinful, which is why they've ended up ugly like this. And then that just-
43:42 Kate Lister? That seems mean.
43:43 Speaker 08 Yeah, it's really mean and it just gives you carte blanche to just kind of be a bit of a dickhead to people who are having a really tough time.
43:49 Kate Lister? That's a cheap shot, medieval people.
43:51 Speaker 08 I know. Look, I like them very much, but I didn't say they were perfect.
43:55 Kate Lister? They're not, they're not as bad as the Romans. They're hands down the maddest, most cruel. If something's not being killed, quite frankly, they're not having a good time. What about fat and thin in the medieval periods? Because that's something that fluctuates as well, where like body shape, fat ratio.
44:13 Speaker 08 Yeah, so we want some fatness, like you know-
44:16 Kate Lister? They like a little bit of swish, don't they?
44:18 Speaker 08 Yeah, so like for the body standard for women remains pretty much ossified. And the thing that they are looking for is they want tiny little tits.
44:26 Kate Lister? Yeah.
44:27 Speaker 08 The smallest boobs available, right? Like as Cameron talks about like hot chicks boobs and they're like, they're small and hard like ivory, yowza, right? That's so that's what they're looking for. But you want what they call a luscious little pot belly.
44:41 Kate Lister? I can do that.
44:42 Speaker 08 Yeah, so that's hot. That's really hot. And then like junk in the trunk. You gotta be packing heat back there, okay? So we're, we're looking for a pear shape.
44:53 Kate Lister? Done.
44:54 Speaker 08 And that's what they want. So it's kind of like, it wouldn't necessarily be like obese or anything, but they definitely want you to have- Flesh.
45:02 Kate Lister? Cushion for the pushers.
45:03 Speaker 08 Yeah, and you know, again, this is one of these things where it's like that means that there's like money.
45:07 Kate Lister? Yeah, it's weird how much beauty and still today.
45:10 Speaker 08 Mm hmm.
45:11 Kate Lister? If you wanna look hot like a Vogue model, you know, like the money.
45:16 Speaker 08 Yeah, exactly. And we change whatever it is we think is hot to be whatever is the most difficult or expensive thing to acquire. So you know, when everyone couldn't afford a Brazilian butt lift, the Kardashians have big old boots.
45:29 Kate Lister? Yeah.
45:30 Speaker 08 And thank God for that, all right?
45:32 Kate Lister? And until quite recently, being overweight went from being something that only rich people could have because they could afford the food to actually now it's a sign of not having enough enough money and not being able to eat right and go to the gym. I wonder what's gonna happen with the dawning of Ozempic. What will happen now?
45:51 Speaker 08 Well, yeah, we're already seeing, I think, this backlash where we are getting like thinner and thinner women now again being posited as, you know.
46:00 Kate Lister? Don't do it. Don't go back to.
46:01 Speaker 08 I know, girl. I know, but, but and again, we're doing the same thing now with the way that we talk about diet or the way that we talk about fat as medieval people do with beauty, right? Where we really associate fatness with like some kind of moral inferiority.
46:16 Kate Lister? Control.
46:17 Speaker 08 Yeah, oh, well, you lack self-control and you're unable.
46:20 Kate Lister? Just do less, just go to the gym.
46:21 Speaker 08 Oh, yeah, as though that has anything to do with how bodies work and like all of the science tells you that that's absolute junk.
46:27 Kate Lister? Well, thank you for fixing that, Steve. Cheers for that.
46:30 Speaker 08 And it's just like, but we love to do it. You know, there, there's something that our society just really enjoys to do, which is place a moral weight on what we consider attractive, as though what we consider attractive doesn't change.
46:42 Kate Lister? Yeah, that's so true. Fat shape. Yeah, when you look at our attitude with fat today, I think you can actually get your head around a lot of historical attitudes with this linking of moral worth with how you look. And what about race? Because one of the the interesting things to come out of historical research in the past thirty years or so is is that historians suddenly went, did anyone check on the black people?
47:06 Speaker 08 Mm hmm.
47:07 Kate Lister? And then someone went, oh, fuck, no, we didn't. They're all here.
47:10 Speaker 08 Damn.
47:10 Kate Lister? Shit.
47:11 Speaker 08 Well, you know, a really great place to go see hot black people is one of my favorite paintings of all time, which is Hieronymus Bosch's The Garden of Earthly Delights.
47:20 Kate Lister? Well, that is that is a scene that he painted.
47:23 Speaker 08 Yeah, it is. It really, really is. And you can see very many hot naked people, some of whom are black. And it's hilarious because they're just like, they look exactly the same, but they are black.
47:34 Kate Lister? I love that.
47:35 Speaker 08 Yeah.
47:35 Kate Lister? It's not true. I'm being very flippant, but it's not true that people in the Middle Ages would have only thought that white people existed. They were much more multicultural and diverse than than we give them credit for.
47:46 Speaker 08 God, yeah. And I mean, like, especially places here like London, we know that there are lots of Africans around the shop. And honestly, it just makes us look like we suck here in Europe if you think that there aren't black people about. I'm like, dude, people wanted to come here. Like, you know, there's a lot of trade back and forth. People are moving around all the time. And all you have to do is like, sit down and read a medieval book. And they'll be like, oh, and then this person went on a voyage to wherever. And they talk about it all the time in these really matter of fact ways. They talk about what the trade routes are. And people move along those routes just as much as goods do. So we we know that a hundred percent you're coming into contact with other races. You know, probably, they will do some light racism at you if you are black, especially
48:31 Speaker 08 because there is such a premium put on light skin. But we also know that they clearly think that these people are hot, which is why they get included in stuff like The Garden of Earthly Delights, where they're like, I want to make a big hot fruit orgy scene. There's gonna be birds, real birds, and like women, birds, and some of them are black and they are also hot and sexy. And in my ideal garden orgy with giant berries, there will be black women as well. So there you go.
49:00 Kate Lister? So there might have been a sort of, it is still a type of racism, but an eroticizing of people that weren't white.
49:07 Speaker 08 Yeah, I mean, a hundred percent, like, I'm not like, please do not say, don't let anyone say that I said Hieronymus Bosch was perfect racial politics. But, you know, certainly, he posits these people as people who can be attractive and certainly like on par. But of course, they're also, you know, the Garden of Earthly Delights exists as, in theory, an admonishment, like, don't you do it.
49:27 Kate Lister? He does also paint like frogs eating people's bottoms.
49:30 Speaker 08 Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you paint the big, you paint the big garden orgy to be like, and you shouldn't like this.
49:37 Kate Lister? Don't threaten me with a good.
49:38 Speaker 08 Which is how you get away with it, right? You gotta, you gotta be like, oh, no, it's very bad.
49:45 Kate Lister? Stop looking at it. This is an awful scene.
49:46 Speaker 08 Oh, wow. I can't believe, wow, gotcha. How about you think this is sexy, you pervert?
49:57 Kate Lister? Thanks for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Coming up, we've got episodes on the contraceptive pill and the third in this mini series, What Made You an Ugo in Tudor Times? This podcast was edited by Tim Arstle and produced by Stuart Beckworth. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets, The History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
50:37 Speaker 13 500 orders a month was manageable. 5,000 is madness. Embrace intelligent order fulfillment with ShipStation, the only platform combining order management, warehouse workflows, inventory, returns and analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, ShipStation does in one. Automate fulfillment and rate shopping to ship up to 15 times more with up to 90% savings. Go to shipstation.com and use code AUDIO to try ShipStation free for 60 days.
51:07 Speaker 14 Hey, I'm Pablo Torre, host of Pablo Torre Finds Out, and I have chased down a lot of strange stories. But nothing quite like what's inside a McDonald's Quarter Pounder with cheese. 100% fresh beef, cooked right when you order it. Hand-topped onions, plus cheese and pickles in every bite. And right now, you can get one with medium fries and a drink for just $8. Only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California. And for delivery, fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery.
Previous The Hangwoman of 18th Century Ireland Next The Dandy: Dressing in Defiance Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated