Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society What Did Jane Austen Know About Sex? About this episode She wrote some of the most enduring romances in literature. But what did Jane Austen really know about love ... and sex?
From longing looks and flirtation, to seduction and elopement, in this episode we're investigating how much of Jane Austen's works was based on experience.
Kate is joined by John Mullan, Lord Northcliffe Professor of Modern English Literature at University College London and author of 'What Matters in Jane Austen?'
Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.
You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK.
All music from Epidemic Sounds.
Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast.
Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript 8,981 words · 12 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:39 Speaker 01 At Lowe's, this Veterans Day and every day, military members, veterans and their spouses get automatic MyLowe's Rewards Silver Status Benefits. Plus, 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honour and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more and verify now at lowe's.com/military. 10% discount can't be combined with another offer. Exclusions, terms and conditions apply. Loyalty programmes subject to terms and conditions. Details at lowe's.com/terms. Subject to change.
1:07 Speaker 02 There are two types of business owners: those who are busy and those who want to be busy. Toast is designed for both, with tools to keep you humming and help turn grind into growth. That's how you turn busy into business. Toast: Built for Busy.
1:23 Speaker 03 Hey, it's Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odour control and forms compact clumps that make clean-up easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.
1:57 Kate Lister? Hello my lovely Betwixters, it's me Kate Leicester and you are listed to Betwixt the Sheets and we're so glad that you are, you are very, very welcome here. But before I can welcome you in any further, halt, stop, do not proceed any more, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. And we have to tell you that because it might get a bit saucy, it might get a bit spicy and you might get a bit offended. But let's be honest, that's what we're all here for really. Right, on with the show.
2:38 Kate Lister? Ah, a regency drawing room, the perfect setting for a tea party. Delicious. The clinking of porcelain, the hum of polite, restrained conversation. Our hostess smiles charmingly, elegantly pouring the tea from the pot, drops in sugar cubes with silver tongs and offers you cream from a jug. How delightful. Every moment is measured, every movement means something. If you look about, not everything is as polite as it first appears. That gentleman's eyes lingering on the hostess's daughter, that young woman's hands brushed the side of a man she fancies as she passed him in the corridor. Oh my god, we've all quivered
3:21 Kate Lister? underneath our bodices. Even comments about the weather or about a benign acquaintance all carry meaning. Welcome to the world of Jane Austen. And today we're getting beneath Austen's bonnet and finding out exactly what was going on beneath that very polite exterior.
3:47 Speaker 04 What do you look for in a man?
3:49 Speaker 05 Oh, money of course.
3:50 Speaker 04 You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
3:52 Speaker 05 I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning him up and pushing the button.
4:05 Speaker 06 Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
4:08 Speaker 07 Goodness, what a beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.
4:16 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Pride and prejudice, sense and sensibility, and of course, Emma. This year marks 250 years since Jane Austen's birth and her works are still resonating with us today. Yes, some people have called them boring, but frankly, they are wrong. Something is keeping us turning the pages, watching the remakes, and it can't just be Mr. Darcy smouldering at us from the pages, can it? Austen is all about relationships, scandal in society, but how much did she really know about that personally? When she wrote about falling in love, was any of that from her own experience? And what was the rudest and raunchiest thing she ever wrote?
5:01 Kate Lister? Well, today, I'm joined by Professor John Mullin of University College London, author of What Matters in Jane Austen. So straighten your backs, get your fans at the ready, let's do this.
5:17 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Professor John Mullin. How are you doing?
5:23 Speaker 08 Fine. Thank you.
5:26 Kate Lister? Thank you so much for coming to talk to us about the one and only Jane Austen, because you are an Austen heavyweight, professor of English literature specialised in the 18th century. You've written on Austen, you've lectured Austen. She's your girl. Can you remember when you first encountered her?
5:47 Speaker 08 I can, and I'm afraid it's a rather prosaic encounter, because I did first encounter her, not as I should have done, and as I would have done if I'd been a passionate 15-year-old girl, but I was not. I was a teenage boy, so I encountered her as an A-level set book, I'm afraid. And I had a very good teacher, so although the A- Level set but was persuasion. He also, I think, got us to read a bit more. So I read Emma as well. And it wasn't an instant conversion, I'm afraid, Kate. I mean, I totally, I was enough of a literary snob then, even then, to realise that it was, they were very, very well written, you know?
6:31 Speaker 08 I saw that the sentences were things of beauty, but I foolishly thought, oh, you know, I've read two of them now and they're about the same thing. They're about, you know, how can you get a husband? And when I was sixteen or seventeen, that didn't immediately switch me on, I'm afraid.
6:50 Kate Lister? That is something that I have heard from students that I've taught Jane Austen to many a time is that it's sort of the same story happening again and again, that the scope, they don't say the scope of it is quite limited. They go, oh, God, so boring. That's what I've heard a few times. Not as bad as Mark Twain. What did, what did he say about Austen?
7:11 Speaker 08 Yeah, he said, every time I read her, I feel like beating her over the head with her own shin bone. But I mean, even that, you see, he was talking for effect, as he often did, or writing for effect. I mean, you should hear the first bit of that, every time I read her. So he did keep going back. Yes, yes. And that's the, that's the interesting thing. He drove her mad and yet he couldn't kind of put her down, you know?
7:38 Kate Lister? I've never thought of that before. I only focused on the last bit about wanting to
7:43 Speaker 08 Right.
7:43 Kate Lister? dig her up and beat her with her own shin bone. But no, he, he did go back to that. How interesting. We will start with a very basic question. There is a kind of reputation around Jane Austen in the popular imagination that she was this slightly gentle, genteel, spinster lady who lived in a nice house and liked her sister a lot and wrote these nice stories that she read aloud to people at night. And I never even dreamed that anyone else would want to read them and that, that she, she never really experienced any of this stuff herself. What do you say to that?
8:19 Speaker 08 Well, that's quite a lot of, that's quite a lot in there, Kate. And one or two of those, one or two of bits of that are sort of true. I mean, she did read her novels in progress aloud in the evening to her sort of family, especially to her family. She was genteel, but not rich or anything. And everybody can go and visit her house by the efforts of some big Jane Austen fans in the mid 20th century who's sort of been preserved. And if you imagine all the family members who had to live in it, well, her and her mother and her sister and the family friend, she wasn't wealthy.
8:59 Speaker 08 So when she wrote her novels, she was really, for instance, she was really keen on getting them published and making some money from them. Whether she knew or, or had an idea that she was going to live on beyond her own times, I mean, is up for debate. Yeah. I think she did, but she certainly wanted to sell books. She certainly wasn't saying, you know, oh, little me, you know, I'm too modest to get them published. She made great efforts with her brother's help and her dad's help before he died to try to get published. And it took her a long time and she didn't get published till she was in her mid 30s.
9:39 Speaker 08 But she was really keen on selling the books and getting some money because, you know, she totally depended upon her, first her father when she was young, but then on her brothers after her father died. So she never had any money of her own till she sold some books and then deliciously she did and she loved that. And she went to London and bought some clothes. That's my girl, that's my girl. But also I think it'd be wrong to think of her as a particularly sort of self-effacing and timid person. I don't, I mean, all the evidence we have, and you only have to read some of her surviving letters, that wasn't her character at all.
10:21 Speaker 08 And I think that all the evidence is that she, I think she sort of also knew, once she got into Into the swim of it and had written her first couple of novels, Pride and Prejudice being her second. I think she knew she was much better than her contemporaries.
10:38 Kate Lister? Oh, I love that.
10:38 Speaker 08 She read all the novelists who were writing at the time and she must have known how much better she was. And so I'm not sure she would have even been surprised to think that she lived, her books survived beyond her lifetime.
10:54 Kate Lister? Why do you, I mean, this is very difficult because she's not here to just explain it to us. But where do you think this need to be a writer, this urge to earn her living by writing? Where did that come from? Because today, if someone says they want to be a writer, you're like, brilliant, go, run free. But also, it's still quite a precarious thing. When she was doing it, for a woman to write books, that was really quite shocking and risky. Where do you think this came from?
11:19 Speaker 08 Yes, I mean, I don't want to disagree with you too much, Kate.
11:23 Kate Lister? Oh, please disagree with me, yeah.
11:25 Speaker 08 Well, it's not, it wasn't so shocking and risky. I mean, the important thing is Jane Austen, although I said she enjoyed the money she earned, she didn't have to write for a living. And she never thought that that's why she was doing it. I mean, she depended on her family to keep her going, sometimes quite precariously.
11:43 Kate Lister? Okay.
11:43 Speaker 08 After her dad's death. But she wasn't like one or two female contemporaries who definitely wrote sort of to make a living. And the thing is, there were quite a lot of women who published under their own names. Jane Austen was anonymous throughout her lifetime, but there were quite a lot of women who published books, both especially novels. And actually, until Walter Scott came along in the sort of second decade of the 19th century. Most of the bestselling novelists who earned most money in Jane Austen's lifetime were women, not men.
12:23 Speaker 08 So Vanny Burney, Anne Radcliffe, Mariah Edgeworth, they were all really successful, commanded quite big advances and were known and admired by Jane Austen and her contemporaries. So by the time she wrote, it would have been a bit different, maybe 50 years earlier. But by the time she wrote, it wasn't actually so strange for a woman to be an author. It was unusual for a woman to write books of history or philosophy or politics. But novels, that was okay. So she was joining quite a sort of crowded field, actually.
13:02 Kate Lister? Why do you think she stayed anonymous? Why didn't she blazon her name on her books? I'm Jane Austen, I'm here.
13:08 Speaker 08 Well, the first thing is it was really usual, normal for all sort of novelists to start off anonymous.
13:17 Kate Lister? Okay.
13:18 Speaker 08 So almost every great novelist, not just before Jane Austen, but even after, you know, even people like Thomas Hardy and Charles Dickens, it wasn't just women.
13:28 Kate Lister? Hmm.
13:29 Speaker 08 Published their first novels anonymously or pseudonymously. And then maybe if you were successful, you gradually decided at a certain stage to reveal yourself. So it was thought to be, as it were respectable, very different from us, Kate, you know, where authors are always telling you about themselves all the time. Okay? Very, very different. It was thought to be respectable to cut off your fictional output from, as it were, your private self.
14:00 Kate Lister? Okay.
14:01 Speaker 08 So, you know, even later in the 19th century, when Charlotte Bronte, who of course, published under a pseudonym, Carabao, even when Jane Eyre was a bestseller and everybody knew who it was by after a while, and she was invited to glitzy celebrity literary parties. But everybody was told in advance, you can't talk to her about her novels. She's not prepared to do that. Yes? So you have to pretend that this sort of gap between the novelist and the private person exists. So Jane Austen was not being. Especially modest and the guy I've mentioned, who was her sort of most successful contemporary Walter Scott.
14:39 Speaker 08 He became the best selling novelist in the world in, you know, in the sort of years just immediately after Jane Austen's death. But he carried on publishing anonymously, even though everybody knew it was him. It was like a, I know it seems strange to us, but it was an established convention. And I think Jane Austen, she hadn't died when she did, she was forty one and she'd published six novels. And she was, I think, on the brink.
15:07 Kate Lister? She was about to go.
15:08 Speaker 08 Of becoming well known. And after all, the Prince Regent had discovered who she was and sent a special request. Because he loved her novels to her to dedicate her next novel to him, which she very grudgingly did. Because, you know, so people were beginning to find out who she was.
15:29 Kate Lister? One of the, the most frustrating, I suppose, most fascinating things about the whole Austen story is that it, she really was cut short just as she was about to.
15:38 Speaker 08 Yes.
15:38 Kate Lister? Like make it big, right?
15:40 Speaker 08 Oh my, I mean, it's so painful because she was forty one. All her family lived, pretty much lived into their seventies or eighties.
15:48 Kate Lister? No.
15:49 Speaker 08 Including her mother, sister and poor old Cassandra, her sister. One of the reasons I think history has treated her rather meanly is not only did she destroy lots of Jane's letters. But she lived on for sort of another forty years and everybody sort of said, oh, the wrong sister, the wrong sister.
16:08 Kate Lister? That's a bit mean.
16:09 Speaker 08 It is mean, it is mean, but imagine if Jane Austen had lived into her sixties, seventies and written another six, ten novels. Which she would have done, you know, she was still absolutely on it. I mean, it doesn't bear thinking about, does it?
16:24 Kate Lister? No, I suppose it's about that kind of, I guess that makes her even more precious, the works that we've got.
16:29 Speaker 08 Yes.
16:30 Kate Lister? She was the, she was, her genius wasn't fully recognised in her lifetime. I think she'd be absolutely fuming about that, quite frankly.
16:37 Speaker 08 Yes, yes, yes, yes, you know, you're right. I think the fact that she was cut short and remember in the, you know, she died at forty-one. In the previous seven years, she'd published six novels or finished six novels. Two of them were published after her death. So she was really, you know, creating at an amazing rate. So, I mean, that does, you're absolutely right, make them somehow more precious. You know, it's like the poetry of Keats because he died so young. It gives them an extra voltage, doesn't it? And Jane Austen, we've got these six fabulous novels. Oh, and that's it.
17:20 Kate Lister? I'll be back with John and Jane after this short break.
17:37 Kate Lister? Autumn is underway at last, which means the nights are closing in and everything in nature feels like it's just slowing down, except us, of course. For most of us, me included, the world still has a lot of demands on us that can feel like a lot to deal with. There will be a time in all of our lives when we could use therapy, but often when you try to do that, it's still way harder than it should be. Finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance? That's where most online therapy platforms fall short. Many don't work with insurance at all, which means you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription.
18:22 Kate Lister? Ruler does things differently. They partner with over a hundred insurance plans, making the average co-pay just fifteen dollars per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit ruler.com/sheets to get started. That's R U L A dot com forward slash S H E E T S, Sheets. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
19:02 Speaker 01 At Lowe's, this Veterans Day and every day, military members, veterans and their spouses get automatic Milo's Rewards Silver Status Benefits. Plus, 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honor and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more and verify now at Lowe's.com/military. 10% discount can't be combined with another offer. Exclusions, terms and conditions apply. Loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Details at Lowe's.com/terms. Subject to change.
19:31 Speaker 03 Hey, it's Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my Hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.
20:02 Speaker 09 Most AI knows data. Toast IQ knows restaurants. It helps turn Detroit 75's numbers, plus what works across thousands of restaurants, into insights we can actually use. That's AI that's worked a double without a lunch break. Visit toastapp.com to learn more. Pay testimonial from an actual Toast customer.
20:31 Kate Lister? You were saying just earlier that there was this big sort of divide between the author and their private life, which is something that we still grapple with today. Yes. But let's talk about Jane Austen's private life, because this woman wrote, they have to be some of the most romantic novels that have ever been published. It is largely focused around, would we say romance? Because I think it's more complicated than that, but around relationships. What of her own life did she put into this? Did she, did she have a Mr. Darcy? Or did it turn out to be a Mr. Wickham?
21:09 Speaker 08 Well, actually, I think she had a Mr. Collins, to tell you the truth.
21:12 Kate Lister? Oh, no, oh, no.
21:13 Speaker 08 Oh, yeah. Well, no, that's a bit unfair to, I mean, we know very little. I mean, there are two relationships of the heart, apparently, that she had, we do know about. And the one we know most about, in a way, is the one where she actually accepted a proposal of marriage. And she was in her late twenties. She was the sort of age that Charlotte Lucas is in Pride and Prejudice, or that Anne Elliot is in Persuasion. And we know that she accepted a proposal of marriage from a man who was younger than her, just as Mr. Collins is younger than Charlotte Lucas in Pride and Prejudice, called Harris Bigwither.
21:53 Kate Lister? Oh, dear, right, yeah.
21:55 Speaker 08 It's not a very, it's not a very Mr. Darcy name, is it?
21:58 Kate Lister? No.
21:59 Speaker 08 But he was the brother, his two sisters were really good friends of the Austin family and of Jane and Cassandra in the provinces, in the countryside in the early 19th century. You know, you couldn't go to kind of, if you're a woman, you didn't go to university and meet somebody. You didn't get a job and meet somebody. So very often, it was an immediate circle of friends and even cousins that you would marry into. And he was going to inherit a really sizable property and a handsome income for life.
22:34 Kate Lister? Jane.
22:34 Speaker 08 And it would have made Jane comfortable and secure. That would be the word, that's the word used in Emma of what's going to happen to Harriet Smith when she marries Mr. Robert Martin. She'll be secure, safe forever. And she accepted him one evening and then changed her mind over breakfast.
22:54 Kate Lister? Oh, Jane.
22:55 Speaker 08 And turned him down the next day.
22:56 Kate Lister? What happened?
22:58 Speaker 08 Well, that's all we know. But I mean, I think it's pretty clear that what happened was perhaps aided by a couple of glasses of wine. Because Jane Austen liked a tipple. We know that. She did like a tipple. She accepted him presumably for good pragmatic reasons. And then woke up next day, or maybe lay sleepless in her bed, who knows, thinking, what have I done? And I'm sure you'll know, Kate, that the rules of the game, which are there in Jane Austen novels, really, really important to Sense and Sensibility, her first published novel, that when a man proposes marriage, the rule, it's not just a rule, it's the law of the land.
23:44 Speaker 08 Once he's proposed, he can't change his mind. But the woman can. So the woman can release him. But he is committed by law and can be taken to court for breach of promise if he tries to dodge it. So Jane Austen had to think about it. And then changed her mind. And we presume that that's because she never sort of loved him or anything. She just.
24:09 Kate Lister? That's a big thing, though, isn't it? That she would, like, I know that, like, looking back from 2025, and that you can look at it and go, oh, she put her career first and she knew she didn't love blah, blah. But that's a big thing to turn that down because security at the time, that was vitally important.
24:26 Speaker 08 I know. But I mean, if she'd married him, of course, she wouldn't have written the novels, I think. I don't think there's any chance at all she would have written the novels. She would have had, especially if, you know, she'd had children.
24:37 Kate Lister? No, yeah.
24:38 Speaker 08 There are one or two examples of of women of her of her period who got married and carried on writing, but usually it was because they didn't have any children. And anyway, she would have had lots of children. People I know say, and she would have died in childbirth, probably. But I mean, that's a possibility too, of course. But she would have had children and she would have lived the life of a of a good wife. And I think it's vanishingly, you know, extremely unlikely she would have written those novels. So you know, good that she said no.
25:09 Kate Lister? And she came from a family of good breeders as well. They were they were big families, weren't they?
25:14 Speaker 08 They were lots of big families, but also people did die. Her sister in law, Elizabeth. Died after having her eighth child shortly afterwards, so from the effects of childbirth, leaving Jane's brother Edward with all these children. And also, you know, bereft, but I mean, you know, having children killed her sister in law. But of course, Jane's mother had six children and, you know, it was hail and hearty. So lots of big families.
25:41 Kate Lister? What happened to Mr. Bigwither? Where did he go? Did he, was he devastated?
25:46 Speaker 08 Mr. Bigwither went off and married, so he found another wife eventually. So we don't have to worry too much about him. But Jane Austen also, I mean, much more tantalisingly because we don't really know. She had a romance when she was in her late teens, early twenties, who was really quite attractive. And dashing. And there is some evidence that his parents, who thought that Jane Austen was not a good enough. She wasn't going to bring any money or anything to that match, sort of hurried him away to. And he became a very successful lawyer eventually and also married quite happily. So Jane Austen, when she was young, was in the market.
26:27 Speaker 08 She would have gone to all those balls and danced with people and, you know, who knows? But there's very, Cassandra weeded the correspondence very carefully. So there's very little evidence of whether her, of the flutters of her youthful heart, as it were.
26:43 Kate Lister? What do we know about that teenage, young relationship, that little frisson? What, what existing evidence do we have of that, that anything happened at all?
26:52 Speaker 08 Well, we just have a couple of very early letters from Jane Austen saying, and she'll say, she says something like, you know, "We behaved disgracefully at the dance together", you know, which might, which will probably, I'm afraid, Kate, it means probably that they danced more than twice together, which was a bit of a sort of naughty thing to do. And sort of flirted a bit. It doesn't, I'm afraid, mean anything more compromising than that.
27:23 Kate Lister? Do you think she ever got into anything more compromising? I know we're not supposed to speculate. I know that.
27:29 Speaker 08 No, no, it's, I think it's fine. I think it's absolutely fine to speculate, but I, and I think that actually, I will cut to the chase on this one. Did she ever? Snog somebody? That's totally possible.
27:42 Kate Lister? Okay.
27:43 Speaker 08 Did she ever have sex? I think that's almost impossible.
27:47 Kate Lister? Okay.
27:47 Speaker 08 Because it would have been such a mad, mad thing to do. I mean, it would have been really, really crazy, risky, compromising. Sex before marriage, of course, it happened a lot. But for the class of people that Jane Austen belonged to, I guess the only way in which, unless you were bonkers, it would happen is if you were, basically if you were a woman, not if you were a man, you were safe, you're fine.
28:17 Kate Lister? Fine, help yourself.
28:18 Speaker 08 Absolutely fine. You could get away with murder. No, that's the wrong metaphor, sorry. You could get away with an awful lot. As character's doing in her novel, you know, Henry Crawford, he's not married. He has sex with Mariah Rushworth, who is married. And it ruins her reputation, but he sails on absolutely fine to shag again, as it were. So men could get away with anything, especially if they were at all aristocratic. But if you were a woman, I think the only way in which, you know, you could sort of get away with having sex before marriage is if it was with somebody you were going to marry.
28:55 Kate Lister? Hmm.
28:55 Speaker 08 But that was much more common, I think, all the evidence is that's much more common amongst the labouring classes, where people were very often, you know, there's a lot of evidence from parish records to suggest that couples getting married, the woman is quite often pregnant already, the young woman. But Jane Austen, I think it's very, very unlikely that she ever had sex. But I'm sure she had, as we might say, sexual feelings.
29:23 Kate Lister? Yep.
29:24 Speaker 08 You know, because her novels are full of people, I would say, who have those feelings.
29:28 Kate Lister? They're full of it.
29:30 Speaker 08 Yes.
29:31 Kate Lister? I was just about to ask you that. So if we've got, and it's completely conceivable that a woman of the lower gentry, gentry, if nothing else, the practicalities of sneaking away to have sex are very difficult.
29:41 Speaker 08 The practicalities are difficult and also, you know, there is, I mean, they are much less, I would say, in Jane Austen's day. In general, people are less kind of obsessively hung up about fallen women and so on than the Victorians were to become. When Lydia Bennet is
30:01 Kate Lister? Naughty Lydia.
30:02 Speaker 08 Going off having sex with Wickham in London and Wickham is this practice rake and Lydia is only two months past her 16th birthday. I mean, she's young and he's in his mid twenties. I think even nowadays, you know, quite a lot of parents might think, whoa.
30:19 Kate Lister? Yep.
30:19 Speaker 08 I'm not sure this is good.
30:21 Kate Lister? Agreed.
30:22 Speaker 08 And this is in an age before any kind of reliable contraception as well. Mary, Elizabeth's sister and Mr. Collins, the ghastly Mr. Collins, all sort of say Victorian type things about it. Mr. Collins actually says, her death would be a blessing.
30:40 Kate Lister? Nice.
30:41 Speaker 08 And Elizabeth thinks, what a load of rubbish, you know?
30:45 Kate Lister? Yes, she does, doesn't she?
30:46 Speaker 08 However, you know, everybody also thinks, get her married for goodness sake.
30:52 Kate Lister? Right.
30:52 Speaker 08 You know, get Wickham to marry her because otherwise he's going to dump her. And then she's not going to be able to get another husband because she will be sort of damaged goods.
31:02 Kate Lister? There is a lot of this in her novels. Willoughby, boo hiss, seduces Colonel Brandon's 16, again, 16 year old
31:11 Speaker 08 Yes.
31:11 Kate Lister? Daughter, gets her pregnant.
31:13 Speaker 08 Daughter, she's his ward.
31:15 Kate Lister? That's right, yes. And again, he lives to shag another day, goes off, gets married.
31:19 Speaker 08 He does, he does. The only price he pays for it is, as it were, losing Marianne, whom he claims that he loves, but but he doesn't really pay much of a price. And actually, in the last chapter of Mansfield Park, because quite often in the last chapter of her novels, Jane Austen sort of steps in and, as it were, speaks to us. Having kept away for the whole of the novel, she sort of, and she does actually, you know, almost in an author's voice. She says about Henry Crawford, I can't remember that word, but she said something like, well, you know, as is always the case. He goes on to live his life without any.
31:59 Speaker 08 Shame or a program attaching to him, but that's also partly because he's posh and rich. So, you know, generally speaking, not just in the novels, but I think the evidence is it from Jane Austen's letters in her life as well. If you were wealthy and especially if you were aristocratic or semi aristocratic, you could get away with all sorts of stuff. And after all, the royal family in Jane Austen's day are behaving really, really badly and it's all being reported in the newspapers, you know, not just the Prince Regent, but most of his brothers, you know, including Queen Victoria's father, they've all got mistresses and they're all quite open about it.
32:42 Kate Lister? They're absolute dirtbags. They are, aren't they?
32:45 Speaker 08 Well.
32:46 Kate Lister? I shouldn't say that. Scallywags.
32:48 Speaker 08 To coin a phrase. Yeah. But also it's public entertainment, just like it would be now, just as it has been in in our lifetimes, you know, so it's reported in the press, the cavorting of the upper class.
33:00 Kate Lister? Do you think that this is something that Jane Austen would have witnessed in her own social circle, the threat of ruination? Because it does turn up in her novels a lot, that some young girl gets seduced by some tall rake with a posh accent who promises of the world and then he ditches her and he's off again. Did that happen to anyone around her?
33:22 Speaker 08 Absolutely. She does see all these things around her. She sees a bit, the cavortings of the upper class, the local aristocrat who lives with his mistress, for instance, you know, which you can only do if you're upper class. She must have seen and been heard about, even if only through village gossip, what happened at the lowest end of the scale. Because of course, you know, one of the things unmarried men who look for a sexual outlet, as it were, as far as we know, lots of kind of sexual relationships with servants went on and some of them, you know, ended in pregnancy and so on. And Jane
34:07 Speaker 08 Austen is totally aware of all that. There's one tantalizing reference to a distant cousin.
34:13 Kate Lister? Ooh.
34:14 Speaker 08 Called Fanny, who. Was clearly having a shotgun marriage and it's in one of her letters to Cassandra. And she doesn't explicitly say this. I think she uses the word disgrace. Of what she's done, but luckily there's going to be a happy ending because the man's going to marry her. She's obviously, she's writing to her sister and the point is, is her sister already knows all about it. So she's frustratingly implicit, but that seems one particular instance of just such a story. But again, I would say, you know, compared to the Victorians, you know,
34:53 Kate Lister? There's no coming back from that.
34:54 Speaker 08 In a Victorian novel, she either dies, becomes a sex worker or goes to Australia.
35:01 Kate Lister? That's it. And she seems to quite enjoy herself as well, does Lydia?
35:04 Speaker 08 Yes, she does. And she's, she comes back with Wickham and she's hanging on his arm. And it says something like Lydia was still very fond of her husband.
35:15 Kate Lister? Yes.
35:15 Speaker 08 And I think that that's a code word for she's still sexually enraptured.
35:21 Kate Lister? Yeah.
35:21 Speaker 08 And Jane Austen expected, I think, her readers to know
35:26 Kate Lister? Yeah.
35:27 Speaker 08 What she was implying.
35:28 Kate Lister? In your book, What Matters in Jane Austen, you make the point that a lot of her characters, when you look at them, you have incidents of quite sensible men, quite clever men, marrying absolute car crashes of women, which is complete head cases. Tell me what your, what your thoughts are on that and why that's in her book.
35:50 Speaker 08 Yes. Well, there are some notable examples. I mean, the most famous one, which even people who haven't read any Jane Austen know about is Mr. And Mrs. Bennett, you know, and Mr. Bennett is in some ways an irresponsible person. He's actually to blame for a lot of, a lot of the disasters that happened to his daughters and to Lydia, you know, he lets her go to Brighton and anyway, he's an odd mixture of irresponsibility and just really disarming, amusing cleverness, you know, and he's
36:26 Speaker 08 Such a clever, sophisticated, subtle man. And he's, until Elizabeth meets Mr. Darcy, he seems to be the only one who understands Elizabeth's sense of humour at all, and she understands his. And there's a wonderful sentence at the end of the first chapter of Pride of Bridges. Let's see if I can do it, Kate. Okay. It's one of my favourite sentences in all fiction. Mr. Bennet was so odd a mixture of quick parts, sarcastic humour, reserve and caprice, that the experience of three and twenty years had been insufficient to make his wife understand his character. So there you have it.
37:09 Speaker 08 He's so clever, odd a mixture, quick wit, quick parts, sarcastic humour, reserve and caprice. And he's got his wife who doesn't understand him at all. And essentially, he has married her because he fancied her, you know, and she was quite young, we're told, so she probably was seventeen or something. And he was in his mid twenties, maybe. And he fancied her, and because he's a decent chap, the only way of sort of getting her was to marry her. And he married her and they had five children. And actually, there's quite an interesting sentence that people don't always notice
37:49 Speaker 08 because, of course, they're all girls, so none of them can inherit the estate, which is going to go to Mr. Collins, a distant cousin, instead. And it said, for many years after the birth of Lydia, the youngest, Mrs. Bennet was sure that they would have a son, which I think means that they can't, you know, they had, as we say, an active sex life. They must have done, but they didn't have another child. So Mr. Bennet is in this marriage with this woman who doesn't understand anything of him, although of his cleverness. And really, quite amusingly but distressingly, his diversion is sort of mocking her, really.
38:31 Speaker 08 And, which is funny but not good, as they say. But, you know, he married her because he fancied her and he, you know, must have carried on fancying her. But Mr. and Mrs. Palmer in Sense and Sensibility, just the same. Oh, she's lunatic, isn't she? She, she laughs at everything. Yes. Even when her chickens are eaten. Yes. And her husband constantly puts her down and she just roars with laughter at everything he says. Brilliant tactic, actually. And her mother says, well, you can't get out of it now. You've got her for life. Ha, ha, ha.
39:06 Kate Lister? Too late now.
39:07 Speaker 08 And of course, she's pregnant because he may laugh at her, but he has sex with her.
39:12 Kate Lister? Yes, he is. Yeah. And Edward Ferrars as well. Edward Ferrars gets trapped in an engagement to Lucy Steele, another lunatic.
39:20 Speaker 08 Lucy Steele, yes. And he, he marries her. And of course, I think, don't you think we guess that, you know, you're asking sex before marriage, she rather like, you know, I don't know, Anne Boleyn or something, she'd be too clever to give him what he wants until he sealed the deal.
39:39 Kate Lister? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
39:41 Speaker 08 So.
39:41 Kate Lister? She's cunning as Lucy.
39:42 Speaker 08 She must make him really, really want to go to bed with her.
39:46 Kate Lister? Yeah.
39:47 Speaker 08 So much that he's prepared to marry her as rapidly as possible.
39:51 Kate Lister? Yes.
39:51 Speaker 08 Yeah. And then it says they're having a very happy honeymoon.
40:00 Kate Lister? I'll be back with John and Jane after this short break.
40:19 Speaker 10 Granger knows. If you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it. So you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.
40:50 Speaker 09 Most AI knows data. Toast IQ knows restaurants. It helps turn Detroit 75's numbers, plus what works across thousands of restaurants into insights we can actually use. That's AI that's worked a double without a lunch break. Visit toastapp.com to learn more. Pay testimonial from an actual Toast customer.
41:18 Kate Lister? There's clearly this sexual tension in her book, if anything that she recognizes that men will do very silly things to get their leg over. Do you think that she says very much about women's desires, or is that...
41:31 Speaker 08 That's such an interesting question, isn't it? Because when a woman marries a man who's an idiot, she, you know, like Charlotte Lucas with Mr. Collins,
41:42 Kate Lister? Yes.
41:42 Speaker 08 Or Mariah Bertram with Mr. Rushworth, she does it for essentially financial reasons, to get security, to get a big house, in Mariah Bertram's case, with no suggestion at all of, but she'll find it sexually gratifying.
42:03 Kate Lister? No.
42:03 Speaker 08 So Jane Austen, definitely, it's not a symmetrical thing at all. And I think that we're allowed to sense that the heroines of the novels feel a sort of physical attraction, in several of the cases, anyway, to the men that they love, that love includes physical attraction. But I don't think we get anything like a representation of sort of young women, you know, doing foolish things out of sexual passion. I don't think we get that.
42:39 Kate Lister? Marianne's probably the closest, isn't it? But even then, that whole story's kind of slapped down. It's like a bad Marianne. You got all carried away there and you got well giddy and it was bad.
42:48 Speaker 08 You're right. She is well giddy and she's sort of punished for it, isn't she?
42:54 Kate Lister? Yeah.
42:55 Speaker 08 But it's very displaced, isn't it? It's not, we can say that what Marianne is feeling, aged 17, is sexual passion. And certainly, there's certain kind of key indicators. Willoughby's really good looking, he's dashing, he's, you know, tireless, he can dance all night and then ride off hunting first thing next morning. And she loves all that. And dancing, of course, in Jane Austen often feels as though it's a bit of a... Surrogate for sex.
43:24 Kate Lister? Yeah.
43:24 Speaker 08 And the dancing was physically quite demanding. Lydia, you know, can dance half the night.
43:31 Kate Lister? Yes, she can.
43:31 Speaker 08 Marianne dances with Willoughby for hour after hour. And we may say, oh, that's all about sex really, but that's us saying it, not Jane Austen telling us it. Because Marianne is certainly, I think she's foolish, but she's not going to be foolish enough to sleep with him.
43:49 Kate Lister? No, yeah, I think you're right, actually. I think, no, that, I don't think that was ever on the cards.
43:53 Speaker 08 But she would be foolish enough to marry him.
43:56 Kate Lister? Yeah, yeah, lucky escape.
43:58 Speaker 08 Yes. And who knows? I mean, there's another plot where he actually, because the point, of course, in Sense and Sensibility, is everybody thinks they're engaged.
44:07 Kate Lister? Yes.
44:07 Speaker 08 But he never has popped the question.
44:10 Kate Lister? Scoundrel.
44:10 Speaker 08 There's another novel which Jane Austen might have written, where he does propose to her and they're engaged. And she thinks, oh, he's going to marry me now. And maybe then she would sleep with him. I don't know. She is a bit of a fool.
44:25 Kate Lister? She is. I think she might do. Whoa.
44:27 Speaker 08 She might do, but she would have to be engaged, I think, which of course she never is.
44:33 Kate Lister? What is it about the reoccurring seaside motif in Jane Austen?
44:40 Speaker 08 To cut to the chase here.
44:41 Kate Lister? Yeah.
44:42 Speaker 08 Yes, the seaside. Beware, beware. Don't go to Brighton, Kate.
44:47 Kate Lister? Absolutely not.
44:49 Speaker 08 Depending on what you're looking for.
44:50 Kate Lister? Oh, I don't think I've got the strength anymore.
44:52 Speaker 08 Oh, Brighton is simply the most sinful place in the whole world, you know. London's nothing on Brighton. Of course, when Lydia goes to Brighton, chaperoned by a friend who's, you know, Colonel Campbell's wife, who's a very young wife, so she's probably just seventeen. Of course, she ends up in a terrible mess because in British film or fiction, anybody who goes to Brighton, it's sexually dangerous. But I think the seaside in general in Jane Austen, it's a place where normal restraints and conventions are loosened.
45:29 Kate Lister? Okay.
45:30 Speaker 08 Where you might even wear different clothes from slightly more of the Clothing clothes, but certainly where the sort of rules, the unwritten rules about who can meet whom in what company, you know, and how young women would always have to be chaperoned and things are relaxed. And there's an extraordinary sentence in Mansfield Park where Tom Bertram, who's a sort of, let's say, a sort of rather unrestrained young man, a very privileged young man, he's the heir to the estate. And he's talking about, you know, having been at the seaside with his friend and his friend's mother, who
46:12 Speaker 08 must be, she has children in their teens early, she must be in her 40s. And he goes down to the promenade and he finds her surrounded by men. And he just says it, and you imagine she's got a parasol and there she is. And, you know, she's chatting with lots of nice young men, or maybe not young men, but maybe her age, who are also on holiday. And the seaside is a place where you can be much less restrained. So it's where, Weymouth is where Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax have their secret romance in Emma and contract their secret engagement. And it's not always a bad thing, you know, when Anne Elliot goes
46:54 Speaker 08 to Lyme Regis in, in Persuasion, even though it's November, she gets her bloom back. Because you go and take the air, don't you, at the seaside? You take the air. Yes. And this man, she doesn't know who it is, it turns out to be Mr. Elliot, her distant cousin, sees her by the seaside and looks at her in evident admiration, you know, because the sea airs kind of made the sap rise, I think we would say. So, and then Pride and Prejudice, when the dastardly Wickham wants to seduce Georgiana Darcy, Mr. Darcy's 16 year old sister, he gets her taken down to Ramsgate. Yes.
47:36 Speaker 08 Because she's vulnerable by the seaside, you know, not surrounded by your usual family, friends, conventions, where you can go, where you can't go. You wander around, flirtations more possible, and all sorts of shenanigans are more possible.
47:52 Kate Lister? And that's exactly why Elizabeth Bennet warned her father that it's dangerous to let Lydia go to Brighton.
47:58 Speaker 08 Yes, yes, yes, yes. She warns him and he says, oh, you know, she'll just flirt with the officers in the militia there, it'll all be fine.
48:05 Kate Lister? Which is a mad thing to say anyway.
48:07 Speaker 08 A mad thing to say. I mean, you know, Kate, I've got two daughters and none of them are going to Brighton without me.
48:13 Kate Lister? Right. I've just like, oh no, they'll, they'll just go have a bit of a flirt.
48:16 Speaker 08 Who knows what will happen.
48:18 Kate Lister? Oh, no. Oh, don't send your daughters to Brighton.
48:20 Speaker 08 Risky.
48:22 Kate Lister? As a final question, what do you think is the most erotic thing that Jane Austen has ever written or the rudest? I mean, because it's all, it's all below the surface, but is there any part for you that is like, yeah, there's no doubt what we're talking about there?
48:38 Speaker 08 I think those are two different things, the most erotic and the rudest.
48:42 Kate Lister? That's very true, actually. Yes.
48:44 Speaker 08 I think the most erotic, in a way, is not the things we've been talking about, which is, as it were, the sex between the lines that does go on in Jane Austen novels. I think, as it were, the throbbiest is in a way, ironically, the letter, the letter that Captain Wentworth writes to Anne Elliot, near the end of Persuasion. And he's in the same room as her, and it's a crowded room in an inn in Bath. And we and Anne, who rejected him, of course, eight years earlier, she's persuaded to say no to him, even though she loved him deeply. And now he's back again and she thinks he's going to marry somebody else.
49:26 Speaker 08 But slowly you become aware, as she becomes aware, that his old feelings for her were dormant and are coming back to life.
49:35 Kate Lister? Yep.
49:35 Speaker 08 And especially they come back to life when he sees her being apparently courted by Mr. Elliot, another man. Nothing like, Jane Austen is a connoisseur of jealousy. Jealousy is the great, you know, erotic blue touch paper, I think.
49:52 Kate Lister? Yeah.
49:52 Speaker 08 That's what gets men going. It's what gets Mr. Knightley going in Emma when he sees her flirting with Frank Churchill. And the climax of it all in Persuasion is they're in a crowded room and Anne Elliot is talking to Captain Wentworth's friend, Captain Harville, about whether whose love, whose feelings last longer, men's or women's. And because Captain Harville's friend, Captain Bennet, who was mourning his lost love who died, has now gone and got engaged to another woman, you know? He said he was inconsolable and now, you know, and Anne is saying, well, women's love lasts longest. And Captain Wentworth can hear this and he's writing a letter and he writes this
50:35 Speaker 08 letter saying, which he pushes over, he leaves and she reads it on her own and you read it with her, it's there in the novel. And it's an incredible letter. And the very fact it's a letter, but it's within the conventions and constraints of a letter makes it somehow in a very Jane Austen-y way, you know, even more throbby. Because we're not in Wuthering Heights, we're in a world of care and compliance and convention, but people are still human beings and their feelings are just as strong. And it says, you know, my heart is as much yours as ever it was. And he says that he's waiting for her response. And the last line is so full
51:17 Speaker 08 of erotic passion and it's all it says is, a word, a look will be enough.
51:25 Kate Lister? That is pretty throbby.
51:27 Speaker 08 I would say it's pretty throbby.
51:28 Kate Lister? I'd say so.
51:29 Speaker 08 And he's a this really sexy guy. He's clever, he's a war hero and he's out there waiting to see how she'll respond. And also, you know how true it is, a word, a look will be enough. He knows that the moment he sees her, and it'll be in the street with lots of people around, he will know as soon as he sees her, as soon as he looks into her eyes, whether she's on for it.
51:53 Kate Lister? Yeah, that's pretty hot. That is. Yep, I'd have to agree with that. What about the rudest thing that she's ever written? Did she write rude things?
52:01 Speaker 08 I think she gave some of her character some rude things. And the rudest is Mary Crawford in Bancefield Park, who's very, very worldly and knowing, and who has these terrible friends who are all sort of very posh, some of them with titles, and they all have second homes in Twickenham and Richmond, which is where you go to have affairs. And Twickenham, Mary Crawford's uncle, who looked after her when she was young, bought a villa in Twickenham for his mistress. You know, that's, Twickenham's very, very sinful. Not as bad as Brighton, obviously, but pretty sinful. And she says really sort of quite rude things sometimes.
52:42 Speaker 08 And she makes a famous rude joke about the navy. And she says, because her uncle was an admiral, she's talking about admirals, and then she says, of rears and vices, I will not comment. And then she says, I intend no pun. So she does intend a pun.
53:01 Kate Lister? Yes, she does. That's a booty joke, Jane Austen.
53:06 Speaker 08 That's naughty, isn't it?
53:07 Kate Lister? I love that. John, you have been so much fun to talk to. If people want to know more about you and your work, and more about Jane Austen's rudeness, where can they find you?
53:17 Speaker 08 Where can they find me? I have no online presence at the moment, but I am, I am musing it. I think I might start a little Jane Austen Substack one of these days. There's lots of me, I'm afraid, on the internet, giving talks about Jane Austen. And then there's my book, What Matters in Jane Austen, which is where lots of this stuff has its home.
53:39 Kate Lister? Thank you so much for coming to talk to me. You've been marvelous.
53:42 Speaker 08 It was a pleasure.
53:50 Kate Lister? Thank you for listening and thanks so much to John for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected] . Coming up, we are delving back into sex work through the ages and join us wherever you found us today. This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt and Sheeps, the history of sex scandal in society. A podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
54:33 Speaker 10 Granger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.
55:04 Speaker 11 Whoop. Sleep better, train smarter, recover faster and feel healthier. Understand and optimize your sleep. Get coaching and insights for every age, stage and cycle. Track over 140 habits. Get a 360 view of your training and workouts. Never miss a second of that with a wireless and waterproof charger. Expect all new features, all the time.
Previous Sex Work in Ancient Rome Next Medieval Sex Work Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated