The Medici vs. Tudor Rivalry

Neither woman expected to rule, but Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici became two of the most powerful women in Europe. Was their relationship a fierce rivalry or something more respectful? And how did they navigate the Mary Queen of Scots crisis? Joining Kate today is the fantastic historian and author Estelle Paranque to help us get to know these two women. This episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie, and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 0:53Speaker 02

  It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 0:57Speaker 03

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  In Our Time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.

• 1:11Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely Batwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. This is Batwixter Sheets. We are a naughty, spicy historical podcast. And because of all of that, I have to tell you, even though I'm sure you know, I'm absolutely sure that you all know this by now, but this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults, about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. Are we all adults? Yes, I think we are all adults, although if any kids have snuck in, be off with you. Go away. We don't want you around here. Right, for the rest of you, let's crack on.

• 1:47Kate Lister?

  16th century Europe was a wild time for many, well, frankly, ridiculous reasons. I mean, it was just a bonkers place to be. And yet, at one time, there were two women holding the most powerful seats in Europe. And that is pretty remarkable when you think about it. These two women were, of course, Elizabeth I, Lizzie, as I like to call her, and Catherine de Medici. Or Cath. Yes, podes, I see you. Cathy wasn't really technically a queen. I know, we know. But, boy, did she wield some serious power. And how did these two women see each other? Was this rivalry or respect? And how did the rest of Europe see them? Well, we are going to head back to the 16th century to find out more.

• 2:55Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. What makes the lives of Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici all the more fascinating is that neither of them expected to rule. They kind of just ended up in positions of enormous power and influence. But how did their lives really compare? What did they want from one another? How did they handle various political crises? I.e. Mary, Queen of Scots. Hmm. Well, joining me today is the author and historian and friend of the show, the always fabulous Estelle Perrinck, and she is going to help us get to know these two women a little bit better. And whilst I'm here, I wanted to let you know about the two Betwixt the Sheets live shows that are happening in May, one in Edinburgh and one in London.

• 3:40Kate Lister?

  And tickets are available now at fain.co.uk. Just search for Betwixt the Sheets and I'd love to see you there in May. Septus are the ready, everybody. Let's do this.

• 3:57Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Estelle Perrinck. How are you doing?

• 4:03Speaker 04

  I'm very good, Kate. How are you?

• 4:04Kate Lister?

  I'm so pleased that you're back. That's how I am. We always have so much fun. But I think that you've set the bar very, very high with your Habsburg one and your weirdest menagee toire in history one. Like, how are we going to make this? Because this seems like quite a serious subject, this one. The relationship between Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici, like the weirdest penpal relationship.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  I think there is lots to unpack as well about these two women, how much they have in common, their relationship towards sex as well. Like, it's so different. You have the virgin, you have the widow. Mother, you know, it's it's they're they're so different and at the same time, we know that Catherine had a ménage à trois, you know, we we know that she had to put up with a real mistress, you know, like Diane de Poitiers. And I think that sometimes when she wrote letters to Elizabeth, she was kind of funny. And the thing she was saying, you know, you could almost imagine like Elizabeth reading some of the letters and say, yeah, right, as if I wanted to be you.

• 5:06Kate Lister?

  I got it. Weird letters to get. Absolutely. But like, let's take it back before we even get to the weird letters. They were mates, right? They were like, like what pen pals? Like, like when you're at school, you get a pen pal in France. And if you're in France, maybe you get one in England. Is that what happens?

• 5:22Speaker 04

  I mean, that's a funny way of seeing this. I mean, yes, I mean, I think that what we have to understand that we have Elizabeth the first Tudor queen who ruled on her own for forty four years, so from fifteen fifteen to sixteen oh three. And you have Catherine de Medici, whose life is also so unpredictable, a bit like Elizabeth, because let's remember Elizabeth was not meant to be queen. I mean, she was in line, but you know, she should not have ruled really. Edward the sixth should have ruled. He should have had heirs. You know, she she would just have been a Tudor princess in the background.

• 5:56Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  Maybe we would not even be talking about her, right? Do you see what I mean?

• 6:00Kate Lister?

  Yeah, both of them, it was, it wasn't a sure thing that they were going to be queen and definitely not with Catherine de Medici. She sort of enter stage left.

• 6:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, so you have the bastard with Elizabeth also, and and then you have the orphan with Catherine de Medici. And I think what's so interesting is that with Catherine de Medici, obviously the orphan, then she becomes Princess of France, then she becomes heir apparent to the throne with her husband Henry, then she becomes Queen Consort, but it's not her time to shine. She's still very much overshadowed by her biggest rival, Jeanne de Poitiers. Then he died. And then she becomes Queen Mother to Francis the Second. But even then, you know, so there's Francis the Second and Mary Stuart, another interesting relationship here. And she's in the background, she's trying, she becomes an advisor, she's in the Privy Council, but she's she's still not, you know, holding to power. And fifteen sixty.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Therefore Francis the Second, then we have a son who's nine year old who becomes king Charles the Ninth. And she's like, now it's my time. And so you have a queen regent in all that name. Like what she had to do to get to that position is quite interesting as well. How she had to manipulate and play with men and their ambitions and everything. But then she's ruling with him and to a point that even when he's of age, you know, a twelve years old, he's of age. He's crowned and everything and then he's saying, basically saying mommy is still ruling for me. And it's funny, got to do is like, you know, almost twenty and he's like, well, actually, mom, I would like to rule as well.

• 7:36Speaker 04

  And and she's making a bit of space for him. And that's where you have the relationship with Elizabeth like starting. So you have on the English throne, a virgin, they, you know.

• 7:47Kate Lister?

  Allegedly.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  Ruling on her own, someone you want her to get married, you know, like there's this fascination with Elizabeth the first because she didn't marry. And Catherine does not get it. She doesn't get it. It's so funny. In her letters, she's literally writing to Elizabeth and she's like. I'm paraphrasing here. Obviously, she didn't see it that way, but in her letters, she's like, what are you doing, mate? You're women. Women are supposed to be mothers. What are you doing? Why? Why aren't you having kids? Because, you know, like women, you know, when we talk about how women are pressured, you know, uh, in their thirties and their forties. You know, I think at whatever age, if we don't have kids, uh, you know, I I have kids, but even when I, you know, when I was in my early thirties, people were like.

• 8:30Kate Lister?

  TikTok, TikTok, TikTok.

• 8:32Speaker 04

  First of all, it's a personal choice, isn't it?

• 8:34Kate Lister?

  Yeah, fuck off.

• 8:36Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 8:37Kate Lister?

  Fuck all the way off. And then when you get there, fuck off some more. Sorry, it's a personal, it's all right. That that went somewhere quite personal there. Apologize, listeners. I'm very sorry.

• 8:47Speaker 04

  Well, Kate, you're right. I think you like.

• 8:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah, I am right.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  And that pressure has always been here. And Elizabeth is the first woman to say to fuck off.

• 8:56Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 04

  And I love her for this. I love her for being like so much in charge, not only of her body, of her life. And she says it, I mean, for crying out loud, you have a queen who says to parliament, who are like two hundred men. And she said, my body, my choice. We're in fucking fifteen hundreds. That's insane. That's amazing. You know, we haven't done anything. Exactly. You know what I think is interesting is that we think that the pressure comes from men and I disagree. I, I mean.

• 9:25Kate Lister?

  Still, I guess, yes.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  It might be, it might be, but I disagree. It's really from other women judging each other. You're a woman who doesn't have kids, you're a judge. You're a woman who has kids, how are you raising your kids? How many kids do you have? How many, what are you doing? Are you having a career as well? Do you want, what do you want? A career with babies? And so it's so interesting that these, we have so much to learn from these women, the, these two women, like Catherine Medici, Elizabeth. But for Catherine, she is pressuring Elizabeth, even in the letter she's writing, like, there's no, where a pleasure than, than being a mother, right? To a son, obviously gay, because obviously to a daughter would be a disaster.

• 10:01Kate Lister?

  That's awful.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  But yeah, I was reading that letter and I was like, oh Catherine, if that's your biggest pleasure, honestly.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  Maybe another one.

• 10:10Kate Lister?

  It's, it's like, it's, women are very judgy. They're hella judgy about other women and other women's choices. And particularly other women's choices under the patriarchy when they're rather constrained. But it's as, is always the case. It's like, is this a thread you really want to pick out? Because Catherine de Medici, she is not the poster girl for a happy marriage. She's not the poster girl for like, oh, wouldn't you like some of this, Elizabeth? Wouldn't, isn't this just like the best? The best setup. Get yourself one of these.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  I mean, first, you're right. And you know, like, you, you touch a very interesting point because Elizabeth, she doesn't say it directly in letters to Catherine. But she said it to the French ambassador and she says it many times and it's a dig at Catherine. She said, I do not want to be with someone because I'm queen. I want to be loved for the woman I am. And that's very modern, isn't it? And it's a dig at Catherine. I honestly don't know. I mean, it, in a way, it's, it's in the French ambassador's report, so she must have read them, right? But it's like a punch in your facing, like. What you've just said, you're not really the poster girl for a very happy marriage. I don't really want to be to end up with a man who's then, you know, putting his role mistress

• 11:23Speaker 04

  in the forefront of everything. I don't want to be cheated on. I don't want to be humiliated. There would have been a massive difference though, because Elizabeth of the Regnant Queen is not a queen cancer, right?

• 11:33Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  I don't know how much she would have allowed any husband to go down that road, right? You know, Catherine had no choice, absolutely no, no agency.

• 11:43Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  Elizabeth had a bit more. But you know, there's another thing that I think we don't talk enough about is the fact that giving birth, you can die.

• 11:53Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  And Catherine had ten pregnancies. I don't know how she managed.

• 11:58Kate Lister?

  Ten pregnancies?

• 12:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or nine, and she had twins, but like, it's still a lot. And it's like, what honour were you doing?

• 12:07Kate Lister?

  I think that I've probably allowed us to get a little bit ahead of ourselves. We should probably take a couple of steps back for anyone who's listening, who didn't catch the Catherine de Medici episode that we did, because there'll be people listening to this going, what, what, what's happened? What's happened? Give us a quick lowdown of Catherine de Medici's marriage and the glaring issues with it. And then perhaps they'll understand why it's particularly odd that she's writing to Elizabeth going, God, you should get one of these. This is ace.

• 12:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. And also, you know, it's really the virgin versus the widow. It's really the virgin versus the mother. And that's actually, that's a beautiful, that's actually a letter, an exchange letter. So you have Catherine saying, you know, the most beautiful thing is to become a mother there. And she basically says that power comes through motherhood. It is true for Catherine.

• 12:51Kate Lister?

  Yeah, that is true. She's the mum to a king. She, that is true.

• 12:55Speaker 04

  But Elizabeth replied, I'm the daughter of a king. My power comes from me. I don't need. You see what I mean? Again, like, it's, it's, and I think that's such an interesting relationship because you have two women who are so different, but so similar. In terms of their personalities, it's again, it's so funny, in the French ambassador's report, he says that he wished that the two women had met because he's sure that they would have become friends. You know, and he knew them personally, you know, he met them personally, like in in life, um, in real life, you know, you know, I was going to make a joke online, obviously, it's in sixteenth century.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  You know, writing letters, like what what kind of image you have of a person, it's it's so different, I think. It shows you how the importance of the words and the words create images, representations of people. And then you create your own, you know, idea of someone through the letters. But here, this man who spent time with Elizabeth, seven years in England, and then who spent lots of time at the French court with Catherine, he said that he really thought that these two women would have been friends. My understanding of those two through the letters and through their words, I do agree with what he's saying. I can see how. At the same time, there's a very different type of, like, the similarities is in their boldness, is the fact that they're very powerful, is the fact that they kind of shake

• 14:20Speaker 04

  uh, the patriarchy, but in different ways. Elizabeth, through being alone, being, you know, maybe we can talk about was she a virgin? I mean, how ridiculous is that idea?

• 14:33Speaker 04

  No, I think we need to talk about, no, but people don't get it, you know? I used to teach in higher education, like I taught for fifteen years. And students have a very hard time understanding that the Virgin Queen, the myth and the the propaganda around the Virgin Queen is fifteen eighties. It's not before. And that's because, you you know, marriage negotiations are not going to happen anymore, so she steps into that. But before that, it was, you know, you don't want to look at someone that you can't touch or like that you can't have a relationship with, otherwise what's the point of marrying, right? And and so, and and we can talk as well about a lot of rumors. I mean, in the French, the French ambassadors, for me, are much more neutral

• 15:17Speaker 04

  in the way they represent things, especially Bertrand Salignac de la mode Fennelon, because he was someone who spent a lot of time with Elizabeth. And he was really reporting like everything he was seeing. And what he saw and the rumours he he heard was that Robert Dudley, you know, Earl of Leicester, was leaving the private

• 15:36Kate Lister?

  Duders.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  At four AM in the morning.

• 15:39Kate Lister?

  Oh, come on.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  Exactly. Do you play chess in your four AM? Do you play card?

• 15:45Kate Lister?

  Do you? There's no man's ever come out of my room at four AM for completely wholesome reasons. Apart from Santa, perhaps.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  I'm Santa.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  I'm sure he left some.

• 15:59Kate Lister?

  I'm sure he did. I'm sure he did.

• 16:08Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Estelle after this short break.

• 16:18Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixter Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right. It took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 17:00Kate Lister?

  Before we get to dropping the Dudley bomb, can we get a little bit of tea on Catherine de Medici? Because she married, what was his name? King?

• 17:08Speaker 04

  Henry the Second.

• 17:08Kate Lister?

  Thank you.

• 17:09Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:10Kate Lister?

  But he, his mistress, who was 20 years older than him, Diane de Poitiers, was basically already there. She was like installed as this mistress and did not go gracefully. And it was a whole mess.

• 17:22Speaker 04

  It was a whole mess because she was the lover, she was everything. I mean, for, I mean, is it 10 years? It's almost, yes, it's almost 10 years of marriage where there's nothing happening.

• 17:34Kate Lister?

  He's not shugging his wife, is he? He's shugging Diane.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I mean. I can't remember if I told you that story in the other, in the other episode we did, so forgive me, I'm gonna repeat myself here, but I think it's one that is kind of shocking. Is, so obviously there was a problem that, you know, she was not pregnant. And she was starting wondering what was going on and Diana accepted to help her because there were rumours of a potential divorce. Between, or annulment, you know, there's no divorce, it's no annulment. And she didn't really want to take the risk of Henry the Second finding someone else who's more attractive. You know, put, you know, potentially fall in love with someone. So she really liked having Catherine Mijic. I think she was in control of her, you know, much younger.

• 18:17Kate Lister?

  Better than devil, you know, right?

• 18:18Speaker 04

  Unexperienced, often, you know, like she, she was not a threat. You think, right? I mean, I mean, I've, I've found it funny, but she, she agreed to help her. And what broke my heart is that when Catherine Mijic was basically asked to look at what was going on, because why would it work with her? And when she looked, i- it's true, like it's historically accurate. She, she looked into her hole, like to see what was going on when he was having sexual relations with Diane. And she said, he's not doing that to me. And here it blew my mind, like, what is he doing to you?

• 18:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah, what is he doing to you?

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Is he giving you a squeeze? What is he doing that is like?

• 18:56Kate Lister?

  So we get, we get, it's so weird. I mean, it's weird situation where Diane then helps them to have sex, joins them in the bedroom.

• 19:02Speaker 04

  Exactly. She prepares Henry and he finishes in Catherine. I mean, again, that, I think.

• 19:08Kate Lister?

  It's so good for your ego, that, isn't it? That would just absolutely, you'd be on cloud nine with that.

• 19:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, so hurtful.

• 19:16Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  So humiliating. It's not a threesome where she's, I mean, there's no report.

• 19:20Kate Lister?

  Part of it, no, no.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  You know, she's not, no, they, they're having pleasure. And then when he's going to climax, she has to open her legs and he comes in. That's.

• 19:29Kate Lister?

  She's just a semen socket. That's what she is.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  It reminded me of Handmaid's Tale or something like, you know.

• 19:34Kate Lister?

  Yes, it does. Yes. It's fucking weird is what it is, a tale.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  It's horrible. It's horrible. You're using someone else's body. And you know, when we talk about consent here, where is the consent? Because you're consenting to, what are you consenting to? I mean, I think that's just a, a fine line here, because like, you want to have a dynasty, you want to have children.

• 19:53Kate Lister?

  It's like, it's like your tissue, just, just being ejaculated into and thrown away.

• 19:58Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly. And they did that a lot to.

• 20:03Kate Lister?

  What?

• 20:06Speaker 04

  I mean, I wasn't there.

• 20:07Kate Lister?

  Poor Catherine, come on.

• 20:09Speaker 04

  I think everything now is is making sense for, you know, anyone who's listening to us thinking like, yeah, now we understand what Catherine is saying, like, she should get married to Elizabeth Elizabeth. But Elizabeth might not have known this type of details, not the details that you would have read.

• 20:23Kate Lister?

  When did they start writing to one another? Because you said they never actually met and people said it's a great shame because they would have been really good buds. But when did they even start writing? Whose idea was it?

• 20:34Speaker 04

  So basically, you have Elizabeth becoming Queen of fifteen fifty eight, well, seventeen November, Mary the first died, Elizabeth is Queen. Then the first letter comes from Henry the second, he's still alive, I think it's before the coronation of Elizabeth or just after, so January, February fifteen fifty nine. And then there's Catherine who said that she wanted to write a letter as well. You know, it's funny, it's a bit like, I exist too.

• 20:57Kate Lister?

  Oh, yeah, okay.

• 20:59Speaker 04

  So she sent a letter. I don't think Elizabeth even replied to her.

• 21:03Kate Lister?

  She gets a lot of letters. She gets a lot of letters.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  What the fuck are you? Like, you're the wife of a king. Like, I don't care about you.

• 21:09Kate Lister?

  She left her on read, as the kids would say.

• 21:14Speaker 04

  The worst part, right? The worst thing that could have happened to you. Yeah, well, to be fair, Catherine didn't really like it. Then when Francis the second became king, there's still not an established, you know, correspondence between the two. It's really when, basically it was when Charles the ninth, it's going to become, and then there's going to be what I call the Queen's War. So that it's very, I mean, it's not very short. You have the first religious civil war in France in fifteen sixty two.

• 21:46Speaker 04

  And you have, so what is the French religious civil war? It's basically you have people in France who are becoming Protestants. They really are daring to the new reformed ideas.

• 21:57Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 21:57Speaker 04

  And you're going to have battles between cities. So it's very strange because usually reformation comes from the top, right? The king or the queen changes the religion and unfolds it. Here, it's like down to, they try to do down to bottom. It doesn't work because France is going to remain Catholic. But it means that you have more bloodshed in many ways. And the first religious civil war is you have the Huguenots, the French, we call them the Huguenots, but they're the French Protestants. All they're asking is is for the right, uh, freedom to worship. But France is a very hard Catholic country. There's gonna be later on the ultra Catholic league and it's with the Gizeys, Mary Stuart's family.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  And they're gonna lead all these little wars anyway. The Gizeys are always involved when there's a problem, always. You know, second half, sixteenth century, they're always, they're always one. And here what's for me interesting is that the Yuguenos, the leader of the Yuguenos is going to ask for Elizabeth for help. And she's gonna make the big mistake to send men and money. And they're gonna arrive in the north of France to um Le Havre. And also she's trying desperately to get back Calais, right? She she really wants Calais back.

• 23:11Kate Lister?

  They're always losing Calais, the children.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, Mary Stuart, uh, Mary Stuart, Mary, Mary the first, sorry, lost Calais in fifteen fifty seven, fifteen fifty eight. So that's something that they really want back. And so what happens is that she gives money and men, so Elizabeth supports the the Protestants the in France. And Catherine does something that Elizabeth didn't see coming. So they captured the English and the Protestant capture New Heaven, Le Havre. And Elizabeth say, we can exchange the cities. You give me back Calais, I'll give you back Le Havre. I remove my troops and then you can do whatever you want with the Protestants. Catherine goes to the French leader, Protestant leader, the French Yuguen leader. And she says, what is it more important, to be Protestant or to be French?

• 23:56Speaker 04

  We will forgive everything for you. We will give you freedom of worship in two or three cities, you know, three or main cities, Protestant cities.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  But you have to turn on the English.

• 24:08Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  So what happened was, he agreed.

• 24:12Kate Lister?

  Of course.

• 24:12Speaker 04

  Catherine sent the force, the French forces, the royal forces to Le Havre. Elizabeth thinks that, you know, they can fight the the Englishmen or with the French Protestants. But the French Protestants turn on them. It's a massacre.

• 24:24Kate Lister?

  And after that, they were the best of friends, like what?

• 24:27Speaker 04

  That's the thing, Kate, is like, so she lost. She lost that war and it's gonna be more complicated, like, English ambassadors are gonna be very badly treated. Uh, they're gonna be assent, it's not prison, but it is a prison. Catherine is playing mind games and and she's really showing extreme intelligence. But now, you do remember, Elizabeth kind of like dismissed her, kind of underestimated her. But listen to her, because I think it's so interesting to understand the relationship is the fact that then once Catherine won that Queen's War, then Elizabeth never makes the same mistake twice. So she'll never, ever again underestimate Catherine.

• 25:08Speaker 04

  She'll always be very cautious, she'll never send money back to the French parties and she'll never get involved in any religious wars. She's gonna try to help sometimes, maybe sometimes with money, but definitely not with men. She's never gonna try to be involved in the French religious wars. She's gonna stop underestimating Catherine. Catherine makes then the mistake of underestimating Elizabeth. So then for Catherine, she sees Elizabeth as being someone very weak, who played a game that she couldn't play. She's like, you know, babe, everything is forgiven, so we're fifteen sixty-four. And then she's like, I have a son, you should marry him.

• 25:40Kate Lister?

  It's so weird though, like, how'd you go from like, we're at war, and then Catherine does this sneaky like manoeuvre and Elizabeth gets humiliated? And then you just, and they're like, let's be pen pals. Like, that's, unless Elizabeth was writing to her going, you cow, fuck off, I hate you. That's, that, like, it's so, that, it's such a weird pivot.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  I think it's what you do, you play with the, you know, you're in a world where every decision has a consequence.

• 26:07Kate Lister?

  It's diplomacy, isn't it? That's why I'd be terrible at diplomacy, I'd be awful.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  Oh, me too. And, and, I, you know, you have to be so careful, it's about your country, it's about your people, it's about safety. And here, what Elizabeth saw is like, an opportunity. And think about it, the negotiations, Catherine de Medje is gonna push in Elizabeth's arms, not one, not two, three sons. So we have fifteen sixty-four, fifteen sixty-five, the first kind of negotiation, it goes nowhere, she's playing with them. Then she renewed that again in fifteen sixty-seven, sixty-eight, saying, are you sure you don't want to marry Charles? He's lovely. She's like, no, no, thank you. Then in seventy seventy-one, she goes with her second son, Henry. And

• 26:57Speaker 04

  He's very handsome and Elizabeth said that he's just like he's he's he's gorgeous and he was. But Henry was gonna be Henry the third says publicly, I will never marry this public whore. Talking about Elizabeth.

• 27:10Kate Lister?

  Oh, well, that's not very nice.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  That's not nice at all. And from seventy one, she then pushed pushed the last one, Francis. El- Elizabeth made them believe until fifteen eighty one, eighty two, eighty three. That she will do it. I mean, can you imagine like making a man believe that you're gonna marry him? For over ten years.

• 27:34Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Can we give her credit here? And she does it because as long as there are marriage negotiations, I mean, what does it mean? It means peace. It means that.

• 27:42Kate Lister?

  Yeah, she's got something they want. Yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 04

  So she gets the be- the the best of both worlds. She's not married, still in charge. But it's almost as if she has an alliance with France because they're trying to to woo her. And that's where Catherine gets so pissed off in the end. Because she's like, oh, my God, all these bloody years.

• 28:03Kate Lister?

  Stringing us along.

• 28:04Speaker 04

  Like a fiddle.

• 28:06Kate Lister?

  In a in a situationship, three times, I think not.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, that is insane. And that's a relationship between the widow and the virgin. I've always said it, you know, I wrote a book on on Elizabeth and Catherine Bluff and Gold, and I just say that it's basically Catherine wooing the Virgin Queen, right?

• 28:23Kate Lister?

  What kind of things they write to each other about? Like, what's what's like a letter between Elizabeth the first and Catherine de Medici? Like, what kind of stuff do they talk about? Apart from apart from marry my son, he's great.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  Mostly it is about marry my son because. Power is about motherhood and then you have Elizabeth replying, power is about power.

• 28:43Kate Lister?

  Oh, it makes a bit more sense now why she's pushing this marriage idea and that you should have babies.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  It's so funny because Catherine is like, so in fifteen sixty, what is it, sixty six, sixty seven, you have Mary Stuart giving birth to her son.

• 28:56Kate Lister?

  Forgotten about her.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  And yeah, I wish.

• 28:59Kate Lister?

  We'll get to her. We'll get to her.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  I wish I could forget about her, but I can't, I work on her. You have Catherine saying, you don't want your cousin to have an heir and you don't have anything. You know, she's playing on some bit kind of jealousy and pitting against one another two women. And Elizabeth's like, no, I'm very happy for Mary to to do whatever she wants to do. But the thing is with Elizabeth that she never, she says power comes from power. But she never says, no, no, no, right? She says, maybe, yeah, maybe one day. And then she says, can can Francis, your son, can he come, the Duke of Anjou, can he come and see me? Yeah. So in fifteen seventy nine, he goes to England. He goes twice, fifteen seventy nine, fifteen eighty one.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  And they have time of their life. Honestly, you look at the records, I think, you know, people ask me, do you think she loved him? No, I don't think she loved him.

• 29:48Kate Lister?

  Well, wasn't wasn't he the one that liked to dress up in in ladies dresses and have a dance about?

• 29:52Speaker 04

  That's not true.

• 29:53Kate Lister?

  That's not true.

• 29:53Speaker 04

  Like, also, like, you know, you do have a bit, Henry the Third was a bit effeminate, he liked pearls. But after that, it's really propaganda against the Valois dynasty. So like saying that these men were not warriors, they were not strong enough, so obviously they're feminists, obviously they're homosexuals, all this, but it's not true. And um, he might have been a bit, you know, effeminate in a way, you know, I think as soon as a man loves a theatre, loves the arts, loves poetry.

• 30:20Kate Lister?

  And it's all the proof that we need, quite frankly.

• 30:22Speaker 04

  And what's so funny is that people are like, but I think she loved him. I don't think she loved him. I think she got on with him really well. I think it was fun to be around. I think he made a laugh. We have lots of records of saying that they spent a lot of time together. And there's that story, I I don't know if you heard about this one, but it's one of my favourite story about Elizabeth the first and the Duke of Anjou, Francis. Is that, you know, they have this huge party, so they're partying, partying, partying. And Elizabeth gets drunk. I mean, honestly, there's no way she was not drunk. And she, in front of everyone, you know, there's still everyone at the party and in front of everyone, she's like, I'll marry you, Francis. And she said, and to prove it to you, I'm giving you one of my rings. So she gives him a ring.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  And you know, she said, I'll, I'll marry you. I will marry you. I, I am declaring it in front of her. You know, can you imagine like, I'm declaring.

• 31:13Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 04

  He's so happy. He's so happy. Maybe less drunk as well. He's so happy, though he's French, maybe not. Anyway. And we move on. And then the next day, she's like, oh, yeah, um, about last night. Uh, I didn't mean that. You can keep the ring, but um, you know, like, you know, can you see the hangover?

• 31:34Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 04

  And then he lost the plot. And he said, if you do not marry me, I will show everyone, everyone, the letters you wrote to me.

• 31:44Kate Lister?

  Uh oh.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  And she looks, oh shit, and she's like, do not do this. You cannot do this. It's our private letters. We've never found these private letters, Kate. But I was like, when I was reading that source, I was like, I want to know what you're talking.

• 31:57Kate Lister?

  We all wanna know now. Wow. What was the Tudor equivalent of an aubergine?

• 32:09Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I mean, I mean, she must have been so blunt and so. I don't know, like, I feel, and that's a story I love because obviously he got very upset. He never, he never showed the letters in the end. But I think he was really hurt because he really, you know, you know, it's not usual that you, you do not see one another, you know, a, a dynastic alliance. You do not see one another and he spent so much time there and he went twice and he really thought that, you know, that's.

• 32:36Kate Lister?

  She's really playing him.

• 32:38Speaker 04

  Oh, I think she was playing Catherine.

• 32:41Kate Lister?

  I think she probably was, wouldn't she?

• 32:50Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with a spell after this short break.

• 32:57Kate Lister?

  Hello Betwixters, I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixter Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 33:40Kate Lister?

  This is a good time to bring in Mary Queen of Scots because something else both Elizabeth and Catherine de Medici could bond over is the fact that they quite clearly did not like Mary Queen of Scots. She was a massive pain in the ass to both of them.

• 33:52Speaker 04

  So that's interesting that you mention that because again, it's a bit more complex. I mean, you're right. I mean, they did bond over that, but in a different way. Now let me explain to you. You remember when I told you about the Queen's War in 1562, 1563, 64? You know, when you asked me like, how do you become friends with someone who's betrayed you that way?

• 34:14Kate Lister?

  Yeah, you find someone you hate more. Oh, look, perfect.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  What they were fearing was that before Mary Stuart was deciding to marry Henry Stuart Lord Darnley, her second husband, who was awful, she was actually on marriage negotiations with Philip the Second's son, Don Carlos. And when Catherine de Medici and Elizabeth the First learned that, they were like, we need... To coordinate together to make sure that this marriage negotiation fail. Because the last thing we want is an alliance between Philip the Second's son and Mary, Queen of Scots in Scotland. That's not, that's not good for France, that's not good for England. So the center and voice and Catherine is throwing like one of her daughters is not gonna work, but she's throwing another daughter in the mix. So you should marry my daughter, you know.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  And and obviously, you know, she's using her own daughter who's Queen of Spain to try to destroy all of this. So you have here really something incredible that's happening where they're doing all they can to prevent this alliance. And Mary Stuart really disrespected Catherine de Medici when she was in France, mostly because Mary Stuart, and something that most people don't know is that she was friends with Diane de Poitiers because Diane de Poitiers was a friend of the Guise family.

• 35:31Kate Lister?

  Diane de Poitiers, the Queen's sex helper with her husband, that one, yes.

• 35:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, the mistress, the royal mistress. So Mary Stuart really loved Diane. And so obviously then if you are very close to Diane, you're gonna be an enemy of Catherine. Do you see what I mean? Like, it's not gonna work, it's not gonna work.

• 35:48Kate Lister?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 04

  So, and obviously with Elizabeth, that was another problem. Mary Stuart did not recognize Elizabeth's legitimacy on the English throne. It's not that I'm trying to defend Mary, I'm not trying to defend Mary, I'm a team Elizabeth, but let's. From her point of view, if you're Catholic, you do not recognize Anne Boleyn's marriage, you know, to Anne of Rethy. It's simple as that. You can't recognize it. However, I said that, but it's funny that the French royal family did recognize it. They recognized Elizabeth on the throne, they accepted her on the throne. When Henry the Second sent a letter to Elizabeth, he was, he's recognizing her as Queen of England. So that's a bit weird that Mary is just like, I think it's because Mary was like, I should be on the throne. I should be on the throne.

• 36:29Kate Lister?

  That's not the best attitude, that, is it, to, you know, to make friends and win influence now.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  And so she really annoyed them with everything and then she's gonna, you know, everything she's gonna do, then she's gonna, you know, there's the, obviously the murder of her husband, Lord Dunley later on, and it, it, it, it's a massive scandal. It's a hot, yeah, she feels that way.

• 36:51Kate Lister?

  Yeah, messy bitch.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  And poor Catherine, she's a Guise. And as much as Ca- Catherine fears the Guises and she doesn't know really how to handle them, so she doesn't, but she, she doesn't really like them. But she envies their unity. They're so united, like it's it's incredible, actually. But she so there's all these things going on.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  But you're right. So what's gonna link Elizabeth and Catherine for a long time? It's not just the marriage proposal, it's the fact that they don't like Mary Stuart and they want to kind of counter her influence.

• 37:25Kate Lister?

  What does it sound like when they're slagging her off? I'd love to know, like, what kind of language are they are they using? Are they just, do they just absolutely go for it? Or is it much more couched and sort of diplomatic?

• 37:36Speaker 04

  It's much more careful. It's much more careful. Also, like, I don't think Catherine de Medje would have ever taken the risk to write anything bad about Mary.

• 37:47Kate Lister?

  Much, much smarter than I am.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  You would have done the same, Kate, if your life could have been in danger.

• 37:53Kate Lister?

  No, I would. First hint that I was allowed to, I'd be writing it down piece by piece. Absolute trollop. What a slag bag. I hate her. I'm queen.

• 38:04Kate Lister?

  And that that's why that's why I'm not a queen and I wouldn't have lasted very long because I'm I'm not that. I'm not smart enough to do it.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  It requires a lot. Yeah, I think it requires almost like a double life, right? Where you you must have like people that you confide into. And then, you know, you have to play that game. So they don't really slag her off, but it's very clear that they both do not. They they do not say it that way, but they do imply that she's not very smart, which is a very big mistake. Because Mary Stuart is very, very smart. She wants people to think she's not. But I'm working on her coded letters and she is incredibly smart.

• 38:43Kate Lister?

  Oh, really?

• 38:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's a bit funny that they have this idea that she's so not there, a bit stupid. And she, but you know, I tend to think that Elizabeth must have thought more, that there was something more. Because at the end of the day, Mary managed to survive. And well, so you have to look at how many men were so devoted to her. You don't you don't just devoted for beauty. Come on, I do not believe that. You have to inspire them as well, as a leader, and nothing she had that as well.

• 39:13Kate Lister?

  Wow. Okay, so they're united in this sort of like just, we're not really gonna slag her off, but we're quite clearly a bit, a bit sneery about, oh gosh, stupid woman, that kind of level of intrigue. But I'm just curious, like, what's this, how long did this pen pal relationship last for? Because it must have eventually got past twenty years.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  No, so we're about, it started in sixty, in fifteen sixty, sixty one, when Mary Stuart is executed. Catherine the Medici is shocked and she thinks that Elizabeth went too far.

• 39:49Kate Lister?

  She just writes to her, just what the fuck, WTF?

• 39:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, like WTF, what on earth have you done? Do you think you're better than any one of us? After that, there are definitely no more.

• 40:00Kate Lister?

  Oh, that brought an end to it. Wow.

• 40:02Speaker 04

  It's someone who ends up at the English court and Elizabeth sent her back. And she's saying something about, you know, how she no longer needs her or something like it. It's so condescending and you can see that the diplomatic relations has completely broken off between the two. And it lasts between, almost like, almost thirty years, almost thirty years. It ends in fifteen eighty seven for sure.

• 40:25Kate Lister?

  That would have been, I'm guessing here, but that, that would have been because Mary, Queen of Scots was a queen and you don't execute a queen, no matter how much we don't like her.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Also, it's not just that, okay, it's the fact that by doing that, Elizabeth created even more problems for the French because the French king was saying, they were, they were saying that the French king was not strong enough. So Henry III was not strong enough to deliver Mary. So the Guises had now so much power in France. So the execution of Mary Stuart is in fifteen eighty seven, eighth February fifteen eighty seven. The Guises then march on Paris and take Paris. The king and the, and the queen mother have to flee.

• 41:07Kate Lister?

  Shit.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  So yeah, it's, I think there's this kind of anger as well of like, you make us look so shit, women, like, you know, there's also this like, and I think it is the shock as well of thinking that Elizabeth might think that she's better than everyone else. There's something else as well, okay, there's something else going on, I'm gonna tell you what it is.

• 41:25Kate Lister?

  Tell me.

• 41:26Speaker 04

  It's the fact that. Not many people knew that and it was a massive surprise when I found out about this in my own research for my PhD. But Elizabeth had a secret relationship, friendship with Henry the Third of France. So the king of France, so Catherine de Medici's son, and he hid it from his mother. Because what he realised, he realised Elizabeth was telling Henry the Third, your enemies and my enemies are the same. They are the Guises and Mary Stuart. They do not want just England's crown, they want France's crown, they wanted three crowns, Scotland, England and France. And she's, and, and he finally realised that it was not about religion. He finally realised that the Guises would always start a new war.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  He tried so hard to find compromises between the Protestants and the Catholics. You know, all the edicts of pacification, he worked so hard on them. Catherine de Medici as well, to be fair. And each time they were ruined by the Guises, by the ultra Catholic. And that's not because they didn't like, it's because they could take power from, you know, they really thought that they could take power. And they wanted to eradicate Protestantism, that's another thing. But it's also because they wanted three crowns. So the goal was to free Mary, to put her on the, on the English crown. To then overthrow Henry the Third, to overthrow Catherine de Medici and take the French crown. And so by executing Mary, even Hen- Henry, Henry the Third didn't say anything, really.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  He, he said he was sorry for his former, you know, sister-in-law and you, you, there was all this procession in Paris, feeling very sorry, very sad. He was mourning her, all of this. But in private, he was telling Elizabeth, I now see what you're saying, I, I know you're right, the Guises are after me, what am I gonna do? You know, and then she is advising him. And then he, he has to flee Paris and he, and she's telling him to go back. And she said like, steps in the sunshine, you're a king. It, it, actually, the letters at the moment is, is, it, it is incredible. And then he's not gonna listen to her and he's gonna order the assassination of Mary Stuart's cousins in December fifteen eighty-eight. And Elizabeth was like, oh my god, what have you done?

• 43:32Speaker 04

  She said, yes, I executed Mary Stuart, but you, what you've done is order the assassination. She said Mary Stuart had a trial, the Guises didn't have a trial. She said now it's the end of you, and she was right, he was going to be assassinated himself a few months later. So do you see what I mean, it's all the politics and, and Catherine de Medici in the, in the middle of it. I think she felt jealous that Henry the Third. He was her favourite son and he was listening more to another woman than her.

• 44:01Kate Lister?

  I see.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  She really resented Elizabeth for that.

• 44:04Kate Lister?

  I see.

• 44:05Speaker 04

  And I think she resented that Elizabeth's power came from her own power. That she was free to do what she wanted to do. But was she really free to do what she wanted to? I don't know. I think in a way, you know, you're always constrained with a patriarchy with the card you're given.

• 44:20Kate Lister?

  Frenemies.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, frenemies.

• 44:23Kate Lister?

  So as as a final question then, and I've got to ask you this, otherwise the the listeners will go, no, you have to go back and and address that point. Um Elizabeth wasn't a virgin then, in your opinion?

• 44:33Speaker 04

  No, I mean, I I I hope not. I hope not.

• 44:36Kate Lister?

  I hope not.

• 44:38Speaker 04

  I mean, come on, a life without anything?

• 44:41Kate Lister?

  As a Tudor expert, what's your thoughts?

• 44:43Speaker 04

  Okay, do you want, um um, let's look at the facts. And I'm gonna give you a fact that has been overlooked. And I haven't worked on it. I just came across it. Okay, so again, it's not it's not deep research, but I'm gonna tell you something. From my understanding, every single royal physicians of Elizabeth the first.

• 45:02Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Had a patron. Do you know who is that patron?

• 45:06Kate Lister?

  No, I don't know who that patron is. Who's that?

• 45:08Speaker 04

  Robert Dudley.

• 45:09Kate Lister?

  Oh shit.

• 45:10Speaker 04

  So are you telling me that he was paying, for me, he was paying them that to say?

• 45:16Kate Lister?

  Does she's a virgin?

• 45:19Speaker 04

  I don't have the proof of that, but I found it really weird that the royal physicians of Elizabeth the first were paid by Robert Dudley.

• 45:27Kate Lister?

  The man who, if anyone was gonna puff a cherry.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  I don't I don't think she was shagging everyone. Okay, like, that's another thing. I don't think she was miss shagging. I think I think there was something. I'm I'm honestly, I'm pretty confident that something happened with Robert Dudley more than once.

• 45:44Kate Lister?

  Okay, okay, we're just not sure what base.

• 45:46Speaker 04

  How do you explain the relationship otherwise? How do you, you know, just look at fifteen seventy four, Kenny Wolf Castle. I can see it happening.

• 45:53Kate Lister?

  At least, at least she got a finger blast, something.

• 46:00Speaker 04

  Something, something.

• 46:03Kate Lister?

  So the final, final, final question then, I'll ask you. Do you think that these two women, Queen Elizabeth and Queen Catherine, would have got along if they'd met? Or do you think it was a professional relationship?

• 46:15Speaker 04

  No, I think they would have got on. I think, I think if there, if there had been no, anything diplomatically at stake of, you know, I think they would have liked each other. I think they had very similar sense of humour. Similar wit and, and they were both intelligent women. I think they would have gotten.

• 46:32Kate Lister?

  Estelle, you have been magnificent to talk to. Once again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

• 46:39Speaker 04

  Mostly on Instagram. I post a lot, or my YouTube channel as well, Elle History. I'm trying, but I do react to historical fiction, but I do react to lots of Tudor shows and they are bad, Kate.

• 46:53Kate Lister?

  Bad. That's your definition of bad though, isn't it? If it's just pretty people shagging, then they're, they're pretty good.

• 47:02Speaker 04

  I'll give you that.

• 47:04Kate Lister?

  But historical accuracy, a bit, a bit shonky.

• 47:07Speaker 04

  Cheers, there's a boom.

• 47:12Kate Lister?

  Oh, thank you so much. You have been an absolute treat.

• 47:15Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me.

• 47:22Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Estelle for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts. Coming up, we've got an episode asking, who was the Witch Queen of Scotland? And the first in a new mini-series exploring sex and scandal in Hollywood's golden era, all coming your way. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast was edited by Hannah Feodorov and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 48:25Speaker 03

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  In Our Time, listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.