Genghis Khan's Sex Life

As historical figures go, Genghis Khan has something of a reputation. Is there any truth to the rumours of him fathering so many children? What was life like in 12th century Mongolia? And how did he create one of histories most noted empires? Joining Kate today is historian Marie Favereau, author of The Horde: How The Mongols Changed The World https://dauntbooks.co.uk/shop/books/the-horde-how-the-mongols-changed-the-world/, to help us find out. This episode was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. All music from Epidemic Sounds/All3 Media. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

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• 0:37Speaker 01

  Would you believe us if we told you there was a podcast that was haunted? Well, there is. It's called Two Girls, One Ghost. We didn't want to believe it at first, but we can no longer ignore it. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. We're talking ghosts caught on camera. Demonic possessions. Cursed mirrors. Bigfoot. Poltergeists. Exorcisms. Near-death experiences. Unsolved mysteries. Missing persons. Each week, we explore the deepest, darkest, spookiest places in the world. Tune in to Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. Listen at your own risk.

• 1:14Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am me, you are you, and this is Betwixt the Sheets. But before we can go any further on our little adventures together, I do have to let you know that this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. And if you are of a sensitive disposition, well, just sod off now. We don't need you around here crying and whinging and just... and causing a scene. Right, on with the show.

• 1:49Kate Lister?

  Out here on the Mongolian steppe in the 12th century, life is transient. Tribes look for pastas new with their livestock, moving in sync with the seasons. And you know what? It's absolutely bloody exhausting. Can we not just settle and put down some roots? I'm sick of living out of my suitcase, constantly dragging it along the Mongolian plains. But this one family that I've been bunking with seem to absolutely love it. In fact, they all do, so who on earth might judge? Not only that, but their son Timurjan seems like quite an ambitious fellow, and is talking about one day uniting the tribes of Mongolia to create one of the most powerful empires in history. Don't kids say the craziest things? But what will become of this boy, who will one day be called Bob, Bob, Bob,

• 2:34Kate Lister?

  Genghis Khan? Well, I am ready to find out if you are. Let's do it.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  What are you calling him, Anne?

• 2:47Speaker 03

  Oh, money, of course.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

• 2:51Speaker 04

  I make perfect compliments of whatever my boss needs by just turning the knob and pushing the button.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I feel for them. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry.

• 3:14Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. He's spoken of as one of the really big monsters in history. Even his name, Genghis Khan, which isn't actually his birth name. It's a stage name, means universal leader. So he wasn't shy. But who was the man behind the reputation? Was he really the all conquering, sexually violent man that we've been led to believe he was? Did Genghis Khan have a softer side? And what was, what was 12th century Mongolia really like? Well, joining me today to find out is historian Marie Favreau, to take us back to this world and help me find out. So without further ado, let's crack on.

• 4:00Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Marie Favreau. How are you doing? Ah, I'm doing very well. Thank you. I'm so excited to have you here because we have never, ever spoken about Genghis Khan on this podcast, which seems a spectacular oversight. And you are the author of, I'll give you the full title, The Horde: How the Mongols Changed the World. So as a starter question, what made you want to write a book about the Mongol Empire? And Mr Khan?

• 4:34Speaker 05

  Thank you for your question. Well, actually, it goes back to when I was a student in history in Paris. I start learning about big empires. You know, I learn about the Ottoman Empire, the Abbasid Empire, the Roman Empire, obviously. And then suddenly I heard about some Mongol Empire. It was all new for me. And when I start looking for books, for information, well, it was twenty years ago, right? But actually, I found nothing. I mean, everybody said, "Oh, we have nothing. This was a nomadic empire. Maybe there was not so many written sources. We don't have enough information, and it's an obscure empire." So it triggered my interest very honestly. And so I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna find some information."

• 5:19Speaker 05

  So I start traveling all around Central Asia, Basiti and Russia, to find information. And I'm still traveling and living in Central Asia, I'm funny. But I found a lot on this Mongol Empire.

• 5:32Kate Lister?

  So who were the Mongols then? Who was the Mongol Empire? Because I think most of my knowledge of Genghis Khan is informed by Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which is not very helpful here. So who were they?

• 5:46Speaker 05

  Okay, yes, sure. Well, then, look, the first time we see the name Mongol in the sources, historical sources, is around the 12th century. Actually, we see it very rarely before, but it's really in the 12th century that we see this name appearing as name over kind of new nomadic people, very active in what is Mongolia today. So basically, the eastern Eurasia, right? So it's north, north of China and east of Central Asia, in this area, very cold, a lot of steps, nomadic people living there, herders. So we see this name appearing, Mongol, and we see also that apparently there were a lot of,

• 6:28Speaker 05

  interestingly, state experience there, old state experience, like empires existed before the 12th century. Not with the name Mongols, it was associated with other names like Turks, like Uighur, maybe, you know, some of our... Our listeners have heard of those names. Uh Turks come from East Mongolia. They come from the east of Eurasia, yeah. And they built empires there. So when Mongols appearing around the twelfth century, they were before strong experience of state organization, strong armies, uh conquest, trade, also a lot of diplomacy with China and with Central Asia. So it sounds new to us, uh Westerners.

• 7:14Speaker 05

  But if you think about the twelfth century, this around the world already had a lot of experience. And that's where Jing's hand is born.

• 7:21Kate Lister?

  So the Mongols, they are, they're nomadic. They value horse riding. I'm sorry, this is gonna sound really ignorant of me now, but did they build towns and cities? Or were they just always on the move?

• 7:34Speaker 05

  Uh, that's a very important question. So actually, it's both. They are on the move. They move with seasons, you know, it makes sense. Uh, whether it's bad here, you move there, right? And also you are a big herd. So the animals, they move with you and they need good grass. They need new water, fresh water. So you need to move them. So the movies make sense. But what is interesting is they also built uh cities. They built monuments. They are interested in permanent structures. They don't live in those structures. They don't live in the cities. They make other people live in them, but they don't stay in them themselves. They finance, they are happy to pass through them. Sometimes they organize like ceremonies, like rituals in cities.

• 8:17Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 8:18Speaker 05

  But they don't live in them. So we historians and archaeologists in Mongolia, when we work in Mongolia today, we find the traces of this old archaeological remains, like old cities, you know? But we also know that these people were nomads and never wanted to settle, tries to settle down in city. They never wanted to be closing to four walls, huh? They still continue the life as herders. They like the love and value the freedom of the life in this step.

• 8:47Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 8:47Speaker 05

  Uh and they are also clever because you know in this area, winter is super cold and summer is super hot. So it's it makes sense to move, you know, just to sort of escape the the difficulties of weather.

• 9:01Kate Lister?

  So was there one huge Mongol tribe or multiple smaller? I'm just trying to get a sense of how the empire worked. Was there like select groups that that fought one another or did they get along or how was it set up?

• 9:15Speaker 05

  We know in twelfth century, there were a lot of fights among smaller groups. We can call them tribes. Some people like to say people, there are a lot of names, but they also have their own names. What Mongol is just one among other names that we see at that time. Uh there's another name that is famous, which is Tatar. Tatar name is famous too. Uh but you know, they were Congira people. So all these people, they have name, they shape groups. And or tribes, if you prefer, and they have alliance, they have fights. It's a very lively area, uh politically speaking. They don't fight all the time. They also trade amongst themselves. They have uh some differences, but they understand each other.

• 9:57Speaker 05

  Like uh they have some common rules. Hospitality, for instance, is important. The fact that you're a herder, the fact that you live with the seasons, it's like common to all those people. They also have some ritual, like religious rituals. They believe in the spirits of the land and the spirit of nature, lakes, river, mountains, they have all this in common, you see? But you know, it's there's no unity. And Genghis Khan is gonna change that because he's gonna build up the unity of the tribes, the unity of the of the nomads in the steppe. And that's something really new and it's gonna take him a lot of time, probably more than twenty years.

• 10:37Kate Lister?

  Alright, so let's talk about, you said Genghis and I say Genghis, which one is it? Cause I don't wanna get it wrong.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  Well, look, uh I would say Genghis is is correct, but if we want to say Genghis, it's it's fine too and yeah. So but Genghis, Genghis Khan, and Genghis Khan, you know, is a title. It's not his first name, actually. He has a name.

• 10:57Kate Lister?

  Isn't it?

• 10:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, his name is Temujin. Temujin, it means something like blacksmith. And it's it's his real name and Genghis Khan is the title.

• 11:06Kate Lister?

  It's a stage name.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  It's yes, exactly. Yeah. So we can call him Tenegin.

• 11:11Kate Lister?

  Oh, I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him though, because he does have a reputation as quite a fearsome historical character, doesn't he? And he's sort of one of those iconic historical characters that we think we know things about, but we almost certainly don't. And he has a reputation for wildness and savagery. And am I right in thinking that George R R Martin based the Dothraki of what he thought the Mongol hoods were? So I've got a bit of like that in there as well. Can you clear some of this up for us and tell us, first of all, where did Genghis Khan come from? What is his origin story? Because if he wasn't born Genghis Khan, he was born blacksmith.

• 11:54Speaker 05

  He was born blacksmith, yeah. But you see, blacksmiths in this world at that time, it's it's already an elite title. It means you can work with metal. It means you're coming from an maybe iron smith family. It means you're coming from a good family. It's not anyone can be, you know, pretend being a blacksmith. And blacksmiths metal means, you know, iron, meaning weapons. It means wealth. It means being strong, all this. So his father is not like a king. He's more as a local chieftain, we think. But he might have had a famous grandfather. We're not sure of that. But we think maybe his grandfather was a very, very powerful man. So he's not coming from anywhere in the step. He's coming

• 12:38Speaker 05

  from aristocracy, like it's already like from warrior family and it's somebody when he's born. But then his father died when he was young and the family lost control of the tribe. And the Mongol just practically left his mother. It was when he was around a 10 years old, he was really alone with his mother and brothers and sisters. And he had really a harsh time. This has been describing the sources, trying to fight for, you know, to survive in the step and being, you know, feeling he has been abandoned by his own people. So the idea is to show he's coming from this aristocracy.

• 13:18Speaker 05

  But at the same time, he's a self-made man also, you know, he had to fight to reach the throne and to build up what will become this special character, Jing's Han. And this title Jing's Han basically is a completely unknown title. Cause at that time in the step or even in medieval worlds, you know, title are reused. You know, Caesar, you know, I don't know, a lot of title are like circulates. This title is for us historians, as we can see, looking at sources, is completely new. He invented his own title. So I like this this character is someone was like, he has his eridates, he has his tradition. Empire before him, the great Turks and all, but at the same time, he has to build up something new.

• 14:03Speaker 05

  And so the the combination of both is very interesting, very dynamic.

• 14:07Kate Lister?

  So he's he's born, and it seems like there's there's a sort of a warrior lineage. He's born from a good family. Then he they lose control and they're kind of cast out when he's a young, a young boy, is that right?

• 14:21Speaker 05

  Exactly, yeah.

• 14:22Kate Lister?

  How did you get to be the the chieftain, the king, the ruler in these cultures? Is it an inherited right? Or is it, I'm the strongest, so I win?

• 14:31Speaker 05

  I don't know, it's very interesting, there are different elements. So or okay, you need to be well born, that's clear, it's there. But you have to fight. You have to show you're available uh to your people, yeah. Uh so the idea is like you cannot be a kid, you cannot be a very old man neither. You have to be in between because you have to be able, physically able, like to go on the battlefield or to negotiate in terms of diplomacy or to also make children, a desannancy. So you have to be really in the full power, you like physically and mentally, that's also there. So being well born is not enough. It's a good thing, but it's not enough.

• 15:13Speaker 05

  And also what we say being well born, it's important to understand it's not only through your father line, but through your mother line as well. The mother is very important and also. The generation, the pedigree through the mother line is is absolutely there. So you have to show you have both. And then you have to show you're able on the battlefield, because because the difference with Western Europe is. It's not only about the eldest son in a family. So if you have a brother or even a cousin. Or nephew was super able, but then you have to fight with this person. Because it's not necessary, the eldest son. It can be any son, any son clever, physically powerful.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  And also able probably to create some diplomacy and to be well accepted and appreciated by others. This is also super important. If you act like too harshly to your people, they're gonna leave you at some point. And no matter have this freedom to leave, right? Yeah.

• 16:14Kate Lister?

  Wow. So this sounds like quite a harsh childhood. I don't know, I wasn't expecting Genghis Khan to have had a comfortable, well-adjusted childhood. But this sounds like it's quite, it's quite brutal. It was, and it sounds like there were some points where he might not have survived. So what happens from this little boy that's been cast out? How does he become the warrior?

• 16:37Speaker 05

  Uh, there are different steps. One, his father before he died, married his son, Timijin, to. To a young girl, I mean, young, she was one year older than his son. So they were at that time around nine and 10 years old. It mean, it doesn't mean the marriage really happened, but they were promax to one another, we understand. And this girl, Berthe, uh, she's going to be, she's going to really support. Her fiance and then husband. And her family is kind of a rich family, so she's gonna bring some wealth to Genghis, to Timijin. And Timijin's gonna use the wealth. So this wealth at that time is actually, it's like a pelt, it's a fur, it's a black.

• 17:20Speaker 05

  Uh, black skin, black fur, it means millions at that time.

• 17:25Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 17:25Speaker 05

  So it's not, it's not cash, but it's like cash, right? It's a, this black sabbat fur, it's a fur coat if you want. And this fur coat, his wife's gonna give it to him, he's gonna use it. And it's gonna buy his first very important ally through this, by giving this coat to him. And this, this king, local king called On Khan, he has a number of name sources, was like the local ruler, local king in the steppe. From Keri people, so another type of people, Christian nomadic people, and he was very powerful. He was a good friend of Jemijin's father, and Jemijin come and say, look, I give you this fur, this fur coat, that means be my ally, we have to fight together. And can you fight with me?

• 18:10Speaker 05

  Can you help me? And since, since that time, they start to sort of work together. And that's the first step, I would say. But it's interesting, because you look at the first step, it's not a military step. It's a diplomacy, diplomatic step, why? So, and also it's how Genghis used whatever is in his hands. So he got his marriage, he got the fur coat, then he got the first, uh, strong ally. Then he will move on, always, and always renegotiate his position, never get a deal. He's like, okay, I have this, now I want more, and I will build up on what I have. And renegotiate his relationship to, to his neighbors, to his allies. And, and that's where you see the character of taking shit.

• 18:53Kate Lister?

  So he's got a fur coat, which by all accounts was a very impressive fur coat. When does he take the name Genghis, and what does it mean?

• 19:04Speaker 05

  Well, we think the name was taken around at the end of, of the 12th century, maybe. I mean, there's a key date, which is 1206.

• 19:12Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 19:13Speaker 05

  It's interesting, Travel Six, uh it's the date where we know is already known as Genghis Khan. And he has made uh already his work as like unified many tribes in Mongolia. But he's not young, he is already something like forty, he has already a long experience. And that's where you can see that it's going to develop a second career. And it gonna go out of Mongolia with his uh troops. Go to China and Central Asia, we can talk about this later. But then, Travel Six, we know this name become famous. And he sort of say, this is my title. And we think that this title means something like, hmm, maybe world or universal leader.

• 19:56Speaker 05

  I mean, Han is a king, is an emperor, so is a leader. Genghis is more complex to interpret. It might mean the sea, like at that time, there's this idea that around the world, there's an ocean which sort of goes all around the world. So Genghis might mean the name of this ocean, like the ocean around the world, which would

• 20:19Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  would mean actually he's the king of the world, right? So that that is an interpretation, but we're not sure. But that's certainly part of this maybe ambition, not to be king of the whole world. Because what is the whole world for these people at that time? What do they know about the world? But certainly to be the king among these people and the king of the nomad.

• 20:40Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 20:40Speaker 05

  That's also something you can see clearly for for people at that time. The most important in the world are nomadic people. And that's where, you know, Genghis Khan wants to build up, you know, his his name. And also to sort of create a dynasty, push his family to be like the leader, the leader family of of the nomads in the whole step.

• 21:02Kate Lister?

  Am I right in thinking that his first wife, Bati, was kidnapped? And that he had to go and rescue her?

• 21:09Speaker 05

  Absolutely. So kidnapping women is something that happened at that time. Uh we see this also first with Genghis mother. Genghis mother, or even she had been kidnapped by Genghis father.

• 21:20Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 21:21Speaker 05

  Uh she was promised Someone else and she has been kidnapped. So we know that it happened. Well, the thing is, marriage at that time is very much kind of a political alliance. So if you want to sort of develop your power, if you want to to grow, politically speaking also, your wife is super important and especially your first wife. So uh that's why for, on the one hand, for Genghis, uh Bertie was very important. She's she gave him his perp code, as you know. She was loyal to him because they were close to each other uh in their youth and she remained faithful to him. But then the people of his mother, who lost his mother because she was kidnapped from them, the Medics people,

• 22:06Speaker 05

  they decided to get their revenge and they capture his wife because of this, you know, his father and mother's story. So this all revenge thing is interesting, but most importantly, I would say is um Genghis really had a long, long fight to get her back. The idea is not okay, well, I lost my wife and then I can have other wives. It's no, I want her back. And that was also one of the key aspects of his alliance with the Buddha. He gave the perp code to. Okay, I lost my wife back. So there are different stories in sources. There were some fights, some battles, but also negotiations behind it. And she came back to him and they will always remain in whole the forces as we can see, a couple, like.

• 22:50Speaker 05

  They will always remain the couple. They will have four sons together. And the four sons they have together who are gonna be like founders of new dynasties in all Central Asia, in Chi- Northern China, in Mongolia. So this is a real beginning of the story of the families, the story of a couple. So you cannot study Genghis without studying Bertie, his his first wife. They are really so together since the beginning. And although, of course, you know, sources, historical sources, official sources, you know, it's not always the truth. But it means that for the people of the time, it was important at least to portray them as a couple and to show how she was so important to them.

• 23:33Kate Lister?

  A power couple.

• 23:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:41Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Marie after this short break.

• 23:57Kate Lister?

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• 25:20Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I am jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixter Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

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• 26:36Kate Lister?

  He fell out with his brothers, didn't he? There was a lot of fighting and going to war with his brothers.

• 26:42Speaker 05

  Yep. Well, it said in the sources that he killed his half brother was eldest actually in the family.

• 26:49Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 26:49Speaker 05

  Uh, for fighting over fish.

• 26:52Kate Lister?

  Of course.

• 26:52Speaker 05

  Yeah. The idea is really to make people understand they have a hard life. They have to share the foods. And when you share the food, you share the food according to the hierarchy of the family. And there's a fight because Jengis and his and his eldest brother, they don't have the same mother. So he's the, Jengis is not the eldest in a way. So he has to show, okay, there's no negotiation. I'm, I'm the leader. So that's, I think that's behind the story.

• 27:22Kate Lister?

  So I see.

• 27:23Speaker 05

  We don't know if he really killed his half brother, but it's what it means behind is like, there's no negotiation about who's the leader.

• 27:31Kate Lister?

  It's by respect.

• 27:32Speaker 05

  Exactly. Yeah. It's all about respect and also sport. I mean, it's also when you get a victory, when you share, you share, but you share according to people's rank. That's also the other thing. So everybody got to share, but according to birth rank or, you know, uh, social rank, that's also behind the story.

• 27:52Kate Lister?

  Now, Jengis Khan is known for a lot of things. He's got a reputation for extreme violence and like bloodthirsty, going into battle. You wouldn't want to mess with him. How fair is that? Would you have said that he was more violent and aggressive than other people? Or is that well deserved?

• 28:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's very important question. And also hard to answer. Well, I would say it's not totally fair in the sense that why we would have been more, you know, bloodthirsty than others. In history, even Alexander the Great, or I don't know, any, any tax or we want, we want to pick up, you know, from, from the past. He's clearly not after blood. When you look at his actions, his career, even. Everything we know from sources is, his idea is certainly to build up an empire. So he's a kind of a schooler in that sense. But he looks for diplomacy, he looks for negotiation, he looks also for, and sometimes he make, he made mistakes.

• 28:51Speaker 05

  And he acknowledged he made mistakes. And it's interesting, his mother, for instance, or his wife. Would be presented in sources are telling him, you know, you made mistakes. You either the mother saying, you killed, you have brothers, this is horrible, how can you do that? You have to be all together, we are one family. Or his wife also advising him to do this and that. And you can see that he listened to that. He's not someone who's sort of crazy and, you know, just going for violence. It's, it's not the portrait. Exactly. So now the, the very like negative portrait of Jacob's panel also is, is from later time. Because during colonial period in, also in the West, and when not from in the West, and in Russia and China.

• 29:35Speaker 05

  The idea that nomads could have been at some point, you know, the rulers of the world or, uh, world, even their own countries was not. That were appreciated. And, um, they looked into sources to find anything negative about him. But the truth is, yeah, I mean, there've been war, there've been violence, that is absolutely uncertain, but it's not worse than another. And, and even we know that he said, you, I want new subjects, I don't want dead people. So, you know, if you conquer a city, you need to, okay, make reason why if you want, but what I want is taxpayers. It's not slaves who are dying, you know, because this is, this make no sense.

• 30:14Speaker 05

  So this is, is more rational than, you know, the portrait, the popular portraits that has been built through movies and stuff like that.

• 30:22Kate Lister?

  I can't imagine that you would be able to successfully build an empire without, um, subjugating and being quite cruel and. And being quite a brutal leader, because they all were, but he wasn't. Mad, which is kind of how he's often portrayed as this wild, savage, completely crazy person. He wasn't that at all.

• 30:41Speaker 05

  No, absolutely not. And he's also super interesting because he can really move from, as you said, like battlefield to diplomacy, negotiation. You know, he can, he had different faces, right? And I think also it's interesting to look at what are the goal? You know, he's, he's not after, the idea is not, I want to educate the world. He never said, or we have no trace in forces where he just said he wanted to be the leader of the world. What he wants is certainly to be the leader of a nomad, but that's different, right?

• 31:13Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 05

  And also, we have to remind that, imagine 13, draft 13 century. What is more precious at that time than men and women than people? People are the most precious things. So what Genghis is after is to enroll more people. He wants to integrate people. So, and to do that, of course, you can just make prisoners, but you also have to convince people. Because Genghis and the leader, nomadic leader are not stupid. They know that, you know, if you force people, and start gonna laugh. And they always think about the future. And this is really clear, you know, that's really the nomadic mind.

• 31:50Kate Lister?

  A lot of people might be quite surprised to hear about Genghis's wife, Bertie. Not that he was married, I don't think that'll surprise anyone, but the idea that there was at one point, one wife. Because if there's someone else that Genghis is known for, it's for being an absolute sex rampaging dirtbag. Can't keep it in his pants, having it away with absolutely everything. He has that reputation of sexual aggression and sexual assault is attached to him as well. So can I ask you, how far is that warranted? Did he have more than one wife? And where does that reputation come from?

• 32:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is so interesting. Okay, so yes, you had more than one wife. So in this nomadic world, there's no restriction on number of marriages. So you can have as many wives as you can afford, because of course you have to be fair to them and, you know, unique to share with them. So only neither of several wives, like you can see later on in the Muslim world. That's one thing. Other interesting thing is, of course, that there's no religious restriction, like in, you know, uh, Christian, Christian world, there's religious restriction, you know, it doesn't mean that people have sexual restriction, doesn't mean that socially they can have only one. So in this Mongol world, you can have socially, you can have more, even more than four, which is like the number in U.S.A.

• 33:11Speaker 05

  But, but only the first one or the primary one can really provide the, the hair. The son that are going to be fully legitimate to get a throne, they are coming from the couple. So the couple is super important officially. You see the couple everywhere in miniatures, that, you know, there's a lot of images depicting the couple uh, being in love on the throne. And it's true, they officially saw themselves as a couple. So like if you're an ambassador, you come to Jingdez to present, you know, a gift, uh, you're coming from faraway country, you will see him and you will see his wife, his first wife together on the same throne. The other throne is two, you know, two seats. So

• 33:56Speaker 05

  that's this idea of, you know, uh, some sort of equal standing between the wives. So that's what I say. Of course, at the same time, they are also wives. And these are the wives out to the important as well, politically speaking, but they are under the authority of the first wife. So Bertha, the first wife, normally she controlled the other wives. That, that's how it works. Oh, no. Imagine, yeah. Okay. Uh, but last thing is concerning like sexual like assault and stuff like that. So this is coming from later narratives. So for Jingdez himself, we have absolutely no description in any sources about raping a woman or just even saying it's good to do it, or.

• 34:37Speaker 05

  Sort of letting his armies, uh, having enjoying woman like feeling, it's never there.

• 34:42Kate Lister?

  No evidence of that.

• 34:45Kate Lister?

  That's amazing.

• 34:47Speaker 05

  Uh, but imagine for for medieval period, just the fact that he can have as many women as he wants. In terms of what's right or concubines, already is like, it means he's uh crazy sexually, right? It means that there's a limit.

• 35:03Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 05

  Which actually is not true, there are limits, but you know, it was seen as such. Then also, of course, in later sources, was especially with one of his son, we have description of rape. During a Mongol conquest in uh in different places. And it's clear that unfortunately, like, you know, conquest armies, they, you know, led by men and they they were very. Yeah, it's sure, there was some sexual violence, certainly.

• 35:29Kate Lister?

  Of course.

• 35:30Speaker 05

  You cannot deny this, but it's not something that is supported by Jengis or, you know, saying that it's good, it's good to act like this. Obviously not. And then finally, of course, I have to say as a his foreign, I'd love to know more about real sexual life. Or uh of the time or even love, he might have or not for his wife and the love she might have or not for him. In sources, it said that they they had a feeling from father, I mean, it looks like so. And at least they really were together as a couple in the same direction for a period of time. But I have to add that we know when Jengis died, we don't know when he was worked out. And she was the first lady, so it means that at some point, she became less important or she disappeared.

• 36:15Speaker 05

  We don't know how she disappeared, we don't know what happened to her at the end.

• 36:18Kate Lister?

  Someone asked the other wives.

• 36:20Speaker 05

  Exactly. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of mysteries, but uh you have to keep in mind that, you know, whether maybe something happened to her at some point.

• 36:34Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Marie after this short break.

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• 37:23Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there. And the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 38:04Kate Lister?

  In 2003, there was a study, wasn't there, of Asian men? And they found that 8% of all men in Asia descended from one gene source. And it was speculated that that was Genghis Khan, which I suppose hasn't helped his reputation as a top shagger. Well, can you tell me about that piece of research?

• 38:28Speaker 05

  Well, this is very questionable and for no very reason, although it's interesting. First of all, I have to say, I have to tell that we don't have Genghis's body. We don't know where Genghis has been buried.

• 38:40Kate Lister?

  We don't know?

• 38:41Speaker 05

  No, it's a secret. It was kept until today. There are expectations and interpretation and ideas, maybe it's in Mongolia and Burhan Khaldun. Some other people say it have other ideas, but in any case, we don't have Genghis DNA. That's the first thing I wanna say. So, anything else is a guess. So, it's, but it's true now that we work more and more on DNA that there's a connection between many people in Central Asia, from Mongolia to Hungary, let's say, and they have some common origin somewhere. So, people guess because it was so easy and they said, oh, it comes from Genghis Khan's period and from him himself, you know?

• 39:21Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 05

  Maybe, but no way you can prove it at that point. So, we need more study. Also, I heard from colleagues, we're working on DNA that we don't have enough studies on the European, you know, also regions, but it might have been the same, like, not that they are all coming from, uh, Genghis at all, but that they might have some common origin at some points. So, we need to, to work more on that, but I think what is key to understanding through a historian is that being from Genghis was for a very long time until, actually, since the 18th century, the best thing that I can, that could add up into you because it's the best pedigree. It means you're coming from the elite of elites.

• 40:06Speaker 05

  So, people would anyway claim that they were coming from Genghis. It was, it could have been the best if you want to be a ruler, if you want to be a warrior, if you want to be respected in all Central Asia. And there were dynasties coming from Genghis until the 18th century and in Crimea, in many places. So, it's funny because up until late 18th century, it was really a blessing to say or to prove that you were coming from Genghis family. And then colonial period, modern time, it's like a shame. And now today, we are more balanced.

• 40:42Kate Lister?

  So, final question then, how did Genghis die? What, what took him out?

• 40:47Speaker 05

  That's so important that we still guess. He died much long, okay? Probably sixty-something, which at that time it means, you know, long career and so on. We know he died in 2027. We know he died probably during summer, probably August. And at that moment, his armies were In what is now western China, central western China, Tang Guo's kingdom of that time. Tang Guo's be there out against the Mongols, so Mongols were back to them and fighting it all. We know he probably, he was as being injured at some point, or maybe was sick. Some other sources say maybe he was sick, so some people say after plague, but we don't know. There were plenty of terrible diseases at that time.

• 41:30Speaker 05

  So, one of them, either injured, either during fights, either sick, but he was not killed. So it's kind of normal. But interesting thing is, they hide, at that time, they decided to hide the fact that he died. Because first of all, they wanted to continue their conquest, and it's hard to say whether he died. Uh, the other reason is, he had no idea about succession, it was not clear who would really be the successor. And he had also, at that time, three sons, one was dead already. But then there were discussions about that. And last, they wanted to, there was some taboo around the body. They wanted nobody to touch his body, to touch his bones, his flesh. He was like almost becoming a god.

• 42:14Speaker 05

  So they sort of found a secret place where he had been buried and protected. And it's still today, you know, all super protected and we thought, no, we guess, but we're not sure. And I think it's, um, I think maybe among all the leaders of the world, he's the one along with so much mystery. How he died and where he has been, you know, buried. That's why his DNA remains also a big question mark.

• 42:43Kate Lister?

  Don't know.

• 42:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:44Kate Lister?

  Oh, Marie, you have been fascinating to talk to. Thank you so much for coming to tell us about this. Very misunderstood, but still quite violent man. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

• 42:55Speaker 05

  I think they can find my book, The Horde. They can also find your line. I work in an institute and I live in Kyrgyzstan, this case. Not even central Asia. He was really the core of James Hans Empire, where I live now. And I conduct my research there. So, and they can also find some documentaries. I've been part of Smithsonian Channel. James Hans Mongolia, I've been part of this documentary.

• 43:19Kate Lister?

  That's fantastic. Oh, thank you so much. You have been wonderful to talk to.

• 43:24Speaker 05

  Thank you so much, Keith. It was such a pleasure for me.

• 43:32Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Marie for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hi, then you can email us at [email protected]. Coming up, we've got episodes on the sex lives of the Spartans and a special collaboration with the Cautionary Tales podcast, all coming your way. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheet, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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