The Execution of England's Teenage Queen

To many she's known as Lady Jane Grey, but history should remember her as Queen Jane I. She was only queen for 9 days in 1553, but this made her the first ever queen of England when she was just 16. What happened in her short life that made her suddenly the most powerful woman in England? How did 'Bloody Mary' Tudor react? And how did it all go so wrong? Joining Kate is the wonderful historian Kate Williams, author of Regina: A New History of Women and Power. This episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Betwixt the Sheets is a History Hit podcast. History Hit is part of Little Dot Studios, a Certified B Corp™ Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

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• 1:40Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back once again to Betwix the Sheets. That's me doing jazz hands, but you can't see it because we're still on audio. Welcome back. It's fab to have you here, but because we care about you and your precious, precious feelings, I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, but about adults, other adults, but adulty things and adulty way of making a major love subject and you should be an adult too. And that's just to keep your feelings safe. We call that the fair do's warning because if you keep listening and you happen to get upset, well, then tough tits, because that one was on you. Fair do's, we did tell you. Right, let's crack on.

• 2:19Kate Lister?

  I have been ushered into the grand chamber at Cylon House, where England's most powerful men have suddenly dropped to their knees. Someone's cleared his throat and has announced that King Edward VI is dead. Before I've even had a chance to offer my condolences, they've insisted that this rather bewildered 16-year-old kid, Lady Jane Grey, is now Queen of England. What? Honestly, give the girl five minutes. Strangely, instead of popping open the celebratory mead, Lady Jane Grey bursts into tears. So why was England's greatest prize greeted with horror?

• 3:00Kate Lister?

  And was Jane really the helpless victim that history remembers, or something different altogether?

• 3:28Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwix the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. I'm not sure anything can properly prepare you for being queen of an entire country, but when you are 16 and you're essentially the rope in a religious tug of war between powerful people, well, bloody hell, as if you didn't have enough to be getting on with as a teenager. Well, that is what Lady Jane Grey faced in 1553. What on earth must she have been thinking? How do you even face something of that magnitude? And what did the Tudors make of her? Well, joining me today is the fantastic historian and author of the new book Regina, A New History of Women in Power, Kate Williams.

• 4:11Kate Lister?

  So without further ado, let's crack on.

• 4:21Kate Lister?

  Well, hello and welcome back to Betwix the Sheets. It's only Kate Williams. How are you doing?

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Thrilled to be here. Wonderful, Kate.

• 4:30Kate Lister?

  Thank you for coming back. It's so nice to see you.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  I'm delighted to be here and congratulations on your book on...

• 4:36Kate Lister?

  Well, thank you and congratulations on...

• 4:38Speaker 02

  What a success. Got it behind us, looking fabulous.

• 4:41Kate Lister?

  And congratulations on yours as well.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Book sisters.

• 4:44Kate Lister?

  Book sisters, right. It's a weird process, that, isn't it? Is the anxiety and the existential crisis and the few mental breakdowns that come along the way.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Yes, the total terror, the total terror of pressing send on the final version and that's it.

• 5:00Kate Lister?

  Yeah, yeah, or reading the first reviews. But we're here to talk about a woman who frankly would have laughed at us for going, oh, right, that's what you're scared of, is it? That was a big deal for you, was it? Writing a book, really? Hmm. Lady Jane Grey.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  You are right. You are right.

• 5:17Kate Lister?

  She'd have gone stressful, was it? Writing a book, okay.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Fine.

• 5:22Kate Lister?

  What do I know about Lady Jane Grey? I suppose that most of what I know about her comes from that portrait, that famous painting, not a portrait, the famous painting of her as she's about to be executed and she's all bathed in light and she's, it's all white.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  She's wearing white. She's the image of tragic, romantic, the Paul Delaros. It is this sort of romantic vision of her as this lost innocent.

• 5:49Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  But that was not how she would have wanted to be remembered. She wanted to be remembered as a Protestant martyr. She was actually wearing black, not white. And it's shown as if she's inside a dark, dank cell, but she was really outside. She was one of the people, like Anne Boleyn, given the privilege, well, inverted commas, of being executed inside the Tower of London, so less public, not millions, thousands of people turning up. So it would have been outside. She was wearing black. It was more of a Protestant dignity. And I don't think, in the, in the painting, so the tragic thing about Lady Jane Grey is that when she is about to put her head on the block, it is reported after, she gives

• 6:32Speaker 02

  a very dignified speech, but she can't then find the block. She can't find it. She's blindfolded.

• 6:39Kate Lister?

  Oh, God.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  And she's saying, what shall I do? What shall I do? What shall I do? And she's helped to find the block by one of the men, but I don't quite think he was quite as fatherly as the painting suggested. So Lady Jane Grey would have wanted to be remembered as a Protestant martyr, or we might argue as, you know, a bit of a kick-ass teenage queen, the first of the queens. But instead, what we get is this romanticized, sentimental, tragic vision, which she was. I mean, she was probably 17, 17 and executed.

• 7:14Kate Lister?

  Oh, God, so young.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  But also, she was a pretty powerful woman in her own right. And Queen Jane, I think, would have been a force to be reckoned with.

• 7:24Kate Lister?

  We never call her Queen Jane, do we? We call her Lady Jane Grey.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Isn't it fascinating? So we never call her Queen Jane. Now, she was the nine days queen or 13 days queen, however you count it, but she was queen, she was on the throne, she signed documents, Regina, Regina, she had the crown jewels, she was ready to be crowned, the council agreed it. So that sounds pretty like a queen to me.

• 7:48Kate Lister?

  It does, doesn't it?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Because not everyone gets coronated. Edward VIII, well, he popped off with Mrs Simpson before there was time to have a coronation. And the other fascinating one is Edward V. The poor old prince of the tower. Now, he doesn't get crowned, you know, no processions. He goes to the tower and disappears. And yet he is in the pantheon as Edward, there's Edward IV, his father, then there's Edward VI, who is Henry VIII's son. So he gets to be Edward V. So, but we don't have Jane I. And it's interesting because even Lady Jane Grey is not what her contemporaries called her. She's married, she might be Lady Jane Dudley.

• 8:26Kate Lister?

  So even her name is wrong.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  They are, in the documents, they generally called her Jane Suffolk because her father is Duke of Suffolk. So it's really a way, I think, of pushing her out of the pantheon of female monarchs, of saying, she's not there. Oh, look, Elizabeth and Mary, these are the, these are the big kahunas. She doesn't exist. And she should be Jane I. She was queen. 13 days is more than some have managed in our history.

• 8:54Kate Lister?

  That's true, actually, yeah, that is. All right, so let's take this back to the beginning. Who was she? Because she never should have been queen, really.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  She's a bit of a long shot.

• 9:07Kate Lister?

  You wouldn't, you wouldn't have bet on that, would you?

• 9:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 9:10Kate Lister?

  No.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Henry VIII, when Henry VIII's alive, you wouldn't think, oh, my goodness.

• 9:13Kate Lister?

  No.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  I think it's going to be her. So Lady Jane Grey is born, we used to think she was born almost exactly the same time as Henry VIII finally has that son, the future Edward VI, by Jane Seymour in October 1537. But it's now thought that she's a bit older than Edward VI. It's probably, it's early 1537, end of 1536. But we're still not exactly sure how old she is. And of course, this matters because how old was she at execution? But we think about 17, but it's not much older. And she is part of the royal family. So the reason why she's significant is because she is, well, Henry VIII has two sisters, one older, Margaret, one younger, Mary.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  And Mary's sent off to marry the King of France and he dies not long after she arrives. They say that the bedroom is so fabulous that it puts him to death, dies happy, I think.

• 10:10Kate Lister?

  Wow, that's, that's a way to go.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  I know. And then she marries, well, I'd call him something of a good time boy, Charles Brandon, one of Henry VIII's chums, who's someone who says, oh, yes, Catherine of Aragon was always having sex with Arthur. I know it, I know it.

• 10:24Kate Lister?

  Oh, that guy.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  He's renter, renter, rent and evidence.

• 10:27Kate Lister?

  Right, okay.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  She marries him and her eldest child is called Francis Brandon and Lady Jane Grey is Francis Brandon's eldest daughter.

• 10:38Kate Lister?

  Right, okay, I'm with you.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so she is, she is Henry VIII's sister's...

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Grandchild, so Henry VIII's great niece.

• 10:48Kate Lister?

  Great niece, that's right.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:51Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Yes. So quite a long way from the throne.

• 10:54Kate Lister?

  In the gang, but definitely on the periphery of things.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Well, totally. She's totally on the periphery. And the only reason why she gets catapulted into this position of queen is because first Henry VIII and then Edward VI change the natural succession. Now, there's no one in the succession saying the oldest boy gets it and then it's the next eldest girl. But that's what everyone, for hundreds of years, it goes to the eldest boy.

• 11:23Kate Lister?

  Really? There's nothing ever written down that says it has to go to the, that's just what we've decided we're doing.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Kind of decided we're doing it.

• 11:28Kate Lister?

  But it's not a law?

• 11:29Speaker 02

  I mean, it's just, it just on and on and on it goes.

• 11:32Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Precedent, I suppose.

• 11:34Kate Lister?

  Okay, right, that's what they're doing.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  And so Henry has Edward VI, his wonderful little son.

• 11:42Kate Lister?

  Hurrah.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Turns the world upside down.

• 11:44Kate Lister?

  Yep.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Sets aside Catherine of Aragon to that sad life in Peterborough, chops off the head of Anne Boleyn, has Edward VI with her lady-in-waiting, Jane Seymour, and that's, oh, marvellous, I've got my son. And he's expecting lots more children. Doesn't have lots more children. And when he's gearing up or heading towards death, he makes a succession that says that my throne goes to Edward, then his daughter Mary by Catherine of Aragon, then Elizabeth, daughter by Anne Boleyn. And, I mean, you might think, okay, three children, that will do, Henry. But he thinks he might put an extra bit in. And what he does is he says, this throne cannot go to the line

• 12:29Speaker 02

  of my older sister Margaret, because you might say that that's the line of succession, isn't it? It's Edward, it's Mary, it's Elizabeth, then.

• 12:37Kate Lister?

  The cousins.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  If they don't have children, it's the cousins, the elder sister's children.

• 12:42Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  But Margaret, heaven forbid, has married into the Scottish royal family.

• 12:47Kate Lister?

  Oh, she hasn't.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  No, I know, I know. She is the grandmother of Mary, Queen of Scots. Oh, no. And Henry does not want those Scottish people anywhere near the throne.

• 12:57Kate Lister?

  Right, okay.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  So he basically makes his succession to say, you know, Scots, I hate you, you're all dreadful, you're nightmare lot, to basically exclude them. That's the only reason why he just does it to thumb his nose at the Scots and says.

• 13:10Kate Lister?

  Even in death, the man's an arsehole.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Well, yes, yes. I'm not forgiving any of you. I hate you, you're Scottish.

• 13:17Kate Lister?

  And by the way, I hate the Scots as well.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Don't think you'll even come near the throne, you stinkies. So it's Edward, it's Mary, it's Elizabeth, and then there's, all the Scots are out, so Mary, Queen of Scots, gang out. And then it goes, then he says, it goes to my younger sister, Mary, who happened to have children with my best mate, who was always sucking up to me all the time.

• 13:42Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  And this, being an heir to the throne, does matter, even if you're a long way from the throne. So when Henry VIII dies, you know, what we've got is Jane is in line to the throne.

• 13:53Kate Lister?

  So she's in, in line, but just a way back?

• 13:56Speaker 02

  A way back.

• 13:57Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Because you think, okay, you've got Edward, he's going to have children. You've got Mary, you've got Elizabeth. You're not going to be anywhere near, you know, this is sort of Beatrice and Eugene levels, really.

• 14:06Kate Lister?

  Just thinking that, I was thinking like, it's that kind of like, yeah, I guess they are, but it's not going to happen.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  It's not going to happen.

• 14:11Kate Lister?

  Right, okay.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  And then our Edward VI comes to the throne at age nine and dies at age 15.

• 14:18Kate Lister?

  Do we know what he died of, by the way?

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it's often said, it's often been said he's been very sickly his whole life. But new scholarship has been reassessing that. And actually, he seemed like he was pretty healthy for most of his life and then fell particularly ill for early 1533, falls back and then out of illness and then never recovers.

• 14:37Kate Lister?

  Could be anything, I suppose.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Never recovers. And so when he realizes that he's going to die, he makes what he calls my device for the succession. So Henry VIII had made his plans, made it an act of parliament, the whole lot, it was legal, it was his will, it was an act of parliament. This was the law. And Edward says, well, I'm going to change it. And he's a sort of cross 15-year-old who squibbles it out.

• 15:00Kate Lister?

  Oh, no.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Saying, oh, no, I don't want Mary, I don't want Elizabeth, it's going to Jane.

• 15:07Kate Lister?

  Why does he do that?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Initially, he says Jane's heirs male, and then, but Jane, Jane hasn't got any heirs male. And her mother, who was just, who was still childbearing age, she's in her 30s, she hasn't got any heirs male either. So it's just like, where are these, you know, if you die, where are these heirs male going to come from? And so he later changes it to Lady Jane Grey. So, you know, he pushes his sisters out of the succession and puts in Lady Jane Grey.

• 15:37Kate Lister?

  Who's his cousin, right?

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Who's his cousin. And how, this is a constant argument between scholars as to who is driving this? Is it Edward, who is very, very strongly Protestant, can't bear Mary because she's Catholic, they're always arguing.

• 15:54Kate Lister?

  They're not like each other.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  No. She was very, Mary and he got on very well as, she was very maternal to him when they were young. But now he's always cross and they're saying, why can't you just stop being a Catholic?

• 16:04Kate Lister?

  Because she was hardcore Catholic.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  You're very annoying me, you're annoying me, you're annoying me. So is it all driven by him? But he's really very ill at this point. Or do we have a Svengali figure up here?

• 16:17Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Because Edward is a boy and he has protectors. First, he had one of Jane Seymour's brothers. But the other brother, after marrying Catherine Parr, then tries to kidnap the king and shoots his spaniel. And you can't kidnap the king's spaniel.

• 16:31Kate Lister?

  Oh, no. Oh, no, you can't do that.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  No, no. So that, he falls and then.

• 16:35Kate Lister?

  Fair.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  So both of them fall. And then we have a new man, John Dudley comes in.

• 16:40Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Duke of Northumberland. And, you know, he doesn't want Mary to be in power. He's going, she's going to push him out.

• 16:48Kate Lister?

  Why doesn't he want Mary in power? Is it the Catholic thing again?

• 16:50Speaker 02

  He doesn't, he doesn't, he's very Protestant, he doesn't want a Catholic in. And he thinks that as soon as she turns up, oh, he's going to be out and she's going to put Catholics in. And they all panic that all these lovely Catholic lands they've helped themselves to, all these lovely monasteries, they'd have to give them back, you know, oh, but I'm loving my great big, you know, whopping piece of land. So he, is it him who pushes him, pushes Edward to get Lady Jane Grey into the succession? Because he has a reason. And that's that he's married his son to Lady Jane Grey. About, well, it's exactly the timing, but they get married on the 25th of May

• 17:32Speaker 02

  and Edward is changing the succession probably in June. So interesting.

• 17:38Kate Lister?

  Was there ever any chance?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  What a coincidence.

• 17:40Kate Lister?

  Isn't that, was there ever any chance that Lady Jane Grey was going to marry Edward before he got sick?

• 17:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:46Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  You are a genius.

• 17:48Kate Lister?

  Thanks.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  That was her destiny. That's what her family, who are very ambitious. So she's born into this family who are very learned. Lady Jane Grey is incredibly well-educated.

• 18:00Kate Lister?

  I just watched last night Susanna Loopscombe's excellent history hit documentary on Lady Jane Grey. It's fabulous, by the way. I had no idea she was as smart as she was, like, was she like eight languages?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  She's a genius and she's a scholar and she corresponds with the great scholars.

• 18:16Kate Lister?

  In Greek?

• 18:17Speaker 02

  In Latin, in Greek. And Roger Asham, who's the tutor of Elizabeth, he goes to see her. And, you know, she's such an impressive scholar. I mean, she would have been.

• 18:26Kate Lister?

  Like 15, 16, that blows my mind.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  She was, she was an earnest, learned lady. She would have come top in the A levels.

• 18:35Kate Lister?

  Oh, my God. Would you like, think back to what you were doing at 15? And like, she's, she's got command of possibly eight different languages, she's well, she's like corresponding with some of the greatest philosophers of the age at 15.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  She is a woman who loves learning. I mean, nowadays, she'd be a Pulitzer Prize, writing great books, running a university. But, and, you know, there's a lot of debate about her family because were they cruel to her? There's a report that she said, they pinch me, that I'm in hell, they're cruel to me. And some people doubt that. It's a lot of questions, but whatever happened, that her family did allow her to foster her love of learning. And she was very learned. And so she and Edward, who is also one of life's hard-working swats, I mean, they were both top of the class, they would have been a match made in heaven.

• 19:27Kate Lister?

  Surely, yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  And they're both very Protestant, they're both very learned.

• 19:31Kate Lister?

  Same age.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  And that, same age, and that's what her family wants above all. They want her to marry Edward and be the future queen. And that's why they put her into the household of the dodgiest man in history.

• 19:47Kate Lister?

  Oh, now that's up against some pretty stiff competition.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  You're right.

• 19:50Kate Lister?

  Who's that? Make your case.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Our dodgy, our, this is, I, we've just mentioned him, this is Thomas Seymour, who not long after Henry VIII dies.

• 20:01Kate Lister?

  Oh, him.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Marries Catherine Parr.

• 20:03Kate Lister?

  Oh, him, yeah, boo.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  So Henry dies in January and April, May Catherine Parr is married to Thomas Seymour.

• 20:10Kate Lister?

  That's right.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Who has love bombed her.

• 20:12Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  And she thinks he loves her.

• 20:15Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  He doesn't love her.

• 20:16Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  He just wants big power because she's the dowager queen. And he also wants power over her stepdaughter, Elizabeth, who lives with her. And when they marry, Thomas Seymour marries Catherine Parr.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  And he sexually harasses Elizabeth.

• 20:36Kate Lister?

  Without a doubt, it's all weird.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  It's horrific. He cuts up her nightdress. He tries to get into her room. He's sexually harassing her. I mean, to gain power over her.

• 20:46Kate Lister?

  But he can get in the seat, can't he? What a prick.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  So, but at the same time as all this, Lady Jane Grey is in that household.

• 20:52Kate Lister?

  Really?

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Which blows my mind. At the same time.

• 20:54Kate Lister?

  In the house where he's doing all this, this awfulness with Elizabeth, she's there too.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  She's there too.

• 21:00Kate Lister?

  Didn't know that.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  And the whole purpose is that she is supposed to, he's promised her parents that, oh, I'll get her. I'll get her married to Edward VI. I'll, I'll get her married.

• 21:11Kate Lister?

  Is there any suggestion ever that he was abusing her as well?

• 21:16Speaker 02

  I haven't seen any of it. She addresses him as a father. She calls him a nice father. So I think, no. I think he just wants to try and get Elizabeth in his clutches. So he can try and marry her eventually. I mean, he's just, I mean, he's the worst. So Lady Jane Grey is there and she attends Catherine Parr. She's very fond of Catherine Parr. She's there when Catherine Parr dies in childbirth. She's the chief mourner at Catherine Parr's funeral. And after this, after Catherine Parr has died, Lady Jane Grey remains in the household, which is not very appropriate when there's no woman there.

• 21:56Kate Lister?

  No.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  But the family want her to marry the king so much, they'll literally throw her into the jaw of the wolves.

• 22:04Kate Lister?

  All right, so.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  So she's been, she's not as naive as people say. I mean, she's been in that household. And it's not until basically, you know, he, he is really on the outs that finally her family think, oh, yes. This, uh, this man isn't good. Maybe we should take her back.

• 22:18Kate Lister?

  Just pause that thought. We're going to go to a break and we're going to be right back.

• 22:35Kate Lister?

  In case you weren't aware, World Mental Health Day takes place in October. And I don't know about you, but I'm taking this as a reminder to practise some proper self-care. Saying no to plans I don't want to go to, guilt-free snacking and Halloween movie marathons. It's also the perfect time to check in with yourself and your mental health. For many, it can mean taking that step and speaking to a professional who can help and guide you through any difficulties you're having. But often when you try to do that, it's still way harder than it should be. A lot of online therapy platforms don't accept insurance at all, which means even during a month focused on mental health, you're stuck paying out of pocket or signing up for an expensive monthly subscription.

• 23:19Kate Lister?

  This is where Rula comes in. They partner with over 120 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Because the whole point of World Mental Health Day is making sure people actually get help, not just think about it. And Rula sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure your care is actually helping you move forward. With World Mental Health Day this October, it's a good reminder that taking care of your mental health can start with one step. Visit rula.com/shets to get started. That's R U L A dot com slash S H E E T S.

• 24:01Kate Lister?

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• 24:08Speaker 01

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• 25:34Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right. It took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that.

• 26:03Kate Lister?

  Right, let's get on with it.

• 26:16Kate Lister?

  So it seems like that she's on a course, then you're going to marry the king. It seems like from day dot, her parents have been gunning for this one. And to be honest, she sounds like a really good match. If I was in charge of this, I'd probably go, yeah, her. They're both hardcore Protestants. Where does, how does she end up married to a Dudley then?

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Our Edward falls very ill at the, at the beginning of 1553. He falls very ill.

• 26:40Kate Lister?

  Ill enough then for them to go, he's not going to make it.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  He's not going to make it. Now, how ill he gets at very, April he rallies. How ill he is in May is a moot point, but I think he's pretty ill. I think that, you know, with monarchs, people are saying, they're fine, they're fine, they're totally fine. Oh no, oh no, not, oh, actually they're not fine. Oh, they're dead. So we don't like to admit it. We, none of us like to admit it, do we? And we don't like to tell the monarch that, sorry.

• 27:05Kate Lister?

  Yeah, we're staring down the barrel of the end here.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Time's up. And Dudley marries his son, his fourth son, he's got a lot of sons, to Jane. In Durham House, a big Tudor wedding. There's two other weddings going on at the same time. One of Jane's sisters, one of Dudley's daughters, they're all getting married. It's a triple wedding. And it's this giant Gantik wedding and Jane is sent a purple gown. So only royals wear purple. She's wearing purple and the king sends her huge amounts of jewels. That's quite significant. So all looks as if our man Dudley has got everything. Edward's dying. Jane's going to be the queen and she's married to his son.

• 27:46Kate Lister?

  That Jane is going to be the queen then?

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Well, this is about the time when Edward is, is he being pressured to do it according to his own accord? When, when he's making this device for the succession. He probably makes it in June. But I'm sure he's been discussing it and has, I think, we'll never know. I think Dudley's been pressurising him. Dudley's been pressuring him, saying, you can't, you love, you can't have Mary. Look at this. And anyway, Henry VIII changed the succession. Henry VIII cut out Margaret. You just cut out Mary. Anyway, she's illegitimate. Mary's illegitimate. Elizabeth's illegitimate. Just get rid of them. Get rid of them. And let's put in that nice cousin Jane. And oh my goodness, she's married to my son.

• 28:28Kate Lister?

  Look at that.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  But not a very good wedding though, Kate. There's a hot salad that's left out. And lots of people get food poisoning, including Guildford Dudley. So the groom gets food poisoning.

• 28:39Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's not a good start.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  So we don't know when the consummation might have happened.

• 28:43Kate Lister?

  Do we know what Jane made of all this? Because it feels like one minute it's just like, right, you're going to marry the king. You're going to marry the king. You're going to marry the king.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  You're in the household of a dodgy sexual harasser.

• 28:51Kate Lister?

  You're in a sexual harasser's house, but you're definitely going to marry a king. Oh no, you're not. You're going to marry this guy called Dudley and he's got food poisoning. It's like, what? Was she okay with this? Was she, was she on board with it? Do we have any sort of sense of, if she thought this was a good idea?

• 29:04Speaker 02

  We don't have any record of Jane's feelings until she became queen. But I think that she would have expected that it was her job to marry.

• 29:14Kate Lister?

  She probably would, wouldn't she?

• 29:15Speaker 02

  And onwards she goes. And she doesn't know at this point about the device for the succession. She doesn't know about any of these ideas. So she just thinks she's getting married to Dudley.

• 29:28Kate Lister?

  Stay away from the salad. There we go.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Stay away from the salad. Mary will be queen. And that's going to be her life. She's going to be a Tudor wife.

• 29:37Kate Lister?

  Would have been nice to have married the king, but never mind.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Never mind. Now I'm going to marry this still fourth son of a random man who's going to be out on his ear when Mary comes to be thrown. But, oh, well, make the best of it.

• 29:48Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  And, oh, no, I can't constantly make the marriage because everyone's eaten this hot salad and all had food poisoning. Whoops. So everyone's ill. They've all got food poisoning, but Jane hasn't got food poisoning. She's quite tough. Our man, Dudley, Dudley's father, John Dudley, the Duke of Northumberland, he hasn't got food poisoning. And he and Edward really plan that Jane is now going to be queen and.

• 30:16Kate Lister?

  They could have given her a heads up or something.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Well, there's someone mentioned it to her, but she just thinks they're joking.

• 30:21Kate Lister?

  Well, you would, wouldn't you?

• 30:22Speaker 02

  She, I mean, she knows she's in line. She knows, but, but she says, I'm in line after Mary and Elizabeth. And it's interesting, isn't it, that Edward chucks out Mary, but he also chucks out Elizabeth, who's Protestant.

• 30:34Kate Lister?

  She was Protestant, yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  I guess he thinks, well, if I've said that Mary's illegitimate, when everyone's like, no, absolutely, she was not illegitimate. We all know that was a load of rubbish from Henry VIII. And then I better chuck out Elizabeth on the same.

• 30:46Kate Lister?

  Yeah, in for a penny.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  And that's what makes me think that Dudley was behind this because it's not to Dudley's advantage if Elizabeth is put in place because.

• 30:57Kate Lister?

  No, this is all coming up Dudley, isn't it, this?

• 31:00Speaker 02

  That's what makes me think that he has a hand in this. And indeed, you know, we see some of the later, what happens later. So next thing is he actually see Edward writes this and it shows he's quite ill because his handwriting is very bad. It's sort of like, oh, I might devise for the succession. And then the thing is, it's not made law. It's not passed through Parliament.

• 31:23Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  It's and, but what happens is they get a hundred men to agree to it. And these hundred men later say, I was bullied. I was bullied by Dudley. Dudley made me. Which does also make you think that Dudley has got a hand in this. So they all agree, a hundred men, dignitaries agree this device for the succession. And that's going to be the case because Dudley wants Lady Jane Grey, who's now his daughter in law, to be queen. Because, I mean, she'll be the first ever queen.

• 31:53Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Because at this time, as we know, women have no possessions after marriage, marriage, nothing.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  You know, even their socks and, socks and combs, the stockings, the stockings and their combs and then, you know, a bracelet. Nothing is theirs. Everything is owned by their husband. A woman has no possessions.

• 32:14Kate Lister?

  Oh, look at that.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  We see that until the Married Women's Property Act, in which it's, oh, married women can own their own things. I always find it so touching, don't you, Kate, that, you know, you see these wills from these nice guys who say, I'm going to leave my wife her dresses, her shoes.

• 32:29Kate Lister?

  Yeah, thanks for that.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Her combs, because otherwise they're not hers.

• 32:33Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  So Lady Jane Grey has nothing of her own. Well, she's now Lady Jane Dudley. She, she just, Guildford has a lot. You know, food poisoning, suffering Guildford has a lot, right down to her shoes. So that means he gets the country. He gets everything. He gets everything and daddy, daddy can pull the strings. So it, this is a Machiavellian plot. And in fact, the imperial ambassadors who support Mary, the Holy Roman Empire, they're saying, oh, I think there's been a plan to get Mary out of the way.

• 33:03Kate Lister?

  So they knew it at the time as well.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  They do because the spies are out, but it's secret. It is secret. This device for the succession is secret. No one knows about it. Your average man trundling around London thinks, oh, no, I've heard Edward, Edward isn't well. Well, it'll be Mary. It'll be Mary.

• 33:18Kate Lister?

  And even Jane doesn't know about it.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Even Jane doesn't know about it. Dudley, Guildford Dudley probably does, but we don't really know what he knows either. These are, he's, he's just a year or so older than Jane. These are teenagers, fifteen, sixteen pawns on the board of powerful men. Edward gets iller and iller. And unfortunately, he's put up to show people that he's looking better and he actually looks awful and everyone's thinking.

• 33:44Kate Lister?

  Okay, yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Oh, no. Edward's on the way out. Mary's going to be queen. And Edward dies on the sixth of July, in, in the, late in the evening, about eight P M. And he's very, in a very bad way. You really have to feel sorry for him. He's really suffering, the poor child. And his death is kept secret. No one knows. It's kept totally secret. And then on the ninth of July, Jane is told to go to Scion House, which is owned by our man Dudley, the Duke of Northumberland. And then she waits there for ages on her own psychological warfare, I'd say.

• 34:23Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  And then they come in, Dudley and her parents and some digni, you know, they come and say, you're queen now.

• 34:29Kate Lister?

  Shit. Can you even imagine that?

• 34:32Speaker 02

  She says, what?

• 34:33Kate Lister?

  You'd think you would be, it was a joke. It was a practical joke.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Where's, where's the hidden camera?

• 34:37Kate Lister?

  Right, exactly. Like that's, what, do we have any records of what she did or said?

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Now we do. She is horrified. She's devastated. She, she falls to the floor crying. She says, no, no, no, no. It's, it's the, the Mary, Mary, Mary is the queen. I'm not the queen. She's really shocked and heartbroken. And that, I mean, you might think, oh, well, I'm fourth in line. Maybe I've got a chance, but she was heartbroken.

• 35:03Kate Lister?

  I would be terrified. I mean, you know what that means.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  You know what that means. And she is heartbroken, of course, because I think she did genuinely love her cousin. She loved Edward VI. She would have known him at court and I'm sure she did actually hope to marry him at one point and think of him as a future husband. So she's heartbroken at the death of the king, but she's really devastated that her father in law has told her, you are queen now. And she's heartbroken, devastating, devastated. But they say to her, you must, you are the queen, you must be the queen. And this is what the king said. The king said, you're queen. You have to obey. And she's so dutiful and she loved Edward. So she gives in and agrees.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  She's like, okay. And next morning on the 10th of July, so Edward's been dead four days now. It is announced and she's taken, taken through London and she's announced as queen. Taken off to the tower where you go before your crown.

• 36:04Kate Lister?

  Is it true that like, like when they announced it to the crowds in London, it was just sort of mute silence of just everyone just like, what?

• 36:10Speaker 02

  What?

• 36:11Kate Lister?

  What? Who?

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Who? Exactly.

• 36:13Kate Lister?

  That's not a good sign, is it?

• 36:14Speaker 02

  You and I, we're trundling around, we're heading over to get, you know, some pig's heads for our dinner. We're just trundling to the pig's head shop, you and I trundling past. And then we hear this announcement saying, the king is dead. Well, we said, oh, poor thing, but we expected that.

• 36:27Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  The king is dead and everyone expected Mary.

• 36:31Kate Lister?

  Long live the Queen Jane. What?

• 36:33Speaker 02

  I know. Oh, who?

• 36:35Kate Lister?

  Who?

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Who's she? And there are actually these sort of foreign comments. She was saying, who's this Jane person?

• 36:42Kate Lister?

  Oh, it's not going well.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  You know, Dudley has, he's a Svengali. He manipulated, I would say, that young king, manipulated that young king's sort of earnest teenage sympathies. He's a teenager. He wants to change the world, manipulated him into pushing, uh, you know, basically, he, he, he's expecting now his son to be the king because.

• 37:05Kate Lister?

  So the plan is, is that Jane's going to be queen, but we're basically going to sideline her because now my son's king.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Joint monarchy, king, yeah. That's the idea. And that's what's going to happen. And, you know, uh, uh, you know, this is totally his plan, but he's made two vital mistakes. Number one.

• 37:23Kate Lister?

  Two.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Well, many vital mistakes. His super plan, he got a hundred people to agree to this, hundred dignitaries. But they didn't publicize it earlier.

• 37:33Kate Lister?

  Dodgy that, no.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Because perhaps had they started a run up and said, everyone, this is what the king wants. He's still alive. This is what he wants.

• 37:42Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  It might have been better received. The other big mistake he's made is Mary has not been secured. She is still, Mary and Elizabeth are still free, ambling, wandering about. So the two people who people are expecting to see Queen One, Queen Two are free. And everyone is totally shocked by this. Jane is queen. So you and I, you know, are trundling, are 16th century pig head buyers are shocked and everyone is mute because people believe that even though Mary is Catholic, she is Henry VIII's daughter.

• 38:22Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  It's blood.

• 38:23Kate Lister?

  That's the way it goes.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Blood triumphs, blood, blood wins out and she is the king's daughter. And you know, it's interesting, Kate, would there have been more acceptance of Lady Jane Grey? Well, Jane Dudley or Jane Gil, you know, Guildford Dudley's wife, Jane Dudley, if she'd been man, if she'd been a man. If she, if it had been John, if she had been the heir's male, if she had been John, would she have been more accepted? I think that's possible. I think.

• 38:53Kate Lister?

  It's possible.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  I think that's possible. People might have said, okay.

• 38:55Kate Lister?

  He has a penis. That's fine.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. He can lead us into battle.

• 38:59Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  But as it is, people say, it is Mary. It's Mary. And she, I, I think what John Dudley has also forgotten is, yes, Henry VIII is a right wombat, but he was the king. He was seen as the ultimate king. And Catherine of Aragon was incredibly popular, particularly in London. They loved her. They loved her. And a lot of people still alive. It's only 20 years since, you know.

• 39:27Kate Lister?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Only 20 years since Catherine of Aragon was finally pushed out. They remember her. A lot of people remember her. A lot of people support her. And they know that Mary got treated badly once. They don't want to see it again.

• 39:41Kate Lister?

  This is like the finale of Game of Thrones when suddenly Bran comes, turns up and takes over everything. And you're just sat there going, but that's,

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Who?

• 39:47Kate Lister?

  Who the hell is this guy? That's not what's supposed to happen.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  The public need a run up. You know, we, we see these in, in leadership context, in, in politics, you need to have a run up. You can't just pop out of nowhere. That's why, you know, we've got Count Binface. We, we recognize. Count Binface has not just popped out of nowhere. He's been going for a long time. So we recognize him. It was a vital, of course Dudley didn't put out the device for the succession.

• 40:14Kate Lister?

  No, of course he didn't.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Because he thought that, you know, there might be.

• 40:17Kate Lister?

  He wanted it all in one big fell swoop, didn't he? Just to go, look, she's queen now. This is a signature. We've got loads of other people's signs. What the king wanted, we're all just going to move on. It's fine.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  I said so.

• 40:27Kate Lister?

  I said so.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  I said so. And people don't believe it. Of course they don't believe it. So.

• 40:30Kate Lister?

  How did Mary take this?

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Poor old Jane's in the tower waiting to be crowned. Mary, oh, she's not happy. She says, I'm sorry.

• 40:36Kate Lister?

  I beg your pardon. I beg your finest pardon.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Excuse.

• 40:40Kate Lister?

  I'm sorry, for a moment there, I thought you said Jane was the queen.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Mary's been waiting for this for a long time. She's 37. She is very, very, well, she's known Game of Thrones. She's a mature woman. She says, I'm sorry. It's me. But initially, uh, the people says, oh, don't worry, Mary, you know, don't bother. There's nothing you can do. Dudley's in charge. He's got, he's got the army, he's got the navy, he's got everything, he's got the tower. What can you do, you weedy little person? And I mean Dudley's Dudley, Dudley and the council, they've got used to thinking about Mary as this right loser. You know, a real, yeah, real wimp, wet old Mary, she's always crying and going to Catholic mass. Oh, she's wet. She hasn't got a husband. Oh, she's useless. She can't do anything. So they just dismiss her.

• 41:28Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  And but Dudley did make the mistake of not grabbing her before Edward died. He actually did invite her.

• 41:36Kate Lister?

  Tried, didn't he?

• 41:37Speaker 02

  He did. He said, oh, come to Edward's deathbed to say goodbye to your brother. And Mary does love her brother, so she goes out. Elizabeth's going to go as well. And Elizabeth thinks, oh, no. And then Mary thinks, someone says, I think that's a trap.

• 41:50Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  So she doesn't go. What Mary does is she heads, she has estates in Norfolk, a lot of estates in Norfolk and Suffolk. And that really is where she starts to assemble her troops. Because our man Dudley is not popular in that area. There's been rebellions against enclosures. He's not popular. He, he was a leader against them. So she gathers troops in East Anglia, and I, I love this, that she's gathering troops. And she says to the Holy Roman Emperor, could you give me a hand? I'm Catholic. I want to get the throne. It's my throne. And he says, oh, no, Mary, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. It's not going to win, not going to win. But she is a warrior queen. Mary, who's so often dismissed by history, she's a warrior queen.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  She fights for that throne. She collects together thousands of men.

• 42:39Kate Lister?

  And he's also underestimated just how popular Mary was.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Very popular. And Mary doesn't know this, you know, she doesn't know how popular she is in London, that people are going around whispering, saying, oh, it should be Mary, it should be Mary. What's going on? And no matter what Dudley says, you know, I'll chop off your ears, I'll, you know, chop, chop your head off. People love Mary. So Jane's in the tower. Jane's in the tower and she's being told she has to be queen. And the crown is brought to her because she's queen. And the crown is brought to her. And she said, I like it not, but she has said, it's your duty, you have to wear it. And Nicola Tallis, who's written this marvelous book on Lady Jane Grey, she makes this really fascinating point

• 43:22Speaker 02

  that Jane has the jewels brought to her, the great jewels of state as queens get to have some splendid stuff in there. Catherine of Aragon stuff, all kinds of splendid stuff. But Nicola says, the research shows, her research shows that they bring Jane quite a lot of broken old stuff. So they actually keep some of the good bits back. I.e. they're not really sure how things are going to go. So she gets some dodgy jewellery, but she does get the crown. Jane gets the crown, she is crowned. And then she's told, the Lord Treasurer says, we're going to make one for your husband, for Guildford. So he can be crowned too. And Jane, I mean, this is, this is amazing. She's like Powerpuff Girl.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  She says, no, no, no, I'm the queen. He can't be crowned.

• 44:09Kate Lister?

  Jane.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  I know.

• 44:10Kate Lister?

  That must have really fucked them off.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Taken so much courage. She's at the mercy of her parents who, you know, I think, whether or not they were mean to her in childhood, they're mean to her now because they see ambition. They're pushing her into it. They forced her to marry this guy, fourth son of Dudley. Now they forced her to be queen, her father-in-law is forcing her. And Jane says, no, no, no, no, he can't be king. I'm queen.

• 44:35Kate Lister?

  I'm the queen.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  I'm the queen.

• 44:36Kate Lister?

  Well played, Jane.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  And what a precedent. This is often undermined, undervalued, I think. What a precedent for female monarchy, for Mary, who, yes, Philip of Spain is a king, but he's not a joint monarch. He's like, he's, you know, that's not how it works. She is the queen and Elizabeth as well. And then Queen Anne, who does not have a joint monarch either, you know, Mary the second. She says she's with Mary with William, but essentially it is Jane who sets down this precedent. That the queen's husband is not a king, even though legally he rules over her as husbands do. She sets down this precedent. Oh, and that doesn't go down well. It doesn't go down well. Mother-in-law is particularly cross about this.

• 45:19Kate Lister?

  I bet.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  So mother-in-law says, Dudley, you don't give Jane the marriage bed. No, you can't have it. You deny her the marriage bed. So that's his only power is saying.

• 45:30Kate Lister?

  Oh, no, boo hoo. Husband doesn't want to have sex with me. How terrible.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Especially when he's always getting food poisoning.

• 45:37Kate Lister?

  Oh, no, say it ain't so.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  And, and that is a power because Jane needs that air. So, but.

• 45:44Kate Lister?

  I guess, yes, you're right. You're right.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  But, but Jane says, oh, no, you can't go. I'm queen now. I'm commanding you. I mean, she can't really.

• 45:52Kate Lister?

  See, this isn't a weakened feeble individual.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, mother-in-law, you can't behave like that. You can't just pop off. I'm queen. And all these people who tried to control her hadn't realised that the role of queen itself suddenly puts over all of them.

• 46:08Kate Lister?

  Whoops a daisy.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, oh. And I'm sure she could probably command Guildford to the marriage bed if she wanted.

• 46:15Kate Lister?

  So, so far, so terrible, quite frankly. Mary is now marching on London and as she is gathering forces, more and more people are joining her. There must have been a moment of just all of these people have, what is effectively a coup that they've staged, just going shit.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Mary is incredible. Mary is incredible. She's had very chronic illness, very poor health. She's been disav- devalued, pushed out, excluded from court, treated very badly, separated from her mother. And she is now the warrior queen. She should be up there with our great warrior queens like Brudica. But that's often dismissed. And so Mary's in Norfolk, her troops are assembling. And then they realise in London, they've got to do something about her. Got to do something about her. So Dudley says to Jane's father, would you mind leading an army and going to get Mary? And Jane's father says, oh, no, I can't, can't do it.

• 47:11Kate Lister?

  Right, okay.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  And all the other men say, oh, no, I'd rather not.

• 47:15Kate Lister?

  I'll just, I'll stay here and make sure that everything at home is okay.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, washing, I'm just washing my hair, you know, sorry, I've got an appointment in my phyllo fax, can't go. Dudley has to set off to try and seize Mary, set off to east, go east to Norfolk, Suffolk, to go and get Mary. But the further he gets, the more his men start to desert him because they're like, oh, yeah, we don't like you, we don't like you.

• 47:39Kate Lister?

  They're defecting en route, aren't they?

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Defecting en route. The navy gives, the navy gives up because they haven't been paid. And Mary's agents say, oh, we'll pay you. And they say, okay, okay, off we come. And, and so also the minute that big man's not there, the minute that big old Dudley's not there to control matters, suddenly everyone, all these men, or the Privy Council, everyone who agreed to Jane being queen, suddenly as soon as he's gone, they're like, oh. Um, was it actually a rather stupid idea?

• 48:08Kate Lister?

  Yes, it was. It was a ridiculous idea.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  But did I say yes to this? I didn't mean to. Oh, no, I didn't mean to. Maybe, maybe, maybe we shouldn't. And listen to them all shouting for Mary. Maybe we shouldn't have done this.

• 48:21Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  And they all flee. They all leave Jane. It's like rats on a sinking ship.

• 48:28Kate Lister?

  A sixteen-year-old girl on her own.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Leave her. And basically, you know, only just, just not long after Dudley's gone, they all, on the nineteenth of July, they all sign a form, well, the sort of, sign a document really, saying, oh, um, Mary's the queen. Yeah.

• 48:46Kate Lister?

  Yes, we'll just move along, forget that little blip ever happened.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, Mary's the queen. And so they just totally, the minute Dudley's not there to strong-arm them and push them around, they totally change their mind, which also suggests that perhaps Dudley did bully them all into signing.

• 49:03Kate Lister?

  Yeah, without a doubt.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  I know that people say, oh, well, you know, they were men and they, maybe ETC, perhaps he did. So suddenly they're like, oh, no, we want Mary now. We didn't mean it. And so poor Jane is left in the tower with her husband, with her parents, with her mother-in-law and her father. Now, what do you think, Kate? Do you think this is the time when her father starts saying, oh, poor Jane, we were mean to you, we put you up to this?

• 49:25Kate Lister?

  I don't think you're going to tell me that it is.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  No, he's, he blames her, tells her it's all her fault.

• 49:30Kate Lister?

  For fuck's sake.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  He rips the cloth of state, say, why did you do this? You put yourself above us all. And Jane says, no, no.

• 49:38Kate Lister?

  Oh, fuck you.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  You did, you did, you told me to do this. So he really starts to blame Jane now, her father. And, and, and Jane's just friendless. She's totally friendless because her parents now say, well, they're just throwing her under the Tudor bus.

• 49:57Kate Lister?

  Yeah, they are. They really are.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  And, and you and I, we, we, we, we're out shopping again. We're out going to get some, you know, sixteen-century snacks. And we're, we're hearing the latest news is that Mary is now queen. And we're, we're thrilled.

• 50:11Kate Lister?

  We're going to hear more about that in just a minute, but we're going to take a break.

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• 52:37Kate Lister?

  Mary must have just been able to march into London and just go, "Thank you very much, I think I'll have that crown put on my head."

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. It's a bloodless coup, so she doesn't-

• 52:45Kate Lister?

  Just literally just waltzes in.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Our man Dudley gets, he gives in, he just sort of surrenders and gives in. Mary takes her time, marches into London in August.

• 52:57Kate Lister?

  We're all waving our banners.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  We're all waving. Elizabeth in her train, Anne of Cleves is there as well. It's a festival of female power. Mary coming into London, everyone waving, everyone smiling, everyone saying, "Marvelous, Mary." You and I are saying, "Well, we said it all along, didn't we?"

• 53:10Kate Lister?

  We did, we absolutely did.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  We said it all along. We heard it on that day, heard it on the 10th of July, and we thought it was total rubbish. Now the 19th of July, right.

• 53:18Kate Lister?

  All is right with the world.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  All is right. And Jane has been in the royal apartments in the Tower of London, the royal apartments where Anne Boleyn stayed before she was queen, then stayed before she was executed.

• 53:31Kate Lister?

  It's kind of handy she was in the Tower of London.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Yes, it was. Not have to far to move. But they move her out of the royal apartments because that's where Mary needs to occupy before she gets crowned. And they put her in the gentleman jailer's house. So they, I imagine there's a bit of scrubbing and moving the furniture around.

• 53:49Kate Lister?

  Oh, it's so embarrassing. The whole thing is, like, Jane just sat there in the remnants of this awful coup with nobody around her, just, I mean, did she face Mary at any point? Do we know if they had, like, did Mary come in and just be like, "Jane, what the fuck?" Or is, like, did they have no contact with one another?

• 54:05Speaker 02

  She longed, Jane longed to speak to Mary.

• 54:09Kate Lister?

  She would, wouldn't you? Just to go, "I am so sorry about this."

• 54:11Speaker 02

  "I'm so sorry, it was my dad and my father-in-law, I'm so sorry."

• 54:14Kate Lister?

  It was a terrible idea.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Really, I never wanted to. And I know I signed documents, Jana Regina, but I didn't mean to actually, the advisers come in and put Jana non Regina, they'd come in and change those documents. So Jane really wants to speak to Mary, but Mary does not speak to her. However, Mary is merciful. Now, this woman, who is called Bloody Mary, is actually, I'd say, the most merciful of all the Tudors. Just look at the thousands that Henry VIII executed. Just look, Elizabeth I, quite a lot of people as well, Edward VI's pious little boy, but 5,500 people around died in the Preb rebellions in Devon and Cornwall.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Mary is a merciful queen. And even though the Holy Roman Emperor is saying, "Oh, get rid of Jane, get rid of Jane," she says, "I don't want to."

• 55:07Kate Lister?

  That's quite telling as well.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  She said, "I think she's been manipulated."

• 55:10Kate Lister?

  But even at the time, they knew this. And Mary knew it enough that this isn't Jane's responsibility for it to go, "Well, I'm not gonna lop her head off."

• 55:19Speaker 02

  So she knocks the head off Dudley, our man Dudley.

• 55:22Kate Lister?

  Right, so she knows who's to blame then.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  She knows who's to blame, she knows it's him. He gets executed, even though at the last minute he changes religion and says, "I'm a Catholic now, everyone, I'm a Catholic."

• 55:31Kate Lister?

  Good for you.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. Who cares? Bye. So he gets executed, but the rest of them stay alive. Jane, Guildford, Jane's parent, the whole lot of them.

• 55:44Kate Lister?

  It's a weird one, legally, because the king did say, there's documents, I mean, it's all a bit weird and it was signed under weird conditions, but that's, I think that's quite a strong legal argument, is for it to go, "Look, the king did say this is what he wanted."

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Even though he didn't get it passed through Parliament, so it is illegal if it's not passed through Parliament. It's just a little letter.

• 56:01Kate Lister?

  Parliament hadn't convened yet.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  Well, it's true. He would do it in the autumn.

• 56:05Kate Lister?

  He died before it convened. So there's, I think that there's enough wiggle room for Mary to go, "All right, just don't do it again."

• 56:11Speaker 02

  And I think she really hated John Dudley. She knew he was the bad guy. He'd come to capture her, and she, I think, felt merciful to Jane. Jane is her, I mean, Jane's related to her, she's her cousin.

• 56:24Kate Lister?

  And she's 16?

• 56:25Speaker 02

  She's a young girl, she's 16. And also, I think Mary knows that people will look askance on her for executing a young woman. Execute these men, "Oh, fine, oh, yes." You and I, as our sort of average Tudor shoppers-

• 56:43Kate Lister?

  We'd be there going, "Oh, it's all worked out nice."

• 56:45Speaker 02

  Yes, we'd be saying, "Well, yes, get rid of him, Dudley, he did it." But, "Oh, I felt sorry for Jane, poor girl, she didn't really understand." And, and so it's quite funny, the Imperial Ambassador, you know, the Holy Roman Emperor said, "Oh, I can't, I can't help you, Mary. Sorry, I can't send any ships, I'm a better lot, sorry." As soon as Mary gets the throne, I think it's so funny, he says, "Oh, I was getting them ready, I was coming, I was coming to help." You know how it is when one gets-

• 57:11Kate Lister?

  Yes, yes, "I was literally just on my way, the truck is in the post."

• 57:15Speaker 02

  "Oh, yes, you know, I didn't mean to say those things that you wouldn't make it." I think we've seen this a lot, and it happens a lot, doesn't it? "I didn't mean to say behind your back that you weren't going to do it."

• 57:23Kate Lister?

  It does.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  "I was always being-"

• 57:25Kate Lister?

  He was always back-aware.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  "I was always being, I was always backing you." So Mary's got everything now, she's the queen, Holy Roman Emperor says she's marvelous, and the Holy Roman Emperor says, "Shouldn't you get rid of Jane?" And Mary says, "No, I think she's fine. Let's put her in the tower, keep her in the tower, keep Guildford in the tower. It's okay." Her parents pretty much get let off. Now, she puts Jane on trial, she really has to, and Jane is found guilty of treason because she did accept the throne, she did sign documents-

• 57:51Kate Lister?

  She did do that stuff.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Jane, the queen. But I think what Mary's going to do is basically leave Jane in the tower and eventually let her out.

• 58:01Kate Lister?

  Privileged obscurity.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  Eventually let her out, after a while, she let her out, as long as she promises to sit quietly and not do anything. So very merciful. Now, why doesn't that happen?

• 58:13Kate Lister?

  Because it doesn't happen. That sounds like we've wrapped that all up in a nice little bow, there we go, that's-

• 58:17Speaker 02

  That's it, Jane can live to, because the interesting thing, of course, is fascinating, isn't it, Kate? That if Jane had been allowed to live, she might have come to the throne.

• 58:26Kate Lister?

  Oh, God, yes, might have.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  Because when Mary dies childless, Elizabeth died childless, I mean, Jane would have been quite old when, you know, Elizabeth-

• 58:34Kate Lister?

  It could have happened. She'd have just been there going, "For fuck's sake, not again."

• 58:37Speaker 02

  If Jane's born in 1537 and Elizabeth dies in 1603, Jane is nearly 70, but she could have been the queen, certainly.

• 58:45Kate Lister?

  Or her children.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Or her sons or her children, exactly. So Jane-

• 58:49Kate Lister?

  Not to be.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Possibly, she could have been Jane I, but not for very long because she would have been 17.

• 58:54Kate Lister?

  Jane I brackets, again.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Again, yes, Jane I point 1.5. But it's Jane's dad. Now, Jane's dad is a bad person, we don't like Jane's dad. He's an idiot. Jane's dad, already he was nasty to her, tore down the cloth of state, said, "It was all you, it was all you."

• 59:12Kate Lister?

  What does he do?

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Threw her under the Tudor bus. Well, all he has to do, Jane's dad is out of the tower, he's free, his wife's free, all he has to do is just sit quietly and say, "I love Mary, marvelous, hooray."

• 59:24Kate Lister?

  He had one job.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  One job.

• 59:26Kate Lister?

  Shut up.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Mary's great, yes, splendid.

• 59:29Kate Lister?

  He doesn't say Mary's great.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  No, there is a rebellion against Mary marrying Philip of Spain, Wyatt's Rebellion.

• 59:36Kate Lister?

  Right, yes.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  And Henry, Jane's father, gets involved in it, and he becomes a key part of it, a key part of this rebellion against Mary, which is trying to depose her and put Elizabeth on the throne. And so once Jane's father is part of this rebellion, he has to be executed, Mary has to execute him, she has no choice.

• 59:58Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  And she has to execute Jane and Guildford as well. There's just, you know-

• 1:00:03Kate Lister?

  He's made it impossible for her, basically, hasn't, because he's just proven that Jane is always going to be a figurehead for radicals and for rebellions.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  She's always going to be a figurehead, she's always going to be there, she's always going to be troublesome, and so Mary-

• 1:00:19Kate Lister?

  And her family won't behave.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Has to execute her. So Mary, therefore-

• 1:00:24Kate Lister?

  Oh, shit, Jane must have been so angry with her dad.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  God, yeah, what a prick. She, the thing is also Jane doesn't exactly help herself at this point, because she has said, "Oh, Mary is merciful," but she does keep-

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Talking a lot about how marvellous it is to be Protestant. It's not the way things are now.

• 1:00:46Kate Lister?

  Read the room, Jane.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, read the room. Just dampen it down.

• 1:00:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Don't go on and on and on about how amazing it is to be Protestant. I admire her further.

• 1:00:53Kate Lister?

  She could use a PR person.

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  But if she played the extreme long game, her Protestant child could have come to the throne.

• 1:01:00Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  But yes, Jane gets very intensely Protestant. I mean, she's been through a lot.

• 1:01:06Kate Lister?

  She's fervently, committedly Protestant.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  So she has to be executed and Guildford is executed first. He asks Jane if they could meet before he's executed. She says, no, it'll only upset us more. But she does see him being brought back, his broken body being brought back in the tower. And she says, oh, Guildford, Guildford. She's heartbroken. She's devastated. And then she goes to the block herself, dressed in black, all dignity. I mean, what strength she must have had. You see your husband's broken body come back in the cart and you know that's what's going to happen.

• 1:01:46Kate Lister?

  I dread, I just, I can't even imagine. I read these stories about how these people go to their death with such dignity and such composure. And I just imagine me like shrieking and screaming and like fingernails being left on the door frame, having to drag me off. And then if you got me up on that block, I would not go with dignity. I would slag everyone off.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:02:04Kate Lister?

  It'd be appalling.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  It was him. My dad, the whole lot of you.

• 1:02:08Kate Lister?

  Absolute dickhead, all of them. And I would, but she doesn't do any of that.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  She is pure dignity. She is praying. She's in her black dress and she goes there and she says, you know, it's quite interesting to me because the speech she gives, she says, good, good people. I'm come here to die according to the law, essentially, which is very similar to the reported speech of Anne Boleyn, very similar. A very interesting coincidence there, or perhaps it's simply the, you know, they both use the form. But essentially Jane is saying, rather like Anne Boleyn said, Anne Boleyn basically says, I'm come here to die according to the law. But hey, I'm not confessing my sins up here. I'm not saying I had sex with, you know, all these chaps. I'm not saying that.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Jane is also saying, I'm not confessing my sins. I'm not saying it was all my fault. So she does, you know, she, she, she, I think she goes there seeing herself as this Protestant martyr, as this powerful woman, I think, who had everything taken from her. And the composure of a teenage girl who wouldn't even be taking her A levels now. She's, she's been married, she's been widowed, she's had everyone desert her. And now she's being executed by her cousin, who we presume they would have met at court. They would have known each other. And she blindfolds and when she puts the head down, she can't find the block and she's, her hands, she can't find it. She's panicking.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Catherine Howard, as we remember, Henry VIII's wife, she practised, she practised. Anne Boleyn didn't have to practise because it was the French swordsman. But Jane panics. She just panics at the last minute. And she is executed. She's helped to find the block. She's executed. And Lady Jane Grey, Jane the First, is no more. It is the execution of a queen. Lady Jane Grey was executed and Mary, Queen of Scots, will be executed. But Lady Jane Grey is executed as a queen and Mary really had no choice.

• 1:04:14Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  And Mary leaves Jane's mother alive, Jane's sisters alive, you know, Mary.

• 1:04:20Kate Lister?

  You can tell she didn't want to do this.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  Mary's mother ends up in the court. I mean, like, keep your enemies close, but she ends up in the court and later Mary's her writing instructor.

• 1:04:31Kate Lister?

  Oh, well played. Okay, I'm glad that she had a happy ending.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Awful husband.

• 1:04:34Kate Lister?

  Well done. Okay.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  So Lady Jane Grey really, you know, she is a sacrifice to these powerful men's ambition. But within that, she, that's incredible moment where she stakes her own claim to queenship. And she says, oh, no, I'm queen. I, I command. And my husband is not being a joint monarch. No way.

• 1:04:58Kate Lister?

  So there's a final question then. Do you think she'd have been a good queen, Queen Jane? I mean, if Mary had got the news and gone, oh, well, thanks for letting me know about that. That's, let me know when the coronation is.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  Well, I was feeling a bit burnt out after this, you know, miserable 37 years I've had. I might just put my feet up now and see how it goes.

• 1:05:15Kate Lister?

  Yeah, exactly. Excellent. I'll be in my, I'll be in my palace if anyone wants me.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Exactly. I'll be in my palace if anyone wants me. Yes. I'll just do a, do a bit of, you know, carry on with some embroidery.

• 1:05:26Kate Lister?

  Yeah, fine. You crack on, love. But that's not what happened.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  You know, I think Jane would have been a good queen. She was earnest. She was sincere. She was devoted. She was determined and she would have continued Edward the Sixth's Protestant Reformation. So

• 1:05:43Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  I think a lot of, you know, Edward the Sixth's reign was short. He came to the throne aged nine, died aged 15. A lot of people who were told, oh, you know, put away a crucifix, destroy this, destroy that, they just hid them. They just hid them because they saved up loads of money. They'd saved up loads of money to buy this lovely crucifix. They don't want to, they, they love it. So they just hid them and they popped them out again when Elizabeth comes to the throne. She says, Elizabeth said, oh, you know, your churches can look crucifix-y as long as you, you know, have the spirit of Protestantism. You can, you can get all the accoutrements out.

• 1:06:15Kate Lister?

  Protestant vibes.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  But I think perhaps if Jane had been queen, they'd have given up and they'd just say, okay, but they destroyed this crucifix now. It's going to be Protestantism from now on. So I think Jane would have been a very good queen. And what we would have seen throughout her reign is a power battle with men, power battle with her father-in-law, power battle with her father, power battle with her husband in a way that we don't see with Elizabeth because, you know, they're all dead and she won't marry. And we don't really see with Mary because yes, Philip of Spain is not the best husband on the block. But he's often not there. And so she takes a lot of her decisions without him.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  So I think Jane really would have shaped this vision of female queenship. And it was going to be a tough, tough world for her, constantly fighting against this awful father-in-law, this awful father, and a husband who was being manipulated by both of them. But I think she would have been a good queen. But certainly she deserves to be in our, in our queen pantheon as Jane the First.

• 1:07:24Kate Lister?

  We should remember her as a queen, I think.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  We should.

• 1:07:28Kate Lister?

  Kate Williams, you are a queen. You have been wonderful. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Well, I am on Instagram, Kate Williams ME. And Jane is a large section in my most recent book, Regina. Because, because I really felt that she does show us the big problem of the queen, the biggest problem of any queen is a husband. And we don't have anyone in the, in the 16th century who can solve it. Jane gets sat on by her father-in-law and increasingly by her husband. Mary, this rebellions against her marrying Philip of Spain. She's constantly tormented. He, he's back and forth. He tries to control her. Elizabeth says, no, no, no husbands. But that means she doesn't have an heir. And Mary, Queen of Scots, also chooses some horrific husbands.

• 1:08:20Kate Lister?

  She really does.

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  Because as soon as, this just shows the problem that as soon as these men get close to the throne, they try and seize power. The most extreme example of, of course, Catherine of Aragon's sister, Joanna of Castile, who comes to the throne of Spain. And then suddenly both her father and her husband, and then her son will say, oh, she's too mad to rule, put her in the tower. So, you know, you, you don't have a woman whose husband says, oh.

• 1:08:46Kate Lister?

  How can I support you?

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  How can I help? How can I help? You know, what can I do? Really? Well, we don't have it until Queen Anne. And then we don't really have it again because, you know, Victoria and Albert are, it's a battle for power there as well.

• 1:09:00Kate Lister?

  Okay, you have been wonderful. Thank you so much.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. And if we travel in time, Kate, we'll be back there. Often we'll go and buy our nice pigs head and a bit of trotter for dinner.

• 1:09:12Kate Lister?

  Absolutely.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  And we'll be saying, who is this Jane?

• 1:09:16Kate Lister?

  Who else, Jane?

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Who on earth is this? Where's the white queen?

• 1:09:24Kate Lister?

  Thank you to Kate and thank you to all of you for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if there's a subject you'd like us to explore, or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast was edited by Hannah Theodorov, produced by Sophie G, McKenna Fernandez and Georgie Turner. The engineer was Hanif Hussain and the senior producer was Freddy Chick. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.