Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society The Truth About The Minotaur About this episode Deep in an Ancient Greek labyrinth lurks the half bull half man monster: the Minotaur.
What did this wild myth about a woman having a baby with a bull have to say about how humans understood our taboo desires? How did they even make it happen? And what happened when you found him in the labyrinth?
Joining Kate today is historian and author, Jasmine Elmer, to help us get to the bottom of this myth and find out the truth behind the Minotaur.
This episode was edited by Tom Delargy. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.
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0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
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2:00 Kate Lister? Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwix the Sheets. And this is a naughty podcast, quite frankly. We do like getting our hands dirty in historical smut around here, so I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering adult subsonic and adult too. And if you can't tick all of that off your list, then sod off. We don't want you around here, anyway. Right, for the rest of you, on with the show.
2:30 Kate Lister? We are deep underground here beneath the palace of Knossos in the Bronze Age of Crete, and I am lost. Yes, I know it's a labyrinth and they're not meant to be easy, but there's not even a phone signal down here for me to be able to cheat my way out of it. Somewhere through these passageways lurks a half-man, half-bull monster of ancient Greek mythology: the Minotaur. And I'm looking for him because I want to hear his side of this utterly mad story. And it's a story that, at the heart of it, explains how humans grapple with primal and forbidden desires, which frankly, I am all about. You want to find out more?
3:14 Kate Lister? Well, then we've got to find him first.
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3:51 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheet: The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, with me, Kate Lister. Greek mythology is pretty mental at the best of times, not to mention controversial. See our episode from earlier this year on the truth behind Medusa for more on that. When the ancient Greeks decided to explore their baser desires, they did not hold back. Which brings us to today's episode, where I once again talk with the fabulous historian and author Jasmine Elmer to get to the heart of the Minotaur myth and find out what is it really all about. Togas and bullhorns at the ready, let's do this.
4:33 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to the Twix the Sheets. It's only Jasmine Elmer. How are you doing?
4:39 Speaker 06 I feel like I'm a co-host.
4:43 Kate Lister? I would love you to be a co-host.
4:46 Speaker 06 Because I'm back again. So it's very exciting to be here.
4:49 Kate Lister? Back once again, bringing your knowledge of the ancient world and the ancient Greeks, and this time, the Minotaur.
4:57 Speaker 06 I know, one of my genuine, genuine favourites.
4:59 Kate Lister? Oh, is it? Most of what I know about this myth is based on my watching Jim Henson's Greek myths as a child, which I loved.
5:08 Speaker 06 Are the best things on the planet with the dog.
5:10 Kate Lister? Were you a big fan too?
5:12 Speaker 06 Of course, of course.
5:15 Kate Lister? And the storyteller as well.
5:16 Speaker 06 Yeah, all of it. Just all of it. I loved all of that.
5:19 Kate Lister? So good. Now, you have studied this in depth and you are a classicist scholar. I have watched something with puppets in it. So just give me a quick rundown. Who is the Minotaur?
5:35 Speaker 06 So the Minotaur is a half bull, half man creature from Greek mythology.
5:41 Kate Lister? Does it specify which half?
5:43 Speaker 06 The head of a bull, the body of a man. I really feel like it's my favourite because it's the most messed up backstory I think we've got in Greek myths. It's top level, top level messed up.
5:52 Kate Lister? I bet none of this made it into Jim Henson's version for children either.
5:56 Speaker 06 No.
5:57 Kate Lister? Go on then, you disabused me of this.
5:59 Speaker 06 The Minotaur is from the island of Crete. So King Minos, who people might have heard of, is the king of that place. And he refuses to sacrifice a beautiful bull to the gods. You're not allowed to do that because that's bad. You've got to do what you've got to do. You're supposed to worship the gods and do what they say.
6:18 Kate Lister? Okay.
6:19 Speaker 06 So as a punishment, the goddess Aphrodite makes his wife Pasiphae fall in love with a bull. And then she has a baby little bull thing called the Minotaur. And you might be asking me, Jasmine, what happened in between that?
6:32 Kate Lister? Yes, please.
6:33 Speaker 06 And that's the bit that's my favourite bit. How did Pasiphae get with the bull? That's the question. I mean, that's what you're all thinking. That's the question.
6:41 Kate Lister? Yes.
6:42 Speaker 06 So Pasiphae gets the help of the famous inventor Didoles, who King Minos has got imprisoned, basically, on Crete. I mean, imagine this series, first of all, before I carry on, amazing series. And she goes to Didoles and says, I need to, you know, with the bull. Give us, how do I do it? And he says, I'll make you a cow to get into, you like, like some fashioned thing. Then you crawl into it and then you do your thing and then it's all sorted. And then the Minotaur came.
7:14 Kate Lister? That's just, who thought that up?
7:18 Speaker 06 Do you know what? The story, obviously we'll get into the story. All good with the story, fine, but that little detail, that's the cherry on the top. Who came up with that?
7:28 Kate Lister? I mean, that, that shows commitment, doesn't it? Like on her part is that she would involve DIY and a craftsman in this as well. Cause i- if I was gonna do that, I'd attempt to do it myself. I'd be too embarrassed to try and get help in.
7:42 Speaker 06 What's that thing that you can put? Is it like, um, like the handyman apps or whatever you call them?
7:46 Kate Lister? Yeah, you'd be looking on YouTube for tutorials.
7:49 Speaker 06 Can you imagine? Carpenter wanted to fashion cow for something or other.
7:54 Kate Lister? No questions, please.
7:55 Speaker 06 For shenanigans, no questions asked.
7:57 Kate Lister? That's the most deranged story.
7:59 Speaker 06 To be fair to Pasfaye though, like she has been made to fall in love with the bull by Aphrodite.
8:05 Kate Lister? Right, but she wasn't made to go and make a cow suit that she had to run around in.
8:11 Speaker 06 No, but you know.
8:12 Kate Lister? All right. But so we're, we're gonna give her a bit of licence because she's been cursed by, she's not in her right mind, quite clearly. What a bonkers story. So like, and, and in this world, that results in a pregnancy.
8:23 Speaker 06 In this world, that results in the pregnancy of a bull child called the Minotaur, who is then, what, most people know him because he's loved in the labyrinth, this maze that's underground that he has to live in, in shame.
8:37 Kate Lister? Wow. And all this because his dad Minos wouldn't sacrifice a bull?
8:43 Speaker 06 Well, he's not, he's not his dad technically, is he?
8:45 Kate Lister? Okay. Oh, yes, he's not. No. All right. Your stepdad.
8:47 Speaker 06 Stepdad, yeah, if you wanna call it that.
8:49 Kate Lister? Okay.
8:50 Speaker 06 You say all of this, I totally get why you're like, doesn't feel like a fair punishment. But it's the, what's been broken is the law of hubris, which is arrogance against the gods. So it's a disrespect to the gods. And you, that is hardcore. That's a hardcore crime, uh, religious crime. So it is fitting in the Greek, in the Greek, always in the Greek mindset, um, it's fitting.
9:11 Kate Lister? No, no, I like to think social services would have stepped in a while before any of this happened.
9:16 Speaker 06 I mean, I know the funding ain't great nowadays, but I like to think that would have gone up the top of the case list as one to have a look at.
9:22 Kate Lister? That wouldn't be a story we'd all be reading about in the papers going, there, there were opportunities missed.
9:28 Kate Lister? We saw her building a cow, Your Honor.
9:31 Speaker 06 Oh my god.
9:32 Kate Lister? Right, sorry.
9:33 Speaker 06 We should probably both be fired from this podcast immediately.
9:35 Kate Lister? I think so. I think it might be cancelled pretty quickly after this. Right, okay, moving swiftly along. So the poor little kid, the Minotaur, and is that his name, Minotaur, or is it the Minotaur?
9:47 Speaker 06 I mean, I've never thought of it before, but it would be, I don't know why that's even funnier to think of. You mean like Madonna, but it's Minotaur?
9:55 Kate Lister? Because the, the Minotaur, which suggests there's more than one.
9:59 Speaker 06 Well, no, I guess it depends on how sassy he's feeling on the day. Is he just Minotaur? Uh, no, I think there aren't any more, but it, Minos is the first part because obviously where he's at, Minos, okay, yeah. Um, and Taurus is Bull, so it's like the Bull of Minos, quite literally. So it is specific to him, but I just quite like the idea that he's like calling himself by this.
10:21 Kate Lister? I like to go by Minotaur, thank you very much.
10:22 Speaker 06 Yes.
10:24 Kate Lister? So what was he like before he got thrown in this giant maze, also built by Daedalus, who is kept very busy by this family? Why was he thrown in there? Was he thrown in there as an infant? Did he display disturbing behaviour as a bull child? Like what?
10:40 Speaker 06 So the first thing is like in the sources, the Minotaur isn't seen as this kind of primary figure where we hear about how the Minotaur is feeling and, and thinking.
10:50 Kate Lister? Okay, okay, right.
10:50 Speaker 06 He's kind of like just this object of shame.
10:53 Kate Lister? Right, okay.
10:54 Speaker 06 So there's no kind of like, sit down children, listen to the story of the Minotaur from his perspective. There's none of that going on in any of the sources.
11:00 Kate Lister? Right.
11:00 Speaker 06 It's more like, there's this creature and he's thrown into the labyrinth. I mean, he's met, he, he has to be, um, the labyrinth has to be designed and made by Daedalus so he can go and live in it. To hide the shame of what has happened.
11:14 Kate Lister? Okay.
11:15 Speaker 06 So it's quite sad really with the Minotaur because he, he don't really have, he's not, he's not even the leading character in his own story.
11:22 Kate Lister? No, he's not really, is he?
11:23 Speaker 06 He's a bit, yeah, there's not, source material wise for him, there is source material, of course, but even like the actual meat and bones of his story doesn't really come up until like the first century AD. So it's really late because although there's origins way back. Like sixth, seventh century, that mentions.
11:41 Kate Lister? Yeah.
11:41 Speaker 06 But the meatiness doesn't come till a bit later. So he's not even that big a deal in earlier mythology.
11:47 Kate Lister? And he's another character from Greek myth that seems to have got a particularly raw deal when you actually break down what's happened to this character, because none of this is his fault.
11:55 Speaker 06 No, it's not. And again, we see this a lot with monsters.
12:00 Kate Lister? Hmm.
12:01 Speaker 06 They are essentially some kind of projection of a, of a human fear.
12:07 Kate Lister? Yeah.
12:07 Speaker 06 And yeah, they're they're personified in some way into a character. It might feel like harsh. But there's no kind of like, you know, the, the Greeks aren't thinking of them as like this poor little individual figure. He, he symbolizes something and they're aware of that. But that's why they're made in, these individuals are made into monsters because they're not human. It doesn't matter. He's got a human body. He's got a bull's head. He's not human.
12:32 Kate Lister? Yeah.
12:32 Speaker 06 And so that, that means we can like put him over there and make him an object of fear rather than just a normal human that did something bad and over there. But you're right, for us, if you've got any bloody empathy, you'll be like, that's horrible.
12:45 Kate Lister? Yeah.
12:45 Speaker 06 Lobbed in the dark.
12:46 Kate Lister? Okay, so none of that came up in the Jim Henson version.
12:50 Speaker 06 No.
12:51 Kate Lister? Theseus, enter stage left Theseus.
12:54 Speaker 06 Mm hmm.
12:54 Kate Lister? Who is he? Where did he come from? Let's try and explain what happens where the Minotaur reappears.
13:02 Speaker 06 Yeah, so Theseus comes from Athens and the Athenians are supposed to, I mean, don't ask me why again, right? But the Athenians are supposed to send a group of youths, men and boys and girls over for the Minotaur to be eaten every year. Every year or every four years. It doesn't, different, different versions doesn't really matter. But, and so Theseus is like, I'm gonna be, that ain't, that ain't right. I'm not gonna send my people over to get eaten by this thing. So he goes in as one of the youths, hidden and goes to slay the Minotaur and put an end to this malarkey.
13:34 Kate Lister? Right.
13:34 Speaker 06 So, as you know, it's a labyrinth, so how's he gonna get in and get out? He backs himself that he can kill the Minotaur, but how's he gonna get out? So Princess Ariadne, who is one of the daughters of Minos, falls in love with him and helps. And she gives him a ball of wool, so he kind of goes off in, unravels it, so he can follow it on the, he can kill the Minotaur and come back out again. And then he does the decent thing on the way back, takes her, gonna marry her, just abandons her on the island of Naxos on the way back, just goes, see you later love, you've done your job. He's an original fuckboy.
14:08 Kate Lister? That's not very nice.
14:11 Speaker 06 He's a douche, really.
14:13 Kate Lister? So it kills the Minotaur, do we know how?
14:16 Speaker 06 No, there's not really, it's not like other stories where you've got a detail about it, he just goes and kills the Minotaur.
14:22 Kate Lister? Right.
14:22 Speaker 06 It's quite sad, actually, it's just like, just, and he's dead, presumably with a sword or a knife or a dagger or a rock or there's different lights, not much detail, really.
14:32 Kate Lister? And then he runs off with Ariadne and ditches her on an island?
14:37 Speaker 06 After she's just betrayed her family to do this as well, you've got to remember that, and it's Ariadne, like, technically, the Minotaur is, is her half-brother, so, it's messed up, isn't it?
14:46 Kate Lister? What a shit.
14:47 Speaker 06 Yeah, he's not, I'm not, I do not like Theseus, don't get me chatting about him, you're not a fan.
14:52 Kate Lister? No.
14:53 Speaker 06 There's something about him that he's just really up himself, they're all up himself, but he is really up himself, I've always hated him, so, sorry if everyone loves him out there.
15:01 Kate Lister? No, well, nobody does, and I was just gonna say, like, surely even back in the ancient Greek world, his abandoning of Ariadne would have been at least frowned upon.
15:10 Speaker 06 No, it's, no, no, I mean, it's, I mean, like, for example, Jason and Medea, Medea helps Jason to get the golden fleece by putting the dragon to sleep, spoiler alert, that's in my book. And then he says, I'll marry you, and then he does, and it's all crap, though, it's just not a good end.
15:31 Kate Lister? No.
15:32 Speaker 06 And her rage ends up killing everyone, so spoiler alert about Greece is women aren't treated very good.
15:38 Kate Lister? No.
15:39 Speaker 06 The end.
15:39 Kate Lister? But also, Theseus is, he's just, he's a fucking idiot as well, because didn't he forget to change his ship's sails on the way back, wasn't, wasn't that a thing?
15:48 Speaker 06 Yeah, so his dad is called Aegeus. And his dad, I mean, why you do this, I've got no idea. I should have just sent a WhatsApp saying he was all right, but. He said, obviously he was shitting himself that his son was going over to kill the Minotaur. So he said, when you come back. Make sure you change your sail, because there's a black sail and a white sail. So make sure you change your sails to show me that you're alive. So I know you come back. And he forgot to change the sail.
16:11 Kate Lister? Dickhead. See, they can't change the sheets, they can't change the sails. It's just ridiculous.
16:16 Speaker 06 His father lobs himself into the sea and that's why it's called the Aegean Sea after Aegeus.
16:21 Kate Lister? Well, what a miserable, rather depressing story. Is there, are there any winners in this at all?
16:26 Speaker 06 No.
16:29 Speaker 06 It's awful. It's awful, isn't it? It's just not, it's fascinating, but it's awful. The end.
16:34 Kate Lister? Why is it your favourite myth then? This is just a car crash of human misery.
16:38 Speaker 06 I, I, it's because of the, the, the cow bit. I just don't know what that says about me, but I just find that I don't know why I just.
16:48 Kate Lister? It is the most mad detail.
16:49 Speaker 06 I just have always just been like, what the hell is that about? I just loved it. Genuinely though, like the, the Minotaur has a lot of symbolism that relates to it. I actually think it is really sad. I think basically I like myths that have, I really feel something from it. And I just feel something from this. I get angry and sad at this one and a little bit bemused by the whole cow bit. So I get a nice range of emotions. That's why it's one of my favourites.
17:14 Kate Lister? Yeah, I mean, it definitely makes you think, doesn't it? What symbolism do you think the bull has? Like, why is he? Half a bull? Why isn't he half a horse or half a, I don't know, a rhino? What is the symbolism of the bull?
17:29 Speaker 06 Well, the bull's really interesting. So before we have the sort of. The Greeks, as you might think of them, there were different obviously eras. And the oldest civilisation in the Greek islands is the Minoans on the island of Crete, which is the same as where the Minotaur is. And they were famed for their bull leaping and they have a lot of bulls in their iconography. So. Bull leaping is where there are these images, they're pretty cool. Where men would as a sport sort of leap over the back of a bull. It looks insane. I don't know how they did it, and they must have all died, as far as I can tell. But it's like, I guess, a prelude to kind of bullfighting in what you get in Spain and things like that. But it looked more artistic. So the bull was long associated with Crete in in its kind of history.
18:14 Speaker 06 So it makes sense that it would be a bull and not a horse or a goat or any other thing you want to fancy lob it in there. Rather than, yeah, any other creature, because it's what Crete's known for. So it's really why I'd say it's the bull.
18:27 Kate Lister? Is it anything to do masculinity? Is the bull a symbol of masculinity? I mean, kind of, I guess it kind of is now, like, bullfighting. That's the whole point of it, isn't it? It's like, oh, look at me, big man, I can kill this animal.
18:38 Speaker 06 I mean, obviously, there's the fact that, um, originally Minos was going to sacrifice a beautiful bull. So it's kind of like, you know, here we go, that motif continues in the in the punishment. I wouldn't say necessarily that it's like a manly, I think, is it a manly creature? I mean, obviously, it's a really powerful creature, and so it's got an aspect of kind of power in there. Therefore, is that a bit manly? Maybe. But I don't really think there's a lot to do with the choice of it that relates to gender there, really.
19:14 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Jasmine and the Minotaur after this short break.
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21:56 Kate Lister? Right, let's get on with it.
22:09 Kate Lister? What would you think about the idea that the Minotaur, there's something to do with sexual shame here? I mean, thinking back to the insane cow story, I would be ashamed too. But the way that Greeks and the ancient myths work is it's all very symbolic. Like if you start to question it for too long, the whole thing falls apart pretty quickly. So like you can't get into the logistics of what, how, who did what? Like what did bestiality mean to them? What do you think they, do you think they thought that was a funny story? Do you think that they thought that, like what would that have meant to them? This bestiality, this woman who is so insane with lust that she has a man comes in to build things for her? Like that, what do you think that meant to them? It is a mad story.
22:52 Speaker 06 It's completely mad, but you're, you're right. At the heart of it is, is sexual taboo.
22:56 Kate Lister? Yeah.
22:57 Speaker 06 So this is obviously something, this is not something that is going on in Greek society. This is not their attitude to this, is this is a taboo, you don't do this.
23:04 Kate Lister? Hmm.
23:05 Speaker 06 And so that is why we have this myth, because as you, as you quite rightly said, myths are always a moral kind of exploration of something going on in society. So really it's about sexual shame that relates to the taboo of bestiality. And that's just what it's about. It's literally what it says on the tin, this one, it's not too complicated in that sense. You know, I think that there is this kind of point to it because this thing happens and there is this baby born out of it, right? This Minotaur, this idea as well of it being, having to be locked away, the shame being physically taken away and locked underground.
23:44 Kate Lister? In a maze.
23:45 Speaker 06 In a maze. This is my own thought really, but the maze looks a lot like a brain, right? And it's like subconscious and it's like locking away this shame never to be spoken of again.
23:56 Kate Lister? Yeah.
23:57 Speaker 06 And again, we get that hero, that same bloody thing again, where the male hero has to come in to end it. Like a man needs to come in and put this right, you know? And I think it's really fascinating that it's. Double, double, triple shocking that is a woman that has committed the incest.
24:13 Kate Lister? I think definitely, right? When you kind of like look at this thing, it's like, where's the shame? It's, I think the, the excessiveness of that story all plays into like the shock value of it to sort of justify what's happened here, or something that needs to be kept secret and something that needs to be kept away, as a lot of Greek monsters are. What do you think the Minotaur has to be fed seven maidens and seven boys every few years? Like, what addition to the narrative is that? Because they could have, I mean, I know what no one was thinking this through, like with a subplot and stuff, but it's an interesting addition to the narrative. Like, why is this creature now, now killing?
24:55 Speaker 06 Yeah, I guess it's kind of like double whack, really. It's first of all, it's, if the Minotaur was just born and just disappeared, we wouldn't be able to explore the monstrous nature of the Minotaur. And the fact that he needs to eat bodies, human flesh, which is another taboo thing. There's no human sacrifice going on in Greece. That's not a thing. That shows that how uncivilized he is, uncontrollable, monstrous, crazy. So there's a first point about that they add to his monstrosity. The second point I'd say is that we need a way to introduce Theseus into the narrative so he can come save everyone and sort the Minotaur out. So we need that addition of the maidens and, and the young men for him to come in.
25:39 Speaker 06 And I guess I said two, really third point as well then is really about the fact that he feasts on youth as well. Is kind of a bit more destructive because in lots of ways, this is Athens's future generation that he's feasting on. So it's just kind of like, in lots of ways, it could be this idea that something that is shameful continues to have an impact. Every now and then it's continuing to have this impact. It's a cycle that needs to be broken, hence the sort of why they have to come every X number of years to come and be fed.
26:12 Kate Lister? It's all very Hunger Games-y, isn't it?
26:15 Speaker 06 It is a bit Hunger Games-y.
26:17 Kate Lister? Isn't it? Yeah. When I hear this story, I can't help but wonder, what is the fucking point in Theseus? Like, seriously? It doesn't, like, is it like a pride thing that we're supposed to like, look at him and just, what? Like, he goes and he kills the monster, but we're not given a lot of details. He does get the girl, but he ditches her on an island. He kills the monster, but he goes back and he forgets to change his sails, so his dad dies. It's like, none of this, he seems to be being punished too. It's like, what? Like, he doesn't sail off into the distance and become a king and live happily ever after. Like, it's such a weird story.
26:51 Speaker 06 Well, that he sort of does later on, but like,
26:53 Kate Lister? Oh, he does, oh.
26:54 Speaker 06 Yeah, I mean, but he's in his heroic cycle. So the point is that when you're in your heroic cycle, you are going through difficult tasks and you're trying to overcome them. And they're not always neat and tidy. But I mean, the point of Theseus is exactly that. Every single Greek myth, you're gonna find a monster, you're gonna find a hero, you have to have it. It's like light and dark. The uncontrollable needs to be controlled by some bloke. In this example, it's Theseus. You know? And also, like, the whole thing about him leaving Ariadne, that's just him doing that thing. That's the sort of thing that men can do. It's not like the Greeks would have gone, oh, how dare he? He'd have gone, yeah, yeah, she'd served her purpose. That was all right. Never mind. Like, it's
27:39 Speaker 06 it's sort of like,
27:41 Kate Lister? I'm glad his dad killed himself, quite frankly. Horrible man. But the lovely thing about myths is because they are so startlingly vague and bizarre, the different time periods and generations project their own interpretation and meaning onto them. So they shift all the time. Like Medusa's myth shifts all the time. Has the Minotaur myth shifted very much? Has he ever undergone a process of reclamation? Has anyone ever wanted to tell his story?
28:12 Speaker 06 Not really.
28:13 Kate Lister? No.
28:13 Speaker 06 Unlike many of the monstrous female figures that we see so much interest in, there's not a lot around the Minotaur. It's not to say no one's been interested in him, but there's not been this massive resurgence of interest in his story.
28:26 Kate Lister? Hmm.
28:26 Speaker 06 Other than, I guess, in the psychological aspects of sexual taboo and bestiality and interest in that. But yeah, sadly, a little bit in reflection to how he was in Greek myth in the sources. Because there's not actually a prolific amount about the Minotaur in the source material. There's enough, don't get me wrong, but he was never even really that popular in Greek source material. And I would say it's continued. It's not that there's nothing. It's not that there's nothing, but there's not a whole load.
28:55 Kate Lister? Picasso did some Minotauri stuff, didn't he?
28:58 Speaker 06 Yeah, Picasso did. There's a few different artworks that he's done that relate to this kind of issue. And, you know, it's kind of an important feature in his work. And I think that the thinking behind this is that Picasso has some kind of personal interest in the Minotaur story. Um, and that he saw aspects of himself in the Minotaur. I mean, uh, it might be to do with obviously his Spanish ancestry. I don't want to get into Picasso's personal life. I don't know what he was up to.
29:28 Kate Lister? Not good things.
29:30 Speaker 06 I'm not sure it's to do with that he was into sort of bestiality or anything. I'm not going to go that far. But I think, you know, kind of what the Minotaur represents, the idea that Spain has a big kind of connection to balls.
29:42 Kate Lister? Hmm.
29:43 Speaker 06 I think he was fascinated and kind of interpreted that in his own artworks. I wouldn't say that's tantamount to like some movement of massive interest in the Minotaur. That's one dude going, let's have a little look at this.
29:54 Kate Lister? Yeah.
29:55 Speaker 06 And trying to understand it in his Picasso-y way, as he does it in his sort of surrealist, strange, you know, kind of technique to look into it.
30:05 Kate Lister? So he just kind of, just exists on the sort of the margins of myth, really, as this kind of strange. Half bull, half human thing that just, again, doesn't get any lines of his own, doesn't, nothing in his own voice.
30:19 Speaker 06 No, and that's the bit that's quite sad, isn't it? It's a bit like, you know, exactly what happens in the myth is happening now. You know, he's put underground and ignored and actually very few people have been that interested in him since the story.
30:33 Kate Lister? I wonder if what Picasso liked, because he was a notorious fanny rat. He was, you couldn't keep him away long enough.
30:41 Speaker 06 Did you just call him a fanny rat?
30:42 Kate Lister? I did, yes, yes.
30:44 Speaker 06 Okay, I like that one. I've heard that one. Is that a catechism or is that?
30:48 Kate Lister? I don't think he was a very nice person. I really don't. But I think, I think maybe he saw the Minotaur as like this unrestrained male sexuality and potency. Like this male lust that's running around a maze.
31:04 Speaker 06 Right, okay. I mean, I don't know where he's getting that from in terms of the Greek myth.
31:09 Kate Lister? His own pants, I think.
31:10 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think it's just like some element of fantasy. There's no, there's no real, it's not like the, it's not like the Minotaur's down there shagging everyone for his whole life in Greek myth.
31:19 Kate Lister? He's probably a virgin, I would have said.
31:21 Speaker 06 Yeah, I should probably think so. As you say, it's to do with, I think, really more Spanish perspectives of what you mentioned earlier on about the bull and the masculinity that is very much associated with that in a, in a Spanish context. So it's that notion. I guess what you mean, like, there's like, there is then what they see as a bull as being like virulent and kind of powerful and, I mean, that would make some sense, right? I can see that, but I'm, I'm just a little bit distracted still by you calling him a, a fanny rat. What was that? Was it?
31:51 Kate Lister? Yeah, a fanny rat, yeah.
31:52 Speaker 06 Yeah, just a little bit distracted by that, so.
31:55 Kate Lister? So, final question then.
31:56 Speaker 06 Yes.
31:57 Kate Lister? Would you rather have the head of a bull or the bottom of a bull? Because he seems to have got a raw deal with that. Like, if you've got to be a half bull, half man hybrid, you must have got the head of a bull and looked down at your genitals and gone, oh bloody hell.
32:10 Speaker 06 Can I just kindly decline all your offers of any part of being a bull? Is that an option? I definitely don't want to get Daedalus to make me into some kind of weird cow creature to climb into.
32:19 Kate Lister? No, no, definitely not.
32:21 Speaker 06 I'm all right just being the full human, if that's okay.
32:24 Kate Lister? All right.
32:25 Speaker 06 Well, what do you want? What do you, what bit of bull do you want on you?
32:27 Kate Lister? I don't know, because like, if you've got the bull head, then you can be full monster running around, like, being monstrous. But if you've got, like, your normal human top half and the bottom bit of a bull, like, you can't be that monstrous. You'd still have to, like, go around Tesco's and everything, but just have the bottom half of a bull. I think it'd be quite embarrassing. So I would, I'd go full top of bull.
32:47 Speaker 06 You know, when people say, do you overthink?
32:52 Speaker 06 This might be something you might want to have a little reflection on.
32:55 Kate Lister? So just sit with it for a while, Kate, and unpack that.
33:00 Kate Lister? And on that note, Jasmine, you have been marvellous. Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? If they want to write to you and tell you if they would prefer the top or bottom half of a bull, where can they find you?
33:12 Speaker 06 Well, they should probably immediately call a therapist if they're seriously thinking about it. Okay, if they can find me, I'm on Instagram, at history underscore with underscore soul. Catch me there. That's mainly where I'm at nowadays. And yeah, thanks for having me again. Brilliant, brilliant time, always is hilarious.
33:30 Kate Lister? You've been so much fun, and we will see you again soon.
33:33 Speaker 06 See you soon.
33:40 Kate Lister? Thank you for listening, and thank you so much to Jasmine for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected] . Coming up, we've got episodes on how to give birth like a medieval person, and the first in our upcoming mini-series exploring sex work throughout history, and we will be starting with none other than the ancient Romans. This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again at Betwixt Sheets, The History of Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
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