Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Ancient Eroticism, Pagan Workouts & Body Ideals: History of the Gym About this episode It's January and (reluctant) thoughts turn to gym memberships, but what are the ancient origins of this phenomena?
From the naked workouts of Ancient Greece to the bodybuilders of the 19th century, a lot has influenced exercise culture over the centuries - and it's always had a healthy dose of homoeroticism to it.
Joining Kate today is Eric Chaline, author of The Temple of Perfection https://www.amazon.co.uk/Temple-Perfection-Eric-Chaline/dp/178023449X, to take us inside these spaces and find out more about them.
This episode was edited by Tom Delargy, the producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.
All music from Epidemic Sounds/All3 Media.
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0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:37 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm Pablo Torre, host of Pablo Torre Finds Out, and I have chased down a lot of strange stories, but nothing quite like what's inside a McDonald's Quarter Pounder with cheese. Hundred percent fresh beef, cooked right when you order it, hand-topped onions, plus cheese and pickles in every bite, and right now, you can get one with medium fries and a drink for just $8, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery, fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery.
1:15 Speaker 02 Would you believe us if we told you there was a podcast that was haunted? Well, there is. It's called Two Girls, One Ghost. We didn't want to believe it at first, but we can no longer ignore it. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America.
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1:36 Speaker 02 Unsolved mysteries.
1:37 Speaker 03 Missing persons. Each week, we explore the deepest, darkest, spookiest places in the world.
1:44 Speaker 02 Tune in to Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. Listen at your own risk.
1:52 Kate Lister? Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. How the hell are you doing? It's January, we're after Christmas. How's the bloat? Hmm? How's the hangover? How are the resolutions going? Mine are all out the window as well. But before we can continue with this podcast, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. Do you feel safer? I feel safer. Right, on with the show.
2:26 Kate Lister? Hello, betwixters. Don't mind me, I'm just back in ancient Greece circa 700 BCE. And with the first ever Olympic Games looming, me and a bunch of fellas are here working out in one of the first gymnasiums? Gymnasia? Gymnas- I don't know, I don't know, it's all Greek to me. We would call it a gym. But it's not getting me very far because everybody has to work out in the nip. I think my time here may be somewhat limited. But what journey did the gym go on in the centuries that followed? All in the pursuit of a body ideal that perhaps has more to it than meets the eye. For instance, what did a period of revolution in Europe have to do with sparking the first
3:09 Kate Lister? gym boom in the 19th century? Anyway, some jobsworth looks like he's heading over here with a papyrus clipboard, so I'd better clear off.
3:24 Speaker 04 What do you call a man? Oh, money, of course.
3:27 Speaker 05 You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
3:29 Speaker 04 I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button.
3:42 Speaker 05 Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, d'ry.
3:52 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheet, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. Well, it's that time of year again, betwixters. The time of resolutions, of promising yourself that this will be the year that you lose four stone and get a six-pack. Hmm. And how will you do that? Well, perhaps like many, many others, you'll be joining a gym. And gym culture is huge. But where did it all begin? Was there any such thing as a medieval gym? How about a Renaissance gym? And what's the history of the gym and the gay community? Joining me today is Eric Chaline, author of The Temple of Perfection: The History of
4:35 Kate Lister? the Gym, who is gonna take us back in time to find out. Sweatbands and dumbbells at the ready, guys. Let's crack on.
4:47 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Eric Chaline. How are you doing?
4:54 Speaker 06 I'm very well, thank you. How are you, Kate?
4:56 Kate Lister? I'm thrilled to be talking to you about the history of the gym. That's how I am. And this episode is going to be going out in January, which is a very good time for gym memberships, isn't it?
5:08 Speaker 06 Exactly. Probably less so these sort of more difficult economic times, but the gym is still holding up quite well.
5:17 Kate Lister? You have written, I'm going to give you a book, the full title, The Temple of Perfection. So my first question to you, why did you want to write about the history, not just of the gym, but of exercise and, and physical fitness?
5:31 Speaker 06 Well, amazingly, there's never been a complete history of the gym written. There's been some academic articles and some memoirs by bodybuilders, people like Arnold Schwarzenegger, but never a complete social history of the gym, which I think is an important social and historical phenomenon. It dates from about 2,800 years ago. So it's one of our oldest institutions, beating the Christian church by some 800 years.
6:05 Kate Lister? Wow. Eric, are you a gym bunny yourself?
6:08 Speaker 06 I'm sort of probably a bit past the gym bunny stage because I'm sort of now retired, but I definitely was in my time. I qualified as a personal trainer when I was younger. And I worked for fitness magazines in the eighties and nineties. So, yeah, so I've got quite sort of good exercise background in contemporary stuff. And I'm also a historian by training. So the two married very well. I thought a hole in the market and in our historical knowledge.
6:42 Kate Lister? What do you qualify as a gym? Not just going outside and running around until you get hungry and then coming home. Like an actual, how are you defining this for your research? What do you count as a gym?
6:55 Speaker 06 It as an actual building dedicated to the pursuit of exercise for its own sake, rather than, let's say, a sports field, which is actually like a football field, which is for, you know, play, you could do exercise on it and people do warm up and do training. But the purpose of it is to play football. So the gym is specifically for exercise for its own sake, rather than for any kind of functional activity.
7:27 Kate Lister? That makes perfect sense. And what are the earliest records that you have been able to find of gym culture and gyms?
7:34 Speaker 06 So, as I said, about two thousand eight hundred years ago in ancient Greece, we're talking about archaic and classical Greece. And we could say that gym culture starts in around seven seven six B C, which is the date of the first Olympiad. So the first Olympiad means the first athletes means that they had to do some training somewhere. Even though we have no archaeological evidence for gyms until much later, because they were obviously sort of temporary structures which were built and rebuilt. They must have had some kind of training facility for the first Olympic Games,
8:19 Speaker 06 which started with the main event. The first event was the sprint running race, just like it is in the modern Olympics.
8:28 Kate Lister? When I think of ancient Greece, I do think of healthy outdoor exercise culture. Is that a kind, is that a myth or is that something that was really important to the Greeks? Was the, what did the gym mean to these people?
8:41 Speaker 06 Oh, absolutely. The gym was probably one of the most important institutions of civil society in ancient Greece. It was a sort of multifunctional space dedicated to the the training of male citizens. So we're talking about freeborn Greek men. The women unfortunately didn't go. Go to the gym and, you know, didn't go to the gym until much, much later. In historical terms. The best known gym culture is Athens. And there were three large public gymnasiums in Athens in the outskirts, the best known of which is called the Academy.
9:23 Speaker 06 After which the academic academy is called, that it was one of the main gyms in Athens. And it's a sort of, if you arrive there, it would be a large enclosed park with courtyards for exercise, so sort of porticoes built in a square. And then inside those, you would have sort of people sort of wrestling and boxing and doing exercises. And then outside, you would have things like the javelin, the discus, running track, tracks for horses and for chariot racing, which was also part of the Olympic Games.
10:04 Kate Lister? Did they have like memberships?
10:07 Speaker 06 If you were a male citizen of a city like Athens and Freeborn, you were automatically a member. The city appointed a wealthy person to run the gym for a year. And he had to sort of fund everything, the staffing, the maintenance, everything out of his own pocket for a year. And it was a sort of privilege to do so. So imagine, you know, if it was today, would be Elon Musk would be funding the gym.
10:36 Kate Lister? Oh, God, right, okay.
10:38 Speaker 06 Or somebody like that. Anyway, a philanthropist. But Athens was a direct democracy, so it was run directly by its citizens who went to a citizen assembly. So that's how everything was run. Magistrates were elected from the citizen body and all they were chosen by lots. And they did their, they did their stint as magistrates for a year. And the guy who ran the gym was just another one of those people.
11:08 Kate Lister? Is it true that the Greeks exercised naked in the Nip?
11:14 Speaker 06 Absolutely, yes, I think we can be pretty sure it's very well attested, not just in sculpture, but also in vase painting. There aren't that many references in literature, but there are some references in the plays of Aristophanes and also in the dialogues of Plato, of people going to the gym and talking about the gym and sort of being near the gym kind of thing. There are no sort of direct descriptions. But yes, so you arrived in the gym and the first thing you did is you stripped off to prepare to exercise.
11:53 Speaker 06 And you didn't go into the gym proper, completely naked, you were oiled up. And then they sprinkled dust onto your body. In hot weather, they used clay to be cooling, or in cold weather, they used asphalt to be heating. So it was sort of a medical idea that if you covered yourself in dust, it would actually benefit you health-wise.
12:19 Kate Lister? This all sounds a bit sexy to me. Maybe that's just me putting a very modern lens on this. But like, we're all gonna go to the gym, we're all gonna take our clothes off and get oiled up.
12:29 Speaker 06 Exactly. And we're all boys together.
12:32 Kate Lister? All boys together.
12:33 Speaker 06 All boys together. And there was definitely that element of same-sex eroticism and attraction. And in fact, in ancient Greece, in classical Greece, there was a system of older, younger mentorship between older men and sort of younger boys between 14 and 18. So even though those relationships were not necessarily always sexual, ideally, I think in practice, quite a few of them were. I think, yes, same-sex attraction was definitely something that made people go to the gym and carry on going all through their lives. So if you were a
13:18 Speaker 06 free-born Athenian boy, you spent the first seven years of your life with your mum in those sort of... Women's quarters of the house. And then between seven and fourteen, because there were no public schools of any kind, the only schooling that was offered was in the gym. So they studied sort of reading, writing, basic skills, music and started their training. And between seven and fourteen, that's what they did. And then between fourteen and eighteen, they just stayed in the gym and did whatever they wanted. And then between eighteen and twenty, they were military cadets. They were called the Ephibes.
14:01 Speaker 06 And every freeborn man went for these two years of military training, which was also held at the gym.
14:08 Kate Lister? What were women doing?
14:10 Speaker 06 Women were, well, if you were a highborn, a freeborn Athenian lady, you just sat at home and wove. I'm afraid. And had children and and ran the house. Obviously, there were sort of poorer women who ran market stalls and, you know, were in the country. It was also a very slave economy, so there were a lot of slaves around. They were dealing, the people who go to the gym are purely male freeborn citizens. Slaves weren't allowed to go, or they worked there, but they weren't allowed to train.
14:53 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Eric after this short break.
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16:32 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm Pablo Torre, host of Pablo Torre Finds Out, and I have chased down a lot of strange stories, but nothing quite like what's inside a McDonald's Quarter Pounder with cheese. 100% fresh beef, cooked right when you order it, hand-topped onions, plus cheese and pickles in every bite, and right now, you can get one with medium fries and a drink for just $8, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California. And for a delivery, fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery.
17:10 Kate Lister? Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixter Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that.
17:39 Kate Lister? Right, let's get on with it.
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18:26 Kate Lister? The Greeks seem to know a thing or two about a very buffed male body. If you look at their statues and the art that's left, six packs and hamstrings and quads, it's all very taut and toned. Do you have any idea of what an exercise regime might have been for them? Like, today, you'd go to the gym and you'd have leg day or arm day and you'd have sets that you'd do. Is there any evidence of what they were actually doing in the gym to look like that?
18:54 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, we have evidence from vase painting, but they didn't really use weights. They actually trained in the sports in which they performed. So there were six Olympic sports. There was running, which was very popular, wrestling, which is also incredibly popular,
19:14 Speaker 06 discus and javelin. And the last one was the pankration, which is sort of the no-holds-barred boxing come wrestling, where people just beat each other, often to death in contests in the Olympic Games, serious injuries and fatalities. So it wasn't sort of, you know, nice feat, oh, let's go for a nice run in the park. Some of it was quite hairy.
19:42 Kate Lister? And what happened to the gym then? Because I can see that it was really big for the Greeks, and I know that the Romans had training areas as well. I'm racking my brain trying to think of a medieval gym, and I can't think of any.
19:55 Speaker 06 Now, the gym basically closes down, well, it carries on through the classical period and through the Hellenistic period, so that's Alexander the Great and his successors. But when the Romans take over, they're much more prudish, they don't want to strip off, unless they're in the baths, that's all right to be naked there, but they're not going to be naked in public like the Greeks. If you remember the Parthenon Frees, which represents a big festival in Athens, a lot of the guys, the younger guys especially, are naked, and that was probably a fair, you know, an accurate representation.
20:37 Speaker 06 People actually went with sort of vague, a cape over one's shoulder, but actually completely in the buff. But the Romans were much more, considered that quite decadent, and when the empire became Christian, obviously, anything to do with nakedness, anything to do with the pagan gods, as the gyms were dedicated to the pagan gods and the Olympic Games were dedicated to the gods, all that was out. The Olympic Games were abolished, along with all other pagan ceremonies, at the end of the fourth centuries of the Christian era. And that was it for the gym for about 1,200 years.
21:19 Kate Lister? Bathhouses survived, didn't they?
21:21 Speaker 06 Bathhouses survived, yes, but during the Middle Ages, they were considered sort of little more than brothels.
21:29 Kate Lister? Naughty.
21:30 Speaker 06 Naughty, yes, and probably accurately that people did get up to things in the bathhouses. So the gym sort of reappears in the literature during the Renaissance. You have a lot of doctors, physicians, who rediscover ancient medicine, and a lot of ancient medicine was concerned with the benefits of exercise, the benefits of moderation, exercise, good diet, which are not well-known, not well-attested in the Middle Ages, where if you were rich, you stuffed yourself. Think of Henry VIII, who's a bit later, but that kind of figure, he just basically ate himself to death.
22:13 Speaker 06 And you might counsel him moderation if you were really brave. He did a lot of exercise, but it was all related to military training. It wasn't exercise in the same sense as classical Greek exercise or modern exercise. He went jousting, he went hunting, he did archery, he did all those skills. So that kind of exercise went on, but exercise for its own sake or exercise for sport, obviously, that sort of disappears.
22:45 Kate Lister? So it starts to come back in the Renaissance. Can you describe what a Renaissance gym might have looked like?
22:53 Speaker 06 They are aware of exercise and that gyms existed, but they didn't, nobody actually went and built one. It was just, the elites were just not interested. They were interested in better medicine, which is why they encouraged the study of ancient medical texts. But the first gyms really come with the Enlightenment at the end of the 18th century. And what actually triggers the recreation of the gym is the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars. Because all the sort of royal professional armies
23:36 Speaker 06 had been completely destroyed by the French Revolutionary Armies and then by Napoleon. And so a guy in Germany called Friedrich Jahn decided that the German nation needed to be rebuilt from the body up. And he created the first open air gym, which was called in German a Turnplatz, an exercise place, which was again, an open air park, but instead of the Greek sports, he created really the ancestor of artistic gymnastics. So there were sort of parallel bars and things to climb.
24:17 Speaker 06 As well as running tracks and things, but it was all sort of that kind. Imagine a sort of adventure playground with with masks, except it was all of, you know, without padding or anything. So if you fell off a fifty foot mast, you probably did yourself some an injury. So that style of gym sort of exists for the next eighty, ninety years before we start to get indoor gyms again. And then you start to get sort of recognisable, a sort of building with equipment. But that really comes in the nineteenth century or the early twentieth century.
25:00 Kate Lister? And what's happening to the ideal body beautiful image as we're moving through these periods? Has it changed a lot? Because I noticed that women's forms change a lot from the ancient world to now, but male form, it was still buff, buff, buff, everything rippling.
25:17 Speaker 06 Yes, but you have the sort of twelve hundred year gap. So with the Middle Ages, where the body is, unless you count a sort of crucified Christ as a naked body, but not a particularly sensuous one.
25:36 Speaker 06 It's with the Renaissance, you get sort of renewed interest and obviously classical, neoclassical art, so something like Michelangelo's David.
25:47 Kate Lister? Oh, he loved a buff boy.
25:49 Speaker 06 He loved a buff boy. He was definitely had sort of, it was either fully homosexual or bisexual. Oh, anyway, some form of same sex attraction. And as the sort of main expression of the human personality, your embodiment becomes important again. Before, it was all about saving your soul, but now it's about appearing to be the perfect Superman again, just like in ancient times.
26:21 Kate Lister? I suppose fashion must have played a part in this as well, like in in the Middle Ages, very covered up, very, everybody was sort of very covered up from the top down to the toes. And when fashion starts to shift and bodies become more visible, does that have an impact on exercise?
26:37 Speaker 06 Not till the modern period, because people remain covered up.
26:43 Speaker 06 Most of the time, and the only time that Westerners strip off completely naked is when they go swimming. So people like in the 18th century, when they went to the beach, men just went naked. Women still had to swear, it's sort of like a big sort of shift kind of thing. But often they went naked as well. But men definitely swam naked until the end of the 19th century. And then sort of prudity got the better of it. And the beaches insisted on people wearing the one piece that you remember from the old movies.
27:19 Kate Lister? Let's talk about the Victorians because they were health fanatics. They brought back lots of health regimes, lots better than others, it has to be said.
27:30 Speaker 06 Yes, I mean, when the sort of leading light of Victorian health and fitness is a German guy called Eugen Sandau, who came to England. And he'd started off his career as a prizefighter, then as a sort of vaudeville strongman. And he realized that there was a sort of demand for physical training amongst the upper classes who had, let's admit it, overdone it in with, you know, eating, drinking, they all had gout, they all. So there was an awareness that people needed to get fit again. And they turned to men like Sandau.
28:12 Speaker 06 He had a sort of very naturally muscular physique. In fact, he posed naked a lot for reproducing classical statues, which is how he got away with being able to pose naked because, oh, it was, it was art and anatomy. With a sort of largish fig leaf. So he wasn't completely naked. But as still for, you know, the 1890s, it's quite something that they managed to get away with it. And people would buy these photographs and postcards, especially women who seemed to be, you know, quite fond of them.
28:48 Kate Lister? And we've got the emergence of strong women in the 19th century as well. There was there was a female Eugene Sando.
28:56 Speaker 06 Yes, there were quite a few in England and in France and Germany, but they were considered pretty freakish. And you could say that even now, female bodybuilders don't get an amazing press, do they? They're still considered masculine and odd.
29:15 Kate Lister? That's true, yeah.
29:16 Speaker 06 So, yes, they were, but they were a tiny minority even compared to male exercises. So it's only in the modern period and only sort of post-World War II and well after World War II, I'd say that women really break into the gym with Jane Fonda and the exercise video, you know, Jane Fonda's aerobic video, which really changed female embodiment forever because it created the image of the strong woman, but not the sort of, not a woman who was aping a man in terms of masculinity, but who was sort of taking
30:00 Speaker 06 control of her own body and remaining feminine at the same time. I think that was the main selling point of the Jane Fonda video. And she transformed gyms. I mean, I remember before Jane Fonda's exercise videos, gyms were sort of quite sort of masculine, not particularly attractive places, and then were not very attracted to women. And then after sort of the aerobics revolution had come, gyms had transformed. There are dance studios, there are dance classes, aerobics classes. So you have a sort of gendered division of the gym. So you have the men still going to the weight, doing weights, and then you
30:43 Speaker 06 have the women who are doing classes. And then gradually they merge and you have sort of aerobic equipment and men going to classes and, you know, and classes being more directed to men. So things like circuit classes or boxercise, which cater more for for men, and women being attracted to the gym by nice shiny weight training machines rather than nasty old rusty weights.
31:15 Kate Lister? It's still quite divided by gender to this very day. You still get, don't you?
31:21 Speaker 06 I started going to the gym in the eighties and it was really, really noticeable then. I mean, if there was one guy in a dance studio, that was something that you'd notice. My God, you know, there's a guy doing an exercise class. And if there was one woman in the male area in the weights room, that was quite unusual. But now, I mean, I go to a local sort of health centre and it's completely mixed. And there's no gender differentiation really and age wise as well. It used to be younger people, obviously, but now it's everybody from sort of teenagers to pensioners.
32:07 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Eric after this short break.
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32:57 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm Pablo Torre, host of Pablo Torre Finds Out, and I have chased down a lot of strange stories, but nothing quite like what's inside a McDonald's Quarter Pounder with cheese. 100% fresh beef, cooked right when you order it, hand-topped onions, plus cheese and pickles in every bite. And right now, you can get one with medium fries and a drink for just $8, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery, fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery.
33:45 Kate Lister? I love a body pump class and in my body pump class, it's very, very mixed. And there is one woman who is, she must be getting on for 80 and she kicks everyone's arse in that room. She's lifting more weights than anyone else, undefeated. So to take you back to Eugene Sandow, to look at this man, and I encourage everyone to Google him, he is a proper beefcake. Are there any records left to us as to what he's doing to look like this? Because this is pre-anabolic steroids and he looks jacked.
34:18 Speaker 06 Yeah, he was one of those few sort of people with a naturally muscular physique. I mean, he was a prizefighter, he was a wrestler, so that's quite sort of heavy exercise. He did also do weight training and in fact, he established the first real indoor gym in London, in Pall Mall. It was a rather nice wood paneled gym for the British elite, with little cubicles with curtains so people could train privately, especially women. They preferred to train behind the curtain because I suppose they had to let their corsets loose. And it was very much a sort of personal training experience. So each person got
35:03 Speaker 06 an individual trainer and their little set of weights. And that sort of continued until the First World War and then the First World War shut everything down and people had sort of better things to worry about than, you know, what they looked like for the next 30, 40 years because they had two world wars and the Great Depression to live through.
35:25 Kate Lister? I wonder how the world wars actually impacted our sense of being healthy because obviously then the military becomes really present. And if we're looking at what the Nazis were doing, if we have to, but they were pushing ideas of physical fitness and the body beautiful on the perfect Aryan race, weren't they?
35:45 Speaker 06 But they weren't pushing gyms. They were doing sort of these mass group exercise classes, if you think. They were sort of all doing sort of, you know, squat thrusts and jumps and sort of very much sort of everybody doing the same thing at the same time, very much the fascist ideology. And not particularly big or buff. That comes in America where in nineteen thirty eight, the first Superman comic comes out. And that really represents the hyper masculine, hyper muscular ideal that is developing at that point in the United States.
36:29 Speaker 06 And why exactly then? Well, I think you could partially explain it with a reaction against industrialization and mechanization, that people were becoming sort of enslaved to machines. Think of the film Metropolis or Charles Chaplin's Modern Times, where he's sort of completely trapped by the machines. And I think people are trying to sort of reclaim their humanity. And somehow, I think it slightly overshoots and you get this sort of hyper masculine, hyper muscular ideal, which then becomes realized in somebody like Arnold Schwarzenegger,
37:13 Speaker 06 who becomes Mr. Hyper Masculine, Mr. Hyper Muscular. And of course, he does do it with a lot of steroids. He's admitted it. And all that generation of bodybuilders. And they become actors. So there's him and somebody like Louis Ferrigno, who plays the Incredible Hulk. So it becomes disseminated across popular culture. And that becomes a sort of, and there's obviously the film Pumping Iron with Arnold Schwarzenegger as well, which is sort of documentary about his, his time at Gold's Gym, competing for Mr. Universe.
37:52 Speaker 06 And that becomes the, the masculine ideal, probably until the nineties. And then you have a sort of, I think. With the influence of gay people, a lot of gay men joining the gym, of the male embodiment slightly changing in emphasis away from hyper masculinity into sort of more very, very sort of toned, young looking, what I call the fitness body in the book, sort of the guys you see on the posters now advertising underwear.
38:29 Kate Lister? As a very quick side note to this, as someone who was a personal trainer and who's worked with fitness magazines, what would it take to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger? Like, what would that work out with? I bet it's not a body pump class here or there, is it?
38:42 Speaker 06 He's training every day, several hours a day and eating a huge amount and taking a lot of supplements and taking anabolic steroids, which were still, well, probably not legal, completely legal, but they were sort of a sort of accepted part of the the whole thing. And now they've become very, very widespread. It's actually quite a sort of negative outcome of of the social media and people saying, oh, yes, you can be like this naturally. And of course, they're all on steroids themselves, but not admitting, not admitting to it, which
39:23 Speaker 06 in turn encourages the people who follow them to think, oh, well, I'm not getting any bigger. Then I must need steroids, which is a great shame.
39:36 Kate Lister? You touched very briefly there on gay culture, and I think that we should talk about that a little bit more because from talking to you, it seems like the gym has always had that part of it where it's bros together. If you're in Greece, you're naked and you're oiled up, but it's always been a place of male beauty, I suppose, beautiful bodies, people trying to be beautiful. What does the gym mean to gay culture in your opinion?
40:04 Speaker 06 In the seventies, in the pre HIV AIDS pandemic times, it's about reclaiming masculinity. So until then, until gay liberation, gay men were considered effeminate. And in fact, you know, early theories about homosexuality said that men were actually physically changing into women. That's why homosexuality was called inversion by people like Freud. And then you have gay liberation and gay men trying to, you know, abandon those labels and reclaim their sort of their pride. And you, the first sort of manifestation of that is the, I don't know if you remember
40:48 Speaker 06 the clone, the gay man in a check shirt with a moustache. That's in the sort of nineteen seventies. That's sort of the first sort of masculine iteration of gay identity. And that quickly morphs into people starting to go to the gym and sort of building up their bodies. And then you get the HIV epidemic and people become much more health conscious, especially when the treatments appear and people are not just going to die. There's a phenomenon who appears, the person who's called the pos jock, the HIV positive jock.
41:30 Speaker 06 So the really buff guy at the gym and he's HIV positive. So that's sort of disappeared now and there are far fewer gay gyms around because gay men have become much more accepted within society. So they just go to any gym really. But I think what the impact of gay gym culture has been, it's been back on to straight men, that how gay men look has become more the ideal than the super muscular, than the Arnold Schwarzenegger type.
42:06 Kate Lister? Yep.
42:07 Speaker 06 That's seen as sort of a bit over the top. So so first, the sort of gym people in influenced gays to reclaim their masculinity. And now it's the gays influencing the straights about how they embody themselves.
42:23 Kate Lister? And there's that really interesting trope that for the longest time, muscle magazines acted as proxy gay erotica for a lot of men in the closet because they could buy these fitness magazines and then say, I'm only, I'm just really interested in health and not have to fess up to the fact that, yeah, but you think he's really pretty, though.
42:48 Speaker 06 That's probably true. And they are pushing a very standardized, I'm thinking of Men's Health here. Every other cover is, you know, how to get a six pack or how to lose, you know, how to get really cut or, you know, it's sort of endless repetition of the same thing, slightly altered. So so you keep buying the magazine. So look good for summer, look good for winter, you know, get a six pack for summer.
43:16 Kate Lister? And as a final question, let's think about the future of the gym, because I think it's here to stay. I can't see another vanishing of it, like what happened with the Romans and the Greeks. I think it's very much a message in our culture now. But what do you see as the future of the gym?
43:33 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think, I mean, it's definitely growing. When I did the book, which was about a decade ago, we had about eleven, twelve percent of people in the UK going to the gym. It's now gone up to seventeen percent. And that figure is about twenty five percent of twenty five to thirty four year olds. So it's quite a sort of increase, even in ten years. And I think, yes, gyms are becoming quite a lot of specialist offerings. So those sort of the sort of peloton type, you know, the cycling type gyms, sort of the big, I mean, there's, there's still a huge range of, you know, the budget gym has now, you
44:18 Speaker 06 know, you pay your twenty quid and you're a member of the gym. So I think there are lots of. Innovations within the gym as well in terms of sort of digital online stuff. So bikes with big screens so that you can cycle through the the Italian countryside or, you know, the Alps or something. So I think that's going to keep going and virtual reality. I think virtual reality gyms, you know, you're going to be there in your little booth with your goggles on.
44:53 Kate Lister? Oh, God, yeah.
44:54 Speaker 06 Training with an ancient Greek athlete or with a 19th century German athlete or with Arnold Schwarzenegger in the gym. I think that's probably the future of the gym.
45:08 Kate Lister? Eric, you have been marvellous to talk to. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
45:15 Speaker 06 In good libraries. I don't know if I'm still available on in bookshops. I probably, yes, on Amazon, yes. And there's The Temple of Perfection. And there's also The History of Swimming, which is called Strokes of Genius, which, if you're interested in swimming, also goes back to antiquity.
45:33 Kate Lister? Amazing. Thank you so much for talking to me today. You've been wonderful.
45:46 Kate Lister? Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Eric for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along, wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject or maybe you just fancied saying hi, then you can email us at [email protected] . We've got episodes on everything from the brothel of Pompeii to the history of red lipstick all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
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