The Invisible War Criminals

In part 2 of the 2024 Better Offline finale, Ed Zitron tells you how to fight back against the growth-at-all-costs Rot Economy and its destruction of the tech ecosystem - by pushing the media to improve their coverage, telling everybody you know who's responsible, and remembering what it is you truly love about technology. --- LINKS: https://www.tinyurl.com/betterofflinelinks Newsletter: https://www.wheresyoured.at/ Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BetterOffline/ Discord: chat.wheresyoured.at https://discord.com/invite/QUUQUP9szv Ed's Socials: https://twitter.com/edzitron https://www.instagram.com/edzitron https://bsky.app/profile/edzitron.com https://www.threads.net/@edzitron See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Running a small business takes everything you've got. But with Chase for Business, you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than 7 million customers. With a deep understanding of your day-to-day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive. Right now, earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires January 21, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chase.com/podcastbizoffer. Chase, make more of what's yours.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts. The $500 offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities through January 21, 2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 1:18Ed Zitron?

  Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host, Ed Zitrock.

• 1:32Ed Zitron?

  This is the finale of this year. Even though you're hearing it in 2025, I need you to just mentally imagine it's 2024. I did my best, okay? Anyway, in the last episode, I talked about the scale of the rot economy and specifically the practical elements and the practical results of growth at all costs thinking. And in this one, I want to talk about how we fight back. Ideas are powerful and things change, as silly as it sounds, from the regular repetition of the names of those responsible and clear descriptions of the things they've done to us. Now, you know I've written and spoken a lot about the rot economy and the growth at all costs mindset fucks things up. And it's what directly leads tech companies to make their products worse. But what I've tried to do in these episodes is quantify the scale,

• 2:16Ed Zitron?

  both the damage it's caused and the billions of people it affects every day. Everything I've discussed around the chaos and the pain of the internet is a result of corporations and private equity firms buying media properties and immediately trying to make them grow, each in wildly different ways, all clamouring to be the next New York Times or Variety or other legacy media brand, despite the fact that those brands already exist and the ideas for competing with them usually are built on these unsustainably large staffs and expensive consultants telling you to hire more people. Almost every single store you visit on the internet has this massive data layer on the background that feeds them data about what's popular, or where people are spending time on the sites, and will turn and change things about their design to subtly encourage

• 2:58Ed Zitron?

  you to buy more stuff, trapping you there, all so that more money comes out, no matter what the cost, even if it's harder to find the things you actually want. Even if the data isn't personalised, it's still quite powerful, and it turns so many experiences inside and outside shopping and social media and the news into these subtle horrible manipulations. Every single weird thing that you've experienced with an app or service online is the dread hand of the rot economy, the gravitational pull of growth that demands upon you, the user, to do something, something for the company. And when everybody is trying to chase growth, nobody is thinking stability, and because everybody is trying to grow, everybody sort of copies everybody else's ideas, which is why we see microtransactions and invasive ads and annoying tricks that all kind of

• 3:43Ed Zitron?

  feel the same way in everything, though they're all subtly different and customised just for that one app. It's exhausting. Now, for a while, I've had the rot economy compared to Corey Doctorow's excellent insittification theory, and I think it's a great time to compare and separate the two, because I think they can live together quite well. And also Corey is exceedingly smart, and I put a great deal of value in his thoughts. To quote Corey in the Financial Times, "Insittification is his theory explaining how the internet was colonised by platforms, why all of those platforms are degrading so quickly and thoroughly, why it matters, and what we can do about it." And I'll link to these in the show notes. He describes the first three stages of decline. First, platforms are good to their users, then they abuse their users to make things

• 4:27Ed Zitron?

  better for their business customers, finally they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Now, I agree with Corey on some levels, but I believe he gives far more credit to the platforms in question than they deserve, and sees far more intention or strategy than really exist. I fundamentally disagree about the business customers even being some elevated class in the equation. As we've seen in the Google Ads trial, Google didn't really give a shit about its business customers to begin with, and they've always sought a monopoly and made things worse for whoever it needed to as a means of increasing growth. Maybe I'm just playing semantics, though. However, Corey's theory lacks a real perpetrator beyond corporations that naturally say, "All right, time for some enshitification, watch this." Again, I don't think it's that intentional.

• 5:09Ed Zitron?

  Maybe it's an effect, maybe it's a movement, maybe it's a naturally occurring thing. Where the rot economy separates is that growth is in and of itself the force that drives companies to enshitify. While enshitification really fits across companies and fits there neatly like Spotify and Meta and their ad-focused business models, it doesn't really make sense when it comes to things where there isn't a clear split between business and consumers like Microsoft or Salesforce, because enshitification is ultimately one part of the larger rot economy, where everything must grow forever, whether it's in tech or not. And I believe the phenomenon that captures both is a direct result of the work of men like Jack Welch and Milton Friedman. Go back and listen to The Shareholder Supremacy if you hadn't. The rot economy is selfish and potently neoliberal. Corporations are bowed down to like gods.

• 5:54Ed Zitron?

  The powerful only seek more at all times and all costs, even if said cost is that the company might eventually die because we burned out any value it actually has, or people are harmed constantly whenever they pick up their phone. The rot economy is neoliberalism's true innovation, a kind of economic cancer that with really has few reasons to exist beyond more and a few justifications beyond if we don't let it keep growing, then everybody's pensions might blow up. To be clear, Corey is for the most part right. Enshitification successfully encapsulates how the modern web was destroyed in a way that nobody really has. I'm exceedingly grateful for Corey's work, and I think having him around is so good for society. I was so happy to have him on an episode a few months ago, and I look forward to having him again.

• 6:39Ed Zitron?

  He's also a lovely fella. And I really think that insittification applies in a wide-ranging way to a wide amount of tech companies and effects. There's also a great thing in the Volt's newsletter that I'll link about insittification within climate, for example. Corey's brilliant. However, I believe the wider problem is bigger and the costs are far greater. It isn't that everything is insittified. It's that everybody's pursuit of growth has changed the incentive behind how we generate value in the world. And software enables a specific kind of growth lust by creating virtual nation-states with their own digital despots. While laws may stop Meta from tearing up people's houses surrounding its offices and one hack away, it can happily reroute traffic and engagement on Facebook and Instagram

• 7:21Ed Zitron?

  to make things in IOTA more profitable. And there's no government institution that's sitting around thinking, huh, is this bad? Is this bad for people? Now, the rot economy isn't just growth-at-all-costs thinking. It's a kind of secular religion, something to believe in that isn't really connected to anything other than more. And it's that everything and anything can be more, should be more, must be more, that we're only defined by our pursuit of more growth and that something that isn't growing isn't alive and ends, as a result, inferior. I'm not saying this is how everybody thinks, but I'm convinced that everybody is burdened by the rot economy and that digital ecosystems allow the poison of growth to find new and

• 8:03Ed Zitron?

  more destructive ways to dilute a human being to a series of numbers that can be made to grow or contract in the pursuit of capital.

• 8:11Ed Zitron?

  Almost every corner of our lives has been turned into some sort of number, and increasing that number is important to us. Bank account balances, sure, but also engagement numbers, followers, number of emails sent and received, open rates on newsletters, how many times something has been viewed, all numbers set by other people that we live our lives by while barely understanding what they mean or how they alter our behaviour. Human beings thrive on ways to define themselves, but metrics often rob us of our individuality. Products that boil us down to metrics are likely to fail to account for the true depth of anything we are actually doing, or anything they're actually capturing. The change in incentives towards driving more growth actively pushes out those with long-term thinking. It encourages hiring people who see growth as the driver of a company's success, and

• 8:55Ed Zitron?

  in turn, investment, research, and development into mechanisms of growth, which may sometimes be things that help you, but that isn't necessarily the reason they're doing it. Organizational culture and hiring stops prioritizing people that fix customer problems or even understand them, because that's not really the priority, nor how one makes a business continue to grow. And I think the rot economy is a social thing as well. We're all pushed towards growth: personal growth, professional growth, growth in our network, and our societal status. And the terms of this growth, they're often set by platforms and media outlets that are in turn pursuing their own growth. And as I've discussed, the way the terms of our growth is framed is almost entirely through a digital ecosystem of warring intents and different ways of pursuing and promoting growth.

• 9:38Ed Zitron?

  Some ethical, but many not. Societal and cultural pressure is nothing new, but the ways we experience it are now elaborate and chaotic. Our relationships, professional, personal, and romantic, are processed through the funhouse mirror of the platforms, changing in ways both subtle and overt based on the signals we receive and the people we care about, each one twisted and processed through the lens of a product manager and a growth hacker who may not really care about what we're doing, other than that we're doing it. Changes to these platforms, even subtle ones, actively change the lives of billions of people, and it feels that we talk about it like being online is some hobbyist pursuit, rather than something that many people do more than seeing real people in the real world. I believe that we exist in a continual tension with the rot economy and the growth-at-all-cost mindset.

• 10:22Ed Zitron?

  I believe that the friction we feel on platforms and apps between what we want to do and what the app wants us to do is one of the most under-discussed and significant culture of phenomena, where we, despite being customers, are continually berated and conned and swindled and fucked. I believe billions of people are in active combat with their devices every day, swiping away notifications, dodging intrusive apps, agreeing to privacy policies that they don't understand, desperately trying to find an option they used that has been moved because the product manager has decided it needed to be somewhere else. I realize it's tough to conceptualize because it's so ubiquitous, but how much do you fight with your computer and smartphone every day? How many times does something break? How many times have you downloaded an app and found that it didn't really do the thing you wanted it to?

• 11:06Ed Zitron?

  How many times have you wanted to do something simple and found that it's actually really annoying? How much of your life is dodging digital debris, avoiding scams, ads, apps that demand permissions, and endless goddamn menu options that bury the simple things that you want to do? It's like I said, you're the victim of a scam. You've spent years of your life explaining to yourself and others that this is just how things are, accepting conditions that are inherently exploitative and abusive. You are more than likely not deficient, stupid, or behind the times, and even if you are, there shouldn't be a multi-trillion-dollar ecosystem built to monetize your ignorance. And it's time to start holding those responsible accountable.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 12:30Speaker 04

  Financial growth begins long before the first investment. It comes from understanding what you're building toward, what's at stake, and what success looks like for you. At Oppenheimer, we bring bold thinking guided by the full strength of our expertise to put capital to work building and protecting wealth that lasts generations. Put the power of Oppenheimer Thinking to work for you. Wealth management, capital markets, investment banking.

• 13:02Ed Zitron?

  I'm fairly regularly asked why all of this matters to me so much. So as I wrap up the year, I'm going to try and answer that question and explain why it is I do what I do. All right.

• 13:13Ed Zitron?

  I spent a lot of time alone as a kid. I wasn't popular. Actually, that that isn't really accurate because that would suggest I like had friends. I didn't really had friends. I had some people I knew, like similar people who existed to be bullied. I'm not trying to be maudlin here. I'm just describing the terms. I was insular. I was scared of the world. I felt ostracized, unnoticed. Not many teenagers do. And I felt like I was out of place in humanity and it really weighed on my soul. And the only place I found any kind of community or any place I could build an identity was being online. My life was and is defined by technology and I'm not ashamed of that. A lot of people talk about, oh, people are online too much, not even necessarily talking about me, or how the internet hurts you and it's this, and it hurts you because of the platforms.

• 13:58Ed Zitron?

  But I believe at scale, the internet is actually quite beautiful. Had social networking not come along, I'm not confident I'd have made many, if any, of the friendships I have today, or really any friendships of any kind. For the first 22 years of my life, I really struggled to make friends in the real world for a number of reasons. Many of them my fault, by the way. But I made so many online and that became a bridge to making real friendships. I kept and I nurtured friendships indeed with people thousands of miles away. And my shyness that I had as a person became less of an issue when I could avoid the troublesome, "hey, I'm Ed" part that really got in my way. Without the internet, I'd probably be like a resentful hermit. I'd be disconnected from humanity.

• 14:42Ed Zitron?

  There'd be just these layers of scar tissue over whatever neurodivergent or unfortunate habits I'd gained from a childhood I mostly spent alone. I don't want you to feel sorry for me, by the way. None of that was about me being sad. It's actually really trying to explain something joyous and that's a big part of who I am. Technology is a big part of who I am. So like I said, don't feel sorry for me. Tech allowed me to thrive. I have a business, I have an upcoming book, this newsletter, I have this podcast, I have these wonderful, beautiful friends that I deeply love. And if you're wondering if it's you, it is you. I love you. And these people have come pretty much exclusively through technology of some sort, like a social network, or a result of a digital connection of some kind. And I'm immensely grateful for everything I have,

• 15:26Ed Zitron?

  and I'm grateful that technology allowed me to live this full and happy life. And I imagine many of you feel the same way. Your frustrations aren't just about the apps being bad, but the internet has a goodness to it. It has a value. Otherwise, we wouldn't stick our hands in the box that the Bene Gesserit gives us every morning. And tech has found so many ways to make our lives better. Perhaps more in some cases than others. But I'm not gonna lie and pretend I don't love technology. I think that that wouldn't serve you, or serve anyone. And I think this kind of noxious, "Ugh, all tech's bad." It isn't all bad, but the people running it are. The rot economy has fucked up tech so badly. But in the process

• 16:08Ed Zitron?

  of doing this podcast, of writing my newsletter, it's just made me intimately aware of the gratuitous, avaricious, and intentional harm that these people are causing, that the people running the tech industry have caused to their customers, and this horrifying and selfish world they've made, and the ruinous consequences that followed. The things that I've watched happen this year alone, which have at times been an enumeration of about a decade of rot, they've turned my goddamn stomach. You know what's also done that? The outright cowardice of some people that claim to inform the public, but choose instead to reinforce the structures of the powerful. And a little side note to my good friend Casey Newton right now. You should all go and look up his thing about the phony comforts of AI skeptics, where he

• 16:52Ed Zitron?

  bags on Gary Marcus. Why are you bagging on Gary Marcus, Casey, you fucking coward? This piece attacked AI skeptics with the flimsiest stuff. Casey Newton has an audience of over 100,000 people that he's ostensibly informing. This stuff hurts people. Having popular journalists that won't enumerate the damage being done, that won't give the honest truth about things. It's disgusting. It turns my stomach. And as these two-part episodes have shown you, the scale of damage done by people like Facebook, like Mark Zuckerberg, Casey's good friend.

• 17:27Ed Zitron?

  It's disgusting. Okay, wheeling that back, by the way, I don't know if they're good friends, but I know they text. Anyway, back to the show, I'll put my bitch fest aside. Look, I'm a user, I'm a guy with a podcast and a newsletter, but behind the mic and the keyboard, I'm a person that uses the same services as you do, and I see the shit done to us, and I just feel poison in my veins. I'm not holding back, as you've kind of worked out by now, we're like sixty episodes in, and I don't think you should either. What's being done to us isn't just unfair, it's larceny, it's cruel, it's exploitative, it's morally wrong. Some may try and dismiss what I'm saying as just social media, it's just how apps work, and if that's what you truly think, you're either a beaten dog or a willing or unwilling operative for people running

• 18:12Ed Zitron?

  a con. I will never forgive these people for what they've done to the computer, and the more I learn about both their intentions and the actions they've taken, the more certain I become that these people are unrepentant and that their greed will never be sated. I've watched them take the things that made me human, social networking, digital communities, apps, and the other connecting fabric of our digital lives, and turn them into devices of torture, profitable mechanisms of abuse, and I find it disgusting how many reporters seem to believe it's their responsibility to thank them and explain why it's good that this is happening to their readers. And let's run down the scumbags, shall we? Sam Altman's a goddamn con artist, he's a liar and a sleazy carnival barker, who would burn our planet to the ground, steal from millions of people and burn billions

• 18:56Ed Zitron?

  of dollars in pursuit of power, and I believe the same can be said of people like Dario Amadeo Vanthropic and Mustafa Suleyman of Microsoft. Tim Cook of Apple, he's a wolf in sheep's clothing, he slowly allows the rot to seep into Apple's products. Apple Intelligence is goddamn awful, it sucks, it gets in the way, the summaries suck, Image Playground sucks, everyone saying this doesn't suck is up their own asshole, they need to look, look at the actual products, they don't work, and they've slowly been adding these bothersome subscription options, and they chip away at the user experience, the one company that I really didn't want to do this, and yet, let's take a step back to the beginning of the show, Apple's App Store and its repeated support of exploitative microtransaction-laden mobile games built to create gambling-like

• 19:37Ed Zitron?

  addiction in adults and children alike, they make billions of dollars off of them, and because Apple's products are less shitty, they get a much easier time. Now, let's talk about two of my faves, my besties. Now, I hold Sundar Pichai in a certain kind of esteem, by which I believe that Sundar Pichai of Google is the Henry Kissinger of technology, a glossy executive that escapes blame despite having caused harm on a global scale. The destruction of Google search at the hands of Sundar Pichai and Prabha Gargavan should be written about like a war crime and those responsible treated as such. And by the way, Prabha Garg, if you're hearing this, hello, baby. I love you. I love saying your name and I'm going to be saying it forever. Now, let's get to Microsoft.

• 20:18Ed Zitron?

  Satya Nadella has aggressively expanded Microsoft's various monopolies, the most egregious of which, by the way, is the Microsoft 365 suite, which is a monopoly over business software that everyone kind of hates, that Microsoft prices to undercut the competition, effectively setting conditions of most business software as either cheaper than Microsoft or slightly better than Microsoft. Nadella has overseen layoffs of tens of thousands of people in the last three years alone, and despite his bullshit growth mindset culture, he treats his employees and customers as equally disposable. And of course, he's the guy that has made OpenAI happen, which in turn means he's responsible for generative AI at scale. And let's end with Meta's Mark Zuckerberg, who is a putrid ghoul that has overseen the growth and proliferation of some of the single most abusive and manipulative software in the world.

• 21:03Ed Zitron?

  Meta has grown to a market cap of $1.5 trillion by intentionally making the experience on Instagram and Facebook worse, intentionally frustrating and harming billions of people, actively interfering with the fabric of society. These are the people in charge. These are the people running the tech industry. These are the people who make the decisions that affect billions of people every minute of every day and their decision-making is so flagrantly selfish and abusive that I'm regularly astonished by how little criticism they receive. These men lace our digital lives with asbestos and get told they're geniuses for doing so because money comes out. But the truth is, I don't know or care whether these men know who I am or read my work because I only care that you do.

• 21:45Ed Zitron?

  I don't give a shit if Sam Altman or Mark Zuckerberg knows my name. I don't care about their riches or their achievements. I care that when given so many resources, such privilege and such opportunity to change the world, they chose to make it worse. These men are tantamount to war criminals, except in 30 years, Mark Zuckerberg may still be seen as a success, though I will spend the rest of my life telling you the damage he's caused.

• 22:10Ed Zitron?

  I care about you, the user, the person listening to this. The person that may have felt stupid, or deficient, or ignorant, all because the services you pay for, or that monetize you, have been intentionally rigged against you. You aren't the failure. The services, the devices, and the executives are. If you cannot see the significance of the problems I discuss every week, the sheer scale of the rot, the sheer damage caused by unregulated and unrepentant managerial parasites, you are living in a fantasy world and I both envy and worry about you. You're the frog in the pot, and trust me, the stove's on. 2025 will be the year of chaos, fear, and a deficit of hope. But I will spend every breath I have telling you what I believe and telling you that I care, and that you are not alone.

• 22:56Ed Zitron?

  For years, I've watched the destruction of the services and the mechanisms that were responsible for allowing me to have a normal life, to thrive, to be able to speak with a voice that was truly mine. I've watched them burn, or worse, turned into these abominable growth vehicles of men disconnected from society and humanity. I owe my life to an internet I've watched turned into these abuse factories worth billions, or if not trillions of dollars, and I've watched the people responsible get glad-handled and applauded. I will scream at them into my dying fucking breath. I have had a blessed life, and I'm lucky that I wasn't born even a year earlier or later. But the way I've grown up and seen things changed has allowed me to fully comprehend how much damage is being done today,

• 23:37Ed Zitron?

  and how much worse is to come if we don't hold these people accountable. The least they deserve is a spoken or written record of their sins, and the least you deserve is to be reminded that you are the victim.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Empower is all about helping you invest well, so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 24:33Speaker 05

  The world is transforming faster than ever, and standing still isn't an option. At Oppenheimer, we're working at the forefront of the innovation economy to invest where progress begins, finding opportunities that build and protect wealth for individuals and institutions that want a seat at the edge of tomorrow. Put the power of Oppenheimer Thinking to work for you. Wealth Management, Capital Markets, Investment Banking.

• 25:06Ed Zitron?

  I don't think you realize how powerful it is being armed with knowledge, the clarity of what's being done to you and why, and the names of the people responsible. This is an invisible war, and a series of invisible war crimes perpetuated against billions of people in a trillion different ways every moment of every day. And it's everywhere, a constant in our lives which makes enumerating and conceptualizing it difficult. But you can help. You talking about the truth behind generative AI, or the harms of Facebook, or the gratuitous destruction of Google Search will change things, because these people are unprepared for a public that knows both what they've done and their sickening, loathsome, selfish, and greedy intentions. Saying Prabha Garghavand is both very fun, try it yourself. Say Prabha Garghavand in the shower, on the toilet,

• 25:51Ed Zitron?

  Prabha Garghavand at an NFL game. And then when someone says, "Who's Prabha Garghavand?", you say, "Well, he's the guy who destroyed Google Search." Nah, look, I get it. It's just talking, right? But the way that people disconnect from these services and take a stand starts with the clear discussion of the problem and reframing, "I don't get technology to Prabha Garghavand destroyed Google Search." It spreads through groups, organizations, and governments. It gets somewhere. Most people, believe it or not, don't know about the rot economy or about the people responsible, and assume they got older rather than technology getting worse. Really, this is a moment of solidarity. We're all harmed by the rot economy. We're all victims. And it takes true opulence to escape it. And I'm guessing you don't have it. I certainly don't. But talking about it, refusing to go quietly, refusing to slow it down the slot willingly

• 26:36Ed Zitron?

  or pleasantly is enough. The conversations are getting louder. The anger is getting too hard to ignore. These companies will be forced to change through public pressure and the knowledge of their deeds, and pressure on the media outlets you read and listen to that choose willingly to prop them up.

• 26:52Ed Zitron?

  Holding these people to a higher standard at scale is what brings about change. Be the wrench in the machine, be the person that explains to a friend why Facebook sucks now, and who chose to make it suck. Adam Mosseri, by the way. It's Adam Mosseri, Mark Zuckerberg, and the rest of the growth team. Naomi Glight's another great one as well. Javier Oliveran. They're all in. Go listen to the episode and tell your friends. Be the person to explain who Prabha Gargavan is and what his role was in making Google search worse. Say it, say his name with your friends. Say it to the mailman. Be the person who tells people that Sam Altman burns $5 billion a year on unsustainable software that destroys the environment and is built upon the largest scale larceny of creative works ever to happen, all because he's desperate for power. He is already a billionaire. He was already there.

• 27:38Ed Zitron?

  Because every time you do this, you destabilize them. They've succeeded in a decades-long marketing campaign where tech people get called geniuses for making things that are necessary to function in society and then making them worse. You can change that. I also want to be clear, I don't give a shit if you cite me. It's cool if you say where you found it, but I really don't care. I really don't. Tell people. That's what matters. Tell everybody, spread the word. You yourself can be a little better offline. I don't mean that as a pump, but you know what I mean. Spread the blood, the word. Say what they've done. Say their names, say their names again and again and again, so that it becomes a contagion. They've twisted and broken and hypermonetized everything. How you make friends, how you fall in love, how you bank, how you listen to music, how you find information.

• 28:23Ed Zitron?

  Never let their names be spoken without disgust. Be the sandpaper in their veins and the graffiti on their fucking legacies. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of it. And if you're with me, just tell people. Don't even talk about me. I'm not important. What's important is that you know and the others know too. And you'll feel a lot of dread going into the next year, but that's what the darkness wants. That's what authoritarianism craves. Hopelessness, emptiness, and energy deficit that anchors you to the earth. And I can't promise you that I'm fixing anything with a podcast. I can't promise you what I'm saying is going to fix you in any way, but I hope it at least invigorates you. I hope it makes you feel less alone. I hope you know that others feel the way you do too, and that someone, somewhere is outraged on your behalf because I am.

• 29:10Ed Zitron?

  Now we're gonna get to the schmaltzy part because I have to. I'm a big emotional guy. Last year in my life's been incredible. I've been very lucky to do this show. It's allowed me to meet wonderful people that I adore. And I'm gonna talk about them now. And if you don't like it, what's wrong with you? I get so angry. Let me be happy for a moment and be happy for these people. They're absolutely wonderful. A year in, I want to thank Sophie Lichtman and Robert Evans for having faith in me to do this. I stood alone in my kitchen in February and I was like pacing around and I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm not gonna tell them because they contracted me. And I mostly worked it out as it went along and they were extremely supportive. And I wasn't sure where I would take this, but both of them told me to go as hard as I needed to,

• 29:54Ed Zitron?

  however I wanted to. Not once have either of them said nah, or hey, Ed, I don't know about this. Or Ed, can you change this? Except in one episode's case where it was actually the pilots and it needed a re-recording. It was not good enough, but that's what they're there for. They've humored these insane 500 word rants at like 11:00 PM on a Tuesday. Where I'm like, I think that this should happen. And then they've taken these concepts and been like, hey, why don't you do this? But fundamentally, they have, and all of Cool Zone Media has, been insanely supportive, both of the ideas, but also the outrage. And also the true support they've given me to do this as creative expression, but also a value generating podcast has been incredible.

• 30:39Ed Zitron?

  And regardless of how you feel about what I do, there really isn't anything out there like Better Offline. It's a result of having the kind of an army behind me, both as part of the show and these people who just show me incredible love, who I adore so much and I'm so grateful for. And you're just gonna have to sit there and let me list them. And if you don't like it, you need to tell your friends you love them instead. Pause the show, call your mum, call your friends, tell everyone you know you love them. Well, life is short. Let's start with the thanks. I want to thank Matt Asowski, Ian Johnson and Daniel Goodman for producing the show. Matt Asowski is the person who will hear this first and he also hears the cuts between where I'm swearing and I mess up really obvious words. These, they're all amazing.

• 31:22Ed Zitron?

  The actual iHeartRadio producers are angels, all of them. They care so much about this. Daniel Goodman, as well as being incredible getting me in the studios in New York. There's gonna be a lot more of that next year as I'm gonna be in New York way more. Say hello. I of course want to thank Matt Hughes for editing these scripts and riffing on many of the ideas and supporting me unwaveringly. Matt Hughes is the fifth Beatle, if there were five of us, I guess the second Beatle, I don't know, but I love Matt so much. He's a wonderful friend, but also he's as angry as I am about this shit. We cook together. It's wonderful. I also want to thank Casey Kagawa right at the top because Casey is actually the person who really worked on the rot economy with me back in February 2023. He has been someone who's been formative. More work. Love you, man. I love all these people. I'm

• 32:05Ed Zitron?

  not just going to say I love you every time, but just I've told all of you. Matt Weinberger, of course, Kylie Roberson, Christina Warren, Tajana Vajnavik, Phil Broughton, Caleb Wilson, and Areeh Hassan. They've all regularly helped me work ideas out, even when I'm just rambling to them in Signal.

• 32:22Ed Zitron?

  And if you're not on this list, please reach out. I'm sorry. What I'm getting at is that, look, I'm lucky to have so many wonderful people that I've been able to connect with in my life. And whatever you hear or read me say is only possible as a result of these people that have given me this strength. And all of them came from the internet. All of them came from it. All of them are a result. Every single person that I've listed there is someone I've met digitally. I'm not kissing up to the platforms, but the concept of the internet has been so important to me. And I think it has been to you too. And the anger in my heart is that I see it being stolen from us. I see it being taken away by people who make so much money making it worse. And the forces I criticize, they don't see beauty

• 33:05Ed Zitron?

  in human beings. They don't see us as these remarkable things that generate ideas, both incredibly stupid and incredible. And they don't see talent or creativity as something that's innately human. They see it as a commodity to be condensed and monetized and replicated so that they ultimately own whatever value we have. Something you'd only believe was possible if you were a disgusting management consultant gargoyle with no connection to real people that should be put in the carnival prism. Look, you deserve better than what they've given you. You deserve better than what I've given you, which is why I'm going to work even harder in 2025. I'm lucky to have you. I'm so grateful for this podcast. I'm, it's a privilege to do this and I love hearing from you. Email me at

• 33:44Ed Zitron?

  That's ez or z at betteroffline.com. I try and respond to every email. I have a big following on Blue Sky. That's the place to find me. I hear from a lot of people thanking me and each time I want you to know it's extremely meaningful and I love it and thank you. It means a great deal to me. You take even a second out of your time, let alone the thirty minutes for this episode or however much it ends up being. I'm really lucky and I'm, I hope I'm helping and I'll continue to try. I'll continue to do my best here. Look, wanky as it sounds, this has been a very personal journey. The last year has been personally and professionally crazy for me, but also digging through

• 34:28Ed Zitron?

  all of the tech industry, trying to work out why Facebook's bad, Instagram's bad, Google's bad. I did this because I did not understand. You hear on this podcast me working things out. You hear my personal journey with technology and the fact that my life is technology. My life's kind of chaotic, but a lot of that chaos is reined in by technology, by being able to digitally handle things. I don't know what I'd do without it. I write nine words per minute. My hand physically hurts. I don't know how I'd get by without the digital connections I have. I don't know what I would do without this. And I don't know if you feel the same. I don't know. And maybe I'm strange for being so online. I don't mean extremely online in the performative sense like I'm on Tumblr and I can tell you what memes are popular.

• 35:14Ed Zitron?

  I mean, I'm online talking to my friends. I'm online dicking around on Blue Sky. I'm online writing business emails or writing scripts. It's how my life has been. It's how I've done everything. It's how I've got everything and I'm so grateful for it. And then this last year, I've just been constantly reading the people, sending emails to each other, celebrating how much worse it's got. How much more profitable it is and seeing journalists that actively see these people acting this way. These people who are either making platforms worse or making things that don't work very well, that burn the environment, that burn billions of dollars of cash and clapping and being like, oh, sir, oh, Mr. Altman, you're so good.

• 35:56Ed Zitron?

  Oh, Mr. Amadai, please give me more broken anthropic products. I need them. And it's fucking sickening to me. Build a real internet. Build something that matters. Help people be stronger, be better, have deeper connections. Not this rot economy bullshit. And I know I'm a dramatic person and I'm not going to get less dramatic. I'm sorry. If anything, it's going to get more dramatic. But the outrage and emotion you hear in me is because I've watched something that formed me as a person get destroyed or poisoned. Toxins dumped on top of it. Its users forced the slurp it down. And it pisses me off. It pisses me off because, as I've said in these two episodes, you can really see the

• 36:41Ed Zitron?

  scale at which the rot economy hurts people. But also, like I said, this is a personal journey. Even though it's a business thing with like numbers and such, economic analysis and all this, a lot of it's me trying to work out why something I love is being hurt. While the tech industry that really gave me my life is run by people who don't seem to care about technology or the people it serves. It fills me full of anger because there's goodness here. There's greatness here. The people I hear from every week, even every day now, I'm really lucky. I do so, I hear from them because of the internet. They manage to get through the noise to me and it's lovely and I'm so grateful. I promise you, the next year is going to be wild.

• 37:26Ed Zitron?

  I'm going to put my all into it. The first week of January, you're going to get the most insane CES coverage. Me, Edward O'Grayso Jr. and David Roth of Defector will be on the floor. We will have two episodes a day, an hour and a half each, with a rotating cast of different people, including Robert Evans and Gare Davis. You're going to have some really fun coverage of the show, but what CES is going to mean every year going forward is a bubble of sorts. A bubble of how everyone's feeling about technology. I don't think they're feeling good. But know this, listener. You're who I care about. Don't care about the tech people. I care about the tech and how it helps you. And if it hurts you, I want to hurt it back.

• 38:11Ed Zitron?

  Thank you so much for listening to last year. I can't believe how far this show has gone, but I'm going to work my ass off to make it even bigger and better for you.

• 38:27Ed Zitron?

  Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at mattosowski.com. M A T T O S O W S K I dot com. You can email me at [email protected] or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot where's your ed dot at to visit the Discord and go to r slash better offline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

• 38:59Speaker 06

  Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 40:03Speaker 07

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.