CES 2026: Part Four (Wednesday)

Welcome to Better Offline’s coverage of the 2026 Consumer Electronics Show - a standup radio station in the Palazzo Hotel with an attached open bar where reporters, experts and various other characters bring you the stories from the floor. In Wednesday's first episode, Ed is joined by Garrison Davis of It Could Happen Here, Matt Binder of Mashable, Ben Rudolph of Cartographiq, standup comedian and host of the Factually Podcast Adam Conover, Ed Ongweso Jr. of the Tech Bubble Newsletter, and standup comedian and actor Chloe Radcliffe to talk about an “agent-powered” BBQ, showstoppers, the multiple wife cubes being shown on the floor, how solving male loneliness comes from male introspection, empathy and kindness, and how CES perpetuates a culture of trying to make women the solution instead. EXCLUSIVE CES SALE! Get a *permanent* $10 off an annual subscription to my newsletter through January 13 2025: https://edzitronswheresyouredatghostio.outpost.pub/public/promo-subscription/cue848p5sc Ed Ongweso Jr.: https://bsky.app/profile/bigblackjacobin.bsky.social The Tech Bubble Newsletter: https://thetechbubble.substack.com/ Matt Binder: https://mashable.com/author/matt-binder Gare Davis: https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:jm6ufvsw3hg5zgdpnd3zb4tv Chloe Radcliffe: https://www.instagram.com/chloebadcliffe/?hl=en https://punchup.live/chloeradcliffe Adam Conover: https://www.instagram.com/adamconover/?hl=en www.adamconover.net/tourdates https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates Ben Rudolph: https://www.cartografiq.com/ https://x.com/benthepcguy Donate in Sean-Paul’s honor: https://www.perc-epilepsy.org/ --- LINKS: https://www.tinyurl.com/betterofflinelinks Newsletter: https://www.wheresyoured.at/ Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BetterOffline/ Discord: chat.wheresyoured.at https://discord.com/invite/QUUQUP9szv Ed's Socials: https://twitter.com/edzitron https://www.instagram.com/edzitron https://bsky.app/profile/edzitron.com https://www.threads.net/@edzitron Email Me: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  My name is Jessa. One of the things I love the most about working for United Healthcare is that everybody matters. Every moment matters. There's a person behind every problem. I care because it's what I was put on this earth to do.

• 0:48Speaker 03

  I'm Ben and I work at United Healthcare. I am just one piece of a larger puzzle, but every piece matters. It's more than just work. We want to make the healthcare system better for everyone. I care because I want to make a difference. That's what committed to care means to me.

• 1:06Ed Zitron?

  Summon through a portal to the podcast dimension. I am Ed Zitron and this is Better Offline's coverage of the Consumer Electronics Show.

• 1:25Ed Zitron?

  It's Goddamn Wednesday and we're here at the Goddamn Palazzo Hotel in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada, all week with an open bar, tacos, and a comfy place to relax for reporters, covering the largest and, I don't know, most offensive technology show in the world, I'd say. And we're here all week with two episodes today and we've got an all-star cast bringing you the best and, well, mostly the worst from the show floors at the Las Vegas Convention and Venetian Expo Centers. And my first contestants are joining me on nice and damp from the show floor. That was actually in the notes before that, Chloe, I apologize.

• 1:56Speaker 05

  I've just spilled half a can of Liquid Death all over myself.

• 1:59Ed Zitron?

  I poured an entire can over this table yesterday. It like exploded because it froze. Anyway, Mr. Onguoso Jr., Mr. Onguoso Jr., Jesus Christ, I'm keeping going. Thank you for joining me, Tech Bubble Newsletter, of course.

• 2:13Speaker 06

  Thank you, thank you, happy to be here.

• 2:14Ed Zitron?

  I've got star of Is This Thing On? Chloe Radcliffe.

• 2:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:19Ed Zitron?

  Comedian as well. That's right.

• 2:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:21Ed Zitron?

  Intro. And of course, stand up comedian and host of the Factually podcast, Adam Conover.

• 2:24Speaker 07

  Hello. Thank you for having me.

• 2:26Ed Zitron?

  So it sounds like you've all been on the convention floors and based on the little I've heard, it real banger day. Chloe, you got some free stuff?

• 2:34Speaker 05

  I, the very first booth that I walked into was a, a dongle that basically makes you be able to airdrop between Mac and PC things.

• 2:44Ed Zitron?

  Oh.

• 2:44Speaker 05

  And I don't, yeah, su- super useful. And it's like adorable. I truly was magnetized over because I was like, the word dongle is really funny. And I wonder if I can make some jokes out of that. And then I saw it and was like, oh, this actually kind of rocks. And uh, I have, I feel like an asshole saying, I have an assistant, but I have an assistant and she uses a PC laptop, but a Mac phone. And I was like, oh, I think I would like to buy this for her as a gift.

• 3:08Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 05

  And so I was asking about the price and they said, they were like, oh, well, we'd love to send you some free product. Let me send, uh, let me take a photo of your badge, whatever. And truly my eyes like popped out of my skull, went cash dollar signs rolling through my eyes. And I was like, I can get free things.

• 3:26Ed Zitron?

  The con is on.

• 3:27Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so then I started trying to go over and like, like show interest in things that I might want. And most of them did not fall for it.

• 3:38Ed Zitron?

  Just walking up to the 87 inch TV one.

• 3:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:41Ed Zitron?

  Wow, that's so nice. I love that. Walking up just like kicking. Just locking, locking eyes with them. I love this. Give it to me.

• 3:49Speaker 05

  I, my, my badge says digital content creator. That's what you want, right? You want me to create digital content about your $4,000 TV, right?

• 3:57Ed Zitron?

  You like this, you pig.

• 3:59Speaker 05

  But give it to me.

• 4:00Ed Zitron?

  So aside from people not giving you stuff for free, anything interesting?

• 4:05Speaker 05

  Uh, there was. Well, so I really got gummed down. I spent too much time on the accessories.

• 4:13Ed Zitron?

  That's fine. Those were also things.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  They were great. There was one, um, actually a booth that was, had a super useful like travel, uh, a wireless charger that like flips out. It, it looks like a, like a makeup compact.

• 4:28Ed Zitron?

  Right, right.

• 4:29Speaker 05

  And there's a wireless charger for your phone and a wireless charger for your AirPods and a little baby one for your Apple Watch.

• 4:35Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 4:36Speaker 05

  And I don't use those three things, but my boyfriend does. And so I was like, oh, fuck. Christmas presents. This is awesome. Great. I'm just like starting to make Christmas presents list on the CES floor, which actually seems like the best possible use case for CES.

• 4:48Speaker 07

  That, that is what it should be, right? You should walk around and go, oh, stocking stuffers, little googles that'll make Grammy happy.

• 4:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:57Ed Zitron?

  Or like useful electronics.

• 4:58Speaker 07

  Consumer electronics expo.

• 5:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. It is for, it is at a retail level for the consumers, me and my family. And, but then at that same booth where I was, so I was like really awed by this, the little flip open wireless charger. And then a guy, the guy was walking me around and he was showing me the other things that they have, whatever, whatever. Other power blocks and charging.

• 5:20Ed Zitron?

  Right, right.

• 5:21Speaker 05

  And then another guy at that same booth came up. And there's, I, I have a photo of it, but it's probably not worth showing. They, they have a little set of power banks in the back that's like pastel colors. And I didn't look at that and go, oh, power banks for girls. I didn't, that gotta say, that thought never crossed my mind. I just thought a power bank that's pink and light blue and light green, whatever.

• 5:42Ed Zitron?

  Very progressive.

• 5:43Speaker 05

  And it looks kind of like, uh, a makeup bottle. Like it's like one color on, like for two thirds of it. And then it kind of looks like it might have a clear glass top. It's not, it's just a power bank.

• 5:54Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 5:55Speaker 05

  I, again, this is not a thought that I had, but the second guy walks up and he goes, it looks like a foundation. Clearly with the tone of like, you're a lady, you will like that.

• 6:04Ed Zitron?

  Now there's a guy who knows makeup. Yes, it looks like I'm Conchila.

• 6:11Speaker 07

  Like, he worked for the product?

• 6:14Speaker 05

  He worked for the company, for the company, yeah. And I, and I went, oh, yeah, it looks like a foundation. And, and he like doubled down on it. He was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I think you'd like it. It looks like a foundation. And I went, oh, so these are for, these are the power banks for girls. And he went, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're for girls. And I think the first guy who I was talking to understood that I hated what was going on, like that I was having fun and sort of mocking the whole thing. But he couldn't step in and stop it. And the guy who I was mocking fully did not track what was going on.

• 6:45Ed Zitron?

  I love that. I love that they're still, like, it's like 1995 and like, what if computer for woman?

• 6:50Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 6:51Ed Zitron?

  Woman, they're using this thing now, the birds.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  Truly. I, he kept doubling down and tripling down so hard on it that I eventually pointed, we're still standing in front of power banks for girls. And I pointed to one on the end that was black and I went, see, this one, I go, what is that?

• 7:06Ed Zitron?

  No, stop.

• 7:08Speaker 05

  I literally hit my forehead with the palm of my hand. And I pointed to the colors and I went, but this one, I go, that makes me happy.

• 7:16Speaker 05

  And the first guy is like humiliated the whole time. And I was like, I'm sorry, but your coworker is really fucking annoying.

• 7:24Speaker 07

  That's so good.

• 7:25Ed Zitron?

  I love that. I love that they're still doing shit like that.

• 7:28Speaker 05

  It was crazy.

• 7:29Speaker 07

  I mean, it reminds me of when I purchased in, in 2013, a 2010 used Prius. At the Prius, the Prius dealership, and the guy is driving around me and my girlfriend at the time. And she's in the back. I'm the one purchasing the car, but he turns to her and he goes, so Toyota actually polled a thousand women on what they would like in the car. And so there's a place to put your purse, right here, like under the console. And she hated that so much. She talked about that for 10 years.

• 8:02Speaker 07

  To look at her and say, we've, we asked your kind.

• 8:06Ed Zitron?

  We asked one thousand women. And that is it. We, we no more, no need to do, it's just, I, I don't know, I, without, without being too preachy, but it's like, it's 2025 at this point, it's like, pink is for girls, black is for boys.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:21Ed Zitron?

  This will fit in your handbag, which you don't appear to have.

• 8:24Speaker 05

  Also, all of this shit fits in my handbag. It's all very small.

• 8:29Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, it's like, it, like, were the girl ones smaller and thinner? Are they just colors?

• 8:33Speaker 05

  They were, it was just pink and purple and, and.

• 8:36Speaker 07

  See, they gotta go, they gotta go further than that. When they make it like super girly, like I went to the razor booth and they had, this is an old product, but they had the headphones with the cat ears.

• 8:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 07

  That's, I, I feel like that's not so bad because that's like, you know, if you're super, if you're like a fucking e-girl Twitch streamer and you like, you, your whole, your streamer room is Hello Kitty shit.

• 8:56Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 8:57Speaker 07

  You know, it's like an aesthetic.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  I would say that headphones with cat ears is the third gender.

• 9:03Speaker 07

  Fair enough.

• 9:04Speaker 05

  Neither girl nor boy.

• 9:05Speaker 07

  One of the hunters.

• 9:06Speaker 06

  Autistic. I gotta, I, I would love for one of these guys to be like, hey.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  It's like, my headphones don't have ears on.

• 9:14Ed Zitron?

  My headphones are the exact ones I looked and I looked for hours and hours and hours and I tried several of them and I talked to multiple friends and then I found the perfect one. And then they weren't perfect, so I returned them and tried another one and they were perfect. Yeah, that's, that's the fourth gender.

• 9:27Speaker 05

  Just diagnosed.

• 9:29Ed Zitron?

  Just, I'm fresh. I'm fresh. The listeners who have.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  I'm shocked that it took this long.

• 9:33Ed Zitron?

  The listeners who have been trying to diagnose me for two years are like, finally, I'm, I'm, I'm finally edified. Yeah. Oh God. So, okay, talk of that.

• 9:42Speaker 06

  I, I, I just want a vendor to look at me and be like, you know, this thing plays a little rap music.

• 9:50Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, we're directing this at the urban market.

• 9:55Speaker 06

  You know, we, this goes in your sneakers. You like sneakers?

• 10:01Speaker 06

  You went to those? God. Instead, when I roll up, they look me up and down, they see the press card and then they immediately direct their press person over like, uh, they're a bodyguard and enforcer.

• 10:15Speaker 06

  Or if I ask like two questions about how does this work? They're like, oh, um. Oh, yeah, he'll tell you, he'll tell you.

• 10:21Ed Zitron?

  I've got any money.

• 10:22Speaker 06

  They disappear. They disappear. Yeah.

• 10:25Ed Zitron?

  Oh, that's so sad. Again, it's 2025 and this to like, whoa.

• 10:29Speaker 06

  Don't worry.

• 10:29Ed Zitron?

  Okay, one of you guys.

• 10:30Speaker 06

  My goal. This computer has a basketball. Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 06

  You into that? I gotta find, I'm gonna find someone to riff with.

• 10:38Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 06

  That's my goal in this, this convention. Not to find a product I like, but someone who.

• 10:43Ed Zitron?

  Someone who.

• 10:44Speaker 06

  Who won't be a little scared. Yeah.

• 10:45Ed Zitron?

  Or be too scared.

• 10:46Speaker 06

  Or, yeah, actually, we'll get nervous.

• 10:48Ed Zitron?

  Someone who's just like, I, I don't, I don't know.

• 10:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 10:50Ed Zitron?

  I don't know. I've never, uh, I've met tons of people like you.

• 10:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 10:55Ed Zitron?

  But, but wait, what did you see today? What, anything fun?

• 10:58Speaker 06

  I mean, it was nothing interesting. I circled back to. It was nothing interesting. A really funny review of CES.

• 11:05Ed Zitron?

  Another good tagline for the show.

• 11:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Welcome to CES 2016. Nothing interesting. Really interesting. Um, I circled back to a lot of the age tech and kinda AI health companion stuff. Cause I was interested in seeing, okay, maybe if I have a little bit more of a conversation with them and then get them to explain what the agent part means. So it explained the actual use cases, I might find something interesting. But it was just more of the same, uh, you know, I, there was one firm I circled back to, like, I think their name was Alley Q. That is really, uh, really big on, uh, elderly companions.

• 11:42Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 06

  And trying to have something that your grandparents can talk to that may or may not cause like chatbot psychosis if they spend a lot of time talking to.

• 11:52Ed Zitron?

  Right. And is it just a chatbot? Is it like a, a thing on the computer?

• 11:56Speaker 06

  It is just like, uh, big old kinda looking like a orb.

• 12:01Ed Zitron?

  Like a big orb?

• 12:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, like a big orb and some sensors around it and a pad, uh, that you get to talk to and type into.

• 12:09Ed Zitron?

  Grandma loves to commune with the orb.

• 12:13Speaker 06

  Great news, Granny. I got you an orb. Yeah. You like, you like your orb, Granny? Yeah. It told me it was God. Your friend's in the computer, you know.

• 12:22Speaker 06

  I'm never alone now that I have my orb. I'm like, okay, so you have to log in to, to talk to someone essentially. You're going to work, you gotta sit at your desk and be like, hello, how are you doing?

• 12:32Ed Zitron?

  But there's a person at the end or a chatbot?

• 12:33Speaker 06

  It's a chatbot.

• 12:35Ed Zitron?

  That's so sad.

• 12:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, and this chatbot's supposed to be your interface to the outer world.

• 12:38Ed Zitron?

  Is it trained on old people speak? Like what?

• 12:43Speaker 05

  It says the YouTube.

• 12:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:47Ed Zitron?

  Show them. It turns up the TV.

• 12:49Speaker 06

  Cool thing, right?

• 12:49Ed Zitron?

  TV volume to max automatically. It has the same conversation.

• 12:54Speaker 05

  It agrees. It is too cold in here.

• 12:56Speaker 06

  It's also.

• 12:57Ed Zitron?

  I do agree the young people don't work enough.

• 12:59Speaker 06

  So instead of push notifications or, you know, it basically has pusher notifications that are like, let's start a conversation. So you'll be doing your thing and it'll be like, hey, I want to talk to you.

• 13:10Ed Zitron?

  We invented technology to harass your granny.

• 13:12Speaker 06

  No, literally.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  I know so many grandparents who would take that out back and hit it with a slice.

• 13:19Speaker 06

  Can you imagine?

• 13:20Speaker 07

  All they want is not to be bothered.

• 13:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 13:23Ed Zitron?

  I'm, I'm just imagining my, my grandfather passed like 20 years ago, even like way before L L Ms. Just imagining Ken, he was a sign painter in Dorset in Bournemouth. And he tries church, pardon me in England, and he would have just, he would have beat the fuck out of this. Yeah. One minute he would have been like, oh, fuck it. I'm not touching that. I'm not touching that. And for him, but beat it with a stick. He would have loved that, actually.

• 13:44Speaker 05

  They've sent the machines to watch us.

• 13:45Ed Zitron?

  Oh, I don't even think he'd just be like offended by an orb. He has to talk to. So why would he go down the pub?

• 13:52Speaker 07

  Did you guys see the booth for, for Tombot Incorporated?

• 13:55Speaker 05

  I saw it from afar and it looked so terrifying and I didn't stop at it.

• 13:59Speaker 07

  It's like a little dog puppet and it's, the booth is like a living room. And it's got framed photos of the dog puppet and a, and like a, what is a sampler sort of cross stitch thing that says a pet for people who can't have pets.

• 14:14Ed Zitron?

  Okay.

• 14:14Speaker 07

  And then there was like a lady dressed up like a granny and she's holding the puppet. I didn't really see what it does. Presumably it's just like an AI dog puppet. There's also this sad guy just sort of sitting there.

• 14:23Ed Zitron?

  Wait, there was, there was an actual fellow?

• 14:25Speaker 07

  There's like a fellow sitting in there.

• 14:27Ed Zitron?

  Like a real guy?

• 14:28Speaker 07

  Yeah. He looks like he's bummed out. He's just sort of sitting there like zoning, like dissociating, petting the dog and.

• 14:35Ed Zitron?

  Zenied up.

• 14:36Speaker 07

  And like, it could be, it could be useful, but it's also like, it's such a bummer just to be like, this is for. It's very elderly people who've lost their ability.

• 14:48Ed Zitron?

  I'm like fifty fifty on those because I can kind of see like there is it's been proven that that's helpful. I've heard good things. But the same just like you're too you're too old or sick to take care of an animal. It's great. But like seeing a whole booth of that and then the guy they paid to just sit there all day.

• 15:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 15:03Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, it's fifteen bucks an hour. Yeah, you're gonna look depressed.

• 15:06Speaker 07

  You feel bad for the demo.

• 15:08Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 07

  Watching the demo and you're like, oh, it's too bad that this guy has to sit there and pet that fake dog. He doesn't look happy about it. Whereas when people are with a real dog, they're so happy.

• 15:18Ed Zitron?

  That's actually a good point. Surely he would want to be like, hell, yeah, I have a dog.

• 15:21Speaker 07

  Oh, I love my dog.

• 15:22Ed Zitron?

  This dog is so cute. He's like, no, just wait, wait in here until my son calls me in a week.

• 15:26Speaker 07

  I've seen the studies that you're talking about. They're also true of plants. Like when you give old people plants in like the nursing home, they give them they bring like kitties in like it's not it's not a particularly unsolved problem. I look, we do need more technology for old people. I've always thought like the Wii was such a hit for old people. And then there's been no Wii since. I think that's a tragedy of technology that like there's countless senior homes that are still using their Wii from like two thousand and seven to play Wii golf because there's never been anything like that is quite.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  Did we go out of business?

• 15:58Ed Zitron?

  No, Nintendo is still in business.

• 16:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, they still make stuff and they occasionally make a game like that. But the Wii was like this moment where they developed a new way to control a video game and a game that was very simple and resembled games people already knew. And it was like this perfect thing that people had never played a video game, especially elderly people could like figure it out. And then it just sort of wasn't popular enough among the core gaming audience. And they stopped making that type of game.

• 16:25Ed Zitron?

  It was also tough to develop for as well. And it was really expensive. The controllers were weird. And you had to have like a weird bar above your thing. It was just like a lovely idea that just would not scale ever.

• 16:35Speaker 07

  You think you think not? I think maybe it needed a different company to make. I think about this a lot.

• 16:40Ed Zitron?

  They've kind of done it with the Switch with the control with the controls, but it's not the same.

• 16:44Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:44Speaker 05

  But you're saying a company that's not motivated by the youth gaming sector.

• 16:49Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  A company that like doesn't need doesn't need to win the most billions of. Dollars that like could operate at a

• 16:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, I guess literally a company that's like trying to get contracts with with senior homes.

• 17:00Speaker 05

  Yeah. Or something. Alec Q. My favorite. We can pitch them. Or like schools, I feel like at this point, kids want things that feel digital, but don't absolutely melt their brains.

• 17:10Ed Zitron?

  The thing is though, like the I think we're describing the problem of the modern state of capitalism where it's like, oh, a company that doesn't need to grow forever. I'm never going to fund that bullshit. Are you going to make consistent money? Fuck you. I will say I did find a weird one where it was just one of these, one of 900 different companions. It was just these horrible little things wheeling around. Like telly tubbies, but what was interesting was someone had a dog, like a living dog, and he was just going fucking bat shit.

• 17:38Ed Zitron?

  And I was like, this fucking rocks. And then someone went and picked up the dog. If they just had a booth where they had a dog going nuts on these things.

• 17:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, a booth where a dog gets to destroy a robot.

• 17:48Ed Zitron?

  I would pay. I would pay to watch like a large, like even like a small dog would be funny, but like a was Malawat, the one that can climb walls. Like a giant dog just ripping up these things. How much would you, yeah, like a Malamute just fucking up like any of these robots would be sick to me.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  I feel like we need, so there's the Edinburgh Festival, which is in Edinburgh, Scotland. And it's a big performing arts festival. And then there is the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which grew up as a like people who were rejected from the core Edinburgh Festival. And now the fringe has become bigger and it's it's the biggest performing arts festival in the world. And it's the third biggest ticketed event after the Olympics and the World Cup. And it's crazy, whatever. Yeah. I feel like we need a CES fringe that can grow where we can have booths like a dog attacks a robot.

• 18:36Speaker 07

  That's actually a really good idea. Is there like a counter programming, like punk art festival that happens at the same time as CES? That's like freaks.

• 18:46Ed Zitron?

  Better offline fest. That's what we're doing. We're going to start better offline fest where it's like, bring your shit for the dogs we've hired to destroy. And we will of course pay, but we want, we're pro labor. So we will pay guys to sit around looking depressed on everybody.

• 18:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:01Ed Zitron?

  A guy staring out into the distance with Gimme Shelter playing.

• 19:04Speaker 05

  It's gonna be a guy who works for one of the companies that have a booth at the real CES, who then sits and looks sad as we watch, as he watches his stuff get destroyed.

• 19:13Ed Zitron?

  I saw another robot that was just this, it was on like conveyor belts and it had big arms and it was like home, it was like home patrol, elderly care, laundry folding. And I just walked up and like, can I see any of this? And they went, no. I was like, okay, but does it do it? It will. I just stared. Right, but what does it do now? Well, it's there. I'm like, yeah, I got that part. What, and just, this happened a lot. I mean, you were talking about brisket, this fucking AI agent cooking thing.

• 19:41Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 19:42Ed Zitron?

  And it's just like, you look at it and you're like, oh, AI agent. Oh, it can order food? Well, doesn't sound like it can.

• 19:48Speaker 06

  No, they haven't figured that part out yet.

• 19:50Ed Zitron?

  And what is the AI agent part?

• 19:52Speaker 06

  Well, that wasn't clear either because it wasn't working.

• 19:55Ed Zitron?

  Oh, okay.

• 19:55Speaker 06

  It was, it's, it seems like it's just a chatbot that has a, there's a camera inside so it can like take pictures of your food and be like, oh, you like to eat this.

• 20:04Ed Zitron?

  I've seen that five times today.

• 20:06Speaker 06

  No, there are so many.

• 20:07Ed Zitron?

  Hey, one of them food eaters?

• 20:08Speaker 06

  Yeah. You know, you into this?

• 20:10Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 06

  You want this sort of slop? And I, it was fun because at first it was pitched as like, oh, this will like prepare the food and cook it for you. Then as you ask questions, it's like, oh no, it's like, you have to, so you still, you do everything. You still do almost every single part. How would it prepare? Nothing. All it is is just an oven.

• 20:27Ed Zitron?

  It was a pellet smoker, wasn't it?

• 20:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's pretty much it, you know, but they're spinning it as, because they have other products in this one. They're like, oh, we have a grill that's also an AI.

• 20:34Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:35Speaker 06

  Uh, agent grill and we have, uh, you know, any sort, we have a microwave that we'll work on. So all of it is basically like, we just have a sensor inside that gets data on what you like to eat. And then we'll order some of the components and then we will figure out a way to charge you extra for that delivery service.

• 20:50Ed Zitron?

  And it's just a chat GPT wrapper?

• 20:52Speaker 06

  Yes. Yeah. Blue, blue apron plus a, an AI.

• 20:56Ed Zitron?

  Which, which we kind of already have. We have Tavala. We have like 19 different Instagram services that, the Instagram ads that target me a week.

• 21:04Speaker 06

  And it costs probably five times more than the other thing because it also has a giant fucking screen on it.

• 21:08Ed Zitron?

  But also the fun part of pellet grilling is like, you can just go and buy a shit ass like, what, like a pork shoulder and just throw it in with some seasoning. And it's like, you don't need the computer to tell you.

• 21:20Speaker 06

  No, but you need the computer.

• 21:22Ed Zitron?

  Also, what are, who are these people who are like, every day is just confusing to them. I'm just fucking, what do I eat? What do I do? Throw the food in there? Oh God, I don't remember.

• 21:32Speaker 05

  What are the things I like to eat?

• 21:34Ed Zitron?

  I don't have tastes.

• 21:37Speaker 07

  These companies have not thought about, like, even before AI, they're all trying to solve the food problem, like the meal delivery kit companies, and none of it sticks. People do meal delivery kits for like a couple of months and they stop. It's because eating is a solved problem. There's like, there's three kinds of people. There's people who buy frozen shit and heat it up, or they boil hot dogs. There's people who only eat takeout, and there's people who enjoy cooking. Those are the, and, and all of them already have something. The people, the people who hate cooking aren't gonna like cooking because of the expensive shit that you sold them to try to trick them into.

• 22:13Speaker 05

  That doesn't cook for them.

• 22:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, that sort of cooks for them, or does it badly, or sends them shit in the mail. They don't fucking wanna cook at all. They wanna eat McDonald's, or they wanna heat up a factor meal in the microwave.

• 22:25Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, and the thing is, I don't judge anyone who does the meal kit stuff. I did it for, especially when you're trying to lose weight, it's fine. But it's also like, like, I still a lot, like a decent amount of ethics you have to select. And it's like, you're kind of like, you heat them. I did it for a while.

• 22:39Speaker 07

  Did you enjoy throwing out 500 small plastic bags?

• 22:42Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, and also like, if you fall behind on them or travel, you just have a stack of the fuckers, and that's when you cancel. The moment you have a stack, and I've still got some of them somehow. And it's just, I read the, the documentation for the brisk it, that I don't fucking care.

• 22:55Speaker 07

  The brisk it?

• 22:56Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 07

  Yes!

• 23:00Speaker 07

  The brisk it.

• 23:02Ed Zitron?

  If it was called like the brisk IT, I'd kind of laugh, but like, it was just like, but I read it, and it was like, the little fake demo they had on the leaflet that was like, what, I wanna eat this, I wanna limit myself to 1800 calories, and I wanna leave these foods out. It's just like. All right. No one exists in this manner.

• 23:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:21Ed Zitron?

  No one is doing this. No one's gonna use it in this way. No one who is buying a, I assume, thousand plus dollar grill is gonna be like, yeah, okay, a chatbot to finally tell me, if you're discerning enough to like, pick a grill that costs that much money, you probably put more thought into cooking than just, oh, I wanna spend a thousand dollars for a cooker that would just tell me what to do.

• 23:41Speaker 06

  When you ask them where the labor saving thing is, because they insist this will save you time and convenience, they describe a process that is like longer than getting the food itself to, and cooking or meal planning your, on your own, you know? It's like you, you, I'm spending, what, half an hour, you know, getting this thing ready, constantly cycling through it, training it. And then it'll, it'll kind of recommend things for me that I still gotta go out, buy, design the meal around, and prepare. You know, so it's like, what's actual, what's actual point?

• 24:13Speaker 05

  Which seems to be a trend.

• 24:14Speaker 06

  What's actual point?

• 24:15Speaker 05

  Like, in, in an earlier block, we were talking of, or an earlier episode, we were talking about, uh, the chatbot that manages, I think you were talking about this, the chatbot that manages, um, your home, the, the chatbot that's like, you don't wanna pick up your kids from groceries, or from daycare, whatever. But it's like, you still, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it like, looks at your Google Calendar for you and whatever. Except, you still have to look at your screen to read what the chatbot is telling you.

• 24:40Speaker 06

  Right.

• 24:41Speaker 05

  So you could also just look at your screen to look at your Google Calendar. Like, it's not fundamentally, and, and, look, uh, uh, maybe the designers of that chat agent would be like, no, no, this combines the six apps that you have to have open, except, the reason that six apps are open is because I have to make a decision about concretely what happens in my life. Like, do I go to this place or this place first? And the chatbot can't, fundamentally can't make that decision for me. It doesn't have enough information. It can't. All of the information is in my brain.

• 25:12Speaker 06

  Yeah. Uh, I- Which is why you have to offload it into the-

• 25:15Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, and then it can, then it can hallucinate.

• 25:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've, uh, been trying to write jokes about AI for a while, but you know, Chloe, as a comic, when someone has written a joke that's so good that you can't write anything better, and it's like, taking over your brain. Very funny comic named Hayden Johnson, who wrote a tweet that was like, uh, every I, every AI ad is a guy saying, what should I eat? And the AI says, sandwich. And the guy is like, wow.

• 25:42Ed Zitron?

  It's so true, but it really, it's like a sandwich.

• 25:45Speaker 07

  I never thought of that.

• 25:46Ed Zitron?

  Whoa. And that's actually, I think genuinely a Gemini ad. It's like, what am I gonna eat? It's like, have you tried this ham sandwich? It's like, if you act like that, go to a doctor.

• 25:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, you see those Gemini ads where it's like, hey, you know, you're in this book club you signed up for for some reason and you didn't do the reading. What if you faked it and told all your friends that you did? Use us to fake it.

• 26:07Ed Zitron?

  What if you joined a book club where you didn't read?

• 26:09Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's just like, you know.

• 26:11Speaker 05

  Or like, what if you lied to your friends?

• 26:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, what if you lied to them?

• 26:15Ed Zitron?

  deceive your loved ones.

• 26:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, right. We can help with that.

• 26:19Ed Zitron?

  It's very, it's peculiar as well because again, grilling. The whole thing is just throw some burgers on there and you're there, I assume with friends or like you throw in a big brisket and it takes 18 hours and you kind of look at it. It's very analog. Like I have two giant smokers and they are mostly like the best one I have. There's a big stainless steel beast that's basically a temperature measurer, a hopper for pellets and then an auger to send him and set him on fire. It's not a computer. Adding computer to that really wouldn't change much like I.

• 26:50Speaker 05

  Wouldn't change much, but I think the confusing thing to me, I, I want masculinity to be tied to analogness. Okay.

• 26:58Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  And I, right now I think masculinity is tied to computer. And so it is.

• 27:03Ed Zitron?

  Interesting.

• 27:04Speaker 05

  I think in a lot, I think there's a lot of like, dad, you like this grill because it has a computer in it.

• 27:10Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:10Speaker 05

  And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Dad like plain grill, dad like.

• 27:14Speaker 07

  This is changing because that's, that's dad. But you know, there's like the performative male archetype, like TikTok thing. And that's all wired headphones, reading, reading bell hooks in paper form.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  Totally, but I don't think, I think that that is.

• 27:31Speaker 07

  That's complicated because it's a stereotype created by women about men.

• 27:34Speaker 05

  I was also gonna say.

• 27:35Speaker 07

  Not masculine, so it's never mind.

• 27:36Speaker 05

  Adam, with greatest respect, I think that your feed over represents how many performative men are in the world.

• 27:43Speaker 07

  Oh, I think the whole performative male thing is nonsense bullshit as a meme.

• 27:48Ed Zitron?

  I think.

• 27:48Speaker 07

  And I think it's really destructive and doesn't exist. Yeah.

• 27:51Ed Zitron?

  I think masculinity should be tied to personal responsibility and love for your friends and loved ones.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  And that is not computer.

• 27:57Ed Zitron?

  No, and it's not. The computer is, no, I think the computer is innocent. The people who fuck with the computer must be stopped. And this show really is like, I think I saw no less than seventeen different companies that were like, yeah, we generate images. You're a rapper. You're a rapper for ChatGPT. Oh, we generate images and text. So you use ChatGPT or Claude. Yeah, we, um, we connect your disparate documents and we're allowed to summarize them. So ChatGPT. And there were so many of them. There were hallway. I went to Eureka Park, as you can guess, which is the very sad, small box area. Mostly looking for funny names. I'm not gonna lie. I was mostly just looking for names that make me laugh. And it was just so bizarre because what happens when all of this starts getting more expensive because it's all unprofitable?

• 28:41Ed Zitron?

  Just these companies evaporate overnight. And I will say, we're coming towards the end of this block, but nevertheless, I will say, Eureka Park felt, and even the expo, the Venetian one, felt smaller to me. Like previous years, it felt a little more robust and there was a lot more, like they would, the countries, like the careers, like France and all that.

• 29:01Speaker 05

  The Epcot Center.

• 29:01Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah. The Epcot Center was never above ground. You put them in the, in the basement, where the other countries apparently belonged with like the Social Security Administration and the various scams. They were up top. They were topside.

• 29:15Speaker 05

  Not to say that social security is a scam.

• 29:17Ed Zitron?

  No, no, no, but like I had a comma in that one, I promise. But it was just, thank you, Chloe. But it, you, it feels like most of the show is just LLM rappers now. And like, we can laugh at that and goddamn well, we've got an hour and a half to cover. But it's very worrying because before it was like, oh, it's a bunch of Kickstarter shit, Indiegogo shit. At least there was money involved in products. This is like predominantly companies that are using an API. And that's like, ooh, first of all, no differentiation, easily cloned by OpenAI, but also just, where's the fucking business, buddy? Where is it?

• 29:51Speaker 05

  Well, where's the product?

• 29:53Ed Zitron?

  Oh, that, don't worry, it, there isn't one. It's just, other than the ones which are like, yeah, we have a photonic sensor to put on the top of a specific device. I fucking love all of those. The industrial ones where it's like for a specific use case, they're there to meet one of eleven people and they meet all of them. Those are cool. The rest, not so much.

• 30:10Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, the. The, what I wind up wondering as a pure layperson is, is the fa- so, sorry, let me, let me sort of give, give you what I'm hearing.

• 30:24Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 30:25Speaker 05

  It sounds like, and I agree with this from my experience on the floor, it sounds like some very high preponderance of the offerings at CES this year are functionally wrappers around an already developed AI tool.

• 30:37Ed Zitron?

  Yes, exactly.

• 30:38Speaker 05

  They are some interface with ChatGPT.

• 30:40Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 05

  Right. Whether, whatever that interface may be, an orb, a pillow, an app, or whatever. It is, it is, the technology at the core of it is something that somebody else has already made that we are all aware of.

• 30:51Ed Zitron?

  Exactly.

• 30:52Speaker 05

  So in that case, if, if that preponderance is higher this year, is that because uh, there are like fewer problems to solve elsewhere, fewer like consumer problems to solve elsewhere that we've like actually advanced so far in technology that without, without these wrappers for these LLMs, they would be uh, CES would be way smaller? Or is it that everybody has gotten so distracted by LLMs that everybody's gone, well, we can create a new interface for this, a new kind of wrapper for it, and that they've actually like directed their creative energies away from solving a lot of other consumer problems?

• 31:28Ed Zitron?

  It's all of the above. It's, and I realize we're approaching the end of the half an hour, but I'll, I'll wrap this on this. What it is, is that it's that venture capital is pretty much only like 50% of venture capital went into AI this, like last year. It's got this 2026 now. It's also CES usually just is magnetized to whatever trend. There was Metaverse, there was VR. I'm, I'm, two years ago, we had an AI semen thing. None of that this year. No come, no coming.

• 31:51Speaker 05

  I've, I've never met intelligent semen.

• 31:54Ed Zitron?

  Apparently there were a few years ago.

• 31:55Speaker 05

  Organically or artificially?

• 31:57Ed Zitron?

  Okay.

• 32:00Speaker 05

  Men are back. Kill all men. Kill all men. More women on podcasts.

• 32:05Ed Zitron?

  Honestly, female listeners are gonna fucking eat this up. Okay. All right. We're gonna rotate though. We're gonna rotate. Uh, here comes an ad that's specifically only for women.

• 32:16Speaker 05

  It's pink.

• 32:24Speaker 08

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 32:55Ed Zitron?

  All right, everyone, I'm back talking about Quince, one of my favorite clothing brands. And as we speak, I'm currently wearing one of their excellent cotton knit overshirts. They wear like a jacket. Nice prefall piece to wear as things cool off a bit. I've also been eyeballing one of their heritage water-resistant Harrington jackets, too, for later in the year, to pair with their Mongolian cashmere sweaters I bought. And I have several of them, and I really can't recommend Quince's stuff enough. I love Quince because they focus on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials, jackets, pants, fitted tees and polos, activewear, and even travel gear. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands, and because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, you're getting more for less. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince.

• 33:38Ed Zitron?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was on Better Offline. It's the best way to support the show.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Empower is all about helping you invest well, so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 34:27Speaker 09

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 34:41Speaker 10

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 34:52Speaker 09

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 34:58Speaker 11

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 35:03Speaker 09

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 35:29Ed Zitron?

  And we're back in the room. Now, we've, of course, got the wonderful Garrison Davis, if it could happen here. Hello. And we're back with Chloe Radcliffe, actress, of course, in the movie Is This Thing On? Yeah. Stand-up comedian. Yeah. Comedian and host of the Factually podcast, Adam Conover. Hello. And we were just talking about LLM rappers and why everything is LLM this year and AI this year, more so even than last year, and why there are so many things that are just effectively wrapping around the ChatGPT API. And what it is, is yes, CES magnetizes the trends, like it's just, it goes wherever the trends are. We've had our metaverse and VR and AR and like 2015 was very Indiegogo heavy crowds, crowdfunding and such. But I think it's also the funding thing of where venture capital is going.

• 36:11Ed Zitron?

  But also, it's just fucking easier to build a company on top of it. Now, people will frame this as, oh, it's democratizing building companies. No, it's democratizing lazy fucking assholes building nothing. And take that, suckers. No, it really, it really is, though. The suckers being venture capitalists and customers as well, because it's like, yeah, I built a company. No, you fucking didn't. You built something on top of someone else's company and you're claiming it's yours. And by the way, those API rates are going the way. They're too cheap. They don't make sense. But yeah, it's just kind of sad, because usually you go to CES, I'd say 40% of the stuff will be dead in a year. This one is like, if things go the way I'm expecting, all of it.

• 36:54Ed Zitron?

  Like, like, maybe 75% of it, to be fair, but like, every LLM-powered thing.

• 36:59Speaker 05

  You're saying, even the robot dog?

• 37:01Ed Zitron?

  Especially the robot dog, because that has phys-

• 37:04Speaker 05

  No, don't kill my robot dog!

• 37:06Ed Zitron?

  And how many times are we going to talk about killing dogs on this show?

• 37:10Speaker 05

  Every time the glow is on.

• 37:11Speaker 07

  I actually have a whole-

• 37:13Ed Zitron?

  Multiple times we've-

• 37:14Speaker 07

  I have a whole nother product I want to talk about about killing dogs.

• 37:17Ed Zitron?

  Oh, oh, god, fucking-

• 37:20Speaker 07

  It is, it is about dogs.

• 37:21Speaker 05

  He landed the plane perfectly.

• 37:23Speaker 07

  It's about dogs. So I wa- I wandered into a, uh, it was like a consortium of Internet of Things home products or whatever, and the guy recognizes me, he's like, "Oh, Adam, I like your show, great." Um, I'm like, "What do you got in here?" He's like, "Oh, I represent all these different companies." He, he actually said one of the, you know when someone like accidentally says something that sounds really useful here, and he's like, "This thing over here will detect if you left your stove on and turn your stove off automatically." I was like, "Wow, that, that's great." Who didn't invent, why didn't we invent that 50 years ago? That seems very obvious as a product. Then he's like, "Over here, we got the smart dog crate."

• 37:59Ed Zitron?

  Hell, yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 07

  It was a, it's like a big, like, okay, first of all, imagine if your dog crate was like a, like a Twitch streamer's room.

• 38:09Ed Zitron?

  Oh, good, we talked about this briefly, but I want to hear more.

• 38:12Speaker 05

  No, I think this is a different smart dog crate.

• 38:14Ed Zitron?

  Does it measure the height of your dog?

• 38:16Speaker 07

  Uh-

• 38:17Ed Zitron?

  Because that was the one we saw-

• 38:18Speaker 05

  No, I think it's different, because the one that I was looking at, so, so just to catch you up, the short, this is one sentence overview, there is a little crate that measures your dog's breathing rate, your heart rate, and the height distance between the top of the crate and the top of the dog.

• 38:31Ed Zitron?

  In case it's bad.

• 38:32Speaker 05

  And I said, "Why do we need that?" And the guy said, "'Cause if it, if the number doesn't change for a while, maybe the dog has died." And I said, "But wouldn't you know that from the other numbers?"

• 38:44Ed Zitron?

  Or by looking.

• 38:48Speaker 07

  Oh God. The idea of like, the distance from the ceiling to the dog has not changed in three days. Something is wrong.

• 38:56Speaker 05

  Anyway, so no, I think it's a different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, I told my, my boyfriend Stuart last night about, about the, the dog crate that I saw. And he was like, well, you want to avoid the, the terrifying case of your dog shrinking. Or worse, getting bigger.

• 39:13Speaker 07

  It's like, my dog is, is not in a perpetual state. It's like, my dog varies at times. But wait, so Adam, you found another one. Another one, a Twitch stream of crate. A different one, yes. It had, um, among other things, it had an iPad in the dog crate. So you could show your dog videos. Dog TV. And video chat with your dog. It had like a privacy screen that would open and close like glass that you could remotely open and close.

• 39:37Speaker 05

  And because your dog wants to try on new outfits.

• 39:42Speaker 07

  Your dog wants to pretend it's in a limo. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Or like if you were, you know, had your dog in some sort of like prison visitation situation.

• 39:51Speaker 05

  It was like. If you don't want strangers to see your dog's dick.

• 39:54Speaker 07

  This is a thing I vaguely knew already existed. When does that happen?

• 39:58Speaker 05

  I, I want my dog to be modest, Ed.

• 40:01Speaker 07

  They said it was, you know, he was like, some people put a blanket over the crate, but now you don't have to do that. And again, it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, what was the problem with the blanket over the crate?

• 40:10Speaker 05

  And also the blanket over the crate is to make the dog think, is to make the dog go to sleep.

• 40:14Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 05

  It's to say it's nighttime now, not, uh.

• 40:18Speaker 07

  I need some privacy.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, not sir.

• 40:20Speaker 07

  Privacy screen and it was cool. Like I was aware this already existed, like a pane of glass that if you like run a current through it, it suddenly turns opaque or something. Right. And, and that was cool to see go, even though I knew it already existed. But, but then a big part of it was like, if you are at home and your smoke alarms go off and your house is on fire, you can open the door of the crate automatically. So the dog can run away from the fire. Or if you're on your way home and you want to let the dog out a little early. And the thing in my mind is I'm like, who's, who's crating their dog this much? Like use it when your dog's a puppy, maybe.

• 40:56Ed Zitron?

  You're trading a dog to stay in the crate and be happy in it. And the whole point is that it can't leave. Like you kind of like train it to like the crate, like, why would you let, I guess if you let it out early, I don't know.

• 41:08Speaker 05

  The whole point of a dog is that it knows routine.

• 41:11Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Speaker 05

  As everybody knows, the point of a dog.

• 41:13Ed Zitron?

  The point of a dog is. The point of a dog is maximal efficiency.

• 41:17Speaker 05

  Is optimize your dog.

• 41:19Ed Zitron?

  Optimize your dog.

• 41:20Speaker 05

  But if you let the dog out, if you open the dog crate early and the dog has no way of predicting when you're gonna open the crate remotely.

• 41:29Ed Zitron?

  And you were not there.

• 41:30Speaker 05

  And you're not there. Like, I feel like if you have a dog crated while you're gone, because I do know people who are like.

• 41:35Ed Zitron?

  There are tons of people who do, yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, and do, you know, it's whatever, whatever. Judgment decide about whether you should have your dog in the crate that much or not. Totally setting that aside, just dealing with the reality of there are people who do. If you drive home and the dog hears the garage door opening, or the dog hears the front door opening or whatever, then the dog gets to be excited because the crate is about to open. But if you're just randomly opening it, it's like, do you know those, do you know that experiment with rats where they like shocked them, where they play, they play the buzzer?

• 42:04Ed Zitron?

  That's a, was that the one where they shocked the dog?

• 42:06Speaker 05

  I think, I know they had one with rats that I'm thinking of, where it was, where they like play a beep and then shock the rat.

• 42:13Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 05

  And those rats survived like two or three times longer than where they, where they just randomly shocked without the beep. Because the rats who didn't have the beep were so anxious the entire time, were so stressed because they didn't know when the shock was coming. Whereas when they knew, it's, it's right after the beep, they could like prepare for it for the second between the beep and the shock. And I feel like that's what you're doing to your dog if the dog's just like, this door could open at any moment.

• 42:38Ed Zitron?

  Could a person, could a person fit in this thing?

• 42:42Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 42:43Ed Zitron?

  Well, no, we're talking about the cat ear things, you've got an iPad in you, it's like a Twitch streamer, I've got a few furry listeners. Yeah, I definitely know people that like that. I'm like, the Yiff, the Yiffmaxers who listen.

• 42:54Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 42:54Ed Zitron?

  There's gotta be one person who emails saying they love that and another that threatens to kill me, it's gonna be great.

• 43:00Speaker 07

  It was kinda charming, it wasn't, to your point Chloe, I think if you were a dog and you're like in the crate all day. And then suddenly the door just like silently swings open.

• 43:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 07

  I'd be like, oh, humanity is gone, they've died. And I've been released from my, I'm in like a 28 Days Later situation.

• 43:16Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 07

  Like, it's the beginning of the movie.

• 43:18Speaker 05

  I'm gonna have to eat my owner.

• 43:21Ed Zitron?

  You just come back, the dog fucking kills you. It's too ominous. All right, Gare, what have you seen today?

• 43:27Speaker 12

  Today I've been to, once again, more panels. I went to the Panasonic booth once. Actually, I would, I would prefer to go over your favorite part of CES.

• 43:35Ed Zitron?

  What do you mean?

• 43:36Speaker 12

  Which is Showstoppers.

• 43:37Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, Showstoppers, who have made war with me.

• 43:40Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 43:40Ed Zitron?

  Because I work at a PR firm, they have decided I cannot go. Very unfair, very nasty. So if you ever go to Showstoppers, my, my request is you eat a lot of horrible food. I want you to upper deck every toilet in that place and we turn this into Mos Eisley Cantina.

• 43:56Speaker 12

  I got it.

• 43:57Speaker 07

  I like when that accent comes out. What is that specifically with the consonants? Like what do you call it?

• 44:02Ed Zitron?

  Mos Eisley Cantina.

• 44:03Speaker 07

  Mos, mo, yeah.

• 44:04Ed Zitron?

  It was like, it's West London.

• 44:06Speaker 07

  It's West London.

• 44:07Ed Zitron?

  West London. Yeah, it goes between like my posh accent and the West London.

• 44:10Speaker 07

  And it's all in the consonants, like they're tight.

• 44:12Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, there's something wrong with me. But yeah, tell me about the, tell me about Showstoppers.

• 44:18Speaker 12

  It, it was the worst Showstoppers I've been to in a few years, which I'm honest, I'm saddened to say. Like I, I, I usually kind of look forward to Showstoppers.

• 44:25Speaker 05

  And could I request a one to two sentence overview of what Showstoppers is?

• 44:28Speaker 12

  Showstoppers is a media event for journalists where a bunch of products, usually from like Eureka Park, usually like the CES, like innovation type products, have booths in a ballroom in the Bellagio and there's food and drinks and then journalists will walk through and you can talk to, you know, people from these companies. It's, it's, it's like another condensed version of like the show, all in like one room. And it's like every Tuesday night in CES.

• 44:56Speaker 05

  And is there, uh, uh, who gets to be there?

• 45:00Speaker 12

  Journalists.

• 45:01Speaker 05

  Not, not that, no, no, no, not who gets to look.

• 45:02Ed Zitron?

  You have to pay.

• 45:03Speaker 05

  Who gets to show.

• 45:04Ed Zitron?

  Like exhibitors.

• 45:05Speaker 05

  Who gets to stop the show? But I guess what I'm saying is like, can you just pay enough and be one of those exhibitors? Like is it just, it's, it's not like, nobody's picked these products as like, we think these are actually the best.

• 45:16Ed Zitron?

  There's a degree of that in that something that's outright fraudulent, they would probably say no to, but probably not.

• 45:22Speaker 12

  Yeah, because there's, there's not much space. And so they, they kind of defer to, to people who want like the CES Innovation Awards. Every year. So you, you got, there was like a few of those booths.

• 45:32Ed Zitron?

  But what was, what was mid about it? What was not?

• 45:34Speaker 12

  It was, they changed venues. Was in a much smaller ballroom than

• 45:38Ed Zitron?

  Oh, that's actually a terrible

• 45:39Speaker 12

  Than the past few years. Yeah. And I would say about forty to percent of the show floor was what, once again, your favorite product, smart glasses.

• 45:49Ed Zitron?

  Woo.

• 45:50Speaker 12

  So many smart glasses booths.

• 45:52Ed Zitron?

  Um, interesting.

• 45:53Speaker 12

  There was like three, three like regular smart glasses, all, all like back ended via L L Ms, like, uh, the, the auto translation glasses I tried on.

• 46:03Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 46:03Speaker 12

  What, one was a sound translation where they like have speakers in the arm that they were running that translation through Microsoft's AI. They had another like a backup translation that you could run through chat GPTs. Um, I did a

• 46:17Ed Zitron?

  That's funny because Microsoft is powered by GPT.

• 46:21Speaker 12

  This is, this is, this is just what the guy said.

• 46:24Ed Zitron?

  I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just like, that's just like classic CES brain. It's just like, well, it runs through chat GPT or chat GPT with a different handle.

• 46:32Speaker 12

  The other, the other ones, which were like the visual, visual, visual translations as well as like navigation, like they hook up to like Google Maps so they can do, do that sort of thing. Um, if you're like biking, but the, the, the big ones were the Rokey glasses, the, the crowdfunded AI smart glasses.

• 46:51Ed Zitron?

  Did they work?

• 46:52Speaker 12

  They worked better than the sound ones. The, the, the sound only ones worked, but with a pretty significant delay.

• 46:58Ed Zitron?

  How, how long about?

• 47:00Speaker 12

  Ten, ten seconds.

• 47:02Ed Zitron?

  Jesus Christ.

• 47:03Speaker 12

  You can't have a conversation with them. They were prettier. They were, they, they, they, they look like normal glasses. The Rokey glasses are a little bit more obvious that they're smart glasses. But the translation's faster. It's obviously, it's hard to have eye contact with someone in a conversation when you're trying

• 47:16Ed Zitron?

  Text in front of them.

• 47:17Speaker 12

  The kind of like blurry, like hologram text. Um, but as long as you can focus your eyes and multitask, it's like, okay. Um, that, that, that one runs through chat GPT. I, there was a, two different, like in ear, like earbuds, which listen to and transcribe conversation also runs through chat GPT. The worst part about those though, is that they, they were, they worked really well and you, you could like whisper, then that, that was the main feature.

• 47:43Ed Zitron?

  That's actually

• 47:43Speaker 12

  That was the main feature. It was like auto, auto dictation. If you like whisper, even like a loud.

• 47:49Ed Zitron?

  And it worked?

• 47:49Speaker 12

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:50Ed Zitron?

  That's kinda cool.

• 47:50Speaker 12

  So even even in like a loud showroom, the the person who had it on could like whisper something. Uh, I I could not hear it standing like two feet away, but it was like it was perfectly transcribed and I could like match via like. Via like a reading lips and it was good, but.

• 48:04Speaker 05

  And is this, sorry, hold on, this is a a translation through language and transcription?

• 48:10Speaker 12

  It does both.

• 48:10Ed Zitron?

  And this is, these were earbuds?

• 48:12Speaker 12

  These were basically basically like, like, yeah, like, like a AirPod style.

• 48:16Ed Zitron?

  Cool.

• 48:16Speaker 05

  But the the dictation feature is a subscription model. You have to pay to keep using it.

• 48:23Ed Zitron?

  And it's powered by GPT and all that.

• 48:25Speaker 12

  And it's also powered by GPT. Uh, so there's a few things like that. Uh, there was smart like swim goggles. There was smart like ski goggles, bike goggles.

• 48:33Ed Zitron?

  One question, just with the previous one, sorry. So you need a subscription, but do you need an internet connection as well?

• 48:40Speaker 12

  Oh, I didn't ask that. That's that's.

• 48:42Ed Zitron?

  Cause I assume it must connect to your phone or something, which is just like, because.

• 48:45Speaker 12

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:46Ed Zitron?

  Cause like ostensibly, if you're.

• 48:48Speaker 12

  The dictation needs the phone because you see the dictation like getting updated on your phone.

• 48:52Ed Zitron?

  That's not too bad.

• 48:52Speaker 12

  They're gonna, it's it's gonna be synced to your mobile device.

• 48:54Ed Zitron?

  But you'd want that anyway. That one's not so bad. But the translation ones, it's like, if you're in a foreign country, you can't necessarily rely like.

• 49:01Speaker 05

  Guarantee you'll have data.

• 49:02Ed Zitron?

  The situations you need translation will probably not be in a major metropolitan area because. Depending on the country, and if it's a country where it's a major metropolitan area and it doesn't have English translation, the cell service might not be good. You're not might may not. It's just.

• 49:16Speaker 05

  Also, the idea of walking up to a person who doesn't speak English, who speaks like literally so much zero, so zero of English that you can't.

• 49:25Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, you can't converse with them.

• 49:26Speaker 05

  Muddle through.

• 49:27Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 05

  And being like, hold on, let me put in my thousand dollar machine into my head that is going to make me be able to talk to.

• 49:36Speaker 12

  I mean, a lot of the glasses, at least, it's for like putting on so you can hear people like around you, right?

• 49:42Ed Zitron?

  Which isn't too bad.

• 49:42Speaker 12

  It's not necessarily not necessarily even for conversation, but like at least, at least you can like, you can hear someone speaking in a foreign language.

• 49:47Speaker 05

  You can eavesdrop so that these people who are specifically, who have switched to a foreign language specifically so that you won't understand what they're saying.

• 49:54Ed Zitron?

  This is what my did to, no, it was really funny when I was. Kid, my parents used to speak in French in front of my brother and I to try and avoid us hearing. We didn't tell them for fucking years. We could understand.

• 50:04Speaker 05

  Then you.

• 50:04Ed Zitron?

  We could completely understand.

• 50:06Speaker 05

  What they're doing is teaching you French.

• 50:08Ed Zitron?

  I know, I know. We were just listening to work out why they were like, like, how long were we going to stay places? Or if there was something we were going to do, we didn't want to do. And then eventually I think one of us like laughed at something they said. It was like, oh shit. God damn it. Years of the scam. But okay.

• 50:23Speaker 12

  It's it's kind of useful if you are someone who only speaks English. Talking is talking to someone who's speaking another language, but can like, understand English, but maybe can't like speak it very well.

• 50:33Speaker 05

  I do actually think the translation.

• 50:34Speaker 12

  That's like the main use case.

• 50:36Speaker 07

  There's stuff like this has been normalized a little bit too. Like I've gone to plenty of hotels where there's someone from mainland China trying to check into the hotel. And they're using the translation thing.

• 50:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 07

  And it's like, and then they show the phone.

• 50:47Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 50:47Speaker 07

  And like, that'll get more refined. And I, I don't know. It seems to me like translation is one of the few things that like.

• 50:53Speaker 05

  I was about to say this.

• 50:55Speaker 07

  Really good for like, it is an improvement.

• 50:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 50:57Speaker 12

  We're working our way there.

• 50:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, totally. And like, it is, it is a positive use case. It is a like, non harmful, at least broadly non harmful use case. I more was imagining the setting, the like, when you're in the, you know, the rural Uzbek mountains and you're trying to communicate with like. I was trying to imagine the, the setting where you have no wifi, but you're like trying to use these earbuds, which just feels like a, you know, a set piece in a movie.

• 51:23Speaker 12

  So like, although some of these things kind of like works to some degree, the audio ones a little bit slower. Like, these are all stuff I've tried on at CES before. Like I've.

• 51:31Ed Zitron?

  I was gonna say, I feel like we had this conversation last year.

• 51:33Speaker 12

  We've had this exact, exact conversation before. Like the, these are not new. And this was, this was like 40 to 50% of the show floor at showstoppers was just these, was like this genre of product.

• 51:44Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 51:44Speaker 12

  The, the only new thing is they, they put like these smart glasses technology and like ski goggles, like swim goggles, scuba goggles. So you can have like a, you know, heads up view if you're wearing a scuba goggles. And like, that's like, new ish, I guess.

• 51:58Speaker 07

  I feel like.

• 51:58Speaker 05

  Why do you want headset view?

• 52:00Speaker 12

  I don't know. Maybe, maybe you need to play an app with gesture controls as you're swimming.

• 52:06Speaker 07

  Cause you saw the Terminator 40 years ago and you're like, it would be cool to see text on my eyes.

• 52:12Speaker 12

  As, as pretty as it is to scuba dive, you could also be watching Instagram reels at the same time. So.

• 52:18Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, like brain, brain rot as you're looking at beautiful tropical fish.

• 52:22Speaker 07

  Jesus Christ.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  You're like, hey, do you like to swim laps because it's the one place that you cannot bring your phone?

• 52:28Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 05

  We got the solution for you.

• 52:30Speaker 07

  The whole thing about the phone is that you can look away from it. Yes. Like, like, to me, the main, the main reason VR didn't catch on is, is because, like, when I would play a VR game, I would, you know, sometimes I would enjoy them. But after like 20 minutes, I'd be like, what if my house is on fire? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What if, what if somebody needs me? And then I take the thing off and then it's such a big face change. You don't want to go back into it. And just the ability to glance away from stuff is so important. And I just feel like, I don't know, heads up display, I don't want for that reason. And it fits into the thing of, I've really been struck by how many people I've been walking. If you look at the way people are using their phones at this thing, everybody is on their phones all the time. They're just, they're in like hunched over phone position, you know, like, like elbows on knees, looking at the phone.

• 53:15Speaker 07

  And I'm like, I don't see any of these companies unseating Apple and Android. Like it's, we have the, here, this is where the AI is happening. This is where all the, we've, we've done it.

• 53:25Ed Zitron?

  It isn't even happening there.

• 53:27Speaker 05

  You can do, like, I was just in Japan and you can do translation on your phone. You can type, you could type the thing in, you could show it to someone, they can type it back and that's going to be faster and more efficient.

• 53:35Ed Zitron?

  I went to Japan in 2017 and I literally just used Google Translate.

• 53:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:40Ed Zitron?

  And I feel like it would be way more offensive to this man who did not speak a lick of it and went to Iraq and it was amazing. And like, it was way less offensive to be like, oh, I don't understand you. I'm going to use this and being very honest to be like, one second. Beep beep. Now speak.

• 53:54Speaker 05

  That's, yeah, that's what I mean.

• 53:56Ed Zitron?

  You imbecile who cannot converse with me versus being like, yeah, we're both from different countries.

• 54:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 54:01Ed Zitron?

  Like, how magical?

• 54:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 54:02Ed Zitron?

  There is a barrier and technology has solved this barrier without removing the honesty of conversation versus I have paid someone $525 a month so that you and I can pretend we understand each other because we don't.

• 54:15Speaker 05

  And, and I do, I really do think that like at the, at the broadest levels, I do think that the translation use case makes, makes more sense than almost any other to me. And you know why it makes that sense? Because it's written in English. But Adam, what you were saying earlier, I couldn't miss it. Anyway, but the burden of being a comedian, you have to take the low hanging fruit. But Adam, what you were saying earlier, just a second ago about like, we've already, like the winners are here, the winners are the iPhone and Android phones.

• 54:42Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 54:42Speaker 05

  Sort of goes back to what I was asking in the earlier block about which about why are the rappers so prevalent? And is it because, and I'm hearing you that that a huge part of it is that we're following the trend, but also like, is it that there is some degree of the biggest consumer tech gaps have been closed right now? Or like the biggest consumer gaps that we can imagine right now. I'm sure in 10 years, there will be, they will be, will be in a totally

• 55:12Speaker 07

  I mean, the iPhone was like 90% of all technological advancements.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  That's yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 07

  That was possible when it was invented.

• 55:20Speaker 05

  That's what I mean.

• 55:21Speaker 07

  Like it sort of picked, it was all the low hanging fruit all at once. It's been refined over 20 years.

• 55:25Ed Zitron?

  And they planned for it. Like there was a famous Goldman Sachs analyst called Jim Cavelllo, who said like, the iPhone, they knew it was going to happen like a decade beforehand. They just needed Bluetooth to be smaller. They needed GPS to be smaller and modems and such.

• 55:37Speaker 07

  And like, Apple has made the same thing in a dozen other form factors, and they're all less popular than the iPhone. They're just like less the iPad, less the Apple Watch, less the iPhone is like the main thing. Um.

• 55:49Speaker 12

  Well, obviously the Vision Pro, which is the most successful version.

• 55:52Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, that that's the popular product everyone loved. I think, I think there's another level of it as well, which is it's follower culture because it's when a big company goes, we're going to try this. And I think the Meta glasses, because a lot of credulous journalists went, wow, I could use this to video myself cooking. I could use this while walking around. I did a content video as a content creator. This is now a thing. And because that happened, everyone goes, I bet those fucking dumb fuck VCs will buy anything. No one.

• 56:24Speaker 05

  And they will.

• 56:25Ed Zitron?

  And I don't, yeah, but VCs will, but have we seen any proof that consumers will?

• 56:30Speaker 05

  No, no, no, no, but.

• 56:31Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, VCs will. But it's like, oh yeah, we can clone the very popular Meta Ray Bans. You mean the horrendously unpopular one? Sorry, the unprofitable, but also not super profitable? Like Metas?

• 56:43Speaker 07

  I've never, I've never seen them in the real world. I've never seen anybody using them.

• 56:46Ed Zitron?

  I've literally seen them once.

• 56:48Speaker 12

  I've seen one person using them.

• 56:49Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 12

  Don Lemon.

• 56:51Ed Zitron?

  Don Lemon?

• 56:51Speaker 05

  Is that real?

• 56:53Speaker 12

  This is, this is real. This is real.

• 56:56Speaker 05

  You could not have said a funnier name.

• 57:00Speaker 07

  And that man was Don Lemon. You could tell me a story about anybody doing anything and at the end say it was Don Lemon.

• 57:09Ed Zitron?

  That's very, that's very good.

• 57:12Speaker 12

  He's shorter than what you would think. No. He seems so tall. He's like maybe five, seven at most.

• 57:17Ed Zitron?

  Ooh, baby, that's not good.

• 57:19Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 57:19Ed Zitron?

  That's a shorter man than I expected. For a man that stood up to Elon Musk, kind of.

• 57:24Speaker 07

  I went to the, uh, Razer booth, which I know we talked about yesterday. Um, but, uh, I did have a good time there and I actually kind of left going like they're doing it in an honest way. Because, you know, I walk in and most of the stuff, look, they're a second tier hardware company that makes accessories for gaming. Right. And they make good ones. I have a Razer mouse. They had some keyboards. They went clicky, clicky, clicky.

• 57:47Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, nice.

• 57:47Speaker 07

  It was very nice. And then they had like a, uh, their, their L L M wrapper was a pair of gamer headphones.

• 57:53Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 57:54Speaker 07

  With cameras and they're like, this is better than glasses because it's like a little bigger and no one can hear you. And then they did the same demo as where like literally they had a plastic cutting board full of plastic food. And the girl goes, what can I make with this? And the L L M is like spaghetti. And she's like, wow, thanks. Like it's literally spaghetti and.

• 58:13Ed Zitron?

  Did you see the wife tube though?

• 58:15Speaker 07

  Uh, I did. I did see the wife tube, but just to, to finish first. Uh, then they're like, look, it can connect to Claude or Opus or any of them. And I'm like, okay, great. So Razer has gone, I know who gives a fuck, but Razer has gone, we're a hardware company. We make hardware. This is a thing that people are maybe using. Here's a hardware interface for it. That's like pretty good.

• 58:36Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 58:36Speaker 07

  And like, fine. And they, they called it Project Makoto, which is a little bit over the top.

• 58:41Ed Zitron?

  Okay.

• 58:42Speaker 07

  But like, it's functionally a gamer, a gamer headset, right? It's like, not that bad. Now the little tube I thought was funny.

• 58:49Ed Zitron?

  And this is the holographic tube with the waifu in it.

• 58:52Speaker 07

  It's a little hologra- have you seen this, Claude?

• 58:54Speaker 12

  No.

• 58:54Speaker 07

  You should probably go check this. I think you would enjoy it. I would like to see you interact with it. It's a little, so like a little on your desk, a little tube and inside the tube's a little anime girl. And, uh, you can talk to it and it's just like talking to chat G P T. Um, but you can say like, hey, hey, uh, kid out my gun in Battlefield four. And then she goes, okay, I added a scope to it.

• 59:14Ed Zitron?

  But did that work? This is what the wife tube looks like, by the way.

• 59:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's but it's a little avatar.

• 59:20Speaker 05

  Wife in a tube.

• 59:21Ed Zitron?

  Wife tube.

• 59:21Speaker 07

  It can see you and the guy goes, hey, what do you think of Adam's outfit? Because by the way, everybody at in the razor booth, that was the most recognized I was all

• 59:31Speaker 05

  That's funny.

• 59:31Speaker 07

  Weekend because they're all internet nerds.

• 59:33Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 07

  So they're like, I saw you on you. They kept coming going up and saying, hi, Adam. I was like, are you fucking AI?

• 59:40Speaker 07

  Like, stop it.

• 59:41Ed Zitron?

  They pause 10 seconds every time he talks to them.

• 59:44Speaker 07

  But so the guy goes, he reveals that he knew who I was because he goes, what do you think of Adam's outfit? And it sort of goes like, wow, CES badge on fleek, looking super professional and like a boss. And

• 59:57Ed Zitron?

  Jesus Christ.

• 59:58Speaker 07

  You know, yep, I guess there's some gamers who might need compliments, like a little compliment tube.

• 1:00:05Speaker 05

  But it's

• 1:00:06Speaker 07

  It was dumb, but also

• 1:00:08Ed Zitron?

  A compliment tube, huh?

• 1:00:09Speaker 07

  It was a little toy. I felt like they weren't even taking it that seriously. They're kind of shrugging, going like, yeah, you know.

• 1:00:15Speaker 05

  This is the bullshit we gotta do this year?

• 1:00:17Speaker 07

  Yeah. It's we're razor. Hey, you want a mouse or you want a little anime girl tube?

• 1:00:22Ed Zitron?

  You want something useful or do you want whatever the fuck this pervert tube is?

• 1:00:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, at least

• 1:00:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, but they make LED fucking, you know, desktop towers. Nobody needs any of that shit.

• 1:00:32Speaker 05

  Doesn't have like delusions of grandeur.

• 1:00:33Ed Zitron?

  Love it. Love it.

• 1:00:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Ed Zitron?

  But like, I don't know, just like, if you buy the waifu tube, they should fucking put you on the list. I'm sorry. Like, if you're like, I desire a tube where a, where to quote Robert from yesterday, where like Krieger's hentai wife from Archer resides. You should, you should not be allowed to, like, you should have to introduce yourself to your neighbors. Like, it's just, it's just a very worrying product. And also, who the fuck for? Like, who is, because it's not good enough to give you actual, like, CES badge on fleek. Wow. Fuck off. Just, I

• 1:01:07Speaker 05

  Well, that's the thing is that like, that's one of the things is, sure, are there a lot of gamers who could use some compliments? Without a doubt, absolutely. But like,

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  It sort of feels insulting to their intelligence. It feels insulting. I think the way AI talks, the the kind of sycophantic chatter.

• 1:01:27Ed Zitron?

  You got this. Yeah.

• 1:01:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, feels feels like insulting to anybody's intelligence. And it's it's sort of shocking to me that we just go, yeah, that's how it should talk. And that's fine. And we accept that. And aren't like, that's humiliating and stupid.

• 1:01:43Speaker 07

  But it fits in. It fits into me in the gamer context, actually, because something that so many games do that I find annoying, but clearly people must like, is like, thank you so much. You saved the whole village. You're the strongest hero we've ever met. Like, games will compliment you for doing basic things.

• 1:02:00Ed Zitron?

  I don't even think games do that.

• 1:02:02Speaker 05

  I mean, you saved the whole village, Adam. That's more than just a basic thing.

• 1:02:06Ed Zitron?

  But you also, you see that in like a text box, then it goes away and you've forgotten it happened. And I'm hammering X. I'm I'm like, I'm just like full autistic, like, I need to get the next fucking bit. Fuck you. I don't care about the story. And it's just, most gamers I talk to would be very annoyed to have any interruption. And just having this demented hentai thing in the corner being like.

• 1:02:28Ed Zitron?

  Your badge is on flake.

• 1:02:30Speaker 05

  And not to be.

• 1:02:30Ed Zitron?

  You need to wash.

• 1:02:32Speaker 05

  Did you say you need to wash?

• 1:02:35Speaker 05

  Now, look.

• 1:02:36Speaker 07

  Now, that has utility.

• 1:02:37Speaker 05

  If it was mean. If it's a wash tube, then just reminds gamers to shower. I actually, this is a use case for AI that I could bet.

• 1:02:46Ed Zitron?

  Oh, no, we're we're gonna get some emails saying, I'm a gamer and I wash.

• 1:02:49Speaker 05

  But the.

• 1:02:50Ed Zitron?

  And Nate, by the way, if you email me that, I'm asking how often.

• 1:02:54Speaker 07

  It is funny that, like, you know, it maybe it's the computer from Star Trek, right? Where they would go, computer, do this or that, and it would answer. But the computer didn't go, what a great idea, Captain. That's sure decisive and a great, uh, it shows leadership on your part.

• 1:03:08Ed Zitron?

  I think that actually is it, though. It's trying to cover.

• 1:03:10Speaker 05

  And think of how much better Captain would have felt about himself if the computer had said that.

• 1:03:13Ed Zitron?

  Captain Picard had self-respect. But here's the thing, they're doing that.

• 1:03:17Speaker 05

  And gamers?

• 1:03:18Ed Zitron?

  They're doing that because you can't just be like, do something. You can't be like, do this, because it can't do anything.

• 1:03:22Speaker 05

  That's true, yeah.

• 1:03:23Ed Zitron?

  You can't be like, oh, you, the battlefield example, it actually can't do that because it would require it to interact with the game, which it definitely can't do. So it's like, yeah, they add all the sycophancy, because you can't actually be like, can you do this for me? Can you find this? Because there'll be a five to 10 second pause and it'll go. Olympia is the capital of Washington. It's like, I needed the fucking time, man.

• 1:03:42Speaker 07

  It said that it did it. The guy said, kid out my gun and it said a bunch of stuff about the gun. I didn't know the game enough, well enough to tell if it did. But I asked the dude, I was like, do you think that gamers want this? Like a game assistant, because to me, a video game is like the, the, the paragon thing that you would want to do yourself.

• 1:03:59Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 1:04:00Speaker 07

  And I asked him this, he was like, well, yes, but sometimes people, people want to get better at a game, like League of Legends or a game like that has a high skill ceiling. And so maybe it can give you tips and I was like, okay, like a coach. And he's like, yeah. And I was like, all right, maybe that's a use case. It's like a training, a training AI that's gonna give you, because people do hire like, like video game, like coaches. That is a market.

• 1:04:24Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, but if you're good at a game.

• 1:04:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:04:27Ed Zitron?

  Not like a regurgitation of how many game FAQ pages. I'm not even being sarcastic. I'm not even being sarcastic. Like people, I've had many people help me with games, but people. And the whole point is they watch you and go, that was wrong, that was wrong. No, do this. Like you're doing this. I see you regularly making this action. I don't think you could recognize that through a camera.

• 1:04:47Speaker 12

  I guess it could maybe be used for like, for like walkthrough guides. If you're like stuck at a part, you don't know how to continue. You can ask and it'll like regurgitate some IGN article about how to get past the like fourth dungeon.

• 1:04:57Speaker 07

  I mean PlayStation already has that built in.

• 1:04:59Speaker 12

  Do they? Really?

• 1:05:00Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, with Astro Bot, they really brought it in as well.

• 1:05:02Speaker 07

  Yeah, they have, they have a feature, the, the developers have to like build it in. But like Astro Bot has this all done, because that's like a super first party game. It, uh, like you hit the PlayStation button and it has like game hints. So literally, you know, if you're on a level and you're like, where's the fucking third puzzle piece? And it, it'll like show you a little video or give you a hint. But that's like, basically they just put the game fact in the game.

• 1:05:26Ed Zitron?

  Um, it's. I used to write video game guides and the problem is, is the, the things that people get stuck on can be so deep. Because it's why they have like yellow things on ladders that you have to climb now. Because something that seems really obvious to one million out of one, sorry, 1.9 million out of 2 million people is really just not obvious to like a thousand people and all of those people post online. And they are just like, what the fuck do I do here? And then you get the people who are mad that it's too obvious, but it's like. It's yet another thing where it's like a solution in search of a problem. And it's just kind of sad. And I hate to do this really abrupt thing, but we're at 30 minutes. And the next thing will solve either all of your problems or cause you more. Your choice, but you really have to give them your money, whatever it is.

• 1:06:10Ed Zitron?

  And if it's a podcast, you have to listen and trust them wholeheartedly.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:06:49Ed Zitron?

  All right, everyone, I'm back talking about Quince, one of my favorite clothing brands. And as we speak, I'm currently wearing one of their excellent cotton knit overshirts. I wear like a jacket, nice pre fall piece to wear as things cool off a bit. I've also been eyeballing one of their heritage water resistant Harrington jackets too, for later in the year to pair with their Mongolian cashmere sweaters I bought. And I have several of them and I really can't recommend Quince's stuff enough. I love Quince because they focus on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials, jackets, pants, fitted tees and polos, activewear and even travel gear. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, you're getting more for less. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince.

• 1:07:32Ed Zitron?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was on Better Offline. It's the best way to support the show.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored.

• 1:08:21Speaker 09

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:08:35Speaker 10

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:08:46Speaker 09

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:08:52Speaker 11

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:08:58Speaker 09

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:09:21Ed Zitron?

  We return to our scene. We've rotated once more, bringing back Matt Binder of Mashable.

• 1:09:26Speaker 13

  Hey, nice to be here again.

• 1:09:27Ed Zitron?

  And of course, stand-up comedian and star of Is This Thing On?, Chloe Ratcliffe.

• 1:09:31Speaker 05

  Who? You have her? Where is she? Bring her out.

• 1:09:33Ed Zitron?

  There she is.

• 1:09:35Speaker 05

  I must see her.

• 1:09:37Speaker 07

  Someone's gonna, someone is gonna see Is This Thing On? As a result, they've heard the name so many times.

• 1:09:41Speaker 05

  No, you know what I want people to do? Who cares about, it's not, no, the movie's amazing and I'm very happy to be in it. What I want you to do, can I do a little plug?

• 1:09:49Ed Zitron?

  Please, please.

• 1:09:50Speaker 05

  I want you to come to my stand-up shows in either Cincinnati this weekend, January 10th and 11th, or DC next weekend, January 17th and 18th, or my Solo show called Cheat in Philadelphia, January 20th, 21st and 22nd.

• 1:10:02Ed Zitron?

  And I saw she.

• 1:10:03Speaker 05

  That's what I want you to do.

• 1:10:04Ed Zitron?

  I saw she is fucking brilliant.

• 1:10:05Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:10:06Speaker 07

  I need to do that too, cause I'm sorry.

• 1:10:08Ed Zitron?

  Do it, do a plug please.

• 1:10:09Speaker 07

  She plugged, I got a plug. I, uh.

• 1:10:11Speaker 05

  No, no, it's only my turn.

• 1:10:13Speaker 07

  This weekend, I'm gonna be at Comedy on State in Madison, Wisconsin, one of the best clubs in the country. And then I'm gonna be next weekend in Fort Wayne, Indiana, which I, I will not say, at the Summit Comedy Club in Fort Wayne, Indiana, which I will not say is one of the best clubs in the country. But if you live in Fort Wayne, Indiana, it's probably the only club you have access to. And I will be there, so go see me there. And then, and then Houston later this year.

• 1:10:34Ed Zitron?

  And I will be at the Chuckle Hut Las Vegas. Doing my, doing my new set, um, actually, Stolen Valor. And it's me doing the DreamWorks eyebrow for 15 minutes straight. Anyway, we're back talking about CES. Matt Binder has returned.

• 1:10:49Speaker 13

  Ah, yeah.

• 1:10:49Ed Zitron?

  What have you seen recently?

• 1:10:51Speaker 13

  I, I, I, I don't even know anymore, man.

• 1:10:53Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, it's just a slop.

• 1:10:54Speaker 13

  It's just everything, all at once in multiple places. Um, I will say that, uh, this is very insatori in terms of being here, but.

• 1:11:02Ed Zitron?

  That's fine.

• 1:11:03Speaker 13

  They, they, Vegas has very specific Uber pickup points.

• 1:11:07Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 1:11:08Speaker 13

  And it seems like when CES comes to town, they just decide to fuck with everyone and move them places.

• 1:11:13Ed Zitron?

  Yes, they do.

• 1:11:13Speaker 13

  Without telling the Uber drivers.

• 1:11:15Ed Zitron?

  Yep.

• 1:11:15Speaker 13

  So, you know, you try to get somewhere and you just can't because the Uber driver can't fucking get to you.

• 1:11:19Ed Zitron?

  West, you have to go to the West Hall and go to the Diamond Lot, or you have to go to the Renaissance Hotel. That's the only way to get out of the LVCC. You can also take the tram if you want to be shoulder to shoulder with people who will wanna die.

• 1:11:31Speaker 05

  Today I walked from the LVCC.

• 1:11:33Ed Zitron?

  Great. How long did it take you?

• 1:11:34Speaker 05

  Uh, LVCC to here, it took me half an hour, maybe a little bit less.

• 1:11:39Ed Zitron?

  Damn, you power walk.

• 1:11:40Speaker 13

  Ah, yeah, my priority is speed.

• 1:11:46Speaker 13

  What?

• 1:11:48Ed Zitron?

  What a voice. That's like an, an English thing that I'd see in Eureka Park, when your priority is speed and it's just a sass product.

• 1:11:56Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 1:11:57Ed Zitron?

  But, but Matt, have you not seen like?

• 1:11:59Speaker 13

  No, no, there, there, you know.

• 1:12:00Ed Zitron?

  What have you beheld?

• 1:12:00Speaker 13

  All right. So, so I, I did, I don't even remember the name of it, but I did, I remember the last time I was on this show, I was. Uh, lauding the fact that crypto and blockchain is dead at CES.

• 1:12:10Ed Zitron?

  Oh, do you find some?

• 1:12:10Speaker 13

  I unfortunately found something. I don't remember what it did. It was a mining company. Uh, I, I, I don't know what their product did. I mean, uh, but one thing I saw one thing. So it's, it's, it's, we don't got a shutout here at CES when it comes to crypto, but it seems like it is still dead other than that one thing.

• 1:12:27Ed Zitron?

  Right. Yeah. It's the, I will also say when crypto was here, and I do remember it, it was so half-hearted because first of all, it's the problem that all the AI shit runs into, which is it's internet connected, but it's also where AI really doesn't work. Crypto really, really doesn't work. It's like, yeah, it's a blockchain game. Great. So what you do is you get the thing. It takes 10 to 15 minutes based on the Ethereum blockchain. And now one thing has happened. Now, um, you'll do another thing. Yeah. You're going to need more Ethereum because every single time you touch this, I, I, I've definitely walked around a few of those. I'm like, yeah. So does this work? What's proof of concept? We've got a white paper. I'm like, fucking just every.

• 1:13:05Speaker 13

  Well, that's not good. That's not good. Uh, showcase material for a convention.

• 1:13:08Ed Zitron?

  None of it was. And last, last year I did see a panel that was a guy talking about quantum and web three. And I thought it would be funny. No, it was just a guy. It sounded like someone with a concussion. Oh, like web three, web three, web three, quantum, quantum fast, but quantum will break blockchain. And everyone going, hmm.

• 1:13:26Speaker 13

  You, you, you bringing up web three did make me remember that I did. I didn't go into it, but I did pass by apparently. Jason Calacanis, whatever his name is from all in, they were doing a live, just him was doing a live all in podcast at CES. I had no interest in going in, but I mean, they sent, they sent like the, the, the, what the, the, the least.

• 1:13:48Ed Zitron?

  We've sent our clammiest man. Our dampest man is here to bring you the dampest coverage of CES.

• 1:13:54Speaker 13

  Cause, cause the other guy chopped whatever, chopped whatever his name is. He's, he's the, the most wealthy one. I think, right? And then.

• 1:14:00Ed Zitron?

  And there's just David Sacks.

• 1:14:02Speaker 13

  David Sacks is too busy.

• 1:14:03Ed Zitron?

  Melted candle.

• 1:14:03Speaker 13

  Too busy with his insider trading stuff with the Trump administration. Yeah. So I mean, I guess Jason Calacanasten, whatever, how you ever say his last name.

• 1:14:12Ed Zitron?

  Kukarach.

• 1:14:12Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, what was his claim to fame again?

• 1:14:14Ed Zitron?

  He sold, uh, Mahalo.

• 1:14:17Speaker 13

  Yeah, the SEO, uh.

• 1:14:18Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, the SEO shop and then Weblogs.

• 1:14:20Speaker 13

  Slop engine, right.

• 1:14:21Ed Zitron?

  But Weblogs, which created Engadget, it's like a weird thing where like he had a hand. So he was also early on.

• 1:14:25Speaker 13

  Oh, right, right, right, right.

• 1:14:27Ed Zitron?

  Basically, what the fuck is he doing here?

• 1:14:29Speaker 13

  I, he's on the All In Podcast. He's one of the four hosts, right? I mean.

• 1:14:34Ed Zitron?

  What? Yeah, but I mean, I guess I can't really judge someone for being like, I'm gonna do a random podcast at CES. It's not random, I planned it.

• 1:14:41Speaker 13

  Right, right. No, but I mean, it wasn't the, like, this is Ed Zitron's show and Ed Zitron is here.

• 1:14:48Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 1:14:48Speaker 13

  They, All In is four guys and they sent just the one guy they don't really even like.

• 1:14:53Ed Zitron?

  That is really.

• 1:14:55Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, they did a regular episode. They're doing one right now. It's like, yeah, Jason, we need to cover CES. Thank fucking Christ. Okay, let's do the, let's do the show. Jason's gone. God, that would be really, I think, is that four of them?

• 1:15:06Speaker 13

  There's four of them. I never remember the fourth one, uh, but, cause he stays out of the, uh, the political world, I think, for the most part.

• 1:15:14Ed Zitron?

  Or maybe, they had Trump on and he was just like, eh, we're gonna be the biggest immigrants, gonna have the biggest immigrants in the world, they're gonna be the largest. And I'm like, that's so great. You should do one H1Bs. I don't like foreigners. And like, yeah, we don't like them either, but we need H1Bs. We don't like them, but they were the biggest.

• 1:15:27Speaker 13

  He was looking at Chamath, I'm sure, when he said, I don't like foreigners. I'm sure he said.

• 1:15:32Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, I'm sure, sure that that was fine. Oh, God, I can't believe, like, this is, stay, this is meant to be, actually, this is a good segue. This is meant to be the Consumer Electronics Show, but I keep running into non-consumer, like, oh, Eureka Park is like full of just meaningful enterprise stuff, like sensors and like, uh, solar things and like, things that when you look at, you wanna make a joke at it, be like, okay, this is a specific center for like, oh, it's a wetness sensor for a specific, uh, like cleaner of some, it's like a very specific thing. And then just like, a cat litter, like a robotic cat litter thing that was not available.

• 1:16:08Speaker 13

  Right. I mean, yeah, I was taking, uh, video of just like, I was at, I was in something that had like a whole lot of signs up, like it was a science fair. And, and I was, I videoed just like the, the titles because they were baffling to me. Fleet Management with Vision AI.

• 1:16:24Ed Zitron?

  Nice.

• 1:16:24Speaker 13

  Edge AI meets human touch.

• 1:16:27Ed Zitron?

  What?

• 1:16:27Speaker 13

  And then AI native compute for the IOT. These are not consumer products.

• 1:16:33Ed Zitron?

  These are money laundering operations.

• 1:16:35Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Ed Zitron?

  That's just connecting, that's just connecting various phrases together.

• 1:16:38Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 1:16:39Ed Zitron?

  To see how many venture capitalists actually read the things they invest in.

• 1:16:42Speaker 13

  That's classic CES, though. A few years ago, it was every company was a web three metaverse, interactive, uh, artificial intelligence blocked on the blockchain.

• 1:16:52Ed Zitron?

  My favorite one was one that was just-

• 1:16:53Speaker 05

  I wanna buy that. Yeah.

• 1:16:55Ed Zitron?

  No, my favorite one was one that just said, let's see, it was called Sorb? And it just said, solve via sorb. Let's just bring this up. Yeah.

• 1:17:03Speaker 05

  I, for a second, I thought he said solve.

• 1:17:05Ed Zitron?

  Sorb, solve via sorb.

• 1:17:09Speaker 13

  So, oh, solve. Your accent is making this specifically difficult.

• 1:17:12Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, this is really difficult. I just read, sorb, S O R V, solve via sorb. And I will admit, I didn't wanna know anything more because mostly that handled it. Like, I got, I got it. I, I, my, I'm constantly like, what do I do? And I sorb.

• 1:17:25Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:17:25Ed Zitron?

  That's, I'm sorbing.

• 1:17:27Speaker 05

  A, a side note on the accent, my, this is a completely unrelated. I'm also dating a British man and, uh, I'm dating a man who is also British and, uh, he tried to make a joke of, what's your source on that? But he pronounced it, but he was-

• 1:17:40Ed Zitron?

  Source.

• 1:17:41Speaker 05

  The joke was, what's your sauce on that?

• 1:17:43Ed Zitron?

  Uh huh.

• 1:17:43Speaker 05

  But in a British accent, source and sauce are exactly the same word. Like, there is no distinguishing. And I made him say, what's your sauce on that? Probably 15 times in a row because I was like, I don't understand what the joke is. I know you are making a joke.

• 1:17:58Ed Zitron?

  This is like, I, there's a show called P A W N stars. Now, here's my problem. If I start saying, yeah, I was watching porn stars, this-

• 1:18:08Speaker 05

  There's, it's for all-

• 1:18:09Ed Zitron?

  This leads to more questions than answers.

• 1:18:12Speaker 05

  For all that the Brits are, are king of wordplay, in America, we've come up with a lot of wordplay that absolutely paralyzes you guys.

• 1:18:21Ed Zitron?

  And I'm like, yeah, I'm watching porn stars. There's this big guy called Chumley and then there's Rick and they're like-

• 1:18:27Ed Zitron?

  All right. Um, it's like, yeah, one is constantly conning people. I'm like, whoa, this is some weird porno. I'm like, no, no.

• 1:18:33Speaker 07

  You know what's funny is I literally was thinking of Pawn Stars like 120 seconds ago, because when you were talking about them sending the one guy from All In, I was like, that's like if it was the cast of Pawn Stars and they only sent Chumley. I was like, maybe that's a joke I should say. And then I let it pass because I was like, Pawn Stars is kind of an old reference. And then here you are, fucking two minutes later.

• 1:18:53Speaker 13

  Have you ever told anyone who your favorite character is and then you have to let them know it's the old man?

• 1:18:58Speaker 07

  The old man?

• 1:18:59Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 1:19:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, no, my brain is- He's my favorite porn star.

• 1:19:03Ed Zitron?

  I like the old man that sounds like this in my porn star. Yeah, it's, but every episode of that show is great because it's just Chumley being like, yeah, I bought a car, a Toyota Corolla for $15,000. And then Rick's like, ah, that's terrible, but I scammed an old lady out of a $50 million coin by giving her 300 bucks. It's just an evil show and I love it.

• 1:19:25Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:19:26Ed Zitron?

  But they charge you to go in there now. They should be on the show floor. Why don't Chumley should just kind of like amble through Eureka Park.

• 1:19:34Speaker 07

  They charge you to go into the actual physical store now?

• 1:19:39Ed Zitron?

  I've not, I've not actually been because I think every Vegas resident just stays out of the tourist areas. But yeah, it's, I would love them to come on the show.

• 1:19:47Speaker 05

  This is, this is back to my pitch about a CES Fringe Festival.

• 1:19:51Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 1:19:51Speaker 05

  We could have shit like, the Pawn Stars guys have, have a booth.

• 1:19:57Ed Zitron?

  Chumley trying to buy a startup.

• 1:19:59Speaker 07

  Isn't genuinely, I mean, CES Fringe Festival would be kind of like, like XOXO or another like creative tech festival. You could do something like that nearby and have like cool people with like their itch.io projects.

• 1:20:11Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:12Speaker 07

  And like their weird hacky things, you know, that would be fun.

• 1:20:14Ed Zitron?

  And or just like you get the grandma orb and you just fucking obliterate it. You just have a 50 cal rifle that you unload into a computer. Okay, this is actually-

• 1:20:24Speaker 05

  It's like a rage room for, you can go to CES and then there's a rage room with all of the products at CES that you then get to-

• 1:20:31Ed Zitron?

  Walking around the shop being like, do you mind if I shoot this? And like, what?

• 1:20:35Speaker 05

  I just wanna, I wanna state for the record, if any listener decides to start a CES Fringe, you have to, you have to credit me as a co-creator.

• 1:20:44Speaker 07

  Oh, okay, okay, but they'll have to pay you.

• 1:20:46Speaker 05

  I would like you to pay me.

• 1:20:47Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:20:48Speaker 05

  That would be nice if you paid me.

• 1:20:49Speaker 13

  It's your IP.

• 1:20:50Speaker 05

  It's my IP.

• 1:20:51Speaker 13

  There you go.

• 1:20:51Speaker 05

  It's developed here on the show.

• 1:20:52Ed Zitron?

  Developed on Betroffline and thus owned by iHeartRadio.

• 1:20:55Speaker 05

  Fuck, fuck, fuck.

• 1:20:56Ed Zitron?

  No, no, the ideas on this show are owned by, I think, me, I haven't really checked. Anyway, no, it's, it's such a peculiar show and I don't wanna repeat myself and just go, it's useless, but it is, there are less cameras, dildos and batteries companies, which is disappointing. And there are less practical, like I've been looking for Anchor, A-N-K-E-R.

• 1:21:17Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:21:17Ed Zitron?

  They're like my favorite, like I got big fucking anchor battery.

• 1:21:20Speaker 13

  They make a lot of mobile chargers and stuff.

• 1:21:22Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, mobile chargers, projectors and stuff like, I like them, can't find, no, like, and it's funny, the description of the useful products so far, stuff that exists, stuff like a, a battery for girls, like that's, that's new.

• 1:21:34Speaker 05

  Now, that doesn't exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:36Ed Zitron?

  Cause a woman, if you try and picked up this battery.

• 1:21:38Speaker 05

  It's too heavy.

• 1:21:39Ed Zitron?

  You'd be like, whoa.

• 1:21:40Speaker 05

  I go, my arms are so weak.

• 1:21:43Speaker 13

  My tiny woman.

• 1:21:44Speaker 05

  Ouchie, mister, can you lift this for me? Thank you.

• 1:21:48Ed Zitron?

  I don't like this one, cause it's black, but if it had flowers on it, then I'd love it.

• 1:21:53Speaker 05

  Then I go, that's for me.

• 1:21:54Speaker 13

  A little mirror on it, you can check your makeup.

• 1:21:56Ed Zitron?

  Oh, so you could look at yourself, cause women do that.

• 1:21:59Speaker 05

  I love mirror.

• 1:22:03Ed Zitron?

  You could get so far at this show, just be, yeah, but as a man, I prefer to have a hologram waifu.

• 1:22:10Speaker 05

  Now, I will say, okay, not to be all a woman about it, but the wife tube, I was, I was.

• 1:22:17Speaker 07

  You could have, you could put a man in the tube.

• 1:22:19Speaker 05

  And does anyone.

• 1:22:20Speaker 13

  Which one you talk, you took him like Amy?

• 1:22:22Speaker 07

  The razor one.

• 1:22:23Speaker 05

  Oh, the razor one.

• 1:22:24Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, Victoria was saying, there's a man with tattoos you can put in it.

• 1:22:27Speaker 13

  Yeah, so the, the, I don't remember if we even talked about this when I was on last time.

• 1:22:31Ed Zitron?

  No, this will be, no, we should keep talking about the tube.

• 1:22:33Speaker 13

  Okay, so the razor one is the project Mokoto or Mokatu or something like that.

• 1:22:38Speaker 07

  No, no, that's the headphones, Project Ava is the, is the wife in the tube.

• 1:22:42Speaker 13

  Oh no, you're right. You're right. Yeah.

• 1:22:43Speaker 07

  Project.

• 1:22:44Speaker 13

  I was just there and I really learned it. I got confused. You are correct. Yes. Yeah. I'm glad you're on this. Thank you. Cause I'm not. Yeah, but there are weirder ones because because the the razor one actually, do they show it to you? Right? So they were like actual, I wouldn't use it, but they were, there were actual use case applications like, and you could put a guy in it if you wanted to. Yeah. And like, you know, you're playing, you're playing a video game and you're like, oh, is this the best, uh, you know, configuration for my character? No, no, you're eating the marketing material. But that at least is like a, an idea they got. There's, there's one that I saw from a company.

• 1:23:21Speaker 05

  It's a pretty low bar when we're like, they've got an idea.

• 1:23:23Speaker 13

  Yeah. I mean, that's, that's CES. They got an idea. That might as well be the. The tagline is slogan.

• 1:23:30Speaker 05

  CES.

• 1:23:31Speaker 13

  They got an idea. I guess. Anyway, wait, wait. But you've seen alternative tubes. Yes. So, so lem, this company, Lemprow, has this, is this tube called Amy? And it's not as good of a hologram, but it's still, you put a woman in a box, which is weird. A tiny woman in a box is a big thing now, apparently, because a lot of companies want to do this. It's very weird. Oingo boingo video. But the whole, the whole purpose of the Amy from Lemprow seems to be not AI assistant or any ideas like that. It's simply, you're a lonely guy and you want to talk to this, a woman and you don't have a woman to talk to. You ever thought about trapping a woman?

• 1:24:11Speaker 05

  And you don't want her to be full size.

• 1:24:13Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:24:14Speaker 05

  And you don't want her to be able to go anywhere.

• 1:24:16Speaker 13

  Because they were, they were, they were talking about it as an AI companion. And my colleague at Mashable was doing a video on it, holding the device, talking about it, saying, you know, if you need a friend, I guess. And while he's saying friend, the little woman in the box starts literally like gyrating her body as if she's like doing a striptease. And I had to be like, buddy, I don't think she's meant to be your friend. I mean, this is.

• 1:24:40Ed Zitron?

  Have you ever wanted the experience of thinking a stripper fell in love with you every day?

• 1:24:44Speaker 13

  Right, and it's, it's because, listen, I, I, I don't want to put a stigma on sex tech. CES already did that years ago.

• 1:24:50Ed Zitron?

  We already talked about jacking off.

• 1:24:51Speaker 13

  Right, right. But, but like, this doesn't feel like sex tech. This feels like gooner tech. I don't know, it doesn't feel like something that like, is normal even for like, what people should be experiencing sexually.

• 1:25:05Speaker 07

  In order to wanna have it socially, you need to be socially stunted in a way that other people perceive as unusual. Like, I remember when I was a nerd and I grew up around other nerds and then occasionally, I remember like-

• 1:25:19Speaker 05

  Now he's a cool-

• 1:25:19Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, now he's cool.

• 1:25:20Speaker 07

  I remember being like 16 and one of my friends would say something about, about women where I'm like, oh, you really don't see them as people. And not in like even a, you, you feel so pathetic internally, you have so little ability to communicate, that you sort of see it as, you see another person as, as being a stimulus producing machine for your purpose. And there are people like that and you, you, to buy one of these products, you have to, that's how you have to see other people.

• 1:25:48Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:25:48Speaker 07

  You have, you have to be like really mentally, socially, emotionally, like disabled in a way.

• 1:25:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I, I just wanna, I wanna sort of plant a flag very firmly, and we don't even have to analyze this, but just sort of like, for posterity's sake, the sort of, the, the broadest and most, most foundational symbology of a technology where it says, here's a little woman that lives in a box on your desk, is just sort of every sentence, every word in that sentence-

• 1:26:17Speaker 13

  Imagine explaining that to someone.

• 1:26:18Speaker 05

  Is like worse and worse and worse for, uh, gender dynamics.

• 1:26:21Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Speaker 05

  Like, it, it, uh, really does symbolize somebody who doesn't see women as equals.

• 1:26:28Speaker 13

  Right. I mean, one of the, one of the recommended demo like, uh, uh, commands you were, they, they told you to try was to go up to the box and say, "Dance for me." I mean, that, that alone is very weird.

• 1:26:41Speaker 05

  Pretty, pretty damning.

• 1:26:42Speaker 13

  And for people who use this type of thing, they're-

• 1:26:44Ed Zitron?

  Dance for me. Are you Jabba the Hutt? Do you want, do you wanna be like Jabba the Hutt? I've had a, I've had a long day, oh, do you dance for me? Dance for me, Tube Woman, show me. Oh, that's good. No, do it more like I like it.

• 1:27:01Ed Zitron?

  Yes, yes, that's good. Yes, that feels good, yes. Oh my god, I, I, but also I hate to ask, but how was the woman white and thin by any chance?

• 1:27:13Speaker 13

  There, there were, there were a few women.

• 1:27:15Ed Zitron?

  Oh, many women to trap.

• 1:27:17Speaker 13

  But you could, you could pretty much guess, yes, there was like a, a, a white, like a blonde, white schoolgirl. And then a, a, a, like, uh, like a Japanese woman dressed in like traditional Japanese garb, you know? The type of stuff.

• 1:27:31Speaker 05

  It's really bad.

• 1:27:32Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 1:27:32Speaker 05

  It's really, really, really bad.

• 1:27:34Speaker 07

  I think making it, for me, actually making it anime makes it slightly more palatable, palatable, because there is.

• 1:27:40Speaker 05

  But it's not anime.

• 1:27:41Speaker 07

  Oh, it's not anime?

• 1:27:42Speaker 05

  It's just, it's just a white schoolgirl.

• 1:27:44Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, it's just people fetishizing Asian women.

• 1:27:46Speaker 13

  They're not real, they're not like hu- human models. They are sort of like cartoony.

• 1:27:51Ed Zitron?

  Okay.

• 1:27:51Speaker 13

  But it is like an anime style, but it's, yeah.

• 1:27:54Speaker 07

  There's stuff like Genshin Impact where people like collect their favorite characters.

• 1:27:58Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Speaker 07

  They find them sexy. Both women and men do this. And it's like, it's a little, it's sort of like fun fantasy land. And I can see a version of this product that like appeals to the Genshin Impact player.

• 1:28:09Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:28:10Speaker 07

  Where like, the average person might be like, that's kind of weird, but I know enough people who do it where I'm like, you can do it in a fun way.

• 1:28:15Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:28:15Speaker 07

  But like, in general, as a.

• 1:28:17Ed Zitron?

  The schoolgirl shit.

• 1:28:18Speaker 07

  What they're selling is a companion, which is bad.

• 1:28:20Speaker 13

  Right. Like the Razor one you said, like the, the, the model of the woman in there was like an anime character. It was like a known, I don't know who she was, but it was a known person. And while she might have been dressed like provocatively, it was the character, but also there's no actions that add to that, that, that, that, that at all.

• 1:28:37Ed Zitron?

  I'm just how her character is dressed. I think it's all evil.

• 1:28:40Speaker 13

  I agree, but I'm, I'm just trying to differentiate the two products. This one, this one, they were, they were, they were dressed that way and then acting out ways you would fantasize someone.

• 1:28:53Speaker 05

  And not, and wait, are you saying the Razor one is a real character? Is it a character that exists in the world?

• 1:28:58Speaker 13

  Yes.

• 1:28:58Speaker 05

  And then these are not, these are just.

• 1:28:59Speaker 13

  These are just their own AI companion creations.

• 1:29:02Speaker 05

  And you think about it and you're like, you know, these people, you, you have, when you're designing a companion, you have a literal infinite number of human characters who you could, you know, like, why not pick a 65 year old lady bus driver in the Bronx? Why not?

• 1:29:18Ed Zitron?

  Honestly.

• 1:29:18Speaker 05

  Why not? But this is what I'm saying. But the reason that you are laughing at this, and look, I'm saying that as a joke.

• 1:29:23Ed Zitron?

  It's because it's not sexualized.

• 1:29:24Speaker 05

  But the reason that I'm laughing, you're laughing is because it's not sexualized.

• 1:29:26Ed Zitron?

  Meryl Streep in a box.

• 1:29:27Speaker 13

  Meryl Streep in a box.

• 1:29:28Ed Zitron?

  I'm gonna be honest.

• 1:29:29Speaker 05

  I wanna fuck Meryl Streep.

• 1:29:31Ed Zitron?

  No, not saying that. Okay.

• 1:29:33Speaker 13

  What if, what if I just want to talk shop with Meryl Streep about her film career in a little box?

• 1:29:38Ed Zitron?

  But I'm, I'm gonna be honest, some of the best conversations I've ever had have been with like random old people at airports. Like, um, a few years ago, I was at a random, I forget where I was, like, maybe Salt Lake City or, regardless, I just talked to this guy next to me and he was a former NFL player from like the sixties or se- like it was before it was like a high paying job. And we just chatted shit for half an hour and we kind of talked about it. And I was like, yeah, I'm going through some shit right now. I'm like, we had an honest conversation. That was probably like, I can't imagine-

• 1:30:01Speaker 05

  That was more socially healing.

• 1:30:03Ed Zitron?

  And as, but as far as like, yeah, to your point, exactly. Sorry, I didn't mean to talk over you. But it's like, the actual thing-

• 1:30:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm a woman.

• 1:30:09Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, I know. They're gonna get me for this. But the loneliness thing, the isolation, isn't solved by sex. And like, immediately placing woman in this situation where they are the solution to men's problems is put it, it's male loneliness bullshit. It's claiming that woman are somehow the solution to men not seeking introspection and companionship.

• 1:30:29Speaker 05

  And what's funny is that it's not even w- w- woman is the solution because there's a, there's a sixty-five-year-old Bronx bus driver-

• 1:30:37Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:38Speaker 05

  -who would not count as the solution. What it is, is there is a, there is a specific checklist of a woman's weight-

• 1:30:48Ed Zitron?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:48Speaker 05

  -facial beauty and social subservience-

• 1:30:52Ed Zitron?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:52Speaker 05

  -that are supposed to, that are supposed to fit into, into this very narrow range of measurements. And that woman then owes service to man who is lonely.

• 1:31:04Ed Zitron?

  Yep.

• 1:31:05Speaker 05

  And, and I want to be, I want to be like as fair as possible. So, uh, say, um, a man is very lonely, a man, a man lives a very isolated life.

• 1:31:15Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:16Speaker 05

  And goes, I, I can see a use for an AI companion as a, like, a social, like, fill, fill the hole that is in my life that I can't figure out another way to fill.

• 1:31:26Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 1:31:26Speaker 05

  That maybe we would say, hey, what do you like? Do you like chess? Go find a once a week chess, or once a month chess night. Hey, do you like, I don't know, whatever, like, fucking anything.

• 1:31:35Speaker 13

  There's chess playing robots that'll solve that problem.

• 1:31:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to talk to people. Right, that like, I understand that there are people who live an incredibly isolated life that I would maybe look at it and go, there are ways to solve this. There are analog, hu- human to human ways to solve this and to take baby steps forward. Sure, of cour- I mean, I think that that's the solution and I'll be all, but like, I can imagine somebody who goes, that kind of human facing solution is impossible for me. I cannot imagine leaving my apartment. I cannot imagine going to a chest night. I cannot imagine, whatever, insert, sure, fine. Okay, so I'm trying to like, be as fair as possible, have as much, as much empathy as possible. And, and this person, first of all, the idea that this person doesn't have inherent, sorry, I'm really on my lady soapbox now. This is great.

• 1:32:18Speaker 05

  But the idea that that person doesn't already, it, it like, hasn't already been inherently soaked in sexist assumptions and standards and, and a, a view inherently of women as unequal. Because that is, we all, I view women as unequal because that is the water that we swim in, that is how we, that is how, that is how we are socialized. So like, those assumptions already exist in all of us, and particularly in this isolated person. But again, I'm being as fair as possible, say that those assumptions are not actually sur- surface level. They're inherent, they, they, they operate in how we, we make subconscious judgments. Right. But this person is not, you know, sort of like outright a sexist.

• 1:32:58Speaker 05

  They buy wife in a tube and suddenly there, if we're assuming that they're pretty isolated, suddenly there, a huge bulk of their interaction with what feels like a human is Japanese lady in a kimono, who probably has big tits under that kimono, good for, you know, like, good surprise. And one other thing though, is- That it's like, that suddenly it becomes your only interaction with, with the concept of a woman? Or, or the vast majority of your interaction with the concept of a woman? Like, that inherently is going to poison how you interact with, your, your interactions with gender.

• 1:33:42Speaker 05

  And I just, like, that, that to me, that is my fairest take, where, where, where I'm not saying it's evil at the top. Or, I'm sorry, it's like evil at the out, from the outset. I think the product is evil from the outset, but- The person doesn't necessarily have to be like fucked up from the outset, but I just think this product is going to be.

• 1:34:02Speaker 13

  I wanna, right.

• 1:34:03Ed Zitron?

  I wanna add one thing to that, which is it also inherently connects loneliness with sex and physical validation.

• 1:34:08Speaker 05

  Right, yeah.

• 1:34:08Ed Zitron?

  Cause it's like, why isn't a guy, like, why do you have to have a woman you are attracted to, to solve your loneliness? Why is your companion by default the opposite sex? And I assume validating how you look and telling you you're attracted. Why is that? Because that is not, because that's where it gets into the like woman subservience thing for me as well, because it's how our woman is serviced.

• 1:34:31Speaker 13

  That's, that's cause all these, all these, all these products aren't solved. If, if your issue is solving your, your social problem.

• 1:34:37Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Speaker 13

  None of these, no tech product is going to solve that.

• 1:34:40Ed Zitron?

  Therapy will do that.

• 1:34:41Speaker 13

  Yes, but the whole point.

• 1:34:42Speaker 05

  Or, or like exposing, like exposure to the outside world will do that.

• 1:34:46Speaker 13

  Like you, if, if you have a, a problem socializing with people, then the way you fix that is by forcing yourself to socialize with people.

• 1:34:53Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:53Speaker 13

  Like tech can't by definition fix that, cause tech is not a person.

• 1:34:57Ed Zitron?

  And I mean, I used to be a very awkward, but like even like, you're not Chloe.

• 1:35:01Speaker 05

  But he's cool now.

• 1:35:02Ed Zitron?

  But I'm cool now, no, I am not. But like, it's like, and it took having to have some very harsh conversations with myself and my therapist and just accepting that like, yeah, I was awkward. I was not thoughtful about my conversation style and I was just hated myself and didn't think I was human. Yeah, I've been to fucking therapy now, it's great, but it's solving that would not be someone validating my every whim. You kinda need to hurt a little bit because no, no one is perfect. But it's like saying, oh yeah, a sexy waifu in a tube is your prisoner now. And now you won't be lonely because the prison wife is yours.

• 1:35:37Speaker 05

  And I can, and again, like being as fair as possible, giving, giving as much credit to the other perspectives as possible. I can imagine somebody saying, when, when you're saying like, I don't want the solution to be loneliness to be inherently tied to romance. I agree at a philosophical level, but I can imagine that from a pragmatic view, a huge amount of very lonely people are like, yeah, I would fucking love to be in love.

• 1:36:01Ed Zitron?

  There, there's a lot. It doesn't solve it. It doesn't solve it. If you, if you hate yourself and you meet someone and you have sex with them and you're with them and you still fucking hate yourself, you are going to become dependent on that woman.

• 1:36:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:36:13Ed Zitron?

  And you are going to be a fucking, you're going to be a tumor on them. It's just, I hate.

• 1:36:18Speaker 05

  It's a birthmark, Ed.

• 1:36:19Ed Zitron?

  It sucks. The I legit, you know.

• 1:36:23Speaker 05

  Listeners who have no idea that I have a huge

• 1:36:24Ed Zitron?

  Chloe, my autism is such that I genuinely don't think about your birthmark ever. And you know, I'm like the one person.

• 1:36:31Speaker 05

  Oh, no, I know 100%. It's my favorite joke to make.

• 1:36:33Ed Zitron?

  Oh, no, it fucking rocks. Used to store anyway.

• 1:36:37Speaker 07

  For those who don't know Claire, Chloe, she's got a big birthmark. For those who are just hearing her via audio. Look, it is, first of all, the loneliness epidemic is real. It does kill people. It's like, the discourse about it, whatever, but like, it is a real problem. It's also like evidence of such a deep distortion in our society that we have it because the thing that we have the most of in the world is other people.

• 1:37:05Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. We got too many.

• 1:37:07Speaker 07

  We are literally the most.

• 1:37:09Speaker 05

  Second only to other chickens.

• 1:37:10Speaker 07

  And the whole idea of replacing people with technology at all is insane because we've got eight billion of us, up from six billion when I was in like high school. And guess what? They're cheap. Like you want one in America? You can get one for seven bucks an hour and they'll do whatever the fuck you want. You know, like that's.

• 1:37:28Speaker 05

  Seven twenty five.

• 1:37:29Speaker 07

  By the way, even when it comes to like companionship, right? There's a role for people to do that commercially. I'm friends with, with women who are sex workers and they see, at least a couple of them as like, look, there's guys who like, they need love and sex. It's a human need. They like have their neurodivergent or have some other issue in such a way. And I can provide a service and they get something out of it. It's reciprocal.

• 1:37:52Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 1:37:52Speaker 07

  That's the best version of it, right? Et cetera. Um, I could, I could go into details, but like, that's a real, that's a real, that's a, that's like a, an occupation that's stigmatized in our society.

• 1:38:03Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:03Speaker 07

  But like, it's a real thing that a human could do better.

• 1:38:07Speaker 05

  Well, even, yeah.

• 1:38:08Speaker 07

  And the idea that we're replacing people is insane.

• 1:38:10Speaker 13

  Yeah, there, there is a difference though, I think between like the, the loneliness epidemic and like the socialization problem. Like there are guys who have plenty of friends, just have trouble with women. So they go to sex workers and that's, that's fine. And they, hopefully they don't, you know, they are normal people other than that, but, you know, but the, the socialization thing, these people who aren't even thinking about, you know. Interacting with another woman even for pay like this. These are people who who just want to control something because they they don't even want to. I don't think they want to fix the socialization problem because why would you buy a woman in a box if you're like I'm socially awkward. I need to talk to someone. That doesn't solve your issue. That's not even something that gets you in that direction in my opinion. Yeah.

• 1:38:50Ed Zitron?

  I just I don't think it. It doesn't involve an introspection.

• 1:38:53Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:38:53Ed Zitron?

  It's just about I got a thing that kind of solves the problem so that I don't have to think about solving the problem.

• 1:39:00Speaker 13

  Right. Like meeting people online like that's a fairly new thing. And you know what? It solved a lot of problems for a lot of people because you actually it's technology. You you use technology to actually enhance your real life, your your real world.

• 1:39:11Ed Zitron?

  Every single person in this room who has been on this show, including Phil, who I've known for 14 years, I know through the internet.

• 1:39:18Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:39:18Ed Zitron?

  Every single fucking one. I'm like the drill crying tweet where it's like my my beautiful wife crying, my job crying, my my watch crying. Now get the fuck out of my office. But that with the internet. And it's like, it is difficult. It I'm not pretending like loneliness isn't like a thing, but I fuck it. I resent the male loneliness thing because women get lonely too. And they solve it in a vastly different way. And there's not just a series of different cons set up to corner women as being like, you want a husband tube?

• 1:39:48Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:39:48Ed Zitron?

  Do you want the do you want the man tube?

• 1:39:50Speaker 13

  There there is none. Right. There's nothing. No one putting in a guy in a box. Right.

• 1:39:53Ed Zitron?

  There's no one saying that because women are put in a position where they meant to work. They meant to fucking work it out. Women have to fucking work out. Women are told it's your fucking fault. You're lonely. Why are you fucking? Why are you too emotional? Why are you this? Why are you that? Fucking just it pisses me off because it's like these whiny fucking men who are like, oh, yeah, I'm fucking lonely. And so I'm gonna become racist. And it just fuck off. I'm sorry. I have some very spicy feelings about this because I went through the actual work and it was very difficult and annoying.

• 1:40:20Speaker 13

  I no, I fully agree with you. I think, you know, I don't think they they consider the fact that women are are can be lonely. Like it's not because in in in a lonely in a lonely guy's world, they think and you see this online all the time because you could see how angry they get when oh, a woman decides to like start an OnlyFans and they are successful and they make money doing that. They're like, oh, it's so easy for women. They just go out there and they could talk to anybody and every guy will want to talk with them. And it's like, you know, but you could just go out there and talk too. What's nothing stopping you.

• 1:40:51Ed Zitron?

  Oh, I'm gonna say something really out there. Every guy who says that, get on OnlyFans, start selling pictures of your cock. I'm serious. I'm actually fucking serious.

• 1:41:00Speaker 05

  To gay men.

• 1:41:00Ed Zitron?

  Go and, yes.

• 1:41:01Speaker 05

  Who they would never allow to purchase pictures of their cock because gay is bad because, why is gay bad? Because it is close to woman.

• 1:41:09Ed Zitron?

  Mm hmm. It's feminine. You couldn't possibly look at a man's penis. He might turn gay.

• 1:41:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just comes down to the like such foundational views. It's the, it's the, it's the most foundational framing of women in society, which is women are

• 1:41:30Speaker 05

  there to be consumed and men are there to consume.

• 1:41:33Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Speaker 05

  And it's so deeply fucked up and it holds, it kills, it kills women and it kills, arguably it kills men too.

• 1:41:42Ed Zitron?

  Oh, it absolutely kills men.

• 1:41:43Speaker 05

  Yeah. Thank you, Adam, for sticking up for the men.

• 1:41:47Speaker 07

  Well, you know, I think that the point you make is you guys can, you can go and talk to anybody anytime is true. To me, it's, it's similar to a lot of other social problems like, you know, poor nutrition, people being in poor shape, not exercising, right? Yes, anyone can eat better and jog or whatever. And also, some people grow up in an environment where everything that they're ever told, every product they ever purchased, their entire environment is pushing them away from doing that thing.

• 1:42:14Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:15Speaker 07

  And they just never get around to it. So like, my dad has no friends. My mom has 20 friends. Not because my dad's a piece of shit, just that's the way American society is structured. And so, yes, my dad has a responsibility and also society can look at this overall problem, go, what the fuck are we doing wrong here that's causing this like demographic problem? And the answer is not waifus in tubes. The answer is like connecting people with other people.

• 1:42:40Ed Zitron?

  Third places.

• 1:42:41Speaker 13

  But, but also is, is your, is your dad lonely? Like, there's some people who just prefer actually just not.

• 1:42:45Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, my, my father, he's quite happy. He hangs out with my mom, my family.

• 1:42:48Speaker 13

  Like, for it to be a socialization problem, you have to be a lonely guy who's upset you're alone.

• 1:42:53Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, you feel like you owed something.

• 1:42:54Speaker 05

  Who's upset you're alone and not trying to change that.

• 1:42:57Speaker 13

  Right, right, right. Cause, cause if there are people who are completely content being isolated and they don't view themselves as that, but like, you know, they, they'd prefer to stay in and then go out and hang out or party. Like, they, they like their time to themselves. Yeah. And that's completely fine, but there's people who are inside and are angry they're inside and alone. And that's the difference, I think. So. Yeah.

• 1:43:15Ed Zitron?

  So I hate to do this. We're gonna rotate again. Coming up, an ad for men and women.

• 1:43:21Speaker 13

  Whoa.

• 1:43:21Ed Zitron?

  I've.

• 1:43:22Speaker 13

  There are products like that?

• 1:43:24Ed Zitron?

  They got them for both birds and the fellas now.

• 1:43:26Speaker 13

  Wow.

• 1:43:35Speaker 08

  Cash Flow Crunch, OnDeck's small business line of credit, gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:44:05Ed Zitron?

  All right, everyone, I'm back talking about Quince, one of my favorite clothing brands. And as we speak, I'm currently wearing one of their excellent cotton knit overshirts. I wear like a jacket. Nice pre fall piece to wear as things cool off a bit. I've also been eyeballing one of their heritage water resistant Harrington jackets too for later in the year to pair with their Mongolian cashmere sweaters I bought. And I have several of them and I really can't recommend Quince's stuff enough. I love Quince because they focus on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials, jackets, pants, fitted tees and polos, activewear and even travel gear. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, you're getting more for less. Find the fall pieces you'll

• 1:44:47Ed Zitron?

  reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was on better offline. It's the best way to support the show.

• 1:45:05Speaker 00

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 1:45:37Speaker 09

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ushkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:45:51Speaker 10

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:46:02Speaker 09

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 1:46:07Speaker 11

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:46:14Speaker 09

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:46:38Ed Zitron?

  We're in the fourth quarter and I haven't had any water. That's actually true. I've not drank a drop of water. I think I've had 11 Diet Coke.

• 1:46:45Speaker 05

  You do have a bottle of water next to you.

• 1:46:47Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, it's mostly, I just like to sit with it. Okay, we're back. It's better offline and we talked about male loneliness epidemic, I guess. We're back, and of course, with comedian and actress Chloe Radcliffe. We will let you do your plags, plags?

• 1:46:59Speaker 05

  Plags.

• 1:47:00Ed Zitron?

  Do your plags.

• 1:47:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Ed Zitron?

  Do your plags.

• 1:47:02Speaker 05

  Put your plags on people.

• 1:47:03Ed Zitron?

  Plags at the end, and you, of course, Adam Conover, stand-up comedian. Hello. And of course, the host of the Factually Broadcast. And we're actually joined by Ben, my good mate, Ben Rudolph. It's good to see you. Is the CEO of Cartographic, and you did 15 years at Microsoft? I sure did. You did the PR for Windows Vista, you were saying? Enterprise PR for Windows Vista, the worst job in the company. It's honestly, though, that's the most PR thing you like. You always have one. Yeah. You have one thing. I made it, though. No, you made it and you're still smiling. I'm here. But that's like, it's Jermaine's what we're talking about, like positive male role models, positive male discussions, because I brought you here because you're a good mate. And we've done a lot of like, we're friends online and you've talked to me about fitness and being like, you've genuinely changed my life, like helping me build a workout routine.

• 1:47:45Ed Zitron?

  This like my relationship with you solves more male loneliness than any like romantic relationship I've ever had.

• 1:47:51Speaker 05

  Are you a, are you a fitness co- coach? Or are you just do, okay?

• 1:47:57Speaker 14

  No, not really. No, at all.

• 1:47:59Ed Zitron?

  He is just, and just to give you an idea, Ben is fucking like jacked. It's awesome.

• 1:48:04Speaker 14

  I'm trying every day.

• 1:48:05Ed Zitron?

  And he's huge.

• 1:48:06Speaker 14

  To get a little bit more, a little bit more.

• 1:48:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:08Speaker 14

  No, I'm not, I'm not a fitness coach at all. I, I love lifting weights. I try and keep myself in shape. I've got nine kids, so.

• 1:48:15Speaker 05

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:48:15Speaker 14

  Yeah. So I got a lot of people who are dependent on me.

• 1:48:19Ed Zitron?

  Go lift up. Nine kids.

• 1:48:21Speaker 14

  A lot of, exactly. A lot of functional fitness. Oh, but seriously, like it's great for my health. It's great for my mental health.

• 1:48:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:28Speaker 14

  It's great for my family.

• 1:48:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:48:30Speaker 14

  You know, and like you had, like it, it solves as many mental challenges for me as it does physical challenges. So like, it's not a career for me. It's just something I really enjoy doing. And it's so deeply ingrained into my day to day routine that I really can't imagine living without it.

• 1:48:46Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. And we, we met over X, the everything app and we, the ultimate poster championship with you, me, Caleb and Tatiana. And we just talked fitness and like, I fucked up my body real bad doing connected fitness stuff. Actually, it was like, um, fight camp and tonal. And I was lifting real hard. I was not in a good place. And I kind of went to Ben, I'm like, this keeps happening and I keep like getting this pain. And Ben just sends me a video of him and his son. He's like, I'm going to show you how to throw a punch. And it was lovely. Like your son was like, you ready? And he just threw this perfect like spiral punch. I went, wow, I've been punching wrong for several months. Because you need to like rotate your hips and such. And it's just like, it's one of the things I cherish. Cause it's like a wonderful relationship over the internet.

• 1:49:27Speaker 14

  For sure.

• 1:49:27Ed Zitron?

  Wonderful, a positive thing based with talking to another bloke about something positive. And I think it's really easy to dilute a lot of loneliness to, well, I need a female or a romantic companion. I need someone to make me feel better about myself. Versus helping me along a journey where I do that work while someone inspires me because you're fucking cute and you've done. You you always post the ones where you've got like eight eighty nine inch biceps or whatever. I think it's lovely. And also I'm saying if you're listening to this as a man and you're saying, oh, I'm lonely as go and talk to another fella. Ask him how he's feeling. Talk to him about how you feel. Don't fucking say, I need the wife tube.

• 1:50:02Speaker 05

  And now I do think, okay, so again, I'm trying, I'm, I really am keeping central in my vision. Thinking about the other perspective and being as fair as possible. So if I'm a man listening to this podcast and I'm like, I'm lonely and Ed's advice is, go tell another man how you're feeling.

• 1:50:21Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:21Speaker 05

  I think that the gap between where a lot of men exist and being able to tell another man how you're feeling is pretty deep.

• 1:50:29Ed Zitron?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something simple.

• 1:50:30Speaker 07

  It's hard to do.

• 1:50:31Ed Zitron?

  If you really can't email me, easy at better offline dot com. I'm not fucking kidding. Signal me easy tron dot seventy six. If you really want to talk about your emotions and you're too scared because your cowardly male friends are not in touch with their things, do it. I don't care. You cry. I cry. I cry when I fucking need to. I'm fucking sick. You solve this by facing the problem by doing stuff.

• 1:50:50Speaker 05

  Yes, you solve this by walking through it.

• 1:50:51Ed Zitron?

  I have had weight issues and honestly, you helped me Ben turn weightlifting into, I lift light now. I lift volume. It's about completing things. It's about building something rather than thrashing my fucking body.

• 1:51:02Speaker 07

  But I think we need to, I think we have to start by recognizing that it is difficult for men for some reason that we could get into. Me and one of my best friends, I've known him for twenty years. I see him twice a week at minimum. We're both in therapy. We're progressive guys. We care about our emotions. He, number of years ago, seven years or so, got divorced. Didn't tell me for a year.

• 1:51:26Ed Zitron?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:51:27Speaker 07

  Like, we were on a hike and he was finally like, I want to let you know, like, um, me and her are separated. And I was like, yeah, man, I haven't seen her around.

• 1:51:34Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Speaker 07

  I know, but we didn't talk about it. Then I, I went through a big breakup like a year and a half ago and he's had to come to me and occasionally go like, hey, man, how are you doing? You know, like, we haven't talked lately and, and we, everything, for some reason, we have to remind each other and we do it less than we should.

• 1:51:52Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, you're right. I, I think I get that you need to remind.

• 1:51:55Speaker 05

  The solution there might be. Ask your friend a question that sounds simple.

• 1:52:03Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:03Speaker 05

  That and and this is not necessarily like, how do you tell your friends how you're feeling? This likely will open up a conversation, but like your friend saying, hey, how are you doing? Post breakup? Arguably, you it's it sounds like you had noticed that something had gone weird in his marriage. You hadn't seen his wife around for a long time, but it sounds like you didn't say like, how are things with you and the wife?

• 1:52:27Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, I didn't say anything to him either.

• 1:52:29Speaker 05

  So I so to me, it's like asking that question, even if that feels so like such a steep hill to climb. Like I've I've been in as a as a woman with feelings. I've been in conversations with my girlfriends, who I'm super, super close with, where I'm like, God, it is really fucking hard to be like, anyway, so how is your marriage doing? As it like that, that seems like um, it seems like if the answer is good, then I'm like opening suspicion into an area that I don't need to be opening suspicion into. If the marriage is bad, if she's not telling me, there must be a reason that she's not telling me. But the answer is actually just, we are sort of all socialized to not reveal a lot of that information. And then women have been permitted to be like, we have been sort of saddled with the,

• 1:53:13Speaker 05

  they're emotional and they're dramatic, but what that the the light side of that is that we are permitted to express difficult things a little bit more easily and a little bit more publicly.

• 1:53:23Ed Zitron?

  We've just dropped you in the middle of this.

• 1:53:24Speaker 14

  This is great. I it's it's like you, you and I, I mean, I think men in general are, you know, we're supposed to be strong, physically strong, mentally strong, spiritually strong, all those things. You and I started talking not just about fitness, but when you were like, hey, I struggled with my weight.

• 1:53:40Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:40Speaker 14

  Like, I was able to say like, I struggled with my weight too. Like, yeah, this about 2009 or so, I lost about 70 pounds.

• 1:53:47Ed Zitron?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:53:47Speaker 14

  I was big. So I gave us a point.

• 1:53:49Speaker 05

  Which for you is like 1% of your body mass.

• 1:53:51Speaker 14

  Yeah, I weigh 700 pounds.

• 1:53:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:53:53Ed Zitron?

  But it's all muscle.

• 1:53:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:53:55Speaker 14

  More more now than he used to be. Um, but that gave us an opportunity to like to talk over that.

• 1:54:01Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:02Speaker 14

  And that was like something that we could bond over and something we could, you know, you're not the only person who's ever dealt with.

• 1:54:06Ed Zitron?

  And a richness that we could compare.

• 1:54:08Speaker 14

  And like, I still always feel like the fat kid.

• 1:54:10Ed Zitron?

  I was saying, absolutely. And I feel fat all the time. I feel fat right now. And it's weird.

• 1:54:15Speaker 14

  Right. And I, I always do. And it's always like weighs on me because I was a heavy kid and through my twenties and I didn't really turn it around until I was about 30 years old. And once you figure that out, you find out that other people have gone through the same thing, then all of a sudden you can have a very different conversation about it. And it's not about lifting to go win the Mr. Olympia and it's not about trying to set a bench press record. It's really just about like, you know, trying to build yourself up as much physically as it is mentally and other people are trying to, you're just trying to get through the day.

• 1:54:43Ed Zitron?

  And also, I will say, in my experience, pushing a little further on guys being like, are you really okay? It's all right. A lot of guys will open up and be like, I'm not. And you have a nice conversation and you're worried. And I mean, the feminization of emotion is disgusting because it's like, oh my God, the amount of times I've cried with my male friends and vice versa, and it's felt so much fucking bad. Oh, and I've cried in front of you, Klein. I've cried my.

• 1:55:07Speaker 05

  Close to how we met.

• 1:55:08Ed Zitron?

  It was like two days later. But it's great and it's good. And it's just, it's really easy to find other stopgaps. And I want to be clear, like, these companies are taking advantage of that. They're not, because I wanted to say this last episode as well. It's like, the reason that there is a loneliness epidemic is there are no third spaces, there are fewer walkable cities, and the social networking tools no longer, that is such a fucking like Dennis Leary style, the social networking tools don't let you socialize. But really though, you can't have a chronological feed of the people you want to fucking follow on most platforms. There's obstructions between it. There's like random platforms just become racist.

• 1:55:46Speaker 14

  They're not designed to get people into physical space, with the exception of dating apps, which are.

• 1:55:51Ed Zitron?

  But even then?

• 1:55:52Speaker 14

  Like, yeah, true. And those are all fucked up and gamified. But like, you know, what was the name of the site from like the late 90s or like meetup.com or dot org?

• 1:56:00Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, me. I think they're still around.

• 1:56:02Speaker 14

  Uh, maybe. It was literally designed to, it was like sort of pre-Facebook, designed to be find stuff to do in real life.

• 1:56:11Speaker 05

  Meetups. Yeah. Um, meetups are still around, like that as a branded name.

• 1:56:15Speaker 14

  Okay. Well, that is not the focus of most social networking tools. In the early days, there were a lot that were like, hey, let's get people to meet up in the real world. And now that's the last thing Facebook wants you to do.

• 1:56:24Ed Zitron?

  Yes. And it's just. There are ways that this could be fixed. I don't, I'm, I'm not an inventor, but I don't know. The problem being that men don't wanna talk. That's not something, that's an analog problem.

• 1:56:37Speaker 05

  Yes, I'm just saying like the pres-

• 1:56:39Ed Zitron?

  Oh, no, I'm agreeing, I'm agreeing.

• 1:56:40Speaker 05

  A tangible prescription can be ask your male friend a question, any question.

• 1:56:44Ed Zitron?

  Any question, yeah. And also ask, ask your girlfriend as well, if you have one, more questions.

• 1:56:51Speaker 05

  Ask anyone in your life a question.

• 1:56:53Ed Zitron?

  And actually-

• 1:56:54Speaker 05

  They will love it.

• 1:56:55Ed Zitron?

  Well, I, I, really.

• 1:56:57Speaker 07

  All I wanna add to this is I think it needs to start with a recognition that like, in the same way that when I started working out, I was like, oh yeah, everything in my life has been telling me to sit on my ass and I have to like, make an effort to do it, right? Although that's even, but it was a little bit easier because yes, men are supposed to be strong, right? Um, everything in men's lives are sort of telling them not to open up. It is like a barrier.

• 1:57:19Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, defensive almost.

• 1:57:20Speaker 07

  And like, you have to like, treat it as like, this is not gonna be super easy. Like, I have to,

• 1:57:25Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 1:57:25Speaker 07

  you know, I have to like pry it out of myself and out of my male friend, which is why like, you know, again, my friend to me was like, we need to talk, it's been a while.

• 1:57:34Speaker 05

  Which is exactly why, why I'm saying-

• 1:57:36Ed Zitron?

  And it's, I'm glad they did.

• 1:57:37Speaker 05

  And, and that's exactly why I'm trying to point out the gulf between somebody listening to this and going, I feel isolated, and the, the other side of that crevasse of like, just tell, talk about your feelings. And that, that I do think that there's like, an easy concrete-

• 1:57:51Speaker 14

  You're intentionally opting into something hard.

• 1:57:54Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 1:57:54Speaker 14

  Right? Like that's, I mean, and it's, it's, we are, you know, not to get too metaphysical, but like, we're nothing if there are not challenges for us to-

• 1:58:00Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:01Speaker 14

  Attack and to overcome.

• 1:58:01Ed Zitron?

  And doing hard things can be rewarding.

• 1:58:03Speaker 14

  Exactly right. And like, it is no harder to learn how to bench press than it is to talk about your feelings. Those are both hard.

• 1:58:09Ed Zitron?

  And with fitness as well, I had to like, push past the thing of like, I have to be strong. It was this incredibly negative relationship I had with my body, cause I was a fat person that didn't, I was a fat sedentary piece of shit. Until I got past that, I could not have a body I liked. Until it was about building something and recognizing weakness and the fragility of one's body, but also the fact that- Going about it and beating the shit out of yourself to become strong is unsustainable because it just means that every like a good thing, a powerful thing, a progressive thing is inherently progressive. You were just hurting yourself. And where is the endpoint of that? How are you gonna go, oh, I've reached a good point. It's just you're a piece of shit if you fall below this level. And I fucking thought with that.

• 1:58:50Speaker 14

  Yeah, and there's, I mean, especially when it comes out, like the body dysmorphia stuff never stops, right? I mean, there's like, there's memes and jokes about it. Like, I've been, I've been bodybuilding for five years. Like, when does the body dysmorphia stop? Like, oh, it doesn't, right? It's like, you're just getting started, man. Like, you uh, you see the guys even, not that I would ever advocate for this, but like the guys who are like, the pro bodybuilders, they'll win shows. And they'll be like, what are you doing? I mean, it's very famous, like Jay Cutler, who won Mr. Olympia four times. They interviewed him after he won. And he was, they were like, what are you gonna do to celebrate? He's like, I gotta go to bed early because I got cardio in the morning. And it's like, you just won like, you know, the World Series of Bodybuilding. And he's not taking a day off because he was so wrapped into it and so like, deep into it that it was just like, it's all he could think about. And like, you know.

• 1:59:34Speaker 05

  And, and again, not to be a woman about this.

• 1:59:37Ed Zitron?

  Please be a woman about it.

• 1:59:39Speaker 05

  I just want to state for the record that I, I love, I am so glad that men are talking about body dysmorphia and the way that body dysmorphia shows up in women is so, uh, much more socially connected with our value. Like, that, that like, I do, I do not, I, I want to be like, I totally get it. I, I do totally get it. And I get it, I think probably more than you might think I do.

• 2:00:11Speaker 05

  And then just a quick shout out for the girls that like, then it is connected to the women are there to be consumed. That like, the, the, the, the extra layer of value when we feel body dysmorphia.

• 2:00:26Ed Zitron?

  It gets back to the wife tube thing, which I'm liking saying that phrase, I guess. Uh, where it's like, yeah, it's not a. overweight woman, it's not a man, it's a sexualized presentation of the idealistic woman for the certain customer of this thing, because I I am not a woman, I experience body dysmorphia every day, but I'm not like me being overweight is not the thing that precluded me from being happy, it was how I felt about myself, to be clear, I need I like, I want to feel better about myself, but my value as a man is not directly affected in the same way.

• 2:00:59Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly, exactly, that's so I

• 2:01:00Ed Zitron?

  When I was fat, it was not keeping me from job opportunities.

• 2:01:03Speaker 05

  Exactly, that's what it is, it's that it's that like, I think probably the emotional experience of body dysmorphia is is very, very similar in women and men, and and even the like, men are supposed to be strong, and so like, there is a social value associated with that, but it is that when men fall outside of what we consider the classically attractive bounds, uh, the way that their lives are negatively impacted tend to be a much more minimal negative impacts than the way that women's lives are impacted when they fall outside of the bounds of

• 2:01:34Ed Zitron?

  I I would say, when I was very, I was like 350 pounds, there was definitely a level of like, respect I didn't get, but it was not like, it wasn't to the level where women are just fucking completely excluded if they do not look like the heteronormative idea of what a woman should look like, a certain level of thinness and attractiveness and makeup and all of these, yeah, it's very, it's very different.

• 2:01:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, or it's just like a whole nother fun

• 2:01:59Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, you get you get like several more layers of

• 2:02:02Speaker 07

  I mean, look at the, look at the people at this conference and look at the, you know, there's people who are, uh, there's, there's men walking around who are not fitting conventional, conventional notions of what an attractive man is, and they're powerful, successful men at this conference, and I think you'd have a hard time finding women are in the same position, right, um, that like, we're talking about all the other dimensions of, you know, uh, uh, of of the social value and and status, like, it's so much more connected for women, absolutely.

• 2:02:30Ed Zitron?

  And everything goes with woman as well as like weight loss and thinness and certain presentations and men, it's about a certain level of bigness and the metrics are even different, it's just, it's, I'm glad we're talking about this on the show, because I know we probably have more men listening than we do women, I hope, like, I would love that not to be the case, but it's about technology, what do you fucking think, and it's just like, It sucks because, yeah, they're a lonely man, but it's like, yeah, sadly, you bring this shit to a woman before you fix it, you're now her problem. She needs the key and you're gonna have many of these things about your body that you transfer onto her. You'll judge her the same way you judge yourself until you can get past that. Even the internalized sexual, uh, the sexism of like how a man and a woman is meant to feel.

• 2:03:15Ed Zitron?

  When I was, when I was heavy, like I had to go through a lot of things of just like, no one needs to look a certain fucking way at all. Like, I might need to be thin for myself, that might be what I need to aspire to, but that's no one else's fucking job. No one has to look a certain way for me or for them, like, only for themselves. And it, it sucks. I, I, the more I think about these fucking wife tubes, as funny as it's to say, the more like angry I get. Cause it's just like reinforcing gender stereotypes, but also adding a new layer of like woman prison.

• 2:03:45Speaker 05

  I mean, it's, it's like, it's, it's fantasy subjugation.

• 2:03:47Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 2:03:48Speaker 07

  Well, and it's, it's a, a technological fake solution to a real social problem. That is like preying on both the customers and the women who are being represented.

• 2:04:03Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, there's this tube where you had like an anime wife you could talk to. I probably should have.

• 2:04:06Speaker 07

  Multiple products.

• 2:04:07Speaker 14

  I, I distilled it from the conversation. Yeah. Um, yeah, that sounds like a terrible idea.

• 2:04:13Ed Zitron?

  It's, it's a really good Band-Aid on a multitude of problems because I, I maintain, you wanna, you wanna actually genuinely go talk to a priest. Like, I don't mean, even if you're not religious, you just fucking good. Maybe you need some spirituality in your life. Maybe you need more than just how you look or how you feel and trapped in your own head. They'll talk to you. Every priest will talk to you all fucking day. You don't need to be religious. I'm not even joking. Like the monk, the, the, um, Dominican monk, Fri Gabriel, he's sadly not here. Father Gabriel, pardon me. He, I've talked to him for hours. I'm not religious at all. I'm like agnostic. Who fucking knows? But it's like. The problem is if you talk about your problems, then you have to recognize your role in them and how they make you feel. And when you've never done that, this is the sympathy I'll give, it hurts.

• 2:04:58Speaker 05

  It's well, there's when you've never done that. And also, when the technology that is in our world is so, is so effective at like pressing the immediate dopamine button.

• 2:05:10Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:11Speaker 05

  Or right, that we are presented with a drug that is more instant and more powerful and more replicable than ever in human history.

• 2:05:19Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:19Speaker 05

  And so why would you do something that feels bad when you can just do something that feels good right away, even if it feels bad on a long scale term, long term scale? And you sort of know, understand that inherently, yeah, but you can still just do the drug again. You can just press the button again. You can just feel better again. And why wouldn't you? Of course.

• 2:05:34Ed Zitron?

  Chinese peptides, like it really does connect though. No, but we were talking about these Chinese peptides yesterday. It's like, yeah, a quick and easy solution. To be clear, you use GLP one from a doctor, brilliant. However, your weight loss journey happens, if that's what you need, brilliant. Sadly, and Ben and I can tell you, you can lose all the weight, but you're still going to feel bad about yourself until you solve that. Until you find a way to carve out your own self, you're going to be, you're going to be in trouble. And I say this to someone who has been in trouble, who has taken years to build the internal and external me that I wanted. And it's like, all these fitness things, they, they don't even really try that as well. I think Victor Raisons made the point multiple times that these, these numbers, the useless numbers we were talking about.

• 2:06:14Speaker 05

  I said that my, my theme for CES is numbers you don't need.

• 2:06:19Speaker 14

  It's just like, there's no substitute for the work.

• 2:06:22Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:06:22Speaker 14

  Right? I mean, like, that's it. There's no substitute.

• 2:06:24Speaker 05

  But everybody's like, but is this a substitute for the work?

• 2:06:27Speaker 14

  Exactly. Like, we've been trying this for.

• 2:06:29Speaker 05

  CES 2026, but is this a substitute for the work?

• 2:06:31Speaker 14

  There's a great, there's a great, I think you and I have talked about it before. Henry Rollins wrote a great article called The Iron.

• 2:06:37Ed Zitron?

  The Iron and Soul. Yes.

• 2:06:38Speaker 14

  The Iron and Soul.

• 2:06:38Ed Zitron?

  Amazing article.

• 2:06:39Speaker 14

  Where he talks about the iron never lies. At the end of the day, like, forget the, I'm going to butcher the quote, but he wraps it up by being like, you can be the biggest guy in the room with the smallest guy in the room. You can have the, the best body or the worst body. You could just gotten married or just gotten dumped, you know, you fired from your job, promoted. At the end of the day, man, the 200 pounds is still 200 pounds. You either lifted or you don't like it. It's the, the work is there to be done.

• 2:07:02Ed Zitron?

  You change, but the iron stays the same.

• 2:07:04Speaker 14

  Same, like the process of lifting heavier or eating better or whatever is like the hard is what makes it good. It's not just about the aesthetics or about how much weight you can push. It's about the, the process that you go through. You know, and those GLP ones, like in other peptides, like they are miracle drugs.

• 2:07:22Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:22Speaker 14

  They are, they are miracle drugs. And I know lots of people who have gone on them and the people who are successful are the people who go on them. And then also lift the weights and also do the cardio.

• 2:07:32Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:33Speaker 14

  Also eat better. The people who just take them and then kind of like deflate because they're not doing anything have horrible metabolic problems. Because they took the shortcut and you get the, you get the results of the shortcut.

• 2:07:45Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:07:45Ed Zitron?

  And you feel still miserable about, and they say this is, I've lost, I was 350 pounds. I dropped to 130 pounds when I was 19. I then went back up to 260, something by the end of my, like the midpoint of my thirties and maybe a buck 65 now. That last part was the first time it stayed. Like I've stayed consistently this way, not because I've stayed consistent with my fitness. I've been off for the last few months, but because I've been more focused on what good feels like than I have on, am I fucking pushing, banishing, beating the fuck? I remember texting my friend, Tachana, friend of the show, Tachana. Yeah, my arms feel like they're full of broken glass and I was happy. And she was like, I don't think that's what that's meant to feel like. And I was like, yes, it is. I'm good.

• 2:08:30Ed Zitron?

  She, it wasn't a good, it's not long before I started talking to you, Ben.

• 2:08:34Speaker 14

  Yep.

• 2:08:34Ed Zitron?

  And I think it's just like, it's really easy to fucking hate yourself for, for bad reasons. And then also not really be criti- critical of yourself for the, the good ones, such as I'm fucking up my body repeatedly so that I can be sexy for a woman.

• 2:08:49Speaker 05

  And I want to add another, a corollary to, it's really easy to hate yourself. Yes. Also, it is really easy to justify a fairly nihilist point of view.

• 2:09:01Ed Zitron?

  Go on.

• 2:09:01Speaker 05

  I think now more than ever. I think it's very easy to be like, nothing matters and we're all going to die. And so why am I, why would I try?

• 2:09:09Ed Zitron?

  Why would I even try?

• 2:09:09Speaker 05

  Or like, the world is so fucked up and obviously there's no, uh, like to, to keep, to rationalize, to justify.

• 2:09:19Speaker 05

  Whatever your repeated choices are, and I'm talking to myself more than anybody. Like I have, I have a million of these routes and that I get myself into. And I think it's very, very easy to justify self-destructive choices, particularly the mildly self-destructive choices, the ones that aren't like driving, causing you to drive your car into a tree at the end of the night.

• 2:09:40Speaker 14

  What's, what are the minor ones?

• 2:09:42Speaker 05

  Oh, just like eat, like justifying, promising yourself that you'll eat better and then not, even if it's not to a crazy degree, but it's to a degree that keeps you unhealthy in a way. Or like, you know, it's like, if you're not getting blackout drunk every week, but you're like, I, when I drink, I wake up the next morning and I feel anxious in a way that cripples me for the whole next day.

• 2:10:03Speaker 14

  Right.

• 2:10:04Speaker 05

  But I'm just gonna have another drink. I'm just gonna have one more drink with my friends tomorrow night or whatever. And it's, and again, like this, these are things that I do. These are, this is my own life. This is, nobody saw, Adam just dropped.

• 2:10:16Speaker 14

  The nihilism thing, I mean, like my favorite gym T-shirt that I lift in all the time is like the counterpoint to that. And it says like, we're all gonna die, might as well get strong.

• 2:10:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:10:25Speaker 14

  Like, I think, is it Pascal's wager? Isn't it Pascal's wager? Right. It's like, it's like that, but for life choices. Yeah. Pascal's wager.

• 2:10:32Ed Zitron?

  You can act as if God exists.

• 2:10:33Speaker 14

  Exactly. Like you might as well act as if God exists because even if he does not exist, living in a moral way.

• 2:10:40Speaker 05

  I totally agree. I'm just saying, I'm saying like, I think a lot of people easily fall into a justification where it's not even that they like, I, I think that there's people listening to this who wouldn't say, I hate myself. Who would just say, everything is so bleak.

• 2:10:54Ed Zitron?

  Who gives a fuck?

• 2:10:54Speaker 14

  It doesn't matter.

• 2:10:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:10:56Speaker 14

  Yeah.

• 2:10:56Ed Zitron?

  And the thing is.

• 2:10:57Speaker 05

  Or, or my, my jadedness is correct. Not even it doesn't matter, stuff where they're like, it could matter, but like, look at, I, I, I, I think people, people rationalize.

• 2:11:08Ed Zitron?

  I also think it's really easy for guys to, in particular, oh no, I take that back. It's not true. Women do this kind of self-harm as well. And where it's like for the beauty standards of both woman and men where it's I need to hurt. The pain is necessary. No pain, no gain. Actually, pain is not brilliant. And with with woman, it can often be. I mean, they do the same thing with fitness, but like dietary stuff with women is much harsher. It's like the ways we punish ourselves and they usually fail. Like, I am generally not in pain. When I, after I work out, I feel worked, but I feel good. And it's like, that's the thing to look for.

• 2:11:46Ed Zitron?

  But it's really easy because you go on Instagram, especially if you like start talking about fitness in a DM and Instagram's like, oh, we're not looking, but it looks like you need some peptides. And you can get this fucking pressure of these guys who are just fu- they're younger than you, stronger than you. They've gone through crazier journeys. They've lost more weight. They've done this. It's really easy for guys to pretend like this doesn't happen. You don't look at another guy's body and you feel in inferior. It fucking happens. And you're like, if I look like that, I'll feel better. It probably won't, mate. Yeah. And woman, woman talk about this publicly all the time. Men don't want to because it's fucking gay. They're like, it's gay. Oh, you fucking. Good Lord, the worst thing that could happen to you is that you're gay. Jesus Christ, that sounds fu- like, who gives a shit? You're in love with a man. It sounds nice.

• 2:12:31Ed Zitron?

  You're in love with a woman who gives a fuck. But it's like this feminization of anything, any kind of pain and emotion. Men are just fucking strong. Go to WifeTube. WifeTube will talk to me. I'll lift a million pounds. I don't know. It's nice to have a conversation like this in a scenario like this as well, a very male dominated space, male dominated industry. And it's also scary for men to think about this stuff. And it's much easier to blame everyone else. Other men too.

• 2:12:58Speaker 14

  That being said, I am going to try and lift a million pounds this year.

• 2:13:01Ed Zitron?

  No, but you do it because it's.

• 2:13:02Speaker 14

  A million pounds of volume. That's the goal.

• 2:13:04Ed Zitron?

  No, but that's fucking, you're doing that because, no, but you're doing it for fun.

• 2:13:09Speaker 14

  I'm doing it for fun and because like it is, it is, it is a therapeutic thing for me. Like the joke of, you know, lift heavy rocks.

• 2:13:14Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:15Speaker 14

  Right. But it's like, it's, it's true. It is a, it is a great physical thing. It's a great mental thing. It's good for my marriage. Right? Like I'm a better husband. I'm a better father. I'm better professionally because I'm able to focus and put.

• 2:13:28Ed Zitron?

  You're energetic and you've.

• 2:13:29Speaker 14

  Energetic. Yeah, exactly.

• 2:13:30Ed Zitron?

  And you build something versus.

• 2:13:32Speaker 14

  You can see the results.

• 2:13:33Ed Zitron?

  Patching over something.

• 2:13:34Speaker 14

  Exactly right.

• 2:13:35Ed Zitron?

  So glad we're talking.

• 2:13:36Speaker 14

  Foundational building.

• 2:13:37Speaker 07

  Adam, what do you think about all this? You've been quiet this whole time. Oh, yeah. We've been podcasting for two hours. I'm a little tired. Uh, yeah, no, I, I mean, I think that, uh, it's just the trip that I'm on is like, I do think that we underrate, uh, how much society, like all of us together as a society push men down the wrong path on this stuff. And I think at the same time as we are saying, like, you know, men need to step up and like, change their attitudes. I also think we need to like, create space for other men.

• 2:14:16Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 2:14:17Speaker 07

  To do these things.

• 2:14:17Ed Zitron?

  That's actually what I'm trying to intentionally do.

• 2:14:19Speaker 07

  And men and women need to do this. Men need to do it, I think.

• 2:14:22Ed Zitron?

  With each other.

• 2:14:23Speaker 07

  For each other. Um, but, uh, it is like, you know, a, uh, and I think the thing that, cause there's so many elements of this, you can talk about sexism and patriarchy and stuff affects men and women, and you can almost always go, it affects women worse. It's true, right?

• 2:14:39Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:40Speaker 07

  The, but a deficiency that I think that the reason I'm glad we're having this conversation is I think a deficient deficiency, at least I think that's unequivocally true, is that men talk about it less. I, I grew up watching just, just the evolving conversation about sexism directed towards women for my entire life and like processing it. Oh, we're, we're developing how we're thinking about this. We're trying to address this. This product also exists, but we're, and like, we just, we, we have never had it for men.

• 2:15:09Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:09Speaker 07

  On a, on a cultural level. And when we try, a lot of times people go, you know, like, eh, why, you know? I talk about this on stage sometimes and, and you know, people come up to, uh, a woman came up to me and says like, oh, it's kinda, it's kinda like, oh, won't somebody think of the men? And I'm like, yeah, kinda, it is kind of won't somebody think of me?

• 2:15:25Ed Zitron?

  But the thing is, I get what she is saying in the, it's very, very easy to fall into the trouble of like, oh, poor men. But it's like, the actual solution is you can say that, but only if the answer is talking to other guys, not like, and that's where women come in. And that's how having sex. And by the way, I will just say, that will not solve your image issues. That will not do it. It's a fucking Band-Aid too.

• 2:15:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, Adam, to, to your, thinking about what you were just saying, I think that the solution to. Uh, there's, I don't know that there's like a way to really solve gender dynamics, you know, to snap my fingers, but like, but.

• 2:16:08Speaker 14

  We've got 15 minutes left.

• 2:16:09Ed Zitron?

  We've actually only got five.

• 2:16:11Speaker 05

  But I, you know, if I were there listening to the woman say, uh, it's kind of a think of the men and your answer is, yeah, it is think of the men. That's because the only way that we make any progress is with empathy and kindness.

• 2:16:25Ed Zitron?

  Yes.

• 2:16:26Speaker 05

  To the people, uh, to every player involved in this, in the scenario.

• 2:16:31Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:32Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:16:32Ed Zitron?

  And it's, but empathy.

• 2:16:33Speaker 05

  And that means men.

• 2:16:34Ed Zitron?

  Empathy requires introspection. Sorry, I didn't mean to talk.

• 2:16:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, totally.

• 2:16:38Ed Zitron?

  And on that point, I'm going to end this two hour long episode.

• 2:16:41Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 2:16:42Ed Zitron?

  Ben Rudolph, where can we find you?

• 2:16:44Speaker 14

  Uh, I'm on X, the everything app.

• 2:16:46Ed Zitron?

  Oh, nice.

• 2:16:47Speaker 14

  It's Ben the PC guy.

• 2:16:48Ed Zitron?

  It's my wonderful friend.

• 2:16:49Speaker 14

  Um, or you can go to cartographic.com, that's C A R T O G R A F I Q dot com, because we wanted to make it super hard to spell.

• 2:16:58Ed Zitron?

  Nice.

• 2:16:58Speaker 07

  Ben, can I just ask Ben a question? Did you see one cool thing at CES? We've been talking shit on tech products and, uh, men generally. Is there anything that you were excited about?

• 2:17:11Speaker 14

  So I haven't spent that much time around the floor. I've been working with my clients. I think there's finally some, I mean, we could do another two hours. Should we get in, should we get into like the transition from AI hype to like what you can actually do with it that actually matters? I have seen some stuff that I think is interesting and fun. I haven't seen anything that I'm like, wow, that's going to change my life. Like, there's a lot of like autonomous, uh, like scooters and.

• 2:17:37Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:38Speaker 14

  And stuff like that that seem interesting, but I don't know.

• 2:17:41Speaker 07

  Well, that's all I want to know.

• 2:17:43Ed Zitron?

  Thank you. Adam, why don't you do your callouts to where you're going to be doing stand up?

• 2:17:46Speaker 07

  Oh, okay. This weekend, uh, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be in Madison, Wisconsin. Uh, next weekend I'll be in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Then I'm going to Louisville, Kentucky at the end of January. Then in early February, I'll be in Houston, Texas. And then I'm taping my new special at the Punchline in San Francisco, February 19th through 21st, adamconover.net for tickets.

• 2:18:05Ed Zitron?

  Hell, yeah. Chloe?

• 2:18:06Speaker 05

  I, this weekend I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio. Uh, next weekend I am in, uh, Washington DC. The week after that, not the weekend, January 20th, 21st and 22nd, I'm doing my solo show called Cheat, which is a completely separate hour.

• 2:18:20Ed Zitron?

  It rocks.

• 2:18:21Speaker 05

  It's not the hour of standup that I do on the road. Ed has seen it and loved it. In Philadelphia, cheat in Philadelphia, January 2021, 22, and then the weekend after that, or then two weekends after that, I'll be in Vermont at the end of.

• 2:18:32Ed Zitron?

  And as we end this show, big shout out to the departed past last year, Sean Paul Adams, friend of the show, friend, friend of the suite. Please donate to the Pediatric Epilepsy Research Consortium in honor of his son, who is epileptic. His family would deeply appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. We've got another two hours for you coming soon.

• 2:18:59Ed Zitron?

  Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at mattosowski.com. M A T T O S O W S K I dot com. You can email me at [email protected] or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot where's your ed dot at to visit the discord and go to r slash better offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

• 2:19:31Speaker 15

  Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:20:03Speaker 00

  Empower is all about helping you invest well, so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 2:20:34Speaker 08

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:21:05Speaker 16

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 2:21:18Speaker 17

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 2:22:01Speaker 17

  This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:22:05Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.