Pod Insights Betrayal The Making of Season 5 | BONUS About this episode The Betrayal team takes you behind the scenes of Season 5 – unpacking how Saskia’s story came to be, and all the memorable moments along the way.
If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/.
Follow our newsletter and join the Betrayal community at betrayal.substack.com. https://betrayal.substack.com/welcome For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal.
You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition, and many counties also have resources available.
If you’re looking for help, go onto your county’s website to see what resources are available locally, or search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition.
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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1:16 Speaker 00 with everything, from applying and financial aid, to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/Betrayal. That's SNHU.edu/Betrayal.
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3:44 Speaker 00 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal. Today, we have another bonus episode. Now that season five is over, I wanted to get the whole team together, our producers, our editors, to talk about how the season came to be and all of the moments that stuck with us along the way. Here's our conversation. Hi, everybody. Hi. Hi. We did this last Year where after we released season four, we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments, what it was like producing the season. And I thought that it would be kind of fun to do it again. Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone introduce themselves and tell a little bit about how you worked on the show.
4:29 Speaker 06 Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Caitlin Golden and I helped to produce this season. Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman, also a producer.
4:38 Speaker 00 I'm Monique LaBord. I'm the story editor on the last two seasons of Betrayal.
4:43 Speaker 01 I'm Matt Del Vicchio. I am a sound engineer on Betrayal. And I'm Tanner Robbins. I am one of the audio editors.
4:54 Speaker 00 I think a really great place to start is how we found the story in the first place. I think this question goes to Caitlin. Can you tell us a little bit about how this season and how Saskia's story came to be?
5:08 Speaker 06 Yeah, I started at Glass about two years ago as an associate producer when Carrie and Mo were running production on Betrayal. And one of my big jobs was going through the email inbox where people, you know, write in with their thoughts about the show, but also kind of most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of betrayal.
5:32 Speaker 00 So Saskia, she sent an email September 2024, which is the same month that Gisele Pellicco went to trial for the rape case of her husband. I actually pulled up her initial email. I want to read it. It's pretty short. She said, Hello, I live in Maryland and I was married to, hold for it, the man of my dreams. Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up, he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious night after night and broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale in between being the perfect husband. Husband, father and stepfather. Things only got worse when I found out what he was doing and we went through a legal battle. Quote raping your wife and quote apparently was not a crime in Maryland.
6:14 Speaker 00 So we had to have police contact tech experts in these camming websites to get the footage for court. I would really like to tell my story. I can so relate to these women that I am watching on your show. Let me know if someone can contact me. I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji. Thank you, Saskia. So yeah, it's taken a year and a half to get here where the story is officially out and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort.
6:39 Speaker 06 Dre, I'm curious, when you go back to the moment that you were like, this needs to be a season as opposed to a single episode. Is there something that stands out for you? A scene in your mind where you first really remember connecting to the story?
6:56 Speaker 00 I think for me, the fact that he could watch this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy, feel like she is just now destined to walk the same path as her father who struggled with mental health. And to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just so cruel. To me, that's why I thought this was a really good season. Like the two things that were happening, light of day and in the darkness.
7:40 Speaker 00 One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors. They're acting out the part of a loving husband or a great stepfather, but they're really actors. And once you accept and understand that, it's easier to see that all of it, it's like a giant fraud. Yeah. The other aspect of the story that I just was like, from an emotional point of view, I think I've
8:19 Speaker 00 Always really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim because I feel like
8:28 Speaker 00 we just really default to this understanding of righteous rape. That the only person that's worthy of saying, I had this crime of rape done to me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the street and this happened. Saskia's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her. And so it allowed us to really examine that myth in a really big way, not just through the criminal trial, but really the divorce trial. So for that reason, I feel like that's why I really wanted to make this season.
9:06 Speaker 06 Totally.
9:07 Speaker 00 What about you?
9:09 Speaker 06 I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the story. And then all of a sudden she gets to the point in her story where he only gets 18 months in jail. And she says, this was completely legal in my state. And I was like, wait, what? How in the world?
9:25 Speaker 01 I think that was the thing that surprised me and shocked me the most this season was the fact that that law was on the books at the time was just, it really hit me a little bit because like, I don't understand how that could even be.
9:41 Speaker 00 Tanner, you knew nothing going into this season about the story and the creative. You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin and learning as you go. Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode when it's ready to go into the edit. Can you tell me what it was like working on this season? What moment most surprised you? And what do you feel like was the most impactful? What shocked me maybe the most in the story was a quote from the perpetrator, Mike. I think it was during the divorce trial that he didn't believe in his heart.
10:23 Speaker 06 That he raped her. Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing if he was not raping her? What did he think that was? That was what was most shocking to me, even after admitting to committing this crime, then go to a different court and say the exact opposite.
10:50 Speaker 00 There is an entitlement there that exists in our society. Whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland, he already felt entitled to her body in a way, however he wanted it. And then there are laws that exist in the state in which he lives with his wife that embolden and validate that entitlement. Those two things, I think, have been interconnected and working for each other since the creation of this country. That goes kind of hand in hand to the most impactful thing is that this case and other cases that have come up recently have helped change these laws.
11:34 Speaker 00 And these laws are changing. And I think it's good to see that lawmakers, at least, are waking up to some of this.
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12:24 Speaker 02 Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.
12:40 Speaker 03 Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains Trisepotide and should not be used with other Trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.
13:26 Speaker 03 Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.
13:47 Speaker 02 Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.
13:55 Speaker 00 You know the saying, "Knowledge is power"? Well, it's a lot more than that. Knowledge can be growth, security, opportunity. And no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. That's why they offer over 200 online degree programs designed to help you reach your goals. Set yourself up for success, or get ready to pivot into something new. No matter your program, you'll learn practical, career-focused skills you can use on the job. And don't worry, getting your degree online doesn't mean doing it alone. Southern New Hampshire University has some of the best student support and online education. From day one to graduation, you'll have friendly, knowledgeable people to help you with everything, from applying and financial aid,
14:39 Speaker 00 to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/betrail. That's SNHU.edu/betrail.
14:54 Speaker 00 We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like? Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction. What can I do to repair, do less harm and own up to my mistakes? And when you look at how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands that they've done something wrong, understands the impact of their behavior and actions towards another person would say, you know what? No-fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you.
15:35 Speaker 00 Let me do as little harm in this process to Saskia. That would be the right thing to do. He did not do that. As much as it is to tell Saskia's story, we are in a way telling the Mike Lemongood story of what he did to his wife. And I'm a human being. I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild. But I also think about the fact of like, what has this person done to restore and help support Saskia?
16:05 Speaker 06 This is something Carrie and I have been talking about. So Carrie had produced seasons one through four. And when this season came around, Carrie actually stepped out to produce another show at Glass, Burden of Guilt. And that is a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it. The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make amends for something heinous that he did in his past. And that's something Carrie and I have been talking about here with season five of Betrayal, with Saskia's story. Because like, we don't set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to report the story. Survivors come to us, write to us, and we work with them. But if there was genuinely an effort that Mike Lemongood had made to...
16:48 Speaker 06 Acknowledge the harm he had done to make amends. You know, and he did plead guilty. Like, he had the opportunity to use that to make a statement to her, to not put her through the divorce trial, she did. And like you were saying, Andrea, like, he did not take those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc because it isn't there. And it's disappointing, honestly.
17:09 Speaker 00 I think the thing that makes this season different in terms of that amends and accountability piece is that we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to make an entire career off of his criminal past. And to me, the most shocking tape of the entire season comes at the end of episode nine, where you hear Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levingood. And I was in the room for that call, so I remember it very well. And Trey gets on the line, tells Mike that we want to tell this
17:49 Speaker 00 story about his business and about his relationship with Saskia Inwood. And the tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking. Like, you could tell he really did not see the connection between what he did to Saskia and what he is doing in his business now. It's like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward with his life. And that's a privilege that Saskia will never be afforded.
18:22 Speaker 01 I'm so curious, this goes to the editors. What is your favorite episode of the season and why? The courtroom, the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it happening in real time. And hearing the judge see through Mike's lies, you know, when you hear defense attorneys and witnesses saying all these things that you know are not true or are just being spun in this way. And then to hear the person with the power see through it and make the right decision is
19:04 Speaker 06 It's just so satisfying. Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do second a lot of what you said, Tanner. It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody who just thinks that he's flying pretty. It feels like a good moment whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually, you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me, too. Mm hmm. Yeah.
19:30 Speaker 00 And sometimes you can have all the evidence, the videos, the photos, and it still may not be enough. But in this case, the judge really saw, and I'm so grateful.
19:41 Speaker 06 Carrie, I was gonna ask you, you know, having worked on this show in every iteration of it, having worked with so many different subjects, what to you really resonated this season?
19:55 Speaker 00 I think we knew even before the Gisele Pelliko story came out, this kind of crime is a trend. It's underreported, and it's probably underreported because people are too shame-filled to report it.
20:11 Speaker 06 Yeah, and it's underprosecuted.
20:14 Speaker 00 I really feel good when we are bringing things to the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by a good portion of the public, because you never know when one of our audience members might be waking up in the morning unsure of what happened the night before or feeling odd. And it's just information and education that it's okay to question.
20:40 Speaker 06 Totally. And I mean, with the idea that this is a trend, for me, one of the most impactful parts of this season was talking to all of these other women who had experienced this crime. We did also include these stories of Natalie, Amber, and Stephanie, and watching the three of them in their progression and their healing journey has been really impactful, too. I mean, Dre and I talk all the time about Natalie in particular. She'd never heard of a story like her own until she heard Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal Weekly. And when I first got on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous.
21:21 Speaker 06 And over the course of many, many months, we had lots of conversations back and forth about, do you want to tell your story now? Is later down the line a better time?
21:30 Speaker 00 What level of anonymity do we want to use? She eventually felt comfortable. And when we had that roundtable conversation with all of these other survivors, it was like a different woman was in that room. Like, our hope as a show is always that the people that we're working with, we are able to impact their lives in some little way. That by helping them tell their story, we are helping them on their healing journey. But I think that was one of the first times where I, as someone who's really new to this field, saw right before my eyes, like, this is someone who's transformed. There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional.
22:13 Speaker 00 I mean, that's the thing, is realizing that you're not alone. I felt that way when I was listening to the bonus episode with the case updates. Yeah. And I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie at the very end. Spoilers if anyone hasn't listened to that bonus episode. It's an update on Amber, Natalie, and Stephanie. And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she was wearing baggy clothes. She had chopped off all of her hair. She couldn't even look in the mirror. And she's just now reclaiming her body. And that's the work that she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her two years ago,
22:55 Speaker 00 it's astonishing to see what she's done and the work that she's put in and how she came out on the other side. It's cool. It's really cool.
23:05 Speaker 06 When people ask, which they often do, "Oh, it must be so hard to work on stories like this." The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making. And to see that the telling of their story was helpful in that is actually more impactful for me in the end than the worst part of their story that we hear.
23:28 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm. Well, thank you all for your hard work this season. It was a difficult season to produce. It was an emotional one to produce. And, you know, we deal with really tough subject matter, but I'm really proud of the season and I'm proud of everyone's work on it. And so, thank you.
23:53 Speaker 00 Resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24/7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673, or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, or want to tell us your story, email us at [email protected] . That is [email protected] . Or follow us on Instagram, at BetrayalPod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack
24:38 Speaker 00 at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Kaitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique LaBord. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
25:20 Speaker 00 Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Lea Jablow. Production management by Kristin Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
26:05 Speaker 02 Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trzepatide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.
26:21 Speaker 03 Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains Trzepatide and should not be used with other Trzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.
27:06 Speaker 03 Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.
27:28 Speaker 02 Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.
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